Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 20:01, 15 February 2008

Welcome!

You can leave messages here for me.
Greg L 17:33, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Featured picture candidate

An animation uploaded by you has been promoted to featured picture status Your image, Image:Translational motion.gif, was nominated on Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates, gained a consensus of support, and has been promoted. If you would like to nominate an image, please do so at Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates. Thank you for your contribution! 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Greg,

Just to let you know that the Featured Picture Image:Translational_motion.gif is due to make an appearance as Picture of the Day on May 14, 2007. If you get a chance, you can check and improve the caption at Template:POTD/2007-05-14. howcheng {chat} 18:42, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Featured Picture Candidate

I nominated one of your animations (Image:Translational motion.gif) to be featured. See Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates/Translational Motion. —EdGl 02:05, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I wrote back on your personal discussion page. Greg L 20:45, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

(concerning your last post on my talk page) You should definitely speak out and state your case on the featured picture candidates page! —EdGl 21:27, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I left a note on Antilived's talk page concerning his vote, directing him to my talk page. —EdGl 01:36, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

There are two users who voted neutral but clearly like it and lean support, voting neutral only because of minor issues. In this case it's not really a bad thing, since there are a few support votes and no oppose votes. Only a few more days left. —EdGl 04:47, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

That's the way I see it. Thanks. Greg L 05:13, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Woohoo, the animation is now featured! →EdGl 00:26, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

It says on the picture-of-the-day page that "featured images are currently selected in the order they were promoted". So, it won't be on the main page in a while. They have already selected pics up to March 1st. →EdGl 01:00, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

• Of course, that's fine. I only picked Temperature because it was the first. Regards. Trebor 07:26, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Elastic Collisions

I've been meaning to ask you - in the animation, are the atoms experiencing elastic collisions or inelastic collisions? In the animation it looks elastic, but apparently they should be inelastic. Now, I know making the collisions inelastic would be a lot harder, it's just that as an AP Physics student I pick up on these things ;) →EdGl 16:18, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Very cool indeed! I think the inelastic collision article contradicts what you're saying, which is why I got confused there for a second. Maybe you can use your expertise to help along that article and any other relevant articles you may find. We can't have misinformation in an encyclopedia! →EdGl 16:59, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm talking about this sentence: "Collisions between molecules of a gas or liquid may also be inelastic as they cause changes in vibrational and rotational energy levels." Hmm, I guess this is something you wouldn't be able to see in your animation, since the Helium is represented by circles rather than "atomic shapes". I'm guessing the helium atoms you are representing in the animation are diatomic molecules rather than single atoms, am I right? It could be that you are envisioning atom-to-atom collisions while I am thinking about molecule-to-molecule ones. I'm assuming there's a difference (?). →EdGl 17:30, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

This diff shows it was User:Numsgil who added this information. I left a not on his talk page saying I'll remove the info from the article. I'm not going to add anything to the article, but if you see something that could be added, you should; it's a rather poor-quality article (except for the animation lol). Hey, maybe you could put your soon-to-be-featured animation into the elastic collision article? I think that's a great idea! →EdGl 18:26, 27 January 2007 (UTC) 

Kilogram

I edited your recent addition to the kilogram page and added a citation needed tag. I noticed that you labeled the source you got the information out of in the edit summary, but not in the article. Since I don't have that source, it would be great if you'd check and make sure I didn't introduce any errors in my edit, make sure that the information near the fact tag I added is all in the reference you were using, and add your new reference as a footnote. Thanks!Enuja 08:38, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

• Thanks so much! I'm a bit fan of the info you added; it's great to know what the prototype is made of and when it was made. I'm happy with the statement of ratification by the 1st CGPM; it doesn't read as repetitive any more. Enuja

Images

Sorry I didn't reply sooner - thanks for the offer, but I'm quite content with the images already on my page. They have amazing quality, by the way. :-) Mrug 21:10, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Image:Z-machine480.jpg listed for deletion

An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, Image:Z-machine480.jpg, has been listed at Misplaced Pages:Images and media for deletion. Please look there to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. — Rebelguys2 17:58, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

So, what was the result? They seem to have decided to delete it, please correct me if I'm wrong. Mrug 10:47, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

So How About That?

Your animation will be on the main page! I'm excited, and I'm sure you are too. Congratulations. →EdGl 23:22, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Sucralose

It has taken me a few days, but I've left a reply to your comments at Talk:Sucralose. Enjoy! --Ed (Edgar181) 20:37, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

HCP Close packing

Hello, I am an NYU student and an intern at the Mayo Clinic. For my computer program I need to create a lattice for a "closest packing" of same-size spheres. I was wondering if I could ask your help.

I have so far determined how to make each plane of my A-B-A-B-... HCP lattice but I dont know the z coordinates.

In otherwords I have the first plane, the balls that are resting on the z=0 plane, those balls all have their centers with a z coordinate of r, the radius. Then the balls are distributed correctly according to the HCP packing on the z=r plane. Then I have the next level on top of the first, those are all distributed according to A-B-A-B stacking but I don't know what the z coordinate is. It's clearly not z=2*r or z=3*r. So far my guess is z=r+SQRT(3)*r , but I have no geometric way to prove it.

Sorry if this was confusing. Thanks for any help. And thank you ginormously for your photos on the article. Mangledorf 21:39, 25 July 2007 (UTC) 

So, I have a new guess. If the next ball on top of three balls forms a tetrahedron then the difference should be the height of the terahedron ( SQRT(6) *(a/3) ) where a is the length of the side and the length is 2*r so the height of the sec ond row would be r+SQRT(6) *(2*r/3). Is this correct?

See my response here on your talk page. Greg L (my talk) 23:01, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the links, the one had exactly what I needed. Turns out it is a tetrahedron even if I had to get out the tennis balls to prove it to myself.Mangledorf 20:49, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

The formula is the height of the tetrahedron formed by the centers of four spheres. Imagine three balls on the ground in a triangle (this arrangement tessalates into the entire plane) then place on ball in the middle. This forms a normal tetrahedron who's height is SQRT(6) *(2*r/3), and that'll be the difference in the z-direction for each stack. It's much easier to prove it with actuall object than on paper, but it matched the first paper you mentioned. Mangledorf 16:43, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Mangledorf: I can confirm that your formula must be the correct one. I apparently forgot just how far I must have zoomed in with my CAD program when setting the z-axis but I managed to nail it amazingly close. The size of the balls in the Fig. 2 ray-tracing is Ø 10.16 mm (r = 5.08). Shown below is the results of your formula (top) and my CAD program (bottom):

8.295 605 262 225 696 492 561 47 mm
8.295 605 253

Are you going to add this formula to the Close packing article? Greg L (my talk) 17:12, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I would like to add it. When I have it totally straightened out and a good reference source made out, I will. Thanks for the back up. I was actually surprised it wasn't on the site to begin with, but that's what we're all here to do, eh? Mangledorf 20:32, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Greg L (my talk) 19:50, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Thermodynamic Definitions at T=0 in a vacuum

Thanks for the interesting question on my talk page. I haven't contributed to Misplaced Pages lately and my opinion is definitely not authoritative, but I try. I think most people in thermo define internal energy or enthalpy based on what they reasonably think will cause a significant change in the system they are studying.

Imagine a box with a shaft sticking out of it in a vacuum at around T=0 with the shaft poking out of the vacuum chamber somehow. Something in the box makes the shaft turn for a while, and that motion does useful work or generates heat outside of the vacuum chamber.

Maybe there's some Casimir effect gizmo in the box utilizing electromagnetic force due to changes in zero point energy. Or maybe there's a weight falling within the box utilizing gravity due to changes in height. Or maybe there's some radioactive material in the box. But the energy inside the box is decreasing while work is being done or heat is being generated outside.

