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Your version states "Finally, in the first half of the ], ], with a largely collectivised agriculture, exported more agricultural products than ] from an agricultural area little more than a quarter of the French ''(FAO production, 1986, FAO Trade vol. 40, 1986)''.". This is contradicted by FAO's own statistcal database . Remove or add this contradiction. ] 15:08, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
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==Accuracy disputes==
The following did not appear in version '''U'''. I thought we had better move on to accuracy disputes next anyway. ] 15:33, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Your version states "Finally, in the first half of the ], ], with a largely collectivised agriculture, exported more agricultural products than ] from an agricultural area little more than a quarter of the French ''(FAO production, 1986, FAO Trade vol. 40, 1986)''.". This is contradicted by FAO's own statistcal database . Remove or add this contradiction. ] 15:08, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Well, I've taken up the herculean task of cleaning up the article, giving it a better structure and making it NPOV. I have to say I'm pretty proud of my work. :) Go and have a look. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu15:22, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
Pretty good, but we have about 12 hours before a series of reverts and crys of "censorship of the worst kind" from you know who... I never realistically imagined it becoming so passable. Still, it could correct more flaws in Ultramarine's writing, such as more direct citations of authors such as Conquest, rather than nebulous references to "critics of communism." Vague passages lacking context like the following are still troubling: "Extensive historical research has documented large scale human rights violations that occurred in Communist states." Of course, one could just as easly write it following in (say) capitalism: "Extensive historical research has documented large scale human rights violations that occurred in capitalist societies." Instead, such a passage should cite the conclusions of specific authors, and how they pin the blame on communism. 172 | Talk16:00, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
I did my best to leave his anti-communist arguments virtually untouched, so as to prove that I am editing in good faith and want to reach a good quality, readable and NPOV article. Most of my heavy editing was done on the pro-communist arguments, which had been grossly misrepresented and dismissed. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu16:49, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
That's true. His writing can remain largely intact, but we can fill in the attributions within the text later on. 172 | Talk16:53, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
I've taken another look over it and corrected one obviously false statement. Human rights violations haven't occured in ALL Communist states ALL the time. But other than that, I've left the human rights objections unchanged and unattributed. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu17:00, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
At least not on the scale it implied; if one looked broadly enough, one could find human rights problems in any country at any time, including the U.S., which boasts the world's highest per capita prison population... Later on I'll take another look at the paragraph and turn in more into a summary of Conquest, Pipes, Rummel, et al. 172 | Talk17:03, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
172, you have violated Misplaced Pages policy by deleting The two-version template. Here is a link to my version Ultramarine06:21, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
Reversions of Mihnea Tudoreanu's fixes
Ultramarine, the issue is not the two-version template but your reversion of Mihnea's changes, which left the article much more readable, NPOV, and encyclopedic. 172 | Talk06:26, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
You have violated Misplaced Pages policy both by deleting the template and reverting which the template states should not be done without consensus on the talk page. Ultramarine06:30, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
If you explain why you reverted her hard work on this page, then you one would have to revert back to an old version to begin with. 172 | Talk06:33, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
I have incorporated many of the recent changes. In addition, I have added numerous references in the text and much new information, including much well-referenced critique now deleted. Ultramarine06:46, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
In order to resolve the dispute, each of us will have to explain his edits and his objections to the other person's version. In meaningful detail. Generalities like "I have added many useful things" are quite worthless. In this spirit, I will begin:
1. My edits were motivated by three reasons:
(a) Structure - I found the structure of your article to be lacking in many respects.
(b) Accuracy - You repeatedly misrepresented the communist position, for example by claiming that "some" communists believe the term "communist state" to be an oxymoron (when in fact all of them do), or by refusing to acknowledge that there are, in fact, communist objections to the "communist states" as well.
(c) NPOV - Some parts of your article - for example the ones about "Lenin's famine" or "useful idiots" were pure, unredeemable POV.
2. With that in mind, my edits can be classified as follows:
(a) Corrections of structure - "Were the Communist states communist?" was replaced by "Communist critique of Communist states", since that is what it refers to. Marx's predictions, which are part of theory (not practice), and which were done using Historical Materialism, were moved to the section on Historical Materialism. The accusation of pseudoscience, which is also targeted at Historical Materialism (since that is the only part of Marxism that claims the status of science) was also moved to the appropriate section.
(b) Corrections of accuracy - The introduction was expanded to mention that the two kinds of criticisms (against communist states and against theory) are distinct. A header was added in order to point the reader to Criticisms of socialism and explain the purpose of this article. The fact that "communist state" is an oxymoron was mentioned, and a link was provided to the appropriate discussion within the communist state article. The sections on Historical Materialism and the LTV were improved, since you obviously either do not know what communists believe or you are trying to misrepresent those beliefs on purpose.
(c) Corrections of POV - The section on "Lenin's Famine" was not only hopelessly POV (taking the staunch anti-communist side in a controversial issue), but also unjustified. The rest of the article makes general observations, without going into specifics. If you want to go into specifics, shouldn't you start with more important events, like the Great Purge, the Great Leap Forward, etc.? The section on "useful idiots" doesn't even criticize communism at all, it just says that a number of Western right-wingers think that communists are idiots. That would be better suited for an article on pejorative political terms. Finally, a number of your section headings were POV, such as "real-world failures". Failures according to whom? Supporters of communist states certainly don't think they were failures - on the contrary!
And one final note regarding POV: You have the bad habit of sandwiching the opposing POV between two statements that support your POV. In other words, you follow this model:
You seem to think things that you dislike are POV and should be removed. My facts are well-referenced and if you want to remove them, show that the references are incorrect. Regarding predictions, they are tested in the real-world. A Google search shows numerous claims of "Marxist science" which thus can be criticized . I incorporated a number of your changes that were improvements. Critique of Lenin is important, since many think that he was innocent and all evil started with Stalin.
Here are some of the things deleted by 172 when he reverted to your version.
