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The legend was regarding King Abgar V Ukama, however, the acceptance of Christianity by King Abgar IX in early 200s is a fact affirmed by the references brought. And there is no need to "rewrite" article removing large body of references in the article again and again. Gregory the Illuminator was born in 257 A.D., 57 years after Abgar IX's acceptance of Christianity. So I am not sure what this POV is supposed to lead to, but the truth is there already in many useful references. Atabek (talk) 05:55, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

And Eupator, the reference to Adolph von Harrack is available here as well as here, both in full text, and in second case is exactly the reference that I used from Google Books. So now that I brought two full-text PDF sources for you, I think it would be appropriate for you to apologize for assuming bad faith with your "This should place Atabek within the administrators radar" and actually restore the edits that you just removed. Else, I will seek administrator, since I am "under radar", to review your disruption. Atabek (talk) 06:12, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

You are doing exactly what you did on the Church of Kish article or elsewhere. The legend is not only about Jesus letter, but the conversion itself, as it was thought the person who is claimed to have converted the king, it was also through him the letters were exchanged. Steven K. Ross writes: There is, then, no compelling reason to believe that royal Edessa was ever 'officially' Christian, or even that Christians were in the majority there before the fourth century.' About Abgar VIII, it can only be said that he tolerated the new religion. The work also says that there is no coin, nothing from the area attesting to it. While in Armenia there were coins with Christian symbols on them.

The Abgar legend has been interpreted many times. The historical kernel within the story is believed to be that Christianity was adopted as the state religion under King Abgar VIII the Great (177-212); this was then conflated with the historically unsubstantiated Abgar V (13-50). That Abgar VIII was the first Christian king of Edessa cannot be verified. This missionary account is definitly historical fiction. Easebius of Caesarea provided the first version of this story around 303 or 312; before, it was unknown. The Chronicle of Edessa, a reliable source, says nothing about an apostle Addai, the correspondance with Jesus, or Abgar's conversion.

The Vatican has the most impressive libraries on Christian manuscripts and scriptures and they officially recognize Armenia as the first Christian nation. Popes years after years have made remarks about this.

Besides, the claim of state for the period where the place was under Roman/Parthian control does not make much sense, the king was a Vassal king of Parthians afteral, so even there, it being more of a province than a state by itself should suffice to dismiss the claim of first Christian State. And you having found the work itself on the internet does not address Eupator's reply. VartanM (talk) 17:47, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

VartanM, you are questioning the legend about Abgar V, we are talking about Abgar VIII (the Great, or sometimes called Abgar IX), who did adopt Christianity and traveled to Rome. There is no reference that you can bring denying that fact so far. And as Tourskin indicated, conversion of King, just like in case of Armenia, is essentially considered the conversion of state. In fact, even before Abgar VIII becoming Christian, Osroene was predominantly Christian already. Again this was 100 years before similar events in Armenia, so I am not quite sure what's your objective here. Atabek (talk) 01:43, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

You are obviously not reading what I am writing or either don't know what you are talking about. Go back and reread the references I have provided, which by quality are clearly above those you have provided. Mine were from historians, yours were mostly religious works or mostly outdated. Britannica and all peer reviewed credible reference publications I have checked so far shed doubts about what you are pushing here. Even the sources which are used in our side of Misplaced Pages doubt it. Iranica: com/newsite/ articles/ v1f2/v1f2a146. html It cannot be proved that Abgar the Great adopted Christianity; but his friend Bardaisáan was a heterodox Christian, and there was a church at Edessa in 201.

The context of the legend is highlighted here, so as Segal's Edessa here and here

The claim of first Christian State has been dismissed long ago, the Archaeological Institute of America in 1948 publication of Archaeology (p.151) claimed: Recent study has shown the Abgar legend to be no more than a pious fraud, ...

