Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 22:38, 31 July 2005

• WP:ANI
• WP:AN/I

This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems.

• Before posting:
  • Read these tips for dealing with incivility
  • If the issue concerns a specific user, try discussing it with them on their talk page
  • Try dispute resolution
  • Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly.
• Be brief and include diffs demonstrating the problem
• Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead go to Requests for oversight.

When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough.
You may use {{subst:ANI-notice}} ~~~~ to do so.

Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search)

• Voluntary RfAs after resignation
• Allowing page movers to enable two-factor authentication
• Rewriting the guideline Misplaced Pages:Please do not bite the newcomers
• Should comments made using LLMs or chatbots be discounted or even removed?

Harry Potter and the Enormous Headache

These two three revisions of Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince (the edits by 65.6.66.74 (talk · contribs)) contain the book in its entirety. Given that they were both immediately reverted and there is thus on GFDL issue, and that the copyright owner is extremely litigious and well-funded, could someone delete the article and restore only the other revisions? —Cryptic (talk) 04:52, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Better to ask a dev to remove those two versions. Snowspinner 05:05, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

Then could I bother someone who's IRC-enabled (I'm not) to try and get ahold of one? —Cryptic (talk) 05:08, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Snowspinner, a regular admin can only make those edits invisible, to actually clear them totally from the history you'll need a developer.--nixie 05:11, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Can't we simply delete the article and undelete all revisions but these three? I thought the ability to selectively undelete only some revisions exists for exactly these kinds of situations. Of course, admins would still be able to read the deleted revisions, but that shouldn't be a real problem. --cesarb 16:28, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

No. When you undelete you undelete everything. We need a developer. Theresa Knott (a tenth stroke) 00:21, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Tim has killed them. That said, you can now undelete specific revisions. But on a 3000+ edit article, undeleting all but two is basically pure hell. Snowspinner 04:40, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Wonderful! If these -dare I say vandals?- continue to do this (as MTG shows below), we'll need more developer assistance as time goes on. I need some painkillers. --Deathphoenix 16:03, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

And the headache continued throbbing, for in this revision doth the copyvio remain! Only chapter 1 by the looks of things, but it needs deleting too. Garrett 05:04, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Pugnavi & socks

Pugnavi (talk · contribs), Pugnare (talk · contribs), Pugnavi2 (talk · contribs), Hendiadioin (talk · contribs), and Hendiadis (talk · contribs) were blocked indefinately today for making threats against the site (specifically, threatening to upload a virus into the database) and for being sockpuppets of one another. Kelly Martin blocked the first two, and I blocked the last three. All acknowledged being the blocked user. I bring the issue up here for two reasons: 1) Just in case the sock problem continues, and 2) is this a case where the "danger" provision of the blocking policy applies? Since it was my first block, I just want to make sure I don't miss any steps, particularly with regard to #2. -- Essjay · [ ] 16:47, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

Dont worry. This comes under "when the blocking policy doesn't cover the situation use common sense" which isn't actually in the blocking policy so I'm bootstrapping it. Theresa Knott (a tenth stroke) 17:24, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

It might have been better to look at what the user was actually saying, it didn't look much like a threat to me. Seems like you're only telling part of the truth. I also don't think blocking just because a user is a sock is right. How will the blocked user negotiate then? Looks like Essjay is abusing his new powers! JM*Bell° 11:23, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

You mean, the unthreatening bit where Pugnavi (with the second of his three edits) says

"Think about it. You'll be hearing from me in the future, so I guess you better not ignore this, or I'll upload a virus into one of the media files."

Or perhaps his first edit, which explicitly identifies itself as a threat?

"This is a threat. If you do not change and spread this word, I will personally make sure a virus is uploaded into one of the media files so that whoever opens it will get infected. Mark my words."

Why would we want to "negotiate" with a threatening sockpuppet? Essjay gets two thumbs up for blocking a user who was clearly asking for it. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:42, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I would like to add that User:Pugnavi was vandalizing many articles before he was blocked which that in itself is enough of a reason to block him and his sockpuppets. --Eliezer | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 08:50, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

User:84.9.223.35

Is not me, and forged my signature (completely, including link) against a vote at VFD - ~~~~ 22:28, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I've issued a warning on the user talk page. Theresa Knott (a tenth stroke) 23:32, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

User:Tanner2

All articles + one Image:...pdf?? created are nonsense. Please delete and notify. -Feydey 23:38, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Please report vandalism on WP:VIP. Please nominate nonsense articles either on WP:CSD or WP:VFD as appropriate. And if you think a user is behaving inapproprately, it's only fair to discuss the matter with them on their talk page. A brief check of this user's contributions suggests he's not an out and out (tubgirl etc.) vandal. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 23:47, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

I've deleted the pdf, but the articles look as if they may well be good faith. I suggest you go the vfd route. Theresa Knott (a tenth stroke) 23:47, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Was it really a pdf (I thought you couldn't upload them) or just a page called image:somethingorother.pdf ? (When I looked at it all I saw was an extant, but imageless, page)-- Finlay McWalter | Talk 00:31, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

You doubt me ? ;-) Yep it certainly was a pdf. I opened it and took a look. (of course I did, I wouldn't delete something without checking what it was :-P ) It was a pdf version of the "newspaper". Theresa Knott (a tenth stroke) 00:52, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

PDFs provide a plain-text link to the file in the place where the inline image would be, so surely you would have seen one for this. Unless that link is browser-end and it tries to insert the PDF inline... anyway, just a thought in passing. :) Garrett 00:59, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

The reason he couldn't see it, was because I deleted it. Theresa Knott (a tenth stroke) 01:10, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Ah... *and all was well in the world again* :) Garrett 05:20, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

User:GrandCru and socks

GrandCru (talk · contribs) recently made a series of controversial edits that were reverted. Today, two new accounts were created that jumped right into the conflicts that GrandCru was involved in: BobbybuiIder (talk · contribs) (impersonating User:Bobbybuilder) and WiIfried Derksen (talk · contribs) (impersonating User:Wilfried Derksen, a.k.a. User:Electionworld). The impostor accounts have since been blocked, but GrandCru, assuming he is indeed responsible, has not been held accountable. --MarkSweep 03:57, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

GrandCru (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) claimed that he is not the imposter, meanwhile he reverted all vandalised pages to WiIfried Derksen (talk · contribs) or BobbybuiIder (talk · contribs)'s versions. Furthermore, the writing style from the impostor accounts are the same as GrandCru (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Please hold him accountable. Bobbybuilder 12:23, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

On the advice of Ilyanep, I blocked GrandCru as a sockpuppet. -- Essjay · Talk 20:34, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. (We won't be needing that stake, I think.) Related to this, what should be made of the following diff: ? It's the work of JiangsBellybuttonLint (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), one of the many accounts created recently for the sole purpose of harassing User:Jiang (see the history of his user page and his talk page). I'm starting to wonder if a single sockpuppet-master is behind these accounts. --MarkSweep 07:13, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I saw that last night, and I hit him with a permablock. -- Essjay · Talk 14:51, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Ok. If you look at the history of Jiang's user page, you'll see that this is all part of a regular pattern, unfortunately. If they all originate from a single IP address, perhaps something could be done besides blocking individual accounts? --MarkSweep 18:34, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, that's fine, I don't give a frog's fat ass if you block people that deserve it. But I (the original GrandCru) didn't create the fake Bobby or Derksen accounts. I was innocent, and got blocked anyway. If you look at Bobbybuilder's history, you will see that his profanity and vandalisms were far greater than mine ever were. He was the truly abusive one, but you guys keep overlooking it. Why was he not blocked? Go ahead, look up all the IP addresses, you will see that prior to today I had nothing to do with any of the Jiang bullshit. But, you know what? Since you guys blocked me permanently and put to waste all my effort and contributions, I will spend the same amount of time vandalising Bobbybuilder. (And Jiang, only because Jiang's group of vandals are going to help me get Bobby). One of these days, the vandals will rise up against the communists. You can prohibit freedom of speech in mainland China, but not in the rest of the world. Misplaced Pages was created so that everyone can contribute, but as it turns out, the people that have power (admins, beaurocrats, etc.) will abuse it to support their own POVs, etc. Fuck you all, I'm going to the dark side of wiki! --GrandCruTwo 03:41, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Hum..."I wasn't a vandal before, but since I got blocked, instead of asking to be unblocked, I'll become a vandal." Methinks the lady doth protesteth too much. -- Essjay · Talk 23:52, July 24, 2005 (UTC)

Methinks the lady is also blockéd frometh editing. -- Essjay · Talk 23:55, July 24, 2005 (UTC)

Added a section on this vandal in Misplaced Pages:Vandalism in progress/Long term alerts, includes an ever growing list of sockpuppets. -Loren 05:05, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

The most recent one is Oy Maatsulu (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and has apparently not been blocked yet. --MarkSweep 18:02, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, you better believe that I haven't been blocked yet. I will continue until the right people have been banned. As long as Bobbybuilder is in existance, I will continue.--BobbyButtSlime 01:49, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Blocked. -- Essjay · Talk 01:57, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

Ooops. Not Blocked. Heh heh...--The Assjay Strikes Back 02:38, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Another GrandCru sock: User:JennaHaze --Calton | Talk 05:51, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

Simple English persistent vandal (Roberto)

There is a persistent vandal "Roberto" vandalizing the front page of Simple English by modifying the Template:Wikitopics used on the main page. Images of masturbation on the main page is not a good thing. Has been a user on Simple for less than 24 hours. At least three of us have used up our 3 reverts just in the last hour or two. User:Netoholic and/or User:Angela are asleep (has to happen sometime). :( We need the guy (?) blocked now. Shenme 05:34, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

A "white hat" (User:Brion VIBBER) showed up and deleted the 60+ new junk articles, cleaned up the others, and blocked Roberto the monotonously masterbaiting. Thank you greatly! Shenme 06:07, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Votes for deletion/Authentic Matthew

Votes being deleted, and other abuse of process, by User:Mikefar, a probable sockpuppet. ~~~~ 06:34, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

• The following comments copied from Misplaced Pages talk:Votes for deletion

This VfD is now something of a mess; in addition, -Ril- (talk · contribs) has taken charge of it, and is treating it as his personal fiefdom, deciding which comments stay and which go, deleting criticism of his actions (on the basis that they're from sock-puppets — allegations which are mostly not only unproved but unlikely). Experience tells me that my intervention would only add fuel to the fire; could someone else try to clear up the mess and rstore order? the wholething seems to be a skirmish in what's become a prolonged campaign between -Ril- and a group of other editors (some of whom, but not all, probably are sock-puppets). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:11, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

If someone is removing others' comments then that's simple vandalism. Whether he thinks they're sock puppets or not is irrelevant. Block him. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:18, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

He seems to moving comments that he disagrees with to Misplaced Pages talk:Votes for deletion/Authentic Matthew, rather than actually deleting them, - SimonP 21:34, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure that excuses him. Finding a result from a contentious VfD is the job of an admin, not of a user with a Bombus ruderatus in his super-caputular protection. -Ril- should leave the votes alone. smoddy 21:42, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Any chance of someone intervening? As I said, -Ril-'s response to me is knee-jerk hostility, so I'd have no good effect. (I'm morally certain that he's Lir (talk · contribs), though an IP address check was apparently negative.) --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 20:40, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

As I've said on the VfD, Ril is in need of a sound spanking. I don't care who says what, no matter how much Ril might think his actions are supported by WP policy, they simply are NOT. He is acting apparently according to what he perceives as "boldness" (I said long ago this was going to cause trouble), when in fact his boldness is CLEARLY within the realm of "vandalism". What's positively repulsive is that the admins who normally patrol this sort of subject have stood silently by, permitting Ril to attempt to beat all opposition into submission. It's positively appalling. While there are certainly valid allegations of sockpuppetry, Ril's actions are in CLEAR violation of several CORE WP policies, including WP:AGF, WP:BITE, WP:Civility and WP:NPA. It's insane that he hasn't yet been permbanned, to say nothing of 24h blocked. Tomer 09:26, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Have the votes been moved back or are they still on the talk page? Theresa Knott (a tenth stroke) 10:06, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I've been watching this, and I haven't seen any votes being moved. The moves I've seen were of multi-page essays. --Carnildo 18:17, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I have not moved any votes whatsoever, and I strongly resent this continued vendetta against me by Mel Etitis throught my duration at Misplaced Pages, because he/she considers me to be someone called Lir, despite the evidence to the contrary. I view the accusation as a personal attack, and would like it withdrawn. ~~~~ 12:33, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Further, the only things I have moved are (a) restoring brief comments where they were originally, including evidence of certain voters being sockpuppets, which were removed by the said sockpuppets (b) an instruction not to delete the article whatever the vote outcome, because this instruction violated VFD policy, and required an injunction from the arbitration committee to stand, which simply did not exist (c) a vast "rebuttal" section, which policy does not include for, and which was far too extensive to be considered merely a comment. I moved this to talk, and placed a note to this effect in the VFD. ~~~~ 12:33, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Please, please, please will someone close off this VfD - I have some interest in the issues, but the debate has got well out of hand (and IMO neither side is innocent). There is no longer any chance of a sensible discussion - and all but the warriors have left the room. Continuing this will only lead to more grief. --Doc (?) 01:14, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Albrecht Prinz von Croy

...was deleted from the German Misplaced Pages, and protected because some anon repeatedly recreated it. It is now on VFD here, and the article, its talk page and the VFD page are under fire by User:83.109.164.130, User:83.109.188.122, User:83.109.130.238 and User:83.109.156.169 - arguably the same person on four different IPs. It may be worthwhile to keep an eye on this. Radiant_>|< 12:25, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Now that's an interesting one though I suspect I know the answer to my next question... User:83.109.188.122 has pasted the text of the German article (in German) to the talk page of this article. Can we delete it automatically as previously vfd'd material, or does that not apply as it was a different wiki project? -- Francs2000 | Talk File:Uk flag large.png 18:22, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I think it should be deleted as useless junk. This is the EN-wiki, not the german wiki, so pasting text in a foreign language, particularly previously VfD'd information, should be treated as vandalism. -- Essjay · Talk 18:27, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

NB: I've deleted the relevant talk page (the only edit was the vandalism) and warned the user not to post it again. I found the edit summary about revoking sysop powers rather amusing. -- Essjay · Talk 18:32, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Persistent linkspammer

I was holding off on reporting this one, but now it seems this anon just doesn't get it. The edits started July 19 from 81.182.153.218 (talk · contribs) on pages such as Hungary, Medical tourism and Misplaced Pages:Wikiportal/Trains/Where to start. Each of the anon's edits were to add a link to a geocities page that isn't anything but a collection of further links and some ads. Yesterday, the anon was back as 81.182.153.8 (talk · contribs) with the same activity. All of the linkspam was promptly reverted by a number of other editors (including myself), and the user was warned on both IP talk pages. Today, he's back as 81.183.164.101 (talk · contribs) adding the same links to the same places and getting the same reverts. slambo 12:44, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

I haven't seen this linkspammer return today, so he may have gotten the point. Thanks to those who helped out. slambo 19:19, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Nest of trolls at 24.24.218.220

This is one guy's cable (cpe-24-24-218-220.socal.res.rr.com). Names used were ThePope, TeamKiller, CaptainNiggo, CaptainStinko, CaptainFecehead, Fisting, Fisting2 and the IP itself. The mission was to troll. I've blocked the IP for a month (feel free to renew it in a month) and the names indefinitely - David Gerard 18:18, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages Username & Anonymous0513

I'm concerned about Misplaced Pages Username (talk · contribs) and Anonymous0513 (talk · contribs). Both accounts appeared this morning, and both have worked exculsively creating album articles. Misplaced Pages Username voted oppose in the RfA of the user who welcomed him by copy/pasting the comments of the user above him. (Albiet, I noticed this because I nominated the user; checking the contributions to determine how long Misplaced Pages Username had been around was what set off my wikisenses). This edit suggests the two have a history (but how, if they both showed up early this morning?) and this edit is even stranger. (I warned Misplaced Pages Username for copyvio on Buck Dharma (which I've since deleted as a copyvio) but I think that is unrelated to the existing situation.) My concern is that the two may be sockpuppets of some previous user; does anyone else think that something's rotten in the state of Denmark? -- Essjay · Talk 20:33, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Regardless of activities my feelings are that user:Misplaced Pages Username is an inapropriate username on the grounds of being confusing. Thryduulf 21:24, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, not a good user name. Heck, I was asked to change mine from User:AdmN, because someone thought it looked like an abbreviation of "administrator". Just point him in the direction of Misplaced Pages:Username. func(talk) 22:16, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

While we're on the subject of bad names, no one has blocked NigletJones (talk · contribs) (reincarnation?). You may want to see this. --Dmcdevit·t 22:29, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

It appears to be user:Marijuanaisbad. Who we were being trolled over - David Gerard 09:28, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Marijuanaisbad was a sockpuppet of "Zod"; I'm of the opinion that these two are the same disruptive user, particularly since the only two users he's interacted with are Redwolf24 & I, and we were the two main users being trolled by Marijuanaisbad and "Zod." I'd like others to look it over first, but I think a sockpuppet block is in order (particularly considering this edit). -- Essjay · Talk 15:07, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

personal attacks at talk:Albanians

user:Albanau left a message on my talk page about personal attacks against him at talk:Albanians, by user:Chronographos, and asking me to block him for 24 hours.

