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serious NPOV issues (oh my)

Lead

There are serious NPOV issues with this article. The lead needs to conform to WP:LEAD and be neutrally written. The word confusion in the lead does not make much sense to me. I don't get it with respect to the word confusion. There needs to be references to verify the text in the lead. For example, a reference to support the inclusion of the four distinct chiropractic groups is necessary. --QuackGuru (talk) 21:55, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

There is still no explanation to the usage of the word confusion in the lead. Please discuss. QuackGuru (talk) 19:53, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

The word "confusion" is somewhat redundant and can easily be removed. The wording that you installed overdid the controversy a bit; I made this change to trim it down. Note that "confusion" is supported by Keating et al. 2005, a cited source; however, I doubt whether it's a big enough deal to be in the lead. Eubulides (talk) 23:23, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't see any citation, either in the old version or the version that you installed, that would indicate that there are four coherent and stable groups. On the contrary, if you look at the end of Talk:Chiropractic/Archive 15 #Elimination of reform chiro, you'll see that PPC indicates that the objective-straights are defunct in practice, and it doesn't even mention a coherent reform group. With this in mind, the lead should just say something noncommittal like "The two main groups of chiropractors are the 'straights' and the 'mixers'.", which is accurate and easy to source. The lead shouldn't bother with relatively-unimportant splinter groups. Eubulides (talk) 23:35, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Relatively unimportant according to whom, Eubulides? —Preceding unsigned comment added by EBDCM (talk • contribs) 01:34, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Relatively unimportant to the reliable sources mentioned at the end of Talk:Chiropractic/Archive 15 #Elimination of reform chiro. For reference, here they are again:

• PPC talks only about traditional straight, mixers, and objective-straight (which it calls purpose-straight (PSC) and mentions also the alias super-straight). After characterizing purpose-straight, it has the following to say about the politics:

The PSC approach to chiropractic came into conflict with several constituencies. The nondiagnostic orientation of this perspective stands in contrast to most statutes governing the practice of chiropractic. Some degree of compromise by the chief institutional proponent of PSC, Sherman College of Straight Chiropractic (SCSC), was apparently reached with the CCE circa 1995, when the SCSC was first recognized by the accreditation agency. The CCE's educational standards require training in diagnosis and referral when appropriate to other health care providers. Accordingly, there would seem to be some disconnect between this institution's ideology and its actual instructional practices. It should be noted that several of SCSC's presidents (e.g., Thomas Gelardi, DC, David Koch, DC) have been articulate contributors to philosophical dialogue within the profession (e.g., reference 64).

The source: Keating JC Jr (2005). "Philosophy in chiropractic". In Haldeman S, Dagenais S, Budgell B et al. (eds.) (ed.). Principles and Practice of Chiropractic (3rd ed. ed.). McGraw-Hill. pp. 77–98. ISBN 0-07-137534-1. {{cite book}}: |edition= has extra text (help); |editor= has generic name (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: editors list (link)

• Ernst talks only about straights and mixers. The source: Ernst E (2008). "Chiropractic: a critical evaluation". J Pain Symptom Manage. doi:10.1016/j.jpainsymman.2007.07.004. PMID 18280103.
• I looked in Google Scholar for any paper mentioning "straight", "mixer", "reform", and "chiropractic". In the summaries I found, there was no mention of "reform chiropractic" or "reform chiropractors" or anything like that.

It seems clear that this reform group is marginal and is currently overemphasized in Chiropractic. The PSC/objective straight group seems to be somewhat overemphasized as well: it seems to be a group that is no longer a major bifurcation from straight. Perhaps discussion of PSC aka objective straights should be moved to the "History" section. Eubulides (talk) 07:47, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

The ACA and whole profession have certainly used an awful lot of ammunition on attacking a "relatively-unimportant splinter groupss." They obviously didn't consider it "unimportant." BTW, they haven't done much to oppose straights, since they are so numerous and dominant in many ways, and are the ones who are defending the philosophical and legal basis for the profession's existence. OTOH, it was the NACM that was instrumental in getting the VA deal passed, since they were the ones seen as representing an acceptable (to mainstream medicine) form of chiropractic. That's a quite ironic fact. -- Fyslee / talk 06:08, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I looked for mentions of the NACM in reliable sources published in refereed journals or high-quality textbooks in the last five years, using Google Scholar.

