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Revision as of 02:35, 27 July 2005 editM Alan Kazlev (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users3,151 edits →Links: comments, and Neutrality Disputed← Previous edit Revision as of 05:07, 27 July 2005 edit undoAndries (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers27,090 edits →Neutrality DisputedNext edit →
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== Neutrality Disputed == == Neutrality Disputed ==
btw Willmcw, I've been informed that Andries is the "news, webmaster and contact" for the largest Anti-Sai Baba Site on the internet, hetnet.nl/~exbaba If this is true, letting him determine or influence policy and content on a page on Sai Baba is like letting a ] determine how a wiki page on ] should read! I checked the history of the article, and have found repeated entries by Andries. This means that the neutrality of this article is seriously in doubt. I'm sure that Andries is an excellent Wikipedian in all other respects, but here we have a very clear POV conflict (i.e. can one write from an NPOV perspective about something that one feels so strongly, passionately, and onesidely a POV? ) Compare the page on Sai Baba with the wiki page on the ''equally'' controversial guru ] which is much more positive towards him ] 02:35, 27 July 2005 (UTC) btw Willmcw, I've been informed that Andries is the "news, webmaster and contact" for the largest Anti-Sai Baba Site on the internet, hetnet.nl/~exbaba If this is true, letting him determine or influence policy and content on a page on Sai Baba is like letting a ] determine how a wiki page on ] should read! I checked the history of the article, and have found repeated entries by Andries. This means that the neutrality of this article is seriously in doubt. I'm sure that Andries is an excellent Wikipedian in all other respects, but here we have a very clear POV conflict (i.e. can one write from an NPOV perspective about something that one feels so strongly, passionately, and onesidely a POV? ) Compare the page on Sai Baba with the wiki page on the ''equally'' controversial guru ] which is much more positive towards him ] 02:35, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

:Alan, I really tried to do my best not to make this not into an expose article and to present all sides of the story. Here is my personal story if you are interested. ] 05:07, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Revision as of 05:07, 27 July 2005

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Talk:Sathya Sai Baba/archive1


moved comment

Moved from article by Willmcw 00:23, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC), who did not write it.

  • Steel, Brian "An interesting and serious attempt to present a balanced picture of SSB. However, this long article is a good illustration of the strengths and weaknesses of Wiki digests and of its philosophy of Free Content (allowing use by anyone and editing by anyone) since, although both 'sides' are represented in this case , some sections of the Wiki essay are in a constant state of flux as supporters and critics of SSB vie for supremacy for their point of view, with occasional injections of propaganda and malice."

saisathyasai.com

I added some relevant, additional links, and they were removed. I am the webmaster to SaiSathyaSai.com and considering that most of the Anti-Sai Sites listed are duplicates of each other (for example SaiGuru.net and the Hetnet.ExBaba sites) and considering that Brian Steel and Robert Priddy's sites are listed on these two sites (qualifying them as multiple links), I think I am perfectly entitled to provide a link specific section that discusses each these sites in depth. Why isn't this allowed?

- Joe Moreno 15 July 2005


You are referring to these two links:
I removed them for two reasons. First, we already have a link to http://www.saisathyasai.com/. On the home page of that link are links to the pages you added. There is no need to add more links to the same site. Second, they seemed to be deceptively labelled. -Willmcw 05:33, July 16, 2005 (UTC)

Willmcw, WHY then do you allow the "hetnet.exbaba" site and the "saiguru.net" site when they are mirror sites to each other? The "hetnet.exbaba" site has duplicated all of Brian Steel and Robert Priddy's articles on their site. So why do you allow these sites when one link would suffice to the "hetnet.exbaba" site? "chello.no" (Priddy's site), "saiguru.net" and "hetnet.exbaba" all list multiple links under "Websites of critical former followers, skeptics and other critics" and "Media Articles". Why are they allowed to do this when one link would suffice?

It is clear that some sort of bias is going on. Am I allowed to post multiple links from my one site on other categories as well? Or is that reserved for Anti-Sai sites only? I think we would all like to clearly know what the policy is for posting links on this site.

Sincerely,

- Joe Moreno

I'll take a look at the links you mention. If they truly mirror each other then there is no reason to have both. Our policy is here: wikipedia:external links. Note that this article already has more links than most, so adding more is not attractive. Cheers, -Willmcw 06:16, July 16, 2005 (UTC)
Do you mean these two sites?
I don't see any resemblance between them. -Willmcw 07:32, July 16, 2005 (UTC)


Willmcw, yes, those are the two sites I am talking about. If you look at my SaiGuru.net Deception page, I provide a complete list to ALL of SaiGuru.net's links. 98% of them are an EXACT duplicate from ExBaba.com. The remaining 2% are outdated articles or were cut and pasted from a newspaper, etc. Click the "articles", "news", "media", "experiences", "sai org" and "conclusions" links, in the menu, to view the comparisons. Robert Priddy has several sites: http://home.chello.no/~reirob/ and http://home.no.net/anir/Sai/.

