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Revision as of 23:04, 22 July 2005

Original discussion

Should the list of archetypes not be lengthened to include things like one-eyed gods and severed hands? I myself would do it, but I am reluctant to get bogged down in writing articles on them. elvenscout742 23:56, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't know that the Loch Ness Monster and Bigfoot fit into mythology, although Grendel does. I am not sure why that should be though.

and if this page is going to identify Christian Myths should the link just go to Christianity, since the author is equating "some people consider it a collection of myths" with "some people believe in Norse gods"? --MichaelTinkler

Doesn't mythology differ from religion by the absence of the preaching of some kind of philosophy?

no, actually, mythology is to religion as Latin is to spoken languages. Yes, some people practice it (in the case of Latin, there really are some speakers left!), but no, it's not a living religion. That's a simple, crude, but useful distinction. I also hasten to say that Greco-Roman mythology, per se, is narrative and has precious little to do with the sacrificial practices of Greco-Roman religion, per se. So, there's no 'preaching' only because no one is 'practicing' it. --MichaelTinkler

Also (my two cents), the above assumes a very narrow reading of religion. Buddhists don't "preach" per se, certainly not in the evangelical sense, nor did the Roman religions. And there are tons of philosophies that do preach, but aren't necessarily a religion... Is NAZISM a religion? Or Amway? There is a vibrant ambiguity here that I think is inherent in what is interesting. To cleanly delineate religion, myth and folklore, each one in its own little box, is to fall short of describing what is going on. I don't know exactly how it SHOULD look, but what we have so far seems to me to fall extremely short of the mark. And BTW, I don't think mythologies need only be defined as the dead husks of ancient religions. We have tons of living mythologies that rival the Roman ones in terms of scope and narrative that transcend folk tradition (UFOLOGY for example, or Pop Personality Cults like ELVISISM). The Elvis Lives movement isn't folklore in the secular sense like Grimm's Household Tales, but of course the "civilized" world typically won't admit it into the pantheon of "recognized" religions either. It exists in a nether realm between Voodoo and Spiritualism. --trimalchio

as a minor aside, I think it depends on the type Buddhism. There is an evangelical/preaching form of Buddhism, as I recall. -- BenBaker

I think that the definition of myth in this article is leading this discussion astray. I would define myth as "a story shared by a group or community that has a deeper meaning or attraction."

I know this is a very simple definition, & does not begin to explain myth in all of its manifestations and characteristics, but myth is a very intricate subject whose explication leads too easily into . . . creating more myth. (The best example of which is Freud's exegesis of the story of Oedipus: he explains Western Society's fascination with this story by explaining how it represents our unconscious sexual desires.) And these stories may originally have been religious ones (e.g., Oedipus, the Last Supper), or ones that have always been secular (e.g., the Horatio Alger story of the hard-working individual who comes out ahead). One finds a story that one identifies with, and retells it to emphasize those details that make it significant.

Objective, dispassionate discussion of this creative activity is difficult, if not impossible. But to borrow an image, one can at least point to the activity as long one is careful not to confuse the finger with this activity. -- llywrch 05:48 Dec 29, 2002 (UTC)

While I do disagree that Christian belief is a Mythology, I do agree that Christian Mythology exists. The story of King Arthur, for example, qualifies. Many stories of verbal history exist, used in explaining the circumstances of scripture. The purported names of the Wise Men are an example of this. I do think that Hinduism as a whole has a more explicit connection to mythology than Christian belief. Hinduism does not have the same focus on the historicity of their scripture as Christianity does, in my experience, and according to my informants. In principle, the christian understanding of scripture holds that scripture is a record of specific events that can be tied to a particular place and time. To my knowledge, Hinduism does not have this as an explicit part of their hermeneutics. I believe the book "The Power of Myth" by Joseph Campbell is relevant. -- BenBaker

How can you say that ancient Graeco-Roman tales are myths, but Jewish or Christian tales are not? They are the same phenomena. The only problem arises because people presume that myths are false, and don't want to call Jewish or Christian tales false (although they seem to have no problem with expressing the same view about the tales of the religions of antiquity.) But the definition of a myth (at least as used in anthropology, etc.) is a story of significance to a culture, that somehow encodes its values. The Bible is full of myths; that doesn't mean it is false, it merely means that its stories are significant to the culture it represents. -- SJK

I think I already agreed that there is such a thing as Christian mythology. I think myth as you are using it is different than mythology. I think the loose way you are using mythology is loose enough that I am justified in agreeing that you hold that the Theory of Evolution is a myth. (it does tell a significant story to a culture... <grin>) I would like to see the reaction if you state that on the page for that article though, as I expect quite an uproar. -- BenBaker

I think the difference maybe is that evolution is a scientific theory. If we understand myth as "religious story", evolution isn't a myth, although some (atheists? humanists? pantheists?) may consider it one significant to their religion.