• PPC mentions them as one of "two much smaller groups: the National Association of Chiropractic Medicine (which advocates chiropractors' subordination to allopathic diagnosticians) and the World Chiropractic Alliance (propounder of exclusively subluxation-based chiropractic practice)." (p. 56). It also says that the work of the ACA and the ICA "is made more difficult by small organizations of extreme viewpoints that claim democratic authority and seek a profile at the national level, groups such as the National Association of Chiropractic Medicine (limiting chiropractic to the management of musculoskeletal pain syndromes) and the World Chiropractic Alliance (limiting chiropractic to location and correction of vertebral subluxations)." (p. 115).
• Menke 2003 (doi:10.1016/S0161-4754(02)54113-0) writes "Obvious ostracism persists in the guise of 'quack busters,' such as the National Association for Chiropractic Medicine (NACM) and the National Council Against Health Fraud in Loma Linda, California."
• Cates et al. 2003 (doi:10.1016/S0161-4754(03)00010-1) mentions them as part of a long list of organizations that the ICA ignored while developing guidelines.

That's all I found. These brief mentions do not indicate a prominent role for the NACM currently; quite the reverse. Perhaps they are important in chiropractic's history; I did not look back farther than five years. But they do not seem important now. Eubulides (talk) 08:16, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I am becoming more and more convinced that NACM only exists in name at this point (if at all). I believe Dematt tried calling the number on the NACM website and it was either a recording or disconnected. -- Levine2112 08:25, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

OK, here's a proposed change to address this problem with the lead. Let's change the first sentence in the lead's last paragraph from this:

Chiropractors have historically fallen into two main groups, "straights" and "mixers," though "objective straights" and "reformers," who are minority groups, are recent off-shoots from the straight and mixer models, respectively.

to this:

Chiropractors have historically fallen into two main groups, "straights" and "mixers"; both have had splinter groups.

Eubulides (talk) 21:35, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Practice styles and schools of thought

The Practice styles and schools of thought secton is cluttered and difficult to read. In its recent form it is hard to follow and does not flow well. For example, mixing the Straight chiropractors and Objective chiropractors in the same paragraph is confusing. Having each group in its own paragraph would be best. Per WP:WEIGHT, we can still incude each group. An off-shoot refers to its origin and not its prominence anyhow. A well writtened introduction to the Practice styles and schools of thought secton is lacking. It is short but can easily be expanded. I think it would be better to move the table to the right. --QuackGuru (talk) 21:55, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

It actually reads quite well. Objective are offshoots of straights and share many similarities as straight and, accordingly, should be talked about in the straight section. Same logic goes for the reform and mixer groups. EBDCM (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 01:55, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

For readability purposes it should be in its own paragraph. The objective straights addition can be limited but also in its own paragraph. QuackGuru (talk) 03:36, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Common themes in chiropractic care are conservative, non-invasive, non-medication approaches via manual therapy. Nonetheless, there are significant differences amongst the practice styles, claims and beliefs between various practitioners. Those differences are reflected in the varied viewpoints of multiple national practice associations. There are four practice styles and schools of thought among chiropractors. This was in the article and was a nice introduction to the section and well sourced. Please explain the deletion. Thanks. QuackGuru (talk) 03:40, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I apologize for deleting the citations; they were inadvertently taken out while I reverted your omnibus bill of an edit which spanned almost every section of the article. In the future, if you keep your edits to one section at a time, they're less likely to be mistakenly taken out. Feel free to add those citations again. Thanks. EBDCM (talk) 07:56, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

At times manual therapy is synonymous with"manual medicine". Philosophically, reform chiropractors focus on the structural and functional relationships of the neuromusculoskeletal system in both health and disease. Reform chiropractors support vaccination as a cost-effective and proven preventative health measure.

There have been some calls to differentiate reform or 'contemporary' chiropractors from both straight and mixer chiropractors by establishing a Doctor of Chiropractic Medicine (D.C.M.) degree. It is argued this would distinguish them from previous diplomas, and would allow current DCs to upgrade their education to the DCM degree whivh would permit DCMs to utilize prescription drugs suitable to the limitations of their practices and have a unified scope of practice across all jurisdictions.

