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Osroene Etymology

I forgot to sign in before adding the section on etymology, so I'm just letting everyone know it was my addition.Šarukinu 18:14, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

POV

This article considers Arabs and Arameans as Assyrian a claim totally absurd. Brusk u Trishka 21:48, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Their was no Arabic language in Northern Mesopotamia in the second century. It is wishful thinking and impossible for this kingdom to be considered arab. Chaldean 00:09, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, Britannica says it was ruled under numerous Arab dynasties before Islamic conquest. Brusk u Trishka 00:13, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Post it here before you edit the page. Show me your sources PLEASE. Chaldean 00:15, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Under various Arab dynasties, it became a centre of reaction against Hellenism and the headquarters of Chaldean Syriac literature and learning. It fell to the Muslims in 638. Brusk u Trishka 00:24, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Under various Arab dynasties, it became a centre of reaction against Hellenism and the headquarters of Chaldean Syriac literature and learning. It fell to the Muslims in 638. - When did the Arabs started to control it? After 638? After 300? Osroene was abolished long before the Arab expansion into Mesopotamia. Chaldean 00:28, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Please note that Arabs were ruling Osroene long time before the Muslim expansion during Parthian period. An Arab sheikh from Osroene helped the Parthians defeat Crassus in 53 BC.

Catholic Encyclopedia gives a more clear image of the history of Osroene and it mentions Pr-Islamic Arabs ruling the region. Axtually I'm not intersted in this article; sorry! Brusk u Trishka 00:43, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Also I knowledge that in the classical period Eddesa was the most important concentration of Syriacs. Brusk u Trishka 00:45, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

There is some evidence that an Arab sheikh was appointed to govern Osrhoene in Seleucid times and that the Osrhoenian royal family were descended from that line. This seems to have happened in a number of Seleucid provinces, while Adiabene's royal family appears quite Hellenised. — Gareth Hughes 17:38, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I think a compromise can be reached by saying that it was a Syriac-speaking region with Arab rulers. Nevertheless, I have not been able to find neutral sources on the Assyrian character of the kingdom though. By the way aina.com, a partisan assyrian website, is not neutral. I searched books.google and scholar.google and other repositories, but I was not able to locate any Assyrian word in academic documents about Osroene. My own feeling though is that the name should be related to the ancient assyrians, but there is no relaible source confirming this.Heja Helweda 21:45, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

The name of the province is a hellenized form of the Iranian (male) name Xosrow. That Arab sheikh had an Iranic name and the province has been named after him.

by the way aina is not neutral!). by the way, aina did not write that article, but an respectable Assyriologist did! Chaldean 21:47, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Has been published in a scholarly journal? If yes then it OK, if not then it can not reliable.Heja Helweda 21:50, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Do a search and you will find an Assyrian identity of Osroene. Exmaples:

" the name of Osroene from Syriac 'Azruina" - The Aramaeans: Their Ancient History, Culture, Religion by Edward Lipinski ]

Other examples: ] ] Also search by spelling Osroene differently and with Syriac/Syrian. Chaldean 21:56, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

As for your question, its not like this guy is a nobody. He has over 300 of his work be published ] Chaldean 21:59, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Did I say he is not academic? I said his paper that you referred to is not published in peer-reviewed journals. Moreover this source talks about Edessa and says that ancient Assyrians once controlled it, but it does not say that Osroene was Assyrian. There is several centuries between Assyria and Osroene. The second one is also very vague, I could not see where it says that Osoroene was Assyrian.Heja Helweda 22:03, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

There is several centuries between Assyria and Osroene - no their isn't. See Assyria (Persian province) Chaldean 22:08, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Here is another interesting paper as well ] - Syriac Literature. Not Arabic. More: "The Old Syriac Inscriptions of Edessa and Osrhoene" ] This right here also verifies the language of the kingdom: ] Kingdom being Assyrian descent: ]. "Osrhoene means Assyrian and is only another way of spelling Assyrian" - The Revival of Spiritual Healing The Revival of Spiritual Healing - Page 217 by Barsom J. Kashish - Biography & Autobiography - 2002 ]Chaldean 22:21, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Britannica/Arabs

The 1911 Britannica only mentions Arabs in Osroene and there is nothing about Assyrians in its article on Osroene: About 130 B.C. Edessa was occupied by a nomadic Arabic tribe, the Orrhoei (Plin. v. 85; vi. 25, 117, 129), who founded a small state ruled by their chieftains with the title of kings.Heja Helweda 22:27, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Ignore all the sources I have brought to the table because of one source? Um No. Chaldean 22:29, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

