Revision as of 01:17, 18 February 2008

Talk:John Zizioulas/Archive

Problems with Editing Zizioulas Article

The previous versionof the article contained a section entitled 'Traditionalist Orthodox view of the Work of John Zizioulas', which articlates a fringe theory.

• This section consists almost entirely assertions that Zizioulas' theology and churchmanship are not in line with what was being called 'traditional Orthodoxy', and Zizioulas is accused of 'heterodoxy'. Since Zizioulas is the Greek Orthodox Metropolitan of Pergamon, such statements do not reflect the Greek Orthodox Church's own view, and constitute a contentious, minority POV. Therefore this section violates both WP:NPOV and WP:BLPSTYLE ('Biographies of living people should be written responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone').
• The only references in this section are made to an article by Lucian Turcescu whose conclusions are disputed in academic scholarship, to a questionable and possibly extremist on-line article entitled Is the Theologian Ioannis Zizioulas proclaiming Orthodoxy?, and to a Missionary booklet in Serbian, each of which accuse Zizioulas theology of being non-traditional and heterodox. None of these sources meet Misplaced Pages's standards for reliable and non-contentious sources. Specifically the on-line article asserts that we must state that Zizioulas’s theological style and argumentation can be proven deceitful, as he often stands too far from the truth. This man’ s individual thinking in no way represents the orthodox traditional theology but only personal and, at times, peculiar theological aspects having nothing to do with the common experience shared and faithfully practised by the great majority of orthodox believers down the Christian centuries. Again, according to Misplaced Pages policy, these views should never be on a BLP page ('Material about living persons available solely in questionable sources or sources of dubious value should not be used, either as a source or as an external link').
• The traditionalist material was occupying half of the article. Therefore undue weight was being given to the material in the section.
• Cebactokpatop had also inserted a picture of Zizioulas sitting beside the Pope which he had entitled Picture of the John Zizioulas (black robe) revealing his true face and position. This is malicious.
• It is not neutral (and so does not conform to WP:NPOV) to equate 'traditional Orthodoxy' with the views of a minority group within Orthodoxy.

The fact that Cebactokpatop is unable to provide a variety of mainstream sources concerning John Zizioulas - who has amassed a large bibliography of secondary literature in English - points to his edits having the purpose of promoting a fringe theory.

I have tried to negotiate with Cebastokpatop to make the article neutral. However, he has made repeated personal attacks. He has repeatedly deleted constructive edits which I have made (e.g. addition of extra sections of text, correction and expansion of Zizioulas biographical details, addition of extra bibliography, addition of references and footnotes) without justification.

Looking at his edit-history, it seems that this is the only article which he is interested in contributing to, and it seems that his only reason for contributing to it is to ensure that the John Zizioulas article is dominated by his material regarding 'traditional Orthodoxy'.

I therefore do not believe that it will be possible to negotiate with him without mediation, which I am therefore requesting.

Seminarist (talk) 21:03, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Please revert the article to the revision dated: 16:20, 15 February 2008. Let the other party that arrived several days ago proove his claims. While he provide the evidences, that revision should be on display. It is actually, last revision before situation went out of control. Thank you.

Cebactokpatop (talk) 19:52, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

{{editprotected}}

Demonstrate consensus for change

When an article is protected as a result of an edit war, it is protected in whatever version it is in when the administrator locates it. It is against policy for administrators to edit the contents of the protected page except in very limited circumstances, including (1) obvious vandalism, (2) uncontroversial changes unrelated to the dispute, or (3) changes for which clear consensus exists. May I suggest that the two of you try to reach consensus during this protection period? You may wish to seek additional feedback from WP:3O to help consensus emerge if the two of you cannot come to terms. --Moonriddengirl 21:49, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Problematic areas in Seminarist's text

1. noted theologian: His theology is not Orthodox, and for that reason, he is not Orthodox theologian. Since he is, sadly, still member of the Orthodox clergy, having that assertion implies that he is Orthodox theologian. Text needs to be enhanced to include qualification on whose theologian he is.

• • This is unreasonable. Zizioulas is widely recognised to be a theologian (I have already provided appropriate citation), and he is the Greek Orthodox Metropolitan of Pergamon; as such, it is not unreasonable to call him a "theologian", and it is not unreasonable to call him an "Orthodox theologian". Seminarist (talk)

2. "Traditionalist" Orthodox: Traditional Orthodox are not to be referenced like that. Added quotes are Seminarist's personal opinion, and are viloation of Wiki's NPOV.

• • It seems that you are not aware of WP:NPOV. NPOV does not mean no point of view. See WP:YESPOV, which states that 'the neutral point of view is a point of view, not the absence or elimination of viewpoints.' 'The neutral point of view is a point of view that is neutral, that is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject.' Articles in which multiple viewpoints are presented must 'studiously refrain from asserting which is better'. 'Readers should be allowed to form their own opinions.'Seminarist (talk)

• • To identify traditional Orthodoxy with one group who claim that an Orthodox Metropolitan is not a traditional Orthodox and is heterodox is contentious and fails to conform to NPOV. Quotes are added to signify that this group claims to have a monopoly on traditional Orthodoxy, not to signify that they are wrong. To place contentious claims in quotation marks is a reasonable way of seeking to preserve NPOV.Seminarist (talk)

3. Certain Orthodox, who style themselves as "traditionalist": Same as above. This assertion is personal opinion of Seminarist, and viloates NPOV.

