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Banfield

The section on "posture" isn't working for me. Nobody outside of the The theory looks like it was created by a non-medical person who is trying to reinvent the wheel -- the "wheel" being garden variety orthostatic intolerance and hyperventilation syndrome. I'd like to remove the last few paragraphs of the "History" section, beginning from the words "From 1982-1983..." Does anyone here -- that is, anyone here except Banfield, who has a clear conflict of interest in judging the merits and notability of his own work -- object? WhatamIdoing 01:08, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

No objection here. Nothing I can find in real medical literature sugests it merits such undue space, and I agree about the COI of his expounding anything to do with his own theory in this article. I've posted a note to that effect at User talk:Posturewriter; if necessary, it can go to WP:COI/N. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 02:16, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with occupying undue space and will be happy to abbreviate my theory to one paragraph of plain text if required. I was attempting to highlight the distinguishing symptoms and the multiple factors relating to chest compression.

However please consider the following; When I first looked at the Da Costa’s syndrome page I found that it was started on 15th May 06, and after 18 months there were only 11 contributions from 5 authors who provided only four lines of text, 8 links and no references, with a wikipedia note requesting help to expand the article. Since I made my first entry only 14 days ago, 75 lines of text in six subdivisions have been added with contributions from 50 additional edits, 18 by myself, and 32 by 5 additional authors, and I have outlined the history of the subject with 6 impeccable references, and other editors have contributed an additional 7 references, and there are now 20 additional links from several authors. Please also consider that Da Costa’s syndrome is a distinct entity in so far as “it is because these symptoms and signs are largely, and sometimes wholly, the exaggerated physiological responses to exercise . . . that I term the whole ‘the effort syndrome’ “ (T.Lewis 1919) since referred to as a synonym for the ailment. With regard to orthostatic intolerance the triggers for symptoms appear to be different and there is no mention of chest pains, particularly, and, most commonly in the left inframammary area. That pain is a defining essential in Da Costa Syndrome history, and dysautonomia doesn’t account for it’s location, or why most ot the pains are asymmetric. However I have suggested how persistent postural compression of the chest produces all of the symptoms of Da Costa’s syndrome, including chronic orthostatic hypotension, and intolerance, in relation to faintness and fatigue.

In regard to the hyperventilation syndrome the set of symptoms is similar but different, and the cause is excess oxygen consumption and “Most cases are caused by anxiety or stress”, whereas in Da Costa’s syndrome the cause is low oxygen consumption, hypoventilation, during exhausting work such as running. As you may appreciate it has been quite difficult to make these distinctions when so many similar symptoms and syndromes overlap. I respect the observations of Da Costa, and the principles of wikipedia, and appreciate your need for authoritative references, which is why I have used them in constructing and evaluating my ideas, and provided them for consideration. posturewriter —Preceding unsigned comment added by Posturewriter (talk • contribs) 07:27, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Max, I apologize if my previous comments weren't clear. I don't want your made-up theory shortened; I want it removed entirely from this article. Misplaced Pages is not a reasonable place for promoting our pet theories. When a physician's group or a peer-reviewed scientific journal publishes your theory, then I'd be happy to include it. So far, however, the medical communities response has basically been resounding indifference, with a side order of rude remarks about your ignorance, and that means that your pet theory is not notable enough to justify even half a sentence on Misplaced Pages. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:42, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree, and am removing it. And we also generally need to summarise the 'case history' material (the "35% had symptoms, 38.3% had mild disability, and 15% had severe disability" kind of thing). This is an encyclopedia article for general readership, not a med journal literature surrvey.

I've also posted it to WP:COI/N. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 01:05, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

WhatamIdoing, thank you for your courtesy. I understand that wikipedia verification policy allows a person to present a reasonably arranged set of facts, so long as each of them can be independently verified from multiple quality sources, and in some cases the contributor needs to provide exceptional sources of the highest quality, for the editors to consider. I have therefore added to the after 1950 history section with an extract from an exemplary source : The reference details are: Paul Wood, O.B.E. (revised edition 1956) Diseases of the Heart and Circulation, Eyre & Spottiswoode, London p.937-947 . . . Paul Wood, O.B.E., was Director, Institute of Cardiology, London. Regarding the research relating to the fitness programme at the SA Fitness Institute, the training programme was designed on the basis that the volunteers would participate in a programme if they were able to stay within their limits and improve at their own rate. That study verifiably predates the modern methods of treating CFS which include G.E.T. (graduated exercise training), and pacing, which I would like you to consider in relation to notability. Posturewriter (talk)posturewriter —Preceding comment was added at 01:56, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I understand that wikipedia verification policy allows a person to present a reasonably arranged set of facts, so long as each of them can be independently verified from multiple quality sources