That energy inside the box is thermodynamic internal energy at T=0 in a vacuum. See the table of intensive and extensive variables in section 1.3 in Alberty's http://www.iupac.org/publications/pac/2001/pdf/7308x1349.pdf and the equations in section 1.4. So the answer to your question is no. U does not have to exclude zero point energy. U should include ZPE if its inclusion will significantly alter the system under consideration. But there's no need to include it as an additional "tally" that just remains constant during a process. Flying Jazz 05:52, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I would not write At T=0, these crystals have minimal internal energy (retaining only that due to ZPE). I would either remove the word "only" or, better yet, remove the phrase in parentheses entirely. Alberty's paper (a publication of IUPAC so it should carry some weight for Misplaced Pages) makes it clear that internal energy may include or exclude many different terms. Flying Jazz 14:13, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I cited the Alberty reference to answer a question you left on my talk page. All I meant to say is that thermodynamic potentials like internal energy and enthalpy are useful because the variables in the particular system under study determine whether the potentials include or exclude some terms. But Alberty only uses the word "temperature" a few times in that article, so I don't think a reference to Alberty is justified in the Thermodynamic temperature article. I hope you consider reducing the length of many of your Notes in this article. I've never seen such tangential Notes in Misplaced Pages. If the information is useful but tangential, it should be added to other articles and linked to instead of placed in a Note. I'd also consider removing the History section. We already have History_of_thermodynamics and Timeline_of_thermodynamics,_statistical_mechanics,_and_random_processes for historical information. Details about contributions should be included in the biographical articles. Sorry if I sound overly pushy, but the article as a whole is too long and cumbersome in my opinion. Flying Jazz 20:18, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Featured image nominated for delisting

I saw the image above and was surprised to see it was a featured image of Misplaced Pages in spite of the fact that pressure and temperature values are given for a two dimensional representation. I've nominated the image for delisting. See Misplaced Pages:Featured_picture_candidates/delist/Translational_Motion to comment. Flying Jazz 00:17, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

What’s your problem? I wish I had never contacted you asking your opinion on a mathematics issue. People like you make editing Misplaced Pages so un-fun. That’s fine, I’ll play your petty game. Do you just go around in the world angry over something and take your frustrations out on others? Greg L (my talk) 03:41, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

P.S. Regarding deleting the above comment from your user page as a “personal attack”, unfortunately, it’s not; they’re all fair questions given the way you seem to operate. I note that a period table template you made was nominated for deletion (see entry here) back in January. It apparently got deleted as it no longer exists. That makes me wonder if you’re still smarting from that experience and want to “spread the joy.” Gee, thanks. I suggest we part ways and you go find someone else to pester. Greg L (my talk) 04:32, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Huh? I think asking "Should a factually incorrect image be a featured image?" is a legitimate question. If I have a volume of helium at the temperature and pressure indicated in the caption, will the atoms really be that close to each other? Will they really collide with each other that often? Those are my questions. You think asking "Do you just go around in the world angry over something and take your frustrations out on others?" is a legitimate question. That is your question. As for the periodic table issue, see Misplaced Pages:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2006_January_26#Template:Periodic_table. An editor came up with an fantastic template, and I was the first one to agree with the deletion nomination that you think I'm angry about. The deleted template wasn't even mine. Please don't take what I am doing personally. I don't mean to pester you. I am only trying to make a good faith effort to make the encyclopedia better, and I'm not angry about anything. I hope I can convince you not to be angry about anything either. Flying Jazz 05:21, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Re: exploding head

Small world eh? :) --froth 06:13, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Wikiquette

I have initiated a Wikiiquette alert about your recent behavior on Kilogram. As I understand the process, discussion from the alert is expected to occur on Talk:Kilogram.

I personally apologize for mentioning personal attacks on the talk page. I went and read No Personal Attacks after I posted my concern on the talk page, and it strongly suggests talking to users about personal attacks on their talk pages, not on the project talk page where the dispute is occurring. Enuja (talk) 00:00, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Hogwash. Boy is that the pot calling the kettle black. I posted this response on your talk page:

Enuja, regarding your recent post on my talk page, I actually had come back to the computer after cooling off to tone down my flaming of JimWae when I saw that you had left your message about “personal attacks.” Anyone who wants to can click on this history link to see what I originally posted. While, I'm not exactly proud of it, it was all heart-felt and precisely what I meant at the time. I also read the Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks article. It says:

There is no bright-line rule about what constitutes a personal attack as opposed to constructive discussion, but some types of comments are never acceptable:

• Racial, sexual, homophobic, ageist, religious, political, ethnic, or other epithets (such as against disabled people) directed against another contributor. Disagreement over what constitutes a religion, race, sexual preference, or ethnicity is not a legitimate excuse.
• Using someone's affiliations as a means of dismissing or discrediting their views -- regardless of whether said affiliations are mainstream or extreme.
• Threats of legal action.
• Threats of violence, particularly death threats.
• Threats of vandalism to userpages or talk pages.
• Threats or actions which expose other Misplaced Pages editors to political, religious or other persecution by government, their employer or any others. Violations of this sort may result in a block for an extended period of time, which may be applied immediately by any administrator upon discovery. Admins applying such sanctions should confidentially notify the members of the Arbitration Committee of what they have done and why.

As you can see, the prohibited behavior very much falls in an entirely different camp from anything I’ve ever written regarding you and JimWae (particularly JimWae). In each case, my criticism has been about behavior and skills of the author. While, he might not like it, life does not entitle you to be free of criticism—especially when your behavior is clearly outlandish and provocative; people need to have a thicker skin than that. I don’t know if JimWae is accustomed to having teachers tell him he’s done good work when he really hasn't but he won’t get false self-esteme-boosting praise from me. Also, when you falsely state that a consensus has been reached and start to act on it, again, I’ll call you out on such a stunt. It was a cheap shot and you know it. Greg L (my talk) 02:38, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

• I deleted the Request for Comment template on the Kilogram talk page because, after I did the Request for Comment, I tried to be active on RfC, and I noticed lots and lots of old RfCs. I was going to other pages and deleting old RfC templates, and I figured it would only be consistent to delete the RfC on the kilogram page once it got old.

* You may have many reasons for deleting the RfC. However, the below-quoted text is your stated reason for doing so that you posted on Talk:Kilogram page:

I am removing the Request for Comment template because we haven't gotten any new comments in three days, and Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/Maths,_science,_and_technology really doesn't appear to be a very lively place; other RfCs there are also only netting one or two outside editor comments.

and you also summarized the results as follows…

We haven't come to a consensus on where mass versus weight and the issues of massing should be.

Greg L (my talk) 23:33, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

If you want the RfC to be active again, just write another RfC. It would have been constructive and reasonable for you to have re-opened the RfC at that time, and I would have appreciated it much more than you just ignoring the RfC. I honestly did not believe that we would get any other comments, from looking at other RfCs and how many comments they get. I'm very sorry you interpreted my action as trying to ignore your viewpoint. It was not my intention. I was very disappointed that you didn't reply to my original summary of the RfC, and I'd still like you to do so. I did not try to make up a consensus where there was none.

My interpretation is that the RfC did establish a consensus that mass v. weight should be in one common article, and not in articles devoted to particular units of mass.

My interpretation was also that RfC did not ADDRESS the issue of WHERE mass v. weight should go (and therefore there is no consensus on the issue), so I asked in talk:weight. I would greatly appreciation your views on where the single, common treatment of mass v. weight should go. I can't see how it's any cheaper for me to ask people where mass v. weight should go than for you to continue adding to mass v. weight on kilogram. We are both trying to move forward. I think I'm trying to move forward with the consensus, you appear to think that there is no consensus so you should just ignore the opinions of others editor. Maybe neither of these approaches are correct, but I'd love to hear a suggestion for a new approach.

You've said you care about kilogram because students will actually use the article. I care about the article for about the same reason; it's a really important article that people will read. I think it's really, really sad that process such as RfC and asking questions on the talk page are not getting a large number of interested editors. But, instead of giving up, I think that means that kilogram needs interested editors like you and I, and that we need to find a way to agree. It is not finding a way to agree for you to tell me and other editors that we should just stay away from the article because we disagree with you. That approach; that if someone disagrees with you, they should simply stop editing the article (and you should keep editing the article) is what bothers me, and what makes me think of WP:OWN.

Unfortunately, the wikiquette alerts are, much like RfCs, totally volunteer based, so it probably won't help us straighten this out at all. Which leaves it to us to be mature and cooperative.

I couldn’t be more pleased to hear that! Greg L (my talk) 00:08, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

…I'm trying, and I can see that I'm not succeeding at avoiding pissing you off. I don't know how to be more polite and more constructive than I have been. If you have any honest, polite advice I am very willing to listen to it.

