Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 14:08, 2 March 2008

I am also user GRBerry on Commons, Wikispecies, Meta, and (although I speak no German) de.Misplaced Pages. Messages intended for me on any of those projects may be left here, in which case I ask the poster to indicate which project they are talking about. GRBerry diffmeta diff

Email advice: When able to be active on Misplaced Pages, I am more likely to read this talk page than I am to read email, as the email goes to my work email. So please reserve email for items requiring 1) confidentiality, 2) the format (forwarding other emails), or 3) some other really good reason for using email. Also, to help it get through my spam filters and to my attention, have the email subject line begin with "Misplaced Pages". If at all possible, I will respond on Misplaced Pages, because I believe that transparency is important, and each user I email lessens my privacy. GRBerry

New sections belong at the bottom, not here.

My Rfa

My effort to regain adminship was unsuccessful, and I'll do what I can to ensure your opinion of my suitability for adminship improves. Thank you for taking some time out of your day to voice your opinion.--MONGO 04:53, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Category:Queer Wikipedians

I believe you are mistaken at the DRV in saying there is consensus - I cannot see one, could you explain where you saw it please? I also question your suggestion to try UCFD - it was tried there, and then moved to DRV as it was suggested that that would be a better place for it. Thank you. DuncanHill (talk) 16:56, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

The consensus within is a DRV consensus - DRV can only either keep something deleted or undeleted; it doesn't usually have the luxury of compromising. (That is even more true for categories; as even a category rename requires creating a new category and deleting the old one while editing all pages in the old category to use the new category.) In addition, consensus is always evaluated in terms of prior discussions on a specific subject and broader policy/guideline status. Both the prior DRVs are the germane specific subject discussions, with the original UCFD also relevant. All of these have come to the same conclusion, after evaluating much the same arguments - I didn't see a single new and valid argument in this discussion. Similarly, there is a broad Wiki-consensus against demographic categories such as these, as demonstrated by the fate of Category:Heterosexual Wikipedians, Category:Wikipedians by sexuality, Category:Wikipedians by lifestyle, the zodiac sign categories, and the age specific categories. User interest categories, like Category:Wikipedians interested in LGBT issues are generally acceptable but user lifestyle categories are not. Interest categories have more collaborative potential than identification categories, which is the best reason for preferring them. Historically, some of the user identification categories were alleged to have been wrongly used for votestacking in XfD discussions, and the fact that interest categories are open to those interested in something due to opposition to it is another reason that interest categories are preferred.

The reason I said "UCFD itself, on the many categories that need review," (emphasis added) was that I did not in any way mean to recreate this category and take it to UCFD by itself. I meant that if consensus on the basic policy and practice against demographic/lifestyle categories has changed, that will be demonstrated across the many user categories that are regularly reviewed on UCFD day in and day out. When demographic and/or lifestyle categories start routinely surviving UCFD discussions, that will be evidence that consensus has changed. Location demographic categories are somewhat an exception to the usual rule, because being in a location allows you to do local history research (most libraries have more coverage of the local region than equivalent regions elsewhere, and local historical societies are easier to get to) or go take photographs needed for articles based in that location. But even these location categories have struggled with consensus for several years; see the UCFD discussion of Category:Wikipedians by location on 3-21 January 2008 for a recent example and links to older discussions. GRBerry 20:54, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

There are masses of "demographic" or "user lifestyle" categories (to use your phraseology) and it would seem to me that the broad consensus is to keep them - I have seen no compelling argument for singling out LGBT cats. If consensus is really determined by including all previous debates then it is effectively impossible for consensus ever to change, as the "votes of the graveyard" will still be counted, even when those who expressed those opinions are no longer interestred in a subject or even contributing at all. DuncanHill (talk) 21:03, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

The claim that the LGBT cats were singled out is false, and has been known to be false since the original DRV for this category. Since Misplaced Pages's measurement of consensus is based on good arguments, and false arguments are not good, such arguments are completely disregarded. Look again at the red links in the first paragraph of my reply. All of those were deleted either by UCFD or due to all sub-categories being deleted by UCFD.

There are at least four routes to demonstrate a change in consensus. One, present facts (e.g. sources) that have come to light (or been published) since the prior discussion - sources aren't relevant to a UCFD, in theory there could be some facts missed in prior discussions, but I'm not betting on it. Two, come up with new and compelling arguments - didn't happen here, and I don't now expect new good arguments after three DRVs. Three, demonstrate that wider policy has changed - this is why I recommended policy page discussion and the daily grind of UCFDs. Four, get the prior commentators to change their minds - didn't happen this time, and not particularly likely without new good arguments. The fourth point is why Misplaced Pages:Consensus says "A good sign that you have not demonstrated a change in consensus, so much as a change in the people showing up, is if few or none of the people involved in the previous discussion show up for the new one." See more generally the WP:PARENT subsection of the Consensus policy. GRBerry 21:27, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

You haven't answered my point that the broad consensus is to keep "demographic" or "lifestyle" categories. I also don't think you really addressed the point in the DRV that there was never a consensus for deletion in the first place, rather the then closing admin substituted their own argument and claimed that that was the consensus. The arguments that having a cat for queer wikipedians to self-identify does not enhance collaboration is specious at best - the ability to identify editors with a likely similar perspective is essential for collaboration, as well as for critical reading of contributions. The "Wikipedians interested in LGBT issues" category would naturally include wikipedians of an actively homophobic disposition (they are, by definition, "interested in LGBT issues"). To tell the truth, I have no expectation that you will change your mind, or that a satisfactory resolution to the problem will ever be found. Misplaced Pages is so bureaucratic - multiple overlapping and poorly defined fora, multiple overlapping and poorly defined policies and no clear process for doing anything, and (as you now tell me) graveyard voting - but I do thank you for taking the time to explain your reasoning further, it is appreciated. DuncanHill (talk) 21:42, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

GRBerry, I would appreciate it if you would please explain to me the error in the policy arguments that I advanced in the deletion review. I would also appreciate a response to the comments made by DGG. Thanks, Jay*Jay (talk) 14:55, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

You make several comments in the discussion. In top to bottom order.