After reading all the links, I decided not to block at this point but to give user:Chronagraphos a very stern warning on his talk page not to do it again or he will be blocked. I've encouraged user:Albanau to note here if there are any further problems as I'm not going to be online much longer this evening.

See user talk:Thryduulf, talk:Albanians , user talk:Chronographos and user talk:Albanau. Thryduulf 22:06, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

user:Theathenae have also repeatedly engaged in personal attacks against me and not just Chronographos, that what I told you on the talk page. But thank you very much for the help so far but I hope a administrator can leave a warning at Theatheane talk page as well. --Albanau 22:45, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Basically User:Albanau's contributions to wikipedia is nothing but trouble such as petty-vandalism, edit-wars and false complaints. Miskin 03:05, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I don't want to start a 'flame of words' with you so kindly remove your allegations from this topic, cause it is off topic. Albanau 03:18, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Pointing out User:Albanau's support for armed Albanian extremist groups was relevant and essential to the discussion at Talk:Albanians, as his edits are motivated by a violent Albanian extremism, and it is within this context they must be seen for what they are.--Theathenae 06:50, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Can someone, any administrator, please delate Theathenae personal attacks above and perament or temporary ban him. Many thanks in advance! Albanau 12:35, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Albanau, I have just reviewed the behaviour of Theathenae on talk:Albanians and I see absolutely nothing improper in the form of what he says. On the other hand, I did see instances of you employing words such as "pathetic" toward other users (and not discussing tragedy).

I find it legitimate of Theathenae to explain his view of the situation, and your request to have him banned for doing so wholly unappropriate. You might also be interested to know that your usage of capitals and urging tone in the summary are rather rude.

I would like to advise you to calm down and fill in a Request for Comments if you cannot ease your differences together. Rama 13:29, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Finally, an admin who reads what has happened. As anyone can see by looking at the relevant talk pages and article histories, Albanau has been systematically rude to anyone who disagrees with him, to the extent of calling a fellow Albanian of his "very unintelligent", just because they disagreed. Albanau has also violated the 3RR rule multiple times (he even did 4 reverts within 51 minutes), yet he has consistently taunted other editors to revert and break the 3RR. If they take the bait, he immediately reports them. He has been very cunning in that he first edits in his own POV, and then creates a revert war, according to plan. He has also repeatedly given provocative titles to his edit summaries, and when offered neutral phrasings, he ignores them. In an vain effort to compromise, I even proposed using his own words in the article. Guess what: he started wiggling out of his own words. I will appreciate your involvement in this, if you have the time and disposition. I also suspect sockpuppetry in the Talk:Albanians page, but for the time being I do not intend to request its investigation as it would inflame things further. Milles mercis. Chronographos 15:17, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Indeed. I merely let other editors know of User:Albanau's activities on the Swedish Misplaced Pages, in which he clearly promotes , armed extremist groups in the Balkans, claiming that they are fighting for "human rights" and against "cultural oppression". These are his words, not mine. His blatant promotion of these groups was later removed by another editor as "redundant propaganda": ,, while his dubious claim that there is a ""Çamëria Liberation Army" in Greece fighting for "human rights" was disputed, and no reference to such a group exists on the English Misplaced Pages. Finally, seeing as he is complaining of personal attacks, a non-comprehensive list of User:Albanau's personal attacks against me and other editors on Talk:Albanians follows: , , , . Who's the one who should really be banned?--Theathenae 13:57, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Albanau has been causing nothing but trouble with his untenable edits and style. How people react to him is a matter of taste, but hardly unprovoked; last time I checked, personal attacks per se were not blockable, only if it is "disruptive", so the complaint is pointless here, it should go to rfc, and then to the arbcom, and I do not think Albanau is likely to find much favour with the arbcom, in the light of his own behaviour. dab (ᛏ) 19:30, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

I've been watching the edit patterns of both User:Albanau and User:Theathenae, and I must say that they are both atrocious Wikipedians who need to be disciplined. User:Chronographos has a fine edit history when it comes to his edits to actual articles, but he has unfortunately become well-known for his Ad hominem attacks on other Wikipedians(see Talk:Greek language where Chronographos launches a personal attack on User:Macrakis for no good reason), and one would hope that such behavior doesn't continue. Decius 19:44, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

It is amusing to see User:Decius pontificate on the behaviour of other editors, especially considering the dirty linen he has in his closet. Misplaced Pages policy specifically proscribes "racial, sexual, homophobic, religious or ethnic epithets directed against another contributor", but this didn't stop him from launching into a homophobic tirade on Talk:Ancient Macedonian language not so long ago: , , , , , , and (edit summary). I am confident that a review of my edit history would find nothing inappropriate in terms of content, even if I have defended some of my edits a bit too zealously on occasion and fallen foul of the 3RR - when I have felt an injustice being committed. For that you can blame my passionate Greek nature.--Theathenae 21:21, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I suppose that, taken out of context, those edits would seem astounding to the average reader, and paint me out to be a cruel Marquis de Sade. However, one must read the history of that Talk Page and read Chronographos' comments which led up to it. The issue here is User:Albanau and User:Theathenae's edits. Decius 21:35, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

What the average reader would make of your remarks is irrelevant, as is the context in which they were made. Your persistent homophobic attacks were a flagrant violation of official Misplaced Pages policy, for which you need to be disciplined. As for my edits, I stand by them as stated above.--Theathenae 21:49, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

I don't need to be disciplined for anything. Chronographos knew what he was getting into when he kept prodding at me. I stand by my edits also. They were made after I lost all patience with the said User, after I attempted numerous times to settle things peacefully. But that's in the past, and I don't have any quarrel with Chronographos now. Decius 21:55, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

This isn't about your personal vendetta against User:Chronographos. This is about you breaking the rules, whatever the reason. And you must face the consequences.--Theathenae 22:01, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

If you want to start talking about "rules", then I'll remind you of User:Chronographos' breaking of the rules in his numerous personal attacks on me, not to mention your personal attacks on other Users. Bring it on. Decius 22:05, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

"Personal attacks" are open to interpretation - his remarks could just as easily be seen as witty albeit acerbic ripostes. Your homophobia, on the other hand, is below the belt.--Theathenae 22:16, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

No, there are attacks of his on record which are clearly personal attacks. Not to mention comments of yours, which I will bring up if I need to do, made on other pages. As for the "homophobia" charge, faggot can also mean, in American slang, "a man who has no balls". So I don't see any homophobia in those comments. Decius 22:21, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Is describing someone as a "deranged homosexual" in an edit summary also free of homophobic sentiment? I think you've been comprehensively outed as a homophobe, so it's pointless trying to hide in your closet now. And please refrain from editing my comments. Cheers.--Theathenae 22:31, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

I didn't edit your comment. That was a Wiki glich. I did not make that edit, nor do I see why I would have. Decius 22:55, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

guys, if you start denouncing each other now over all the frolicking that went down on the XMK talkpage, I'll be very disappointed in both of you. dab (ᛏ) 22:39, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

It is not my intention to disappoint you, dab, but I will not be slandered, threatened or intimidated by a supporter of armed extremists or a homophobe.--Theathenae 22:50, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

That's not homophobia, that was the impression that he gave me at the time: a deranged homosexual. I was not disparaging him for being a deranged homosexual, just giving a description. In those instances where I was using "faggot" and "fag", they were referring to the lack of balls that he was displaying (e.g., talking a lot of trash but not stating his name; whining like a bitch, etc.). Decius 22:39, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

If you had balls you would just admit your homophobia and face the music, or rather, take it like a man.--Theathenae 22:50, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

I may have made personal attacks in response to his personal attacks, but they are not homophobic if you read them as I intended. Such a use of faggot is well-known and common usage. Decius 23:00, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

I don't know what the nature of this dispute is and I really don't care, nor do I care who started it, nor do I care about this tortured reasoning about how these comments aren't really homophobic. If I see anyone using these sorts of homophobic insults again, they get blocked for a month. Play nice and find something else to call each other. Gamaliel 01:04, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

User:Dudtz trolling

User:Dudtz has been going to various UK-related pages and posting fairly wild generalisations on their talk pages. At first I thought they were just ignorant of the facts and were finding out in their own way; now the same user has posted the same over-generalised ignorant-of-the-facts argument to Talk:United Kingdom/Country, Kingdom or State as they had done to Talk:United Kingdom and Talk:Scotland: on both pages their rather judgmental stance had been challenged by other users. I think he's just trolling for the sake of it and it would be handy if other admins could keep an eye out because I don't know how much longer I'm going to be online tonight. -- Francs2000 | Talk File:Uk flag large.png 22:31, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I'd call it not so much trolling but more a severe case of WP:POINT. --UPDATE: I've given him a friendly little reminder about WP:POINT, hopefully that's all that's needed, but please do keep us up to date if he continues along this path. Garrett 12:10, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

User:Bang_Bang - latest Bank of Misplaced Pages sock

I've rolled back already and plan to delete and block with extreme prejudice... unless someone else would like the honour. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 13:45, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Done. I deleted history for some "bank" pages since the latest sock was linking into their history. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 15:06, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Let me ask you something. Can you delete this entry without affecting the rest history of the talk page of User:Hall_Monitor? If you cannot, then Hall Monitor's account is still safe. Even if your revert our message, this cannot harm our bank. We still know and Hall Monitor also knows, what his current deposit is. So, can you delete or hide some entries of history, while keeping the rest entries readable? Bank Bang 21:56, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I can but I'm not going to. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 04:31, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I am afraid you have to. Otherwise how can you stop us? Bank Gong 08:17, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

See also User:Bang Bank. FreplySpang (talk) 21:22, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

(whom I just blocked) FreplySpang (talk) 21:24, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Do you guys ever worry that these blocks just egg people on and push them further and further from any hope of being agreeable? I mean, come on, this started out as a harmless little game/rewards system, and now we've got this mess on our hands. Had we left it alone, one of two things would have happened: the game would've continued, causing no harm, or the banker would've gotten bored and dropped it. Everyking 03:55, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

In general I don't believe that "don't feed the trolls" works. In this case in particular, I think that the perpetrator has every intention of running his banking game for a period of years. Had it been shut down after drawing greater participation, there would have been people upset. And I think that its shutdown would have been inevitable, because similar stuff has been shut down before. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 04:29, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

What similar stuff has been shut down before? We asked you three questions and you avoided to answer to us or give us a reasonable explanation of your unfair behavior... Why you are afraid of us so much? Bank Gong 08:14, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Blocked. Thryduulf 09:39, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Want to place a bet as to whether he comes back with another name? Everyking 11:43, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

No, but I'd be happy to place bets as to whether he gives up after a couple more weeks of this. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 11:57, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

He'll be back. This is user:Iasson - orginator of the Faethon and list of ancient Greeks sockpuppets - who is banned for a year by the arbcom . I'd personally prefer to slap an IP ban on him, but I beleive he edist from a dynamic range owned by the one of the largest ISPs in Greece. Thryduulf 12:01, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Shame on you! Instead of answering to our questions and explain to us and to our clients why you keep chasing us, you are lying and claiming that we are a banned user (either Iasson or Whily on Wheels or Faethon or whatever). Why are you doing this? Answer to our three questions please. Why any other wikipedia bank is tolerated here, and our nomic bank isnt?

• The latest one is Gong_Bank already hitting user talk pages. ∞Who?¿? 19:48, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
  • User:Gong Bank has been blocked. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 22:51, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

User:Master Thief Garrett

I'd appreciate more eyes on the the deletion log of this new and very inexperienced admin. In the few hours in which he has had sysop powers, he has made quite a number of very questionable speedies. See User talk:Master Thief Garrett. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 17:44, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Tony is absolutely right. The thing with the expansion of WP:CSD is that even though the rules have been relaxed regarding deletion, we still have to follow them. I have gone through the Thief's deletions and undeleted several questionable items, and note that the more egregious deletions have already been undone by others. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 18:40, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Considering that I've only been an admin a bit longer than MTG, and I did quite a few speedies yesterday, I'd like to make a self-request for review of my deletions. -- Essjay · Talk 18:47, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

You're welcome. I'm off out soon, but I took a quick look at noticed that you'd deleted Nasalis muscle, a perfectly good encyclopedia article needing a bit of cleanup. I've restored and cleaned it up as a demonstration of the standard of work I would expect an administrator to produce. I'd suggest that if you don't understand an article it doesn't mean that you have to delete it. Usually a minute or two on Google will bring enlightenment. Also remember to look at "What links here". I hope you agree that as administrators we should be trying to make articles better whenever that is reasonably possible. Deleting good material is never a sensible option. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 19:10, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Incidentally, the article nasalis muscle (and a number of other contributions from Andy85719 (talk · contribs)) are direct copy-pastes from the online version of Gray's Anatomy. Although it's the 1918 edition and copyright has lapsed, I've strongly encouraged Andy to cite his sources to avoid charges of plagiarism. (Note that I'm definitely not saying that MTGEssjay should have speedied the article.) TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:48, 22 July 2005 (UTC) Amended 20:28, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Plagiarism isn't the correct word to use here. We are not--or should not--be here to produce anything creative, but to state facts, so the word would be inappropriate. Referencing Gray would certainly be de rigueur here, because Gray is an authority and your average Wikipedian is not (and even when he is he must still cite an external authority). --Tony Sidaway|Talk 04:04, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Er, plagiarism is precisely the correct word to use here. It's a direct, unaltered, unexpanded copy of someone else's words pasted in without attribution. I am not saying it's a copyright violation, but it is definitely plagiarism if its source is left uncited. I am glad you've added a cite to nasalis muscle, Tony; have you had a chance to get the other articles? --TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:11, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Also beware of deleting articles for unorthodox reasons such as "gamecruft". If an article relates to an aspect of a game that you think is too trivial for an article, you should consider merging content and, unless there is a good reason to delete, replace by a redirect. If for some reason you think the article should still be deleted (for instance for lack of a candidate article to which to merge the information) list it on VfD. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 19:17, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to second Tony's points here. If you can't cite the Misplaced Pages:Criteria for speedy deletion that you're invoking, then it's probably not a candidate. --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 19:30, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure I've never deleted anything as "gamecruft" for two reasons: 1) I hate the term "cruft," and 2) the only two times I've ever typed the word are in this sentence. If it appears in my delete log, then it is because it was part of the CSD tag on the article. I think I can speak for both MTG and myself to say this: Along with berating us for our mistakes, make sure to tell us when we do something good. We are people, afterall. The words of Larry Sanger ring in my ears... -- Essjay · Talk 19:50, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I'd say that in general you're doing a good job. If you're not sure about an article tagged as a speedy, leave it for another admin or take it to VfD. Chin up, and wield your mop with pride. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 20:28, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

See also User talk:Redwolf24#thanks for supporting me. Redwolf24 22:10, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I want to support TenOfAllTrades' sentiment. Master Thief Garrett is certainly administrator material. I'm only concerned that, only three months an editor, he may be a little too green to exercise the good judgement we expect in all circumstances. He's doing a good job and I don't want to minimize that, though I hope he listens to advice. EssJay is also doing an excellent job.