No. Only if the picture presented by that arrangement is generally agreed not to be a novel interpretation of those facts. Otherwise, it amounts to WP:SYNTH - "Synthesis of published material serving to advance a position". Gordonofcartoon (talk) 12:59, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Gordonofcartoon, I appreciate your comments and have amended the history 1982-2007 accordingly. The concept of training within limits may have been novel in the 1982 IFRT programme but it is now common practice in "pacing", which has been favorably reviewed in appropriate medical journals, and I have added a scanned copy of one of the newspaper article jpegs to my website ref.16 for verification of the project. Please also note the difference between DaCosta's exertion related symptoms and those of other types of CFS, re; your 'to do' list - Charles Wooley's Diseases of Yesteryear, Circulation, May 1976 p.749, para.2 Posturewriter (talk) posturewriter —Preceding comment was added at 00:31, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to go read WP:CIVIL now

Posturewriter, did you "forget" that promoting your own non-notable research ideas constitutes a conflict of interest, or were you just hoping that no one would notice when you added all that information again? The guideline is that a theory needs to have "received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject." Until you can produce '"significant" coverage in "reliable" and "independent" sources, your pet theory is not notable enough to justify any space at all in this article.

I'd like to point out as well that this article is on my daily watchlist, and I suspect that it's on several other editors' lists for the same reason. I think you can rely on me promptly noticing future attempts to use this article to promote your theory. (I do appreciate your other efforts, but you need to quit adding your own research theories to this article.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:49, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

WP:SYNTH?

I'm not comfortable with the current development of the article. While the explicit Banfield material has been removed, it seems to me that the citations and case material added since have a distinct focus on chest compression, breathing, breathlessness, the diaphragm etc, that smells of WP:SYNTH slanting the whole picture toward the Banfield theory. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 17:38, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I share these concerns.

Additionally, I'm unconvinced that Misplaced Pages benefits from a blow-by-blow account of nearly every paper that mentions it in passing. I've been thinking the last couple of weeks that at least three-quarters of the history section should be removed (as an issue of undue weight).

Posturewriter, why don't you put all this up on your own website? It would be a more appropriate home for such specialized material. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:34, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

As I said above, it's meant to be an encyclopedia article for the general reader, not an exhaustive academic literature survey. Liposuction time? Gordonofcartoon (talk) 20:51, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I believe that you're right. I'm thinking that the history section should be about three short paragraphs and should name the major players and their own made-up names, but not give much, if any, information about the actual studies (which should be properly ref'd if anyone wants to read more). Does that sound WP:DUE to you? WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:17, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Definitely. I've just cut another 6000-character essay. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 13:27, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm making a start. I just want to make a note here that some of what I'm deleting does not belong in this section because it's a textbook-perfect description of hyperventilation syndrome. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:56, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I just removed the Rosen section as WP:SYNTH. The full text of the article is available online here and it refers to "the effort syndrome caused by chronic habitual hyperventilation" - i.e. hyperventilation syndrome - not "effort syndrome" as in Da Costa, and bundling it with other studies to focus on the breathing aspect looks definite WP:SYNTH. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 13:17, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Gordonofcartoon; regarding your deletion of my review of Rosen’s study on the grounds that it refers to the effort syndrome caused by chronic habitual hyperventilation rather than the actual “Effort Syndrome”, I refer you to your online reference paragraph 2 page 761 here where he uses the term synonymously with the expression “chronic habitual hyperventilation or effort syndrome” which he supports with citations 9-15 on page 764, one of which is entitled “The aetiology of effort syndrome” dated 1938, and two of which were on the synonymous subject of Irritable Heart by Sir Thomas Lewis, who, as you are aware, coined the term “Effort Syndrome” because of his study which showed that the symptoms often occur exclusively in response to exertion. Rosen’s article is also useful to the history of the subject because it refers to the similarity with the symptoms of modern chronic fatigue syndrome, myalgic encephalomyeltis, and postviral syndromes. Regarding the deletion on the grounds of synthesis; my actual reasons for reviewing this subject related to WhatamIdoings most recent explanation on this discussion page. He says that he deleted much of my review of Oglesby’s 1987 article on Da Costa’s Syndrome, because, in his opinion, it did not belong here because it was a description of the Hyperventilation Syndrome. I therefore reviewed the medical literature to find Rosen’s study which discusses hyperventilation as a possible cause of the Effort Syndrome, and two others which shed doubt on it, so I wrote brief reviews and grouped them together on the article page in chronological order to include in the gap in the history of research between 1980 and 2008. I also commented on S.Wolf’s research of 1947 because he found that abnormal function of the thoracic diaphragm was responsible for the breathlessness. I am therefore replacing the article because Rosen did use the term effort syndrome synonymously, and I was not synthesising anything of my own initiative but was responding to someone else’s idea.Posturewriter (talk) 08:32, 24 March 2008 (UTC)posturewriter