1. You comment that the discussion should be closed in favor of a policy level discussion. I said in the close that a policy discussion page was the best forum to go do. The close agrees with you, so I don't see an error in this.
2. You then made an argument for renaming a different category, which you didn't bother to link. If the category exists this argument is probably correct and should be applied to it in UCFD. This is an argument for a different discussion that has no affect on this discussion.
3. You refute the notion that this category was deleted due to bias. The close agrees with you, so I don't see an error in this.
4. (Numbered point 1) You claim the minority opinion has been steamrollered and no compromise accepted. The history is otherwise; Category:Wikipedians interested in LGBT issues was suggested in DRV#2 and has since been created. It has more than 200 pages in it. A compromise has been put in place and appears to be widely accepted.
5. (Numbered point 2) You link to a discussion in which the closer of DRV#2 participated, and then claim he didn't participate. The evidence you link to refutes your own argument.
6. (Numbered point 2) You also say that DRV is an appropriate forum for reviewing DRVs. Actually, it is not; DRV is intended to obtain cloture, not to be a court of infinite appeals. As an example, see the history of DRVs for "The Game", which I detailed back in May 2007 at Misplaced Pages talk:Deletion review/Archive 11#The Game (game) - lots of speedy closed DRVs for failing to offer meaningful new arguments. On the same page see #User:UBX/Suicide and the following sections for comment on DRVs of DRVs. (There was a battle related to this around that timeframe, which did end up going to one of last year's biggest failures by ArbComm.) If you don't read anything else here, please read Xoloz's long post in Misplaced Pages talk:Deletion review/Archive 10#What is the role of deletion review (which is earlier than the other linked discussions). This post is the best articulation of DRVs basic process that I've encountered. Since the time of Xoloz's post we've moved somewhat away from a straight numbers based decisioning in DRV policy and practice, but DRV is still far more about the numbers than anything except RFA and the arbitrator's voting in RFAR.
7. (Numbered points 3 and 4). Editors personal experience of being LGBT, or experiencing homophobia is not valid for use in an article, and hence not a valid type of potential collaboration. Their personal experience would be original research violating WP:NOR and WP:V, foundation level policy. With such use ruled out, unless one intends to violate WP:NPOV, Category:Wikipedians interested in LGBT issues is unquestionably superior to the category under discussion precisely because that category will include those who disagree with being LGBTR. WP:NPOV is also foundation level policy, so these arguments are completely invalid.
8. (Numbered point 5 and the followup) WP:USERCAT was never more than a proposal, and one that we know failed to gain consensus. Accordingly, it adds no weight to anything. With a lot of rhetoric in this item, you don't actually make any new arguments. The substantive arguments here repeat those in points 3 and 4, and fail identically.

DGG's appears to have completely missed DRV#1, which wasn't linked in this discussion, because he speaks of "the DRV" - singular, when there were two. How he missed it when the close of the most recent prior DRV begins "Deletion endorsed again." is beyond me - but it doesn't speak to a solid examination of DRV#2 on his part - or to memory of his participation in DRV#1. When he missed such a basic point, it is hard to take his evaluation of the close of DRV#2 seriously. Since the "interested in" category was created immediately following the close of DRV#2 and had been suggested and argued for therein, it's existence is as close as possible for DRV to come to a compromise on a category.

At the core, DGG is questioning the overall consensus about these policies. (This is incidentally not a new opinion from him; in DRV#1 he said "Overturn there is no consistent consensus about these categories.") Again, the close reflects that what the policy is and should be is a legitimate question for a policy page discussion or policy change can be evidenced at the daily grind of UCFD, but it is not one that can be resolved at DRV. As far as I can tell, there is a settled consensus here, which consensus is reflected in the many endorse deletion opinions in the DRVs and in Xoloz's, Chick Bowen's, and my closes of the three DRVs. Evidence of any change in that consensus was not offered in any of the DRVs. GRBerry 20:36, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with the close too, because I think it violates WP:NOT and WP:CONSENSUS. This debate is being bounced from pillar to post in something resembling classic bureaucratic style and people's opinions are being ignored in violation of WP:CONSENSUS. Hiding T 17:52, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Please read the reply to Jay*Jay, your arguments are addressed therein. After DRV#2, Category:Wikipedians interested in LGBT issues was created, and absent a massive change in practice across a wide spectrum of user categories, I can't see any arguments that would say this proposed category should be used instead of that one. GRBerry 20:36, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

A "massive change in practice across a wide range of user categories" - but there are already many "demographic" user cats eg users by religion. DuncanHill (talk) 21:14, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

(ec) That boatloads of stuff gets created is not really what I consider relevant; the effort to create something is much less than the effort to get rid of it. And with userboxes that include categories, many people end up in categories they never chose to join. What I consider relevant is what happens when it gets discussed - meaning at UCFD after a nomination for renaming or deletion. GRBerry 21:31, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Would you support deletion of all the other "demographic" or "lifestyle" user cats? Or only those relating to sexuality? DuncanHill (talk) 21:15, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

As far as I know, all subcategories of Category:Wikipedians by lifestyle (and it's subcategory Category:Wikipedians by sexuality) were previously deleted. I didn't care enough to participate in the relevant discussions, but also don't object to them being deleted.