Thanks,

-Joe

Joe, I think there are several reason why your website deserves only one link, if it deserve to be listed at all. I doubt if it deserves to be listed here because of your intellectual dishonesty, your shameless defamation, libel and ad hominem attacks on the critics of SSB. The reasons why it deserves only one link are as follows.
  1. There are already many external links than recommended for Misplaced Pages.
  2. Your website was only writtenb by one author, i.e. Gerald Joe Moreno
  3. Other website like exbaba.com and saiguru.net consists of articles of many different authors, not only by critical former members but also other sources. Some of the articles on exbaba are of scholarly quality e.g. by Steel, Dadlani, Nagel, and Priddy. Some of Nagel's work was published in the official magazin of the Free University of Amsterdam about New religious movements, i.e. her 1994 article Sai Paradox. The exbaba website is huge but has only one link, so I think it is totally inappropriate and unfair to give your website more space than exbaba
  4. Your website shows great intellectual dishonesty and lack of reasonableness
  5. Your website contains ad hominem attacks on the critics of SSB.
Andries 16:45, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Andries, I think anyone with any semblence of fairness can see that my articles are not any of the things that you ascribe to them. I can back up ALL of my points of contention with screen captures, links and caches. I think anyone who views my Affidavits page can see, first-hand, the kind of person you are and the kind of bias you have. And I will note that in the 9 months my site has been online, you have not come forward with even ONE single article that factually discredits ANY of my articles. So if you want to talk about ad hominem attacks, look in the mirror. And the proof that this site is biased is clearly shown when Reinier is allowed to post his site TWICE (you providing a link to his lamentable attacks against me) but I am NOT allowed to post my link in reply. So if you want to talk about dishonesty and deceit, this site reeks of it. Why is Reinier allowed to post his site and a second link about me, but I am NOT allowed to post my site and a second link about him? I think everyone can see what kind of people run this site and I honestly don't expect these comments to be allowed to stay here. Again, I have nothing to fear and I have nothing to suppress. Apparently, you do.

-Joe Moreno

Can you please post the specific links that you are referring to? It's hard to know which ones you mean. Thanks, -Willmcw 21:02, July 17, 2005 (UTC)
Joe, I may overlook something, but I see only one link, not two, to Reinier's reply to you. Andries 21:33, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Under: "Websites of critical former followers, skeptics and other critics", there is a Main Link to Reiniers hetnet site.

Andries posted a Second Link (from the hetnet site) under: "Rebuttals and Surrebuttals of criticisms" named: "Reinier van der Sandt answers Gerald Joe Moreno".

My Main Link is posted under: "Rebuttals and Surrebuttals of criticisms".

In response to Reiniers page against me, I posted my Second Link and it was deleted. Now if Reinier's site can post a Main Link to his site and a Second Link to his page about me, why can't I post my Main Link and a Second Link about Reinier?

Furthermore, there are multiple links from the hetnet domain (Reinier's site) also posted under "Media Articles". However, when it comes to me, "all of sudden", only ONE link is allowed. If you want to set the standard, it should be applied equally.

So if I cannot post more than one link to my site, then the same should be applied to the hetnet site. Fair is fair.

-Joe Moreno

Okay, here is the list of links that clearly shows the bias FOR Anti-Sai Sites (Pro-Sai sites are ONLY allowed to post ONE link, while Anti-Sai sites are allowed to post multiple links:

BRIAN STEEL: 4 LINKS:

REINIER VAN DER SANDT: 4 LINKS:

ROBERT PRIDDY: 3 LINKS:

SAIGURU.NET: MIRROR SITE TO EXBABA SITE: 4 LINKS:

SAISATHYASAI: MY SITE: 1 LINK:

LINK DELETED: Gerald Joe Moreno Answers Reineir Van Der Sandt

Any Questions?

-Joe Moreno

Links to 3rd party articles, like reprints of New York Times articles, are in a special category. You say that SAIGURU.NET is a mirror of EXBABA, and before you said it was a mirror of HETNET, but I didn't see the duplications. Can you provide the links which show them to be mirrors? Thanks, -Willmcw 19:10, July 18, 2005 (UTC)

Willmcw, then how do you explain Brian Steel's links? They are NOT referenced to "third party articles".

And you have not answered why I am NOT allowed to post my rebuttal to Reinier's article (his article against me is not a "third party article".

Obviously, you have not researched ExBaba.com. http://www.exbaba.com/ is a frame site that opens up the http://home.hetnet.nl/~ex-baba/ site. They are exactly the same. Just view the source code for ExBaba.com. So when I refer to either one of these sites, they refer to the same thing.

I already provided you with the link that conclusively shows that SaiGuru.net is a mirror site to ExBaba.com (or, if you prefer, hetnet.nl/~ex-baba). Once again, Click Here to view the main page. Or, Click Here for the "Articles" category. I provide the link on SaiGuru.net and the duplicate link. Cut and paste them to compare.

-Joe Moreno

We don't have a link to ExBaba.com, so what does it matter if http://home.hetnet.nl/~ex-baba/ is a mirror of it? The http://www.saisathyasai.com may carry some of the same articles as http://home.hetnet.nl/~ex-baba/, but that does not make them mirrors unless all of the content is the same. I am sure that many of the "pro-Baba" sites carry the same articles. http://www.saiguru.net/english/ doesn't look like the other sites either. "Mirror" means exact copy. You haven't proven anything. -Willmcw 21:44, July 18, 2005 (UTC)


Okay Willmcw. Thank you for saying that. I am sure that since this is the case (with SaiGuru.net), I can post my articles on another domain and post a link to them. I'll just make sure the layout is different and add a few articles. That should level the playing field :)

Also, you did not respond about Brian Steel's articles. Why is he allowed to post all those links? I think we all would like to know. One link per site. Remember?

-Joe Moreno

Yes, once your articles are printed in the New York Times. Regarding Steel, I agree. I'll remove the extra links. -Willmcw 22:30, July 18, 2005 (UTC)
PS - both Steel and a pro-Baba site called Saibabalinks.org have additional links up in the "Books" section because they have bibliographies. -Willmcw 22:36, July 18, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Willcmw. But Brian's first bibliography page contained links to the other two pages. So all three links were not necessary. Also, Saibabalinks.org does not index their links like Misplaced Pages. People can (and have) posted multiple links on their site.