Yes, you have admitted that there is Christian mythology. But the life of Jesus is as mythological as King Arthur. (Remembering that a story being a myth doesn't imply it is false.) Besides, who are we really to say that even the tales of King Arthur are false? Admittedly few people may believe it to be literally true, but some do (e.g. some occultists or Rosicrucians), and even consider them an important part of their religion. King Arthur is just as mythical as Jesus is, no more, no less. -- SJK

Alright, I admit it, I'm very curious - what "occultists or Rosicrucians" believe in the literal truth of the King Arthur Myth, and what version of the King Arthur myth? Also, do you mean the Californian "Rosicrucians?" --Alex Kennedy

Um, I created a page on Christian Mythology before I saw this debate. Hope no one minds!

On an unrelated topic, I don't think that "wizard" should qualify as a The earliest reference to them listed in their article is in 1982, and if fictional species that recent and relatively little-known count as myt"race." Traditionally, a wizard is a person who has a skill or practices an art -- the aptitude may be inborn, but so is an aptitude for music or chess. Not a race, I say! -- Cayzle

On a related topic, I'm a little iffy about including wemics in here too. Weren't they created pretty much from scratch by TSR and/or Sierra for their games? I would think that to qualify as mythology there should be some significant group of people who at one point believed that it was a real race. TSR was well-known for appropriating mythical creatures from all over the place to incorporate into D&D, so perhaps a reference can be found somewhere to a real mythical origin for wemics? -BD (addendum: maybe not so out of place, actually, since the Mythology article already lists Star Trek as a piece of modern mythology. :)

I wish I knew if D&D wemics and Sierra liontaurs were originated independently, or were inspired by a common unknown source, or what. But I agree with your point -- if Star Trek is mentionable, why not wemics? -- Cayzle

So, should this page now be redirected to an article titled "Stories?" I think it's taking political correctness to an insane level to be eradicating the word "mythology" from all the sub-articles. - BD

Well, as I said before, religious believers should not have a problem with the word "myth" as long as it's not talking about a historical story (because, really, it would sound very weird to talk about "The Myth of the War of 1812," even if we can derive a moral from the events of that war), but I have to disagree with your implied assertion that this is all about political correctness - it's not. I think you have one side (people who, generally speaking, don't believe in Christianity) thinking that it's unfair that Christian stories are labelled "stories" while Greek ones are labeled "myths," while on the other side you have people who do believe in Christianity, to whatever degree, who are very hurt to have what they believe to be true history labeled myths. Since I personally see the Bible as (mostly) allegory, I have a much easier time accepting the word "myths," but please try to remember how hard that word may be to accept for some people. This is not a meaningless argument.

The current Christian Mythology or Christian Stories page, whichever it is named now, appears to be talking about stories which are fairly commonly believed to be fictional, so it's not much of a problem. But, BD, I urge you to think for a minute about something you believe in, such as perhaps your University Degree. How would you feel if someone called your obtaining of a degree "The Myth of BD's University Education?" I'm sure the story of your education could be used to illustrate several important moral points, so it fits the definition of "myth." Still, the connotation is hard to take. --Alex Kennedy

I'd think "Cool, I've achieved the status of myth!" :) But on a more serious note, I do understand that some people would find the combination of the words "Christian mythology" to be offensive. I just think that we shouldn't be focusing on trying to ensure that this encyclopedia offends noone, and should instead be trying to "call things as they are" to as much of a degree it is possible. I suppose the issue of the Christian mythology/stories thing can be debated, but when that debate results in "Greek mythology" being considered an offensive and/or inaccurate description of Greek mythology then I think it's gone a little overboard.

More discussion should probably be conducted on Misplaced Pages Religion and Mythology standards, which I didn't notice until after I first posted to this Talk subpage. :) - BD

Can someone fix the link above? I looked for the page that link points to, but did find anything in the Misplaced Pages namespace that matched it. -- llywrch 05:48 Dec 29, 2002 (UTC)

I'm considering fitting scientific mythology somewhere into the 'Modern mythology' section instead of just having a link to it. Any objections/suggestions? --Chris

Along the lines of mythology is the term "Shared Universe." One example of this is the character Conan the Barbarian. He was created by one person, but later novelized by more than one successive writer. Star Trek can also be considered a shared universe in that many authors have penned Star Trek novels. --E.C.

