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Revision as of 19:30, 4 March 2008

Archive-1

Positive POV on Sahaja Yoga

Hi CFW, you seem to have archived your answer to my question before I could read it. But I looked at the history. You ask me to "GUESSSSS". Hmmm... the hissing of a snake, or is that the sizzling of your temper? My guess is that you have absolutely no exposure to the movement and have never made an honest attempt to learn anything about it except by doing searches on the Internet. Your posts reflect this anyway. Freelion (talk) 23:07, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Good, keep gusssing, Seek and Thou Shalt Find!! --talk-to-me!! (talk) 05:36, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

And don't forget to use your vibes for confirmation :-) --Simon D M (talk) 11:03, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Rick Ross Intro

Greetings, CFW, and thanks for revisiting your edits to the intro over at Rick Ross (consultant) (and for encouraging focus on content rather than contributors). Given your relatively short edit history, I am assuming you are new to Misplaced Pages, and want to honor you for stepping up and being bold. There is a general concern about WP:NPOV around a variety of "cult-related" subjects on Misplaced Pages, and I sometimes find it helpful before jumping into controversial articles to review the article history, such as by checking older versions:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Rick_Ross_%28consultant%29&oldid=3666343
• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Rick_Ross_%28consultant%29&oldid=11874867
• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Rick_Ross_%28consultant%29&oldid=34280671
• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Rick_Ross_%28consultant%29&oldid=80326898

The phrase "de-progammer" (like "cult") is a problematic one, which is why such paragraphs as the following have existed in the past.

He has been referred to in the media as a "cult deprogrammer" (Ortega, 1996), a "veteran cult watcher" (Padgett, 2003), a "self-styled cult buster" (Grove, 2004), as an "internationally known expert regarding destructive cults" (Bond, 2005), a "cult expert" (Cohen, 2005), and an ' alleged cult "expert" ' (Lewis 2003), and has been interviewed and quoted by the media in the United States and other countries in relation to his interest in cults.

Each of these labels has a slightly different rhetorical and emotional weight, which is why I prefer to keep things as unadorned as possible. One can objectively be considered an expert witness by one or more specific courts, but general terms such as "cult expert" are much more subjective, which is why I prefer to focus on unadorned descriptions and/or specific references. Does that make sense? On this particular article for these particular phrases, there are solid editorial reasons to avoid unnecessary adjectives.

Thanks for your participation in the talk page, and I'll look forward to seeing more of your edits! - Rorybowman (talk) 22:45, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the links.. most appreciated!! I feel, lead is closing down to perfectionism, barring few POV statements, once that is cleared, we can move on to other sections and clean the article from getting biased, achieving NPOV is next to impossible, everyone has a POV and feels that is NPOV, :) all that we can do is to present a counter statement for each biased statements, that will make every article, balanced, looking forward to work with you !! --talk-to-me! (talk) 10:52, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

WP:DRV

The page you refer: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Sahaj Marg was deleted by User:Can't sleep, clown will eat me, and not by me. Deletion reviews are to be placed at WP:DRV and not on my talk oage. Please stop adding spurious comments to my talk page, which are bordering on personal attacks and trolling ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:03, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

My objection is to this page talk page of the deleted article clearly indicates your previous involvement with the subject and as such, YOU under no condition should abuse your admin power's to delete article with which YOU are personally involved with. --talk-to-me! (talk) 17:11, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I realize I have nothing to do with this conversation, but Jossi deleted it as per Speedy Criteria G4, which is deletion due to the fact that it was previously deleted. It wasnt that he had anything personal with it, but rather it had been previously deleted, and was being deleted again. Same thing happens with articles which are recreated over and over and speedied each time. Queerbubbles | Leave me Some Love 17:15, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

If you notice the discussion Jossi is a well known cult promoter on wikipedia, except Don, all appear to be member of some or other cult, this deletion was done with sole intention to hide information, (i cannot see any other reason for deletion). For Jossi, even after declaring that he will not get involved with cult related article he deleted the page, even if it was under G4, as Jossi was personally involved with that article previously he should have posted a discussion, rather then deleting the article which he himself nominated for deletion once. --talk-to-me! (talk) 17:26, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