These sentences don't add much to the article. The section needs to be cleaned up. The vaccination bit should remain in the vaccination section and not this section. QuackGuru (talk) 20:43, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

It's notable and verifiable re: the DCM and it was written by a skeptic of chiropractic as well. It's important to clearly differentiate the different styles of thoughts and approaches hence the structure and function which is also verifiable from a reliable source. Thanks for your input, QG! EBDCM (talk) 23:58, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

According to what references it's notable and verifiable. Please explain. QuackGuru (talk) 01:15, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I added back in the citations. QuackGuru (talk) 01:55, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

You apoligized for deleting the citations but you deleted the citations again. Please discuss the deletions. QuackGuru (talk) 05:33, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

• I agree that this section is muddled, but that's not a serious NPOV problem, is it? I thought this talk-page section was about NPOV problems.
• I disagree that each group needs its own paragraph. Mixers and straights yes, but the other groups are splinters and don't need to be discussed at length; the splinters can be folded into the respective main paragraphs.

Eubulides (talk) 00:39, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I had done this originally but QG seems determined to go against the majority of editors here. Your calls for deletion of cited sources is your own fault; editors have asked you previously to add content one section at a time instead of a mass edit in case stuff gets mistakenly deleted. Feel free (like I mentioned 4 times now) to ADD THE REFERENCES ONLY that way your edit won't get reverted THEN add your input. Thanks for cooperating quack guru we really appreciate your new and improved tone since your block. EBDCM (talk) 01:33, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I f it is of any worth, Citizendium articles are still not considered a reliable source according for Misplaced Pages's purposes. -- Levine2112 05:17, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

History

The history section can include the survey. It does not fit in the lead but can be included somewhere else in this article such as the history section. The text of the survey is as follows: A 2003 paper showed that 90% of North American chiropractors surveyed believed vertebral subluxation played a significant role in all or most diseases. --QuackGuru (talk) 21:55, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

The survey was selected by Mccready. If editors prefer, we can select another study. That's fine with me. I thought this information would improve this article. We can try using other references such as the Biggs study. We can add the Biggs study instead "that shows that 36% of DCs think vert sub causes disease." I am open to suggestions. --QuackGuru (talk) 04:31, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Safety

The safetey section is a huge POV probem. There is too much WP:WEIGHT being given to describing The Bone and Joint Decade 2000-2010 Task Force on Neck Pain and Its Associated Disorders. It seems pointy to have a lengthy description of The Bone and Joint Decade 2000-2010 Task Force on Neck Pain and Its Associated Disorders. It can be shortened. The reference linking to the The Bone and Joint Decade 2000-2010 Task Force on Neck Pain and Its Associated Disorders website and the reference linking to chiropractic advocacy group's news release in the article are not WP:RS. This can easily be fixed by replacing it with the Spine journal reference. The following text in the safety section seems out of place and is not referenced: Patients should be screened and undergo a complete clinical exam including history, physical and at times additional specialized imaging and laboratory diagnostics in order to rule out any of these contraindications before undergoing a treatment regime that includes spinal manipulation. Spinal manipulation is a controlled health act and should not be performed except by licensed health professionals whose scope allows it. There are many references to include in this section that will expand and explain about the safety issues. Deleting well sourced sentences supported by references is a clear NPOV issue. In this regard, my first option would be the Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Neutrality. We need more uninvolved Wikipedians. Agreed? --QuackGuru (talk) 21:55, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree that we should use spine as the main reference. Good suggestion, GQ. Lets get those references (you do agree that there is a clinical examination and diagnosis prior to treatment and SMT, right? You do agree that the practice of SMT is limited by scope of practice and legislated acts, right? What do oyu mean by uninvolved? Uninformed? The community here is very knowlegeable and has a scientific bent to it which, IMO is a huge bonus because the quality of citations, and accordingly, the article, goes up. EBDCM (talk) 08:39, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I did not say to use the Spine ref as the main ref. It should be the only ref because it is RS and because The Bone and Joint Decade 2000-2010 Task Force on Neck Pain and Its Associated Disorders and the chiropractic advocacy group is not RS. It there a RS ref for "the practice of SMT is limited by scope of practice and legislated acts" you described above? What do I mean by uninvolved? I want more uninvolved editors to help NPOV this article. Please explain your reasons for deleting the new Spine ref, the WHO reference, and the Edzard Ernst ref anyhow. --QuackGuru (talk) 03:33, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