Mythology

Perhaps the issue as been beaten to death now, but would there be any objections to using J. Campbell's definition of mythology (one of several he provides in his work) as "an organization of images metaphoric of experience, action, and fulfillment of the human spirit in the field of a given culture at a given time." This definition has the advantage that it subsumes religion as a subordinate category of myth, that is as the application of mythology within a narrow field of human experience and action. With respect to three of the world's great religions, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, they insist on the historicity of their myths, in other words, on the actuality of their metaphors in the fields of time and space.

Bruno

Europe sports a Fjort mythology. What's a Fjort? Ain't in my Swedish dictionary. -- IHCOYC 02:22, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Why is Incan mythology found under North America? Do you folks know something that I've missed? Mats 15:14, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Mythology

The Amazons would have to be my most favorite story to hear from the myth. I haven't seen anything about the Amazons on the site and I think it would be interesting to site some informations about them. They were firece and should dominate over the weak. They were warriors and very rare of their time.

Polish and Slavic

Shouldn't Polish mythology and Slavic mythology be merged? At least the entries for gods should, as they are mostly just name variations of the same god (compare: Crnobog and Czarnobóg or Piorun and Perun). Ausir 21:02, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Fiction, however, does not reach the level of actual mythology until people believe that it really happened.

This is a rather erroneous view of the nature of myth. For example, one does not need to believe that Jesus was a living person to read, say, Jefferson's Bible, and come away with the truth that he was trying to teach. One also doesn't have to believe that there was really a place called Hobbiton, that Frodo was a living man (or hobbit), and the events actually occurred. After all, people tend to call stories myths because they are almost certainly fictitious - but they still refer to them because, however fictitious they may be, there is still value to be found in them, and it is that value, independent of whether the events really happened, which is what is important. If I had more time, I'd rewrite this article in its entirity to remove that 'myth must be true' bias that pervades it. HOW MYTHS ARE SO LONG AND INTERESTING?

I'm interested in knowing how myths were and how they were able to stay in each generation but in each generation having it to grow. i mean did the parents add stuff down while the way or if the children added it on to make it more interesting-DS

Constructed Mythologies?

Should this page contain a brief mention of modern constructed mythologies? I am thinking mainly of the mythology of Middle-Earth (that is told in The Silmarillion) created by J.R.R.Tolkien, though there are others. --Ingolemo 11:39, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Canaanite Mythology?

Is there a reason why we don't have anything on myths of the Canaanites??

I'm almost tempted to answer sarcastically about how there's a vast wikicabal against Canaanite mythology but...actually, no, the reason there's not anything is because no one's gotten around to it. If you have information about Canaanite mythology, then please add the information; we would be glad to have your contribution. :) —Lowellian (talk)] 03:50, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC)

Mythology used as symbols

I'm wondering if someone can help me out here. I'm writing a thing about how mythology is used in advertising and I was wondering if anyone has any good insight or anything they'd like to contribute on the subject. For example, how Midas (the car parts place) has its slogan "trust the Midas touch," to emphasize that they know what they are doing and will make your car as good as gold. I could really use some more examples like that, but I'd appreciate anything you'd like to throw in. -M

Neopagan beliefs

The following phrase (referring to Neopagan beliefs formed in imitation of older pagan groups) was deleted recently as allegedly POV: "though the modern versions of these beliefs usually have little to no resemblance to the originals" -- What part of that is supposedly POV? DreamGuy 11:57, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

the whole thing you quoteed is POV.

Gabrielsimon 05:57, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Oh, and why do you say that? DreamGuy 07:19, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

because its heavily POV. Gabrielsimon 07:21, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but you can't just claim something is PoV and remove it without any reasoning given, you have to explain WHY you think it is POV. An actual reason, so that other people can read it and then understand your argument so that they can either agree, disagree, or come to some sort of alternate third choice to take both views into account. You need to work with us here instead of just declare things are the way you say they are. I also tried leaving a note on the talk page of the editor who first removed it, and he could give no justification for the claim that it was PoV either. That's why it has been restored. DreamGuy 07:35, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

the burden of proof is not with me, it is you who must proove that it isnt. Gabrielsimon 07:39, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

