Misplaced Pages

Aetherometry again

I've just done something controversial so I'd like you'all to review my actions. Having been unable to insert POV into the article, the anon or anons (it's difficult to tell. I suspect there ias only one person using multiple IPs editing style is difficult to fake) started vandalising the page. After a couple of blankings I said we'd protect the page to stop 'em. Then the page was blanked again and then it was restored by a helpful anon. I then vprotected the page. On checking the anon's contributions I noticed that the resoration of the page was his first edit. Sockpuppet radar on alert I checked the page and lo and behold it was a revert to an earlier version. Here is where you'all need to review my actions. I could have unlocked the page and reverted. (There has been tonnes of discussion on the talk page that he has not particlipated in) But that would leave the page open for vandalism. One page blanking lasted for over an hour (see history). So instead I edited the protected page and reveted to the preblanked page. I am 99% sure that both IPs are one and the same person. He is also writing nonsense on the talk page (see history because it's been deleted). I'm off to bed now. If you think I did the wrong thing. Feel free to unprotect. But if you do, please watch out for vandalism. Theresa Knott (a tenth stroke) 00:37, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm not part of the cabal quite yet, but it sounds to me like you followed the protection policy to the letter. Protecting the page to the POV version would have defeated the point of locking it, since the anon would have won; s/he wanted the POV in and was vandalizing because s/he didn't get it. Protecting on the NPOV version (or closest thing to it) was the right move -- Essjay · Talk 00:45, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

• Heck sure, I'll bite. It sure wasn't CONTRAVERSIAL (sic or, is that SICK?). And yes it's perfectly in line with the admin policy I've seen up until now. I don't see any cabal by the way Essjay, just the usual twisted antics of the same obnoxious little group of clowns -Theresa Knott, William M. Connolley, Anome, Natalinasmpf and co. You know the same droopy little group who have been trashing this page on an hourly basis since its inception. The ones who like to pretend they're on a noble mission to preserve the sanctity of mainstream science. The ones who don't know and don't want to know anything about the subject matter except how to find a way to smear it. The ones who act as official sockpuppets on all the serious non-mainstream science pages (see autodynamics, hydrino theory, etc.). The ones who tuck their tails between their legs and run when you confront them on facts - but are back the next day with a new set of slurs, lies and slander. Goebbels school of Information. The ones who plead on their webpages that they are 'notable' when their only notoriety is to be dicks. The ones who make sure that the pages are locked on a version of the page distorted by Theresa Knott, William M. Connolley, Anome, Natalinasmpf. The ones who cry they're being oppressed by the corporations and then proceed to try to discredit anyone conducting serious research outside of the mainstream system. The ones who pretend they are 'tidying up'. The ones who pretend the category PSEUDOSCIENCE is an NPOV description. The ones who always go running to other admins to say 'I did right didn't I? I followed wikipedia policy didn't I?' - after they've just pulled off another round of libelous slurs and suppression of information on the discussion pages. WELL IF THERE ARE ANY ADMINS LEFT IN HERE WITH ANY REMNANT OF COURAGE OR SELF RESPECT, WHICH I DOUBT, THEY SHOULD READ THE ARCHIVES OF THIS PAGE AND SUSPEND THE PRIVILEGES OF THESE ADMINS WITH RESPECT TO THIS ENTRY. 4.231.163.145 01:43, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

anon, Perhaps you'd get their attention faster if you used ALL BOLD CAPITAL LETTERS instead. And Theresa, relax. You did just fine. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 03:11, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

• OK Thanks for the advice official 'Uninvited' ADMIN/ANON. Just about what I expected. Here it is:

* Heck sure, I'll bite. It sure wasn't CONTRAVERSIAL (sic or, is that SICK?). And yes it's perfectly in line with the admin policy I've seen up until now. I don't see any cabal by the way Essjay, just the usual twisted antics of the same obnoxious little group of clowns -Theresa Knott, William M. Connolley, Anome, Natalinasmpf and co. You know the same droopy little group who have been trashing this page on an hourly basis since its inception. The ones who like to pretend they're on a noble mission to preserve the sanctity of mainstream science. The ones who don't know and don't want to know anything about the subject matter except how to find a way to smear it. The ones who act as official sockpuppets on all the serious non-mainstream science pages (see autodynamics, hydrino theory, etc.). The ones who tuck their tails between their legs and run when you confront them on facts - but are back the next day with a new set of slurs, lies and slander. Goebbels school of Information. The ones who plead on their webpages that they are 'notable' when their only notoriety is to be dicks. The ones who make sure that the pages are locked on a version of the page distorted by Theresa Knott, William M. Connolley, Anome, Natalinasmpf. The ones who cry they're being oppressed by the corporations and then proceed to try to discredit anyone conducting serious research outside of the mainstream system. The ones who pretend they are 'tidying up'. The ones who pretend the category PSEUDOSCIENCE is an NPOV description. The ones who always go running to other admins to say 'I did right didn't I? I followed wikipedia policy didn't I?' - after they've just pulled off another round of libelous slurs and suppression of information on the discussion pages. WELL IF THERE ARE ANY ADMINS LEFT IN HERE WITH ANY REMNANT OF COURAGE OR SELF RESPECT, WHICH I DOUBT, THEY SHOULD READ THE ARCHIVES OF THIS PAGE AND SUSPEND THE PRIVILEGES OF THESE ADMINS WITH RESPECT TO THIS ENTRY. 4.231.163.145 01:43, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

And I second that: suspend administrator privileges on Aetherometry entry for the following: PJacobi, Theresa Knott, William Michael Connolley, Karada, Freddie Salisbury, the Anome and Mel Etitis. For repeated tag-team reversals, unfounded statements, abuse of power (deletion, suppression, alteration of records), denigration of participants, fraudulent presentation of facts, systematic harassment of participants. Similar activities on other entries on non-mainstream science. 216.254.165.65 05:34, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

(can we remove these spillings of anons-without-countenance? I mean who even reads text formatted like this?) dab (ᛏ)

If you want some background on this, see Misplaced Pages:Categories for deletion/Log/2005 July 11 for Category:Non-mainstream science. We had an anon(s) who argued against everyone who wanted to delete the category. Probably the same one(s) you're having problems with now. --Kbdank71 13:24, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

• Kbdank71 pretends innocence when s/he as an admin anon immediately switched to Pseudoscience four distinct realms of serious,scientific research - as soon as the Category Non-maintream Science was summarily abolished by the admin club. Now, s/he can helpfully refer any poor sod to a page that does not exist...such is the hypocrisy of administrators in charge of these entries. In any case, since admins don't read, only count license numbers, and pat each other on the back, the matter is simply a travesty. 64.48.73.132 02:58, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Kdbank71's comment was intended primarily for the adminstrators reading this board. The CfD log does of course exist, and administrators can view the history of the deleted category itself. Is there a specific abuse of administrative power that you see? Like deleting an article in violation of the deletion policy or an unjustified block? If so, specific examples would be helpful. If you are simply upset with the behavior of a user or two, or would like comment about an article, filing an RfC would probably be more productive. It looks as though the concerns you have are not really administrator-specific—in fact, some of the users you mention are not administrators. Please realize that the way Misplaced Pages works is by consensus, and it is entirely appropriate for administrators or other users to seek feedback on their actions. Please also realize that when one person has a quarrel with most other users, while it may be that everyone else is wrong and the one is correct, there is a good chance that the reverse is true. And matters are not always right or wrong. For better or for worse, Misplaced Pages works by discussion and consensus—it's really the only system we have. In general, if you want to convince others to follow your way, you might achieve better results if you avoid the inflammatory remarks and the personal attacks. Finally, if administrators don't read, you are probably wasting your time posting remarks here, since we can't read them anyway. P.S. Theresa — I agree with your actions. — Knowledge Seeker দ 04:05, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Jihad and Islam

could somebody look into the mass reversal campaigns by assorted IPs on these articles? I'd rather not issue 3RR blocks myself, here, since I am involved. dab (ᛏ) 12:22, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