On the question of gamecruft, the specific article I was referring to was Quantum Accelerator.

• "23:20, 21 July 2005 Essjay deleted "Quantum Accelerator" (content was: '{{db|gamecruft}}The Device used in Final Doom to close gateways from hell, the gatekkepr then tries to use them for some evil means that is not expla...')"

The article made perfect sense in itself, but had been marked as "gamecruft" (which is not a CSD) by Gazpacho. According to our agreed deletion policy, such articles should be cleaned up and merged, or VfD'd, not speedied. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 23:15, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Hello all! Time to face the firing squad I see! :)

First of all, I am very displeased with this incident notice. Why? If there is any sort of statement being made against someone, at least have the decency to inform them. I only found this out by happening to check for responses to some of the thanks messages I left. Not a good start I can tell you.

OK, I will admit it, YES, DUH, I -SCREWED- UP BIIIG TIIIME!!!!! There, that's what you wanted isn't it? OK? Done? Yes? If I'm making mistakes, tell me, I can take it, but you don't have to word it so... nastily as has been done on my talk page.

Everything I did I did in good faith. I deleted dozens of "ashiagniaw" and linkspam articles. I cleared out the speedy catogory backlog. I trawled through Special:Newpages looking for all manner of things to start Vfds on sometime this morning.

And what do I get in return? "Hey, great job, but, um, be careful with X, Y and Z next time"? Well, yes... and no.

Some of the warnings I've gotten have been very kind and forgiving, explaining precisely what was wrong and what was right and what to do in future... but some have been brief and barbed and evidently written after sucking multiple lemons. Yes you know who you are.

In closing, yes I overstepped myself and misunderstood the new criteria... but I expected better treatment from you-know-who. If I was weak and insecure I'd probably be quietly sobbing in the corner right now. Oh, yes, good job there.

--Just to clarify, no I'm not angry, no I'm not hurt, just... quite, quite disappointed. Garrett 01:08, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for cleaning up some of the piles of crap people leave around the project. I have absolute confidence everything you did was done in a good faith understanding of the rules. Snowspinner 01:30, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

Seconded. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 02:36, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Master Thief Garrett is being just a tiny bit naughty here. He asks people to inform him if there is a problem with his deletions, and yet anybody who goes to his talk page will see that this is just what has been done. I urge him not to disregard these well intended criticisms, and to learn from his early mistakes. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 02:32, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I think as a rule if you have any doubt at all as to whether an article should be deleted, don't delete it. Nothing that comes even close to the borderline should be speedied. Take it to VfD or just ignore it. Everyking 03:51, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I just wanted to thank Tony for salvaging the Butt hook article, it's a topic very close to my heart. And I don't care if it's encyclopedic or not! What on earth was User:Master Thief Garrett thinking when he deleted it?!?!?!?!? --Scratch 14:48, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Dates

Wiki software renders dates put within linking brackets according the user's set preferences. For example:

• ] ] becomes 14 December 1999
• ] ] becomes December 14 1999

The two should be rendered identically. Note that for the Americans, even the proper comma is introduced.

On the other hand, if an extraneous space is inserted into the dates, as User:Jtdirl has been doing with articles such as George VI of the United Kingdom, they force a literal rendering of the date:

• ] ] - 14 December 1999
• ] ] - December 14 1999

User:Jtdirl has been doing this deliberately, using the first format, and is reverting any changes to put them in line with standard practice, even leaving an angry message with me calling such changes "vandalism". Other than forcing 'everyone to use a his personal date system, regardless of their personal preference settings, I don't see the point of this, nor do I see how the normal formats can be considered "vandalism" of any stripe. any opinions? --Calton | Talk 04:08, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

It seems, at first glance, as though we may agree for the first time ever. Everyking 04:21, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm more concerned about the astonishing lack of civility in this WP:LAME-worthy little war. Particularly in his role as admin, Jtdirl should exercise more care in throwing around accusations of vandalism. I'm willing to assume good faith and believe that Jtdirl inadvertently introduced (and reintroduced) the spaces in the date links because he wasn't careful about which version of the article he reverted to. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 16:44, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Votes for deletion/Anti-Semitism in Poland

This vote was closed, stating that the result was "keep the re-write" I dispute this, as does at least one other. By my own count -

Votes before pointing out/making the re-write

• Keep x 12
• Delete x 13
• Merge x 6

Votes after pointing out the re-write

• Delete x 13
• Keep x 4
• Merge x 2

Total votes

• Delete x 26
• Keep x 16
• Merge x 8

By no stretch of the imagination is 26:16 votes a majority for the 16 rather than the 26. It is my impression that the admin closing it was extremely partisan. I would like the VFD investigated for whether this was the correct result. ~~~~ 12:35, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

A merge vote counts as a keep, as it is a vote to preserve at least some of the content. Moreover if any of the content is merged the page must be kept for GFDL reasons. The deletion process is clear that a merge vote is a form of keep. Also VfD does not work by majority but rather by consensus, personally I doubt there is consensus to delete anything that gets 16 keep votes. - SimonP 17:06, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

The only occasion Simon's statement isn't true would be one of the rare occasions when there are so many votes that the 16 are not significant (e.g. 50 delete 16 keep would most likely get deleted). Thryduulf 17:23, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

In which case :

Votes before pointing out/making the re-write

• Keep x 18
• Delete x 13

Votes after pointing out the re-write

• Delete x 13
• Keep x 6

Total votes

• Delete x 26
• Keep x 24

Before the rewrite there was no consensus (18:13 is 58% vs 42%). After the re-write was pointed out, the votes are vast majority to delete. The overall result is still delete, although overall, there is not enough margin for this to be considered consensus. But it is certainly not keep. ~~~~ 17:27, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

• Unless people change their votes you can only count what they first said
• 13-6 is not consensus to delete.
• The page was deleted by User:ABCD. Guettarda 17:31, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
• The page was then undeleted by myself, and the debate reclosed as no consensus – ABCD✉ 17:59, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Should the undeletion not have gone to VfU first, rather than simply being undeleted and winding up with a VfU-like discussion here? -Splash 18:03, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
    • NB. I only say this because of the controversial nature of how to interpret the votes and the fact that 13/19 is, if barely, the 2/3 consensus normally needed. Obviously, 26-24 is a no-consensus that should be immediately undeleted. -Splash 18:07, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
    • Normally, it prob. would go to VfU, but, I feel that I should be able to undo a mistake I may have made in the process, which is what I did – ABCD✉ 18:18, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
      • Oh yeah, sorry. Not paying proper attention. -Splash 18:26, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I am confused - 13/19? Where do those numbers come from - they don't resemble the numbers posted here already. Even so - 13-19 is 60-40, nowhere near consensus. Anyway, I thought consensus was >75%. Guettarda 18:13, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant 13 out of 19 (=13+6 after rewrite). And no, VfD consensus is usually, but not always, 2/3 or more, as described loosely WP:DP. -Splash 18:26, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

• There is no consensus to delete the article. However, given the amount of 'delete' or 'merge' votes, it sounds like a good idea to do something with the article - copyediting, rewriting, merging and discussing on the talk page are all good possibilities. None of those requires any kind of vote, just be WP:BOLD.
• To answer Guettarda's question, VFD consensus is up to the discretion of the closing admin. It is generally agreed upon to lie between 67% and 75%, but can differ depending on vote comments, alleged sockpuppetry, changes to the article halfway past, etc. It's an art rather than a science. Radiant_>|< 23:12, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

• • 13 out of 19 is 68% (which lies between 67% and 75%) ~~~~ 00:20, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
    • Yes, but 26 out of 50 is not. You're jumping to the conclusion that the older votes must all be discounted, and that is a rather unlikely assumption. Radiant_>|< 07:55, July 24, 2005 (UTC)
      • As I said before - no consensus, not a consensus to keep. ~~~~ 17:42, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
        • Either results in a keep. What are you arguing about? ] 17:44, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

• Please, read the discussion at VfD page carefully. The article was created by an anon as extremely POV. Therefore all votes to merge meant to delete the article but not to abandon topics related to anti-Semitism in Poland. All the topics already exist in much expanded form in articles like History of the Jews in Poland and Anti-Semitism There are 28 votes to delete. 8 to merge, what in this case mean not to keep a separate article under this name, so should be treated as delete as well. 16 votes to keep. Over 69% of people didn’t want to keep the article. The article even now, after some cleaning is still very POV and offensive. It should be deleted. If you think there is anything in the article, what is lacking in the two others and should be merged, please, point it out, otherwise delete the article. --SylwiaS 18:53, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Good. Since the content seems to be a subset of Anti-Semitism, I'm trying to merge it there. Hopefully this will end the discussion as the spirit of the discussion was to merge anyway. Most of those who voted "delete" did so because they did not consider anything there being worth merging. I second that but here you go. --Wojsyl 20:27, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

When delete votes means to keep

Tabulation of vote results Misplaced Pages:Votes for deletion/Anti-Semitism in Poland by admins User:ABCD, User:Woohookitty have exposed the weakness of the VfD process. IMO, the process, designed to weed out garbage, has failed while dealing with a legitimate topic by leaving too much room for personal interpretations of the VfD rules, especially while counting the Merge votes. The intention of majority voters casting Merge vote was clearly defined as to incorporate the article’s material with the existing History of the Jews in Poland and Anti-Semitism thus deleting article in question. Yet, in the Orwellian (George Orwell) tradition, admins have tabulated their votes as Keep. Additionally, article’s subject has a significant presence in Anti-Semitism under Anti-Semitism#Anti-Semitism_in_Poland_until_Partitions (1,841 words as of 7/24/05) and Anti-Semitism#Poland (308 words as of 7/24/05) subsections as well as in History of the Jews in Poland. What is a purpose of creating a redundant, and in this case, POV’ed version of this content? User:Piotrus, in his vote, has proposed splitting the content of Anti-Semitism into Anti-Semitism+specific country articles. However, his proposal has not gained support neither from the voters nor editors of Anti-Semitism (see: Talk:Anti-Semitism).

Furthermore, 4 votes by Misplaced Pages:Sock puppet and users with a minimal contributions to the English wiki should have been nullified according to Misplaced Pages:Deletion policy and a precedence of the Talk:Gdansk/Vote (when votes from users with less than 20 contribution were invalidated).

Following my rationale, the results of the voting has been the following:

• Keep (14): 1. TheUnforgiven, 2. mysekurity, 3. Splash, 4. Harmil, 5. Xoloz, 6. Deror, 7. Grue, 8. Briangotts, 9. Kloniumus, 10. Falphin, 11. TheCoffee, 12. GabrielF, 13. wayland, 14. Goodoldpolonius2

• Delete (28): 1. Halibutt, 2. Balcer, 3. Space Cadet, 4. jamesgibbon, 5. Ttyre, 6. SylwiaS, 7. JamesBurns, 8. Thorsten1, 9. Radiant, 10. mikka, 11. Tomer, 12. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus, 13. Akumiszcza, 14. Ttyre, 15. Irishpunktom, 16. Pibwl, 17. Forseti, 18. A.J., 19. Molobo, 20. Cautious, 21. Wojsyl, 22. Taw, 23. Tirid Tirid, 24. Schwartz und Weiss, 25. Rubezahl, 26. V1, 27. logologist, 28. rafikk

• Merge and redirect (7) (6 to merge with History of the Jews in Poland): 1. Pburka, 2. brenneman, 3. Avihu, 4. Chris 73, 5. Pavel Vozenilek, 6. Kpalion, 7. mikka

• Invalidated votes (4): 1. 208.54.14.65, 9 contributions including 3 for VfD, 2. Signature unprintable, no other contributions, 3. Gilgamesh he, low contributions, 4. Hbk3, sock puppet - no other contributions

Combining the Delete with Merge votes gives 35 vs. 14 to Keep a 72% vs. 28% majority - clear Consensus to delete.