In February 2008, the World Health Organization sponsored Bone and Joint Decade 2000-2010 Task Force on Neck Pain and its Associated Disorders, the largest and most comprehensive study on neck pain to date. The task force was comprised of a group of international clinician-scientists and methodologists to undertake a best-evidence synthesis on neck pain and its associated disorder and make recommendations of clinical practice guidelines for the management of neck pain and its associated disorders. This included a consensus of the top experts in the world whose findings will be collated using best-evidence synthesis, which addresses risk and prevention, diagnosis, prognosis and treatment risks and benefits. Please explain your reason to add such a HUGE amount of text to describe The Joint Decade 2000-2010 Task Force on Neck Pain and its Associated Disorders. It smacks WP:POINT. QuackGuru (talk) 03:58, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

The NPOV problems with this section has continued. I will restore the facts and add more information to strengthen WP:NPOV. QuackGuru (talk) 20:59, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

The neck pain study was 6 years in length, comprised over 1 million patient years and was a landmark study which included a various array of health professionals and researchers (i.e. there was a consensus). This helps readers to know that the findings and conclusions are accepted by a wide majority of professional researchers. It also explains to readers why it's an important study whose conclusions are worth including. Thanks. EBDCM (talk) 00:00, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

It is still way too much text. The length of the study does not mean we should add such a huge amount of text. QuackGuru (talk) 01:11, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Describing The Joint Decade 2000-2010 Task Force on Neck Pain and its Associated Disorders does not need to be so long. QuackGuru (talk) 01:31, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

The WHO report in the 'Safety' section was referenced but the reference was deleted. Please explain this. QuackGuru (talk) 01:17, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand this last comment. The first URL does not point at a reference, and the second URL does not point at the deletion of a reference. Eubulides (talk) 01:30, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

In a 2005 report, the World Health Organization states that when "employed skilfully and appropriately, chiropractic care is safe and effective for the prevention and management of a number of health problems." The WHO report goes on to say, "there are however, known risks and contraindications to manual and therapeutic protocols used in chiropractic practice," and, "Contraindications to spinal manipulative therapy range from a nonindication for such an intervention, where manipulation or mobilization may do no good, but should cause no harm, to an absolute contraindication... where manipulation or mobilization could be life‐threatening." This was referenced but the reference got deleted. QuackGuru (talk) 02:14, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I still can't make heads or tails of that comment. All its URLs point to the same diff listing, which contain zero diffs, so I don't see what changed. I agree with you that the section in question is overly POV. But I still don't understand this specific comment. Eubulides (talk) 08:38, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

A lot of the above text (including the reference) was removed and now it reads: According to the World Health Organization "employed skilfully and appropriately, chiropractic care is safe and effective for the prevention and management of a number of health problems." I will add the text + reference back. QuackGuru (talk) 08:45, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Originally the 2005 WHO report was NPOV and referenced. Currently it is POV and unreferenced. QuackGuru (talk) 08:56, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I have included more text and references to verify the facts but it was deleted without any good explanation. QuackGuru (talk) 19:56, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree the safety section is POV and has too much about the Bone and Joint study. I also object to the 'cherry picking' of the WHO statement, deleting the contraindication part.

"Spinal manipulation, the most common modality in chiropractic care, has been increasingly studied in recent years as critics and proponents debate the merits of its efficacy and safety.

Spinal manipulation has generally regarded is a safe and effective procedure for the treatment of various mechanical low back pain syndromes." These references don't support the second sentence. Refs 74-77 are pretty negative; "not clinically meaningful"74, "not clinically worthwhile in decreasing pain and mobility" 75, "not effective for any condition" 76, "not established as effective" and spinal manipulation "burdened with severe adverse reactions" 77 The last two refs are vaguely positive. The second sentence should say something like "many studies have found spinal manipulation to be only mildly effective or ineffective" Any mention of safety was toward the negative side, but the impression the reader is left with is "safe and effective".CynRNCynRN (talk) 21:17, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Vaccination

All the tweaking to this section had diluted the entire section. I will restore the missing well sourced sentences. QuackGuru (talk) 20:47, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