You are so well informed! A million successes and warm welcome to you! I had mistaken Jossi for a Scientologist before you pointed this out :) ClaudeReigns (talk) 17:33, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

From what I see, he was approached by another user who wanted him to take a look at the article once it had been recreated. She didnt know what to do with it, so he speedy deleted it as per the guidelines. He is an admin, and as such, has the ability to speedy delete things which have been recreated after a previous delete. He would have done the same if it had been about this or about a water company. If you ignore the fact that you call this page that of a cult's page, what he did was not a conflict of interest because it was a speedy delete due to the replication. Not anything else. Queerbubbles | Leave me Some Love 17:39, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Even if that was a case of water company, if he himself had nominated the article for deletion once, he should have posted the request on appropriate forum, if you notice the old discussion both user's the lady and Jossi, were hand in hand, then also, it was more personal action rather then community approach, we cannot deny off wiki communication between cult member's and as such, a person who is involved with any article must under no condition use admin power's to that article. there is a process for deletion WP:AFD if that was a recreation, then view of all opposing member's must also be taken into account, and no personal usage of admin power, a lady asking for deletion, and there you go... article is deleted. This is not the norms of wikipedia as far as i can understand. From lady's talk page, it is more then clear that she is also a cult promoter as Jossi is, hence view of two people, having exactly same motive (hide information from wikipedia) is not community view. --talk-to-me! (talk) 17:49, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Speedy Deletes are used for quick deletions of recreations. To have put it into AfD would have been ridiculous, and beaurocratic. It also would have probably been speedied and he would have been admonished for not taking the shortcut. AfDs are not used when the article has been deleted before. Please see WP:AfD as well as WP:Speedy to learn the difference between the two. The quick and dirty of it is this: The article had been deleted before. Then it had been created again... and he, as an admin, was informed about it and it was speedied. If the article had been about a water company, I doubt we would be having this converstaion. In the end, you have a personal beef with this admin, and are looking for anything to pin him to. This is very quickly becoming a trolling issue and not an admin overstepping his bounds issue. Queerbubbles | Leave me Some Love 17:56, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Queerbubbles, Why was he the only person informed about the subject ? there is a tag, (wp del) which i used mistakenly once, which is used for article's under speedy deletion, a user approaching an admin, who has declared that he will not use his admin power's for cult related article's, and there is no information for community to have a look, and ruzzz page is deleted !! this is a clear case violation of wiki norms, wp:del was the correct approach, deletion indicates something fishy. --talk-to-me! (talk) 18:07, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

The page had been deleted previously. Period. Full stop. He was implementing a guideline in his speedy deletion. If you want to take this to ArbCom go right head, and I will comment there as well. If you truly believe this so much, then take the next step. The back and forth is going no where... Queerbubbles | Leave me Some Love 18:14, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

You are asking me questions and i am responding ;), if needed i will take the next step, and hope you will be there as well. :) --talk-to-me! (talk) 18:17, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Not to be picky, but I asked nothing. I was merely commenting. I found this while recent changes partolling. Queerbubbles | Leave me Some Love 18:20, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

What's partolling? ClaudeReigns (talk) 18:25, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Recent Changes Patrolling is akin to vandalism patrolling. You click Recent Changes repeatedly until you find something fishy or that catches your interests. Its old school. Queerbubbles | Leave me Some Love 18:27, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Pa-TROLLING, I get it. And I get that you think this was fishy. So this was completely random? And you don't know Jossi? I just met CFW, honest. ClaudeReigns (talk) 18:36, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I understand your skeptecism... however you can see through my edit history and his edit history that never the two of us have met. You can also ask for a checkuser to see if I'm a puppet... but I'm not. Queerbubbles | Leave me Some Love 18:42, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

How do you request a checkuser? ClaudeReigns (talk) 18:44, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I dont know how to request one, but a checkuser looks at two (or many) IP addresses and performs analysis of edits and times online, as well as various other statistics which I'm not privvy to. They are used to confirm sockpuppets. Queerbubbles | Leave me Some Love 18:54, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Welcome to wikipedia, the "new" school --talk-to-me! (talk) 18:29, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

warning

Please do not attack other editors. If you continue, you will be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages. Specifically, calling editors "cult-promoters" or "cult members" like you did here is a slanderous form of personal attack. Renee (talk) 21:38, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Slander is spoken. Libel is written. If this is a legal issue, why doesn't Jossi just sue Cade Metz? And what is the deal with the mischaracterizations of CFW's arguments as anti-Indian? I think you should recuse yourself from this because of your close association with Jossi. ClaudeReigns (talk) 19:30, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Sahaj Marg and Shri Ram Chandra Mission

Hi Talk to me...