Sincerely,

Joe Moreno

Right, so I cut the three bibliograohy links down to one. I'm not sure I follow your point about Saibabalinks.org. Are you saying we should remove it? It seems to have substantive information. -Willmcw 23:09, July 18, 2005 (UTC)

No, I am not saying to remove it. I am saying on their site, they list links differently than Misplaced Pages. I am also uncertain why my link refuting Reinier's attacks keep disappearing. I cleared out my cache and refreshed my page and my link disappears. If this page is about Sathya Sai Baba, I think we need to maintain the focus and remove personal attacks that have nothing to do with Sathya Sai Baba. Reinier's attacks against me should not be placed on this page. I do not feel that my page should be placed here either. However, if Reinier's page about me is allowed to be placed on this site, I think mine should be allowed too. So something needs to be done about this. What are your thoughts, Willmcw?

-Joe Moreno

I still don't know what Saibabalinks.org has to so with this discussion. Are you saying it should stay or go, and why? If you want my overall opinion I think the entire "rebuttal and surrebuttal" section should be deleted. This page already has too many links. 20 is a large number, this page has more than 45. -Willmcw 04:07, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

~

Joe, you started making personal attacks on a variety of SSB critics on your website. This alone makes it highly questionable whether your website deserves to be listed here. As a response one of those critics (Reinier) made a website refuting your personal attacks on him. Listing the one without the other is unacceptable. Andries 04:55, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Willmcw, I was referring to your post-script when you said, "PS - both Steel and a pro-Baba site called Saibabalinks.org have additional links up in the 'Books' section because they have bibliographies". Maybe I misunderstood your post. I feel the link should STAY. It is one of the largest online resources for Sathya Sai Baba.

The section you referred to should be renamed "Rebuttals". Because Ram Das Awle, The Sai Critic and my site, SaiSathyaSai.com, are all unique sites with unique views that are specific to "Rebuttals". Both Anti and Pro Sai Sites tend to repeat the same information over and over. Consequently, I feel that these three sites are unique in content and perspective and should be kept. My site is the ONLY systematized site that addresses the "other side" to the Sathya Sai Baba Debate. It would be unfair to remove it.

There are two links to the RadioSai site. The main RadioSai link should replace the other 2 links: The two RadioSai Links are:

And should, in my opinion, be replaced by:

The other Sathya Sai Baba links are relevant.

There are several links that are included in Anti-Sai sites that are referenced under different sites. For example, on the hetnet.nl/~exbaba site Located Here, is a duplicate to Guru, Miracle Worker, Religious Founder: Sathya Sai Baba long article by Dr. Reinhart Hummel. This link, in my view, should be removed.

It seems to me that only main domain sites, or main links to main index pages should be allowed. Otherwise, things will degenerate into innumerable links.

This is my opinion and I think it is the only fair way for everyone to have their fair share in expressing their viewpoints. After all, I have links to refute just about every Anti-Sai link listed here. If you allow it with other sites, you are going to have to allow it with mine. If I am ONLY allowed to post my main index domain, which contains innumerable links, to innumerable topics and authors, the SAME standard must be applied to ALL sites. No exceptions.

Andries: Once again, it is clear you have not properly informed yourself about the "personal attacks" between me and Reinier. First of all, Reinier started attacking me 4 and half months BEFORE I even wrote one word about him. So get some facts right. Secondly, ALL of my pages about Anti-Sai Activists are backed up with screen captures, links, emails and caches. Consequently, your perception of "personal attacks" is biased. If you feel that Reinier is allowed to post his pages against me, I am entitled to post mine. It appears you have an agenda of suppression. If my "personal attacks" are unsubstantiated, you should allow the general public to make up their own minds, instead of YOU trying to make it up for them by trying to have my site removed. Enough said.

~Joe Moreno

The well written article by Hummel http://www.dci.dk/?artikel=572&emne=Sai%20Baba Guru, Miracle Worker, Religious Founder: SSB] is written indepdently of what ex-devotees did on a different website. I did not remove your website, only I oppose that your website gets more space than other websites. Andries 05:09, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

And I oppose that Anti-Sai Sites get more space than other websites. And my Reinier Pages are now linked from another domain. So what is the problem now?

~Joe Moreno

Joe, thanks for explaining your point about Saibabalinks.org. But you're not going to negotiate a second link to your website. I am inclined to remove the entire section, so don't push your luck. As I mentioned before, this page alreay has too many link. I'd far sooner see more deleted than added. How about ten each, pro and con? -Willmcw 05:17, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

Willmcw, it is not a second link to my http://www.saisathyasai.com website. It is my personal response listed on vishvarupa.com. If Reinier can do it, so can I. Or are you taking sides?

Reinier is the webmaster to the hetnet.nl/~exbaba site and listed a SECOND link from home.hetnet.nl/~r.v.d.sandt/

Since you ALLOW this, then you MUST allow me to post my saisathyasai.com and a SECOND link from vishvarupa.com/~r.v.d.sandt/ site.

And if my site is removed. I will take this issue to someone above you.

If you remove the section, my link needs to be put into another section. Otherwise, this site will be clearly shown to be dominated by Anti-Sai Activists who have an agenda of suppression. One way or another, the truth of this matter will be made known.