• • Response as above.Seminarist (talk)

4. Positive Assessments in Greece and Serbia: Two bishops named as "positive assessments" are Serbians. Where did the Greeks go? If he wants to add "positive assessments", for the article to be neutral as per Wiki's standards, we will have to add "negative assessments" as well.

• • You are dissimulating here. I have never objected to the netural reporting of the content of positive or negative assessments. I have sought that such descriptions conform to Misplaced Pages policies on WP:NPOV, WP:PROVEIT, WP:BLP.Seminarist (talk)

5. Seminarist removed complete section citing Traditional Orthodox sources with regards to the JZ theology and work. Even though, all references in that section were provided, he continued with the abuse of the Wiki by continuous removal of that section. Just because he is the fan of the JZ, his personal orientation should not be emphasized on the Wiki's article. Seminarist needs to learn that other opinions are valid on Wiki, as well.

• • No. You need to learn what Misplaced Pages's policy on NPOV means. I am tired of your incivility - please conform from now on to WP:CIVILITY.Seminarist (talk)

"Unproven" Claims by Seminarist

1. He claims that article of the magazine Italia Ortodossa is "extremist". As a proof, he said that it "looked (to him) as extremist". Again, his own opinion - viloation of the NPOV.

• • I did not call the article extremist. I said it was questionable and possibly extremist. You are twisting my words. Please do not misquote me again.Seminarist (talk)

• • The article Is the Theologian Ioannis Zizioulas proclaiming Orthodoxy? is quite clearly a questionable source. This is evident to anyone who reads the text. The article never once quotes Zizioulas, consists almost entirely of unsupported assertions, and then concludes we must state that Zizioulas’s theological style and argumentation can be proven deceitful, as he often stands too far from the truth. This man’ s individual thinking in no way represents the orthodox traditional theology but only personal and, at times, peculiar theological aspects having nothing to do with the common experience shared and faithfully practised by the great majority of orthodox believers down the Christian centuries. According to WP:SOURCES 'Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for fact-checking. Such sources include websites and publications that express views that are widely acknowledged as extremist, are promotional in nature, or rely heavily on rumors and personal opinions. Questionable sources should only be used in articles about themselves.' Therefore, since this article is clearly a questionable source, it cannot be cited in the John Zizioulas article.Seminarist (talk)

• • Again, WP:NPOVdoes not mean no point of view. WP:YESPOV, states that 'the neutral point of view is a point of view, not the absence or elimination of viewpoints.' 'The neutral point of view is a point of view that is neutral, that is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject.'Seminarist (talk)

2. He claims that book of Rodoljub Lazic is extremist. After asking him on what basis he has put that claim forward, no answer was obtained. I have asked him if he read the book, and no answer was given. Again, his claim contains no proof and represents his own opinion - violation of NPOV.

• • Oncemore, you are not telling the truth. I did not claim that that book (which is a Missionary booklet) was extremist; I said it was 'questionable and possible extremist'. You previously accused me without justification of being 'very low' and of making assertions 'bordering with the term - lies'; in fact, it seems to me that such allegations apply more to someone who repeatedly dissimulates through misquotation.Seminarist (talk)

• • According to WP:PROVEIT, 'The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material'. That means that it is not up to me to prove that the missionary booklet IS a questionable source, but that it is up to you to prove that it is NOT a questionable source.Seminarist (talk)

Cebactokpatop (talk) 20:28, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

What you did on this page, after I added two sections, is reflection of your attitude you expressed in the article as well. You deliberately keep removing my texts replacing it with your own. Normal civil way would be to add your comments below my text. Instead, you are trying to "prove" yourself "right" through the excessive amounts of text placed in the frontal position of the page. Very low indeed. I think that any attempt to come to the consensus would be pure waste of the time, and will therefore ask moderators to read the revision of the article I already pointed to and come up with the verdict.

Cebactokpatop (talk) 00:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

It is not unacceptable to respond to your claims point by point. I am very happy to seek assistance in reaching consensus, and, indeed, have already asked for such assistance. But it is disappointing to me that you will not actually consider the issues one by one. Seminarist (talk) 00:50, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I have not detected even the smallest desire on your side to learn that there are people out there who do not agree with either JZ or his followers. If you were expecting arguing from my side in typical internet forum fashion - one by one sentence, you are badly mistaken about the mind of the Traditional Orthodox.

How low you can be is in the fact that you even modified my own text adding quotation around the first word in the title on this page - Unproven Claims by Seminarist. If you are by any chance real seminarist of some Orthodox Seminary, I can only be sorry for those faithful Orthodox people who would, in some future, be exposed to the clergy like yourself. In the end, followers of JZ cannot be any better, as the spring they are drinking from, is tainted.

Cebactokpatop (talk) 01:17, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

To the Third Opinion Jury

Please read the revision dated 16:20, 15 February 2008 and come to the verdict whether it is in line with the Wiki's policy on neutrality or not. The point I an trying to make is that section titled "Traditional Orthodox View" is ballast to the remaining "pro" sections of the article and without it, the whole article would not be neutral. Thank you.

Cebactokpatop (talk) 01:17, 18 February 2008 (UTC)