During Russian Civil War, Lenin started "requisitioning" supplies from the peasantry for little or nothing in exchange. This led peasants to drastically reduce their crop production. In retaliation, Lenin ordered the seizure of the food peasants had grown for their own subsistence and their seed grain. The Cheka and the army began by shooting hostages, and ended by waging a second full-scale civil war against the peasantry.
Official Soviet reports admitted that fully 30 million Soviet citizens were in danger of death by starvation. The White forces shared little of the blame and actually had a food surplus. The Civil War was essentially over by the beginning of 1920, but Lenin continued his harsh exploitation of the peasantry for yet another year. The famine of 1921 was thus much less severe in 1920, because after the reconquest of the White territories, the Reds seized the Whites' grain reserves, although they primarily sent them to cities with less hunger but more political clout. Some relief organizations suspended help when it was revealed that the Soviet Union preferred to sell food abroad in order to get hard currency rather than feed its starving people. Estimates on the deaths from this famine are 3-10 million. Lenin was also responsible for starting the slave labor camp system and for 100000-500000 summary executions of "class enemies" Sources and estimates of the number killed:
Cuba is often cited as a successful example of by communists. However, Cuba was one of most developed nations in Latin America before Castro. Other Latin American nations have seen greater increases in literacy than Cuba. Calories per person has declined in Cuba while it has increased in most other Latin American nations. Cubans eat less cereals and meat than before Castro .
After 1965, life expectancy began to decline in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe while it continued to increase in Western Europe. This decline accelerated after the change to market economy in the states of the former Soviet Union but has now started to increase in the Baltic states. In Eastern Europe, life expectancy has increased significantly after the fall of Communism. The continued poor situation in Russia and Ukraine has been strongly linked to alcoholism.
(On that social sciences are not falsifiable.)
One response is that many social sciences like psychology, economics, and political science are increasingly being tested, for example by statistical methods.
Lenin did state the following:
"The so-called cultural element of Western Europe and America are incapable of comprehending the present state of affairs and the actual balance of forces; these elements must be regarded as deaf-mutes and treated accordingly....
"A revolution never develops along a direct line, by continuous expansion, but from a chain of outbursts and withdrawals, attacks and lulls, during which the revolutionary forces gain strength in preparation for their final victory....
"We must:
"(a) In order to placate the deaf-mutes, proclaim the fictional separation of our government ... from the Comintern, declaring this agency to be an independent political group. The deaf- mutes will believe it.
"(b) Express a desire for the immediate resumption of diplomatic relations with capitalist countries on the basis of complete non-interference in their internal affairs. Again, the deaf- mutes will believe it. They will even be delighted and fling wide-open their doors through which the emissaries of the Comintern and Party Intelligence agencies will quickly infiltrate into these countries disguised as our diplomatic, cultural, and trade representatives.
"Capitalists the world over and their governments will, in their desire to win Soviet market, shut their eyes to the above- mentioned activities and thus be turned into blind deaf-mutes. They will furnish credits, which will serve as a means of supporting the Communist parties in their countries, and, by supplying us, will rebuild our war industry, which is essential for our future attacks on our suppliers. In other words, they will be laboring to prepare their own suicide."(Stalin : The First In-depth Biography Based on Explosive New Documents from Russia's Secret Archives, 1997, Edvard Radzinsky)(The Lufkin News, King Featurers Syndicate, Inc., 31 July 1962, p. 4, as quoted by the Freeman Report, 30 Sept. 1973, p. 8). .
I am perfectly aware of the information that was removed. I have explained all my deletions and other edits in detail. Now it is time for you to explain yours. Please reply to all the points I have made above; if you do not, I will have no choice but to continue reverting. A Google search does indeed show many claims of "Marxist science" - from anti-communists. In this, as in so many cases, you insist on attacking a straw man. Marxists do of course claim that historical materialism is scientific, but not that all Marxism is a science. As for your Lenin quote, it does not appear in any of Lenin's works. It comes from a dubious source and you refuse to give any details surrounding it - such as the name of the secret document in which the quote is supposed to appear, the date of its publication, the subject of the secret document, or the method by which Edvard Radzinsky claims to have obtained it. And, as I have pointed out, your entire section on "useful idiots" is dedicated to citing Western authors who say that communists are idiots. This does not belong in criticisms of communism, but in an article on pejorative political terms. Finally, the reason you give for your bashing of Lenin clearly demonstrates that you fail to understand the concept of NPOV. It is not the purpose of Misplaced Pages to "correct" the "wrong views" that certain readers may hold. Our purpose is to inform the readers of all points of view, not preach one of them.
Your paragraph on social sciences displays a clear lack of understanding of the scientific method. Look into it.
Your two paragraphs on Cuba and Eastern Europe, however, are valid and I will attempt to integrate them in my version of the article. But not before we agree on a general structure, which is the first order of business. Leaving aside the content, do you have any objections to the structure of my version of the article? Yes or no?
And again, I am stressing the fact that I ask you to please reply to all my points above, which were specifically designed to initiate a dialogue. You would be well advised to make a similar list of the nature of your edits and the reasons behind them. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu18:06, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
I have answered your points. It is simply false to say that only anti-communists use "Marxist science", as anyone can see from the Google results. Again, show that the references are wrong, do not delete just because you dislike well referenced historical facts. Ultramarine05:37, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
This is ridiculous. You've answered nothing - not even my simple yes or no question regarding the structure of the article! Long before we get to your historical references, there are many other changes that I made and that you keep removing for no reason. Specifically (and here I quote myself):
"(a) Corrections of structure - "Were the Communist states communist?" was replaced by "Communist critique of Communist states", since that is what it refers to. Marx's predictions, which are part of theory (not practice), and which were done using Historical Materialism, were moved to the section on Historical Materialism. The accusation of pseudoscience, which is also targeted at Historical Materialism (since that is the only part of Marxism that claims the status of science) was also moved to the appropriate section.
(b) Corrections of accuracy - The introduction was expanded to mention that the two kinds of criticisms (against communist states and against theory) are distinct. A header was added in order to point the reader to Criticisms of socialism and explain the purpose of this article. The fact that "communist state" is an oxymoron was mentioned, and a link was provided to the appropriate discussion within the communist state article. The sections on Historical Materialism and the LTV were improved, since you obviously either do not know what communists believe or you are trying to misrepresent those beliefs on purpose.