For the future votes, I propose to include wiki’s VfD definition of a Merge vote and eligible voters rule to be included within the header of VfD voting pages. Otherwise, the process might create, like in this case, a number of disenfranchised voters questioning both the purpose and a large margin of voting interpretations by admins. --Ttyre 17:24, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

• Personally, I wouldn't have combined anything. A vote to delete is different than a vote to merge (which, as was pointed out, is more like a keep than a delete). In that case, you then have 28 to delete vs 14 to keep vs 8 to merge. No consensus. --Kbdank71 17:57, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

• Combining point has been made by User:Splash in the discussion above. Without Merge, Delete vs. Keep voting is 28 vs. 14 - a 2/3 majority to Delete. Do you think a re-vote with only Keep and Delete options or asking Merge voters to decide between these two options would be appropriate? --Ttyre 18:13, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

• Why must the merge votes either be combined or not count? Why can't there be three major points of view? Sometimes, there is no consensus. --Kbdank71 18:35, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

• merge means keep. No discussion! See Misplaced Pages:Guide to Votes for deletion#Voting shorthands : "Merge to Example" is a shorthand for "Keep and merge the content into Example, leaving a redirect afterwards". And merge and delete is considered Incompatible vote Misplaced Pages:Guide to Votes for deletion#Incompatible votes. -- Cate 18:49, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

• Thank you for pointing me to this Guide, yet this is not where the header on VfD pages links to (Misplaced Pages:Votes_for_deletion). It would be fair for the future voters to be directed to Misplaced Pages:Guide to Votes for deletion#Voting shorthands instead and be educated about WP-speak; don't you think so? --Ttyre 01:24, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

• IMO, VfD only has final say in the disposition of an article when the outcome is "delete". Consensus to delete requires just that (granted, the definition of consensus is pretty nebulous in practice), not just "more people wanted to delete than wanted any other option chosen". A consensus to delete is binding; the article is deleted and that's the end of it (barring the relatively rare VfU). Any other position is shorthand for "do not delete, and this is what I would like to see done with the material". Merges and redirects are actions that can be done and reverted by any editor; consensus for those actions can be established on VfD, but also on the Talk page, or anywhere else. If an admin closing a VfD interprets consensus to merge, as an admin s/he makes the call not to delete, and as an editor decides to merge it based on expressed consensus. I see here 28 "delete" and 21 "do something else"; looks like "no consensus to delete", and in fact no consensus to do anything else either. (I have no comment on the article itself.) Mindspillage (spill yours?) 19:01, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

It does appear the problem has been solved by a merger. I actually wanted to keep the rewritten version of the article, but definetly the older anon version was good only for delete, and good riddance to it. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 18:40, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm currently wondering why the Keep votes by Ejdzej (talk · contribs), Molobo (talk · contribs), Tirid Tirid (talk · contribs), Schwartz und Weiss (talk · contribs), and (perhaps) rafikk (talk · contribs) weren't discounted if "low contribution" editors is a valid reason to discount a vote (whether because the user is from a different Misplaced Pages or because sockpuppetry is suspected). Personally, I find the unusually high volume of low-edit votes (and other sock-puppet indicators) on this VfD (and related VfD's) to be quite disturbing. P.S. 23 is a bit less than 28. HKT 23:22, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

• Total contributions of questioned Delete voters: Ejdzej 64, Molobo 125, Tirid Tirid 35, Schwartz und Weiss 31, Rafikk 71 - the vote is still 28 Delete. See Talk:Gdansk/Vote precedence for guidelines on nullified votes. --Ttyre 01:24, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Indeed, Molobo's contribution history doesn't look like a sockpuppet (some of his earliest edits were on these VfDs, and that had originally aroused my suspicion); I hadn't looked at his contribs for a while. However, a careful look at the contribs of the others (except maybe Rafikk, as I stated) presents strong indications of sockpuppetry. (24/25 Keeps, then). HKT 02:28, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Terrorism (again)

Terrorism has been locked without an NPOV tag. An NPOV dispute exists for this article and should be noted on the locked page. The introductory language of the terrorism article is of historic generalization which would make it a secondary source if the assertions of the introduction were based on axioms or primary sources.
Even if secondary source creation were allowed in Misplaced Pages (which it is not), there is no evidence to support many of the opinions that are derived. --Zephram Stark 19:45, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

moved from WP:RFPP - I don't have time to look into this at all, and RFPP isn't the place for it anyway. Thryduulf 23:10, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

See also Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/3RR#User:212.88.98.187. El_C 23:19, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Strange how this board repeatedly times out while other articles edit fine. El_C 23:19, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Spoofed names

How are we addressing spoofed names? I just ran across user:WilImcw, who has also cloned my talk and user pages. Do I file an RfC or is it obvious enough for a speedy deletion? Thanks, -Willmcw 21:42, July 24, 2005 (UTC)

This dude has impersonated several users, including Solipsist. I've blocked WilImcw and put speedy tags on his user and talk pages (which are just copies of yours, and so clearly vandalism). -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:48, July 24, 2005 (UTC)

• Block the users indefinitely, then tag the user pages with {{impostor}}. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 23:24, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

• • Thank you both for the info and the help. Cheers, -Willmcw 23:54, July 24, 2005 (UTC)

Should we also protect the pages, so the blocked imposter doesn't remove the tag (per that nasty new bug that lets them edit their talk page?) -- Essjay · Talk 00:02, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

That's not a bug, it was a feature, apparently. But yes that could be a problem. Maybe just watch it and protect only if they try to change it, masquerading users probably abandon their identities once they are useless (i.e., blocked). Garrett 02:43, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, yeah, I know, it's a "feature"; it's a "feature" that causes more trouble than it does good. ; - ) -- Essjay · Talk 03:58, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

This misfeature is being discussed at Misplaced Pages:New features. --cesarb 18:05, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

User:Christ est les quotidiens

I seen this user page in RC being edited by an anon. The text is not bad, just in French translation. I noticed that only anon's edit the page, and there are no contribs. So I'm not sure what to think of the userpage, if anything? Seems like a religious billboard. Any thoughts? ∞Who?¿? 10:36, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Well I'm afraid my French isn't very good but surely the username is a violation of policy? -- Francs2000 | Talk File:Uk flag large.png 14:02, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

It is probably a machine translation, or a very poor one in any case. "Christ est les quotidiens" means "Christ is the daily newspapers"; if you see what I mean by "poor translation". The rest of the text is made of incoherent rants and citations. Rama 14:09, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

I don't think that's anons editing the page, but just one anon, with so far two IPs in the same range (editing from Switzerland, it seems). OK, so, an anon with no contribs except to a userpage for an account—if there is an account by the name—which also has no contribs? I'm quite tempted to incur my first administrative action shitstorm by speedy deleting this page. "Nothing to do with creating an encyclopedia" isn't a speedy criterion, agreed, but isn't it kind of implied? Meanwhile, I've left a note at User talk:Christ est les quotidiens. Bishonen | talk 20:44, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

delete away :) this is just kooky graffiti. If somebody cries bloody murder over your deleting this nonsense, we can always undelete it. dab (ᛏ) 22:44, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

It isn't a user page at all. At best, it's an IP editor's misunderstanding of the term "user page." I think he or she has come to the conclusion that one's private sandbox page is created at "user:" plus the name of the page you want. Given what this page is, it will, upon publication, be immediately VfD'd. It's a collection of Bible prophecy coming true in the newspapers sort of thing, it seems to me. Properly, one would send it to VfD, but the problem there is that the current group of VfD voters seems congenitally incapable of reading a nomination. If you said, "This is not a user page," they'd vote "Keep! It's a user page! Leave it alone!" So, it's speedy delete as webhosting (Misplaced Pages is not a free web host) or nothing. Geogre 01:45, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. Here's a similar one RIDCSP (talk · contribs). Two edits by one IP, which created the page. ∞Who?¿? 06:58, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Update on Christ is the daily newspapers: a third IP has edited the page, 80.218.237.225, which is in a different range but resolves to the same Swiss ISP. Nobody has commented on my talk page message. Step two today: an explicit statement on the "userpage" itself (I doubt that they know from talk pages, and I don't think they're ever logged in, to get a "you have new messages" message) that I'm planning to delete. Watch this space for step three, the actual abuse of admin powers, RSN. I'll take a look at User:RIDCSP, too. Bishonen | talk 14:49, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Hey, itchyfingers (=Geogre)! I was gonna abuse admin powers! :-( Bishonen | talk 11:23, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Hehe, well you could do RIDCSP, it looks more like it was meant to be an article, unless they have started contributing already. ∞Who?¿? 20:27, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

You're right, it was meant to be an article, no doubt. I've cleaned up and NPOV'd the text and created the article, making the userpage a redirect. I feel virtuous. :-) Bishonen | talk 10:19, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Good, hate to see good edits gone to waste. Now if I could find out the policy on userpages being completely in another language. ∞Who?¿? 10:24, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

I don't think we have a policy on that, and I'm not sure that we need one. I imagine that the same rules apply as for everyone else's user pages—editors have a pretty much free hand unless the material is highly offensive, patently disruptive, or otherwise damaging. We have quite a few editors for whom English is not their first language; I don't see the harm in a non-English user page. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 12:31, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Me either really, I just wanted to make sure there wasn't any policies on it. I wouldn't have asked, but I noticed anon's editing a userpage, and have no idea what it was only because it was in a type of cyrillic or script. Thanks. ∞Who?¿? 08:07, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

User:Irate personal attack parole

The AC has enacted the personal attack parole provision in Irate's case. As of 13:08, 25 July 2005 (UTC), if Irate makes any personal attack he may be blocked for up to a week. - David Gerard 13:11, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

My personal suggestion (in no way enforceable) would be to start light and work upward as needed. This gives the offender a chance to learn what is considered a personal attack and what isn't - David Gerard 13:11, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

And of course what is a personal attack? I think that any admin carrying out such a block should discuss it here first and give us several hours to consider it before implementation, so that the decision isn't a matter of individual subjectivity. Everyking 05:39, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

I suspect that you have not researched the subject of Irate in the smallest dot and so are talking out your hat - David Gerard 10:26, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

And furthermore, it is explicitly a matter of individual subjectivity, as the precise wording is: "wherein Irate will be temporarily banned for a short period of up to one week if he makes any edits that an administrator judges to be personal attacks." Gosh darn that judgement thing! That's what a "short-leash personal attack parole" means - David Gerard 10:30, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

I don't agree that it should be up to a single admin. Such a block could be hotly controversial. So it should be discussed here first. If I went around acting according to my subjective judgment about these things, I'd be before the ArbCom in a week. But the hardliners are supposed to get a free pass to ban somebody based on their own judgment? No, that's senseless. We have this forum here for discussion about admin actions; let's use it. If the block can't get a consensus here, it shouldn't be done. Or do you disagree with that principle? Everyking 03:59, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter if you don't agree it should be up to a single administrator. That is the judgment that was passed. If you feel a block is controversial, by all means bring it up here, but there is no need to discuss every block before implementation, in my opinion. — Knowledge Seeker দ 05:35, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

Our opinions differ. In the case of differing opinions, it would seem, logically, that we go with discussion by default. Everyking 06:06, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm always in favor of discussion. But community consensus already seems pretty clear in favor of following Arbitration Committee decisions. And I don't think this is the proper forum to challenge the authority or rectitude of the Arbitration Committee (and I know we disagree on this as well). — Knowledge Seeker দ 06:11, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

When did I say anything about not following ArbCom decisions? I said we should discuss and agree that Irate has indeed made a personal attack before blocking. I didn't say he shouldn't be blocked for personal attacks. Everyking 06:15, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Hey, I just did some looking around and noticed something: Irate is already blocked! He was blocked by Snowspinner on July 25, the same day this was originally posted here. Yet Snowspinner has said nothing to justify his actions, much less engage in the reaching the kind of admin consensus I proposed above. Was he hoping to keep it a secret? I put heavy odds on Gerard also knowing about it and failing to mention it. Misplaced Pages is supposed to prioritize consensus, in case these two (the arb and his enforcer) haven't noticed. Everyking 04:16, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Yet Snowspinner has said nothing to justify his actions, much less engage in the reaching the kind of admin consensus I proposed above - actually, I think this comment on Irate's talk page sums up Snowspinner's reason for banning him quite nicely. In the future, you might want to do a modicum of research before engaging in casual slander. And I think you owe him an apology. →Raul654 05:12, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

I meant here. The message on Irate's talk is how I found out about the block in the first place (how else would I?). And I think you owe the project a few dozen apologies, but that's beside the point. Everyking 06:06, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

So you think the following is not a personal attack? Further more your should unblock me and resign your adminship, you are not fit to be incharge of anything --Kbdank71 15:50, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

The way it is phrased certainly could make it a personal attack. Again, I don't believe Irate should get a pass on personal attacks. Everyking 18:19, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

So then I'm not understanding what your problem with this is. The Arbcom left it up to the admins, Snowspinner was following the Arbcom's decision. What is there to discuss? If you disagree with the Arbcom's decision, perhaps you should bring it up with them. --Kbdank71 18:46, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Well, Snowspinner isn't the only admin who thought Irate should be have been blocked. Have you researched the background on this user? He was banned for three months for personal attacks, and then when he came back it didn't take long for him to fall back into his old habits. So he was placed on personal attack parole. He made the choice to persist, so he was blocked. (Oh, and did I mention he's been banned from everywhere from IRC to the mailing lists to meta?). Posting a note here is, of course, an option worth bearing in mind for admins, but Irate's case is fairly straightforward. — Matt Crypto 18:26, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

By all means we can discuss it here, but I see no problems with him being blocked before it is mentioned here. violet/riga (t) 18:53, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

I think the issue has been settled:

23:52, July 27, 2005, Jimbo Wales blocked Irate (expires indefinite) (contribs) (unblock) (Personal conversation in IRC in which he assures me that our rules are rubbish and that he intends to continue "following" them as he always has)

You don't get more blocked than that. -- Essjay · Talk 04:08, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

I've posted on his talk page asking him to discuss his block here. Everyking 06:46, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

I think you're the only person that disagrees with the block. As one of those that had problems with him (including via email) I wholeheartedly agree that he has not intention of becoming a good editor and his positive additions are few and far between. Starve the troll. violet/riga (t) 09:11, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Do I disagree with Snowspinner's block? Not necessarily, I just wanted him to present and discuss the issue here. I do, on the other hand, disagree with Jimbo's block, since it's outside the ArbCom decision. We will have grown up a bit when we start giving this kind of thing proper deliberation and exposure to community feeling before action is taken. Everyking 09:41, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

This has had proper deliberation. The community sees irate as a PITA. That's why the AC put in the personal attack parole. Iate threatened to disrupt wikipedia. That's why jimbo blocked him. There is nothing for Jimbo to discuss here. Theresa Knott (a tenth stroke) 09:59, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

couldn't somebody write an Everykingbot, posting things like "I do not necessarily disagree, but want to draw attention to some basic human rights here" on every topic on this board? It would save Everyking a lot of typing :p dab (ᛏ) 10:32, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Everyking, if you had had any experience with Irate, you would know that he is a thoroughly disruptive, unpleasant user, who delights in causing other users headaches. Why should we all have to wait for the ArbComm to get through the lengthy process of banning him for a year? He's been banned once already, and that did no good. Jimbo has the ultimate sanction, and he used it well within his rights. He is perfectly entitled to do this, and he has my full support. ] 10:42, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Drink! --Carnildo 07:24, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Jimbo's mailing list post on the topic: . — Matt Crypto 08:27, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

• Please everyone, cut out this mockery of Everyking. How can you expect him to behave civilly if you are adding these "drink" and "let's make an Everykingbot" comments? Sjakkalle (Check!) 10:37, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Because megabytes of reason, argument, analogies, peer pressure, commentaries, advice, RFCs, and TWO ArbCom sanctions haven't put the tiniest dent in his sense of entitlement or proclamations of persecution: it's as if George Bush suddenly became a Misplaced Pages editor. Since being nice or trying persuasion haven't worked, maybe a little shame and mockery could be the clue-by-four he desperately needs. --Calton | Talk 12:20, July 28, 2005 (UTC)
    • Also, why exactly does Everyking, regardless of the subject of the discussion, always bring up Snowspinner? Radiant_>|< 17:23, July 29, 2005 (UTC)

User:Zapatancas and User:SqueakBox

User:Zapatancas persists in using his user page as a platform to launch personal attacks against me.; I have received a lot of abuse from this user in the past, starting when he used SquealingPig (talk · contribs) to launch a vicious attack against me, SqueakBox 15:40, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

Hello everybody. I am a user from Spain who has tried to do useful contributions in the article José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero. SqueakBox has harassed me repeatedly. He insulted me explicitly in my user page as it is found here (in any case, it is the version of my talk page of 17:16, 15 July 2005 by SqueakBox). He said "Fuck off Nazi scum".

I have described the harassment I suffer in the 14:59 26 July 2005 version of my user page, which has been vandalized by him . He claims that I am abusing him and that a page is not an excuse for a vicious and unjustified personal attack. The reason I included the description of his attacks on me in my user page is that he vandalized it when I have not created it, as can be checked in the history page, identifying me with a blocked vandal I have no relation to as I have said him once and again.

I have always tried to be polite with everybody. I simply believe that SqueakBox could have some mental problem because of how he behaves (for example, he once talked about supposed death threats from other users in his user page what I considered absurd after reading it). I have not tried to be hard on nobody and much less on a sick person (if that is the case), I have simply tried to express what I consider to be the source of the problem.