~Joe Moreno

exbaba is not Reinier's website: it is the website of the Dutch former followers, incl. me. He has not the final authority about the contents. His website in which he answers you is his website. Andries 06:30, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Another evaluation of this article for the interested reader

Apart from the evaluation by Brian Steel hereabove, there is another evaluation of this article

"This article is licensed under the GNU Free Documentation License. It uses material from the Misplaced Pages article "Sathya Sai Baba". This entry is from Misplaced Pages, the leading user-contributed encyclopedia. It may not have been reviewed by professional editors (see full disclaimer). This article has been edited due to Anti-SSB Activists who refuse to allow editing to the Original Misplaced Pages article for Sathya Sai Baba."
from saisathyasai.com/baba/Ex-Baba.com/sathya-sai.html Please do not link to this article because it contains slanderous ad hominem attacks on the critics of SSB.

Andries 22:10, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Rebuttals and Surrebuttals of criticisms

I've deleted the section of the external links labelled "Rebuttals and Surrebuttals of criticisms". They are just websites conducting sometimes-ad hominem attacks on each other that do not help readers understand Sathya Sai Baba, the topic of our article. Given the very large number of links already in this article, whoever would like to add these or others needs to make a compelling arguement. -Willmcw 22:56, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

Willmcw, first of all, it is clear you did not read my site. My site addresses ALL of the articles dispersed against Sathya Sai Baba. There are a few pages devoted to the character (or lack thereof) of Anti-Sai Activists, which the general public is perfectly entitled to know about. This information is factual and referenced.

The very same thing is done on the hetnet.nl/~exbaba site (look in their letters section). It is clear you are biased and you can be certain that I will be creating a new page about this bias on the Misplaced Pages article for Sathya Sai Baba. The overwhelming majority of my site has nothing to do with "ad hominem" attacks. It is clear that you have a bias against those directly challenge Anti-SSB activists. I wonder why?

Whose permission did you get to delete that section? It appears that you were thinking of deleting the section, but no one came to any consensus. You acted without having any sort of open discussion. You deleted a relevant section that applies to Sathya Sai Baba. Are you talking to someone "behind the scenes"? The Rebuttals section should have stayed. It was Andries to changed that section by putting an irrelevant link there and changing the category title. Since my site is specific to the claims made by Anti-Sai Activists, for whom this site has devoted an entire section, I am entitled to post my site that gives pertinent information about their claims.

I am going to request arbitration.

~Joe Moreno

We can put one link to one of your pages among the "pro"-sites section we already have. Which link do you prefer? Probably a home page would be best. Thanks, -Willmcw 06:43, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

My Arbitration Request:

I have a kind request. There is a problem on the Misplaced Pages Article For Sathya Sai Baba (SSB).

This article has links to both Pro and Anti SSB articles. However, my link is NOT being allowed. There was a section entitled "Rebuttals" that had only three links, including my site (SaiSathyaSai.com).

My site is the ONLY systematized site that specifically addresses (in my opinion) unsubstantiated and serious claims made on Anti-SSB sites. Since an entire section is devoted to Anti-SSB Sites, there should also be a Rebuttals section that provides information that happens to be 100% relevant to Sathya Sai Baba. Willmcw has gone to great extents to promote Anti-SSB sites and to remove sites that counter their claims. This is unfair and biased. It shouldn't be allowed. He removed the "Rebuttals" section without any open discussion. You can view the discussion here.

The current article for Sathya Sai Baba is, by no means, indicative of the majority opinion regarding SSB. The entire article is mottled with Anti-SSB remarks and links.

I believe that the Rebuttals section is relevant and the following three links should be reposted:

1) http://www.geocities.com/the_sai_critic/

2) http://www.saisathyasai.com/

3) http://www.saibaba-aclearview.com/

It is important to point out that NONE of the Pro-SSB links cited, provide any rebuttals to the Anti-SSB remarks and links. These three links are the ONLY ones that do.

Please tell me what I must do to have this situation resolved amicably and fairly.

Thank you.

Sincerely,

SSS108 04:40, 21 July 2005 (UTC) Joe Moreno


I'd like to add my complaint to Joe's. The link to my yahoogroup was removed without ANY discussion or consultation and I'm wondering WHY Willmcw is catering to the anti-Sai crowd who not only engage in ad hominem attacks on their sites but also quash rebuttals and free speech at EVERY turn and this site is a PERFECT example of it. In all actuality, the LAW is on OUR side in this issue. I'm wondering WHY you are showing preference to and allowing links to sites which spout totally unsubstantiated legal accusations with OBVIOUS ad hominem attacks and PROVEN lies (like exbaba.com) yet are totally biased in posting links to sites which dispute the allegations and additionally show LEGAL DOCUMENTATION which proves that some of the people leading the anti-Sai crusade have criminal or dubious backgrounds? In otherwords Willmcw, why is it perfectly ok for this group to disparage a highly revered spiritual leader and throw mud at him while not allowing any rebuttal or pertinent background info.? I'd like to know what planet you live on that unsubstantiated and HIGHLY suspicious legal allegations take precedence over documented LEGAL info? There have been numerous complaints on this board as to how the anti-Sais are deleting any postive background info. about Sai Baba. When I first came onto this board many months ago I complained about the way Andries controls the board like he thinks he owns it and now I see you have even deleted Joe Moreno's link too! When does this obvious anti-Sai Baba bias and disregard for First Amendment rights end, Willmcw? What you ought to do is rein in some of the people who have been monopolizing and obsessing over this board for way too long and give someone else a chance for once. We have all the documentation to show how dubious these allegations are and have ALWAYS provided links to the sites making the accusations. Now it's high time for you to do the same.