I think most demographic and lifestyle categories should be renamed or deleted under current best practices. The exception that I'm aware of is location categories (location being demographic data). Editors in a location can take photos relevant to local articles, and can research in their local historical societies and libraries much more easily than other editors can do the same. (In theory, I could have flown half way round the world to Burma to get a picture for Zayat; instead I requested a picture.) There are limits to this; Category:Wikipedians in Hibberts Gore, Maine (population: 1) is an obvious example of a category we don't need. And I'm aware from recent UCFD discussion that the location categories don't have a clear consensus in favor of their existence, but also don't have a clear consensus against their existence. GRBerry 21:31, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Category:Wikipedians by religion would be the place to start if you think that lifestyle usercats should go. DuncanHill (talk) 21:36, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Just as I didn't participate in the UCFDs for the lifestyle categories, I won't be making UCFD nominations for any of the subcategories there. I rarely participate in CFD, and user pages and their issues are far less important than article pages. GRBerry 14:23, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I did read it, and it doesn't. This issue is being pushed from pillar to post in something resembling classic bureaucratic style and people's opinions are being ignored in violation of WP:CONSENSUS. There is nothing in your response to Jay*Jay which addresses the bureaucratic nature of the whole issue. In fact, reading your reply to Jay*Jay indicates to me you believe Misplaced Pages is a bureaucracy. I doubt that is your belief, but that is what I infer. Hiding T 10:14, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Again, a compromise was put in place following DRV#2 and that originated therein. So you are just wrong when you claim people are being ignored. That a compromise is not everyone's number one choice as to the outcome is inherent in the nature of it being a compromise, but their desire for something different is not evidence that they have been ignored.

Misplaced Pages is not many things, including a bureaucracy, an anarchy, and a democracy. It is also not an infinite debate forum nor a system where whoever persists most tendetiously in their complaints is supposed to always get what they want. Especially when they fail utterly to supply facts or compelling arguments to support their views. GRBerry 14:23, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

You seem to be disagreeing with our policy at Misplaced Pages:Consensus. Ultimately you are stating that we have binding decisions. I would also appreciate it if you did not characterise me as tendentious, since I do not believe I am. I have tried to avoid personal attacks in this debate and would like to be treated the same. Thanks, Hiding T 11:19, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

GRBerry, I would like to thank you for taking the time to respond in detail. I appreciate you providing an explanation of the interpretation as you see it. I find it interesting to see you view the purpose of deletion review as not involving the review of failures to apply policy, or of admin errors, but rather as a pseudo-vote. I have not been around particularly long, and have no reason to doubt that your view reflects standard practice. Nevertheless, to me this simply indicates that the "review" is nothing of the sort, and that substantial change is needed to this process. Consensus is fine, but should not trump the dispassionate application of policy principles. Hypothetically, if I could get enough people to support me, I might be able to claim the George W. Bush article should be deleted as non-noteworthy and claim consensus. Now, suppose only one person at the AfD disputed me. Surely the closing admin should still not actually delete it because that action would violate policy, consensus or no. I see this issue in the same way. The notion that lots of people agree is irrelevant, as none of that consensus changes the fact that the decision was unsupported by policy. The fact that accepted practice means the principle is irrelevant simply means accepted practice is also wrong. Now, I'm not asking you to do anything, as the resolution of this situation will occur by other means. However, I do feel the need to respond to one substantial misinterpretation of the argument I advanced, and then to make an observation.

In composing your response point 7, you have not understood the point I was making. Perhaps I did not make myself clear, in which case I am sorry for that fact. However, LGBT editors have experience which cannot be suggested to be equivalent to those of people "interested" in the issue. I was not suggesting that those experiences should be incorporated in violation of WP:NOR or WP:V. However, those users are more likely to have read extensively on such subjects, to be aware of suitable reference material and of its content, and to be aware of WP:RS perspectives necessary for genuinely making a WP:NPOV article. By the way, the supposed "compromise" in the 'interested in' category is way way smaller than the much younger present category. Perhaps its potential to include the homophobes who are interested in LGBT issues might explain its unpopularity with LGBT editors.

My observation is that the refusal to consider the implications of WP:IAR in this case (and not just by you) will lead to far more disruption. Note the comment from DuncanHill. What do you think will happen if this issue ends up with a deletion of category:Christian Wikipedians and category:Jewish Wikipedians as not useful for collaboration (just to start)? Jay*Jay (talk) 12:19, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

In the first half of your first paragraph, I need to correct a misconception. The mechanics of DRV approximate a vote. The valid opinions/votes must attempt to apply policy. So the purpose of DRV is to determine if 1) the correct result has obtained (endorse outcome), 2) a different result is clearly correct (overturn outcome) or 3) more discussion in an appropriate forum is needed (relist outcome), but this purpose is reflected in the job of the opiners far more than in the role of the closer. The opiners in a DRV are expected to dispassionately apply all the site policies to the facts of a case, and the closer is expected to determine what the decision of those who have applied policy is. If it is at DRV, it is assumed that there is the potential for legitimate disagreement about what the policies and facts require, so it is extremely dangerous for a DRV closer to believe that they get to substitute their judgment on policy for those of the opiners. But the DRV closer should ignore or severly lower the weight assigned to sockpuppets and potential sockpuppets, those who are wrong on the facts, those who are contradicting policy, and those who are emoting instead of applying policy.