(c) Corrections of POV - The section on "useful idiots" doesn't even criticize communism at all, it just says that a number of Western right-wingers think that communists are idiots. That would be better suited for an article on pejorative political terms. Finally, a number of your section headings were POV, such as "real-world failures". Failures according to whom? Supporters of communist states certainly don't think they were failures - on the contrary!
And one final note regarding POV: You have the bad habit of sandwiching the opposing POV between two statements that support your POV. In other words, you follow this model:
# Anti-communists say X.
# Communists say Y.
# But anti-communists reply with Z.
This is highly inappropriate, not to mention making it difficult for our readers to follow the article."
As you can plainly see, none of the above has anything to do with your historical references. As for "Marxist science", please check the Encyclopedia of Marxism. I see no mention of "Marxist science", not any mention in the Marxism entry that Marxism as a whole is a science. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu07:05, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
Again, anyone can see from Google that many Marxists use the term "Marxist science". Again, I incorporated the changes to LTV, as you could have seen if you read my text. A critique against Marxist theory should certainly include how it is used in academia. Again, predictions are tested in the real world and thus fall under the real-world section. You are arguing that the examples given were not failures? Ultramarine07:53, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I could easily argue that the examples given were not failures. Being Romanian, I can argue from personal experience that capitalism has been much more of a failure than "communism". But my opinion is irrelevant, of course - just like yours. If only you understood that, we wouldn't be having this conversation. The point is that the term "failure" is inherently subjective, and thus POV. Regarding Marxist science, it is true that Marxists believe part of Marxism to be a science, but not all of it. I keep trying to explain that. Pejorative terms like "useful idiot" do not represent a critique. Certainly not a critique of communism. Saying "communism is bad because some communists are idiots" is a logical fallacy (ad hominem), even if its two assertions (that communism is bad and that some communists are idiots) are true when taken separately. Plus, your Lenin quote (which is of dubious origin) says that capitalists, not communists, are "idiots". Finally, as a matter of structure, notice that my version of the article contains two main sections entitled "20th century Communist states" and "Marxism and communist theory", respectively. Marx's predictions are certainly not part of the discussion regarding 20th century Communist states. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu08:45, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
Actually, all I did was remove the paragraphs you quoted from the article, since, as I explained, "I am perfectly aware of the information that was removed ". I didn't know you considered it so important to have them listed here. I apologise. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu18:24, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
Violation of Misplaced Pages policy
Mihnea Tudoreanu, you have violated Misplaced Pages policy by reverting my version which was the first to use the "Two-version" tag. It states that there should be a consensus on the talk page first. You have also violated policy by removing the template. Ultramarine07:15, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
And you have violated wikipedia policy by refusing to even pretend to discuss our dispute on the Talk page. My reverting to an earlier version than my latest one was an obvious mistake (notice I had just added the "Two-version" tag right before your most recent reverts). As you can see, when I make a mistake, I fix it in 10 minutes - which is far more than can be said for you. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu07:21, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
I have shown numerous examples of well-referenced historical facts that you have deleted and answered your other claims. Ultramarine07:29, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
First you entirely dismissed, then you barely acknowledged my arguments in a 3-line paragraph. As for your "numerous examples", last time I checked there were only two short paragraphs of them, and I had agreed to start discussing and including them as soon as we reached consensus on the more general issues with the article. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu09:02, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
This is incorrect since my arguments are spread over several paragraphs in different edits. However, I have now incorporated several of your points in my version, see below. Hopefully we can now together in similar good faith include the well-referenced historical facts that are in my version but not in yours. Ultramarine13:16, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
I have already incorporated many of your points in my previous versions. I have now further incorporated some other points in a new version . Thus, I hope we can now together incorporate the many well-established historical facts that are in my version but not in yours. Ultramarine10:03, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
I have added one argument against my own position. Hopefully this will another sign of good faith.
"Some adherents to the Marxian doctrine of Historical Materialism argue that true communism can only develop as a response to the contradictions of bourgeois capitalism; therefore, the failure of those experiments in communism to date can be attributed to the fact they did not emerge in this manner. In short, some Marxists argue that, in order for a successful socialist revolution to occur, capitalism must first dominate the globe. The Soviet Union is a case in point - Tsarist Russia was quasi-feudal, not capitalist, and was overthrown by a small cadre rather than by a mass revolution. So it is argued by some Marxists that the failure of Soviet socialism to sustain itself is actually an affirmation of Historical Materialism." Ultramarine13:03, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
Thank you. This is encouraging news, and an indication that we may at last be making some progress. Your sign of good faith is very well received, and, as I have stated before, I am more than willing to incorporate the historical facts that are present in your version and not mine. As a source of references for various historical events, I would strongly suggest relying on the Historical Atlas of the 20th century, because it (a) compiles information from many different sources, and (b) it is non-ideological (unlike, say, the Museum of Communism, which is openly libertarian and has an axe to grind). -- Mihnea Tudoreanu10:28, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
On another note, once we agree on which version to start working with (see below), I propose the following method of editing: We begin with the least controversial issues and work our way up to the most controversial. Also, it is useful to discuss sections or even paragraphs one at a time, so as to avoid "blind reverts" (one attempts to edit or revert something, but, since he's not looking at the rest of the article, ends up reverting an innocent paragraph at the same time). -- Mihnea Tudoreanu10:46, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Two Versions: a method of merger
There are two versions of this page: one I will call U; the other M.
I propose the following plan:
the editors on this page see if there is a consensus for one of the alternatives; choose M as a working basis or choose U as a working basis. If there is, the dissentients be asked to state what they would merge into the consensus version, and the consensus be as generous as possible in admitting these things. I would be happy, for example, if M is the consensus, to admit the rather elegant good-faith paragraph above. On the other hand, if there is a consensus against any item, it should be dropped. At that point the templates may be able to go too.