Thank you for your attention. Zapatancas 16:03, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

How exactly is This user seems to suffer from a mental disorder (I am talking totally seriously) not a vicious personal attack, the latest in a long, long line. Calling me a sick person is out of order, and I want Zapatancas to stop. Also SWquealingPig made his vicious attacks moments after Zapatancas and I had an edit war. His denial of being SquealingPig is not credible. RexJudica\ta has been permanently blocked for death threats by CesarB, SqueakBox 16:38, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

I am from Spain and my English is not perfect. I believe SqueakBox suffers a mental disorder because, among other reasons, he has included in his user page passages expressing he was receiving death threats from other users what I considered totally absurd. If I sounded rude in English I am sorry but I do not master the language and I have only tried to express my opinion honestly.

Effectively SqueakBox tried to start an edit war after destroying some articles I have contributed to without giving any logical reason. There was not edit war because I did not try to recover them after he destroyed them for a second time. Zapatancas 16:40, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

SqueakBox has just removed the following text from the article José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero some minutes after I introduced it:

Zapatero has been accused of telling the Spanish media in the aftermath of the attacks that suicidal bombers had been found among the victims (something discarded by all the specialists). When he was asked in December 2004 about the issue by the Parliamentary Investigative Committee created to find the truth about the attacks he declared that he did not "remember" what he had said.

I have tried to describe an objective fact related to Zapatero's biography. I have included a source to an article in Spanish I spent some time to find for those who may not have previous information about the fact to help them contrast the information. However, my contribution has been removed providing no reason only because I added it.

The article has not been updated since SqueakBox accessed it for the first time some months ago and removed everything he pleased. He continues removing everything usually giving no reasons at all.

Is that the kind of behavior encouraged in the Misplaced Pages? Zapatancas 16:40, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

I think this user should not acuse me of having mental problems. He is viciously attackoing me. Why should I tolerate his abuse. I don't have amy illnesses. I just want Zapatancas to cease attacking me and gegt over the fact that I edited his work months ago. is he incapable of not attacking m,e. CesarB permanently blocked RexJudicata for death threats. So it is Zapatancas who trivialises other trolls and his own vicious attacks, SqueakBox 17:09, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

At 10.23am on May 5 Zapatancas reverts my edits here. At 10.47 SquealingPig appears, complaining about me on the Zapatero talk page here. I revert him at 10.50 here. He then gets in a rage and attacks me as SquealingPig many timesw in a below the belt fashion, starting here, SqueakBox 17:19, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

He then insults me saying A question, do you live in Honduras because your family could not stand you any longer? here. I reacted to this by telling him to fuck off you Nazi troll, mild in comparison. He is now using his personal page to accuse me of being mentally ill. I have not attacked other than this one time. I think I am being very patient and tolerant to a nasty interne t troll, SqueakBox 17:23, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

I advise to search in Google for SqueakBox and vandalism (Click here for example). I got 678 results. SqueakBox is getting in continuous problems with everybody and he is always accusing others. I have taken a look at his "contributions" and it is clear he always provokes other users on purpose. He never tries to explain his deletions. And that is difficult to justify. He has a huge experience here and knows others can get angry if they are not told why their effort (usually evidently honest) are removed. He really looks for the excitement of arguing and humiliating other people. And, of course, a lot of times his page has been vandalized. Of course, that only adds to his fun as he used every attack to fuel his continuous harassment.

It is not true he has attacked me only once. He harasses me continuously. Today he vandalized my user page eliminating all the text in it, he has added a lot of obscene comments in my talk page, he has reverted my edit in the Zapatero's article as I have already reported, he has accused me of being unable to write a NPOV article (this can be found in the Talk page of Zapatero), he has said I hate Zapatero (what is completely absurd as I do not know him personally), he has used improper language in a comment addressed to me (he has used the word bulls**t), he has called me a troll and he has removed the headline User:SqueakBox I added to report his mistreatment. And that only for today. Zapatancas 18:10, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Excuse me but it was you who made those obscene commenbts, I was reminding you of what you are really like. Yes, you are not the only troll here. So whatr dioes that prove. That I don't like POV warriors,. and they get angry when I remove their POV. If you can't handle your work being mercilessly edited don't contribute. It was not fun for me when yopu attacked me and my dog as squealingPig. Maybe you were having fun, but I wasn't. I have not vandalised your user page, I have removed your deeply offensive personal attack against me. Misplaced Pages do not give you that page to launch persobnal attacks against users you don\'t like. You have used endless insults against me. just take responsibility for your actions and stop trolling. As I have elucidated above, you are SquealingPig, and you have deeply insulted me on many occassions, SqueakBox 18:19, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

RickK and vandalism brought up 954 pages, while with SlimVirgin it was 779. I am in good company. Zapatancas needs to differentiate between vandalisers and those who fight the vandalism of users like SquealingPig, who only got 5 google hits, substantially less than the number of vandalsims he did, SqueakBox 18:34, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

Special:Contributions/84.65.183.7

Re-emergence of formerly banned User:B1link82, calling people cocks and the like. Would someone please handle this. Thanks...  ALKIVAR™ 16:14, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

this page is f'd up

http://en.wikipedia.org/George_and_the_Dragon

What 146.186.230.234 (talk · contribs) was trying to get across here was that the page had been vandalised on 22 July and no-one had noticed; the page continued to be vandalised up to today. I have reverted the multiple edits and will continue to watch the page. -- Francs2000 | Talk File:Uk flag large.png 19:21, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

User:LaLa

Has been creating articles with material clearly copied from outside websites. Insists the articles are not CopyVios, and is removing the copyvio notices. Jayjg 19:28, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Has mysteriously disappeared forever. Snowspinner 19:31, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

• From what I've seen, I'm more inclined to side with the user in question. This looks more like a case of a confused newbie than a delibrate vandal. The user in question has created a new account, and claims to have been harrassed by Fawcett5. I don't know whether or not that's actually the case, but the notes left on the above account's talkpage seem to bear that out. I think that if there is fault here, it isn't all just on one side of the incident. --Chanting Fox 03:14, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
• An INFINITE block? Snowspinner, I'm no admin, but an infinite block for copyvios seems a bit harsh. Are you sure that was warranted? --Chanting Fox 03:24, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
  • If an account appears to have been set up only for policy violations, indefinite blocks are entirely in order - David Gerard 18:33, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
    • But it did not appear that way. That's irrelevant. Everyking 18:37, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
• I'm afraid that I'm going with the blocked user on this one, despite the copyvios. The infinite block is a clear violation of blocking policy and if not bad-faith is almost certaintly far too severe a punishment. The user in question appears to have been here for less than a month, and is almost certainly NOT doing this to cause trouble for people. In fact, she seems more confused than disruptive to me. --Chanting Fox 03:35, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
  • It is only by the grace of Phil that you have not been permabanned as well. Be thankful for that, and question no more. Everyking 03:50, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
• Ok... I'm stumped. Exactly what is that supposed to mean? --Chanting Fox 03:51, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
  • It was a joke. He bans people for the equivalent of looking at him funny. Everyking 04:01, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
    • Was that really necessary, Everyking? For what it's worth, I agree that the indefinite block is too heavy given the circumstances, but I'm sure that Snowspinner will review his decision based on Fawcett5's polite note on Snowspinner's talk page. File an RFC on Snowspinner if you want to, but keep your snide remarks to yourself. I might suggest that you examine Fawcett5's comments to Snowspinner as an example of how to phrase constructive criticism. You're an excellent editor and admin in virtually all other regards—why can't you maintain at least a veneer of civility (or just remain stolidly silent) here? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 04:23, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Drink! Radiant_>|< 17:25, July 29, 2005 (UTC)

• I have unblocked User:LaLa, based on Fawcett5's remarks and my understanding of the blocking policy. However, I have left the autoblock in place, as a short-term block seems justified based on the disruptive behaviour. I've also notified Snowspinner of what I've done, so he can review the situation before the residual autoblock expires. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 04:23, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

User:DrZoidberg

Has been messing with the wikipedia:sandbox for a while now, but managed to find a way to break it completely... The devs in #wikimedia-tech don't seem interested, but it's quite worrying, at least to me :-) Dan100 (Talk) 20:29, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

Left a warning on the user's talk page. Y0u (Y0ur talk page) (Y0ur contributions) 20:37, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

Hmm. Maybe they should institute a hard page size limit on wikipedia articles? --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 20:49, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

Didn't DrZoidberg move the sandbox a little while ago, leading to a big mess? Looking at his contributions, he seems to only edit the sandbox. Wait—he also had a self-nomination for adminship. Warn him, and if he mucks up the sandbox again block him for disruption. He's not contributing anything useful. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 21:28, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

He's experimenting, which is what the Sandbox is for. ‡ Jarlaxle 02:40, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

Experimenting seems to be the only thing he does. --Deathphoenix 02:48, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

True, the sandbox is for experimentation. However, DrZoidberg (talk · contribs) hasn't contributed to any articles in his nine months on Misplaced Pages (See also Kate's count: ), and now he's broken the sandbox. He's soaking up bandwidth and server space, but has been tolerated because until recently he's not actually been acutely harmful. If he continues to not contribute and to do things that require cleanup, then he should be blocked. Misplaced Pages isn't his personal webspace or playground. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 02:55, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

He seems to be taking perverse pleasure in breaking the sandbox now:

• diff Edit summary: SANDBOX GO SQUISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
• diff Edit summary: So two sandbox self-destructions walk into a bar...
• diff Edit summary: So two sandbox self-destructions walk into a bar...

Keep an eye on this one.... TenOfAllTrades(talk) 17:58, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Sounds like it's time to block him. He's already been warned about not doing stuff like this. --Deathphoenix 20:39, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

I believe that we have tolerated more than we should already and have left a message on his talk page asking him to cease his edits to the sandbox entirely. If he continues to pose problems, he should be blocked. Because he is not a contributor to the encyclopedia, I don't believe there is any reason why he can't be blocked. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 21:12, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

I note that David Gerard has blocked Zoidberg indefinitely, a move I support. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 14:42, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Nooo, sandboxian! :( El_C 19:57, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

BTW, the devs explained what was happening - the software simply rejects the rendering of pages (or diffs) of a certain size to prevent the site bogging down; it's set up this way for ages. I guess the error message does say that if you think about it :-) Dan100 (Talk) 15:18, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

Well according to Misplaced Pages uses the Difference Engine. No wonder it's so slow! the wub "?/!" 19:44, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

User:Agiantman

Agiantman (talk · contribs) -- engaging in personal attacks, disruption, and uncompromising POV warring on Talk:Joseph Stalin (edit | ] | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Among other many other unpleasantries directed toward Trey Stone and me, he made the attack on Mikkalai (one of Misplaced Pages's most respected editors), even after several warnings.

• Mikka, you are clearly too much of a Stalin fan to be editing this article.--Agiantman 03:27, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Since directing him to the relevant policy pages on civility and NPOV have not worked, an administrator is responsible for enforcing them through a temp block, or at least a warning. 172 | Talk 04:30, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

I also want to add that the idea that Mikkalai is a Stalin fan is a joke. On the contrary, he has filled Misplaced Pages with documents, testimony and so forth that reflect poorly on Stalin, and the CPSU during the time Stalin was the general secretary of it. Mikkalai is not pro-Stalin, he is anti-Stalin. Unlike Agiantman however, he does not make personal attacks and he is not disruptive. While msot of his material is anti-Stalin, he makes sure all of it he puts in is referenced and factual, and in neutral language, letting facts speak for themselves. He is also willing to compromise. A look over Mikkalai's edit history over the past year will show most of what he has done is fill Misplaced Pages with evidence about Stalin's misdeeds. But at least he uses references, sources, facts and so forth. People like Agiantman just hysterically rant that a page which consensus was reached very carefully is POV. I myself think the page is too anti-Stalin, I don't agree with this in the opening: "collectivization triggered a bitter struggle of peasants against the authorities in many areas, which significantly contributed to famine and millions of peasant casualties, particularly in Ukraine." I know the consensus-building is a delicate balancing act, so I am waiting for everyone to work other issues out before I come in and point out my problems with this sentence. AGiantman walks in on day one and starts disrupting this article which it took a long time to reach consensus on, a consensus which is ongoing. He thinks he is more important than the dozen or so people trying to achieve consensus, he is even attacking his allies like Mikkalai, who is on the anti-Stalin side but is neutral, a consensus builder and does not do original research. Ruy Lopez 20:30, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

User:Siegerz

Vandalism at Talk:Islam and Human rights in the United States: appears to be a sockpuppet of the user Yuber who is under a temporary ban by the Arbitration Committee. This user also appears to be the exact same user as User:63.70.62.84. Existentializer 16:55, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Lawsuit threat by User:YusufIslam at Talk:Pardism

Looks like a no legal threats violation:

This kind of insensitive bigotry would, at best, get you sued. Deleting such an article is a form of religious hatred and should not happen. I have a good mind to sue you for wanting to do such a thing. -- User:YusufIslam on Talk:Pardism

User has no contributions worth speaking of. May be the same as User:82.34.57.87 who created the article. That address has a smattering of abusive conduct to its name, e.g. --FOo 18:31, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

The context suggests that the best solution to simply ignore this silly threat. mikka (t) 23:09, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Libellous Image Captions on User Page of User:Cognition

I've had a look at the user page of this individual. There are libellous statements on it about people like Donald Rumsfeld, Alan Greenspan and Queen Elizabeth II. They take the form of image captions. I have put a notice on the talk page of this individual telling them to remove the captions inside 24 hours otherwise I'll do it myself. Given this user's persistent 3RR violations, use of Misplaced Pages as a blog and now this libel I think quite a strong case can be made for a permanent ban. Please let me know if you agree. David Newton 22:20, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

I see nothing wrong with him expressing his opinions about non-wikipedians on his user page. --Golbez 22:33, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

OK, I've seen a lot of those same senitments in vandalism to those articles. Yeah, yeah, bla blah, "Schwarzenegger's a Nazi!" But wait a minute. Erm. Now, Peter Camejo, I mean Pete Camejo, a genocidal fascist? I mean Pete Camejo?! Dmcdevit·t 22:48, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

Precisely. He aimed too high. The ridiculousness of these statements makes them decidedly non-libelous. --Golbez 22:49, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

I suppose. It just, er... Pete Camejo?! Dmcdevit·t 23:23, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

"A written or pictorial statement which unjustly seeks to damage someone's reputation." I don't think any of these people are having their reputations damaged by Cognition's comments. -Thatdog 22:39, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Though lacking in taste, such commentary with regard to highly public figures falls far short of libel. I believe that the captions say more about User:Cognition's discernment than they do about any of the figures pictured. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 22:53, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Sigh...please allow me to make a personal attack: Cognition's political likes and dislikes exactly match those of Lyndon LaRouche, ie: he is parroting the sentiments of the "LaRouche movement". Like all followers of a cult of personality, Cognition doesn't really have personal opinions...LaRouche has them for him. Func( t, c ) 23:00, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

I am afraid phrases like "Hitler-like tyrant" may have wikipedia sued pants off. This is not a joke. Such comments about contemporaries must be removed immediately. mikka (t) 23:07, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

You can be afraid all you want, but I fail to see how that makes it true. --Golbez 23:11, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