I know how to leave the article, but I honestly think that would be a disservice to the article; it needs more attention, not less. Your edits (like all edits of Misplaced Pages) have been helpful in great part by sparking other people to improve them, and if you chase off everyone else, the article will not be as good as it could be. Enuja (talk) 22:56, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Gad! Talk about “not being able to let go.” The article has grown. Stop whining about how you can’t get your way and start making good-faith edits. I haven't seen much of the kind of work you can do because it relies too heavily upon the delete key. I've corrected an error in kilogram this afternoon and added a section with photo links. Enjoy. Greg L (my talk) 23:04, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I can't make good-faith edits (which, to me, mean collaborative editing) to kilogram until we have a consensus about what should be in the article. Since you say we don't have a consensus, I can't edit. Enuja (talk) 23:10, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Barnstar

		The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
		For your herculean efforts at Kilogram and for your wonderful CG image of the IPK. Enuja (talk) 23:31, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

FPC

Hello. I've nominated Image:CGKilogram.jpg, which you created and uploaded, to Featured Picture status. I think it's a great image that adds a lot of value to the kilogram article. I can't believe you created such an incredible image :-) You may find the nom at Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates/Computer-generated kilogram, where you may correct my nom, if you wish, as I copied it from the image description page and, not having used the metric system in my entire life, don't know if there's something wrong or incorrect. Keep up the good work! --Agüeybaná 23:31, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and regarding this, that's not my talk page :-) You're the second person to do that. Sorry :-) --Agüeybaná 02:08, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Discussion style

About one phrase you left on various talk pages (including mine): How can anyone have such a dramatic, 180° change of heart? -- maybe you are assuming too much about peoples (hidden) motives. From the tone of your earlier comments, it appears to me that you saw the nomination for deletion of Template:SI multiples almost as a personal attack, while I was merely expressing my doubt that it served a purpose. I did explain on Talk:Kelvin#SI prefixed forms of kelvin that I wanted to see a consensus about whether to keep these tables in various articles, and there was clearly no consensus for deletion. For me it is not a "dramatic change of heart"; I don't think it would be good if I became very emotional about minor disputes. I don't know you personally, but from the way you respond to me and to others on various talk pages I have the impression that you do often get more upset than necessary. Maybe you are never upset at all, but then be aware that your writing style could give a false impression. Han-Kwang (t) 10:15, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

• I am not upset. Nor did I see your nomination for the SI template as a "personal attack". Not in the least. I don't even like the SI templates since they generate inferior-looking tables. I saw your nomination to delete the SI table template for what it was. First, you deleted an SI table, then, when I restored it, you tried to delete the template that made it. Am I missing anything here? I don't think so. Notwithstanding the general rule that editors should embrace the Misplaced Pages's wholesome, politically correct notion of "assuming good faith with other’s actions", no one has to suspend common sense. Your prior writings and actions would make your intentions abundantly clear. So don't try to hide behind the apron strings of my "discussion style". That is a metric ton of weapons-grade bullionium and I'll have none of it. Greg L (my talk) 17:55, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

RE:Where’d I see that picture before?

Cool... Congrats! --Agüeybaná 15:57, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

free versions of watt balance

Cross posting from Theresa Knott's page.

The copyright holder, in this case Richard whoever, will have to email permissions-en@wikimedia.org with a statement that he is explicitly releasing these pictures under a free license such as the GFDL or into the public domain. Then an OTRS representative will review that the license statement is ok, and will notate the pictures wikipedia page with a template stating that permission has been received for them from the author.⇒ SWATJester 17:09, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

• Denny: Here’s what Richard Steiner wrote in his e-mail with the pictures: “ I’ve attached a schematic of the balance and coil, plus a picture of the upper balance wheel assembly. No copyrights involved.” Is his effective usage of the language of “non-copyrighted” different from yours (“he copyright holder”)? What I hope to do is minimize the hurdles Richard would have jump over since he knows nothing about editing a Misplaced Pages article. They are pictures taken by Richard and he has given them to me without restriction. They are in my possession now. What can I do so Richard isn’t further burdened? Greg L (my talk) 17:19, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, it's different language. The simplest path is that he can email permissions above, and when we get it you can go ahead and upload and we'll notate the file. The only requirements here are that he explicitly states in his email that it's a GFDL (or compliant) license that he is uploading the pictures under. The email also needs to come from whatever his official email address or domain is from. That's the easiest way. He emails permissions from his official address, and says "I license the picutres Greg L is about to upload under the GFDL" and then you upload them, and then someone (I can do it, or I can get another OTRS volunteer if you don't trust me on this) will put a template on the pictures that says permissions received, and we're all set.) PS, My name isn't Denny, it's just a quote from Boston Legal.⇒ SWATJester 17:26, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Alternatively, Richard can upload them himself through his own account, using the GFDL self upload template. It'll still need a permissions email as described above though. ⇒ SWATJester 17:10, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I've put the OTRS permission received template on the file. Should be good to go now. ⇒ SWATJester 02:19, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

• Thank you Swatjester. Greg L (my talk) 03:47, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

A simple warning

A simple warning should suffice. Do not make false accusations of vandalism, as you did here — and do not remove dispute, dubious, fact tages and the properly added and documented on the talk page while the controversy continues. Gene Nygaard 01:44, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Jimbo's talkpage

I removed a comment that was put there by a vandal that was of no use to anybody. Unfortunately, this is a regular occurance on Jimbo's talkpage. I would like to assure you that I didn't and would not remove a comment that was serious or even by an established Wikipedian who was just being playful. The comment I removed was vandalism, and you can check the diffs to find out exactly what it was. Infact, I'll provide it for you... Lradrama 09:20, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

THIS is the comment I removed. Honestly, I would not removed comments that were not blatant vandalism like this. Cheers, and happy editing. Lradrama 09:22, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

GregL, just email Jimbo at "Jimmy Wales" <jwales at wikia dot com> and put "Misplaced Pages" in the subject line. I think that will get his attention better. 207.190.198.130 20:10, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

“207.190.198.130” You seem to have been unjustly swept up in this for backing my position. Clearly, it’s a case of mistaken identity and (what I feel) was Swatjester’s near-irrational fit over my defying him. You lipped off to him and 47 minutes later got blocked. Quite telling. I've posted my explanation of the true circumstances regarding our near back-to-back reversions of Swatjester’s removal of the photograph here on your user talk page (if that’s what you can call it when you’re anonymous). I also notified Hank-wang here on his talk page. Greg L (my talk) 02:56, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

That's fine, no worries at all, it wasn't an inconvenience, trust me! Don't worry about it! Thankyou for understanding, with regards, Lradrama 15:32, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Lradrama has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling at someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Happy editing!
Smile at others by adding {{subst:Smile}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

Lradrama 15:33, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Unnecessary edit

Your change to ] was unnecessary, and if I'm not mistaken, actually discouraged in our current guidelines. Redirects are there to use.

The missing warning is duly noted. Gene Nygaard 02:24, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I know about the policy but I hate redirects. It looks like “that article no longer exists” or “excuse our dust, we’re still under construction” Greg L (my talk) 02:29, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Since you like to argue about national varieties of English, you should also consider that linking what is actually used can be helpful to people involved in usage disputes; and that while people will use such arguments, they are misleading but needn't be unnecessarily so. Gene Nygaard 16:07, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, one major reason they are now actively discouraged (that wasn't always the case) is the software change which makes it possible to anchor redirects to a specific subsection of an article. That wasn't true until recently, even if you put in #... it would only take you to the top of the article when used through a link. Even redirects not so anchored now might be in the future, and using the redirect in some cases will make the old uses follow the new redirect. Gene Nygaard 16:12, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (Image:NIST watt balance.jpg)

Thanks for uploading Image:NIST watt balance.jpg. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Misplaced Pages under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Misplaced Pages. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Misplaced Pages (see our policy for non-free media).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Misplaced Pages page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that all non-free media not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. BetacommandBot 14:57, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

A delay in getting to consensus

Hi greg. I just wanted to drop a line before I head off to let you know that there's probably going to be a delay in getting a complete consensus on the Kilogram article. (Gene got an enforced vacation, so he might not be able to contribute for a bit). However, given that there's some time before the editing deadline, I don't see any harm in waiting for him to return before going anywhere substantial with the article. (Although I don't see any issue with using the time to address the concerns he raised.) Best, --Bfigura 04:37, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks!

Aw, thanks. A few other people have suggested as much, but I think I'm going to wait a bit before doing that. I'd say I'll let you know, but since that might get construed as canvassing, I'll just say that you're free to add Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_adminship/Bfigura to a watchlist if you choose :) Cheers, --Bfigura 06:32, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Pressure in the translational motion animation (again)

Thanks for changing the caption on this animation to show a higher pressure. A google search led me here where I found some of the data you used. Unfortunately, I still think the caption was sufficiently misleading to be called wrong, and I've changed it. Here's why:

To most readers, a caption that says "Here, the size of helium atoms relative to their spacing is shown to scale under 1950 atmospheres of pressure...atoms don’t really move in 0.062-nm-thick windows..." with no further elaboration would suggest that you are depicting an unrealistically thin 0.062 nm window and the pressure is based on that value. But a volume 0.062 X 1.66 X 1.45 nm would be 0.149 nm³. With 32 atoms in that volume, the density would be 214 atoms/nm³, not 48 atoms/nm³, so the pressure depicted would be over 4 times greater than 1950 atm value you cite (if the rest of your math is OK).

From what I could tell from your post on Froth's talk page, the starting point of your calculations was a 0.2744 nm average spacing between atoms, and the density you calculated of 48 atoms/nm³ works out for a volume of 0.2744 X 1.66 X 1.45 nm. So changing the value from 1950 atmospheres to something over 4 times greater would mean that everything else about your animation would be thrown off because your average spacing would no longer be correct.

What you seem to be doing is taking a 0.2744 nm thick layer and representing it as if it were one atom thick, and you're straight with the reader now when the caption says "in a 3-D box, they would actually pass in front of and behind each other and collide much less often," but then it becomes even more unclear that the 1950 atm value represents a 3-D situation.