No, that's not how things work. You removed it because you claim it violates NPOV, so you need to explain why you think that. How am I supposed to try to defend it against your claim if I don't know what you base the claim on? DreamGuy 07:43, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

actually, according to how people hhave been treating my edits all these months, thats exactly how it works. please proove that it is valid and NPOV please. the basis to my claim is simply that it is opininon, and only that, for prooving itwould be quite ifficult, unless you had a time machine or something. ( please note that i am trying to phrase this respectfull,y and i apologize id thats not how it came out)

Gabrielsimon 07:47, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

I think User:Jwrosenzweig's modification of the phrase in question adequately removes any possible claim of it being PoV, and adds a good extra bit of information. DreamGuy 07:52, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

i agree. Gabrielsimon 07:54, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Definition of "mythology"

DreamGuy, see and here, and also any other good dictionary, such as this. You once insulted me on this same issue, saying I should go edit ja.wikipedia.org if I want to use Japanese definitions of words, clearly ignoring the purpose of my contrast, and yet you now refer to Ancient Greek definitions of words. I don't know why "mythology" means "A body or collection of myths belonging to a people", given the "-ology" suffix, but it simply does, and it certainly is more common, given that at least ninety-five percent of the word's usage in this article go by it, mostly after this point, and the title of that section even uses that "akward plural about studying myths" of yours. I'm more mature than to start an edit war with you over this, so I will simply wait for you to realise you are wrong in this instance.elvenscout742 22:02, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

There are lots of slang usages for a lot of words. Dictionaries tend to cite those. Much like how "myth" is also used rather clumsily to refer to falsehoods, while the Myth article focuses on the nonslang usage. As far as I can tell, somewhere along the way enough people in school classes got books about mythology and decided that the stories were mythologies, which is a ridiculous way of looking at things. Mythology is the study of myths. The myths are the stories. Mythology is the study, not the stories. "Mythologies" to describe the stories does not make sense when the word is being used in the way that the word "myths" already covers more accurately. I can only imagine tht a bunch of people in school classrooms were told they were studying mythology and then applied the word incorrectly. There are lots of words like that that have incorrect usage. A collection of myths are simply myths or mythos, not mythologies. Fields of psychology are not psychologies. Misplaced Pages is supposed to be a source of actual knowledge, not a place to repeat the same errors of people who don't know what they are talking about, no matter if these errors are frequent or not. Please provide a reputable source on mythology that uses the term the way you do instead of resporting to dictionary slang definitions. DreamGuy 00:42, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

And, incidentally, all but one of the instances of mythology was using the word correctly, not "95%" of the article as you claimed. I have now corrected the one incorrect use I found on that list. I must have glossed over the header before. I have no idea how long it wsa like that, but then I missed the change you made to the lead that you put up weeks ago until recently, so who knows. DreamGuy 00:51, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

howaboutthe plural word mythos ( ifthas whatthe word is) would be less clumbsy sounding... Gabrielsimon 00:47, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Less "clumbsy" sounding than what? Than "mythologies"? Yes, but then that's not difficult to do. Than "myths"? No. Myths is a pretty simple and direct word and should be used in place of the longer, clumsier words people don't know how to use. DreamGuy 00:51, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

no no, the word mythos, as a plural of mythology. Gabrielsimon 00:56, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

A mythology isn't a story. It's a collection of stories. And if you choose to call Joseph Campbell, Brian Branston, J. R. R. Tolkien and just about every other mythologist I know about "clumsy schoolchildren". Yes, the word is used properly most of the time in this article, for instance "Celtic mythology ... Greek mythology ... Norse mythology"; these mythologies are collections of myths from different cultures, not the different ways people had of studying myths, or whatever you think that means. And HOW DARE you accuse Oxford of misleading by not marking slang as such!?elvenscout742 11:12, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Also, check here. That article uses the phrase "a... mythology" in its opening sentence. Please do not edit that, however, until you have admitted you are wrong and this destructive conflict is drawn to a close.elvenscout742 12:24, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I have to side with Elvenscout on this: from my experience, "mythology" is often used to denote a collection of myths with a common heritage or subject. Glancing at my bookshelf, here are some examples from scholars (who would be more likely to use the word in its "proper" sense than in its colloquial sense) who use the word "mythology" in the sense of "a collection of myths":

• Martha Beckwith, Hawaiian Mythology
• Martin P. Nilsson, The Mycenaean Origin of Greek Mythology
• Samuel Noah Kramer, Mythologies of the Ancient World
• Proinsias MacCana, Celtic Mythology