I've always wondered why people think Misplaced Pages would be sued at all, and not the individual. I mean, it's not as if Misplaced Pages sanctions all the content it hosts, otherwise it would be sanctioning loads of vandalism at any one moment. Isn't the individual responsible for whatever they say and do (especially where it is their own user page involved)? Of course, IANAL, so that was probably some stupid/naive comment. Dmcdevit·t 23:23, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

It's because Misplaced Pages is the bigger target. Most likely, what will happen is that Misplaced Pages and the individual user will both be named as defendants, then after a lot of expensive legal wrangling to determine that Misplaced Pages does indeed fall under the "safe harbour" provisions of some law or other, Misplaced Pages will be dropped from the lawsuit. --Carnildo 00:08, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Frankly I think that it is a good thing that Cognition puts all of his chips on the table by making his opinion clear. It makes the nature of his edits easier to understand. As for Misplaced Pages getting sued because that page calls somebody a tyrant... you're joking right? --Bletch 23:47, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia, not a soapbox for trolls. We're perfectly within our rights to insist that he refrain from such behavior. Gamaliel 00:01, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Can you cite me policy which states that personal opinions about non-wikipedians are not allowed to be stated on one's own user page? --Golbez 00:10, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

All Wikipedians should have the right to express their political and/or philosophical views on their user pages. Leave it alone. Everyking 00:30, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Also: is the objection to the user page as a whole or only the bits condemning people who are still alive? I mean, I think most people would agree that Caligula was a "mass-murderous imperial Roman lunatic". Everyking 00:34, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Well, in the interest of accuracy, it's not just living people. Try Aristotle, Malthus, Locke, Galileo, Newton, Adam Smith, Kant, Hegel, Russel, and on and on. I think Caligula, Tiberius, Mussolini and the Nazis are the only ones anyone would ever consider agreeing. I mean, the Beatles are in there. Dmcdevit·t 00:57, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

A) All Wikipedians should not use their userpage to host philosophical manifestos having nothing to do with Misplaced Pages. B) I am considerably more offended by the comments about Kant and Aristotle than about the bit on Lieberman. C) I haven't looked lately, but if Cognition has managed to tone down his psychotic LaRouche advocacy, which is the real problem with him as a user, why not let the user page slide and call it "good enough for one day's work." Snowspinner 00:47, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

(I'm not a lawyer, so don't take this as a legal opinion) It's also perhaps worth noting that the US and UK libel laws are significantly different. Misplaced Pages's servers are hosted in the US, so if there's any suing to be done I'd image it would have to be under US law. In the US, you can say pretty much anything you want about a public figure and, I gather, this is not the case in the UK. This difference might be behind some of the different views on this issue. -- Rick Block (talk) 01:50, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages can hope - and can even try to assure -- that it is sued where it is hosted, but there's no guarantee it won't be sued wherever it's distributed. Ask Vanity Fair, a U.S. magazine sued for libel -- successfully -- in Britain by a Polish director residing in France and unwilling to enter England for fear of extradition... Misplaced Pages has no need to host inflammatory speech which has nothing to do with building an encyclopedia. - Nunh-huh 04:16, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

I've removed the offensive section, since Cognition hasn't edited in two weeks, and I suspect he's gone away. Snowspinner 04:26, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

Even if Misplaced Pages was sued in Britan and the British courts awarded Jimbo's house to the plaintiff, they'd have to get a US court to enforce it, and that's quite unlikely. A British court decision has no force in the United States without a US court decision to enforce it. (Then again, I'm not a "real" lawyer.) -- Essjay · Talk 04:29, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

I think just about every Wikipedian who has created a userpage with content that expresses their own views, if one finds them offensive, then don't visit the page. Unless they are making direct attacks against a user or specific racial comments, then there is no harm. There is no difference in these comments then that of the Opinion cartoons. As far as Vanity fair getting sued, they are a corporate magazine expressing its or the editors views, and not a personal userpage. Especially since a Polish director not a public figure sued them (yes I think some directors can be considered public figures, but not the majority of them). ∞Who?¿? 04:32, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Well, I enjoyed the original version (before deletion), quite creative if misguided. And public figures can't sue for almost anything (that's why the tabloids are still in business). --Noitall 04:36, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

"Public figures can't sue for almost anything": simply not true outside of the U.S. Liberace won his libel suit in Britain when a reviewer merely insinuated he might be gay. - Nunh-huh 04:40, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

The suggestion that anyone could be sued over opinions expressed on a member's user page is preposterous. The practice of editing other members' user pages is nothing more than sophomoric vandalism, the more reprehensible when cloaked in the guise of administrative propriety.

Cognition ought to be commended for disclosing his POV with such candor. Would that others would be as forthcoming, particularly those surreptitious types who routinely abuse adminstrative authority by selective banning members, or protecting particular versions of articles, in the service of their POV allies. The manner in which some conduct POV warfare using administrative intrigues, shunning honest debate, is a form of corruption which has hurt Misplaced Pages. --HK 20:50, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

anonymous vandal attack

adsl-11-21-184.mia.bellsouth.net 65.11.21.184

A person using above IP has been vandalizing my articles amd making false and damaging comments. I cannot follow yoru process because thsi vandal is not registered so it is an anonymous person. Can you please help me by banning the person? He made terrible. false, damaging comments that are despicable and ruining me. It is a terrible experience to have someone do this with no way to reach them. Thank you,

Dixie Randock

• The poster of this complaint, still not content with other people editing her advertisements articles, has now resorted to legal threats. - Thatdog 18:45, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

(some of these remarks may be redundant, I had an edit conflict with Thatdog above.)

The anon user who left this notice (63.227.103.140 (talk · contribs), presumably Dixie Randock or someone related to her) has been removing apparently factual statements from the article about her. Apparently she has been accused (repeatedly) in the press of operating one or more diploma mills; she is continuing to remove references to this (external links to news articles, and a descriptive paragraph) from Dixie Randock. Normally this would be a matter for RfC, but she has also been leaving legal threats.

• Legal threat directed at User:65.11.21.184, on User talk:65.11.21.184; link to revision. In part, the message reads "We are tracing this vandal's IP...and we will take legal actions."
• Edit to Dixie Randock diff, edit summary: "I have turned this over to my attorney as defamation and harassment."

I shouldn't take any admin action here as I have become something of a party to the dispute (I VfD'd Dixie Randock a little while ago). Could someone have an outside look at the situation with this editor? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:50, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

User:Rhobite has already blocked User:63.227.103.140 for making legal threats. She was close to her fourth revert anyway... - jredmond 19:13, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

I did edit the article but I don't have a problem blocking her. She has made legal threats a couple times now, and removed negative content about herself from the article. Rhobite 19:14, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

Plautus returns

'Just wanted to make sure everyone was aware that Plautus satire's one year ban has explired and he has returned. For those who don't know, he was banned by the arbcom last February for being the most disruptive user ever (and reset the ban last July by using a sockpuppet). →Raul654 04:52, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

Holy crap, what a flood. Are we banning him again? -- Khaosworks 06:10, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

He's already been causing trouble, and he's already been hit with a 24 hour block for violating the 3rr on his old RFC. So now he's bellyaching on his talk page (remember, Tim recently tweaked it so you can edit your own talk page whiel blocked). →Raul654 06:13, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

To ban him again we'd need a new ArbCom decision. If it's expired that makes him the same as anybody else. Everyking 06:42, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Based on the near universal comment of "Can't we just ban him," and the fact that he's very obviously not reformed AT ALL, I'm thinking this is a good case for an addition to "banned by the Misplaced Pages community?" Any comments or objections? (Besides you, Everyking. We already know you object.) Snowspinner 17:41, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

If he goes back to doing the same things that got him blocked the last time, then it strikes me as reasonable for an admin to block him–for short periods, up to say 24 hours–for disruption. In the interest of keeping the peace here, I'd suggest placing a block request here and allowing a second admin to actually block (in the absence of clear vandalism or outright destruction). If he accumulates more than one or two such blocks, I imagine that it would be very easy to persuade the ArbCom to impose a temporary injunction against editing. In such a case, we might also be able to save a lot of time by direct appeal to Jimbo. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:29, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

The ArbCom is already looking into it. --cesarb 18:35, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Aren't people jumping the gun a little here? At the above link, it sites 3 alledged problems . But when I look them up the first is on his own talk page, the second is not disruptive at all, and the third is a some what impolite but none the less reasonable disgreement with another editor on a talk page. Perhaps I'm a little sensative because of why own problems with adminstrator User:Gamaliel (see below), but these calls for another year of banning seem premature to me.--198.93.113.49 19:11, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Look at this. Is it time to protect his talk page, to workaround the annoying new misfeature? --cesarb 19:17, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

There are less than 500 active and semi-active admins on Wikipeida. That's a scant number for such a huge project, perhaps if admins didn't waste so much time worrying about petty criticism of them on users talk pages that really don't ammount to much then they'd have more time to do the really important things and thereby attract less criticism. Which is more imporatant? Making sure there are no petty criticisms of admins on talk pages or making this into a real respectable encyclopedia. I fear that stamping out all dissent will only lead to more disent or more bannings of editors who would make useful contributions instead of arguing with the admins if the admins whould just loosen up and not be so sensative.

I freely admit that I've lost my cool recently, and I don't blame anyone for that but myself, but now I still have an admin hounding me who even blocked my for 12 hours for violating a rule he made up, and I'm not getting any support from the other admins below. So perhaps my opinion of the adminstrators is unfairly tarnished right now, but admins need to keep in mind that while there are rules in place to help easily address problems with editors, it's very hard to do anything when an admin becomes abusive and that's going to frustrate a lot of people. Admins can take the hard line in those cases if they want, but I doubt any good will come from it. I certainly doubt it will make this into a respected encyclopedia.--198.93.113.49 19:36, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Maybe I'm missing something, but given that Plautus was blocked indefinitely (and never unblocked), how is he still editing pages other than his talk page? Carbonite | Talk 16:18, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

There were conflicting blocks, now expired. Now blocked permanently. ] 16:24, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

I always thought that when a block was placed, it would replace any existing block. Am I just wrong now or have I always been wrong about this? Maybe this behavior changed with MediaWiki 1.5. If block is already in effect and I want to place a block of a different length, should I first unblock and then re-block? Carbonite | Talk 16:30, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

I asked the devs recently and was told that "no one really understands the blocking code". I think that blocks act independently of each other. So if I block user X for 5 hours, and then 1 minute later another admin blocks him indefinitely, in 5 hours my block will expire, the software will unlock user X, which causes both blocks disappear from the block list. →Raul654 16:34, July 29, 2005 (UTC)

DING DING DING! What's that sound? It's the sound of Plautus doing what he does best, injecting his first conspiracy theory into wikipedia since his return. →Raul654 16:24, July 29, 2005 (UTC)

Was any procedure followed on this most recent indefinite block or did someone just do it?--198.93.113.49 19:53, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

no procedure was followed and it would seem there is less than universal support for a permanent ban, even right here on this page there are several comments that a ban is premature to say the least...is snowspinner also raul654?

Hmm, completely spurious and ridiculous conspiracy theory. Could Plautus be hounding us again? I would like to note that I made the second infinite block, as a good-faith reversion to the most recently-instated one, which was cancelled for technical reasons. I believe there is a good case for "banned by the community" here. ] 23:55, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

I don't agree with the block; I think we need procedure. Plautus' behavior since his return, and I'm not saying it wasn't abhorrent before, seems more along the lines of harmless rambling and mild mischief. Really I don't think an open and shut case can be made for "banned by the community". I would support having a community vote over it, though, with an agreed upon threshold in advance, followed by an ArbCom case if that fails. Does this sound reasonable? Everyking 01:58, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

I support some kind of process - right now Plautus is being mildly disruptive, but not overly so (most of his edits seem to have been in the Talk areas). Granted, I can see where this will eventually be going given the obviousness of his behaviour patterns, but let's at least do by whatever book we do have. --khaosworks 02:10, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

Surely you don't think that statements like "Fuck this monkey bullshit and fuck you, Fred!" (see edit summary here: ) indicate that this user has had some miraculous transformation during his year-and-a-half ban. How does that old saying go... troll me once, shame on you--troll me twice, shame on me. There's a point at which we have to just say that enough is enough. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 12:22, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

User talk:Plautus satire — I agree that the gloating is probably unneccesary. Without knowledge of the case, the page in its present state still looks a bit malicious. A link to some relevant discussion instead of just the blocking policy would seem appropriate. 80.219.219.208 19:24, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

I have unblocked Plautus satire (talk · contribs). He had been blocked indefinitely by Snowspinner, but the pending arbitration case would block him only for one year. He is unblocked to present a defense in his arbitration case and to demonstrate if he can that "continuation of disruptive behavior" is not true. Fred Bauder 19:23, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

Lamb Chop

sock created solely to revert TJive's edits. i have my own suspicions, but i won't comment because i can't check IPs. a similar incident happened recently with Bee Hive. J. Parker Stone 05:50, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

It's User:Ruy Lopez. And "Bee Hive" was permanently banned by Jayjg after a 3RR, for being a sockpuppet created for policy violation. --TJive 05:52, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

Please remember: User:Lamb Chop ≠ user:Lambchop

Thanks :) Lambchop 05:56, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

So, my arch-nemesis has returned..... Charlie Horse 12:52, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Let's see what we have here. I am accused of being a sock puppet by someone who the Arbitration Committee has banned from editing pages. Then TJive, the sock puppets of all sock puppets, accuses me of being a sock puppet. Please go to TJive's first edits and tell me whether or not he is a sock puppet. Lamb Chop

Lopez, you can't counter your bad behavior by pointing to the behavior of others. Trey Stone is facing sanctions; is that what you want? Very well.

BTW, as I explained weeks ago when you first tried that, I did work here anonymously before I joined, which is why I knew about simple things like what a "revert" is; pretty elementary in the first place. --TJive 06:06, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

Well Ruy you just kinda proved that you're a sock. How many times have you referenced that I've been temp-banned, been short-blocked in the past, OMG WHAT THIS IS NEWS J. Parker Stone 06:25, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Permanently blocked as a sockpuppet created for the purpose of policy violation. Jayjg 20:28, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

User:I love PENIS lots lots lots

Innapropriate username? ∞Who?¿? 07:11, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

• Yeah, probably. Then again, the user appears to be making good contributions. Everyking 07:17, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Yea I seen that, was thinking it was a vandal, but all good edits so far. Granted someone will complain about the userpage eventually. ∞Who?¿? 07:23, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Let's invite the user to change names. Also the page needs to be blanked, or something needs to be changed about it. Everyking 07:28, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

That's a good idea, I would hate for them to get deleted or blocked over a silly name, probably did it for fun. Thanks. ∞Who?¿? 07:49, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

At this point I think I should point out what SqueakBox said in his welcome to this user: "Hello, I love PENIS lots lots lots, and welcome to Misplaced Pages." I wonder how I should interpret that... --Dmcdevit·t 20:56, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

You should interpret it as me being a part of the welcoming committee. I do hundreds of these. Everyking had left a message saying maybe he should use a different name, so I left a message saying The best way to do this is to press the above move button and folow the instructions. Meanwhile and added the welcome as it was made clear here that his or her edits are fine, and therefore we want to encourage the user to be a regular contributor. It just seemed wrong to me not to welcome him or her, SqueakBox 21:08, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

Try reading the sentence... Cheers, ] 21:10, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Yes. Erm. It was, you know... ha ha...? (Of course I appreciate welcomers, and even remember the excitement when I first saw that "new messages" alert) Dmcdevit·t 21:21, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

That, of course was the wikipedia template interpreting the {{welcome}} template. I take no responsibility! SqueakBox 21:17, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

Block him for user name and tell him to contact a bureaucrat to change contribs. We've had other offensive names with good contribs but we still have to block them. Redwolf24 22:53, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

I just did the deed in line with our username blocking policy... Redwolf24 22:56, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

User:Sjakkalle, User:IZAK and the VFD debate on Religious persecution by Jews

I closed this VFD debate: Misplaced Pages:Votes for deletion/Religious persecution by Jews, as a "keep (no consensus)" since there was not a two thirds majority for deletion. I see that User:IZAK is most displeased with this. He has called my decision "dictatorial" and "ridiculous", and has proceeded to send this message to a number of other users. I refer to my talkpage for my explanation. Sjakkalle (Check!) 10:55, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Looks like "no consensus" was a proper call to me. Note that a kept article can still be moved to a different title or merged or what-have-you after the VfD, of course, if consensus arises to do so. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 18:36, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

I've been looking for the "proper channels" regarding the discussion that's broken out with IZAK two days now, and any assistance would be appreciated. Shem 20:28, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

I'll agree with that no consensus. Redwolf24 22:51, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

User:Gamaliel blocked me for 12 hours without cause

Please help me. I was blocked yesterday for this edit by User:Gamaliel.