IAR is not meant as a tool for disregarding the opinions of those with whom one disagrees. It is meant as a tool for disregarding the minutiae of policy in order to efficiently improve the encyclopedia in ways that would receive wide and clear consensus support if we took the time to discuss them at length. If there is one thing that was clear when DRV#3 started, it was that prior discussions had demonstrated no such wide and clear consensus in favor of the existence of the category under discussion existed. If the religious categories are deleted, or more likely renamed, that won't matter much. Some editors will feel that their feathers have been ruffled, but the vast majority currently in the categories won't notice or care, because they are only there due to the category being coded into a userbox that they have on their page for reasons other than category membership. GRBerry 15:34, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

See: Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2008 January 21. Could you please address the following issues?

1. WP:NOT does not state anything explicit regarding this category or similar ones
2. No harm is shown being created by the category
3. Most importantly: the closure of the previous review

Also, could you please count for me the number of votes opposing and endorsing the Jan 8 review and this one? Thanks. Hyacinth (talk) 01:46, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

For point 1, you are wrong. WP:NOT#MYSPACE says "Wikipedians have their own user pages, but they may be used only to present information relevant to working on the encyclopedia. ... The focus of user pages should not be social networking, but rather providing a foundation for effective collaboration. ... User categories are to be used for collaboration on Misplaced Pages articles only." This explicitly says that any user categories, which appear on user pages, must provide a foundation for effective collaboration and must not be used for other purposes. William P. Coleman's argument in deletion review directly contradicts the last sentence of this policy, which you added to the explicit text on 20 January but which also reflects long standing practice in interpreting this section.

Neither significant benefit to the encyclopedia nor significant harm to the encyclopedia from this specific category was demonstrated in any of the three DRVs. Slight harms and benefits have been argued for.

The closure of DRV#2 reflected first and foremost that it was in fact DRV #2, which is why the closure begins "Deletion endorsed again". Since it was DRV#2, the WP:PARENT portion of the consensus policy indicates that DRV#2 should not get a different outcome than DRV#1 absent clear evidence of a change in consensus, which did not appear. I see in DRV#2 no new arguments in favor of overturning the close that weren't presented in DRV#1. I see in DRV#2 no user who endorsed deletion in DRV#1 changing their opinion to say they were wrong then.

Counting bare votes, without regard to whether the arguments are any good, in DRV#3 I see 5-6 editors in favor of at least relisting (fewer in favor of a straight overturn) and 7-10 who opposed. When I look at whether the arguments are valid application of policy to the facts, I disregard your nomination as contradicted by the self-evident facts (the only argument therein being that the consensus of the prior DRVs weren't documented, but both of them have clear and unambiguous closes in the log), William P. Coleman as directly contradicting policy, Jay*Jay because his arguments for overturning contradict fact or policy. The three of you were given essentially no weight. DGG was given limited weight, because he produced no evidence that consensus had changed and appeared (see above) to have completely forgotten about DRV#1 (in which he participated) and to have missed that the close of DRV#2 began by referencing DRV#1. Hiding mostly attempted to apply policy, but appealed to disregard DRV's purpose of reaching cloture and relist for the sake of testing whether or not consensus had changed - contradicting DRVs purpose of reaching cloture. This is not a compelling argument, especially in the absence of any evidence that it had already changed, but in combination with the concerns of others did merit that my closing statement give direction on how a change in consensus should be evidenced. I do not see a single opinion for endorsing deletion that is wrong on the facts or wrong in policy. So when I look at the good reasons within just this debate, there is a clear consensus to endorse, and the close reflects this. When I look across all three debates and the UCFD, the consensus is even more clear to me than it is from just the third. GRBerry 16:47, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Please could you elaborate on how you allocated "weights" to various editor when "counting" the number of people either for/against the decision. In particular, I would like you to make clear reference to Misplaced Pages policies for this. All that I see is a "subjective" process, rather than an objective one. I have never read anything in Misplaced Pages policy about being able to

disregard your nomination as contradicted by the self-evident facts

or

The three of you were given essentially no weight.

.

Your basis appears un-sound and suugests that you have a higher ranking or weight than many other editors, which is the sign of a cabal in operation. Olana North (talk) 08:39, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I also quote the following from "Jimbo" Wales

There must be no cabal, there must be no elites, there must be no hierarchy ...

.