Now that I think I understood what's been going on, I've tried to correct the caption. Here's my math:

0.2744 nm X (11 pixels/0.062 nm) = 48.7 pixel thickness above the computer screen. I rounded this to about 50 to be nice to the reader.

Also, as a quibble, the maxwell-boltzmann distribution for a 2-D situation is not a "perfect" representation of the 3-D case (even though it is a perfectly good distribution for a 2-D case), so I also removed the word "perfect" from your caption. I hope you like the change. Flying Jazz 08:03, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

• Naw, the 0.062 nm depth of the z-axis is actually a zero depth as far as spacing goes. You can only calculate inter-atomic spacing by measuring in 2D; you can't make a “volume” calculation in a frame that is just thick enough for atoms to slide by. An expanded explanation is on your talk page here (historical version). Greg L (my talk) 20:35, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Please forgive me for over-analyzing this, but the statements "The animation properly conveys the appearance of helium atoms at a pressure of 1950 atmospheres" and "the z-axis is zero depth" cannot both be correct because zero depth means zero volume, and that would mean infinite atmospheres. Have you seen the new caption here? I'm pretty sure that I understand that you determined the pressure that would give the same inter-particle spacing in 3-D as is shown in the 2-D model. A statistical mechanics person or a physicist or another kind of "particle person" might understand the old version of the caption and have no issues with it. However, readers (like me) with more of an engineering background than a particle physics background or kids who are just learning about the gas laws for the first time really do need to relate to a 3-D volume if a 3-D pressure is given. Of course you're right that we can't just make a 2-D animation match 3-D reality, but maybe we can give the volume that makes PV=nRT hold if we were to try to make a 2-D animation match a 3-D reality. Flying Jazz 00:20, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Flying Jazz, I copied the exchange to Image talk:Translational motion.gif. You may leave a brief note here when your respond there. Greg L (my talk) 21:02, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

{{SI multiples}}

I've fixed it up so that the template uses the micro symbol rather than mu. I never knew that they were different. You said you understand why ... do tell. The other symbols are the same as the Latin letters they look like ... aren't they? Jɪmp 07:00, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for all the explanation. I'll be using the correct symbols from now on (wherever I can). It makes sense to me now ... almost, actually there is something still puzzling me. I see why these would want to be different, why, though, do they also look different? Could we not have got all the advantages we have using a micro symbol which looks just like a mu but can be distinguished from a mu by a computer? Also, as for looking different, yeah, I can see it now, since I know to look for a difference ... but it doesn't seem a great difference (though, of course, I've not got the trained eye), nothing like the difference you generally get in changing font. --Jɪmp 17:07, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the "tl" template, see Barek's answer on my talk page. Another useful one is {{lt}}. {{lt|SI multiples}} for example will give you the following.

Template:SI multiples (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Jɪmp 00:08, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

No, worries. Jɪmp 00:11, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

vandals, etc.

Hey, thanks for caring! For policies on vandalism, see WP:VAND. The type of vandalism done by the user you referred to at my talk page is actually on the mild side - he/she hadn't edited in three months or so. Also, IP addresses can be used by many people, so the contributions from that IP may not all be by the same person. As an unrelated suggestion, you might want to check out Help:Show preview. Using the "show preview" button when editing can prevent the situation of having lots of edits to make one change (as in Talk:Kilogram. Helps other editors to see the changes more easily. - Special-T (talk) 14:32, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

SI multiples revisited

Hi GregL, I see you've sorted out the micro issue with the template. I made an extended version Template:SI multiples 2 that allows suppression of less-common prefixes. It probably needs some more work (such as enabling the &x00b5; parameter), so if you have constructive comments, let me know (on the template talk page). I'm just giving the options, but I'll try to stay out of discussions which prefixes deserve being mentioned in a particular article. Han-Kwang (t) 14:58, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

My tone

Greg,

I'm sorry for my poor choice of words. I had no intention of taking any uncivil tone.

Jɪmp 04:18, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Number formatting tempate

Been a while getting back to you—with Christmas, New Year's & a computer which seems to have a mind of its own ... Yeah, the kind of template you're after, one that'll stick spaces betweem digits, is doable. It'd take a bit of coding but not tons. We'd have to resolve the issue of the width. I saw the photos on Mosnum talk. Yeah, it looks completely different to what I see in terms of font, however, the 0.3 em still looks too wide with the 0.2 em looking just about right and my gut feeling is better too narrow than too wide and thence risk it's being mistaken for an ordinary space. I don't reckon that making the width optional would be a viable alternative. Another issue would be what to do before the decimal point. Spaces, commas, either with the default being ... or do we make two templates? Finally ... no, probably not finally but finally for now ... what do we call it? I'd very much advise against {{formatnum}} or {{formatnumber}} for risk of confusion with the magic word. We'd want something which better reflected what the template does.

So, yes, it could be done, next question is whether it should be done. I agree that spaces as delimiters are perfectly readable. I prefer spaces ... and preferably either side of the decimal point. If it were up to me, I'd have it that way across WP (seeing as the copy-and-pasteability problem is sorted). Commas then spaces is a compromise I'd settle for. However, it's a question of consistency for me. I'd want this to be the standard formatting and I'd want not to have to use some cumbersome template but for this to be hardwired into {{formatnum:}} (the magic word). Without this we face either (or probably both) of two problems. The first of which being that if some numbers are formatted this way and others the (current) standard way (i.e. what {{formatnum:}} currently gives, commas then nothing), we'd have inconsistency ... of course we do have this now so things won't exactly be getting worse. The second being that to overcome the first we'd have to hunt down the {{formatnum:}}s and replace them with the new template ... which I'm sure would not go down too well and would push up the pre-expand sizes of many templates (meaning that fewer of them will fit onto a page).

Jɪmp 19:02, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Rationale for using “comma delimiting” with “narrow-gap delimiting”

• Jimp: If you are using a mainstream OS (like XP) then what you are seeing regarding 0.2 em vs. 0.3 em represents the majority of users. Details like width of the separator in the fractional side of the decimal marker can be resolved at the last minute after ensuring the consensus sees the same thing; I would accede to the majority. The more vexing issue to settle is what to do to with the integer portion of the significand. I advocate using commas for two reasons:

1) Most articles on Misplaced Pages already use commas. It’s what U.S. readers expect and is a convention that Europeans are accustomed to encountering. Trying to do the integral any other way wouldn’t be well received and the template/parser function simply wouldn’t get used.

2) Few numbers simultaneously require delimiting on both sides of the decimal marker. In other words, it will be a rare number where commas (a U.S. style) and narrow spaces (a European/SI style) are juxtaposed within a single value. For example, check out Kilogram, which I suspect is representative of the typical technical article as far as the types of numbers it uses. Here are some typical examples (copied from Kilogram):

• The avoirdupois pound is defined as exactly 0.45359237 kg, making one kilogram approximately equal to 2.205 avoirdupois pounds.
• For instance, the meter is defined as the distance light travels in a vacuum during a time interval of 1⁄299,792,458 of a second.
• The meter’s length is delineated—not defined—as 1,579,800.298728 wavelengths of light from this laser.
• The Avogadro constant, is an experimentally determined value that is currently measured as being 6.02214179(30) × 10 atoms (2006 CODATA value).
• …has a relative standard uncertainty of 50 parts per billion and the only cube root values within this uncertainty must fall within the range of 84,446,889.8 ±1.4; that is…
• As such, the kilogram would be defined as 1000/27.9769271 × 6.02214179 × 10 atoms of silicon-28 (≅35.7437397 fixed moles of silicon-28 atoms).
• The Planck constant would be fixed, where h = 6.62606896 × 10 J·s
• The kilogram would be defined as “the mass of a body at rest whose equivalent energy equals the energy of photons whose frequencies sum to 1.356392733 × 10 Hz.”

Note in the above examples that only the third example (the definition of the meter) has five or more digits in both the integral and fractional portions of the significand. All the others require delimiting only on one side of the decimal marker or the other, but not both. Regarding naming the thing, an obvious choice for me would be {{delimitnum}}.

In order to make progress and work together, I’m just hoping we can agree that four things are true about Misplaced Pages: 1) many of its articles are currently using non-breaking or simple full-width spaces in the decimal portion, 2) this makes it so you can’t copy-paste into Excel without editing because the “numbers” aren’t really numeric values, 3) the visual appearance of full-width spaces is a Costco-size bottle of suck, and 4) regular spaces which word-wrap at the end of the line are unacceptable. If we can agree that all the above are true, then we can further agree that Misplaced Pages could really benefit from a template/parser function. But then the question becomes: how do we get editors to use it? I propose that a template/parser function that makes life extremely easy for editors will be highly sought after and well used.