User:65.182.172.72

65.182.172.72 (talk · contribs) (plus the IP addresses that he has used in the past) has decided to go overboard in a minor dispute over wheather a sentance is npov. When the user I posted about the issue on the talk page, the user decided to personally attack me repeatedtly, and has been unwilling to seriously talk about the isssue. Additionaly, the user has removed signed comments of mine from Talk:Italian Beef. He/She has also vandalised my user page, posting "Racist and professional asshole to the stars". I also strongly belive that he/she intentially created the argument and kept it going. I warned the user on Talk:Italian Beef, and the user deleted the warning, and responded: "More crap from Reub, as our teen terror tries to play lawyer. Ruby, no matter how yoy try to argue your way around this one through bizarre misinterpretations of the policy, the rules do not give you the right to demand that others not do unto you, as you've felt free to do unto them, and if Misplaced Pages suggests otherwise, I'll give serious consideration to the possibility of filing a civil rights action against said company. At the very least, I'll spread the bad word, and it isn't going to do much for this site's credibility." Despite his unfounded accusations of me being a racist, I have never done anything racist to him. Reub2000 06:18, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

• This is in support of Reub2000's comment above. Anon IP poster, from varying IP's (most from 65.182.172.* netblock, but possibly others). Started by making generally abusive comments of anyone who wrote something he/she disagreed with, and within the last 2 days has started a "you're all against me because I'm not white" campaign, along with even more abusive comments. I strongly suspect the same user is responsible for the abusive comments at Talk:Chicago-style hot dog as well - he/she seems intent on disrupting the normal Misplaced Pages process, and demonstrating that Misplaced Pages is "unreliable". --Dcfleck 12:46, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

User:EnviroFuck

I believe this user's name alone violates policy.

In addition, he/she/it has made only three edits, one as part of a revert war on Jihad (which I now regret even touching), one making un-signed statements to the talk page, and one making false edits to my user page. Existentializer 16:29, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

This user is also very obviously the user 67.78.186.19 and is quite possibly an alternate name created by either Heraclius or BrandonYusufToropov (who were also involved in the Jihad bickering) though I cannot confirm this.Existentializer 16:29, 19 July 2005 (UTC)\

EnviroFuck's been blocked indefinitely. SlimVirgin 16:48, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

3RR Page

Sorry to have to ask, but I tried to be helpful and fix a content-duplication problem on the 3RR report page and I seem to have altered something in the "Report new violation" section, but I'm not sure how to fix it.

Can anyone help me? Existentializer 17:00, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Netoholic mentorship over

I am sorry to say that Netoholic's mentorship has basically failed. For the moment, he is therefore on the ArbCom restriction of no edits to Misplaced Pages: or Template: space (or their talks). We'll be working on something less restrictive for him, 'cos he is frequently good value IMO, just rather lacking in judgement - David Gerard 17:23, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Popular-music editors in concert, or...?

I've been having problems for some time with a number of (apparently) relatively new editors on a wide range of articles related to popular music (Spice Girls, Mariah Carey, and the like); my impression is that they're all teenage boys. the earliest was DrippinInk (talk · contribs) with whom I eventually came to an amicable resolution, but who has begun to slip back to his old style; at the same time, he's been joined by two more editors: OmegaWikipedia (talk · contribs) and OmegaWikipedia (talk · contribs). Their approach to editing is to write articles according to their own ideas, and then resist attempts by other editors to correct the English and Misplaced Pages style aggressively and persistently. Aside from extensive naming-convention problems (capitalising every word in sight, in titles and elsewhere), they make lists using HTML "br", give song titles with no inverted commas, or opening but no closing inverted commas, or opening straight and closing slanted inverted commas, use fanzine/music-journmalism language (records hit the shelves, they hit the charts, they spend 2 weeks at #1, everybody's referred to by her Christian name, there are lots of gushing adjectives, and so on), there are misspellings galore, etc. — and every attempt to correct these is simply reverted.

What on Earth do I do? I've tried my hardest to get through to them (see, for example, User talk:OmegaWikipedia, which also contains a message from DrippingInk including: "Plus, I'm sick and tired of all the bullshit when it comes to "Misplaced Pages" style. I don't give a damn if something is not in Misplaced Pages style", which pretty much sums up all three of them). Are they all the same person, or are there really three clone-like adolescent boys out there acting together? Help! --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 18:10, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

I've observed this dispute and I think Mel's behavior has been worse. He actually uses rollback in these content disputes, and continues to do so even after I cautioned him about it. Everyking 04:51, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

In one of his hourly releases of bile, Everyking did indeed attack me for using rollback; when I asked him to point to the policy that ruled it out, he went quiet. He has since repeated the attack, including the opinion that I should be de-adminned for using rollback. That he thinks that my behaviour is worse than the editors I've mentioned suggests to me that he has a very weak understanding of Misplaced Pages or of good behaviour. Still, the evidence is all there; if there's consensus that my behaviour is poor, then I clearly fail to understand my responsibilities, and I suggest that someone de-admin me. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 11:03, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Suggestion noted, and summarily denied. :) El_C 11:07, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

User:CockBot

Can somebody with admin rights please enforce a block on User:CockBot thanks? This user is vandalising many articles with no sign of stopping. -- Longhair | Talk 18:33, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Account has been blocked indefinitely by Karada. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:27, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Broonee

I blocked user:Broonee indefinately. Jimbo long long ago allowed us to block users who were only here to troll, and this couldn't be a clearer case. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:00, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

Personal attack

I just made one on User:Chocolateboy. I believe the exact words were "Oh, fuck you". Suggest that an admin blocks me for 24 hours. - Ta bu shi da yu 04:25, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Done. --Michael Snow 04:30, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Undone - there is no blocking policy for personal attacks, and while I support it in some circumstances, lone personal attacks from users whose conduct is otherwise impeccable are not among them. Snowspinner 04:33, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

I do believe that if someone recognizes their own personal attack, and asks to be blocked in order to have the benefit of a cooling-off period, we might as well grant that wish. It might even lead incrementally to greater acceptance of this type of block. --Michael Snow 04:40, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

If Ta wants to stay away for a day over a personal attack, he is welcome to. Snowspinner 04:46, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

I don't think there's anything wrong with responsible self-blocking--clearly we don't want someone trolling WP:AN by constantly requesting 37 minute blocks or anything, but I think this is very reasonable. I personally (after my brief service on the AC) recognized that some editors felt singled out by the "personal attack parole" and the "revert parole" they were placed on, and so I have accepted them as my own personal policy. If I had said what Ta bu did, I'd be asking for the same consideration. I don't think we need to do anything to discourage admins who choose to live by a higher law -- on the contrary, I wish more took our site's standards as seriously. Jwrosenzweig 06:37, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Retreat to policy when the policy suits you, block and call it "common sense" when it doesn't. Everyking 04:48, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I await the explanation of why this suits me. Snowspinner 05:03, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

Because you're evil, of course, so any action you do is a priori evil.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot: drink! --Calton | Talk 05:48, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

He can start behaving uncontroversially any day now. Edits and admin actions are judged on their merits, at least by me. Everyking 10:30, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I see this act of TBSDY as showing off. BTW, did he apologize? mikka (t) 17:50, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Harry Potter and the Enormous Headache

