Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 16:48, 22 March 2008

Iran Start‑class Mid‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Iran, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles related to Iran on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please join the project where you can contribute to the discussions and help with our open tasks.IranWikipedia:WikiProject IranTemplate:WikiProject IranIran Start This article has been rated as Start-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Mazandaranis are not ethnically Persian

http://www.myspace.com/mazandarani

According to CIA World Factbook, Mazandaranis are not ethnic Persians, but a distinct ethnic group . So I suggest to have a page on Mazanadarani People as well.Heja Helweda 04:34, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Who is CIA?! We are Persian for the simple reason that we identifiy ourselves as persian. Also the first language of urban population in Mazandaran is Persian not Mazandarani. Sangak 20:14, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I am ofcourse not persian, but i proud to be iranian, i also proud to be tabarian, persians who don't consider other people and would like to consider themselves are disrespectfull, like what you are writing here, please assume good fath, You may think persian, but i am living among them, just in sari and babol people talking mostly persian, and some turkic cities of mazandaran like shahi and behshahr, --Ali 18:26, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

The usage of Mazandarani has been in decline. Its literary and administrative rank was lost to Persian perhaps long before the ultimate integration of Mazandaran into the national administration in the early 17th century. Most people of Mazandaran are bilingual and many see Persian as their first language. Sangak 19:03, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

So, this is up to people and not language, please show some other evidences, actually you made me norvous to writing that message --Ali 19:24, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

According to the research by Maryam Borjian, Mazandarani is unintelligible with respect to Persian.Heja Helweda 05:19, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but the same paper notes that the speakers of Mazandarani are bilingual in both languages --Rayis 09:59, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

I think there is still no consensus on wikipedia regarding what constitutes/defines an "ethnic" group. What is "ethnic"? Does the mere criterion of speaking a different language suffice? Or is it a racial issue? If the point is a linguistic issue, you cannot define an "ethnic" group based on it. Will anybody please finally come up with a sourced statement regarding what an "ethnic group" actually is, and how it relates to a "linguistic group"? Shervink 15:19, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

language could not be an evidence for ethnic, Since many of the people in iran are educating persian, or in india, malaysia, canada, australia, new zealand people enjoy speaking english, However they are from various nations, But A Mazandarani Man who interests his culture and his land shall use Mazandarani, along with business language, Also please note that this is the article of language and not the article of people, since some people insist to including some unrelated notes, Keep on using mazandarani, ema vene na'orim veshon re gap re, ame gap ke andi sadoo'e o jan ri dilbere vene genim,

my take on this: Mazandaranis are of course an ethnic group. But they have assimilated large numbers of (predominantly male)Georgians, Armeniasns, and to some extent also Jews, Kurds and Afghans. Day by day the arrogant Tehranis come to Mazandaran cut off the trees and dry the rice farms and make villas. laugh at Mazandarani language and customs and Tehranize the area. Thi bilingualism in Persian as such, however, goes back to earlier dates. The educated (predominantly Urban) classes there has always been bilingual in Persuian and Mazandarani. Tehrani persian is not making the natives stop speaking their language (yet) but has currupted the purity of their speech and customs.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 23:56, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Bibliography

(moved from separate article)