I judge that your behaviour appears to be in direct contravention of Misplaced Pages's highest policymaker ... Jimbo Wales. Olana North (talk) 09:31, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I think the positions we have reached is broadly that editors who publicly identify as LGBT think the cat does provide a foundation for effective collaboration, but that the "community" (ie the tiny minority of editors who participated in the various debates) don't. The question then is, does Misplaced Pages allow editors to decide for themselves if something is enabling their collaboration, or are certain forms of self-identification to be censored (and "Misplaced Pages is not censored" is always a lie - Misplaced Pages is explicitely censored for BLP concerns, copyvios, abuse, etc). I think it is legitimate to bring the "real world" into the debate here. Organizations which suppress public expression of sexual orientation always fewer LGBT people than organizations which allow it. This is why many western employers now encourage self-identification and self-organization, as the recruitment and retention of "the best" requires that no sector of society is caused to feel unwanted or excluded - this is a matter of "good practice" in employment. Volunteers are "employees" (in "real life" I manage volunteers) - does Misplaced Pages truly want a broad spectrum of experience and outlook from its workers? The Misplaced Pages "community" is, in my experience, reluctant to counter homophobia, and this has the effect of preventing some editors from contributing to the full extent possible. This damages Misplaced Pages. A usercat allowing those editors who so wish to self-identify as queer (or LGBT, or whatever their preferred designation) enhances and promotes collaboration and effective editing by shewing a visible presence and likely network of support. It also discourages homophobic actions by the simple fact of visibility. So, to conclude, the bureaucratic process (and the Misplaced Pages is massively bureaucratic) may well have been followed correctly - but it has had a deleterious effect on the operation of the Misplaced Pages. DuncanHill (talk) 17:14, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I simply say what I said before--the discussions everywhere all indicate that there is no consensus. The close at DRV1/2 showed total disagreement. The close on that one was a total and explicit refusal to follow consensus at the DRV, but saying it was following consensus at the original UCfD, which is preference of ones own view about the issue & misunderstanding of the role of DelRev. The latest DRV was less of a mistake--it merely claimed a " clear consensus," which seems a clear misreading of the discussion, but in GF. However, GR also said that a policy discussion page would be the best place to revisit the entire issue, and he is right about that. (as for the one at which I did not comment--I do not comment of every DRV, wanting to retain some degree of connection to the outside world.) DGG (talk) 17:59, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

GRBerry, though I sympathize with you in that you feel supporters of undeletion made the wrong vote, the definition of "consensus" isn't "correct". Hyacinth (talk) 07:57, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

DRV

Note I replied to your comment. Secret 04:50, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Matthew Hoffman

This arbitration case has been closed and the final decision is available at the link above. The Arbitration Committee finds that the blocks on User:MatthewHoffman were unjustified. It also states that Vanished user's adminship will be waived at this time. Vanished user may regain his sysop access by application to the Committee, upon demonstration of six months editing in compliance with communal norms and conduct standards. If regained, he will then be placed on parole with regard to both conduct and admin tool use for a further period of six months. For the Arbitration Committee, Cbrown1023 talk 13:53, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

WP:BLP

I'm looking forward to the immensely high standards of civility that will result when you also redact all the attacks on Mantanmoreland, Samiharris and Weiss from that debate. Might take a while, it's all over the place. Guy (Help!) 08:09, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

WP:AE

Re: Diff, you have there a warning from Jehochman (talk · contribs) to JustaHulk (talk · contribs), and comments from ChrisO (talk · contribs) and Brianmc (talk · contribs). So when you said above: Both editors should probably be advised to behave civilly toward one another... - I do not understand why you had to phrase this as "both editors..." when clearly the issue is with the one editor, JustaHulk (talk · contribs). Cirt (talk) 19:26, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

And as JustaHulk (talk · contribs) has already been warned by Jehochman (talk · contribs), I do not see what another note on his talk page would really do to curb this sort of behavior. Cirt (talk) 19:27, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Re: "Thoughts", I am concerned at the way you are phrasing this: "dust up", and such. This was not a matter of a "dust up", this is really just obvious one-sided harassment, which Jehochman (talk · contribs) called and "Obsession" that "must end". Cirt (talk) 19:30, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

• I am curious, do you give no weight or concern to the comments by Brianmc (talk · contribs) and Jehochman (talk · contribs) about this user, or do you merely view this as a "dust up" between two parties? If so then perhaps you do not realize that it is JustaHulk (talk · contribs), not myself, who has been placing notices and complaints at Jimbo Wales (talk · contribs)'s talk pages and at WP:ANI... Cirt (talk) 19:32, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Response

No, I did not realize that WP:AE was not the right place to post about this, and for that I apologize. Did you not see ChrisO (talk · contribs)'s comment about that at WP:AE? Cirt (talk) 19:34, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Did you see that I posted a comment at WP:ANI, that I reposted the complaint there, because of your comment? Again, I apologize if WP:AE was the wrong place to bring this up, I will not bring this up there again. If this harassment continues, what is the next proper venue?? Cirt (talk) 19:35, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I did, which was part of why I took an educational tone. WP:DR gives the guidance on dispute resolution. The general order is 1) negotiate civilly directly with the other party, 2) avoid each other, 3) get outside help. The details get tricky; for getting outside help the COI noticeboard, Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette alerts, Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/User, and mediation appear to be at least reasonable places to consider, once you get to the third phase. GRBerry 19:44, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Again, GRBerry (talk · contribs), will you accept my apology for posting to WP:AE and believe me that I will not post there again about JustaHulk (talk · contribs)/Justanother (talk · contribs)? From my perspective, I have been avoiding him, and yet he continues to post harassment at WP:ANI and Jimbo Wales (talk · contribs)'s talk page, among other places including the user page for User:JustaHulk and User:Justanother, where it still says "propagandist..." and no one has done anything about that, even though this is at least the 3rd time he has used the wording "propagandist..." with zero action taken. Steps 1 and 2 have been attempted, what is the proper path for step 3, if no Admin will take any action save for an equally measured warning to both parties, as if we are both equally responsible for his harassment and for his "Obsession" that "must end", as Jehochman (talk · contribs) put it?? Cirt (talk) 19:49, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't get it, so the user is allowed to keep the inflammatory remarks "propagandist..." up at both User:Justanother and User:JustaHulk, with zero actions taken? Cirt (talk) 16:15, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Timing