Lisa De Witt owner Persecutors_of_sathya_sai_baba Legal analysis and response to the allegations http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Persecutors_of_Sathya_Sai_Baba/?yguid=87369175

The First Amendment affects U.S. government bodies, not Misplaced Pages. I don't think that the Yahoogroups site is a good one for our readers because it is not publicly accessible. There is no compunction for us to proivide a perfectly fair assortment of weblinks. Our focus is on making our articles good and fair. This list of weblinks is already too long, we can toss them all if it brings editing peace. If there is something about the article itself that you'd like to discuss then I'm interested. -Willmcw 04:44, July 22, 2005 (UTC)


The advice I was given was to go ahead and edit the page and add my main link. Since I have not edited this page more than 3-4 times, I have re-added my link under "Other Articles And Websites". I also corrected the pearls link as it had a comma instead of a period in the URL. Since Willmcw's focus is on "fairness", I do not expect any further problems with my site listing.

Sincerely,

Joe Moreno

Misplaced Pages:no personal attacks. Continued personal attacks are grounds for banning. I previously suggested that you add one link. You're not being persecuted - we treat all external links as a secondary matter. -Willmcw 07:49, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

When you as a public entity discriminate against a person or group it does become a First Amendment issue, sir. You are allowing a certain group to dominate this site while censoring others who are attempting to give a certain viewpoint. My link was removed WITHOUT consultation or discussion. It is the only thing I have been able to get put on this site in a year as Andries rules the site like he owns it. I have been dealing with this group outside of wikipedia for three years and it is the same story. They will censor and delete any information which is inconvenient to their cause and they will harass anyone who dares to tell the truth. My yahoogroup is audited because people in Andries group continued to harass and had to be booted. Anyone who can act like an adult can join my group.

There are documented wanted criminals in this group. For example, you have a link to apologeticsindex.org in this article. The owner of that site, Anton Hein, is wanted in California. He served six months in jail for lewd act upon a child and then absconded to the Netherlands. There is a warrant for his arrest on the San Diego County Sheriff's Dept. website. Apparently, a wanted felon is allowed to post his link but I am not.

As far as personal attacks, why is it ok for Andries to accuse Joe Moreno of ad hominem attacks when the anti-Sai sites are full of them? This personal attack against Joe Moreno seems to go totally unnoticed. Andries Dagneaux who is totally biased has no right to judge whether Moreno's site should be included in this section. The exbaba group blocked Joe's site from being able to access them just because he started refuting the allegations and they couldn't stand the competition. Andries is not the owner of wikipedia but apparently he thinks he is. When are you going to rein him in and quit enabling his very biased and obnoxious behavior toward those he disagrees with? Many people have complained about this and NOTHING has been done about it since I was here last year.

That's all I have to say for now.

Lisa De Witt


It isn't up to us to evaluate criminal complaints against webmasters, much less whatver cross allegations are going back and forth between you. We are here to write articles for an encyclopedia. External links don't add anything directly to our articles. See wikipedia:external links. -Willmcw 16:51, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Willmcw, can you tell me why Reinier's site is being allowed to be listed again? What is its relevance to Sathya Sai Baba? 98% of my site has nothing to do with Reinier. Since his site has nothing to do with Sathya Sai Baba, but is specifically his attacks against me, why it it being allowed on this site? If this link is allowed, I will have no choice but to post my rebuttal page at: http://www.vishvarupa.com/~r.v.d.sandt/reinier-van-der-sandt.html Funny how Andries has deleted several links due to "relevance", but includes this one that is totally irrelevant.

SSS108 20:48, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I'll tell you what I think. I think we should remove all of the links except for one official link to http://www.sathyasai.org/. All of this squabbing over weblinks is counterproductive. The article is too long already. The links section is much too long and adds nothing to the article. Unless folks can give me a persuasive reason to keep them, I'm cutting out the whole list. -Willmcw 21:02, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Willmcw, if you simply focused on relevant links, we would not have this problem. Funny how you allow Andries to post irrelevant links. Reinier's page is about me. Not Sathya Sai Baba. 98% of my site has nothing to do with Reinier. It is not a Reinier site. My site is about Sathya Sai Baba and the ongoing public debate. If you were truly impartial, you would cut out irrelevant links. I can only wonder why you would rather cut out all links instead of cut out ones that are not pertinent to this article. If you cut out all links, the focus would shift to content. And then there would be wars about justifying allegations and trying to back them up or reference them.

Remove Reiniers link or my rebuttal link is going up.

SSS108 21:22, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Any material that is needed to provide a comprehensive picture of Sathya Sai Baba should be in this article or another one on Misplaced Pages. Rebuttals and counter-rebuttals are of interest only to highly-engaged partisans. As I said before, I am inclined to remove all of the links, as they seem to only cause discord and linkspam. They are all available through Google searchs. -Willmcw 21:32, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

I added my rebuttal link. If you allow Reiniers, then mine should be allowed as well. Fair is fair. You should tell Andries that posting rebuttals and counter rebuttals is of interest to "highly-egaged partisans". He is the one who started it. I'm still amazed how you refuse to remove his irrelevant link and correct him. Kind of makes one wonder.

SSS108 04:27, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I see what is going on here. You remove the links, but you allow other links to Brian Steels site and the hetnet.nl/~exbaba site by trying to put them under "books" and other such categories. Once again showing the clear bias for Anti-Sai Sites that governs this site. This just confirmed it.

SSS108 04:33, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I've removed all of the links at the end. No information is lost, this is the same article we had yesterday. Now please stop complaining. -Willmcw 05:04, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

Willmcw, that does not solve the problem. If you allow Anti-Sai links, and allow Anti-Sai references, you should allow my site that addresses these Anti-Sai references. After all, I am entitled to post my link (I read the wikipedia link policy and it is applicable). This article LINKS TO Anti-Sai Sites (saiguru.net, hetnet.nl/~exbaba and brian steel's site) and discusses criminal allegations against Sathya Sai Baba. Since these serious allegations are not countered, I am entitled to provide a link that responds to these allegations. The only question is: Where does my link go now?