I think it would be super-helpful if {{delimitnum}} also took care of uncertainty in concise form, handled scientific notation, and put a non-breaking space between the value and the unit symbol so they can’t become separated at an end-of-line word-wrap. Examples are as follows:

• {{delimitnum|6.02214179|30|23|kg}} → 6.02214179(30) × 10 kg

• {{delimitnum|1579800.298728}} → 1,579,800.298728

• {{delimitnum|1.356392733||50|Hz}} → 1.356392733 × 10 Hz

• {{delimitnum|0.45359237|||kg}} → 0.45359237 kg

• {{delimitnum|6.022461}} → 6.022461

• {{delimitnum|6.0224613}} → 6.0224613

• {{delimitnum|6.02246134}} → 6.02246134

• {{delimitnum|6.022461342}} → 6.022461342
  
  

I’d bet that faced with the prospect of coding all this: 6.022<span style="margin-left:0.3em">141<span style="margin-left:0.2em">79(30)</span>&nbsp;×&nbsp;10<sup>23</sup>&nbsp;kg to obtain this: 6.02214179(30) × 10 kg, users will be anxious to use a template/parser function like this: {{delimitnum|6.02214179|30|23|kg}}

Is all that possible?!? Could it even be smart enough to make any em-based spans following a “1” narrower than the others? Like this…

6.02214179223, which I coded as follows:

6.022<span style="margin-left:0.3em">141<span style="margin-left:0.2em">792<span style="margin-left:0.3em">23</font></span>

Note the narrower gap (in bold) following the 1 in order to make it appear visually balanced. At least, it looks so in Safari. Here’s what it looks like knocked down 0.1 em across the board:

6.02214179223, which I coded as follows:

6.022<span style="margin-left:0.2em">141<span style="margin-left:0.1em">792<span style="margin-left:0.2em">23</font></span>

The above doesn’t even look delimited on Safari, but there it is for comparison on your machine. Is the “141” centered? What OS and browser are you using?

Greg L (my talk) 20:44, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it's all possible and I would agree with those four points above. Also, yes, I'm using XP (when the computer decides to work at all) and those 0.1 em spaces are too thin. Before the decimal point, let's see which way concensus goes but, no, it might not be a problem seeing that few numbers on WP will have more than four significant figures either side. Commas then spaces would be slightly easier to code. We might run into strife though if ever anyone wants more than a dozen or so significant figures: the software can't handle that (unless we use more than one parameter) but I don't suppose that this will be a great problem. Jɪmp 21:30, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

• Jimp, keep me apprised; I’m very interested in how this is done. Let me know when you start on it so I can watch as you start and do your editing. I know nothing about perl.

  Sometimes, just doing something and then showing others is a way to make progress on Misplaced Pages. I once had all the contents of Mass versus weight as section within the Kilogram article. A consensus had been easily reached (plenty of unsolicited bitching and moaning) that the Mass versus weight part didn’t properly belong in Kilogram but no consensus could be reached as to where the subject should be moved (to Mass?, Weight, in its own article?). Finally, I just created the new article. The others rapidly (within minutes to hours) went to Mass and Weight and added links to the new article.

  By the way, I took the liberty of adding—after you posted your above answer—a fourth example (0.45359237 kg) of how the delimitnum would be parsed in the template/parser function. Greg L (my talk) 21:54, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Will keep y'posted. It won't be this year though. How ... there are many ways to skin a cat, right, but what I'd do is do it thousandth by thousandth ... details later. Ave a good one. Jɪmp 22:21, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Platform-independent span-gap comparison

Until then. For convenience, here’s a link to the Manual of Style discussion. And below, is a copy of the em-spacing comparison. Later. Greg L (my talk) 00:19, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

0.1 em:

6.02241679
6.022416794
6.0224167942
6.02241679423

0.2 em:

6.02241679
6.022416794
6.0224167942
6.02241679423

0.25 em:

6.02241679
6.022416794
6.0224167942
6.02241679423

0.3 em:

6.02241679
6.022416794
6.0224167942
6.02241679423

&nbsp;

6.022 416 79
6.022 416 794
6.022 416 7942
6.022 416 794 23

0.4 em:

6.02241679
6.022416794
6.0224167942
6.02241679423

Shown above is how
delimiting appears with
live text on your
system.

Hi gents. I like what's going on here - even though I don't understand much of the detail. I think the best way I can help you is by continuing my low key lobbying at MOSNUM. Don't underestimate the need for that.

An example of it working well involves the use of nm as an abbreviation for nautical mile. Don't you hate that? I used to find it everywhere, and found myself getting into edit wars on countless individual ship & aircraft articles before I discovered MOSNUM. After some careful lobbying I was able to get such use deprecated, as a result of which it is now becoming less common :-) Thunderbird2 (talk) 21:35, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Making a case for why narrow gaps are already well-accepted on Misplaced Pages

Thanks for your support T-bird2. You and User:Gene Nygaard have been at the forefront of serving as our “SI Nazis” (I mean that in a good way). Although context would avoid most cases of confusion in the field, using nm for nautical mile in general publications like an encyclopedia is so wrong.

Especially, thanks for offering your “low-key lobbying” at MOSNUM. I truly have no idea if we need buy-in from anyone over there because I’m entirely unfamiliar with the forum and the ability of those editors to frustrate the use and adoption of Jimp’s template/parser function. My instinct however—especially given your caution (“Don't underestimate the need for that”)—is that your obtaining buy-in from people like SMcCandlish would certainly be helpful. His reasoning for opposing the template/parser function (“It is not understood by most readers”) is simply flat wrong. I think his position is unintentionally just a red herring due to bias; he personally doesn’t like the look of space-delimited remainders. I’ve seen many Misplaced Pages articles that feature space-delimited numbers to the right of the decimal marker and they’ve been stable for years without one single “drive-by shooting” by an unregistered editor-in-a-hurry attempting to “fix” the ‘funny-looking’ values. Font size is just one such example; there are too many Misplaced Pages articles to count. This is clear proof that essentially all readers readily recognize that what they’re looking at are space-delimited numeric values. If this can occur with full-width spaces, then reduced-width ones—which just look “right”—will be even easier and more natural for readers. Delimiting numeric strings to the right of the decimal marker serves precisely the same purpose as does doing so to the left of the marker and is very much needed. I just hope that any opposition from SMcCandlish (he seems somewhat flexible now) doesn’t harden into full-blown, proactive opposition to our efforts to make progress here.

I’ve looked at the perl-based programming language that Jimp uses to make his templates. People like Jimp and User:Hankwang (another template writer) are the unsung heros of Misplaced Pages. I don’t think they get anywhere near the recognition they deserve since they quietly go about their day, working damn hard to make template/parser functions that work so simply, the magic of what they accomplish is masked. If Jimp can pull this off (a template/parser function that offers all the above-mentioned, much-needed features), then I think everyone will jump on the bandwagon and the template/parser function will prove quite popular. Greg L (my talk) 01:05, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Nutshell of what is being contemplated

P.S. Sorry if I’m speaking below your level, but since you wrote above “I don't understand much of the details…”, I thought I’d here-provide, in a nutshell, what’s being contemplated:

• Jimp and I are discussing the details and merits of a template/parser function (magic word) to make life easier for editors when expressing delimited numeric equivalencies—with and without physical units. The fundamental motivation underlying this effort is this obvious truth: delimiting numeric strings to the right of the decimal marker serves precisely the same purpose as does doing so to the left of the marker and is very much needed on Misplaced Pages. A full-featured use of the template/parser function would allow an editor to type {{delimitnum:6.02246479|30|23|kg}} in order to obtain the following: 6.02246479(30) × 10 kg

  The parenthetical (30) in the above value denotes the uncertainty at 1σ standard deviation (68% confidence level) in the two least significant digits of the significand.

• In summary, the above template/parser function functions as follows: {{magic word: significand–delimiting | uncertainty | base–ten exponent | unit symbol}}

• The use of a template/parser function like this greatly simplifies things for editors. To generate the above value, one currently must hand-code the following: 6.022<span style="margin-left:0.25em">464<span style="margin-left:0.25em">79(30)</span>&nbsp;×&nbsp;10<sup>23</sup>&nbsp;kg (*Phew*)

• Although highly capable and feature-rich, this template/parser function wouldn’t be cumbersom for simple tasks. For instance, one need only type {{delimitnum:6.022464}} to obtain 6.022464 or they could type {{delimitnum:1579800.298728}} to obtain 1,579,800.298728
  
  You could also pick and choose just the features needed. For instance {{delimitnum:1.356392733||50|Hz}} yields 1.356392733 × 10 Hz and {{delimitnum:0.45359237|||kg}} yields 0.45359237 kg
  
  

This section added 10 January 2008 after some of the below discussion already took place in order to have a succinct place to capture important details.

• One of the things that has been standardized by the ISO, the BIPM, NIST, ect. is that delimiting in the decimal shall not leave a single dangling digit, like “0.001 4”. Accordingly, the progression of delimiting goes as follows:

2.123
2.1234
2.12345
2.123456
2.1234567
2.12345678
2.123456789

• Even nicer, the template/parser function wouldn’t use “spaces” to delimit the fractional portion of the significand (the portion of the significand to the right of the decimal marker). Instead, it would use what typographers refer to as “pair kerning” via em-based control of margins (e.g. <span style="margin-left:0.25em">). Margin positioning is part of what the Web-authoring community calls span tags, which, in turn, is part of Cascading Style Sheets (CSS). Effectively, what appears to be a space would really only be a visual effect caused by the precise placement of the digits; the “spaces” wouldn’t be separate, typeable characters.