By the way, occupied can mean Arab rulers were occupying the Syriac speaking people of Osroene. Chaldean

Your source was not published in any academic journal. Moreover, the etymology of the name comes from Orrhoi name of a nomadic Arab tribe. Britannica definitely is more reliable.Heja Helweda 22:42, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Source? Did eye skipped the 10 sources I provide that proved the Syriac heritage of the kingdom? Of course they all were published. Wake up. Chaldean 23:00, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Please do not remove sourced material. Your Britannica source does not indicate Arab identity of the kingdom. Your misinterpreting the source once again. Chaldean 23:05, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Did you read the Pliny's source? According to him, the inhabitants were ethnic Arabs.Heja Helweda 23:15, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

That is ONE source. I have given you tens of source contracting him. Are we going to change Bardaisan ethnicity out of nowhere? You say they might have spoke Syriac but they were still Arabs. This doesn't make any sense. You are an Arab if you use the Arabic language. Chaldean 23:17, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

What if one speaks Aramaic? Is he Aramaean or Assyrian?

Thats like asking if one speaks Farsi, is he a Farsian or Persian? Aramaic was and still to this day is the language of the Assyrian nation. Chaldean 23:22, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

That was a cute answer! I think its like asking if one speaks Swedish, is he a Swede or a German.

I am sorry that one source is more reliable than modern nationalist sources. That's like citing Turkish writers that claim Sumer was Turkic!!! Modern sources are acceptable only when they agree with the older ones not the other way around! Definitely Pliny lived close to that period and his knowledge about Osroene is more relaible than other theories by modern writers. Also notice that they did not speak Syriac as a mother tongue, it was used for religious purposes. Just like how north Europeans (like British) for many centuries used Latin but their native tongue was something else.Heja Helweda 22:01, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

they did not speak Syriac as a mother tongue - Cite it multiple times. it was used for religious purposes - what on earth are you talking about. Christianity is not like Islam. Chaldean 00:24, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I was talking about Christianity. I suggest to take a look at History of Christianity in Western Europe for a better understanding of the subject. Up to Renaissance, all European catholic nations used Latin for religious ceremonies, and Bible(New Testament) was in Latin/Greek, but after Martin Luther and beginning of Protestantism in early 16th century, Germans and British started to translate Bible into their native tongue. That was a very controversial move at the time and was not endorsed by the Vatican. So up to 16th century, Latin was used in northern Europe for religious prayers,etc. but it was not the mother tongue of Northern Europeans. So using a language for religion does not automatically mean that it is mother tongue.Heja Helweda 00:45, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

And this relates to Aramaic how :? Chaldean 03:18, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

The analogy is clear: Germans using Latin for religious stuff and Arabs using Aramaic.Heja Helweda 03:39, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Bad analogy. Are you insinuating that we are Arabs now or what? — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 21:30, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

In one word Osroene were Arabs who used Aramaic. Brusk u Trishka (talk) 10:29, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Okay. No sources. Sorry. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 12:46, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

All neutal sources back the point that Osroene was Arab. Brusk u Trishka (talk) 13:25, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I still see no sources. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 16:56, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Ethnic background

I have included both Arab and Assyrian in the first paragraph. In fact there is no ancient source about Assyrian character of Osroene. According to Pliny, the inhabitants were ethnic Arabs. So this must be mentioned in the beginning. Moreover the idea of Assyrian background is a modern theory by some contemporary scholars, and is not attested by ancient sources. I think this is fair compromise to include both views (ancient/modern).Heja Helweda 03:43, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

You have not presented sources. All you have done is made a lot of statements. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 21:29, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Then I'll add a neutality tag to the article. Brusk u Trishka (talk) 21:05, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

I added some references on establishment of Christianity in Osroene. Atabek (talk) 02:23, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I rearranged some text to remove duplicates, will work on it more this week. If there are any inputs, please, discuss them here so as to help make this article better. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 18:51, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Your "rearrangement" basically removed the mention of Armenia from the lead as well as the crucial role that Armenia played in Osroene's history. I have restored the previous text. Instead of making major changes, please discuss them here first.