These two three revisions of Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince (the edits by 65.6.66.74 (talk · contribs)) contain the book in its entirety. Given that they were both immediately reverted and there is thus on GFDL issue, and that the copyright owner is extremely litigious and well-funded, could someone delete the article and restore only the other revisions? —Cryptic (talk) 04:52, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Better to ask a dev to remove those two versions. Snowspinner 05:05, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

Then could I bother someone who's IRC-enabled (I'm not) to try and get ahold of one? —Cryptic (talk) 05:08, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Snowspinner, a regular admin can only make those edits invisible, to actually clear them totally from the history you'll need a developer.--nixie 05:11, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Can't we simply delete the article and undelete all revisions but these three? I thought the ability to selectively undelete only some revisions exists for exactly these kinds of situations. Of course, admins would still be able to read the deleted revisions, but that shouldn't be a real problem. --cesarb 16:28, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

No. When you undelete you undelete everything. We need a developer. Theresa Knott (a tenth stroke) 00:21, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Tim has killed them. That said, you can now undelete specific revisions. But on a 3000+ edit article, undeleting all but two is basically pure hell. Snowspinner 04:40, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Wonderful! If these -dare I say vandals?- continue to do this (as MTG shows below), we'll need more developer assistance as time goes on. I need some painkillers. --Deathphoenix 16:03, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

And the headache continued throbbing, for in this revision doth the copyvio remain! Only chapter 1 by the looks of things, but it needs deleting too. Garrett 05:04, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Pugnavi & socks

Pugnavi (talk · contribs), Pugnare (talk · contribs), Pugnavi2 (talk · contribs), Hendiadioin (talk · contribs), and Hendiadis (talk · contribs) were blocked indefinately today for making threats against the site (specifically, threatening to upload a virus into the database) and for being sockpuppets of one another. Kelly Martin blocked the first two, and I blocked the last three. All acknowledged being the blocked user. I bring the issue up here for two reasons: 1) Just in case the sock problem continues, and 2) is this a case where the "danger" provision of the blocking policy applies? Since it was my first block, I just want to make sure I don't miss any steps, particularly with regard to #2. -- Essjay · [ ] 16:47, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

Dont worry. This comes under "when the blocking policy doesn't cover the situation use common sense" which isn't actually in the blocking policy so I'm bootstrapping it. Theresa Knott (a tenth stroke) 17:24, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

It might have been better to look at what the user was actually saying, it didn't look much like a threat to me. Seems like you're only telling part of the truth. I also don't think blocking just because a user is a sock is right. How will the blocked user negotiate then? Looks like Essjay is abusing his new powers! JM*Bell° 11:23, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

You mean, the unthreatening bit where Pugnavi (with the second of his three edits) says

"Think about it. You'll be hearing from me in the future, so I guess you better not ignore this, or I'll upload a virus into one of the media files."

Or perhaps his first edit, which explicitly identifies itself as a threat?

"This is a threat. If you do not change and spread this word, I will personally make sure a virus is uploaded into one of the media files so that whoever opens it will get infected. Mark my words."

Why would we want to "negotiate" with a threatening sockpuppet? Essjay gets two thumbs up for blocking a user who was clearly asking for it. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:42, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I would like to add that User:Pugnavi was vandalizing many articles before he was blocked which that in itself is enough of a reason to block him and his sockpuppets. --Eliezer | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 08:50, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

User:84.9.223.35

Is not me, and forged my signature (completely, including link) against a vote at VFD - ~~~~ 22:28, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I've issued a warning on the user talk page. Theresa Knott (a tenth stroke) 23:32, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

User:Tanner2

All articles + one Image:...pdf?? created are nonsense. Please delete and notify. -Feydey 23:38, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Please report vandalism on WP:VIP. Please nominate nonsense articles either on WP:CSD or WP:VFD as appropriate. And if you think a user is behaving inapproprately, it's only fair to discuss the matter with them on their talk page. A brief check of this user's contributions suggests he's not an out and out (tubgirl etc.) vandal. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 23:47, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

I've deleted the pdf, but the articles look as if they may well be good faith. I suggest you go the vfd route. Theresa Knott (a tenth stroke) 23:47, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Was it really a pdf (I thought you couldn't upload them) or just a page called image:somethingorother.pdf ? (When I looked at it all I saw was an extant, but imageless, page)-- Finlay McWalter | Talk 00:31, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

You doubt me ? ;-) Yep it certainly was a pdf. I opened it and took a look. (of course I did, I wouldn't delete something without checking what it was :-P ) It was a pdf version of the "newspaper". Theresa Knott (a tenth stroke) 00:52, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

PDFs provide a plain-text link to the file in the place where the inline image would be, so surely you would have seen one for this. Unless that link is browser-end and it tries to insert the PDF inline... anyway, just a thought in passing. :) Garrett 00:59, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

The reason he couldn't see it, was because I deleted it. Theresa Knott (a tenth stroke) 01:10, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Ah... *and all was well in the world again* :) Garrett 05:20, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

User:GrandCru and socks

GrandCru (talk · contribs) recently made a series of controversial edits that were reverted. Today, two new accounts were created that jumped right into the conflicts that GrandCru was involved in: BobbybuiIder (talk · contribs) (impersonating User:Bobbybuilder) and WiIfried Derksen (talk · contribs) (impersonating User:Wilfried Derksen, a.k.a. User:Electionworld). The impostor accounts have since been blocked, but GrandCru, assuming he is indeed responsible, has not been held accountable. --MarkSweep 03:57, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

GrandCru (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) claimed that he is not the imposter, meanwhile he reverted all vandalised pages to WiIfried Derksen (talk · contribs) or BobbybuiIder (talk · contribs)'s versions. Furthermore, the writing style from the impostor accounts are the same as GrandCru (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Please hold him accountable. Bobbybuilder 12:23, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

On the advice of Ilyanep, I blocked GrandCru as a sockpuppet. -- Essjay · Talk 20:34, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. (We won't be needing that stake, I think.) Related to this, what should be made of the following diff: ? It's the work of JiangsBellybuttonLint (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), one of the many accounts created recently for the sole purpose of harassing User:Jiang (see the history of his user page and his talk page). I'm starting to wonder if a single sockpuppet-master is behind these accounts. --MarkSweep 07:13, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I saw that last night, and I hit him with a permablock. -- Essjay · Talk 14:51, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Ok. If you look at the history of Jiang's user page, you'll see that this is all part of a regular pattern, unfortunately. If they all originate from a single IP address, perhaps something could be done besides blocking individual accounts? --MarkSweep 18:34, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, that's fine, I don't give a frog's fat ass if you block people that deserve it. But I (the original GrandCru) didn't create the fake Bobby or Derksen accounts. I was innocent, and got blocked anyway. If you look at Bobbybuilder's history, you will see that his profanity and vandalisms were far greater than mine ever were. He was the truly abusive one, but you guys keep overlooking it. Why was he not blocked? Go ahead, look up all the IP addresses, you will see that prior to today I had nothing to do with any of the Jiang bullshit. But, you know what? Since you guys blocked me permanently and put to waste all my effort and contributions, I will spend the same amount of time vandalising Bobbybuilder. (And Jiang, only because Jiang's group of vandals are going to help me get Bobby). One of these days, the vandals will rise up against the communists. You can prohibit freedom of speech in mainland China, but not in the rest of the world. Misplaced Pages was created so that everyone can contribute, but as it turns out, the people that have power (admins, beaurocrats, etc.) will abuse it to support their own POVs, etc. Fuck you all, I'm going to the dark side of wiki! --GrandCruTwo 03:41, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Hum..."I wasn't a vandal before, but since I got blocked, instead of asking to be unblocked, I'll become a vandal." Methinks the lady doth protesteth too much. -- Essjay · Talk 23:52, July 24, 2005 (UTC)

Methinks the lady is also blockéd frometh editing. -- Essjay · Talk 23:55, July 24, 2005 (UTC)