SSS108 06:05, 23 July 2005 (UTC)


I have removed all of the links from the bottom of the article. If there are any that I missed please give me the exact place in the article so I can find them. If you have something to add to this article, please write some text, not a weblink. You are not entitled to a link, no one is "entitled" to a link. Your actual contributions to this encyclopedia are welcome. Please read Misplaced Pages:five pillars and wikipedia:external links.


"On articles with multiple Points of View, a link to sites dedicated to each, with a detailed explanation of each link. The number of links dedicated to one POV should not overwhelm the number dedicated to any other. One should attempt to add comments to these links informing the reader of what their POV is."

WHERE is the link dedicated to the point of view that discusses the problems with criminal allegations made against Sathya Sai Baba by Anti-SSB Activists? My link is 100% relevant to the various points of views discussed in this article.

Now Willmcw, where is my link going to be placed?

SSS108 06:26, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

It was deleted becasue the editors couldn't agreee. If you would like to add content to the article please feel free. -Willmcw 16:38, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

I removed this text because it does not add anything tot he article, it's just a link.

If you would like to add a discussion of the various allegations then we can work with that. But no more links please. -Willmcw 17:03, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

Willmcw. Okay. So I am allowed to write a section under a sub-category of "Alternative Viewpoints" with no links? I would like to get this clear before I make my contribution so that there will no disagreements later.

There is another link that needs to be changed. Under "Media and Governments", "Ref 1" is a link to the SaiGuru.net site: 1. This link should be directed to original article located HERE

Thanks.

SSS108 17:56, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Add the content that you want and then we can discuss it, or post it here in case you want to discuss it first. Please make sure that you are familiar with our key policies, wikipedia:five pillars. Please note that the topic of this article is Sathya Sai Baba, so material that is not related to that topic is likely to be removed. (PS, I'll change the link). -Willmcw 18:19, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

Willmcw, here is my article. Of course, the references will be left out, but I am adding them here for others to independently verify. Many of the alternative viewpoints I make, are in response to the critical viewpoints made against SSB on this main article. So if their points are relevant and can be included, I don't see why mine can't. Please leave my syntax in tact. Thanks.

+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_

Serious allegations of sexual abuse, fraud and murder have surfaced against Sathya Sai Baba, on the internet, through various sites from skeptics and former devotees.

Contradictory testimonies, withheld information about alleged victims & ex-devotees and embellished theories about the June 6th 1993 police shootings are just a few of the main points of contention regarding the Sathya Sai Baba debate.

Although there is much debate regarding materializations, even former devotees continue to attest to Sathya Sai Baba's paranormal powers, including Robert Priddy who believes that Sai Baba has "extraordinary and positive powers", can materialize "apports" and is "extremely psychically sensitive" to his devotees.

ref 1 "extremely psychically sensitive"

ref 2 "extraordinary and positive powers"

ref 3 "apports"

Various arguments have been made against Sathya Sai Baba's translated discourses. It is argued, on one hand, that the discoursees are so heavily edited, they do not represent the Guru's actual words. On the other hand, however, when it comes to inconsistencies or factual errors, these same translations are cited as accurate and literal references to Sathya Sai Baba's fallibility.

ref Brian Steel

In the past 5 years, since these allegations have been made public, there have been no new reports of alleged sexual abuse, court cases or complaints (from alleged victims), fraud, murder, or anything else for that matter, filed against Sathya Sai Baba in an Indian Court of Law. Despite former devotees offering "world class legal resources" to alleged victims, not even one victim has come forward (in 5 years) to utilize these resources. This lends credence to the idea that the "amassed evidence", against Sathya Sai Baba, is either lacking or has being misrepresented.

ref 4 "world class legal resources"

SSS108 22:09, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for writing this. I notice you say, "here is my article." Please read the article that we already have. It already includes most of the things you have written. Thanks, -Willmcw 22:36, July 23, 2005 (UTC)
It is not true that there have been no new cases in the last 5 years. Mark Roche (name?) who appeared in the BBC documentary Secret Swami was new and even I testify of new cases, among others Edwin R. Andries 22:44, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
And also please do not insert the most extraordinary claims that some critical former followers make and then start to refute these extraordinary claims. This is a dishonest way of treating a subject that should not be used in Misplaced Pages. Andries 22:57, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Mark Roche's alleged abuse occurred many, many years ago. It did not happen in 2004. Get it right already, Andries. And Mark Roche has NEVER filed any court case against Sathya Sai Baba either. I said that no one has filed a court case for alleged sexual abuse in the last 5 years, despite be given the promise of "world class legal services". Andries, if you do not want people to refute the claims made on this article (and of course you don't) then you should remove them ;-)

Willmcw. Tell me where my points of contention have already included in this article? Perhaps the first paragraph, but what about the rest?

SSS108


If you REALLY want to be honest, you should NOT be including any criminal allegations that have NOT been vetted through a COURT of LAW. Otherwise, Willmcw is contradicting his statement that he dsoes NOT make legal judgements. His partisan actions on this board speak much to the contrary. There is absolutely NO proof that there are ANY affidavits. I have been asking for proof for THREE years now and have gotten nothing but the run around. I have seen absolutely NO proof Hari Sampath EVER had a supreme court case. It is NOT listed on the supreme court site of India and I can find NOT one CREDIBLE witness who has seen the paperwork. Michelle Goldberg NEVER saw any paperwork, she took the "word" of another journalist and can't even remember his name! I turned info over to Illinois police in Jan or Feb of 2003 that Hari Sampath was wanted in India. Shortly after that he disappeared from sight and his site went down. Considering that Hari Sampath was a main muckraker I think we are owed some proof as to his whereabouts.