I'll leave it for now - see what others think - but as I said above, everything you add spins the subject toward a focus on breathing, breathlessness, the diaphragm etc - funnily enough, coinciding with the Banfield theory. Apart from that, this article needs pruning, not expanding: how many times has it been said that this is meant to be an encyclopedia entry for the general reader, not a treatise? Gordonofcartoon (talk) 11:15, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Proposed page move

Currently, the ICD-10 names several conditions as somatoform autonomic dysfunctions. Da Costa is one of them. What do you think about moving this page to Somatoform autonomic dysfunction and giving each sub-type/named condition its own subsection on the page? It removes some of the WP:SYNTH concerns in declaring Da Costa to be the same as the others. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:43, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Rather than be criticised here, I will do some criticising of my own to give good reasons for not moving the page.

1. In 1951 Paul Wood described 6 “cardinal symptoms” of Da Costa’s Syndrome which includes breathlessness which affects 93% of patients, making it the major symptom. It is relevant to give the appropriate amount of weight to the research into that symptom without anyone making any accusations of synthesis for anyone of a hundred different theories on the subject, including Whatamydoing's, and Gordonofcartoon repeated references to hyperventilation. I note that they are not accusing themselves of synthesis of anything!

2. On this discussion page on 10-2-08 Whatamydoing has criticised my review of Oglesby’s Harvard study of Da Costa’s Syndrome by arguing that he is deleting most of it on the grounds that it “does not belong in this section because it's a textbook-perfect description of hyperventilation syndrome.” . . . and on the next sentence dated 23-3-08 Gordonofcartoon criticises my review of Rosen’s study by stating that Rosen was discussing “hyperventilation syndrome - not "effort syndrome" as in Da Costa” My two critics are contradicting each other.

3. When Gordonofcartoon deleted my Rosen study he quoted Rosen from paragraph one “"the effort syndrome caused by chronic habitual hyperventilation" and then he, Gordonofcartoon, argues that Rosen is referring to hyperventilation syndrome, and not the "effort syndrome" as in Da Costa, which indicates that he, Gordonofcartoon, did not read the full article, or the references on page 764, and in fact, he did not even bother to read paragraph 2 where it states “The disability and the habitual hyperventilation or effort syndrome”.here That sentence also ends with citations to the reference section that lists DaCosta related research. I would like to be euphemistic by saying that is not an example of top quality editing.

4. At 8:43 p. m. on 24-3-08 in his most recent comment WhatamIdoing asks “What do you think about moving this page to Somatoform autonomic dysfunction . . . Why don’t you ask Gordonofcartoon who, at 11:15 a.m. on the same day, in the sentence immediately above, criticises me with the argument “how many times has it been said that this is meant to be an encyclopedia entry for the general reader”. Might I say, it is not a place for esoteric jargon.

5. If any editors wish to use jargon which the general wikipedia reader is unlikely to understand, could you please do so on a page which is devoted to the relevant audience, or submit your ideas to the appropriate academic journals. In the meantime can you stop editing this page and leave it to me to present a coherent account of the history of research into this subject, in clear chronological order, written in plain English. Any editors who are willing to assist me constructively in that regard will be appreciated. I assume that is consistent with wikipedia's fundamental policy of democratic compilation and distribution of knowledge to the whole of society.Posturewriter (talk)posturewriter

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