Added a section on this vandal in Misplaced Pages:Vandalism in progress/Long term alerts, includes an ever growing list of sockpuppets. -Loren 05:05, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

The most recent one is Oy Maatsulu (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and has apparently not been blocked yet. --MarkSweep 18:02, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, you better believe that I haven't been blocked yet. I will continue until the right people have been banned. As long as Bobbybuilder is in existance, I will continue.--BobbyButtSlime 01:49, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Blocked. -- Essjay · Talk 01:57, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

Ooops. Not Blocked. Heh heh...--The Assjay Strikes Back 02:38, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Simple English persistent vandal (Roberto)

There is a persistent vandal "Roberto" vandalizing the front page of Simple English by modifying the Template:Wikitopics used on the main page. Images of masturbation on the main page is not a good thing. Has been a user on Simple for less than 24 hours. At least three of us have used up our 3 reverts just in the last hour or two. User:Netoholic and/or User:Angela are asleep (has to happen sometime). :( We need the guy (?) blocked now. Shenme 05:34, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

A "white hat" (User:Brion VIBBER) showed up and deleted the 60+ new junk articles, cleaned up the others, and blocked Roberto the monotonously masterbaiting. Thank you greatly! Shenme 06:07, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Votes for deletion/Authentic Matthew

Votes being deleted, and other abuse of process, by User:Mikefar, a probable sockpuppet. ~~~~ 06:34, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

• The following comments copied from Misplaced Pages talk:Votes for deletion

This VfD is now something of a mess; in addition, -Ril- (talk · contribs) has taken charge of it, and is treating it as his personal fiefdom, deciding which comments stay and which go, deleting criticism of his actions (on the basis that they're from sock-puppets — allegations which are mostly not only unproved but unlikely). Experience tells me that my intervention would only add fuel to the fire; could someone else try to clear up the mess and rstore order? the wholething seems to be a skirmish in what's become a prolonged campaign between -Ril- and a group of other editors (some of whom, but not all, probably are sock-puppets). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:11, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

If someone is removing others' comments then that's simple vandalism. Whether he thinks they're sock puppets or not is irrelevant. Block him. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:18, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

He seems to moving comments that he disagrees with to Misplaced Pages talk:Votes for deletion/Authentic Matthew, rather than actually deleting them, - SimonP 21:34, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure that excuses him. Finding a result from a contentious VfD is the job of an admin, not of a user with a Bombus ruderatus in his super-caputular protection. -Ril- should leave the votes alone. smoddy 21:42, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Any chance of someone intervening? As I said, -Ril-'s response to me is knee-jerk hostility, so I'd have no good effect. (I'm morally certain that he's Lir (talk · contribs), though an IP address check was apparently negative.) --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 20:40, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

As I've said on the VfD, Ril is in need of a sound spanking. I don't care who says what, no matter how much Ril might think his actions are supported by WP policy, they simply are NOT. He is acting apparently according to what he perceives as "boldness" (I said long ago this was going to cause trouble), when in fact his boldness is CLEARLY within the realm of "vandalism". What's positively repulsive is that the admins who normally patrol this sort of subject have stood silently by, permitting Ril to attempt to beat all opposition into submission. It's positively appalling. While there are certainly valid allegations of sockpuppetry, Ril's actions are in CLEAR violation of several CORE WP policies, including WP:AGF, WP:BITE, WP:Civility and WP:NPA. It's insane that he hasn't yet been permbanned, to say nothing of 24h blocked. Tomer 09:26, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Have the votes been moved back or are they still on the talk page? Theresa Knott (a tenth stroke) 10:06, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I've been watching this, and I haven't seen any votes being moved. The moves I've seen were of multi-page essays. --Carnildo 18:17, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I have not moved any votes whatsoever, and I strongly resent this continued vendetta against me by Mel Etitis throught my duration at Misplaced Pages, because he/she considers me to be someone called Lir, despite the evidence to the contrary. I view the accusation as a personal attack, and would like it withdrawn. ~~~~ 12:33, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Further, the only things I have moved are (a) restoring brief comments where they were originally, including evidence of certain voters being sockpuppets, which were removed by the said sockpuppets (b) an instruction not to delete the article whatever the vote outcome, because this instruction violated VFD policy, and required an injunction from the arbitration committee to stand, which simply did not exist (c) a vast "rebuttal" section, which policy does not include for, and which was far too extensive to be considered merely a comment. I moved this to talk, and placed a note to this effect in the VFD. ~~~~ 12:33, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Please, please, please will someone close off this VfD - I have some interest in the issues, but the debate has got well out of hand (and IMO neither side is innocent). There is no longer any chance of a sensible discussion - and all but the warriors have left the room. Continuing this will only lead to more grief. --Doc (?) 01:14, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Albrecht Prinz von Croy

...was deleted from the German Misplaced Pages, and protected because some anon repeatedly recreated it. It is now on VFD here, and the article, its talk page and the VFD page are under fire by User:83.109.164.130, User:83.109.188.122, User:83.109.130.238 and User:83.109.156.169 - arguably the same person on four different IPs. It may be worthwhile to keep an eye on this. Radiant_>|< 12:25, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Now that's an interesting one though I suspect I know the answer to my next question... User:83.109.188.122 has pasted the text of the German article (in German) to the talk page of this article. Can we delete it automatically as previously vfd'd material, or does that not apply as it was a different wiki project? -- Francs2000 | Talk File:Uk flag large.png 18:22, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I think it should be deleted as useless junk. This is the EN-wiki, not the german wiki, so pasting text in a foreign language, particularly previously VfD'd information, should be treated as vandalism. -- Essjay · Talk 18:27, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

NB: I've deleted the relevant talk page (the only edit was the vandalism) and warned the user not to post it again. I found the edit summary about revoking sysop powers rather amusing. -- Essjay · Talk 18:32, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Persistent linkspammer

I was holding off on reporting this one, but now it seems this anon just doesn't get it. The edits started July 19 from 81.182.153.218 (talk · contribs) on pages such as Hungary, Medical tourism and Misplaced Pages:Wikiportal/Trains/Where to start. Each of the anon's edits were to add a link to a geocities page that isn't anything but a collection of further links and some ads. Yesterday, the anon was back as 81.182.153.8 (talk · contribs) with the same activity. All of the linkspam was promptly reverted by a number of other editors (including myself), and the user was warned on both IP talk pages. Today, he's back as 81.183.164.101 (talk · contribs) adding the same links to the same places and getting the same reverts. slambo 12:44, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

I haven't seen this linkspammer return today, so he may have gotten the point. Thanks to those who helped out. slambo 19:19, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Nest of trolls at 24.24.218.220

This is one guy's cable (cpe-24-24-218-220.socal.res.rr.com). Names used were ThePope, TeamKiller, CaptainNiggo, CaptainStinko, CaptainFecehead, Fisting, Fisting2 and the IP itself. The mission was to troll. I've blocked the IP for a month (feel free to renew it in a month) and the names indefinitely - David Gerard 18:18, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages Username & Anonymous0513

I'm concerned about Misplaced Pages Username (talk · contribs) and Anonymous0513 (talk · contribs). Both accounts appeared this morning, and both have worked exculsively creating album articles. Misplaced Pages Username voted oppose in the RfA of the user who welcomed him by copy/pasting the comments of the user above him. (Albiet, I noticed this because I nominated the user; checking the contributions to determine how long Misplaced Pages Username had been around was what set off my wikisenses). This edit suggests the two have a history (but how, if they both showed up early this morning?) and this edit is even stranger. (I warned Misplaced Pages Username for copyvio on Buck Dharma (which I've since deleted as a copyvio) but I think that is unrelated to the existing situation.) My concern is that the two may be sockpuppets of some previous user; does anyone else think that something's rotten in the state of Denmark? -- Essjay · Talk 20:33, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Regardless of activities my feelings are that user:Misplaced Pages Username is an inapropriate username on the grounds of being confusing. Thryduulf 21:24, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, not a good user name. Heck, I was asked to change mine from User:AdmN, because someone thought it looked like an abbreviation of "administrator". Just point him in the direction of Misplaced Pages:Username. func(talk) 22:16, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