Opinions in the following straw-poll should be brief and civil. I have tried to set an example. Septentrionalis
Straw Poll
Chooose M as a working basis
Because it contains so much neutral stuff (like the last sentence of M's intro, or the chronology of Socialist Realism), that I would be adding back in anyway. Septentrionalis23:04, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
Because M was actually based on U. After all, M was an attempt to radically improve U and make it NPOV. I do not think we should roll back the clock. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu10:42, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Once we agree on the version to use as our working basis, we will discuss here the first section of the article. Watch this space. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu10:52, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
The facts
I think we should discuss the actual facts instead of declaring one version to be a "working basis". What are the objections to the referenced data presented in my version? I will remove the templates claiming factual inaccuracy and original research unless specific counter-examples are given. Ultramarine12:13, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
I endorsed M largely because it contains almost all of U. What else would you like to include? Please list here.
We're not so much opposed to what you present as we are opposed to how you present it, Ultramarine. Please list here the facts you want to add to my version (a bulleted list would suffice) and I will go and add them. If one fact is controversial, we can discuss it. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu14:57, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
List of proposed changes
We can begin with this, lets take them one at a time. State if you agree or explain why it it inaccurate.
Pollution
Also pointed out is the environmental disasters. One is the gradual disappearance of the Aral Sea and the Caspian Sea because of the diversion of the rivers that fed them. Another the pollution of the Black Sea, the Baltic Sea, and the unique freshwater environment of Lake Baikal. Many of the rivers were polluted; several were virtually ecologically dead. In 1988 only 20% of the sewage was treated properly. Established health standards for air pollution was exceeded by ten times or more in 103 cities in the Soviet Union in 1988. The air pollution problem was even more severe in Eastern Europe. It caused lung cancer, forest die-back, and damage to buildings and cultural heritages. According to official sources, 58 percent of total agricultural land of the former Soviet Union was affected by salinization, erosion, acidity, or waterlogging. Nuclear waste was dumped in the Sea of Japan, the Arctic Ocean, and in locations in the Far East. It was revealed in 1992 that in the city of Moscow there were 636 radioactive toxic waste sites and 1,500 in St. Petersburg. . Ultramarine15:00, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Take a look here: . I've added your paragraph in a slightly modified and NPOV-ed form. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 15:19, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Basically, I have removed the "many rivers were polluted" part, since that is generic and could be true of any industrialized country, and added a possible communist counter-argument. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu15:21, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
You have removed "One is the gradual disappearance of the Aral Sea and the Caspian Sea because of the diversion of the rivers that fed them." and "Many of the rivers were polluted; several were virtually ecologically dead" You claim that the pollution continued similarly after the fall of communism. Give source. You also claim that the rivers argument is invalid because it could also be true in the West. Please do not guess; give source stating that this is true. Ultramarine15:28, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Look again; the gradual dissapearence of the Aral Sea was already mentioned. Regarding the continued pollution, I don't have to give a source - I live in a former communist country. I will look for sources if you insist (since it should be easy to find some), but I'd appreciate it if you did not turn this article into a swiss cheese of external links. Finally, are you implying that river pollution doesn't happen in the West?
Caspian sea was excluded. You do have to give a source, your particular experience says nothing about the whole of Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union. Some pollution has happened in the West but not so that the rivers are dead. Ultramarine15:42, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
As I expected, finding sources was easy: . The years of neglect after the fall of the Soviet Union have made many ecological problems worse. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu16:01, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
And capitalist Romania's record in river pollution is worse than dismal. Just 5 years ago, a massive cyanide spill caused by a private mining company in Romania ended up killing all life in the Tisza river and massively polluting the Danube: -- Mihnea Tudoreanu16:11, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Finally, I was not aware that the Caspian sea was in any danger of "dissapearing" - it's still the world's largest inland body of water, is it not? -- Mihnea Tudoreanu16:17, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
One of your sources is ten years old and says nothing about the situation today, the others mention some specific problems and not the general situation. However, we can certainly add that problems has continued in some countries, but has improved greatly in some, like Poland. Regarding the Caspian Sea, it is 15 years since the fall of Communism, is it not? Ultramarine16:28, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Let us complete the merger befor arguing over points of detail. That's what {{dubious}} tags: are for. The present text says: "The most cited example is the disappearance of the Aral Sea in today's Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan, which is believed to have been caused by the diversion of the waters of its two affluent rivers for cotton production." I am going to add "The Caspian sea has also been diminishing." If either of you disagrees with that sentence, put on a dubious tag and we can look up area statistics later. Septentrionalis17:28, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
As for "Many of the rivers were polluted; several were virtually ecologically dead":the first clause is obvious from what has been said, the second a classic instance of weasel wording. (And has Ultramarine considered Lake Erie?} If it is included, I will not revert it, but I will dispute it. In any case, we cannot include all the enviromental problems of the Soviet Union; that's another article. Septentrionalis17:28, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
I will give some specific instances in the next version. And paragraph about some the many and severe environmental problems i hardly to much. Ultramarine19:21, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Please continue previous good factual discussion. There is certainly no agreement on any non-existing Misplaced Pages policy regarding "working basis". Ultramarine17:41, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
There is no Misplaced Pages rule about 2/3 majority in cases like this, there should be consensus. If you try to do any "merger", I will ask for protection of this page, using my version. Ultramarine19:02, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
You have a real talent for grabbing defeat out of the jaws of victory. We have all agreed that 90% of your paragraph on pollution, which used to be consistently reverted, should stay permanently in the article. To get the same result on other paragraphs, you only need to ask. I repeat, what else would you like to have included? Septentrionalis
As for "winning" an edit war by requesting tactical page protection: I suggest you readMisplaced Pages:This page is protected first. 19:26, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
I would also like to add that lack of consensus is not grounds for pushing your minority view on everyone else. If we fail to resolve any dispute on one of these paragraphs, we will put up a public poll - and I get the nagging feeling that the result will be overwhelmingly against you. Notice, for example, that there is not a single person who supports you on the RfC. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu21:42, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Your version still does not include that Poland has seen an improvement in the environmental situation after the fall of Communism. Please correct. Ultramarine12:06, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
Your version is POV since it does not mention the improvements in many Eastern Europe nations. Nor does it mention the improvements in the some of the FSU states, like the Baltic states . Please correct. Ultramarine19:35, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
Using the same logic, statements about pollution in the states of the FSU should be eliminated. I think not, both should be presented. Ultramarine19:53, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
I have altered Mihnea's most to many. I believe this to be the case. I believe it will be the one-sentence summary of the article on Pollution in Eastern Europe; and that no more of that article belongs here. Both sides of that debate should be presented in the article on that subject. Here it is a digression on a borderline sentence. Septentrionalis22:03, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
You version still does not mention the environmental improvement in many Eastern European nations and the Baltic states. Please correct that this violation of NPOV. Ultramarine00:52, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
Nor does it mention, for example, that (as one of the articles Ultramarine provides asserts) that the Polish housing market is still working badly, so this is an improvement for those well-connected enough to have houses in the cities, just as under Communism. These things are outside the scope of this article; see Misplaced Pages:Stay on topic. But I'm willing to make a deal. If Ultramarine can find someone who says: "Communism is dreadful because air pollution in Cracow has improved since 1994", I'll put something in. Septentrionalis14:19, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Life expectancy
Here is another paragraph:
After 1965, life expectancy began to plateau or even decreased, especially for males, in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe while it continued to increase in Western Europe. This very large divergence between two parts of Europe went on during three decades leading to a profound gap in the mid 90s. The decline in life expectancy accelerated after the change to market economy in the states of the former Soviet Union but has now started to increase in the Baltic states. In Eastern Europe, life expectancy has increased significantly after the fall of Communism. The continued poor situation in Russia and Ukraine has been strongly linked to alcoholism. Ultramarine19:34, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Such a paragraph should be included.
