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Philosophy NA‑class

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/Archive 1 /Archive 2 /Archive 3 /Archive 4 /Archive 5 /Archive 6 Talk:Truth/insults?

Old discussions moved to /Archive 6

The Lead Section

I'm starting a new section because the discussions above have become too hard to follow. As of this moment the lead section reads:

The search for the nature of truth is a major topic of philosophy. From one point of view, an understanding of the term, 'truth' can be reached by looking at what role, if any, the predicate "is true" plays in statements such as "'Snow is white' is true." From that point of view, such statements are seen to be evaluating the statement "Snow is white," but from a different point of view statements of the form, "It is true that snow is white" are redundant, it is sufficient to say simply, "Snow is white." (See the section on Deflationary Theories.) This is only one of the issues about truth that philosophers discuss.

It seems to me that everything after the first sentence should be deleted. It is simply a preview of one (of many) issues discussed later in the article. It does not server to introduce the article. Does anyone object if I just delete everything after the first sentence? --Nate Ladd 09:24, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

I can't see any value in the first sentence, either, for reasons stated above. Much of the article has nothing to do with philosophy, so why imply that the article is about truth in regard to philosophy? Banno 10:38, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

DotSix replies: 1. The search for truth is one of the major topics of philosophy, so, from my point of view, ANYTHING that has to do with the terms 'true' or 'truth' (or related terms like 'verity', for example) is relevant. But as I see our situation here, the issue is a difference between two points of view in philosophy being represented fairly in the lead section of this article. On the one hand the point of view that a statement of the form, "Snow is white is true" is seen as evaluating the statement, "Snow is white." And on the other hand a different point of view which does not agree, it sees statements like "Snow is white is true" as redundant, and that saying simply, "Snow is white" is perfectly sufficient. See Deflationary theories in the article.

2. From my point of view, in resolving disputes over neutrality issues, it is far better that we acknowledge that all sides must be presented fairly, and make at least a college try at presenting the other sides fairly, particularly in a place so prominant as the introduction (the lead section), to an article about truth, don't you agree? -- DotSix

See Npov#A_consequence:_writing_for_the_enemy:

Those who constantly attempt to advocate their views on politically charged topics, and who seem not to care about whether other points of view are represented fairly, are violating the non-bias policy ("write unbiasedly"). But the policy also entails that it is our job to speak for the other side, and not just avoid advocating our own views. If we don't commit ourselves to doing that, Misplaced Pages will be weaker for it. We should all be engaged in explaining each other's points of view as sympathetically as possible.

In saying this, we are spelling out what might have been obvious from an initial reading of the policy. If each of us is permitted to contribute biased stuff, then how is it possible that the policy is ever violated? The policy says, "Go thou and write unbiasedly". If that doesn't entail that each of us should fairly represent views with which we disagree, then what does it mean? Maybe you think it means, "Represent your own view fairly, and let others have a say." But consider, if we each take responsibility for the entire article when we hit "save", then when we make a change that represents our own views but not contrary views, or represents contrary views unfairly or incompletely, surely we are adding bias to Misplaced Pages. Does it make sense not to take responsibility for the entire article? Does it make sense to take sentences and say, "These are mine"? Perhaps, but in a project that is so strongly and explicitly committed to neutrality, that attitude seems out of place.

The other side might very well find your attempts to characterize their views substandard, but it's the thought that counts. In resolving disputes over neutrality issues, it's far better that we acknowledge that all sides must be presented fairly, and make at least a college try at presenting the other sides fairly. That will be appreciated much more than not trying at all.