This first sentence is a little wierd."Mandatory vaccination is controversial within the chiropractic community controversial with different schools of thought" Controversial with different schools of thought doesn't make sense. I think it means straights often oppose it and mixers may not, but it could use clearing up. Just a little history of where the opposition came from would be useful; initial opposition to the germ theory, etc.CynRNCynRN (talk) 21:23, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I liked this lead in from Eubulides:"although vaccination is one of the most cost-effective form of prevention against infectious disease, it remains controversial in chiropractic. Most chiropractic writings on vaccination focus on its negative aspects." This is accurate and referenced.CynRNCynRN (talk) 21:30, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

As long as it differentiates between the varying opinions within the chiropractic profession it's all good by me though we really don't need to go into germ theory, IMO. EBDCM (talk) 00:02, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Most chiropractic writings on vaccination focus on its negative aspects, despite its being one of the most cost-effective forms of disease prevention. I think this would work too. QuackGuru (talk) 01:21, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I brought back the wording CynRN liked at about the same time that you suggested the other wording. Either wording is fine with me. Eubulides (talk) 01:29, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Both ways work for me. QuackGuru (talk) 02:12, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Education, licensing, and regulation

I will fix the red links and format a ref. QuackGuru (talk) 20:52, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I fixed the red links and formatted a reference but it was reverted. QuackGuru (talk) 05:36, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I fixed the red links again and formatted a reference among other things. It was reverted. The edit was partial vandalism to this section. QuackGuru (talk) 19:50, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Treatment techniques vs. Manipulative treatment techniques

I think the appropriate title for the section should be Chiropractic treatment techniques because there is more than just manipulative techniques. QuackGuru (talk) 21:13, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

The name "Chiropractic treatment techniques" runs afoul of WP:HEAD, which says "Avoid restating or directly referring to the topic." To fix this particular problem I removed the word "Chiropractic" from the section header. Currently the body of the section talks only about manipulative techniques: shouldn't that be fixed too? Eubulides (talk) 02:30, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. "Treatment techniques" works in accordance with WP:HEAD. QuackGuru (talk) 02:36, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Are all techniques manipulative or not all techniques are manipulative. QuackGuru (talk) 05:23, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Chiropractic&diff=next&oldid=194269776 I agree with this edit. QuackGuru (talk) 22:51, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Holistic and naturopathic approach

This header seems unecessary. I don't see any point to keeping it. QuackGuru (talk) 22:23, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree. The current redrafts of the philosophy section seem to omit it, so it looks like it will go at some point. Eubulides (talk) 02:31, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Disagree. Why don't you want to readers to know this? EBDCM (talk) 04:52, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Section headers are supposed to be short and to the point. It's not a question of what I want readers to know; the material in question will be in the body, and doesn't need to be in a section header. Besides, it's strange for the entire contents of a section to consist of a single subsection, with no other text; I don't recall ever seeing that in any featured article in Misplaced Pages. Eubulides (talk) 05:21, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

We will add conservative to the mix. Thanks.EBDCM (talk) 01:29, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Comments on the 2008-02-22 12:06:18 edit

Here are some comments on the 2008-02-22 12:06:18 edit that QuackGuru just made.

• There are a lot of changes in that one edit, and many of them are no doubt controversial. Surely it'd be better to discuss the changes one by one; that's more likely to achieve a working consensus.

• Wheeler 2006 is not published in a refereed journal. I'd prefer a higher-quality citation.

• I disagree that chiropractors fall into four distinct groups. See the comment "I checked two reliable sources on this subject." in #Elimination of reform chiro above. Reliable sources agree about the two main groups (straights and mixers); the existence of the other two as formal groups is in doubt, and the article should not give greater emphasis to the other groups than reliable sources do. It is OK to mention the two less-well-supported groups, but not in so much detail that they appear to be just as important as the two main groups.

• The cited source does not support the claim that "All groups, except reform, treat patients using a subluxation-based system." It doesn't say that mixers use a subluxation-based system.