When the word "myth" is used in the title of a collection of myths, it is almost always contrasted with another element:

• R. T. Rundle Clark, Myth and Symbol in Ancient Egypt
• H.R. Ellis Davidson, Gods and Myths of the Viking Age

One interesting usage was that by G.S. Kirk for his book-long study of Greek mythology -- Myth. If "mythology" should properly be understood only in the sense Dreamguy is arguing, wouldn't Kirk have instead called his book Mythology? -- llywrch 17:12, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

As a P.S. to what I wrote above, if we accept Drreamguy's argument that based on its etymology "mythology" is the study of myths, then what should we make of the word "anthology"? Are we then mistaken to understand that word as meaning "a collection of poems, stories or essays", & we should only understand it as the study of those short works? And if we exempt "anthology" from this analysis, then why shouldn't we exempt "mythology"? IIRC, in the original Greek, whence these 2 words come from, both words are used to indicate collections, & not the study or analysis of their respective subjects. -- llywrch 17:19, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

You are, of course, right in agreeing with me, fellow, but I have found in numerous articles that it is pointless to reason with DreamGuy, as he is so set in his ways. He will keep reverting any positive changes made to undo what he has perverted. Tragically, as a recent RfC proved, it seems nothing can be done about it. It is also very difficult to reach a compromise, as he won't accept anything less than what he wants. unless Misplaced Pages won't let him have it, and even then he will find some way to sneak around it.elvenscout742 18:43, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I tend to agree with Elvenscout and llywrch. Michael Simpson in the introduction of his translation of Gods and Heroes of the Greeks: The Library of Apollodorus, describes the Library as giving "a straightforward account of Greek mythology from the birth of the gods to the death of Odysseus." I don't think he meant to say that it gives an account of the study of Greek myths, since clearly the Library gives an account of the myths, not their study. Robert Graves in his The Greek Myths says: "A study of Greek mythology should begin with a consideration of ... political and religious systems ...". I don't think he was referring to the study of the study of Greek myths. Walter Burkert's, Structure and History in Greek Mythology and Ritual, seems to use the word in the sense of a collection of related myths. If he were using the term to here to mean the study of myths, the title would be "Structure and History of Greek Mythology ..." — Paul August ☎ 19:41, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Myth vs. Mythology

Yet another lame edit war, I believe compromise is in order. Therefore, mythological beliefs by regions could placate opposing parties. Dbraceyrules 20:54, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

First up, what edit war? It seems excessive to call it a war when it's only been changed a couple of times.

Your way is kind of unnecessarily wordy. It could work, but it's not the cleanest. How about "Mythology by region" if the opposing editor simply cannot accept the perfectly reasonable and succinct word "myths" to describe the concept of myths?

By the way, did you see on elvenscout's talk page where he absolutely refuses to compromise and claims that he is right and everyone else is wrong and he won't accept anything less than having his way? He even told you to undo your edit because he was afraid people would agree with it and choose not not do things his way. Sounds like someone who refuses to try to work with others. It's disappointing. But then if we have consensus his refusal to try to cooperate won't matter.

DreamGuy 22:36, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

I did not say anyone was wrong other than you. I said other people were right in disagreeing with your mistake. I will not compromise this time when you are wrong and everyone, like llywrch above, agrees. "Mythology by region" implies that it is the study of myths in particular regions, which makes no sense. The only good way of expressing it is "Mythologies by region", as they are not "Myths by region" either.elvenscout742 22:50, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

By the way, the consensus is against you, DreamGuy - that is why we do not need to make any unnecessary and awkwardly worded compromises. ou clearly do not understand the word "mythologies", and you are the one who won't accept anything less than having his way. I don't much appreciate your blatant attempts to twist my words to turn people against me. I can't believe you haven't been punished for this kind of behaviour.elvenscout742 22:55, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

1. Sorry Elven, didn't mean to get you upset. 2. DreamGuy, who cares if it is "too wordy" sometimes a few flaws exist in the imperfect state we call life 3. Elven, I think that Mythological Beliefs, etc. is about the same thing as "mythologies by region" 4. DreamGuy, to be frank, myths by regions sounds a little eccentric. The article is dealing with mythology not just mythology' Get it? And I'll never take your side on anything in this life or the next. 5. If you all would change it back to what it was I could careless, I was only trying to solve disputes in Misplaced Pages - and was not trying to piss you off, DreamGuy Dbraceyrules 23:04, 22 July 2005 (UTC)