While we're on the subject of bad names, no one has blocked NigletJones (talk · contribs) (reincarnation?). You may want to see this. --Dmcdevit·t 22:29, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

It appears to be user:Marijuanaisbad. Who we were being trolled over - David Gerard 09:28, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Marijuanaisbad was a sockpuppet of "Zod"; I'm of the opinion that these two are the same disruptive user, particularly since the only two users he's interacted with are Redwolf24 & I, and we were the two main users being trolled by Marijuanaisbad and "Zod." I'd like others to look it over first, but I think a sockpuppet block is in order (particularly considering this edit). -- Essjay · Talk 15:07, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

personal attacks at talk:Albanians

user:Albanau left a message on my talk page about personal attacks against him at talk:Albanians, by user:Chronographos, and asking me to block him for 24 hours.

After reading all the links, I decided not to block at this point but to give user:Chronagraphos a very stern warning on his talk page not to do it again or he will be blocked. I've encouraged user:Albanau to note here if there are any further problems as I'm not going to be online much longer this evening.

See user talk:Thryduulf, talk:Albanians , user talk:Chronographos and user talk:Albanau. Thryduulf 22:06, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

user:Theathenae have also repeatedly engaged in personal attacks against me and not just Chronographos, that what I told you on the talk page. But thank you very much for the help so far but I hope a administrator can leave a warning at Theatheane talk page as well. --Albanau 22:45, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Basically User:Albanau's contributions to wikipedia is nothing but trouble such as petty-vandalism, edit-wars and false complaints. Miskin 03:05, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I don't want to start a 'flame of words' with you so kindly remove your allegations from this topic, cause it is off topic. Albanau 03:18, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Pointing out User:Albanau's support for armed Albanian extremist groups was relevant and essential to the discussion at Talk:Albanians, as his edits are motivated by a violent Albanian extremism, and it is within this context they must be seen for what they are.--Theathenae 06:50, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Can someone, any administrator, please delate Theathenae personal attacks above and perament or temporary ban him. Many thanks in advance! Albanau 12:35, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Albanau, I have just reviewed the behaviour of Theathenae on talk:Albanians and I see absolutely nothing improper in the form of what he says. On the other hand, I did see instances of you employing words such as "pathetic" toward other users (and not discussing tragedy).

I find it legitimate of Theathenae to explain his view of the situation, and your request to have him banned for doing so wholly unappropriate. You might also be interested to know that your usage of capitals and urging tone in the summary are rather rude.

I would like to advise you to calm down and fill in a Request for Comments if you cannot ease your differences together. Rama 13:29, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Finally, an admin who reads what has happened. As anyone can see by looking at the relevant talk pages and article histories, Albanau has been systematically rude to anyone who disagrees with him, to the extent of calling a fellow Albanian of his "very unintelligent", just because they disagreed. Albanau has also violated the 3RR rule multiple times (he even did 4 reverts within 51 minutes), yet he has consistently taunted other editors to revert and break the 3RR. If they take the bait, he immediately reports them. He has been very cunning in that he first edits in his own POV, and then creates a revert war, according to plan. He has also repeatedly given provocative titles to his edit summaries, and when offered neutral phrasings, he ignores them. In an vain effort to compromise, I even proposed using his own words in the article. Guess what: he started wiggling out of his own words. I will appreciate your involvement in this, if you have the time and disposition. I also suspect sockpuppetry in the Talk:Albanians page, but for the time being I do not intend to request its investigation as it would inflame things further. Milles mercis. Chronographos 15:17, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Indeed. I merely let other editors know of User:Albanau's activities on the Swedish Misplaced Pages, in which he clearly promotes , armed extremist groups in the Balkans, claiming that they are fighting for "human rights" and against "cultural oppression". These are his words, not mine. His blatant promotion of these groups was later removed by another editor as "redundant propaganda": ,, while his dubious claim that there is a ""Çamëria Liberation Army" in Greece fighting for "human rights" was disputed, and no reference to such a group exists on the English Misplaced Pages. Finally, seeing as he is complaining of personal attacks, a non-comprehensive list of User:Albanau's personal attacks against me and other editors on Talk:Albanians follows: , , , . Who's the one who should really be banned?--Theathenae 13:57, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Albanau has been causing nothing but trouble with his untenable edits and style. How people react to him is a matter of taste, but hardly unprovoked; last time I checked, personal attacks per se were not blockable, only if it is "disruptive", so the complaint is pointless here, it should go to rfc, and then to the arbcom, and I do not think Albanau is likely to find much favour with the arbcom, in the light of his own behaviour. dab (ᛏ) 19:30, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

I've been watching the edit patterns of both User:Albanau and User:Theathenae, and I must say that they are both atrocious Wikipedians who need to be disciplined. User:Chronographos has a fine edit history when it comes to his edits to actual articles, but he has unfortunately become well-known for his Ad hominem attacks on other Wikipedians(see Talk:Greek language where Chronographos launches a personal attack on User:Macrakis for no good reason), and one would hope that such behavior doesn't continue. Decius 19:44, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

It is amusing to see User:Decius pontificate on the behaviour of other editors, especially considering the dirty linen he has in his closet. Misplaced Pages policy specifically proscribes "racial, sexual, homophobic, religious or ethnic epithets directed against another contributor", but this didn't stop him from launching into a homophobic tirade on Talk:Ancient Macedonian language not so long ago: , , , , , , and (edit summary). I am confident that a review of my edit history would find nothing inappropriate in terms of content, even if I have defended some of my edits a bit too zealously on occasion and fallen foul of the 3RR - when I have felt an injustice being committed. For that you can blame my passionate Greek nature.--Theathenae 21:21, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I suppose that, taken out of context, those edits would seem astounding to the average reader, and paint me out to be a cruel Marquis de Sade. However, one must read the history of that Talk Page and read Chronographos' comments which led up to it. The issue here is User:Albanau and User:Theathenae's edits. Decius 21:35, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

What the average reader would make of your remarks is irrelevant, as is the context in which they were made. Your persistent homophobic attacks were a flagrant violation of official Misplaced Pages policy, for which you need to be disciplined. As for my edits, I stand by them as stated above.--Theathenae 21:49, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

I don't need to be disciplined for anything. Chronographos knew what he was getting into when he kept prodding at me. I stand by my edits also. They were made after I lost all patience with the said User, after I attempted numerous times to settle things peacefully. But that's in the past, and I don't have any quarrel with Chronographos now. Decius 21:55, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

This isn't about your personal vendetta against User:Chronographos. This is about you breaking the rules, whatever the reason. And you must face the consequences.--Theathenae 22:01, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

If you want to start talking about "rules", then I'll remind you of User:Chronographos' breaking of the rules in his numerous personal attacks on me, not to mention your personal attacks on other Users. Bring it on. Decius 22:05, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

"Personal attacks" are open to interpretation - his remarks could just as easily be seen as witty albeit acerbic ripostes. Your homophobia, on the other hand, is below the belt.--Theathenae 22:16, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

No, there are attacks of his on record which are clearly personal attacks. Not to mention comments of yours, which I will bring up if I need to do, made on other pages. As for the "homophobia" charge, faggot can also mean, in American slang, "a man who has no balls". So I don't see any homophobia in those comments. Decius 22:21, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Is describing someone as a "deranged homosexual" in an edit summary also free of homophobic sentiment? I think you've been comprehensively outed as a homophobe, so it's pointless trying to hide in your closet now. And please refrain from editing my comments. Cheers.--Theathenae 22:31, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