• ( Chodzko, Alexander, 1842, Specimens of the popular poverty of Persia as found in the adventures and improvisations of Kurroglou, the bandit- minstrel of Northern Persia; and in the songs of the people inhabiting the shores of the Caspian Sea. Orally collected and translated, with philological and historical notes, London, pp. 510- 517, 568- 581.
• Christensen, A., 1995 (tr.), Contributions a la dialectologie iraniene, Dialecte Guiläki de Recht, (Guyesh –e Gilaki-ye Rasht) translated, with notes by Ja‘far Khomāmi Zāde, Tehran.
• DeMorgan,J., 1904, Mission Scientifique en Perse, vol.5,Etudes linguistiques(I.) Dialectes du Kurds. Langues et dialects du nord de la Perse, Paris, pp.200-246.
• Farhang, Dena, 1383, “Ehterām be xānande, yāddāšti bar romān –e ā´dat mikonim”, Golestāne, sāl 5, no. 60, pp. 89-91.
• Fārsi dar goftār. Az entesharat e dabirkhane ye shura-ye gostaresh e zaban va adabiyat farsi. Sarparast ; Dr.Yahya Modarsi, Nevisande ye matn: Mehdi Zarghamiyan. (?)
• Nasri Ashrafi Jahangir, (ed) Farhang e Bozorg e Tabari, 1381, 5 vols, Ehya ketāb, Tehran.
• Frye, N., R., 1975, The Golden Age of Persia, Weidenfeld and Nicholson, London.
• Geiger, w., &., Wilhelm Kuhn, 1898 – 1901 “ Die Kaspischen Dialekte” ,Grundriss der Iranischen Philologie , 1Band, 2Ab., Strassburg. pp.344- 380.
• Humand, Nasrollāh, 1369, Pažuheši dar zabān e Tabari, Ketābsarā, Amol.
• Irānshar, 1342, vol.1, nashriye-ye No.22, Komisiyun e Melli UNSCO dar Iran.
• Kalbāsi, Iran, 2004,”Gozašte-ye Naqli dar Lahjehā va Guyešha-ye Irāni”, Dialectology, Journal of the Iranian Academy of Persian Language and Literature, vol. 1, No.2, pp.66- 89.
• 1376, Guyeš e Kelārdašt, Tehran, Institute for Humanities and Cultural Studies.
• 1372, “Pishvandha-ye tasrifi va ešteqāqi dar afāl e Guyesh e Māzandarāni Kelārdašt,” Majalle-ye Zabānshenāsi, sāl.1, no.1, pp. 88-105.
• 1371, “Tanavvo´e lahjeha dar Guyeš e Gilaki,” majalle-ye dāneškade-ye adabiyāt va ´ulum-e dānešgāh e Ferdusi Mašhad, no.4, sāl25, pp. 934-976.
• Kanz- al- Asrār e Māzandarāni, 1349, vol.2, ba moqaddame-ye Golbābā pur,Tehrān (photo zincography).
• Dorn B., )(ed.) * Kenntniss der Iranischen Srachen, 1860 & 66, (Kanz-al- AsrārSt.Petersburg.(?)
• Kešāvarz,K., 1971 “Barxi vižegihā-ye sarf va nahv-e Gilaki”, Majmue-ye xatābehā-ye Noxostin Kongere-ye Tahqiqāt e Irāni be kušeš e Mozaffar Baxtiyār, pp.237-248,Tehran.
• Kiyā, M., S., 1316 Yazdgerdi= 1326 A.H, Važe nāme-ye Tabari, Tehran. -
• 1330, Vāže nāme-ye Gorgāni, Dāneshgāh – e Tehrān.
• Lambton, A.K.S., 1938, Three Persian Dialects, London.
• Le Coq, P., 1989, “Les dialects Caspiens et les dialects du nord- ouest de l, Iran,” in Schmitt, R. (ed), Compendium Linguarum Iranicarum, pp.296- 312, Wiesbadan.
• Mahjuri, Esmāil, 1345, Tārix e Māzandarān, Sāri.
• 1356, Farhang e Māzandarāni va masalha va tarāne hā, nokāt e dasturi, Vāžehnāme, Farhang o Honare e Māzandarān, Sāri.
• Mohammad ebn- e Esfandiyār, 1320, Tārix e Tabarestān, Xāvar, Tehrān.
• Makenzi, D., 1969,”Iranian Languages,” in Sebeok, Thomas, A. (ed), Current Trends in Linguistics, Vol.5, pp. 450-477, Nederland. MG.
• Melgounof, G., 1868, “ Essai sur les dialects du Masenderan et du Guilanla pronunciation locale”, Zeitschrift der Deutschen Morgenlandischen Geselaschaft, vol.xxII, pp. 195-224.
• Morgan,J, de, 1904, Mission scientifique en Perse, Tome V, Etudes linguistiquues, Paris.
• Mozaffari, M., V., 1979, Noqāndāri, Langrud.