-- DotSix

As it stands now, there are even DIFFERENT POINTS OF VIEW concerning EVEN THE FIRST SENTENCE, "The search for truth is a major topic of philosophy." Some do not agree that describes the actual state of affairs. How can any of us object to giving all points of view equal billing, as per WikiPolicy NPOV? -- DotSix

RE:"Snow is white is true"

• 1. it is not ALWAYS true that snow is white - sometimes it is gray, sometimes yellow - it is a contingent fact. Snow CAN be any colour at all - even black
  2. it depends on what the meaning of "is" is. Is snow white "in-itself" or is it (usually) perceived to be white?
  3. Does "white" mean "reflects all frequencies in the visible spectrum"?
  4. the earlier "3 is less than 4 is true" was less ambiguous, but perhaps packed the issue too tightly in one use of "truth".
• Is there a difference in the meaning of truth when we say "Snow is white is true" vs when we say "3 is less than 4 is true". I think, actually, this points out that there are different standards of truth for each of those assertions.
• I have considered the proposition "snow is white" and find it generally to be true
• --JimWae 18:43, 2005 July 20 (UTC)

Four is more than three by definition of the cardinal numbers ] so I have to ask you what does that have to do with disagreement over the conroversial term, truth here? --DotSix

DotSix added this text to the lead section: Some do not agree that statement describes the actual state of affairs, they insist it should read, "The search for the nature of truth is a major topic of philosophy."

Please do not insert your own personal remarks into the article. Making references to the current dispute within the article text is unprofessional. Rhobite 19:16, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

From my point of view it's not "personal remarks," it's an accurate description of just how controversial the term, 'truth' is in the real world, as mirrored here in talk:truth. Are you taking issue with the WikiPolicy that all points of view should be given equal billing, as quoted above? -- DotSix

What are you talking about? I'm taking issue with the fact that you're repeatedly inserting your own comment about the dispute into the article text. Saying "they insist it should read" does not belong in the article. Furthermore the NPOV policy does not say anything to the effect of "all points of view should be given equal billing". If that is the meaning you obtain from reading WP:NPOV, you need to re-read it. Rhobite 19:56, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

DotSix Replies: With all due respect, from my point of view you appear to be mistaken, brother. 8^) Here is where wikipedia:point of view says clearly that all points of view should be given equal billing (be clearly, accurately, and fairly described):

A point of view (POV) in Misplaced Pages is an often important part of articles which treat controversial subjects.

An article which clearly, accurately, and fairly describes all points of view will, by definition, be in accordance with Misplaced Pages's official "Neutral Point of View" policy.

I will accept your apology for your misunderstanding now. 8^) -- DotSix

• it does not say EQUAL billing ...

That's your point of view, but I think you are mistaken, it says clearly,

An article which clearly, accurately, and fairly describes all points of view will, by definition, be in accordance with Misplaced Pages's official "Neutral Point of View" policy.

I will accept your apology for your misunderstanding now. 8^) -- DotSix

it also says:

Now an important qualification: Articles that compare views need not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views. We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by only a small minority of people deserved as much attention as a majority view.

(Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view#What is the neutral point of view?)

DotSix replies: That statement is no longer operative. It did not comport with the principle that argumentum ad numerum, an appeal to the popularity of a point of view, is logical fallacy. See informal logic. -- 67.182.157.6 13:03, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

You actually edited an official policy in order to justify your position! I'm impressed! Banno 21:12, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Your rudeness to Jim was uncalled for. He is correct. Banno 10:26, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

DotSix Replies: 1. Showing reasonable grounds for disagreement with someone's remarks in talk:truth is not rudeness, sir, it is called debate; calling it 'rudeness' amounts to just another piece of argument _ad hominem_ on your part, which is more logical fallacy. See informal logic.