There is a long discussion of it here: User talk:198.93.113.49. I know it is long, but please read everything under 12 hour block. I think it will show that I am being delt with unfairly. Now Gamaliel has started list of greviances against me here User:Gamaliel/todo. I'm embarrassed to admit that some of these things are true. I have viloated the 3RR rule in the past and did handle the John Byrne edit war badly, but I am a good editor and no troll. I'm paticularly pround of the cleanup I did of Oak Island: ], but most of what Gamaliel says about me on his page is just a personal attack. Please read my response: User:Gamaliel/todo.

Thank you, --198.93.113.49 14:00, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

That seems like a very random and irrelevant place to leave a comment. I can see no plausible explanation other than it being an attack on Gamaliel, intended to be read by Gamaliel. The anon in question has a single edit and is unlikely to be back to see it himself. -- Cyrius|✎ 16:13, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

I had no reason to think Gamaliel would read it and was surprised that he did read it. What exactly is the blockable offense here. Gamaliel has said many things far worse about me and yet my attempt to discuss the situation on Roy Lichtenstein with a user who had had similar problems with Gamaliel is considered an attack. Is it now Wiki policy that admins can block users for anything if they think is inapporiate even if it does not violate any policy? Please read the converstaion at 198.93.113.49. Gamaliel is all over the place on his reasons for blocking me. They're either old issues that have already been delt with, things which violate no policy, alledgedly trollish behavior that he himself engages in, or simply innacurate accusations against me. --198.93.113.49 17:28, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

The talk pages of new users should not be forums to air unrelated grievances. They should be for greeting new users and informing them of Misplaced Pages policies and customs, not for drawing them into preexisiting conflicts. I feel very strongly about this matter, and in light of the anon's previous history, I feel my actions were warranted. My to do list was merely a personal record/memory refresher of my interatctions with other users (as well as a list of articles I wanted to get around to editing) not meant for public consumption or as a public attack, but I suppose everything on Misplaced Pages is for public consumption in the end. Initially I reverted his comments to my subpage and locked it, but I decided to let them remain for the time being. Gamaliel 16:25, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

• Now Gamaliel has deleted my last comment to Talk:Rob Liefeld, please help me resolve this. I do not know what to do?--198.93.113.49 18:37, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Please note that 198.93.113.49 has been adding to the Talk:Rob Liefeld page for quite some time, leaving unconstructive comments while failing to actually add anything noteworthy to the discussion, or to the betterment of the article. Some genuine users are trying to reach a consensus as to the content of the (currently protected) article however are being constantly hampered by this, and other, anonymous IPs. It is unfortunate that we have now progressed to blocking these IPs if they do not desist from their behaviour. We are also automatically reverting any edits that do not have anything to do with the article in question. -- Francs2000 | Talk File:Uk flag large.png 19:17, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

I am a gunuine user and this is nothing more than a personal attack. Yes, I was involved in an edit war on Rob Liefeld and yes I lost my temper when a different standard was applied to other users than the one being applied to me. That has no baring on the issue here which is Gamaliel's blocking me 12 hours for a compleately unrelated comment on another page or the fact that he just today deleted a perfectly reason comment I made to the Rob Leifeld talk page which is still in the history for any one to see that it should not have been deleted.--198.93.113.49 19:25, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Note, the edits in question were:

Francs2000, These idiots will never setle these disputes, it a better idea to scrat the whole article. rob liefeld doesn't need to be metioned on this website. by 69.243.46.93 (talk · contribs)

wikipedia=censorship by 65.220.54.20 (talk · contribs)

Why was User:65.220.54.20 comment reverted. It was not a personal attack. And while it was negative toward wikipedia and extremely terse it was also relevent to what's been going on here. I agree the sentiment that a spirit of censorship infects Misplaced Pages, and while I would have expressed it a little different that 65.220.54.20 that hardly means his comment should be reverted. by 198.93.113.49 (talk · contribs)

198, Your fighting a losing battle the admins at this site all have god complexs. by 65.220.54.20 (talk · contribs)

To be honest I stepped in as an independent admin following a request for help on this very page for assistance and I'm now spending far too much time being accused of every bias under the sun by anonymous IPs on a page about someone I couldn't care less about. Sort it out amongst yourselves, I'm not going to touch the page again. -- Francs2000 | Talk File:Uk flag large.png 19:37, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm sure it is obvious to everyone, but I want make it doubly clear that my comment which was deleted was

Why was User:65.220.54.20 comment reverted. It was not a personal attack. And while it was negative toward wikipedia and extremely terse it was also relevent to what's been going on here. I agree the sentiment that a spirit of censorship infects Misplaced Pages, and while I would have expressed it a little different that 65.220.54.20 that hardly means his comment should be reverted. by 198.93.113.49 (talk · contribs)

I also want to reiterate that this is a side issue. My main objection was that I was blocked for 12 hours without cause.--198.93.113.49 19:44, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Please help. Gamaliel continues to delete my comments at Talk:Rob Liefeld. Please go there an see for yourself that my comments are appropriate and should not be deleted. Here is the most recently deleted comment which was in response to Gamaliel ording me t stop commenting--198.93.113.49 20:10, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Since when do you get to determine when a discussion is over? I'm still concerned that there is too much deleting of comments going on here and while most of the comments deleted so far problably won't be missed I want to make sure this does not get out of hand so that this discussion of Liefeld can continue smoothely

Why does no one care about this abuse by Gamaliel?

Now he is threathening me on my talk page:

Get this straight: Misplaced Pages is not your personal message board. You are not entitled to post your complaints anywhere you want. The sole purpose for an article talk page is for productive discussion of the content of that article. It is not the place for comments like These idiots will never setle these disputes, it a better idea to scrat the whole article and wikipedia=censorship from you or anyone else. Those useless comments do not add anything to the productive discussion of an encyclopedia article, nor does a long discussion of the worth of comments like those contribute anything of worth to the article. You have recieved clear, repeated warnings from both User:Francs2000 and myself about your behavior on that page. For the last and final time, keep your comments on the topic of the article and nothing else. I will not allow you to make Talk:Rob Liefeld your personal soapbox nor will I allow you to continue to waste my time and the time of the productive editors there actually trying to improve the article. If you actually wish to be a productive, contributing editor, I suggest you start acting like one. Your lack of positive contributions combined with your constant trolling over the last several weeks makes me think more and more that a permanent ban on this IP as a troll account is warranted. Gamaliel 21:12, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Please somebody go to Talk:Rob Liefeld. You can clear see he is lying about what I am doing.--198.93.113.49 21:40, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

The best way for you to demonstrate that Gamaliel is mistaken about you is for you to start making constructive comments on that talk page about how to imporove that article. Theresa Knott (a tenth stroke) 22:29, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

I was blocked for 12 hours for no reason at all. I have no recourse what-so-ever and no one cares, and now I'm told that it's my responsibility to prove Gamaliel is wrong!? He's decided I'm troll, attacked me on his todo page, and used this is an excuse to block me when he feels like whether I've done anything or not, and I am burdened with showing that he's wrong about me!?!. I cannot win. This much is clear. Gamaleil has bocked me without cause, deleted my discussions on the Rob Liefeld talk page, and left vague threats on my talk page. And the only admins who care are the ones that think this is okay. All a person has to do is go see for themselves that I've done nothing wrong in this instance.--198.93.113.49 13:42, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Most of the comments you guys are attributing to 198, belong to me please do not credit him with those remarks.

Ok, I went to Talk:Rob Liefeld. Let me ask you this, 198.93.113.49, did you, in fact, make ANY comments about Rob Liefeld, or how to improve the article? Or did you waste everyone's time by trying to defend a vandal? Because unless I missed it, none of your comments had anything to do with Liefeld. You complained because irrelevant comments were being removed? Why? --Kbdank71 15:23, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Irrelevet comment?! Three of my own comments were removed and they were completely relevent. Some of the comments made by others may ahve been questionable, but even then I think that when in doubt it's best to avoid deleting comments in a discussion. I think that this is a very valid point of discussion. I'm sorry that you and Gamaliel disagree, but we will just have to have a difference of opinion on that. However, just because you and Gamaliel don't find an issue worth discussing does not mean that those comments should be deleted. Gamaliel is at it again by the way. He's made it very clear on his talk page that he intends to revert edits to Joe Scarborough no matter how many people oppose his version and made a wildly unfounded accuasation about sock puppets (even though he's taken me to task for accusing some of being a sock puppet once) and when I tried to comment on the matter (I'm a part of the group who opposes his POV pushing on Scarboroug) he deleted my comment and left a nasty note on mt talk page.User talk:198.93.113.49--198.93.113.49 19:48, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Yep. Granted, I only went back one page in history, but this is what I saw: Vandalism. Vandalism removed. You complained because vandalism was removed. Repeat. Add in removal of your complaints, and that's it in a nutshell. So what's the problem there? BTW, you didn't answer my question: Did you make any comments about Rob Leifeld or his article? --Kbdank71 19:58, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

User uploading suspect fair use images

Please see Flgook's upload log. Seems suspicious to me. - Ta bu shi da yu 08:02, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

The tags smell bogus - the bunnies, Jeff Probst (I only looked at the first five or so) all look like they were taken off IMDB or professionally taken photos at public events and probably copyrighted. Even the GQ "cover" isn't a cover - the "Click here to subscribe" tag suggests that it's grabbed off the GQ website (and indeed it is.) I suggest going through them with a fine tooth comb. --khaosworks 08:51, July 29, 2005 (UTC)

Inappropriate content?

Yesterday, on RC patrol, I noticed Misplaced Pages Username (talk • contribs) creating User:Misplaced Pages Username/Letter, a letter to Hollywood stars about their failure to support the war in Iraq. I asked him to take it down, as I felt it was inappropriate content. To his credit, he did so, although he did label be a "fascist", and accuse me of double standards, since I have some slightly irrelevant stuff on my user page. I do, however, marvel at the comment, And anyway I wasn't "calling" you a fascist, you are a fascist, so I was merely stating fact. Now, having deleted the article, all should be fine and dandy, right? Wrong. He now creates User:Misplaced Pages Username/Facist Beating (sic) with exactly the same content. Firstly, is the content appropriate for Misplaced Pages? My reaction was no, although I concede that I may be wrong. Secondly, with the letter actually being written by Charlie Daniels, is the letter copyvio? This is the point when I don't really want to start acting unilaterally, so any advice would be appreciated! Cheers, ] 10:01, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Since it's a copyvio, it should probably be listed as such.--nixie 10:06, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

So it is a copyvio then? ] 10:13, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

I believe it is, see http://www.charliedaniels.com/soapbox/03/242.html I also copyvio'd the page, just seen this after I did it. Gonna leave a note on the talk page for them. ∞Who?¿? 10:19, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, Who. ] 10:23, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

I just want to say for the first part of him writing a letter to stars, that's perfectly allowable, its his own user page and its his own subpage. Saying he's not allowed to is like saying that we can't write about how old we are, etc. at our page. However him calling you a fascist was totally out of line. Redwolf24 22:24, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

I had that debate with him. He came up with the extraordinary statement And no ones going to ask you about stuff that is apart of your life, unless they're stupid because I don't care about your life, so no one else should either. From Misplaced Pages:User page, section "What should I avoid": Generally, you should avoid any substantial content that is unrelated to Misplaced Pages and Opinion pieces not related to Misplaced Pages or other non-encyclopedic material. I was asking whether the content fell into these categories. ] 22:30, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm going to have to agree with Smoddy; stating your interests is relevant, because it helps other editors find you. For example, listing my Ph.D. on my page helps others realize that I am a good source of information with regard to theology. However, an open letter to Benedict XVI in my user space wouldn't be relevant to my work here. If WU wants to write an open letter, he should do it on his hard drive or on a free hosting site, like Yahoo!. If it's a copyvio, then that just makes it worse. The user should be warned to avoid personal attacks, and blocked for 24 hours for disruption if the letter-posting and/or attacks continue. -- Essjay · Talk 22:40, July 29, 2005 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree with Essjay. Some unrelated content, like the pictures people have on their user page are, IMO, fine. An open letter of complaint to the Misplaced Pages community is fine. Even Cognition's man-beasts, while distasteful, are useful in identifying him/her as a LaRouchie. But open letters to celebrities are not connected to Misplaced Pages. Of course, if it's a copyvio there's no excuse for it to be there at all. Guettarda 23:26, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Louis Epstein

Louis Epstein, who has never registered an account but contributes from the fixed IP address 12.144.5.2 (talk · contribs), has been using the Lynx browser in Unicode-unsafe mode, damaging pages and sometimes destroying links. In one case, a wrecked interwiki link was subsequently removed. I pointed this out to him at User talk:12.144.5.2#You_need_to_change_your_browser_settings. I am not totally certain as he has had a history of replacing dashes with hyphens, but his edits to Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith strongly suggest that he has not acted on this. I am wondering whether the corruption counts as compromising integrity and seeming to ignore the problem is bad faith, which is the definition of vandalism in Misplaced Pages. This is a separate issue from his present round of revert warring. Susvolans (pigs can fly) 16:26, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

ProudWHITEIsraeli

• ProudWHITEIsraeli (talk · contribs)

If I came across this chap's edits in the normal course of events I might summarily block him for having an inappropriate username for Misplaced Pages, or at least have a word with him about engaging in political advocacy (his userpage). However he has made an apparently good faith VfD and this is being taken seriously, and I have taken part in the discussion, so I don't feel comfortable dealing with him as an administrator. But it does seem to me that he probably intends to use Misplaced Pages as part of some campaign. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 05:38, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

• Er... good faith nomination? In the nomination, he directly accuses Mustafaa and others of being "racists" (I would block him for that personal attack). His userpage, which I wish you hadn't forced me to read, ew, verifies my worst fears about his motives. The irony is that he is most certainly the racist. Oh well, I guess we're not all Jews this week, maybe we'll be Muslims. --Dmcdevit·t 05:48, July 30, 2005 (UTC)
• I think Dmcdevit captured my feeling exactly. I don't know if you could call it a good faith VfD, but if nothing else, someone needs to remove the personal attacks on Mustaafa. I won't do anything, since I don't want to be accused of taking racism personally (again), and I have edited his VfD. But I advise any uninvolved admin to take a look at this. Guettarda 06:07, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