Mark Roche claims he was sexually abused in 1976 at approx. 25 yo but remained a devotee until 1994. Suddenly, at the age of fifty-something, he appears out of "nowhere" for the documentary claiming he was molested almost thirty years ago. The statute of linmitations for sex crimes in the U.S. is 7 years. Nothing like holding someone hostage for years, eh Will? Whatever happened to the presumption of innocence? I wonder if you would treat the Pope or Jesus the same way.

Maybe we should just put "by Andries Dagneaux" under the title to the article. Then everyone will at least know who wrote it. BTW, I have the name and address to the owner of Misplaced Pages. I'm sure you can connect the dots as to how it will be used.

Lisa De Witt

I removed one paragraph by anon because it was redundant info: it has already been discussed in the article. Andries 07:47, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Lisa De Witt said, I wonder if you would treat the Pope or Jesus the same way.
You'd be surprised. See also Roman Catholic Church sex abuse scandal or Mother Theresa for examples of allegations against other religious leaders. -Willmcw 08:42, July 24, 2005 (UTC)


Baloney, you aren't even the moderator there and I'm talking about YOU and your blatantly obvious bias. And no one in the "mainstream media" has EVER brought up the possibilty that the Pope covered up the abuse of children in the Catholic church. It pays to be white. If you claim to be so "fair" why don't you give Joe control over editing for awhile instead of letting Andries control all the Sai Baba articles? Your agenda is pretty obvious. Did they teach you this kind of discrimination at Carnegie-Mellon? Between Joe and I we have tried to make NUMEROUS additions to this site and all we've gotten is hogwash. And we are NOT the only ones who have complained. You're not even coming close to being objective. I guess this is the only "job" Andries can get...lol. He's so obsessed with trying to act like a cult expert he can't even tell the truth anymore. He's become what he abhores most. A cult-like automaton who refuses to see the truth for what it is and even lies now to cover up for his buddies. Alaya Rahm and two other accusers claimed to anti-Sais that Baba's penis "morphed" into a vagina. Yet the anti-Sais claim Sai Baba is a fraud! That's some "sound" reasoning from the "great brains" in the anti-Sai crowd (including the atheists like Premanand)! Not hard to see why SO MANY OF THESE PEOPLE HAVE documented PSYCHIATRIC HISTORIES. Tal Brooke scrubbed (in later additions) the part written in his 1976 addition of Lord of the Air about the fact that he was seeing a psychiatrist in 1964 when he dropped out of his first year of college. He also failed to inform the audience that his father was the Director of Media Content for the U.S. Information Agency (aka Propaganda Minister for CIA), appointed by Edgar R. Murrow in 1961 when racism was rampant and covert activites were being used to smear and neutralize blacks who were deemed to be a threat to the white man's superiority. Not much has changed since then except the packaging. And in case you are wondering, I am a white Aryan of German descent so NO I am not colored. I am an honest person who sees discrimination for what it is and will NOT tolerate it in ANY form. If EVER there was a case that STUNK of discrimination, this is IT. You won't get away with it. I know the power of truth and I WILL use it.

Lisa De Witt

Your implied threats are not welcome. I just looked at the history and I don't see any contributions from user:SSS108 or user:Freelanceresearch. I don't know what IPs you folks have used so I can't tell what your contributions have been. I'm only familiar with the attempts to add your websites. Joe says that he added, via an IP, the text below. So far neither he nor you have shown any willingness to resolve the problem. Misplaced Pages is a collaboration. Please don't complain about it, make it better. -Willmcw 01:47, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

New text

  • 1. There are also critics who allege that he has sexual relations with young men and boys among his followers, and has done so for more than forty years. No Indian court of law has accepted any case on sexual abuse by Baba. Nor have any of the alleged victims filed charges in the appropriate district. This may be due to the perceived status of the Baba as being too powerful, with supporters throughout the High Courts and the judiciary in India. Besides there is a testimony by Jens Senthi who claimed to have been sexually abused by the Baba but who was treated as a criminal by the Puttaparthi police. Supporters of Baba say the allegations are baseless rumors created with the malicious intention of sabotaging the guru's work. (this is text which was already there)
  • 2. Those skeptical of the claims made by ex-devotees, critics and alleged victims of Sathya Sai Baba, continually ask that the "weighty evidence", "amassed proof" and "scores to hundreds of affidavits" be made public or taken to a Court of Law in India. To date, not even one alleged victim has, first-hand, filed either a complaint or a court case against the Guru in India. Despite former devotees offering "world class legal resources" to alleged victims, not even one victim has come forward to utilize these resources. This lends credence to the idea that the "amassed evidence", against Sathya Sai Baba, is either lacking or has being willfully misrepresented. (this is text that was added to a different place)

Can we consolidate these two? -Willmcw 10:47, July 24, 2005 (UTC)

Willmcw, I already know that since you and Andries are maintaining soviet-style control over this site, nothing I say is going to meet the strict standards of YOUR points of view. My point of view will never get due justice. That is 100% obvious. Which is okay, I have it all screen captured and am currently making a page about it, along with this conversation. I would like to make one more point. This page does not belong to you, nor does it belong to Andries. It is supposed to belong to the general public. I do not have to ask your permission to edit it. I only have done so because I wanted to make my submission in a more appropriate way. If this was a Christian Site, one can be certain that Anti-Christians would never be allowed to modify it. The Anti-Sai point of view, that is being propagated on this page, does NOT reflect the majority opinion regarding Sai Baba. It reflects an extreme minority.