• The claim "A 2003 paper showed that 90% of North American chiropractors surveyed believed vertebral subluxation played a significant role in all or most diseases." is supported by McDonald 2003. I don't have easy access to that source, but this summary doesn't mention that figure. The summary mentions a bunch of other numbers, which may well be more notable than the 90% figure; why was the 90% figure selected here? Eubulides (talk) 00:18, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

• I haven't had the time to wade through all the studies on the efficacy and safety of spinal manipulation so I can't comment on the material in the many edits made in that section. However, I suggest using "cite journal" with pmid= instead of "cite news" with URLs in citations to Pubmed-indexed articles. I made that change just for Ernst 2008, to give you a feeling for how it works. Eubulides (talk) 00:18, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Eubulides (talk) 00:18, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

It appears that quack guru has cherry picked the evidence and neglected to include meta-analyses which have already been performed on this subject and shown SMT for LBP to be both safe and effective. It also demonstrates common reductionistic thinking that still pervades conv med. http://theintegratorblog.com/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=381&Itemid=1 EBDCM (talk) 02:01, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I will make the necessary adjustments based on all the comments above. QuackGuru (talk) 21:20, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I will adhere to NPOV and edit the article. QuackGuru (talk) 10:32, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I have included a meta-analyses study in the Safety section but it was deleted. QuackGuru (talk) 20:01, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

partial vandalism and NPOV violation

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Chiropractic&diff=next&oldid=194142433 This edit was in part vandalism. For example, references were removed that cited the text.

Evidence at the trial showed that the defendants took active steps, often covert, to undermine chiropractic educational institutions, conceal evidence of the usefulness of chiropractic care, undercut insurance programs for patients of chiropractors, subvert government inquiries into the efficacy of chiropractic, engage in a massive disinformation campaign to discredit and destabilize the chiropractic profession and engage in numerous other activities to maintain a medical physician monopoly over health care in this country. I provided a reference that verified the above text.

A 2005 World Health Organization report states that when "employed skilfully and appropriately, chiropractic care is safe and effective for the prevention and management of a number of health problems." The report continued, "there are however, known risks and contraindications to manual and therapeutic protocols used in chiropractic practice," and, "Contraindications to spinal manipulative therapy range from a nonindication for such an intervention, where manipulation or mobilization may do no good, but should cause no harm, to an absolute contraindication... where manipulation or mobilization could be life‐threatening." I provided a reference that verified the above text.

The current text reads: According to the World Health Organization "employed skilfully and appropriately, chiropractic care is safe and effective for the prevention and management of a number of health problems." This is not the entire story of the 2005 report by WHO. The reference was deleted along with the balance facts. Therefore, it is an NPOV violation.

In February 2008, the World Health Organization sponsored Bone and Joint Decade 2000-2010 Task Force on Neck Pain and its Associated Disorders, the largest and most comprehensive study on neck pain to date. The task force was comprised of a group of international clinician-scientists and methodologists to undertake a best-evidence synthesis on neck pain and its associated disorder and make recommendations of clinical practice guidelines for the management of neck pain and its associated disorders. This included a consensus of the top experts in the world whose findings will be collated using best-evidence synthesis, which addresses risk and prevention, diagnosis, prognosis and treatment risks and benefits.

Here is another example of an NPOV violation. The above text is a description of The Bone and Joint Decade 2000-2010 Task Force on Neck Pain and its Associated Disorders. It also has WEIGHT problems.

In February 2008, the Bone and Joint Decade 2000-2010 Task Force on Neck Pain and its Associated Disorders, comprising a group of experts to evaluate neck pain and its associated disorder, released a manuscript of their findings with recommendations and guidelines, including associated risks and benefits. Here is the shortened text.

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Chiropractic&diff=prev&oldid=194142433#Safety This edit shortened the text and is NPOV as ever.

Also a Spinal journal reference was added to replace the unreliable reference but it got deleted. The Spinal journal is a reliable reference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Chiropractic&diff=prev&oldid=194142433#Education.2C_licensing.2C_and_regulation The same edit fixed the red links and formatted a reference in the Education, licensing, and regulation section. But the formatted reference and the proper blue links were reverted. It was a clear policy violation (partial vandalism) to remove a formatted reference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Chiropractic&diff=prev&oldid=194142433#_note-Edzard_Ernst formatted reference number 79

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Chiropractic&diff=next&oldid=194142433#_note-Edzard_Ernst deleted reference number 70 in red

A reference was formatted but the reference was deleted.

Spinal manipulation is a regulated medical intervention and can only be performed by chiropractors and a limited number of physical medicine professionals.