2. The point of view you and Jim are pushing here amounts to the logical fallacy of argument _ad populum_, that only the majority view is worthy of serious consideration. -- 67.182.157.6 13:03, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

• ... -- and the compromise version I offered still gives prominent billing to deflationary view - and little to any other --JimWae 23:13, 2005 July 20 (UTC)

DotSix, I'd like you to read what you wrote and honestly answer these questions: Would you understand it if you read it in a paper encyclopedia? Isn't it confusing to people who are not familiar with the dispute on this talk page? Imagine if you'd written a news article and broken from the story to write "my editor insists that the previous sentence should be worded..." Rhobite 20:06, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

Dot67 - you are losing whatever support you had from me by calling my attempts at compromise vandalism. I have made attempts to figure out what you have been grumbling about -- the eventual aim is to remove the POV label, no? If you cannot distinguish vandalism from compromise, nor POV from NPOV, I suggest you either sit & watch more, or go elsewhere to apply your skills. Oh, and NPOV does not mean all sides get equal billing - yet, in fact, you are insisting that one side get predominant billing --JimWae 22:37, 2005 July 20 (UTC)

That's your point of view, but I think you are mistaken, it says clearly,

An article which clearly, accurately, and fairly describes all points of view will, by definition, be in accordance with Misplaced Pages's official "Neutral Point of View" policy.

I will accept your apology for your misunderstanding now. 8^) -- DotSix

JimWae wrote: "It is unnecessarily stacking the deck to phrase it in such a way that 'truth' has a "'nature'."

I agree with you here, JimWae. That is known as reification reify, treating an abstraction, 'truth' (which simply refers to a statement that is in accord with the actual state of affairs) as though it were something concrete. Maybe we will be able to find some common ground here after all? 8^) -- DotSix

Is it even required by WikiPolicy that we must say something profound in the lead section? Why don't we just clear it of everything (except the index, of course, which is there automatically), since we can't seem to settle on exactly what it should say, let the article speak for itself, since all the various points of view seem to be given fair treatment in the body of the article, right? How about this for a reasonable compromise? Come on, what have you got to lose? -- DotSix 67.182.157.6 00:17, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

The "broken record" style of debating doesn't work in the long run. It is very hard to have a rational discussion with someone who simply repeats the same thing over and over. Can you accept that "fair" does not mean the same thing as "equal" in the NPOV policy? Obviously Misplaced Pages doesn't allow any anonymous user to stroll along and add their personal opinion to an article under the guise of "equal placement". Rhobite 03:22, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Given the opportunity NOT to have the text Dot67 objects to, he reinserted it himself, twice. It seems he'd rather complain than have his objections answered. He also keeps putting the NPOV tag in on his own material. I cannot distinguish this behaviour from sheer disruption. --JimWae 03:45, 2005 July 21 (UTC)

1. I keep restoring the NPOV flag to the lead section because not everyone agrees that what I wrote in the lead section comports with the NPOV policy as they see it. How could any reasonable person object to having the NPOV flag displayed on an article the neutrality of which is still in dispute? That wouldn't make sense, would it?

2. Your rude remark, "It seems he'd rather complain than have his objections answered" is just another piece of the argument _ad hominem_ case you, Robite and Banno, et al are trying to build against someone who does not share your point of view, right?

3. How about answering my question with something other than argument _ad hominem_? The question is, "Is it even required by WikiPolicy that we must say something profound in the lead section? Why don't we just clear it of everything (except the index, of course, which is there automatically), since we can't seem to settle on exactly what it should say, let the article speak for itself, since all the various points of view seem to be given fair treatment in the body of the article, right? How about this for a reasonable compromise?"

I'm amused that DotSix actually tried to edit the NPOV policy in order to support his belief that all opinions should be given equal placement in articles:

Yes, it is best if all articles have readable lead sections which summarize the concepts described in the article. See Misplaced Pages:Lead section. There is no reason to declare "we failed" simply because you cannot abide the consensus version of the lead section. Rhobite 15:49, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Banana's latest edition of the lead section

quote:

When someone sincerely agrees with an assertion, they are claiming that it is the truth.

Much of this article is about philosophical ideas as to what sorts of things are true and the nature of truth itself. In addition it discusses some particular and peculiar uses of truth.

end quote

From my point of view, Banana's latest edition of the lead section is just as fraught with the same old problem of obscurantist bias it ever was, as I have explained in my objections to it previously. What's so hard to understand about this? Judging by the writings of those involved in the revert battle here, one might think that the policy of writing articles without bias (or else don't try to write anything at all) were rocket science, for Pete's sake!