• Najaf zāde Bārfurush, M., B., 1989 , Važehnāme-ye Māzandarāni (Māzandarāni vocabulary), Tehran.
• Nowata, T., 1948, Māzandarāi, (Asian and African Grammatical Manual, No 17), ILCAA, Tokyo.
• Oranski, I., M., 1979, (tr.), Moqaddame –ye Feqholloqe- ye Irani, translated by Kešāvarz, Tehran.
• Purriyahi, M., 1971, Barresi-ye dastur-e Guyesh-e Gilaki-ye Rasht (A Grammatical Study of Gilaki dialect of Rasht), (Ph.D Thisis), Tehran University.
• Rastarguyeva, V., S., 1968, (tr.) Dasur-e Zabān-e Fārsi-ye miyāne (Middle Persian Grammar), translated by V., Shadan, Tehran.
• Rabinau, Jasant lui, 1319, (tr.) Dudman e Alavi dar Māzandarān,tr.by Tāheri Shahāb, Tehrān.
• 1343, (tr.) Safarnāme- ye Māzandarān va Astarābād, tr. By Q. V.Māzandarāni,Tehran, Bongāh e Tarjome va Našer e ketāb, Tehran.
• Samare, Y., 1988,”Tahlil-e Sāxtāri-ye Fe‘l dar Guyeš –e Gilaki-ye Kelārdašt”, Majalle- ye Dāneshkade –ye Adabiyāt va ‘ulum- e ensāni –ye Dānešgāh e Tehran, Vol.26, no.4, pp. 169 -187.
• Samā‘i, M., 1991, Barresi-ye Guyeš-e Tonekāb, (M.A.thesis), Tehran University.
• Sartip pur, J., 199o, Vižegihā-ye Dasturi va Farhang-e vāžehā-ye Gilaki (Grammatical Characteristics and Glossary of Gilaki), Rasht.
• Shokri, G., 1990, “Sāxt-e Fe‘l dar Guyesh-e Sāri ”(Verb Structure in Sāri dialect), Farhang, Vol.6, pp.217-231, Institute for Humanities and Cultural Studies, Tehran.
• 1995, Guyesh-e Sāri (Mazandarāni) (Sāri Dialekt), Institute for Humanities and Cultural Studies, Tehran.
• 1996, “Moruri bar Adabiyāt e Tabari az qarn e čāhārrom e Hejri”, Conference sālāne-ye zabān va Adabiyāt e Fārsi, Bandar Abbās.
• -1998,”Māzi –ye Naqli dar Guyeshhā-ye Gilaki va Mazandarāni” (Present perfect in Gilani and Mazandarāni Dialects), Nāme-ye Farhangestān, The Quarterly Journal of Iranian Academy of Persian Language and Literature, vol.4, No.4, Tehran.
• 2002, Sāxt e fe´l dar Guyeš e Rāmsari, Professor Jes Peter Asmussem Memorial Volum, Copenhagen, pp. 83- 111.
• 2006, Ramsari Dialect. Institute for Humanities and CulturalStudies.
• Sotudeh, Manučehr, 1343,”Amsāl e Firuzkuhi,” Farhang e Iranzamin, sāl 12, pp. 243- 274.
• 1356, Farhang e Semnāni, Sorxe i, Lāsgerdi, Sangsari, šahmizādi, Vezārate Farhang o Honar, Tehrān.
• 1332, Farhang e Gilaki, Anjoman e Irānšenāsi, Tehrān.
• 1341, “Lahje-ye Ali Abād e Farim,” Farhang e Irān zamin, sāl10, pp. 437-470.
• Sokolova, V.S. and A.L. Grjunberg, 1962, Istorija izuchenija bespis`mennyx iranskix azykov, lzd. AN SSSR, Moskva, pp. 118 – 147.
• Surtiji, Faxreddin, 1375, Takvažhā-ye Vābaste-ye Māzandarāni, Farhang, Institute for Humanities and Cultural Studies.
• Vahidiyān Kāmkār, T., 1964, Dastur-e Zabān-e ā`myāne-ye Fārsi(A Grammer of Popular Persian), Mašhad.
• 1992, “Baresi-ye Sefat-e Maf´uli va Ahammiyyat-e an dar Zabān-e Fārsi” (A study of Past participle and Its important in Persian),”Majalle-ye Zabānshen, (Markaz-e Nashr-e dāneshgāhi), vol. 9, no. 2, pp.61-69, Tehran.
• Vusughi, Hoseyn. 1371. Lahje, guyesh va zaban dar Iran. Tehran, Rahnam, pp22-23.
• Tarjome –ye Maghamat e Hariri, a manuscript of Maghamat e Hariri in Arabic with translation into Mazandarani, Tehran, Malek library. (600 A.H)
• Zav`jalova,V:I:, 1956, “Novye svedenija po fonetike iranskix jazykov, Gilanskij I mazanderanskij jazyki”, Trudy Instituta Jazykoznaija AN SSSR, Moskva, vol.6, pp. 92-112.
• Yoshie,Satoko, 1996, Sāri Dialect, (Iranian Studies, no.10), ILCAA, Tokyo.
• http://www.irancaravan.com/Mpr.htm
• http://www.sci.org.ir