Most patients have no adverse effects from cervical manipulation, though the risk of stroke is not zero.

Here are a couple of more examples. The above text was referenced but the references were deleted.

There are problems with the Practice style and schools of thought section.

The four different groups were in its own paragraph along with a nice introduction but the introduction got shortened and the citation got removed. The current version reads: Common themes in chiropractic care are conservative, non-invasive, non-medication approaches via manual therapy. Nonetheless, there are significant differences amongst the practice styles, claims and beliefs between various practitioners. Notice the missing citations.

Common themes in chiropractic care are conservative, non-invasive, non-medication approaches via manual therapy. Nonetheless, there are significant differences amongst the practice styles, claims and beliefs between various practitioners. Those differences are reflected in the varied viewpoints of multiple national practice associations. There are four practice styles and schools of thought among chiropractors. Now here is a quality introduction to that section along with references. No good explanation has been given to remove a good introduction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Chiropractic&oldid=194142433#Practice_styles_and_schools_of_thought Before and NPOV.

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Chiropractic&diff=next&oldid=194142433#Practice_styles_and_schools_of_thought After and POV.

It was a WP:POINT violation to undo a quality edit. --QuackGuru (talk) 21:12, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Eubulides agrees with me that the 'Safety' section in question is overly POV. Any suggestions on NPOVing this article would be helpful. QuackGuru (talk) 21:49, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Feel free to insert references, but do it one section at a time; otherwise your controversial edits will get reverted including accidental omissions of your sources. With all due respect; Eubulides POV is not the end-all-be all. What specifically do you have a problem with? EBDCM (talk) 01:23, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

It can't be an accidental omission of the sources when editors are fully aware of the additional sources were added to the article that verified the text. It was an intential ommission.

I will insert the references along with the NPOV sentences that went along with the facts. I will follow the references. The sentences must be written in accordance with NPOV policy. WP:NPOV states: Neutral point of view is a fundamental Misplaced Pages principle. NPOV is absolute and non-negotiable. EBDCM asked: What specifically do you have a problem with? I already explained that above. QuackGuru (talk) 21:03, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Historical material belongs in "History"

The following material in Chiropractic #Treatment techniques is mostly about history, not about techniques. Let's move this material to Chiropractic #History.

The medicinal use of spinal manipulation can be traced back over 3000 years to ancient Chinese writings. Hippocrates, the "father of medicine" used manipulative techniques, as did the ancient Egyptians and many other cultures. A modern reemphasis on manipulative therapy occurred in the late 1800s in North America with the emergence of the osteopathic and chiropractic professions. While some manipulative procedures now associated with chiropractic care can be traced back to ancient times, the modern profession of chiropractic was founded by Daniel David Palmer in 1895 in Davenport, Iowa. Spinal manipulative therapy gained recognition by mainstream medicine during the 1980s.

Eubulides (talk) 00:47, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Vehemently disagree. It seems if editor Eubulides had his/her way the whole article would be flipped upside down according to his/her standard. This section is perfectly referenced and gives readers insight and appropriate context of manipulative therapies the #1 modality used in chiropractic clinical practice. Of course, I cannot wait to add some contrasting material with medicine that Eubulides is so desperately trying to keep out of the page despite appropriate citations and perfectly allowable contrast. Thanks. EBDCM (talk) 01:28, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Be careful with the contrasting. This article is about chiropractic, not medicine. If you stay on topic, you can avoid problems. -- Fyslee / talk 06:21, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I am not asking that the material be removed, nor am I saying that the material is poorly sourced. I am merely saying that material about 3000-year-old manipulation is obviously historical, and that it therefore ought to be in Chiropractic #History. I disagree that the historical material provides any real insight into the nature or types of spinal manipulative techniques. All it says is that the techniques go way back, so it's useless for the purpose of a section that describes the main techniques. I do not know what EBDCM means by "contrasting material with medicine that Eubulides is so desperately trying to keep out of the page", and I do not understand why that point (whatever it is) is relevant here. Eubulides (talk) 07:37, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

