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/Archive 1 /Archive 2 /Archive 3 /Archive 4 /Archive 5 /Archive 6 Talk:Truth/insults?

Old discussions moved to /Archive 6

The Lead Section

I'm starting a new section because the discussions above have become too hard to follow. As of this moment the lead section reads:

The search for the nature of truth is a major topic of philosophy. From one point of view, an understanding of the term, 'truth' can be reached by looking at what role, if any, the predicate "is true" plays in statements such as "'Snow is white' is true." From that point of view, such statements are seen to be evaluating the statement "Snow is white," but from a different point of view statements of the form, "It is true that snow is white" are redundant, it is sufficient to say simply, "Snow is white." (See the section on Deflationary Theories.) This is only one of the issues about truth that philosophers discuss.

It seems to me that everything after the first sentence should be deleted. It is simply a preview of one (of many) issues discussed later in the article. It does not server to introduce the article. Does anyone object if I just delete everything after the first sentence? --Nate Ladd 09:24, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

I can't see any value in the first sentence, either, for reasons stated above. Much of the article has nothing to do with philosophy, so why imply that the article is about truth in regard to philosophy? Banno 10:38, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

DotSix replies: 1. The search for truth is one of the major topics of philosophy, so, from my point of view, ANYTHING that has to do with the terms 'true' or 'truth' (or related terms like 'verity', for example) is relevant. But as I see our situation here, the issue is a difference between two points of view in philosophy being represented fairly in the lead section of this article. On the one hand the point of view that a statement of the form, "Snow is white is true" is seen as evaluating the statement, "Snow is white." And on the other hand a different point of view which does not agree, it sees statements like "Snow is white is true" as redundant, and that saying simply, "Snow is white" is perfectly sufficient. See Deflationary theories in the article.

2. From my point of view, in resolving disputes over neutrality issues, it is far better that we acknowledge that all sides must be presented fairly, and make at least a college try at presenting the other sides fairly, particularly in a place so prominant as the introduction (the lead section), to an article about truth, don't you agree? -- DotSix

See Npov#A_consequence:_writing_for_the_enemy:

Those who constantly attempt to advocate their views on politically charged topics, and who seem not to care about whether other points of view are represented fairly, are violating the non-bias policy ("write unbiasedly"). But the policy also entails that it is our job to speak for the other side, and not just avoid advocating our own views. If we don't commit ourselves to doing that, Misplaced Pages will be weaker for it. We should all be engaged in explaining each other's points of view as sympathetically as possible.

In saying this, we are spelling out what might have been obvious from an initial reading of the policy. If each of us is permitted to contribute biased stuff, then how is it possible that the policy is ever violated? The policy says, "Go thou and write unbiasedly". If that doesn't entail that each of us should fairly represent views with which we disagree, then what does it mean? Maybe you think it means, "Represent your own view fairly, and let others have a say." But consider, if we each take responsibility for the entire article when we hit "save", then when we make a change that represents our own views but not contrary views, or represents contrary views unfairly or incompletely, surely we are adding bias to Misplaced Pages. Does it make sense not to take responsibility for the entire article? Does it make sense to take sentences and say, "These are mine"? Perhaps, but in a project that is so strongly and explicitly committed to neutrality, that attitude seems out of place.

The other side might very well find your attempts to characterize their views substandard, but it's the thought that counts. In resolving disputes over neutrality issues, it's far better that we acknowledge that all sides must be presented fairly, and make at least a college try at presenting the other sides fairly. That will be appreciated much more than not trying at all.

-- DotSix

As it stands now, there are even DIFFERENT POINTS OF VIEW concerning EVEN THE FIRST SENTENCE, "The search for truth is a major topic of philosophy." Some do not agree that describes the actual state of affairs. How can any of us object to giving all points of view equal billing, as per WikiPolicy NPOV? -- DotSix

RE:"Snow is white is true"

• 1. it is not ALWAYS true that snow is white - sometimes it is gray, sometimes yellow - it is a contingent fact. Snow CAN be any colour at all - even black
  2. it depends on what the meaning of "is" is. Is snow white "in-itself" or is it (usually) perceived to be white?
  3. Does "white" mean "reflects all frequencies in the visible spectrum"?
  4. the earlier "3 is less than 4 is true" was less ambiguous, but perhaps packed the issue too tightly in one use of "truth".
• Is there a difference in the meaning of truth when we say "Snow is white is true" vs when we say "3 is less than 4 is true". I think, actually, this points out that there are different standards of truth for each of those assertions.
• I have considered the proposition "snow is white" and find it generally to be true
• --JimWae 18:43, 2005 July 20 (UTC)

Four is more than three by definition of the cardinal numbers ] so I have to ask you what does that have to do with disagreement over the conroversial term, truth here? --DotSix

DotSix added this text to the lead section: Some do not agree that statement describes the actual state of affairs, they insist it should read, "The search for the nature of truth is a major topic of philosophy."

Please do not insert your own personal remarks into the article. Making references to the current dispute within the article text is unprofessional. Rhobite 19:16, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

From my point of view it's not "personal remarks," it's an accurate description of just how controversial the term, 'truth' is in the real world, as mirrored here in talk:truth. Are you taking issue with the WikiPolicy that all points of view should be given equal billing, as quoted above? -- DotSix

What are you talking about? I'm taking issue with the fact that you're repeatedly inserting your own comment about the dispute into the article text. Saying "they insist it should read" does not belong in the article. Furthermore the NPOV policy does not say anything to the effect of "all points of view should be given equal billing". If that is the meaning you obtain from reading WP:NPOV, you need to re-read it. Rhobite 19:56, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

DotSix Replies: With all due respect, from my point of view you appear to be mistaken, brother. 8^) Here is where wikipedia:point of view says clearly that all points of view should be given equal billing (be clearly, accurately, and fairly described):

A point of view (POV) in Misplaced Pages is an often important part of articles which treat controversial subjects.

An article which clearly, accurately, and fairly describes all points of view will, by definition, be in accordance with Misplaced Pages's official "Neutral Point of View" policy.

I will accept your apology for your misunderstanding now. 8^) -- DotSix

DotSix, I'd like you to read what you wrote and honestly answer these questions: Would you understand it if you read it in a paper encyclopedia? Isn't it confusing to people who are not familiar with the dispute on this talk page? Imagine if you'd written a news article and broken from the story to write "my editor insists that the previous sentence should be worded..." Rhobite 20:06, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

Dot67 - you are losing whatever support you had from me by calling my attempts at compromise vandalism. I have made attempts to figure out what you have been grumbling about -- the eventual aim is to remove the POV label, no? If you cannot distinguish vandalism from compromise, nor POV from NPOV, I suggest you either sit & watch more, or go elsewhere to apply your skills. Oh, and NPOV does not mean all sides get equal billing - yet, in fact, you are insisting that one side get predominant billing --JimWae 22:37, 2005 July 20 (UTC)

Archiving and editing other people's comments - RFC

I suggest that the repeated unnecessary archiving of very recent and relevant material and editing of the comments of other users is an improper practice. Place this alongside repeated reversion and referring to the comments of others as "obscurantist" and "vandalism" - I've refereed this to RfC. Banno 20:34, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

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