  Perhaps what I saw was the edited version of the VfD. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 06:21, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

  (I'll warn you I just had a run-in with sockpuppets on VfD today, so I may be on high-alert.) But, any account that is created with a throwaway username, makes its first few edits to VfD a contoversial topic and make racist personal attacks, and then makes allusions to Misplaced Pages's past and familiarity with an established Wikipedian ("it has been established time and time again on wikipedia that Mustafaa is biased against Whites and Jews") reeks of sockpuppetry. I don't know what conflicts Mustafaa's been in, but this is no newbie. --Dmcdevit·t 06:32, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

• Absolutely. This guy was obviously a sock puppet. I don't have a problem with socks per se, only abusive socks. The reason I listed this case here is that I'm involved in the VfD discussion so I don't feel that it would be appropriate to deal with this chap myself. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 07:51, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Plus, sorry to jump in, I think a username change could also be in order. That name will just call for possible accusations of racism against this user. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 07:59, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
• I would agree with this. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 10:08, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
  • If it was ProudBLACKIsraeli would it have accusations of racism? ‡ Jarlaxle 23:59, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

I asked myself the same question yesterday, then speculated that people's opinions would vary. Either would seem disruptive to me. Wyss 00:25, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

• That question is a false dichotomy. ProudWHITEIsraeli is mostly only disruptive in the context of his racist user page, personal attacks and sockpuppetry, not the username. If the hypothetical ProudBLACKIsraeli acted the same, then the same would apply to him. And by the way, ProudWHITEIsraeli is also not accused of racism because of his name, but because of his own words (read the user page, he thiks all Blacks should go back to Africa!). I think either proudWHITEIsraeli (or BLACK) would be an acceptable name if it were in the context of a history of valuable contributions. --Dmcdevit·t 00:35, July 31, 2005 (UTC)

In the username itself, to me the all-caps white hints at disruption/confrontation, not editing. Wyss 02:27, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

I understand the argument wrt this guy, but was this appropriate? Has -Ril- been made an admin sometime that I was unaware of? Tomer 02:20, July 31, 2005 (UTC)

I think everyone should be aware that he is a special kind of sockpuppet, a strawman sockpuppet, and it's pretty clear who the puppetmaster is. Jayjg 05:09, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Wonderful. That still doesn't deal with my question about the appropriateness of what -Ril- did. Tomer 05:23, July 31, 2005 (UTC)

There. I've undone -Ril- to make clearer my point that what he did was inappropriate. Will an ADMIN now please do the job? Thanks. Tomer 05:28, July 31, 2005 (UTC)

I've blocked his new account, User:TelAvivKid, indefinitely, as it's clear he's a disruptive sock puppet, and I believe he's banned user Alberuni. I've left a note on his talk page inviting him to discuss it with me by e-mail if he wants to continue editing. SlimVirgin 21:33, July 31, 2005 (UTC)

Existentializer, suspected sock of Enviroknot

• Existentializer (talk · contribs)

This user has been accused of being a sock puppet of user Enviroknot (talk · contribs) who has been banned from sock puppeting and is banned from editing for one year according to an arbitration committee decision. I've looked at his editing and his behavior does seem similar, but I'd like third party opinions before taking this to arbcom for a reset of Enviroknot's ban. He does seem to have Enviroknot's trademark toxicity--I feel like I need a shower after reading his comments. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 06:21, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

First edits

I think these edits establish very well that this editor has a style extremely reminiscent of Enviroknot--in effect, a charm-free zone. The pattern of articles edited, and subjects, also closely fit the Enviroknot pattern.

• 18 July: Somewhat POV edit on MoveOn
• 19 July: Abusive response to User:Radicalsubversiv on Talk:MoveOn
• July 19: Revert edit on Jihad making accusations against a certain User:BrandonYusufToropov. See also 212.247.200.185 (talk · contribs)
• 19 July: Rather trollish Follow up to 3RR report by User:212.247.200.185
• 19 July: Good edit on Simulation game.
  • User:Elkabong, User:KaintheScion and User:Enviroknot were all sock puppets who interspersed their trolling with serious edits on gaming.
• 19 July: Revert edit on his user page by one User:Envirofuck, accusing him of being a sock of User:Enviroknot.

Because of this editor's continued abusive comments and in particular recent removal of comments from a talk page, I'm blocking him pending a decision on whether he is a sock of Enviroknot. The closer I look the more obvious it is. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 08:33, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

Maybe I've been out of the loop, but who makes that "decision"? Since when do we hand out pre-emptive blocks without conclusive decisions as to identity? - Seth Ilys 16:56, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Indeed! How about contacting David Gerard for an IP check before making hasty decisions based only on somewhat hazy associations. P.S. Wouldn't you expect someone who isn't a sockpuppet to also revert a sock template on their user page? HKT 18:20, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

• I agree with you. His edit summaries, particularly those accusing random users of being sockpuppets of Yuber, are very clearly those of Enviroknot, and he was immediately very familiar with WP procedures and policies, unlikely for a new user. ] 14:07, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

• I fail to see what your justification to do this is. Having looked at the circumstances surrounding his edits there is some bad language but nothing otherwise out of line. When the presence of good edits is used as "proof" of something wrong, I think you are misconstruing things. And since the same users he was facing off with have vandalized my own user page, I think it is most likely that you are abusing your own authority because you have an axe to grind and need a target.Ni-ju-Ichi 04:41, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Further, I'll note that nobody has reverted the removed comments yet, quite possibly because they themselves were trollish and a direct violation of the group's mission statement. What he did wasn't out of line.Ni-ju-Ichi 05:11, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

• User:Envirofuck is Yuber Sockpuppet. It's Existentializer's own user page and he can moderate it as he see's fit. BYT is well known as wiki-Islamist, which is why his admin request fell through, BYT has been known to pig-fight with other editors. Again let's not bite the newbies. Klonimus 05:28, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Actually, from the edits (focusing on Islam topics and now especially out of nowhere jumping back to Vampire and Vampire fiction to take up the cause of the banned editor) it seems pretty clear that User:Ni-ju-Ichi here is a sockpuppet of User:Existentializer, and most likely for all the other banned aliases as well. DreamGuy 05:18, July 31, 2005 (UTC)

No, I am not, DreamGuy. I took a look at the users in question and I've watched Existentializer's page ever since mine was vandalized. YOU have been repeatedly told to stop making the edits you're continually reverting at Talk:Vampire by multiple users, not just Existentializer, and it is quite clear that you are in the wrong. Accusing someone of being a sockpuppet to get rid of people who stand in the way of your conduct is no way to act on Misplaced Pages. Ni-ju-Ichi 05:37, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, but the only "multiple users" reverting that page are the now banned user, an editor who has a long history of reverting my edits no matter what they are (see his RfC) and yourself (a clear sock... allegedly watching his page since it was vandalized in no way explains your sudden need to jump into and make edits to all the same articles he was making, and your history here is short and extremely suspicious, not to mention your comments use the same over the top accusatory style trying to quote policies you as a new user would likely be unfamiliar with). You can deny it all you want, but your edit history makes it all too clear. Claiming mutliple users oppose my actions when it's really only one (you) and then a person who doesn't oppose my edits so much as everything I do (all the way to his reverting my edits when I changed capitalization in articles to fit the Manual of Style) is a blatant misrepresentation of the facts... and one clearly calculated by a person banned mutliple times and trying to game the system to get his way. DreamGuy 06:13, July 31, 2005 (UTC)

If this is the way you act, Dreamguy, then there's no wonder Talk:Vampire is full of people telling you to knock it off. Ni-ju-Ichi 06:25, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, yeah, yeah... "full of people" sure. You won't fool anyone. Your edit history suspiciously features Isalmic articles, those two vampire articles, and video game articles, and nothing else. It's mighty peculiar that the triad of topics obsessed upon by those previously banned users happen to match you perfectly right down to specific articles, and that all of the socks used the exact same arguments and claims you now use. You must think the admins are stupid. DreamGuy 06:31, July 31, 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, because nobody at ALL is interested in Islam, nore in video games, nor in Vampires... do you do Punch and Judy acts too? DreamGuy, you have already been warned by me and other contributors to this article. You do not own this article. Do not make drastic changes without opening it up for discussion. What you are doing is vandalism. (courtesy of Evmore) And now your fallback is to accuse anyone who disagrees with you of being a sockpuppet? I'm sorry, but you need to chill and you need to start working WITHIN wikipedia policy please. Ni-ju-Ichi 06:36, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

I think a venerated principe of Western jurisdiction is "innocent until proven guilty". The described incidents in which Existentializer was involved do not seem to be of an extremely intrusive or abusive character which warrants a ban of this user. A mere suspicion should IMHO not be a reason for a ban. --Germen (Talk | Contribs File:Nl small.gif) 11:36, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

I would like to remind everybody that WP is not a project to emulate western jurisdiction. It is a project to write an encyclopedia. No real-life disadvantages arise for unjustly blocked users. Fairness is an a posteriori desideratum, in the interest of a good community spirit. I do think the evidence acted upon by Tony is conclusive enough, although the arbcom may want to have a word in this. I repeat that I think admins badly need to see IPs to facilitate decisions such as Tony's. Also, note that User:Ni-ju-Ichi has been accused of being a sock . It seems pretty obvious that the account is a sockputtpet of somebody, see its early edits . I do not think he is Enviroknot, but I suppose they are coordinated via some online forum. Note that, a Dreamguy has pointed out, the "do three harmless edits with your new sock account before diving into trolling Islam articles" stunt has been pulled by Enviroknot before. dab (ᛏ) 12:10, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

User:Ni-ju-Ichi blocked as sockpuppet of Enviroknot

I've blocked Ni-ju-Ichi as a sockpuppet of Enviroknot. Ni-ju-Ichi edits follow the exact pattern of User:Kurita77, who was another sockpuppet of Enviroknot. Besides the unusually strong interest in Enviroknot, there's also the "harmless" edits to Nintendo articles and Eyeshield 21 (anime) (which Kurita mentioned was the reason he came to Misplaced Pages). Compare Special:Contributions/Kurita77 and that of Ni-ju-Ichi and also see the history of Eyeshield 21 (anime) . If any admin believes I'm wrong, please unblock, but this is far too coincidental to be different users. Carbonite | Talk 20:21, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Isn't there some sort of due process for determining this? Subjective opinions of an individual about editing patterns do not seem like due process to me. I'm sure that someone around here can look at IP logs to see whether or not the sock puppetry accusation is true. --Zeno of Elea 21:39, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Enviroknot is known to change IPs very frequently, but I will post a message on David Gerard's talk page. Since Enviroknot recently was banned by the ArbCom, this may be something David can look into. Still, this is a very obvious case with Ni-ju-Ichi and Kurita77 (another one of Enviroknot's sockpuppets) being the only users to ever edit Eyeshield 21 (anime). . Also, please see the nice messages left by Ni-ju-Ichi after he was blocked. I asked Ni-ju-Ichi to contact the mailing list if he had further concerns. So far, it appears he does not. Carbonite | Talk 21:47, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

At the very least, I think that demonstrable evidence of disruptive or anti-policy activity pre-block on Ni-ji-Ichi's part should be put forward. He's upset, but I think that's understanable. I'm taking Carbonite's suggestion and unblocking Ni-ji-Ichi for the moment. -- Seth Ilys 22:02, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Concur, personally I think potential non-disruptive though abusive sock puppets ought to go through the RfC process. I think that there is enough uncertainty that one can't directly claim that Ni-ji-Ichi == Enviroknot. I think we have to assume good faith untill, proven otherwise. Klonimus 22:18, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Enviroknot is banned by the ArbCom and thus all of his sockpuppets are also banned. I've provided evidence above that Ni-ju-Ichi is Kurita77 and it was already proven that Kurita77 was Enviroknot. I strongly request that the block be reinstated. I've already asked David Gerard to examine the IP evidence, but as Enviroknot uses dynamic IPs, I'm not sure how much he;ll be able to learn. If Ni-ju-Ichi has concerns, he may present his case to the mailing list or on his talk page. So far, he has done neither. Carbonite | Talk 22:14, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Also note that the ArbCom decision bans Enviroknot for one year and prohibits him from using any sockpuppets (abusive or otherwise). Ni-ju-Ichi is a virtual clone of Kurita77, displaying the same editing beahvior and interest in all things about Enviroknot. Carbonite | Talk 22:23, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Having had an extensive IRC with Ni-ju-Ichi, and having had dealings with Enviroknot in the past, I am convinced that they are one and the same. He claimed to be a "friend" of Existentializer, and that, to me, means he is Enviroknot. My good-faith assuming has been worn out on this user. ] 22:20, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

OK, here's the definitive evidence: It's already known that Enviroknot (and his sockpuppet Kurita77) are from Houston. . After I blocked Ni-ju-Ichi, he posted using IP 66.69.128.146. This traces to...Houston. . I again request that the block be reinstated. Carbonite | Talk 22:38, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

user:John Kenney's page moves

Please can somebody investigate whether the series of page moves made by user:John Kenny of Russian queen consorts was apropriate. I have reverted his move of Alexandra Fyodorovna of Hesse to Alexandra Fyodorovna (Alix of Hesse) as there is currently quite a contentious discussion/vote over what the title of that article should be, but Alexandra Fyodorvna (Alix of Hesse) has no support votes and 1 oppose vote. He moved a whole lot of other articles to similar titles, all afaict without any discussion on the talk pages concerned.

He has proposed a standard, at Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style (biographies)#Inadequate, but (again afaict), this is not linked to from any of the talk pages concerned (with the exeption of the Alexandra of Hesse talk page - in a comment left after the page move), so many of the editors will not be aware of it. It is not the clearest discussion in the world, but I can't see any consensus for any proposal there at all.

I am tempted to revert all the page moves, but don't want to get into a war over it, and so I would like to get consensus here. As John is an administrator, page move protection would not stop a move war. Thryduulf 11:05, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

Well, in my opinion, regarding those who still were under their German birth names, the Kenney moves were towards better direction, but arrived not in the best placements yet. Those ladies could well be at Maria Fedorovna of Denmark, Maria Alexandrovna of Hesse, Alexandra Fedorovna of Prussia, Elisabeth Alexeievna of Baden and Maria Fedorovna of Wurttemberg, instead of those parenthetical disambig placements which mix Russian and German first names. I am however not asking to revert them to German names. And, Thryduulf did very correctly when returning Alexandra Fyodorovna of Hesse to its that location which is awaiting the result of the vote. Arrigo 17:16, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

Speaking as an admin, I could well understand John's frustration with the situation. The vote had reached stalemate, mainly as a result of one contributor's determination not to comply with naming standards. This contributor had previously himself carried out a move without consensus, and I had done so prior to that (before this round of voting began), for much the same reason as John. So yes, it was wrong, but not as mind-numbingly so as the current title is. Deb 17:46, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

Deb is correct in her summary. The vote is stalemated not because a decision can't be taken but because one contributor is determined not to comply with naming standards. I don't think the name picked was right, but the current title is ludicrous and unworkable. John's frustration with the determination of one user to force their clearly wrong name on the page is understandable. (BTW, in case someone misinterpets this: the user in question is not Thryduulf who is also simply trying to untangle the mess.) FearÉIREANN\ 18:06, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages noticeboards