Do you feel that your timing with respect to the Science apologist probation action left something to be desired? PouponOnToast (talk) 21:36, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi Poupon, I don't follow your question. Are you commenting on the time GR took to investigate or is there some issue going on in parallel that the block impacts? From my perspective, it seems like GR evaluated the case fully and acted after due consideration. Ronnotel (talk) 21:46, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I believe that investigations should be transparent and the parties should be given the oppourtunity to respond, apologize and moderate. It does not appear that either of you were granted that oppourtunity, that there was a 48 hour lag time without any sort of update. PouponOnToast (talk) 21:48, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, not to retry the case, but there is black-letter policy that equates use of the term POV-Pusher with incivility, a clear violation under SA's ArbCom restriction. That alone should be enough to support GRBerry's action. However, GR went further and investigated my claim that SA assumed bad faith when he called me a POV-Pusher. As he determined from the history of Cold fusion and the mediation page, nothing could be further from the truth and I appreciate that he took the time to verify that. I see nothing fishy whatsoever in the investigation. And as you can see from SA's talk page, SA seems to have taken little away from this episode and continues his crusade to label me as some sort of kook. Ronnotel (talk) 21:59, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

(ec)If I didn't think the delay "left something to be desired", I wouldn't have said "Apologies to all for my delay in returning to this". Frankly, I was surprised that no other admin had closed out the report previously; there is no expectation at that board that the first admin to comment will also make a final decision. You can look at the last four reports involving him for examples; in three of the four reports multiple admins commented before the resolution. GRBerry 22:08, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. For future reference, I find that if an issue has resolved itself, taking action seems punative rather than preventative. I am hopeful that your block will make SA realize that it is imperative that users of this encyclopedia couch their disdain for the utter crackballs that edit here with the intent to push their innane theories in third-person terms (like I just did!) and by reference to their despicable disruptive disreputable actions rather than their vlie and heinous motives. It seems to me that he could use assistance from editors who support the encyclopedia over a bunch of total nutters who believe the moon is made of green cheese that lets off energy as opposed to constant reproachment massively after the fact. PouponOnToast (talk) 22:12, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Judging from the e-mail he sent to me, I highly doubt that he will correct his actions in the future. "Guess what? Because of your little comment, I now cannot take part in the conversation for a week." He considers disrupting Mediation with edit warring and etc. to be nothing more than conversations, adding to the fact that he did not participate in initial discussions or Arguments at Mediation, and only began POV-pushing when the lead began to be edited. Please move on, you are doing nothing more than forum shopping for support. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 22:20, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

My administrative action is being questioned, I consider my talk page a suitable venue for that, and don't view this as forum shopping. GRBerry 22:22, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't intend to request that SA be unblocked. If he made such a request, I'm not entirely certain what I'd think of it. I wish GRBerry had taken action earlier, or asked SA to apologize for his inapropriate remark before taking action. PouponOnToast (talk) 22:38, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

(ec) I saw nothing to make me even suspect the situation has resolved itself. No apologies, no acknolwedgment by SA that he had done anything wrong. SA has a history of this sort of behavior, and had been explicitly warned on 7 February against some of the specific words he used in the diffs in the report. If he repeats behavior he was warned against only a few days later, there is absolutely no reason to believe that his behavior patterns have been resolved. And the point of the arbitration remedy is to get his pattern of behavior to change. Until his pattern of behavior has changed, the situation isn't resolved, and we shouldn't pretend it is. GRBerry 22:22, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I believe if you engaged in a substantial review of SA's behavior over the past 4 weeks you would find significant improvements (though not complete) in civility. SA, and others who support encyclopedic content against crackballs trying to push their raving kookasaurus theories on the encyclopedia are often left out to dry and leave the bounds of civility behind. It is indisputed that SA, when he is not off the rails, is a substantial benefit to the encyclopedia, defending it from total fucking nutters. I believe that consistant support and assistance is the solution, not to slap him every time he jumps off the track. I look forward to your support in helping him take right actions to get rid of the plague of monetarily-influenced pseudoscientific fraudsters that is infesting our articles on science and technology (and economics, and buisness, and politics, and pretty much everything else.) PouponOnToast (talk) 22:38, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Poupon, you seem very well versed in WP history and SA, more so than your three weeks or so of WP editing would suggest. Is this your first account? Ronnotel (talk) 22:45, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Huh, his first edit was in February 2007. Looks like a year to me. GRBerry 22:50, 14 February 2008 (UTC) However, this is known to be a second account for this user, see User talk:PouponOnToast#Warning. I have no clue what the prior account was, nor do I particularly care to learn. GRBerry 22:53, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

This is not my first account. My other account was too closely linked to my real life identity, and I vanished it in the summer of 2007, scrambling the password. PouponOnToast (talk) 22:54, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Please note that I have filed a case at WP:SSP. Ronnotel (talk) 04:35, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

As an aside, your ability to deal with disagreement is refreshingly mature and appreciated, GRBerry. PouponOnToast (talk) 12:35, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Mantanmoreland

An Arbitration case in which you commented has been opened, and is located here. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Mantanmoreland/Evidence. Please submit your evidence within one week, if possible. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Mantanmoreland/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, — Rlevse • Talk • 23:04, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your timeline. It really helps people like me, who are only aware of Mantanmoreland's more recent work. Cool Hand Luke 05:57, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