  To see the difference, slowly select the two values below with your mouse:
  

6.022464342 (via em-based span tags, note how the cursor snaps across the gaps)

6.022 464 342 (via non-breaking spaces, note how the spaces can be individually selected)

• One might ask “Why is em-based margin control via span tags nice?” Note how, as you select the two values above, the lower version has spaces that can be selected because they are distinct characters. By using the technique illustrated in the top example however, people will be able to select entire significands from Misplaced Pages and paste them into Excel, where they will be recognized as real numbers! This beats the hell out of the current system, where (as exemplified at Font size) simple regular spaces and non-breaking spaces are used to delimit numbers. These values can’t be copied and used in Excel without first hand-deleting each of the spaces from every value. Until the spaces have been deleted, Excel treats the numbers as text strings upon which mathematical operations can’t be performed.

• All of the above assumes several things: 1) commas should be used to delimit the integer portion of the significand, 2) narrow gaps should be used to delimit the fractional portion, and 3) a template/parser function should be made to facilitate delimiting the significand and to also simplify the formatting of the rest of numeric equivalencies (such as relative standard uncertainty in concise form, base-ten exponents, and setting off unit symbols with a non-breaking space). The reasoning underlying this is addressed in Rationale for using “comma delimiting” with “narrow-gap delimiting”, above. As regards how Misplaced Pages readers already recognize and accept gap-delimiting to the right of the decimal marker, see Making a case for why narrow gaps are already well-accepted on Misplaced Pages, above.

Greg L (my talk) 20:33, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Update

• UPDATE: Today, I looked at this page using Firefox on Mac and saw how 0.3-em gaps appeared larger than in Safari. It’s a bit of a jump, but I suspect (hope) that what I’m seeing in Firefox is representative of what Windows users are seeing. I also discovered something really neat. Safari treats 0.25 em as 0.3 em. However, Firefox displays 0.25 em narrower than for 0.3 em. Thus, by coding 0.25 em, Windows users should see 0.25 em, yet Safari users, who can see either 0.2 em (too narrow) or 0.3 em (just right) will continue to see the rounded-up, 0.3 em space. Let me know how the examples in the below Discussion subsection appear; I’ve adjusted them all down to 0.25 em unless the span follows the digit 1, then it is 0.2 em as it seems to look better across all platforms when following the digit 1. I’ve also adjusted everything above in Nutshell of what is being contemplated this same way. For convenience, I’ve reproduced some examples chosen from Kilogram and modified them all per this new convention so you can see a complex variety of delimited numeric strings in context. Please tell whether this technique produces acceptable looking strings in these following examples:

• The avoirdupois pound is defined as exactly 0.45359237 kg, making one kilogram approximately equal to 2.205 avoirdupois pounds.
• For instance, the meter is defined as the distance light travels in a vacuum during a time interval of 1⁄299,792,458 of a second.
• The meter’s length is delineated—not defined—as 1,579,800.298728 wavelengths of light from this laser.
• The Avogadro constant, is an experimentally determined value that is currently measured as being 6.02214179(30) × 10 atoms (2006 CODATA value).
• …has a relative standard uncertainty of 50 parts per billion and the only cube root values within this uncertainty must fall within the range of 84,446,889.8 ±1.4; that is…
• As such, the kilogram would be defined as 1000/27.9769271 × 6.02214179 × 10 atoms of silicon-28 (≅35.7437397 fixed moles of silicon-28 atoms).
• The Planck constant would be fixed, where h = 6.62606896 × 10 J·s
• The kilogram would be defined as “the mass of a body at rest whose equivalent energy equals the energy of photons whose frequencies sum to 1.356392733 × 10 Hz.”

If this doesn’t fix platform-dependent differences, maybe there will be a perl or parser function-based method to check the O.S. of the viewer and adjust accordingly. I don’t know; these are details that can be resolved on-the-fly. Greg L (my talk) 01:21, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

Posted before the Update, above.

Thanks for the clear explanation. I certainly look forward to seeing the fruits of Jimp's labour. I don’t agree with SMcCandlish's objections any more than you do, but they are well meaning and, until recently, had almost unanimous support at MOSNUM. Thanks to the efforts of you two, things are now close to evenly balanced. For the record, these are the arguments that were presented for and against SMcCandlish’s proposal for a NO SPACES rule:

ARGUMENTS IN FAVOUR

• Consensus by standard practice: SMcCandlish
• Reader unfamiliarity: Tony, SMcCandlish, Rmhermen,
• Ambiguity (breaks can be misinterpreted as the start of a new number): SMcCandlish
• Pasteability: Jimp, Jim77742
• Fidelity (resulting from pasteability): Jimp
• Readability of short strings: Thunderbird2

ARGUMENTS AGAINST

• Readability of long strings: Thunderbird2, 85.210.15.78, Jimp
• Fidelity (resulting from readability): Thunderbird2
• Rarity (no need to legislate for such a rare event; can rely on editor common sense & local consensus): Thunderbird2

The rarity argument works both ways and is likely to be used again. Notice also how readability appears both FOR and AGAINST. (The point being that, in normal text like this, 0.0014 is easier to read than 0.001 4). The question of pi also came up as a possible exception to any rule, as there seems to be a tradition of grouping every 5 digits.

I did a survey of 100 random articles to see how frequently the issue comes up at all. Of the 100, there are 16 that use the decimal point, 15 of which with either one or two decimal places. The 16th (Enchanted Rock) uses 4 decimal places to specify the position of a rock to the nearest 0.0001 seconds of a minute of latitude & longitude. (One second of latitude is about 31 metres, which means they are specifying the position of this particular rock to the nearest 3 mm!).

100 is not a huge sample, but the fact that I found one (however bizarre) in a sample this small suggests this could be less rare than I had previously imagined.

Of the 100, three had a connection with physics: Delphi (CERN), 1994 Shane and AdS/QCD. (No decimal point appears in any of the 3). I remember at least one about chemistry as well, but the details escape me.

Happy editing :-) Thunderbird2 (talk) 14:17, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

• For too long, debate at MOSNUM has been based on the appearance of full-width spaces. When I encounter an article that uses full-width, non-breaking spaces, I can see why delimiting to the right of the decimal marker on Misplaced Pages hasn’t been popular and hasn’t formally been adopted.

  Generally, Misplaced Pages policy is to permit spelling and style of other English-speaking countries besides the U.S. (“British English” vs. “American English” stuff). However, Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style properly permits only the American style for formating numbers. Misplaced Pages:Manual_of_Style#Large_numbers says delimiting in the integral of the significand should be done only with commas (flouting the SI way of doing things, which speaks only of narrow spaces). Also, Misplaced Pages:Manual_of_Style#Decimal_points says that the decimal marker should be a full stop rather than a comma. Again, this sides only with the American way of formatting numbers (the SI officially supports either commas or full stops for the decimal marker).

  You wrote of how others cite the aweful example of how “0.0014 is easier to read than 0.001 4).” Of course, a proper implementation of narrow-space delimiting never leaves a single dangling digit like that and. The proper progression is as follows:

  2.123
  2.1234
  2.12345
  2.123456
  2.1234567
  2.12345678
  2.123456789

  Accordingly, the “0.0014 is easier to read than 0.001 4” example is really no argument at all and, whether intentional or out of ignorance, is just a red herring.

  I find it interesting that Misplaced Pages:Manual_of_Style#Percentages states that there shall be no space between the value and the percent symbol (%), e.g. 2%, not 2 %. The BIPM via their 5.3.7 Stating values of dimensionless quantities, or quantities of dimension one, states that there is supposed to be a space between the numeric value and the percent symbol. This advise has been completely ignored in real-world practice and Misplaced Pages policy ignored the BIPM in order to use the convention that is most well recognized and causes the least confusion (e.g. 2%). That is, after all, the purpose of technical writing: to communicate to the intended audience with minimal confusion.

  Where I’m going with this is that “offical” policies must recognize the way things are really done in real life. Some at MOSNUM have advocated that if spaces are used on the fractional side, then they must also be used on the integral side; there can’t be a mix. That’s a wholy unrealistic position that doesn’t reflect reality. Changing the way things are done by so many people is simply not going to happen. Whatever MOSNUM does, it must acknowledge and accede to the way people actually operate. Digits to the left of the decimal marker get delimited with a comma. The decimal marker is a full stop. These are the realities we live with. Given this reality, nothing in our debate of how to delimit digits on the right of the decimal marker should be linked to the treatment to the left.