There are 1000000 sources stating that Armenia was the first Christian state. 1-2 books stating otherwise cannot be given the same weight. Osroene may have had the first Christian king, but the Armenia was the first to make it its official religion. Please refrain from inaccurate edits, and please respect the first Christian nation.--TigranTheGreat (talk) 03:06, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

A nation can be defined in many ways, such as a people. Tourskin (talk) 07:40, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Tigran, there is no need for exaggerations or invented figures such as "1000000 sources" above. This article is about Osroene, which was the kingdom which adopted Christianity in 201 A.D. Several references confirm that, so what's your basis for removal of valid and strong references? To deny Syriac church that they were first Christians, when they were? Atabek (talk) 17:09, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Also, I would like to request that you provide information which denies that Osroene adopted Christianity by 201 A.D. If you're unable to produce the evidence, the edit with references must be restored, or administrative attention must be brought to their removal. Atabek (talk) 18:12, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Any one of the 1000000 sources worldwide that state that Armenia was the first nation to adopt Christianity automatically refutes the claim that Osroene adopted it before Armenia. The king of Osroene became Christian. That doesn't mean the kingdom itself become one.--TigranTheGreat (talk) 01:41, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes it does, the King is the soveriegn and decides the state religion. Tourskin (talk) 03:43, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

The 100,000 sources you speak of is meaningless. Having an army of incorrect articles does not mean one is right. There reason why you think there is so much support out there for Armenia is because no one has even heard of Osroene. Tourskin (talk) 03:44, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Tourskin, your full revert was not all assessed, while it being the first Christian state can be debated, the rest, like cutting the lead was a bad edit. First, the main section of the article being called History is senseless, it is a historical state of course it is about history. Atabek has unjustifiably cut the lead of most of the information contained there. Atabek's goal actually was to find a reason to remove Armenia from that same lead, and in the process removed information under the pretext of redundancy, which obviously is illogical as the lead is supposed to give an overall picture of the subject covered. Every lead can be under this pretext sliced or removed all together.

As for the first Christian state Armenia is the first Christian State and first Christian nation, while it could be debated that Osroene was the first Christian state. Osroene has no continuity, that's the distinction. Furthermore, the information of official adoptation is an opinion with not much substantiation, there is no documentation that Osroene had an official religion. An official implemented Christianity didn't really appear until the fourth century. And it did first in Armenia. But the concept of Christianity as official religion pretty much spread in the fourth century where many nations will officially declare being Christian. There is probably a good way to word this to make it less controversial, but Atabek's edit for the most part was bad. VartanM (talk) 05:51, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I stand corrected on all points then. Tourskin (talk) 06:27, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

No you don't stand corrected because VartanM is substantiating his POV by original research and only one source which stands against multiplicity of sources on that page. How can you dispute the dates, when Armenian church history starts in 301A.D. and Syriac church existed since 100s. How can Armenia be the "first Christian state", when Abgar IX, the king of Osroene, accepted Christianity by 200, while Gregory the Illuminator was born (!) in 257 A.D. and king Tiridates III of Armenia whom he converted ruled between 286 and 330A.D.? Atabek (talk) 15:09, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Added another reference that confirms even the predecessor of Abgar IX -- Abgar V, who was converted to Christianity by Addai, one of the 72 disciples. Atabek (talk) 15:34, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

The Abgar legend is not factual it is a legend. For exemple: "There is therefore no justification for postulating, on the basis of the Abgar legend, a Christian King Abgar, whether Abgar V or Abgar VIII the Great (177-212).." (pg 496) . Second just do a google book for Abgar legend. Note it is a legend. Also on Osroene, Atabek is putting non-scholarly sources without bringing the actual quotes and references. First thing that should be ascertained is the 1905 source. Note on pg 58. There is nothing about a Christian state, it talks about Osroene being under the Roman empire. The King who allegedly converted to Christianity. The article states: "One of its kings, Abgar Bar Manu, does seem to have been converted to Christianity" . Atabek's book is from 1905! And it says "Does seem", being uncertain. But later research as in the first book invalidates him. The other book Atabek brought to justify a Christian state:"All the Apostles of the Bible. Zondervan... " First of all, just any book can not be quoted in Misplaced Pages. For something such as this we can't use a book for a general audience. Also pg 260 is not available via google books. And the book seems to be a hagiographic story of saints rather than a criticial history book. This should place Atabek within the administrators radar.-- Ευπάτωρ 19:06, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

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