I didn't edit your comment. That was a Wiki glich. I did not make that edit, nor do I see why I would have. Decius 22:55, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

guys, if you start denouncing each other now over all the frolicking that went down on the XMK talkpage, I'll be very disappointed in both of you. dab (ᛏ) 22:39, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

It is not my intention to disappoint you, dab, but I will not be slandered, threatened or intimidated by a supporter of armed extremists or a homophobe.--Theathenae 22:50, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

That's not homophobia, that was the impression that he gave me at the time: a deranged homosexual. I was not disparaging him for being a deranged homosexual, just giving a description. In those instances where I was using "faggot" and "fag", they were referring to the lack of balls that he was displaying (e.g., talking a lot of trash but not stating his name; whining like a bitch, etc.). Decius 22:39, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

If you had balls you would just admit your homophobia and face the music, or rather, take it like a man.--Theathenae 22:50, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

I may have made personal attacks in response to his personal attacks, but they are not homophobic if you read them as I intended. Such a use of faggot is well-known and common usage. Decius 23:00, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

User:Dudtz trolling

User:Dudtz has been going to various UK-related pages and posting fairly wild generalisations on their talk pages. At first I thought they were just ignorant of the facts and were finding out in their own way; now the same user has posted the same over-generalised ignorant-of-the-facts argument to Talk:United Kingdom/Country, Kingdom or State as they had done to Talk:United Kingdom and Talk:Scotland: on both pages their rather judgmental stance had been challenged by other users. I think he's just trolling for the sake of it and it would be handy if other admins could keep an eye out because I don't know how much longer I'm going to be online tonight. -- Francs2000 | Talk File:Uk flag large.png 22:31, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I'd call it not so much trolling but more a severe case of WP:POINT. --UPDATE: I've given him a friendly little reminder about WP:POINT, hopefully that's all that's needed, but please do keep us up to date if he continues along this path. Garrett 12:10, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

User:Bang_Bang - latest Bank of Misplaced Pages sock

I've rolled back already and plan to delete and block with extreme prejudice... unless someone else would like the honour. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 13:45, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Done. I deleted history for some "bank" pages since the latest sock was linking into their history. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 15:06, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Let me ask you something. Can you delete this entry without affecting the rest history of the talk page of User:Hall_Monitor? If you cannot, then Hall Monitor's account is still safe. Even if your revert our message, this cannot harm our bank. We still know and Hall Monitor also knows, what his current deposit is. So, can you delete or hide some entries of history, while keeping the rest entries readable? Bank Bang 21:56, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I can but I'm not going to. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 04:31, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I am afraid you have to. Otherwise how can you stop us? Bank Gong 08:17, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

See also User:Bang Bank. FreplySpang (talk) 21:22, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

(whom I just blocked) FreplySpang (talk) 21:24, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Do you guys ever worry that these blocks just egg people on and push them further and further from any hope of being agreeable? I mean, come on, this started out as a harmless little game/rewards system, and now we've got this mess on our hands. Had we left it alone, one of two things would have happened: the game would've continued, causing no harm, or the banker would've gotten bored and dropped it. Everyking 03:55, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

In general I don't believe that "don't feed the trolls" works. In this case in particular, I think that the perpetrator has every intention of running his banking game for a period of years. Had it been shut down after drawing greater participation, there would have been people upset. And I think that its shutdown would have been inevitable, because similar stuff has been shut down before. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 04:29, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

What similar stuff has been shut down before? We asked you three questions and you avoided to answer to us or give us a reasonable explanation of your unfair behavior... Why you are afraid of us so much? Bank Gong 08:14, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Blocked. Thryduulf 09:39, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Want to place a bet as to whether he comes back with another name? Everyking 11:43, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

No, but I'd be happy to place bets as to whether he gives up after a couple more weeks of this. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 11:57, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

He'll be back. This is user:Iasson - orginator of the Faethon and list of ancient Greeks sockpuppets - who is banned for a year by the arbcom . I'd personally prefer to slap an IP ban on him, but I beleive he edist from a dynamic range owned by the one of the largest ISPs in Greece. Thryduulf 12:01, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Shame on you! Instead of answering to our questions and explain to us and to our clients why you keep chasing us, you are lying and claiming that we are a banned user (either Iasson or Whily on Wheels or Faethon or whatever). Why are you doing this? Answer to our three questions please. Why any other wikipedia bank is tolerated here, and our nomic bank isnt?

• The latest one is Gong_Bank already hitting user talk pages. ∞Who?¿? 19:48, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
  • User:Gong Bank has been blocked. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 22:51, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

User:Master Thief Garrett

I'd appreciate more eyes on the the deletion log of this new and very inexperienced admin. In the few hours in which he has had sysop powers, he has made quite a number of very questionable speedies. See User talk:Master Thief Garrett. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 17:44, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Tony is absolutely right. The thing with the expansion of WP:CSD is that even though the rules have been relaxed regarding deletion, we still have to follow them. I have gone through the Thief's deletions and undeleted several questionable items, and note that the more egregious deletions have already been undone by others. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 18:40, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Considering that I've only been an admin a bit longer than MTG, and I did quite a few speedies yesterday, I'd like to make a self-request for review of my deletions. -- Essjay · Talk 18:47, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

You're welcome. I'm off out soon, but I took a quick look at noticed that you'd deleted Nasalis muscle, a perfectly good encyclopedia article needing a bit of cleanup. I've restored and cleaned it up as a demonstration of the standard of work I would expect an administrator to produce. I'd suggest that if you don't understand an article it doesn't mean that you have to delete it. Usually a minute or two on Google will bring enlightenment. Also remember to look at "What links here". I hope you agree that as administrators we should be trying to make articles better whenever that is reasonably possible. Deleting good material is never a sensible option. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 19:10, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Incidentally, the article nasalis muscle (and a number of other contributions from Andy85719 (talk · contribs)) are direct copy-pastes from the online version of Gray's Anatomy. Although it's the 1918 edition and copyright has lapsed, I've strongly encouraged Andy to cite his sources to avoid charges of plagiarism. (Note that I'm definitely not saying that MTGEssjay should have speedied the article.) TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:48, 22 July 2005 (UTC) Amended 20:28, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Plagiarism isn't the correct word to use here. We are not--or should not--be here to produce anything creative, but to state facts, so the word would be inappropriate. Referencing Gray would certainly be de rigueur here, because Gray is an authority and your average Wikipedian is not (and even when he is he must still cite an external authority). --Tony Sidaway|Talk 04:04, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Er, plagiarism is precisely the correct word to use here. It's a direct, unaltered, unexpanded copy of someone else's words pasted in without attribution. I am not saying it's a copyright violation, but it is definitely plagiarism if its source is left uncited. I am glad you've added a cite to nasalis muscle, Tony; have you had a chance to get the other articles? --TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:11, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Also beware of deleting articles for unorthodox reasons such as "gamecruft". If an article relates to an aspect of a game that you think is too trivial for an article, you should consider merging content and, unless there is a good reason to delete, replace by a redirect. If for some reason you think the article should still be deleted (for instance for lack of a candidate article to which to merge the information) list it on VfD. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 19:17, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to second Tony's points here. If you can't cite the Misplaced Pages:Criteria for speedy deletion that you're invoking, then it's probably not a candidate. --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 19:30, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure I've never deleted anything as "gamecruft" for two reasons: 1) I hate the term "cruft," and 2) the only two times I've ever typed the word are in this sentence. If it appears in my delete log, then it is because it was part of the CSD tag on the article. I think I can speak for both MTG and myself to say this: Along with berating us for our mistakes, make sure to tell us when we do something good. We are people, afterall. The words of Larry Sanger ring in my ears... -- Essjay · Talk 19:50, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I'd say that in general you're doing a good job. If you're not sure about an article tagged as a speedy, leave it for another admin or take it to VfD. Chin up, and wield your mop with pride. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 20:28, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

See also User talk:Redwolf24#thanks for supporting me. Redwolf24 22:10, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I want to support TenOfAllTrades' sentiment. Master Thief Garrett is certainly administrator material. I'm only concerned that, only three months an editor, he may be a little too green to exercise the good judgement we expect in all circumstances. He's doing a good job and I don't want to minimize that, though I hope he listens to advice. EssJay is also doing an excellent job.