  As I stated above in Rationale for using “comma delimiting” with “narrow-gap delimiting”, it will be a rare number that juxtaposes comma delimiting to the left of the decimal marker and em-based gaps (narrow ones) to the right. Since there are zero other (proper) options for delimiting to the right (commas or full stops can’t be used), I’m rather suprised there is even any debate on the subject. Official recognition at MOSNUM would be very nice but I don’t see that MOSNUM needs to take a formal position one way or another with regard to delimiting numeric strings to the right of the decimal marker. Fractional-side delimiting is currently done in a wide variety of ways on Misplaced Pages: full-width spaces, full-width non-breaking spaces, narrow spaces, narrow em-based gaps, and no delimiting whatsoever; Misplaced Pages accomodates them all. However, spaces of any width produce values that can’t be pasted into Excel, and full-width ones are so damn wide they make values appear like a serial string of separate three-digit numbers. In my opinion, MOSNUM would do Misplaced Pages a favor by taking an official policy that if the fractional portion of the significand is delimited, then narrow em-based gaps (Jimp’s template/parser function) should be used.

  Further, I would favor that MOSNUM’s official policy be that the fractional portion doesn’t have to be delimited. After all, delimiting may not be suitable or desirable for many nontechnical articles. However, technical articles very often desperately need full-tilt, professional tools to automate the process of making easy-to-parse, proper numeric values (complete with relative standard uncertainty and unit symbols that don’t break from the numeric value at an end-of-line word wrap). I think that as other Misplaced Pages editors discover Jimp’s template/parser function in use in other articles, it will very quickly find favor and will be rapidly adopted wherever it is needed. Greg L (my talk) 20:43, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Here and here are two more examples using decimal coordinates. Neither are from the random sample of 100. Thunderbird2 (talk) 20:21, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

• Decimal degrees isn’t uncommon outside of Misplaced Pages; it’s a user-setting option on Google Earth and on most (if not all) GPS receivers. Did I miss your point regarding decimal coordinates? Greg L (my talk) 20:43, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

No, you didn't miss the point because there wasn't one. I was just making an inventory of articles that use more than three decimal places, so that we have some idea of how many, and what kind of articles might be affected by any new rule. I'll make one now though, which is this: I think it is significant that all 3 examples I found were in the context of geographical coordinates. It means that any new rule needs to be flexible enough to permit correct display of GPS coordinates to something like 7 decimal places. Thunderbird2 (talk) 21:06, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Spans

You should put a class on the spans and add a style to common.css, rather than using inline CSS. —Random832 21:44, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Also - Ultimately, due to template size concerns, this should be a parserfunction like "formatnum" rather than a template. —Random832 21:46, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

• Thanks. I don’t understand either of the above; however, I trust that Jimp will. Greg L (my talk) 22:25, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Well, a parser function would have to be implemented by the developers as an extension, rather than existing in template space where ordinary users could edit it. looking at this proposal, I'm not sure it's even technically feasible to implement it as a template, and earlier discussion on WT:MOSNUM seems to have been about a proposed parser function. See m:Help:ParserFunctions, Help:Magic words for information about parser functions. —Random832 23:01, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
    • I’m now venturing out of my comfort zone. If I’m reading this all correctly, it appears that {{formatnum:}} is a “magic word” rather than a template. It also appears that magic words can be made several ways, including parser functions. I can not see whether magic words can be accomplished using perl, which is what Jimp is expert in, nor do I know if Jimp is handy with parser functions.

      I can however, see that whereas most templates can be accessed by any ol’ unregistered editor who just fell off a turnip truck, there are semi-protected and fully protected templates. If that is correct, then I assume that if the objective is to have constancy after editors begin adopting the “{{delimitnum:}}” feature (or whatever it’s named), constancy can be accomplished via any number of ways. Yes?

      So would it be fair to say that if Jimp is savy only with templates, and if he can accomplish his objectives with a template, then his resulting template can be protected. Yes? I note further from Jimp’s very first post here (which started off this entire section), it seems he understands this magic word business, that’s where he is headed, and he has anticipated some of the intricacies. This suggests he is handy with all aspects of this. And if Jimp is savy with all the techniques and technologies you’re speaking of, then I assume he will employ the most suitable technique. So it may be that you and Jimp are heading in the very same direction (parser functions) and the only reason for your perceiving the need offer your caution is due to my imprecise use of language like “template.” Am I missing anything here? Greg L (my talk) 00:26, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

• To avoid confusion, I’ve gone back and changed all instances of “template” in my proposals to “template/parser function“. I wanted to be sure to mention that change here so your efforts here at steering me in the correct direction are understood in their proper context. Thanks. Greg L (my talk) 21:44, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I do understand what Random832 is saying with respect to parser functions (which are a kind of magic word) verses templates. And I agree with him that it would be much better to have this {{delimitnum:}}/{{delimitnum}} be one of the former rather than the latter.* As for being savy with parser functions ... well I can use them but, as Random832 notes, not being a developer, I can't create them. Now, what I can do is write a template which could achieve what we're after but there'd be limitations. Firstly, templates don't seem to be able to cope with calculations on parameters with more than a dozen (or so) significant figures. We could work around this, if need be, by splitting the numeral up into strings of digits but this is very much less than optimal. Secondly, as trim as I might be able to get the template, it'll still be huge in terms of pre-expand size compared to a parser function, thereby limiting its applicability for use in other templates. Neither of these concerns apply to parser functions. I'd therefore propose that we instead aim at having {{delimitnum:}} created as a parser function (i.e. a magic word) or, perhaps *better still (or at least maybe more likely to achieve), have {{delimitnum:}} do the delimiting and save the addition of uncertainty, base–ten exponentiation and unit symbol (the easy bits) for a template. If our pleas to the developers fall on deaf ears (or bind eyes as the case may be), then let's look at a template solution. Jɪmp 06:19, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

So… are you saying that your preferred method would be to solicit the assistance of a developer to make a parser function? Greg L (my talk) 06:26, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

It's not the only way of doing this but, if successful, it would be the best one. Of course, the template solution is not bad: when I say "huge" I'm comparing it to the fifteen bytes of of a potential {{delimitnum:}} and chances are that the need to go beyond twelve digits will be rare enough that even typing the code out in full wouldn't cause a problem. I'm not sure how willing the developers would be to help us out here but it might be at least worth a shot. Jɪmp 06:47, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it does indeed look like the significand will very rarely have more than a total of 12 digits to deal with. You are referring to a limit of twelve digits in the significand are you not(?) and not twelve digits total—including both the uncertainty and the exponent? And do tell: what is a “developer”? Is that a Misplaced Pages term for someone who has the ability to code the inner workings of what makes the Misplaced Pages user environment work? If so, do you know how to contact them? Greg L (my talk) 17:58, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, twelve digits in the significant. No calculation would need be done on the uncertainty or the exponent, they can simply be treated as character strings. Yeah, someone codes WP's inner workings. That's about right. To get hold of them we'd go via BugZilla. If this is our route, though, it would be best first to drum up a bit of support for the thing.

As for having commas only and never spaces before the decimal point, take a look here. Sure, this is meant not only to cater for English speakers but nor is it meant to cater only to non-English speakers. Just for fun, I went and had a prévisualisation of {{formatnum:123456789}} does on the French Wikipédia. It puts regular thick non-copy-and-pastable spaces in, they were non-breaking though. Surely they'd be better off with your copy-and-pastable thin spaces. So that may be a line we could take: this might be of benifit in other parts of the Wikiworld.

Jɪmp 06:44, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Joining the discussion

Thanks, Thunderbird, for directing me here. I'd like to help.

A few thoughts:

First, good job, both of you. I think there's a chance you can make this fly.

Second, I agree that there 's really no reason to do it unless the goal is to make it, eventually, the MoS standard format. That means you have to consider what it'll be possible to get consensus on. In particular, that means spaces to the left of the decimal are a no good -- it doesn't matter that they're logical, they're too alien for too many people.

Third, I think the order of arguments should have the uncertainty last, else users will be confused about the need for the double bar. The use of an uncertainty term is far less common than any of the other arguments, I think.

Fourth, I'm using Firefox on XP and I find the 0.2 em spaces pretty much invisible. Maybe I'm unusual, but I prefer the 0.3. Also, I agree that this could be the last aspect to be set in stone.

Fifth, I'm not sure where it went but someone (one of you, probably) suggested that groups of four wouldn't be broken (hence, e.g., 12.345 6789). That's readable to me, but needs to be discussed, as it will confuse people.