Thanks for the meil...

If you will start the page ("Sahaj Marg" or "Shri Ram Chandra Mission") up again, and leave me a message with the name of the page, I will participate.

There is still a court case in the Supreme Court of India pending re who owns the Sahaj Marg name and the "possessions" (Ashrams etc...). http://courtnic.nic.in/supremecourt/temp/ac%20661900p.txt The case is by the grandson of Babuji who is the one making all the claims of criminal activity (murder of his grandfather, and his father, and the take-over of this "small meditation group" by a businessman called Chari and his father... who is now deceased).

I got involved with Wiki, as my wife of 35 years joined this new "cult of a person" (Chari) and we are now seperated (2yrs ago) after her being in this group for one year. I just wanted other potential victims to know that this group, although once being a genuine "meditation group", and who although promising a path to GOD, is not above being ruthless and divisive as their own society records, newspaper articles and court records now show. There are allegation in court and newspaper articles in India, about other "crimes" in this group also (sexual abuse).

I kept the WIKI pages (Sahaj Marg and Shri Ram Chandra Mission) active for 2 yrs. Other admins helped out with the content. when Renee and Jossi got involved and the debate deteriorated to "erasing" the pages until the court case was resolved, I decided to not try and keep it going for a while to let things "calm down" until the case was resolved...There did not seem to be a concensus possible at that time and POV's were pushed from all sides.

There are other "admins" and "editors" who are more true WIKI-ans and believe in the philosophy of WIKI but these two are involved with such groups (cults and so called "NEW religions") themselves, so it is difficult for them to see the TRUTH. Their agenda seems to be to "erase" and "delete" from WIKI all information that exposes all cults so as to protect their own group. WIKI has been infiltrated at the "admin" level (Jossi) and it is difficult to combat it with such an unresolved "controversy" in Shri Ram Chandra Mission and in Sahaj Marg. For a while there were two Shri Ram Chandra Mission pages, one called "chennai" and one called "Shahjahanpur" and the followers of both were "vandalising" the other page.

Are you an "admin"?...How can you stop the "deletions" from Jossi from going on? Someone started a page on Shri Ram Chandra of Shahjahanpur a while back and Jossi also deleted that one also. Now the same happened with "Sahaj Marg India" according to an e-mail by Shashwat who was an editor on the original pages.

If you are still interested in starting a page on Sahaj Marg, tell me how to proceed. You start it and I will participate with all the info I have on the subject that should be WIKI (concensus and fair). If I inadvertently enter some POV, I am sure that someone will correct me...

I believe in WIKI...

Thanks for your involvement...

4d-Don... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4d-don (talk • contribs) 18:03, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks heavens I have someone with information, I am trying to re-write the page here, but given my one week experience with this cult i may not be able to write a complete article, may be you would like to participate in discussion here also --talk-to-me! (talk) 18:09, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

WP:IU

This is the first step in username review. Please review this. Others have noted your username is offensive and represents a POV. Would you be willing to change your username? Renee (talk) 19:13, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Would it be possible for you to focus on content and not the contributer ? --talk-to-me! (talk) 19:16, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi talk-to-me...

I will read your "re-write" attempt and get back to you...

I noticed that Renee is "threatening" you also... I will see what you wrote and give you my opinion tomorrow... Sun is shining, dog barking, have to go out for a walk in the forest and "talk with the ONE"...;-))

Keep the info NPOV so that we can get started...

4d-don --don (talk) 19:06, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Have a pleasant day ahead, looking forward to work with you :), ooh Renee, there are many like her.. Jossi is one of them --talk-to-me! (talk) 19:10, 4 March 2008 (UTC)