The phrase started to increase in the Baltic states. exaggerates your source, who, quite plausibly, thinks the recent variation hopeful, but not yet signficant. The last sentence is unsupported by these sources, which speak of heart disease and violence as primary causes. I have seen newspaper articles speculating this, but they are not statisticians.
Mihnea will be perfectly justified in commenting that this proves as much about post-Soviet capitalism in the Independent States as anything else. Septentrionalis19:59, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
This is supported "On an individual level, alcohol consumption is strongly implicated in being at least partially responsible for many of these trends." Ultramarine20:19, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
In other words "maybe, we think, perhaps alcohol consumption could be a factor". That's idle speculation. As you so often insist, we should only mention the facts. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu21:42, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
The claim that "In Eastern Europe, life expectancy has increased significantly after the fall of Communism." is patently false. I present the case of Romania, and cite the CIA World Factbook as a reference:
1990
Life expectancy at birth: 69 years male, 75 years female
2004
Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 71.12 years
male: 67.63 years
female: 74.82 years (2004 est.)
Statistics on life expectancy are available for all East European countries; I will go see what their experience has been. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu23:39, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Look at this . However, we can certainly change to in "In many Eastern Europe nations, life expectancy has increased significantly after the fall of Communism." Ultramarine09:57, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
Here's my proposed paragraph:
Demographic studies have concluded that, after 1965, life expectancy stayed constant, or even declined, especially for males, in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe while it continued to increase in Western Europe. This divergence between two parts of Europe went on during three decades leading to a profound gap in the mid 90s. The decline in life expectancy accelerated after the change to market economy in 12 of the 15 former Soviet republics, including Russia. Only in the three Baltic republics it may have started to increase. In Eastern Europe, after 1990, the decline continued most notably in Romania, but life expectancy eventually began to increase in many of the other countries in the region. All these developments are significant for the analysis of post-Soviet capitalism, especially the economy of Russia, as well as the policies of the Communist states.
What is your source for "12 of the 15"? The study only looks at Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Russia and Ukraine of the FSU states. 2/5. Ultramarine14:53, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
Reading the study, I see Mihnea has been too generous. Life expectancy was constant in Western Europe until 1970, and continued to increase for females even in Eastern Europe, even if more slowly, after 1970. Septentrionalis17:09, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
Your version violates NPOV since it does not mention the improvements in many Eastern European nations. Please correct. Ultramarine19:37, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
Some communist supporters argue that Lenin was innocent of the large scale human right violations associated with Stalin. However, during Russian Civil War, Lenin started "requisitioning" supplies from the peasantry for little or nothing in exchange. This led peasants to drastically reduce their crop production. In retaliation, Lenin ordered the seizure of the food peasants had grown for their own subsistence and their seed grain. The Cheka and the army began by shooting hostages, and ended by waging a second full-scale civil war against the peasantry.
Official Soviet reports admitted that fully 30 million Soviet citizens were in danger of death by starvation. The White forces shared little of the blame and actually had a food surplus. The Civil War was essentially over by the beginning of 1920, but Lenin continued his harsh exploitation of the peasantry for yet another year. The famine of 1921 was thus much less severe in 1920, because after the reconquest of the White territories, the Reds seized the Whites' grain reserves, although they primarily sent them to cities with less hunger but more political clout. Some relief organizations suspended help when it was revealed that the Soviet Union preferred to sell food abroad in order to get hard currency rather than feed its starving people. Estimates on the deaths from this famine are 3-10 million. Lenin was also responsible for starting the slave labor camp system and for 100000-500000 summary executions of "class enemies" Estimates of the number killed: Sources: See reference list below
We can discuss the picture, although for example the Holocaust has similar pictures. Regarding the prose, you have to give specific criticisms. Ultramarine20:40, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Death in an organized camp is not the same as death by starvation. If someone dies in a concentration camp set up by some regime, there is no doubt that his/her death is the regime's fault. If, on the other hand, someone dies during a civil war as the result of a controversial natural catastrophe whose death toll may or may not have been augumented by the policies of the regime... You see the point. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu21:42, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Since Mihnea is willing to discuss details, I will do so. However, since we already have the picture up above, I ask consent to delete it here; this post will be more readable. Septentrionalis
The prose is advocacy: high-flown, vague, rhetorical, and urging the evils of Communism. This is violation of a core Misplaced Pages policy: Articles without bias describe debates fairly rather than advocating any side of the debate and the rest of the policy page. Consider, say, a comparable bar about Magadan. It might be perfectly accurate, I might personally absolutely agree with it and be persuaded by it; I would still believe it utterly inappropriate for Misplaced Pages.