Lapham even goes further by writing: Without wishing to anticipate that discussion, however, we might just observe here that while we may want to agree with the majority of scholars that the legend, in its present form, bears all the hallmarks of later invention, designed to give apostolic origins to the Edessan Church, ... . G. J. Reinink and Alexander Cornelis relate to the evolution of the versions with the claim of conversion only appearing much later (in 1234 actually), but interestingly enough, your pushing of this version is quite ironic as the same who were proponent of what you are pushing claim that the Abgarid kings to be of Armenian descent. Part of this also covered in G. J. Reinink and Alexander Cornelis work which is partly accessible thru google book.

While Ute Possekel gives a prior date like several others, the date he provides is not earlier than the fourth century. In the fourth century, the Abgar legend originated in Edessa to substantiate the claim of an apostolic foundation of the church of Edessa.

The claim is based on a legend, they switched kings later to fit the dates, but most reject any official conversion and nearly all later published works doubt it or at least admit it that it can not be documented. Your claim of a conversion of a state considering the skepticism of historians amount to minority position pushing. As for your claim that Osroene was predominantly Christian again shows that either you do not even read what I write or quote, or the most logical explanation by now, is that you refuse to even consider what others write. VartanM (talk) 03:36, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Most of the references provided on the page already confirm that Abgarids were of Arab, Aramaic some other claim Jewish (in either case Semitic) origin, so they could not have been Armenian descent. There is a book reference on Abgars available on Google Books page 91, the book was published in 2000. Read entire page 91, to see how and when Abgar VIII (not V who was in the legend), accepted Christianity and visited Rome. And by the way, the story of Gregory the Illuminator converting king Tiridates III of Armenia is also based on a legend. So I don't see why you question one legend but not the other. In any case, Abgar VIII case is not based on legend, it's a historical fact confirmed by references. Atabek (talk) 05:46, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

You just again misrepresented what an author is saying. Check p. 95 third paragraph, he makes it clear that he does not know if it is true. Tiridates III conversion is confirmed by foreign reports of the time, by the coins of the Kingdom which included Christian symbols. I have no intention continuing with this further. I will just sit and watch how you are given carte blanche to continue disrupting. VartanM (talk) 06:58, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't see what is disruptive in researching references and incorporating them into articles, exactly as reflected in books. So assume good faith. The conversion of Edessa confirmed by many references already provided, in fact, since you referred to page 95 of the reference I provided above, here is the quote from that same page 95: "Thus, it is Abgar the Great who lays claim to being the world's first Christian monarch and Edessa the first Christian state. More than anything else, a major precedent had been set for the conversion of Rome itself". Moreover, I guess I don't have to prove that Syriac Orthodox Church was one of the first Churches in Eastern Orthodox Christianity, set by Apostle St. Peter in 34 A.D. Of course, Armenian Church was also one of the oldest Churches, but the facts of Osroene and its conversion under Abgars are undeniable some 100 years prior to Armenia. By the way, the main reference provided to Armenia being the first Christian state at Armenian Apostolic Church article comes from Richard Hovanissian, thus it's obviously a non-neutral POV.

The main point being misinterpreted by you, I guess, is that it's actually irrelevant in context of Osroene, whether Armenia claimed to be first Christian state or not. Yes, Osroene was first, so what? How does that add or take away weight on any other Armenia-related topic? I don't see the point for your argument or grievances emanating in this regard. Atabek (talk) 07:31, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

You do see what is disruptive in your edits, page 95 makes it clear that it can not be affirmed if it is true or not. Lay claims are a watered down wording which makes of the statement no more than claims. Your claims of undeniability are OR and have been shown to be your pursuit to push your POV and your deliberate non-consideration of the materials others have provide. Here are some of the materials, on Armenia, and unlike the few you can find from your side, which even your sources (the recent ones) don't provide as established. The wordings are stronger, the materials more notable and by their numbers on the several times more than you could ever provide.