On the question of gamecruft, the specific article I was referring to was Quantum Accelerator.

• "23:20, 21 July 2005 Essjay deleted "Quantum Accelerator" (content was: '{{db|gamecruft}}The Device used in Final Doom to close gateways from hell, the gatekkepr then tries to use them for some evil means that is not expla...')"

The article made perfect sense in itself, but had been marked as "gamecruft" (which is not a CSD) by Gazpacho. According to our agreed deletion policy, such articles should be cleaned up and merged, or VfD'd, not speedied. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 23:15, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Hello all! Time to face the firing squad I see! :)

First of all, I am very displeased with this incident notice. Why? If there is any sort of statement being made against someone, at least have the decency to inform them. I only found this out by happening to check for responses to some of the thanks messages I left. Not a good start I can tell you.

OK, I will admit it, YES, DUH, I -SCREWED- UP BIIIG TIIIME!!!!! There, that's what you wanted isn't it? OK? Done? Yes? If I'm making mistakes, tell me, I can take it, but you don't have to word it so... nastily as has been done on my talk page.

Everything I did I did in good faith. I deleted dozens of "ashiagniaw" and linkspam articles. I cleared out the speedy catogory backlog. I trawled through Special:Newpages looking for all manner of things to start Vfds on sometime this morning.

And what do I get in return? "Hey, great job, but, um, be careful with X, Y and Z next time"? Well, yes... and no.

Some of the warnings I've gotten have been very kind and forgiving, explaining precisely what was wrong and what was right and what to do in future... but some have been brief and barbed and evidently written after sucking multiple lemons. Yes you know who you are.

In closing, yes I overstepped myself and misunderstood the new criteria... but I expected better treatment from you-know-who. If I was weak and insecure I'd probably be quietly sobbing in the corner right now. Oh, yes, good job there.

--Just to clarify, no I'm not angry, no I'm not hurt, just... quite, quite disappointed. Garrett 01:08, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for cleaning up some of the piles of crap people leave around the project. I have absolute confidence everything you did was done in a good faith understanding of the rules. Snowspinner 01:30, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

Seconded. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 02:36, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Master Thief Garrett is being just a tiny bit naughty here. He asks people to inform him if there is a problem with his deletions, and yet anybody who goes to his talk page will see that this is just what has been done. I urge him not to disregard these well intended criticisms, and to learn from his early mistakes. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 02:32, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I think as a rule if you have any doubt at all as to whether an article should be deleted, don't delete it. Nothing that comes even close to the borderline should be speedied. Take it to VfD or just ignore it. Everyking 03:51, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I just wanted to thank Tony for salvaging the Butt hook article, it's a topic very close to my heart. And I don't care if it's encyclopedic or not! What on earth was User:Master Thief Garrett thinking when he deleted it?!?!?!?!? --Scratch 14:48, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Dates

Wiki software renders dates put within linking brackets according the user's set preferences. For example:

• ] ] becomes 14 December 1999
• ] ] becomes December 14 1999

The two should be rendered identically. Note that for the Americans, even the proper comma is introduced.

On the other hand, if an extraneous space is inserted into the dates, as User:Jtdirl has been doing with articles such as George VI of the United Kingdom, they force a literal rendering of the date:

• ] ] - 14 December 1999
• ] ] - December 14 1999

User:Jtdirl has been doing this deliberately, using the first format, and is reverting any changes to put them in line with standard practice, even leaving an angry message with me calling such changes "vandalism". Other than forcing 'everyone to use a his personal date system, regardless of their personal preference settings, I don't see the point of this, nor do I see how the normal formats can be considered "vandalism" of any stripe. any opinions? --Calton | Talk 04:08, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

It seems, at first glance, as though we may agree for the first time ever. Everyking 04:21, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm more concerned about the astonishing lack of civility in this WP:LAME-worthy little war. Particularly in his role as admin, Jtdirl should exercise more care in throwing around accusations of vandalism. I'm willing to assume good faith and believe that Jtdirl inadvertently introduced (and reintroduced) the spaces in the date links because he wasn't careful about which version of the article he reverted to. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 16:44, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Votes for deletion/Anti-Semitism in Poland

This vote was closed, stating that the result was "keep the re-write" I dispute this, as does at least one other. By my own count -

Votes before pointing out/making the re-write

• Keep x 12
• Delete x 13
• Merge x 6

Votes after pointing out the re-write

• Delete x 13
• Keep x 4
• Merge x 2

Total votes

• Delete x 26
• Keep x 16
• Merge x 8

By no stretch of the imagination is 26:16 votes a majority for the 16 rather than the 26. It is my impression that the admin closing it was extremely partisan. I would like the VFD investigated for whether this was the correct result. ~~~~ 12:35, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

A merge vote counts as a keep, as it is a vote to preserve at least some of the content. Moreover if any of the content is merged the page must be kept for GFDL reasons. The deletion process is clear that a merge vote is a form of keep. Also VfD does not work by majority but rather by consensus, personally I doubt there is consensus to delete anything that gets 16 keep votes. - SimonP 17:06, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

The only occasion Simon's statement isn't true would be one of the rare occasions when there are so many votes that the 16 are not significant (e.g. 50 delete 16 keep would most likely get deleted). Thryduulf 17:23, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

In which case :

Votes before pointing out/making the re-write

• Keep x 18
• Delete x 13

Votes after pointing out the re-write

• Delete x 13
• Keep x 6

Total votes

• Delete x 26
• Keep x 24

Before the rewrite there was no consensus (18:13 is 58% vs 42%). After the re-write was pointed out, the votes are vast majority to delete. The overall result is still delete, although overall, there is not enough margin for this to be considered consensus. But it is certainly not keep. ~~~~ 17:27, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

• Unless people change their votes you can only count what they first said
• 13-6 is not consensus to delete.
• The page was deleted by User:ABCD. Guettarda 17:31, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
• The page was then undeleted by myself, and the debate reclosed as no consensus – ABCD✉ 17:59, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Should the undeletion not have gone to VfU first, rather than simply being undeleted and winding up with a VfU-like discussion here? -Splash 18:03, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
    • NB. I only say this because of the controversial nature of how to interpret the votes and the fact that 13/19 is, if barely, the 2/3 consensus normally needed. Obviously, 26-24 is a no-consensus that should be immediately undeleted. -Splash 18:07, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
    • Normally, it prob. would go to VfU, but, I feel that I should be able to undo a mistake I may have made in the process, which is what I did – ABCD✉ 18:18, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
      • Oh yeah, sorry. Not paying proper attention. -Splash 18:26, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I am confused - 13/19? Where do those numbers come from - they don't resemble the numbers posted here already. Even so - 13-19 is 60-40, nowhere near consensus. Anyway, I thought consensus was >75%. Guettarda 18:13, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant 13 out of 19 (=13+6 after rewrite). And no, VfD consensus is usually, but not always, 2/3 or more, as described loosely WP:DP. -Splash 18:26, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