Disruptive editing by 68.5.250.146 (talk)

I’m afraid edit summaries by 68.5.250.146 (talk) - given his long history of disruptive editing e.g. at Amir Taheri – can’t be trusted. It looks as if the sources he claims to refer to were added by him (here) rather spontaneously and haphazardly via copy and paste from the above list. He very probably never read them. Note the typo "Wiesbadan": he simply repeats it. --Ankimai (talk) 01:38, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Ya, You are right, he simply paste the sources which are above (in talk page), and he never initiated any discussions, ... So what is your solution ? --Parthava (talk) 05:12, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I do not know about Amir Taheri. Parthava is a bit rude but his take on Mazandarani language is closer to reality than that of 68.... With all due respect I also do not see anything positive in the envovlement by a Nigerian in such matters as regional lnaguges of Iran. Subjects which requires expertise to the native level. I also do not uderstand why he is so anti-Georgian when he himself (in chat) states that he is a Georgian Mazandarani. But: Mazandarani is not a persian dialect. Though stating that it is unintelligible with standard persian is also a big statement. Intelligibility is a word which has gradual and relative meaning. It should be said mazandarani is a Northwestern Iranian language while standard Persian is a South Western one. I think you should use this phrase as I said. About Gilaki instead of Mazandarani. I have heard this also from another native Mazandarani that they called their language Gilaki before, though it was different than the language of Gilan. I will ask another Mazandarani though. Finanlly I should add that I am not someone who comes to edit on demand. I have my own intellectual integrity. I am not the paid kind of pesudeo-scholar who writes anything for a certain agenda. I only write the truth. I am not much into propaganda. If I can help with editing and clarifying the truth I will, but I wont undo edits by people, only because they are rude or so...--Babakexorramdin (talk) 12:45, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Protected

The page is now protected for 7 days. During this time, please try and find common ground and arrive to a version that all can live with. If you cannot, this is a good time to pursue dispute resolution such as third opinions or requests for comments. If you are ready to resume editing or to contest the protection, place a request at WP:RFPP. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:26, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

On January 11 68.5.250.146 (talk) added some sources. I am sure though that he has never seen, let alone read them. He simply copied and pasted them (because they contain the word 'dialects', probably) from this list - without realizing that he copied and pasted the typos, too ("Wiesbadan", "Geselaschaft"). This guy is a vandal and troll (have a look at the edit history of Amir Taheri, please). Regards, Ankimai (talk) 23:12, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Ankimai is making baseless accusations. He engages in revert wars on issues about which he has absolutely no knownledge. Even when you provide him with sources of the highest caliber, he makes absurd justifications for totally ignoring all references such as the one he makes now - without even reading the source! Please see his totally inappropriate vandalism and revert warring on Amir Taheri evidencing his tendency.

• Start-Class Iran articles
• Mid-importance Iran articles
• WikiProject Iran articles