• Thanks for joining us atakdoug; all good advice and input. (Thanks T-bird.) Regarding having two to four digits in the last group, see again Nutshell, which I’ve updated regarding this point. Greg L (my talk) 21:56, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

If I can help, ask. And when we finish this, maybe we can move onto the issue that took me to the MoS talk page: linking of dates... atakdoug (talk) 08:56, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Supporters

User_talk:Jimp

User_talk:Thunderbird2

User_talk:Atakdoug

Notability of Teragram

Thanks for your message. I don't feel strongly about this, but from my position within the search community (I've worked at Lycos and FAST and am now responsible for search at Gerson Lehrman Group), they seem like one of the top players in applied multilingual computational linguistics, even though they are smaller than Inxight and Basis Technology (which is also privately held and also deserves an article). After all, WP is not a paper encyclopedia. --Macrakis (talk) 16:10, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

By the way, I agree that the dabnote in Kilogram is strange. Instead, I've created a dab page for "teragram", a term which will rarely be used in the sense 10 grams, but often for the company -- try the Google search teragram, where the top 8 results are all about the company, except #4, which is a Misplaced Pages mirror of the kilogram page! --Macrakis (talk) 14:29, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

• That seems to be the perfect way to accomplish that. Thanks. Greg L (my talk) 20:16, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Image:Freedom_From_Fear.jpg

I have tagged Image:Freedom_From_Fear.jpg as {{orphaned fairuse}}. In order for the image to be kept at Misplaced Pages, it must be included in at least one article. If this image is being used as a link target instead of displayed inline, please add {{not orphan}} to the image description page to prevent it being accidentally marked as orphaned again. Calliopejen1 (talk) 17:37, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I removed this from a couple articles where it could have been replaced by free images or where there were too many nonfree images. It's copyrighted, not public domain. Calliopejen1 (talk) 17:38, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Gradual continencets

OK, I just misunderstood (or just plain didn't understand) the caption. --Slashme (talk) 05:52, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

The new version is perfect: unambiguous and readable. --Slashme (talk) 08:44, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

joining the military

greg, i'm mildly interested in joining the military, any branch. Is it possible to join if I only have one eye? Monikker23 (talk) 00:37, 25 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Monikker23 (talk • contribs) 00:35, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• I’m flattered you’d ask but am certainly not an expert on all-things-military. I assume my account of my son’s experiences in the Navy (trying to get into the SEALs) lead you to believe I have a more extensive knowledge about the U.S. Military than I actually do. I’d check out this site at U.S.Military.com, which says, ‘no’ and explains that if your good eye is 20/20, the other eye can be no worse than 20/400. However, I would not accept this information as the final word; the career path you’re contemplating is an important decision. For a proper answer, I suggest you call a local recruiter; perhaps waivers might be available under certain circumstances. Greg L (my talk) 02:38, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Steel balls and copy-editing

Hi Greg,

Glad you found my edits worthwhile!

Those steel balls of yours are pretty impressive ;-) --Slashme (talk) 09:30, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Templates for numeral display

I can't easily form an opinion on this, as few or none of the articles I'm involved in would have this formatting issue. Perhaps a good place to gain support would be on talk pages of WP:WPM and WP:WPPhys. linas (talk) 03:51, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

p.s. Fascinating story about your son. Tell him he's lucky and he's doing well, and keep at it. It took me more'n four decades to figure out what he's already learned. (Well, OK, so maybe I'm better at math than he is :-)) Keep at him about going to college: its one thing to be fit & strong and a whole 'nother to be fit & strong & smart. linas (talk) 05:04, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the kind words Linas. I passed them onto my son. Greg L (my talk) 06:20, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Translational motion

Hello, I was guided to your talk page from your pretty animation on translational motion. I noticed that on that image, the boundary is adiabatic, and wondered whether you could make a similar animation with an isothermal boundary to show thermal energy being transferred to the gas. I must admit I have no idea on how to model the energy transfer from the boundary to the gas, though... Oh, here is a vague idea : model it as phonon modes, each time there is a collision determine probabilistically in which mode it is, giving a certain speed to the point where the collision occurs, and model the wall as being very massive, so that the speed of the atom after collision is v_after=v_ini+v_wall. Does it make sense? MPerrin from the fr wiki.--67.71.74.85 (talk) 07:36, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

First, my compliments on your English-language skills. What you are seeking is an animation of a system that is not in equilibrium and the gas is getting hotter until the animation loops. To pull this off, the walls would simply have to be hotter than the gas so the helium atoms would rebound from the wall—on average—with greater speed after each encounter. This could be accomplished several ways.

1. One way would require only a very simple algorithm whereby the 83 yoctokelvin atoms are given an extra kick of precisely the same additional amount—say, an extra 100 yoctokelvin with each impact.
2. A second technique would change the speed to an exact value representing the temperature of the wall as if its atoms had no Maxwell distribution; slow atoms would speed up to a temperature of 200 yk up and very fast ones would slow down to 200 yk. Each time a 200 yk atom rebounded from a wall, it would distribute its energy into the herd and cool back down. However the group temperature would slowly increase from 83 yk and would approach ever closer to 200 yk (depending on how long the animation runs).
3. A third method could entail a more complex algorithm wherein the wall’s “temperature” follows a Maxwell distribution and is modeled as if it is iron. Thus, helium atoms rebounding from such a wall would be entirely dominated by the temperature of the wall and the incoming velocity could be ignored. I like this last approach because it’s a higher fidelity model that better represents the actual kinetics of an out-of-equilibrium system between helium and iron; you could watch a slow atom drifting casually into the wall and it would almost always be kicked away at a much greater—but far from predictable predictable—speeed. However, unusually fast atoms would often slow down after encountering such a wall. Regardless of the speed of the incoming atom, its energy after the rebound would follow the Maxwell distribution of 200 yk. Anyway…

Unfortunately, I don't have the capability at this time of creating anything beyond what you already see. I've got a friend who’s a programmer and I’ve been trying to get him interested in creating an animation tool so I can create a new version of the existing animation that has higher frame rate. I would imagine it would be possible to make it so the walls could be either hotter or colder than the gas. However, the animation tool I’m envisioning (with perfectly “reflective” walls) wouldn’t have to “know” anything about the Maxwell distribution curve; the curve is a natural byproduct of spherical-particle rebound kinetics where all you have are the velocity vectors of perfectly elastic collisions between spherical (circular) particles. Now I’m curious; why do you seek a non-equilibrium animation? Greg L (my talk) 19:56, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for cross-posting and for your compliment. You know, my job as a physicist requires me to publish in English, so one way or another I had to learn it—or at least scientific English. Plus, I like speaking in English, it's cool! :-)

The reason I wanted such an animation is that we were having this discussion at the fr:Projet:Physique about terms like heat, thermal transfer and heat transfer (closest translations I can find). I've seen on the talk pages of these article that you've had some discussion about these terms as well. Just so you know, we agreed that heat transfer is redundant—a transfer of transfer of energy?—and should be abandonned, and that heat and thermal transfer are two ways of telling the same thing: heat means energy is being transferred, while thermal transfer means energy is being transferred.

Anyway, from this discussion I realized we had a good image illustrating temperature microscopically, but nothing for heat, and I started wondering if it could be done and how it would look like... Let me comment on your proposals.

1. This looks to me as if we are continuously adding some energy in the system, and that no thermal equilibrium will ever be reached.
2. That's a good idea, even though I'd like to see some atoms slowing down, and I don't really know the physical meaning of giving the same temperature (normal speed) after each collision. I fear that in a large system, we would have a non-maxwellian distribution near the boundary and a maxwellian one inside the tank. Anyway, heat would be exchanged and the system would reach an equilibrium.
3. The conceptual difficulty that I have is that we are describing the gas microscopically, whereas the wall has macroscopic properties such as a temperature (the gas does have one, but only to give a microscopic initial condition). My initial propposal would have been to make the wall microscopic at the time of a collision, while yours is to give a temperature to atoms after a collision, in a very similar way to the Boltzmann equation (although I must admit I only get the general idea behind this equation). I think both approach are valid.

If you can't easily create such an animation, then forget it. I just thought you might have a program ready for it with a few minor modifications. If I have enough courage, I'm going to try and see what Matlab can do for me. MPerrin from the fr wiki.

Fair use rationale for Image:Freedom From Fear.jpg

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delimitnum

I have written up the proposal as a bug report at bugzilla:13025. —Random832 13:34, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Note that I could not understand (and the examples were not self-consistent; even the one you specifically referred to, the third bullet point, is inconsistent, placing one of the closing tags immediately after a digit group and the other after the exponent) the recommendation for where to put the closing </span> tag, so I made my own recommendation that it be placed directly after each digit group, i.e. 1.234<span...>567</span><span...>89</span>(1) - do you have any objection to that method? —Random832 16:04, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

• Answered on your talk page. Greg L (my talk) 16:36, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I thought I was perfectly clear, but just to clarify: this is intended to allow readers who are dissatisfied with the default appearance to change what gap width they see in their own monobook.css (or even to change it for no gaps at all, or to see commas, or any other crazy combination of things, if they want), while leaving what everyone else (anyone who has nothing for it in their monobook, or non-logged-in readers) sees to be the site default. Can you explain to me just what differences are needed for the digit 1 vs the others? figured out from examples —Random832 19:55, 15 February 2008 (UTC)