• There is no consensus to delete the article. However, given the amount of 'delete' or 'merge' votes, it sounds like a good idea to do something with the article - copyediting, rewriting, merging and discussing on the talk page are all good possibilities. None of those requires any kind of vote, just be WP:BOLD.
• To answer Guettarda's question, VFD consensus is up to the discretion of the closing admin. It is generally agreed upon to lie between 67% and 75%, but can differ depending on vote comments, alleged sockpuppetry, changes to the article halfway past, etc. It's an art rather than a science. Radiant_>|< 23:12, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

• • 13 out of 19 is 68% (which lies between 67% and 75%) ~~~~ 00:20, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
    • Yes, but 26 out of 50 is not. You're jumping to the conclusion that the older votes must all be discounted, and that is a rather unlikely assumption. Radiant_>|< 07:55, July 24, 2005 (UTC)
      • As I said before - no consensus, not a consensus to keep. ~~~~ 17:42, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
        • Either results in a keep. What are you arguing about? ] 17:44, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

• Please, read the discussion at VfD page carefully. The article was created by an anon as extremely POV. Therefore all votes to merge meant to delete the article but not to abandon topics related to anti-Semitism in Poland. All the topics already exist in much expanded form in articles like History of the Jews in Poland and Anti-Semitism There are 28 votes to delete. 8 to merge, what in this case mean not to keep a separate article under this name, so should be treated as delete as well. 16 votes to keep. Over 69% of people didn’t want to keep the article. The article even now, after some cleaning is still very POV and offensive. It should be deleted. If you think there is anything in the article, what is lacking in the two others and should be merged, please, point it out, otherwise delete the article. --SylwiaS 18:53, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Good. Since the content seems to be a subset of Anti-Semitism, I'm trying to merge it there. Hopefully this will end the discussion as the spirit of the discussion was to merge anyway. Most of those who voted "delete" did so because they did not consider anything there being worth merging. I second that but here you go. --Wojsyl 20:27, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

When delete votes means to keep

Tabulation of vote results Misplaced Pages:Votes for deletion/Anti-Semitism in Poland by admins User:ABCD, User:Woohookitty have exposed the weakness of the VfD process. IMO, the process, designed to weed out garbage, has failed while dealing with a legitimate topic by leaving too much room for personal interpretations of the VfD rules, especially while counting the Merge votes. The intention of majority voters casting Merge vote was clearly defined as to incorporate the article’s material with the existing History of the Jews in Poland and Anti-Semitism thus deleting article in question. Yet, in the Orwellian (George Orwell) tradition, admins have tabulated their votes as Keep. Additionally, article’s subject has a significant presence in Anti-Semitism under Anti-Semitism#Anti-Semitism_in_Poland_until_Partitions (1,841 words as of 7/24/05) and Anti-Semitism#Poland (308 words as of 7/24/05) subsections as well as in History of the Jews in Poland. What is a purpose of creating a redundant, and in this case, POV’ed version of this content? User:Piotrus, in his vote, has proposed splitting the content of Anti-Semitism into Anti-Semitism+specific country articles. However, his proposal has not gained support neither from the voters nor editors of Anti-Semitism (see: Talk:Anti-Semitism).

Furthermore, 4 votes by Misplaced Pages:Sock puppet and users with a minimal contributions to the English wiki should have been nullified according to Misplaced Pages:Deletion policy and a precedence of the Talk:Gdansk/Vote (when votes from users with less than 20 contribution were invalidated).

Following my rationale, the results of the voting has been the following:

• Keep (14): 1. TheUnforgiven, 2. mysekurity, 3. Splash, 4. Harmil, 5. Xoloz, 6. Deror, 7. Grue, 8. Briangotts, 9. Kloniumus, 10. Falphin, 11. TheCoffee, 12. GabrielF, 13. wayland, 14. Goodoldpolonius2

• Delete (28): 1. Halibutt, 2. Balcer, 3. Space Cadet, 4. jamesgibbon, 5. Ttyre, 6. SylwiaS, 7. JamesBurns, 8. Thorsten1, 9. Radiant, 10. mikka, 11. Tomer, 12. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus, 13. Akumiszcza, 14. Ttyre, 15. Irishpunktom, 16. Pibwl, 17. Forseti, 18. A.J., 19. Molobo, 20. Cautious, 21. Wojsyl, 22. Taw, 23. Tirid Tirid, 24. Schwartz und Weiss, 25. Rubezahl, 26. V1, 27. logologist, 28. rafikk

• Merge and redirect (7) (6 to merge with History of the Jews in Poland): 1. Pburka, 2. brenneman, 3. Avihu, 4. Chris 73, 5. Pavel Vozenilek, 6. Kpalion, 7. mikka

• Invalidated votes (4): 1. 208.54.14.65, 9 contributions including 3 for VfD, 2. Signature unprintable, no other contributions, 3. Gilgamesh he, low contributions, 4. Hbk3, sock puppet - no other contributions

Combining the Delete with Merge votes gives 35 vs. 14 to Keep a 72% vs. 28% majority - clear Consensus to delete.

For the future votes, I propose to include wiki’s VfD definition of a Merge vote and eligible voters rule to be included within the header of VfD voting pages. Otherwise, the process might create, like in this case, a number of disenfranchised voters questioning both the purpose and a large margin of voting interpretations by admins. --Ttyre 17:24, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

• Personally, I wouldn't have combined anything. A vote to delete is different than a vote to merge (which, as was pointed out, is more like a keep than a delete). In that case, you then have 28 to delete vs 14 to keep vs 8 to merge. No consensus. --Kbdank71 17:57, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

• Combining point has been made by User:Splash in the discussion above. Without Merge, Delete vs. Keep voting is 28 vs. 14 - a 2/3 majority to Delete. Do you think a re-vote with only Keep and Delete options or asking Merge voters to decide between these two options would be appropriate? --Ttyre 18:13, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

• Why must the merge votes either be combined or not count? Why can't there be three major points of view? Sometimes, there is no consensus. --Kbdank71 18:35, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

• merge means keep. No discussion! See Misplaced Pages:Guide to Votes for deletion#Voting shorthands : "Merge to Example" is a shorthand for "Keep and merge the content into Example, leaving a redirect afterwards". And merge and delete is considered Incompatible vote Misplaced Pages:Guide to Votes for deletion#Incompatible votes. -- Cate 18:49, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

• Thank you for pointing me to this Guide, yet this is not where the header on VfD pages links to (Misplaced Pages:Votes_for_deletion). It would be fair for the future voters to be directed to Misplaced Pages:Guide to Votes for deletion#Voting shorthands instead and be educated about WP-speak; don't you think so? --Ttyre 01:24, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

• IMO, VfD only has final say in the disposition of an article when the outcome is "delete". Consensus to delete requires just that (granted, the definition of consensus is pretty nebulous in practice), not just "more people wanted to delete than wanted any other option chosen". A consensus to delete is binding; the article is deleted and that's the end of it (barring the relatively rare VfU). Any other position is shorthand for "do not delete, and this is what I would like to see done with the material". Merges and redirects are actions that can be done and reverted by any editor; consensus for those actions can be established on VfD, but also on the Talk page, or anywhere else. If an admin closing a VfD interprets consensus to merge, as an admin s/he makes the call not to delete, and as an editor decides to merge it based on expressed consensus. I see here 28 "delete" and 21 "do something else"; looks like "no consensus to delete", and in fact no consensus to do anything else either. (I have no comment on the article itself.) Mindspillage (spill yours?) 19:01, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

It does appear the problem has been solved by a merger. I actually wanted to keep the rewritten version of the article, but definetly the older anon version was good only for delete, and good riddance to it. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 18:40, 25 July 2005 (UTC)