About the "Famine of 1921", I have doubts also.
I have no objections to a mention of famine in 1921, or properly sourced, of Lenin's reponsibility for it.
Famines are not uncommon the year after wars. IIRC 1816 had a famine and 1946 escaped one only through intensive American shipments. The previous year's harvest will have been bad; so there will be no reserve. The economy will still be disrupted, and the men and ploughshare required for sowing will be out of place.
The logic seems to be:
The Red Army had no food
The White armies had plenty of food.
Therefore the Red Army oppressed the peasants.
This effort at proof is itself persuasion, and improper; but it is also poor reasoning: Where did the White armies get their food? By oppressing the peasants, of course.
What are the 100,000-500,000 at the end? (Large error bar, that.) Total executions 1918-1924? Total executions, 1921? Personally ordered by Lenin, either period? This vagueness is another reason why polemic is contrary to policy.
Some communist supporters argue that Lenin was innocent of the large scale human right violations associated with Stalin. However, during Russian Civil War, Lenin started "requisitioning" supplies from the peasantry for little or nothing in exchange. This led peasants to drastically reduce their crop production. In retaliation, Lenin ordered the seizure of the food peasants had grown for their own subsistence and their seed grain. The Cheka and the army began by shooting hostages, and ended by waging a second full-scale civil war against the peasantry.
Official Soviet reports admitted that fully 30 million Soviet citizens were in danger of death by starvation. At the same time, the areas under White control had built up a food surplus. The famine of 1921 was much less severe in 1920, because after the reconquest of the White territories, the Reds seized the Whites' grain reserves, although they primarily sent them to cities with less hunger but more political clout. Some relief organizations suspended help when it was revealed that the Soviet Union preferred to sell food abroad in order to get hard currency rather than feed its starving people. Estimates on the deaths from this famine are 3-10 million. Lenin started the slave labor camp system and 100000-500000 summary executions of "class enemies" occured during his regime . Estimates of the number killed: . See also references below.
Pure POV and unacceptable. You do not state the facts, you assign blame. Some of your statements are clearly false or at least badly written, for example talking about the Soviet Union in 1921 (that's 3 years before the Soviet Union was actually formed), while others are absurd, for example "The Cheka and the army began by shooting hostages, and ended by waging a second full-scale civil war against the peasantry". I'm curious, how exactly was the Red Army able to win a war against the White movement AND the British and French intervention forces AND its own peasantry? Were they supermen? The picture is POV and unacceptable for reasons outlined above, and I call into question your reasons for concentrating on this particular controversial famine rather than, say, the much better documented one of 1929-1931. I have accepted to include many of your paragraphs into my version. This one, however, will have to go. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu14:08, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
Remains advocacy. unacceptable in this form. Please read WP:NPOV.
Misplaced Pages is not a letters-to-the-editor column; and if something would work well there, it is inappropriate to WP. A polemic can be made up of facts and still be a polemic. I will add a sentence about War communism, and about Conquest's estimates for Lenin (it is a criticism, after all). Septentrionalis
The implication of Ultramarine's rant is that Lenin spent 1921 ordering his Bolsheviks to oppress the peasantry, without even the excuse of a war. That single sentence would be worth including, if only it were true. But the New economic policy was decreed March 21, 1921.
I believe my remarks about famine above are true, but are a vera causa for 1922. The famine of 1921 was largely due to shortage in the harvest of fall 1920, which was only to be expected; it was a year of war, and Russian agriculture had been in disarray since 1915. If the famine was coming anyway, it was not Lenin's fault. He made different, and in my opinion, more people die, but that is not responsibility for the famine. Septentrionalis16:37, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
Since you absolutely refuse to read the more important references by scholars, maybe some of these online links will convince you.
Your third reference does convince me of two things: the text you propose to include is a copyright violation; and the attribution to Robert Conquest may well be wrong. (I am, btw, perfectly willing to assert Lenin's count as a fact, provided Mihnea agrees that hundreds of thousands of deaths are a consensus figure.) Septentrionalis23:00, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
You are correct that there was a mistake, it was not Conquest's book I referred to but . I will correct that. Regarding copyright, the text is now quite different than the source, contains some other content, like on relief organizations, and what resemblance there may be falls under fair use. Note that the picture is in the public domain. Ultramarine01:20, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
Please list them here, or insert them yourself. Some of them really don't belong in the article. For example, I intentionally omitted the second reference under environment, above, as redundant; and the amazon link to Robert Conquest is unencyclopedic. See Misplaced Pages:ISBN for the proper technique.Septentrionalis17:29, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
Actually, that's very amateurish and quite unencyclopedic. Is there anything on that website that can't be found at Rummel's, or in the Black Book of Communism? -- Mihnea Tudoreanu14:50, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
We have four Rummel references already, one of which is on-line and links to these. Eight is ridiculous. I have no objection to changing which ones we include, if Ultramarine prefers. Septentrionalis
Your version excludes:
"Thus, as a defense of communism, it is claimed that so-called "Communist states" are unrelated (or only distantly related) to an ideal communist society. Therefore, it is argued, the failings of these states should not be taken as failings of communism per se. Critics of communism find fault with this reasoning, noting that this argument cannot be falsified and is therefore not scientific. Were it valid, they argue, it could similarly be applied to capitalism, fascism or other ideologies." Ultramarine12:05, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
The argument does not make sense. What is an "ideal capitalist society"? How about an "ideal fascist society"? There is no agreement among capitalists on how an ideal capitalist society would look like - or even if such a thing exists. In the case of fascism, those who created the theory (Mussolini and Hitler) were the same people who implemented the theory in practice - thus it is very hard to argue that the practice does not correspond to the theory. This is not the case with communism, where those who implemented the theory in practice (Lenin, etc.) weren't even born when the theory was written (by Marx). -- Mihnea Tudoreanu13:29, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
Are you arguing that all communists agree on the ideal communist society? Using the same defense strategy, I could argue that no society has ever been anarcho-capitalist, and thus that there has never been an ideal capitalist society. And that every problem in so called "capitalist states" can be explained by this. Ultramarine19:49, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