The Anti-Sai allegations are made despite NO court cases EVER being filed, in a court of law, in India. Not even one alleged victim has utilized FREE, "world class legal resources". Not even ONE single affidavit has ever been made public. The petition signatures have NEVER been independently verified. Numerous references are made to anonymous sources or people using a first name or a pseudonym. Anti-Sai's have slandered Sathya Sai Baba in the most vile way, yet whenever anyone questions them, they are "all of a sudden" beyond reproach. It is of little wonder that no one has EVEN TRIED to file a court case, first-hand, against Sathya Sai Baba, in India. All of this points to a Cultish, Secretive, Hate-Group, that tries to mislead the general public with propaganda. This site is proof. No documents. No affidits. No court cases. No first-hand complaints filed in India. No independent agencies verifying their alleged data. No nothing!

The fact that this page is biased is clearly shown when Andries, who is the webmaster and contact for the largest Anti-Sai Site on the internet, is being allowed to add/delete/edit as HE chooses with impunity. And you, Willmcw, allow this! So you two can continue to do as you choose. This is my last post on this site. But this issue is far from over. Which will me made known, to all, very soon.

SSS108 16:14, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

No, the soviets used a totally different style to control their wikis. ;) What's the problem? You've made only one attempt to add useful text to the article, and I brought it to the talk page because it overlaps existing text. Once we resolve the overlaps then we'll have text that includes the points you think should be raised. Certainly this is not a Christian site, nor a Sathya Sai site either. We're devoted to portraying all significant points of view in a neutral manner. Yes, that includes the pro- and anti- sides. Cheers, -Willmcw 22:25, July 24, 2005 (UTC)
SSS108/Joe, as Willmcw wrote, wikipedia depends on compromise and you need time to get it included what you want. I really tried my best to make the SSB articles in Misplaced Pages to be balanced and tried to incorporate the view points and rebuttals of followers. If had I wanted to make Misplaced Pages an expose website then I could have listed e.g. all the many documented contradictions in SSB's teachings. Well, may be I will do it anyway. Andries 06:32, 25 July 2005 (UTC)


Baloney, you deleted Joe's WHOLE submission as soon as he put it up so stop lying. We have the screen capture of your deletion and comment for the whole world to see. You didn't even TRY to discuss it with him and you KNOW it. You've attacked ANYONE who comes in here who disagrees with you. You patronized me with your garbage about being "sincere but brainwashed". The only ones who are brainwashed are you and your cadre of fools who can't stop contradicting yourselves about Sai Baba's powers. You've become a power-hungry, obsessive control-freak who needs to grow up and get a life. You're controlling several Sai Baba articles on this site like you own them. I know how to take care of the situation and I will.

The reason you don't see any contributions is because Andries deleted them all last year when I was here, Will. I know what I wrote and it was ALL deleted last year by Andries. I have a copy of the page with MY contributions to prove it. In addition, it was the exact same story where Andries does NOT discuss, he just deletes.

http://www.saisathyasai.com/baba/Ex-Baba.com/sathya-sai-baba-wikipedia-bias.html

Lisa De Witt

Please, everybody, refrain from making negative personal remarks. I know that passions are high but let's remember that this is an encyclopedia project. We should focus on the text, not each other. If information is wrong then say, "this information is wrong". Don't say, "you're a brainwashed liar" or "you're delusional", or any other comment on the other editors.
LDW - The way that the system works here is that every edit is logged into the history (see here). When I say "I can't see your edits" what I mean is that I'm not sure which edits in the history list are yours. However we can't change the past (or the edit history). I suggest that we move forward by identifying specific problems and fixing them. We started to work on merging two paragraphs about the lack of criminal charges, etc. Can we continue? -Willmcw 10:16, July 25, 2005 (UTC)


Links

Why have the links (other than to the official Sai Baba site) been removed from the page? There should be a good mix of pro- (both official and unofficial), anti- and (if there are any) neutral, links. M Alan Kazlev 05:15, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

There developed a situation where webmasters were demanding, tit for tat, links to rebuttals of each others websites. The previous list had grown to over 45 links. In general, Misplaced Pages articles should contain the beasic compreheisive information about their subject. I think this one does. If you'd like to review the discussion of the links, start at the top of the page..... -Willmcw 18:57, July 26, 2005 (UTC)
Hmm, right. Yes, this is very off-putting
I can see you had no choice but to remove all the links, because otherwise this ugliness and acrinomy would drag on and on (as i have witnessed it in my (admnittdely rather superficial) investigations of the pro- vs anti-SSB factions
However it is a shame that there isn't a link to Joe's site (if one were including some pro- and anti- links) because I have found the material on his website to be very interesting, even if i take issue with certain details of content and approach M Alan Kazlev 02:35, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Neutrality Disputed

btw Willmcw, I've been informed that Andries is the "news, webmaster and contact" for the largest Anti-Sai Baba Site on the internet, hetnet.nl/~exbaba If this is true, letting him determine or influence policy and content on a page on Sai Baba is like letting a creationist determine how a wiki page on Darwinism should read! I checked the history of the article, and have found repeated entries by Andries. This means that the neutrality of this article is seriously in doubt. I'm sure that Andries is an excellent Wikipedian in all other respects, but here we have a very clear POV conflict (i.e. can one write from an NPOV perspective about something that one feels so strongly, passionately, and onesidely a POV? ) Compare the page on Sai Baba with the wiki page on the equally controversial guru Da Free John which is much more positive towards him M Alan Kazlev 02:35, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Alan, I really tried to do my best not to make this not into an expose article and to present all sides of the story. Here is my personal story if you are interested. Andries 05:07, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
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