This evidence section is really interesting. I didn't notice the drop in edits for last November until you drew my attention to it (it's not as obvious as the India shift). Anyhow, perhaps you could also supplement it with this table:

Granted, I can't figure out why Samiharris almost stopped editing in April, but I still think it's notable that November was the only month where either editor had only single digits. Cool Hand Luke 01:30, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Since I didn't produce the table from my own research, I shouldn't put it into evidence. Feel free to yourself. GRBerry 01:51, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

In your section? Cool Hand Luke 01:57, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd add it to yours, with an explanatory note, just as you would any other reply to someone else's evidence. Since I was just looking at the chart by eyeball and hadn't pulled the data, the closeness of the dates is particularly striking. GRBerry 04:00, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, I've now linked Wannabe Kate in my evidence, which provides the same data from a tool that the arbs should already be familiar with. GRBerry 20:05, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh yeah, wannabekate's. That's good. Thank you. Cool Hand Luke 20:11, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

WP:AE

Hi - thanks for looking at my WP:AE filing regarding Ferrylodge (talk · contribs). The issue of whether his ArbCom sanctions applied to talkspace came up before; Thatcher commented at the time that talkspace disruption was included, though there would be generally be greater latitude there than in articlespace. I'm not sure whether this has any impact on your feeling that no action is required, but I thought I'd mention that it had come up before. MastCell  06:35, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

FYI, the thread that Mastcell started at WP:AE includes discussion of Thatcher's comment.Ferrylodge (talk) 19:37, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes; that discussion took place after GRBerry commented. I was unsure if he was aware of the fact that your talk-page behavior has come up before, and if this would affect his opinion in any way. If the answer to #2 is no, then I'm done. MastCell  19:39, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't have much influence on my opinion. It was after I posted, but not after my last review of that page last night. I'm at least as influenced by Kirill's clarification today that "'Page' (as opposed to the narrower 'article') applies to all namespaces. Kirill 13:42, 21 February 2008 (UTC)". Since Kirill is an abritrator, and Thatcher isn't (though he is more experienced in WP:AE than I am), I consider Kirill's comment more accurate. There certainly is a level of talkspace disruption that is actionable; but my read of this particular case is that such action would be ordinary administrative action, not arbitration enforcement. (Much as someone on civility parole can be blocked for violating WP:3RR without it affecting their civility parole.) There is also a lesser level of disruption that might not itself be actionable but merit a request to the committee to expand the remedy. My comment last night mentioned the latter possibility, but was meant to be read as saying that I didn't see evidence presented or logged in the obvious place of a pattern of such behavior.

Also, note that I didn't close the report, I made a recommendation. I, as an admin, have been a DRV specialist. As I move to WP:AE I'm consciously choosing to comment first, and if no other WP:AE admin closes or comments for a while then I may come back and close the report. If another admin closes it, I'll try to learn from what they do. GRBerry 20:29, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I didn't mean to press the issue, only to ask whether you'd seen Andrew c's note (which you had). I hadn't seen Kirill's comment you pointed out, which is obviously relevant here. I'll take it over to request an expansion of the ArbCom remedy; I think that's a good suggestion. Thanks for your response. MastCell  21:28, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Response to user identity warning

I listed that particular user by their username, it just happens that that user says on their user page that it also happens to be their real name (which I don't know if it's true or not). I've added that comment back in a clarified form. --Minderbinder (talk) 18:31, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I misunderstood your pronoun antecedent, I had thought you were referring to Whig. With the clarification, there is no problem. Thanks. GRBerry 18:39, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

No problem...I hope it was OK to repost the clarified version of that comment. --Minderbinder (talk) 18:44, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely. If someone says they have a real name, it is ok to use it. Literally no problem. It also helped make it clear to me that this report should be closed. GRBerry 18:47, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Don't see it

Thanks for the feedback. Sorry, but I don't see the error you refer to. Could you quote it to me? Feel free to respond here or on my talk. alanyst 04:38, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

RfB

They're discussing it at WP:RfA... And while I'll have to admit that I haven't always agreed with your opinions/perspectives, I was rather impressed with your comments after an incident involving a DRV closure. I think that you're a "thoughtful" (as Shakespeare used the word) individual, and you should easily be trustworthy of the "extra tools". Would you be interested? - jc37 05:02, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Now is not the time. I am too angry with the current power structure right now to get any closer to it even if you could guarantee an unopposed candidacy. And I've probably pissed off too many players of wikipolitics, many of them admins, to have a chance at any time. GRBerry 11:45, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I am disappointed, but I do understand. I wish you well : ) - jc37 18:28, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Time for coding

Thank you so much for stepping in. I'll defer to you as a deletion review expert. Have fun, and try not to get Abd banned in the process? :-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 20:42, 29 February 2008 (UTC) And now, back to wikidata-api

Don't know if you were aware

Kim is a he. --Kbdank71 21:14, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Are you sure I'm not a dog? --Kim Bruning (talk) 23:12, 29 February 2008 (UTC) w00f!

Proposal RE: User:Mikkalai's vow of silence

You are a previous participant in the discussion at WP:AN/I about User:Mikkalai's vow of silence. This is to inform you, that I have made a proposal for resolution for the issue. I am informing all of the users who participated, so this is not an attempt to WP:CANVAS support for any particular position.