First of all, no communist claims that every problem in the so-called "communist states" is due to the fact that those states did not follow some perfect communist ideal. Rather, the argument goes that those states disregarded some of the most basic principles of communism - like a capitalist state banning the market, for example. Furthermore, capitalism, unlike communism, has more than one ideology to uphold it. All communists base their ideas more or less accurately on the works of Marx, Engels and Lenin. Capitalists, on the other hand, may be liberals, conservatives, libertarians... Capitalists are not united by a single ideology. Supporters of anarcho-capitalism may argue that every problem of capitalism today could be solved by their ideal system (and they often do make this claim), but they do not have a monopoly on the notion of "capitalism" in the same way that Marxists have a monopoly on the notion of "communism". -- Mihnea Tudoreanu10:58, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
If Ultramarine can find an example of this criticism, I am perfectly willing to include a summary of what it actually says. But I will be surprised to see one; the argument is very weak. There is consensus among Communists that a "communist" society (in the strict sense of the word) would be desirable; there is no such consensus among capitalists. Many capitalists, and even some Libertarians, would oppose anarcho-capitalism, for example. Septentrionalis16:23, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
Cuba
Your version excludes this:
Cuba is often cited as a successful example of by communists. However, Cuba was one of most developed nations in Latin America before Castro. Other Latin American nations have seen greater increases in literacy than Cuba. Calories per person has declined in Cuba while it has increased in most other Latin American nations. Cubans eat less cereals and meat than before Castro . Ultramarine10:04, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
This is part of the comparison controversy (comparing communist states with capitalist countries) and will be incorporated in a larger discussion of that controversy. The last time we handled this subject it resulted in the utter mess over at The Black Book of Communism, so this time we'll have to be more organized. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu14:15, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
"Comparison controversy" is just an informal title I use for the practice (on both sides of the communism vs. capitalism argument) to compare various communist states with various capitalist ones and draw conclusions from this comparison. I don't think anyone else uses the term, and there are certainly no books written on it, so it doesn't deserve its own article. I strongly believe we should keep all criticisms of communism in one place - because if there's something we omit here, you can bet someone will later come along, ignore the link to the article where the matter is discussed, and ask why we don't present it here. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu18:20, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
Now, going back to the comparison controversy, it goes something like this: Anti-communists compare X with Y, and point out that the capitalist country was better off. Communists point out flaws (such as other factors that could have influenced prosperity besides the economic system) and come up with a comparison between Z and W. Anti-communists retaliate with another comparison of their own, and so on ad nauseaum until the whole discussion degenerates into an argument over which countries are more capitalist than others. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu18:20, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
Your version excludes:
"One response is that many social sciences like psychology, economics, and political science are increasingly being tested, for example by statistical methods." Ultramarine10:10, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
That is just the point. If it cannot be tested, it is a pseudoscience, unlike for example those fields of economics and political science that can be tested. Please correct your text. Ultramarine22:13, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
Again, the real test for any science is the controlled, repeatable and falsifiable experiment, not statistics. Set up a controlled, repeatable and falsifiable experiment in political science or economics, and I'll be impressed. I can add your point about statistics if you really insist, but you'll have to reformulate it so it doesn't imply that statistics can determine whether a hypothesis is true. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu14:32, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Human rights
Your version excludes:
"to have continued to occur in all communist states during their existence." For example, no Free speech.
If you're talking about free speech, this will be included in the free speech section. However, your version includes this statement in the section on mass murder, which makes it false. Mass murder was concentrated in specific countries at specific times. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu13:32, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
Your version excludes:
"However, Marx never insisted on this and he rejected the concept of liberal democracy. That all the Communist states became and remained totalitarian as long as the Communists remained in power can be seen as an argument against communism." Ultramarine10:53, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
Marx (and Lenin, and all the other communists) always insisted that democracy was a central part of their principles. They rejected liberal ("bourgeois") democracy, of course, but embraced the notion of democracy itself. As my version points out, some communist states even adopted the name of "Democratic Republics". -- Mihnea Tudoreanu13:46, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
You two appear to be using two different definitions of the word "liberal", one associated with 'civil society', the other with 'bourgeois'. This is one reason to avoid the phrase, as ambiguous. Septentrionalis16:20, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
He never explicitly required much at all for his dictatorship of the proletariat - he said very little about it (because he thought that planning the future constituted utopian socialism). I will gladly add the fact that he rejected liberal democracy and supported direct democracy - under which section would you like me to add it? -- Mihnea Tudoreanu10:13, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
I do not think it matter exactly where. Please also include the phrase "dictatorship of the proletariat" which many critques have used. And also the point "That all the Communist states became and remained totalitarian as long as the Communists remained in power can be seen as an argument against communism." Ultramarine22:16, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
There is a problem with that argument, however. As the Historical Atlas of the 20th Century points out , no democracy older than 3 years ever became a Communist state. The majority of Communist states replaced other dictatorships, not democracies. The only exceptions are to be found in Eastern Europe after WW2, and even there, the interlude of democracy between wartime dictatorships and post-war Communist states was short (with the 3 year maximum being reached in Czechoslovakia, 1945-1948). Thus, you can hardly blame the communists for creating dictatorships. At most, they just maintained them. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu14:16, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Energy efficiency
Your version excludes:
The Communist states used their energy very inefficiently, getting much less economic growth from the same amount of energy than the Western nations and the Third World.
I find the graph almost unreadable (and it borders on being a crystal ball); the text is strikingly incomplete. A neutral version would add something like:
The Soviet Union was an exporter of oil; China has vast supplies of coal. There was no reason for them to avoid energy-intensive development.