• ]

From wp:npov

Misplaced Pages policy is that all articles should be written from a neutral point of view: without bias, representing all views fairly. According to Misplaced Pages founder Jimbo Wales, NPOV is "absolute and non-negotiable".

Admin help is definitely needed here! -- DotSix 67.182.157.6 00:26, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Archiving and editing other people's comments - RFC

I suggest that the repeated unnecessary archiving of very recent and relevant material and editing of the comments of other users is an improper practice. Place this alongside repeated reversion and referring to the comments of others as "obscurantist" and "vandalism" - I've refereed this to RfC. Banno 20:34, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for doing this, Banno. I would love to help, but after reading the RfC page, I could not figure out how to make a comment. I would like to add the following points:

1. Falsely accusing others of threatening him/her.
2. Adding a NPOV tag to a lead paragraph that he/she had had written himself/herself.
3. Refusing to follow the style guide regarding placement of references to Wikitionary.
4. Violation of the 3-Revert rule.
5. Refusing to respond constructively to attempts by others to meet him/her halfway.
6. Repeatedly adding a link to a page that simply redirects to the original page.

There is currently no RFC on DotSix's conduct - merely a request for comments on the article. We should welcome more voices to this discussion. Hopefully it will help us come to a consensus on the proper contents of the lead section. Rhobite 03:18, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

I opted not to go to Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment#General user conduct because .6 is a newbie, and also because he has not registered a username. My hope is that general comments by outside users will persuade him to adopt a more appropriate approach. Banno 05:41, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. Rhobite 05:46, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Could you indicate what you would like outsiders to comment on, and provide diffs or similar for comparisons? FuelWagon 00:14, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Re: Aristotle & 19th & 20th Centuries & theories of truth

Aristotle was the first philosopher to offer a theory of truth, but it was not until the 19th Century that the nature of truth became a major issue in philosophy. In the 20th century, some philosophers have come to deny that there could be such a thing as a theory of truth. (See Deflationary Theories below.)

Does article discuss Aristotle's theory of truth? - or 19th Century theories? Is Deflationary theory couched in terms of theory of truth? In what way was my offering about "the meaning of the term truth" inadequate?--JimWae 07:54, 2005 July 21 (UTC)

Jim, I think your version is fine, except that it implies that the article is exclusively philosophical - which is not the case - and as you noted it gives undue prominence to deflationary theories. Banno 10:05, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Nathan's version

Sorry, Nathan, but I don't think it will do. Plato used a very similar version of the correspondence theory of truth to Aristotle, and pre-dates him. It also give undue prominence to Deflation. Banno 07:55, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Banno's version

Trying to think of an alternative approach, my version has two sections. The first, like Nathan's, avoids giving, or even discussing, the meaning of truth. It does this by using the performance of an illocution to explain the meaning - one cannot sincerely make an assertion of something one thinks is false. The second section discusses the content of the article itself. Any good? Banno 09:58, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

I join JimWae in taking exception to the phrase, 'the nature of truth'. It amounts to the fallacy of reification of the abstraction, 'truth', trying to make of it something concrete that can have nature (observable characteristics) http://en.wiktionary.org/nature.

Also, as to your first sentence, "When someone sincerely agrees with an assertion, they are claiming that it is the truth" you are still ignoring the perfectly respectable point of view that it is redunant to say, "'(insert any statement in accord with the actual state of affairs)' is true" it is perfectly sufficient to simply say, "(insert any statement in accord with the actual state of affairs)." See the section on redundancy, and see http://en.wiktionary.org/redundant

You appear to think that Ramsey was capable of sincere assertions he thought were not true - does any one else agree with this? Banno 21:09, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Favoring one point of view over other perfectly respectable points of view does not comport with Misplaced Pages policy, writing without bias.