The proposal can be found at: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Proposed resolution (Mikkalai vow of silence) Jerry talk ¤ count/logs 02:06, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

TV case

I think there should be a clarification on the TV episodes case. THe "currently existing clause" can be interpreted different ways. You may be techinically correct but the spirit of the ruling includes new articles. — Rlevse • Talk • 13:19, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

If you want to request expansion go ahead. I read the spirit as trying to put an end to the warring. Blatantly poor brand new articles may well need to be deleted, merged, or redirected. ("American idol, season N, episode X is the episode when we finally got rid of A and B, both of whom are atrocious and fat and can't carry a tune in a bucket...") And editors that know about the case should not be creating articles. If you can see an expansion that will help, propose it. But the fourth arbitrator to support the injunction explicitly noted new articles as a loophole, so I feel the position I took is the likely outcome of a clarification. On the other hand, adding the report to evidence could influence the case outcome - or not - I'm not following that one closely, but it sure looks like the Arbs are coming down on 1 editor who is not a party to the report and not on any other individual editors. GRBerry 21:36, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

DRV

Hello My Friend,

I did something you probably didn't expect and closed straight away with a reopening. Unless he's having an unusually nasty day, Kim is good-natured, and should take any result that ultimately saves time in stride. The point of retiring ought to be that one wants to avoid these messes anyway; ergo, I am moving things forward as if the MfD closure never happened. If nothing else, Kim was wrong to take B's arguments so lightly, but that is a perfectly nature thing for a "retired" fellow -- who has never worked with B, I assume -- to do. Best wishes, Xoloz (talk) 18:42, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

SELF NOTE

At AN/I, I promised to investigate the indefinite block of EliasAlucard (talk · contribs). The blocking admin had said that he would reverse if one admin disagreed. 22

36, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Chrisjnelson

I was unaware of a prior ArbCom decision concerning him until now, and I wish I had known when I approached him on his user talk page about his actions on Trent Green yesterday. His attitude is completely unacceptable. Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 02:01, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

WP:AE closure

Hi - I'm a bit confused by the closure of the Ferrylodge AE thread, and was hoping to ask you to clarify and/or review it. The guidance in the Ferrylodge thread leaned toward applying his sanction to all namespaces. I think I understand your reference to the Macedonia finding. In light of your closure, I asked User:Rlevse to re-open my request for an explicit amendment extending Ferrylodge's sanctions to all namespaces, because I think it's important, if the sanctions against Ferrylodge are to have any positive effect, that they be applied in talkspace. Rlevse responded that "It applies to all namespaces" (). I'm confused.

Can I ask you to touch base with Rlevse? Either a) Rlevse's statement that Ferrylodge's sanctions apply to all namespaces is correct, or b) if Ferrylodge's sanction is being narrowly construed, then I need my request un-archived because I think it is essential that Ferrylodge's sanctions apply to all namespaces in order to have any positive effect. As a separate issue, if you feel (as I do) that there is actionable disruption by Ferrylodge, then would you be willing to act on it outside the confines of the ArbCom decision? I'm a bit frustrated, because he has repeatedly talked his way out of any effective enforcement of the sanctions, and the same problems which led to the case in the first place are still in evidence. MastCell  05:10, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

May I comment briefly? Mastcell argues that I have repeatedly "talked" my way out of enforcement of sanctions, and Mastcell cites an incident from last year in which he was not involved. However, ArbCom has said that, "The restriction is meant to be imposed on a case-by-case basis by an admin. Ferrylodge is not under any general ban." I do not understand how a case-by-case analysis is facilitated by dredging up past incidents.

Additionally, I am getting the sinking feeling that the present incident is never going to end. On 21 February, Mastcell said at the Administrator's Noticeboard, "I'm not going to shop it around - if GRBerry feels this is either passable behavior or outside ArbCom's remit, I'll accept that." Subsequently Mastcell changed his mind, and decided to shop it around. Arbitrators then commented on the matter, and eight days later the discussion returned to the Administrator's Noticeboard. On 29 February, GRBerry asked Mastcell and me, "Do you both want me to apply my understanding of the case as I read it from the clarifications to date and then close out the thread?" Mastcell replied: "Yes, so long as you feel (as I do) that there's been adequate guidance from ArbCom, that would be fine. This thread has gone on long enough." But apparently it still has not gone on long enough, and still the decision is not acceptable to Mastcell, and still Mastcell desires to shop it around.

I would very much like to move on. However, if Mastcell would like to discuss the specific remarks that I made to IronAngelAlice that gave rise to this incident, then I would be willing to do that at my talk page or at Mastcell's. What I am not willing to do is repeatedly get what purports to be a final resolution as to whether I will be sanctioned, only to have Mastcell talk his way out of that final resolution. This all seems very unfair to me.Ferrylodge (talk) 06:02, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Mastcell, please review Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia#Request for clarification re Macedonia case, which was running on the page at the same time and received more arbitrator input. The arbitrators there came to a clear decision that they said should apply "to other cases with the same basic question". That basic question is which wording covers which namespaces. Even had the ArbComm clarified that it was clearly intended to cover talk pages; I was probably not going to act. Using an article's talkpage to discuss article content is not inherently disruptive; that is the intended purpose of the talk page. Since the thread resolved as moot due to article changes more than a week ago; there certainly is no ongoing disruption now. GRBerry 14:08, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Chrisjnelson

Thanks for your further consideration on the Chrisjnelson block. I think your ultimate resolution was a very reasonable one, and as indicated we do appreciate your putting some time in on Misplaced Pages:Arbitration enforcement, which is the epitome of a thankless administrator task. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 05:29, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

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