Your version excludes:
But many of the Communist states were often critical of Stalin and tried many variants of communism beside Stalinism, with little success. Those variants that were more successful resembled capitalism, like Lenin's New Economic Policy. Ultramarine10:58, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
Pure POV. Firstly, those states who were critical of Stalin were the Soviet Union and its allies after 1953. They might have criticized Stalinism, but, in practice, they kept the same government structures that Stalin had created. Secondly, who are you to say they had "little success"? According to them, they were very successful - because the Soviet Union became the world's second largest economy, for example. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu13:39, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
Tito was a loyal Stalinist until Stalin tried to bring Yugoslavia under his control. Mao likewise admired Stalin and Maoism is built upon Stalinism (remember that one of the major issues in the Sino-Soviet split was that the USSR repudiated Stalin while China did not). Juche was also built upon Stalinism, and many call North Korea "Stalinist" today. You may have a point about the Khmer Rouge, but, according to all the other communists, they were just a lunatic fringe group (which is saying something!). Glasnost and Perestroika were clearly not Stalinist, but they happened in the Soviet Union and therefore fit with what I said above ("those states who were critical of Stalin were the Soviet Union and its allies after 1953"). -- Mihnea Tudoreanu10:08, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
I propose the following compromise:
Many Marxists and some Marxist-Leninists argue that most Communist states did not actually adhere to Marxism-Leninism but rather to a perversion heavily influenced by Stalinism. On the other hand, many of the the Communist states were critical of Stalin, especially after his death. They tried many different political and economical systems during their existence. Examples include War communism, the New Economic Policy, Stalinism, Titoism, Juche, Perestroika, and Glasnost. Maoism is a broad concept that includes episodes such as the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution, and the Red Khmers. However, many Marxists argue that the Communist states continued to use many of Stalin institutions and thus continued to be Stalinist. Ultramarine23:04, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
It is quite easy to read this paragraph as saying that that Stalinism (or NEP or Juche...) was one of the systems tried by Communist states critical of Stalin. It is much harder to see what it is supposed to mean. What does Ultramarine mean? Septentrionalis23:39, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
Clearly, neither War Communism nor the NEP were instituted by Communist states "critical of Stalin", because Stalin hadn't even risen to power yet. Tito, as I pointed out above, only criticized Stalin's policy towards Eastern Europe, not his style of governing. North Korea has never criticized Stalin, and neither has Mao. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu14:22, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Your version excludes:
"However, Marx’s dream of a socialist revolution involved a transitory phase known as the dictatorship of the proletariat. Later, Marx reasoned, the state would "whither away". The Communist states claimed to be in this transitory phase and to be "working towards communism". It can thus be argued that the Communist states followed Marx's theory and that it failed to work in the real world." Ultramarine11:57, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
The only things Marx ever said about the dictatorship of the proletariat were that 1. The proletariat would be the ruling class, and 2. It would look somewhat like the Paris Commune. The fact that the communist states claimed to follow Marx's theory is obvious; whether they actually did follow it is very controversial, with communists as early as 1936 (the year Trotsky wrote The Revolution Betrayed) claiming that the communist states were non-Marxist. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu13:43, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
and the paragraph as phrased would be PoV even if it were correct. "Dream"? a tendentious word if there ever was one. However, if M does not note that the communist states failed to achieve true communism while claiming to head there, I will add it. Septentrionalis22:09, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
I think what we have now is quite sufficient since there is no agreement on many issues for the moment. If you want to find more differences, you can check yourself. Ultramarine00:58, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
Please discuss portions of version U above this point.
Your version states "Finally, in the first half of the 1980s, Hungary, with a largely collectivised agriculture, exported more agricultural products than France from an agricultural area little more than a quarter of the French (FAO production, 1986, FAO Trade vol. 40, 1986).". This is contradicted by FAO's own statistcal database . Remove or add this contradiction. Ultramarine15:08, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Other business
Mihnea, you deleted the following text from the section on the LTV:
Critics of Marxism hold that the qualifier socially necessary is not well-defined, and conceals a subjective judgment of necessity. They also hold that market prices are in fact objectively determinable: the market price of a widget can be discovered by attempting to buy one.
The purpose of that section in this article is to discuss criticisms of the LTV. I believe this text includes major criticisms which are actually made. (Even if Marxists dismiss them as confusion, which should be added if true.) Please explain. Septentrionalis22:31, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
On closer inspection, I see that the first sentence does indeed state a real objection. I removed the paragraph due to the second one, however, which misrepresents both sides of the argument. The Marxists distinguish between use-value (which is objective, constant, and depends on the amount of socially necessary labor) and exchange-value (which is the market price). This is explained in Capital volume 1. The supporters of the STV, for their part, argue that "objective" value simply does not exist, and that the only real value of an object is its price on the market. I have no idea what the statement that "market prices are in fact objectively determinable" is supposed to refer to... -- Mihnea Tudoreanu23:34, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
That the question "What is the market price of a widget?" is answerable by independently replicable experiment. This is the sense of 'objective' I am accustomed to; but I have no objection to a rephrasing. I found the reversal neat. Septentrionalis16:15, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
But if it can be answered, replicably, then market prices are a proper subject for the scientific method. Calling them "subjective" does tend to imply that they are not. Restoring first sentence, btw. Septentrionalis18:25, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
Capitalist economists call the theory the "utility theory" of value. Could we substitute this name, and then add reproducibility?Septentrionalis21:55, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
Actually, a full name would be marginal utility theory of value, but it's often shortened to just marginal theory of value or marginalism. "Subjective theory of value" is another name given by its proponents, to distinguish it from all the objective theories of value (the LTV isn't the only one). I'll just change its name in this article to "marginal theory of value", and then we'll no longer need that confusing disclaimer about objective measurement. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu10:26, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
(reverting to full size) I believe there is a distinction here.
The capitalist economists changed (c. 1870, IIRC) to the utility theory of value which implies that the only "value" meaningful to everybody is market value.
Marginalism is a later refinement on this, dealing with how market functions in deciding any individual price.
See Russell's History of Western Philosophy, chapter on Marx. But the criticisms in Socially necessary labour time are sufficient to establish that LTV has been criticized for not defining its terms well. What criticisms of LTV were you planning to include, btw? Septentrionalis16:52, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