The material about SMT belongs in the SMT (procedures) section. The history section is more about the political and foundings on the profession and it's subsequent struggles for legitimacy, the AMA blurb, etc. We will leave it here. Thanks. EBDCM (talk) 15:35, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Chiropractic #History should be about the history of chiropractic. If it's really just about politics, then it should be labeled Politics and we should start a new History section. The first sentence in Chiropractic #History is about spinal adjustment; if it really was the case that every sentence in this article that mentions SMT should be in the Treatment section, then we'd have to move that sentence and many other chunks of the article into Treatment, which would be silly. What matters is what is the best section for a particular point, not what sections that point could conceivably be put in. On balance, the material under dispute is far more about history than it is about SMT (it says nothing about what SMT is). I don't see why it belongs anywhere but the history section. Eubulides (talk) 16:44, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Another point: WP:SUMMARY says that when a section summarizes a subarticle, as Chiropractic#Treatment procedures summarizes Chiropractic treatment techniques, the section's material should be in sync with the subarticle. And yet in this case we have a section whose text spends most of its time on a topic (history) that is not in the subarticle. This is another indication that the historical material is ill-placed. Eubulides (talk) 16:55, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Integrative Medicine

Proposed amendment. Integrative Model of Care or Integrative medicine or another fitting title. With the rise of popularity of complementary and alternative therapies and the reformation of health care systems internationally integrative models of health care delivery are becoming increasingly prevalent. National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine defines integrative medicine as combination of mainstream medical therapies and CAM therapies for which there is some high-quality scientific evidence of safety and effectiveness." Consequently, some chiropractors, in particular refom chiropractors, are beginning to become integrated in formal public health settings such as hospitals, interdisciplinary health teams and within governmental institutions to provide their expertise in the management of neuromusculoskeletal disorders.

This was swept away in the archives but we should discuss it here first, as always before incorporating it into the main article. Eubulides, do you have any problems with the language and what section do you think this belongs in? EBDCM (talk) 02:05, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

As I mentioned at the end of Talk:Chiropractic/Archive 15 #Mainstream integration, I can't easily review this proposal because it has has zero citations; it has merely uninformative numbers like "". Without that information, I cannot verify that the claims are well-sourced. Can you please fix this so that I can do a proper review? Thanks. Eubulides (talk) 07:26, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Go--- I mean Eubulides, but the sources are well sourced. Personally I think that it's condecending of you to infer that only your eyes and brain can make a call on what is well sourced. I have 8 years of university education, am very familar with EBM and research protocols I think I can tell the difference between a poor source and a good one. Anyways, I was asking you about the language first. EBDCM (talk) 15:38, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Please provide the sources. I cannot tell whether I have problems the language without seeing the sources. Eubulides (talk) 16:48, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

EBDCM, what Eubulides is saying is that he doesn't know what you mean by or as there is no hyperlinked text. Are you referring to sources already in the article? Sources in the notes section of the talk page? On the other hand, Eubulides, you should not need the sources to decide if you have a problem with the way the text is worded. 121.44.227.79 (talk) 00:24, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I see some minor problems with the phrasing, but I'd rather not waste everybody's time with those while the major problem of sourcing remains unaddressed. Eubulides (talk) 05:31, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Why don't you mention those now, because otherwise you are wasting everybody's time. 121.44.227.79 (talk) 05:50, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Let's go Eubulides, as anonymous suggests. The sources have already been provided in the archives in both the main article and talk page. EBDCM (talk) 15:48, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I disagree that strong sources have been provided. However, since you asked, here are some problems with the existing text:

• Integration implies being integrated with some other professionals. Who are these other professionals, and how do they interact with chiropractors in an integrated models? Without this information the paragraph isn't saying much, other than "Integration good" (which raises POV issues).
• "With the rise of popularity of complementary and alternative therapies". Lawrence & Meeker also point out that the chiropractic is rising in popularity only modestly.
• "The reformation of health care systems internationally" This doesn't say much. Health care systems are always changing, and people are always reforming them. This phrase can go.
• "integrative models of health care delivery are becoming increasingly prevalent". What is the source for the claim that integrative models are more prevalent? How much more prevalent are they?
• "National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine defines" There's no need to mention the NCCAM in the main text; a citation suffices.
• "in particular reform chiropractors" This phrase is not needed (and I suspect is not supported by the sources).

Eubulides (talk) 17:57, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

References

• Misplaced Pages controversial topics
• A-Class Skepticism articles
• High-importance Skepticism articles
• WikiProject Skepticism articles
• A-Class Alternative medicine articles