Wrong, for reasons explained above. Banno 21:09, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Alternative version

What prevents us from agreeing to leave the lead section completely blank as a remedy for the problem of not being able to agree on what to say in the lead section? Is a requirement to say something profound in the lead section spelled out somewhere in WikiPolicy, or would it be acceptable to maybe say nothing at all in the lead section, leave it blank, and just let the reader dive into the various sections of the article itself, which seems to present all points of view fairly? Wouldn't that be a reasonable compromise? -- DotSix 67.182.157.6 13:53, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Leaving the lead section blank violates the Misplaced Pages manual of style and decreases readability. Sorry, this is not a legitimate solution. Rhobite 15:41, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

With all due respect, I don't believe that, sir. That sounds rather dogmatic, and dogmatism is not something Misplaced Pages policy is known for. What, precisely, in Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style do you see leaving a lead section blank violating? Can you quote the relevant part and include a link to that particular section so that I can check your observations, or are you just making this up?

And anyway, even if there were such a policy, what would prevent us from changing it to allow blank lead sections, if needed, as a reasonable work-around to avoid endless revert battles over a question of bias in the lead section? How (on what grounds) could any reasonable person take exception to that? -- DotSix 67.182.157.6 16:00, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

It's not a reasonable workaround. The only person who has declared that a lead section is unattainable in this article is you. See Misplaced Pages:Lead section (and don't try to change that one to suit your needs too). Rhobite 16:08, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

That's an argument from popularity Argumentum ad numerum, which is logical fallacy. Shame on you!

And I haven't DECLARED anything; it is your straw man doing that. I don't have the power to make unilateral declarations here and I think you know that. All I am doing is trying to generate a principled negotiation. Why do you take exception to that, sir?

Let me ask my question once again: What, specifically, in the article you cited, Misplaced Pages:Lead section or anywhere in the Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style prohibits leaving the lead section blank, as a temporary expedient, until principled negotiation results in a lead section comporting with the WikiPolicy of writing without bias?

--DotSix 67.182.157.6 17:11, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Sorry DotSix, we work based on rough consensus here. Plenty of people have tried to understand your complaints, but there comes a time when we break it down to the numbers. Many people have reverted you, and nobody has agreed with your changes. If everyone disagrees with you, you may want to consider the idea that you could be wrong.

I'd like to understand what your beef is with this article, but until I do I'll explain to you how your contributions go against guidelines (such as the manual of style and the self-references policy), and revert your edits. I also think you are obsessed with pointing out logical fallacies, often mistakenly. It's a tough habit to break.

The widely-held view by long-time Misplaced Pages authors is that lead sections should exist and be easy to understand. This is supported by Misplaced Pages:Lead section, which states that "the lead should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it could stand on its own as a concise version of the article." I am sorry if you refuse to accept this, but it is the correct style on Misplaced Pages to write a lead section. Ask anyone on the Misplaced Pages:Village Pump if you like. Ask the regulars at Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates if they'd ever feature an article without a lead section. The answer is no. Rhobite 21:24, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Let me know if you ever want to try following policy, which is to give principled negotiation a try, sir. Argument from popularity Argumentum ad numerum like the above nonsense is logical fallacy. Shame on you! Good day. -- DotSix 67.182.157.6 23:33, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages isn't designed to be logically consistent - we are trying to work on an actual real-life encyclopedia, not achieve some perfect philosophical truth. This ain't debate class - stop pointing out perceived logical fallacies. That is no substitute for actual thought. Rhobite 00:24, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Knowledge

See edits at ] where .6 attempts to remove the Theaetetus theory form the article knowledge! Such extraordinary behaviour may need to go to arbitration. Banno 21:03, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

I had a hunch you might be stalking me, Bananas. Thanks for being so prompt confirming it. 8^) DotSix -- 67.182.157.6 23:33, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

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