About AD 300, Tiridates III adopted Christianity as the religion of his kingdom, making Armenia the first Christian state. Christianization led to the ... Academic American Encyclopedia, Grolier Incorporated - Reference - 1986 – p. 172

301 Armenia first Christian nation ... Great Religions of the World, National Geographic Book Service, p. 414

... and Armenia, too, would become a Christian state at about the same time (and perhaps before the Edict of Milan, thus becoming the first Christian state) ... Zoroastrianism in Armenia by James R. Russell (1987), p. 114

... for having established the first Christian state belongs to the Armenians., The New Encyclopaedia Britannica, Encyclopaedia Britannica(ed.), Encyclopaedia Britannica, Chicago University of, Encyclopaedia Britannica Staff (1974) p. 139

This makes Armenia the first country to have recognised Christianity ... The Christian Orient, British Library, p. 59

In the fourth century, Armenia became the first Christian state ... Encyclopedia of the Modern Middle East by Reeva S. Simon, Philip Mattar, Richard W. Bulliet - Middle East – 1996 p. 1115

Almost certainly, Armenia was the first state anywhere to establish Christianity as an official faith, which it did around the year 300. ... The Next Christendom The Coming of Global Christianity, Philip Jenkins (2002) p. 18

Armenia thus became the world's first Christian nation, a major breakthrough for those early believers, and a source of continuing pride to Armenians today. ... Gale Encyclopedia of Multicultural America by Rudolph J. Vecoli, Judy Galens, Anna Jean Sheets, Robyn V. Young, 1995

Armenia was the first nation w hich embraced Christianity, ... History Of The Decline And Fall Of The Roman Empire, Edward Gibbon - History - 2004 p. 287

Since I will be wasting space here, I will only post the links for the rest. , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , . - Fedayee (talk) 19:05, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

In addition, the crucial role of Armenia in the lead should not be removed.--TigranTheGreat (talk) 12:14, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

It does not matter, the reference are obviously wrong because there are many other, actually expert, references citing Osroene as the first Christian state. And the fact is that Osroene was the first Christian kingdom because its kings adopted Christianity prior to Armenia. Now, there is one way out of deadlock is to take out your POV out of this article to Armenia-related articles, rather than disputing the references related to Osroene. Atabek (talk) 22:30, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

It does matter. You're arguing against something which is irrefutable; the first thing historians ever do mention about Armenia is that it was the first state to adopt Christianity. Your hopeless crusade arguing otherwise reeks of malfeasance on your part. In any case, they just decisively debunked your pathetic attempts to pass off this legend as a fact. Now please, stop disrupting and distorting this article with your pseudohistory and go play around on the Misplaced Pages sandbox or edit the grammar of some other articles. It's been established by now that you don't a give hoot about what's true and what's false when it comes to these articles. --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 05:21, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

What does all that have to do with Osroene article. I would imagine this information, OR and POV would be relevant in Armenia article not here. And I am not quite clear why multitude of other references, not specifically related to Christianity, but diretly related to Osroene as well as general grammar improvements are being reverted by TigranTheGreat, inserting Armenian POV, without any justification. What does this topic have to do with Armenia?I don't think the one sentence justification he provided above saying: "the crucial role of Armenia in the lead should not be removed", are sufficient for major revert that he has done, so he technically violated his parole.

MarshallBagramyan, please, assume good faith. I don't believe your comment: "Now please, stop disrupting and distorting this article with your pseudohistory and go play around on the Misplaced Pages sandbox or edit the grammar of some other articles" is quite in line with being civil or in good faith, not mentioning your lack of authority to make such proposals. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 10:34, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

It has to do with Armenia with A)it being a vassal of the Armenian Empire and B)you trying to insert the false and discredited notion that Osroene predated Armenia in becoming the first state to adopt Christianity.

Atabek, are you still under the illusion that we are to maintain good faith in the face of your dishonest, provocative and farcical edits? You have stopped at nothing to belittle Armenia's history, whether in being the Armenian Genocide or Karabakh or Osroene, so contain your astonishment a tad bit and understand that is you who is under the burden of maintaining civility and good faith. Tigran just showed you 25 sources to disprove your spurious claims and yet you waived them without so much as considering the immense imbalance it places against your weakly supported claims. I'm done arguing here.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 21:52, 9 March 2008 (UTC)