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Accused of war crimes

Since war crimes allegations are a topical point regarding contemporary Balkan leaders. I added the fact that ICTY prosecutors would have indicted Tudjman for war crimes if he had lived longer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.162.196.155 (talk) 19:38, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

The ICTY prosecutor's statement that Tudjman would have been indicted if he had lived longer is verifyable as is the fact that the Gotovina indictment lists Tudjman as a participant in a "joint criminal enterprise". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.162.196.155 (talk) 23:08, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Quotes, Croatian POV

Can you explain removal of each of these quotes. The links were provided, but quotes were just blanked. Also Croatian POV (stating Tujman's opinion as facts, frequent references to pan-Serbian greater Serbia etc, as it were facts and not Croatian POV etc. do not fit into NPOV policies).

NDH was not just some Nazi puppet state, but an expression of a thousand-year will of Croatian people.

— Franjo Tuđman

There would have been no war had Croatia not wanted it. But we have concluded that only with war we can get independence for Croatia. This is why we have negotiated while at the same time we formed armed troops. ("Rata ne bi bilo da ga Hrvatska nije željela. Ali mi smo procijenili da samo ratom možemo izboriti samostalnost Hrvatske. Zbog toga smo vodili pregovore i iza tih pregovora smo formirali svoje oružane snage.) Tudjman on Jelacic square, 24th of May 1992.

— Franjo Tuđman

Dont worry about weather there are 3% or 5% of Serbs - the important thing is that there will never be 12% ever again Tudjman to the veterans of Croatian secession war.

— Franjo Tuđman

Franjo Tuđman

The estimated loss of up to six million dead is founded too much on both emotional, biased testimonies and on exaggerated data in the postwar reckonings of war crimes and on the squaring of accounts with the defeated.

— Franjo Tuđman

I will finish what Pavelic has started. 250,000 Serbs can start packing their suitcases!

— reportedly said to Edo Murtic.

Mylan 21:22, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Quotes

Here is Mylan's last version of the quotes that are subject to reverting. Mir Harven et al. delete everything except the initial note and the first two quotes. The presense of a third quote ("There would have been no war had Croatia not wanted it.") in the "non-disputed" group is something that Mylan recently started doing, and IMO it is not justified, because that quote is indeed disputed (and used to be in the disputed group). For comments on the sources, see thread "Quotes, Croatian POV".

• "There seems to be a general consensus that Tuđman has made the following statements (the parts typed in bold are often quoted alone):

Since many government-paid propagandists insinuate we (HDZ/CDU) are in fact agents of UDBA and KOS (Yugoslav political police), and point out that many of our founding members have Serbian and Jewish wives, I am very happy that my wife is neither Serbian nor Jewish, so they cannot question my credentials with regard to that matter.

— Franjo Tuđman

The estimated loss of up to six million dead is founded too much on both emotional, biased testimonies and on exaggerated data in the postwar reckonings of war crimes and on the squaring of accounts with the defeated.

— Franjo Tuđman

There would have been no war had Croatia not wanted it. But we have concluded that only with war we can get independence for Croatia. This is why we have negotiated while at the same time we secretly formed armed troops. Tuđman on Jelacic square, 24th of May 1992.

— Franjo Tuđman

• Is there also a source which disputes this? Septentrionalis 01:44, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

• Actually, no. The problem is that little confirms it either. The source given here is a recent anti-Tudjman article. The first mentioning that I know of is at the Milosevic trial, in a somewhat dubious situation (translated from a Dutch or English voicecover, and omitted by the interpreters, so that Milosevic himself translates it). Somebody asked for confirmation on a Croatian forum and no-one remembered having heard it, even though they didn't rule out that it could have been said. I suspect that the source of our source is the trial. --85.187.44.131 17:59, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

• The explanation you have just given should probably be adapted to the article, keeping to verifiability: it was said at M's trial, it is quoted by the following criticsim of Tudjman, and so forth. Septentrionalis 20:12, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

• I think that the key part of the quote There would have been no war had Croatia not wanted it should be bold, since it is that part that is most frequently quoted. It seems that the rest was provided as a context. In original, this sentence is Rata ne bi bilo da ga Hrvatska nije zeljela, and you can see that there are plenty of sources on it, not only serbian, but Croatian too (main Croatian newspapers etc. quote it without any hint of controversy) google.co.uk search Maayaa 15:32, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

• The Croatian newspapers and most of the links in general are just reporting what Milosevic said at the trial, without trying to comment on anything, so the absence of a controversy means nothing. The few other mentionings are of a later date, when I suppose the quotation had gained currency among patriotic Serbs. On at least three forums, there were people referring to that statement, but no Croat remembered having heard it, many doubted its authenticity (forum.hr, b92.net. The reaction was typically like this (p221.ezboard.com - 31k):

• Milosevic did say it at the trial:

Page 32217
15 As Jovic said in his book which was quoted here, they were
16 determined to follow this through even though at the cost of incidents and
17 conflicts.
18 Let me remind you from Tudjman's great speech, which was quoted
19 here when he said there would have been no war had Croatia not wanted it,
20 without such a war, no one would have been able to expel half a million
21 Serbs from territories which they had inhabited for centuries, and who at
22 the time of Croatian secession were not asking for a state but only for
23 autonomy and who, up to that point according to the Croatian constitution,
24 were a constituent people in Croatia because Croatia had been defined as a
25 state of the Croatian people, the Serbian people, and others, and this was
Page 32218
1 later deleted.

Spoken on 1 Tuesday, 31 August 2004 during the ,"" UN ICTY -- Esemono 12:15, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Ah i like this

"The remaining quotes are regularly attributed to Tuđman by his critics to prove his supposed historical guilt, but their authenticity is disputed.:

So, we will let east in peace, and we have to solve south and north (UNPA zone). Solve, but in what way? That is the topic of this discussion. To hit the Serbs so hard that they will disappear forever, and that whatever we don't occupy immediately capitulates in a few days.

(Some defenders of Tuđman claim that the whole Brioni transcript was a hoax, made up by Mesic controlled militia in order to discredit Tudjman and show that he planned the cleansing of the Krajina Serbs).

NDH was not just some Nazi puppet state, but an expression of a thousand-year will of Croatian people.

— Franjo Tuđman

Don't worry about whether there are 3% or 5% of Serbs - the important thing is that there will never be 12% ever again

— Franjo Tuđman to the veterans of Croatian secession war.

I will finish what Pavelic has started. 250,000 Serbs can start packing their suitcases!

— reportedly said to Edo Murtic, according to a Serbian defense witness at the trial of Slobodan Milosevic, claiming to be citing a Croatian newspaper.

--85.187.44.131 00:50, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

• Disputed and unsourced quotes should probably wait for sources; if there was consensus to include them it would be different. Septentrionalis 01:45, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

• I agree that unsuppored, disuputed and unreliable quotes should no be used as basis for wiki articles. All IP address changes should be blocked, especially for articles which have a high level of disputation. The edits by the person(s) behind the IP address, have no intention in furthering the quality or readability of the article in question. FrontLine 11:56, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

• I'm flattered. --85.187.44.131 19:05, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

• What flatters you 85.187.44.131 ? For placing heresay and engaging in sensationalism, or is this a manifestation of your croatophobia ? FrontLine 23:02, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

• You don't seem to be informed about the nature of the discussion here. At all. If I had wanted the quotes to be on the page, they would be there right now. I'm also the only one who has actually taken the pains to argue in detail against the quotes. If you are interested in what my position has been, please read this talk page and the article history. --85.187.44.131 18:21, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

On the Tuđman as president part

1. there are two statements, "backed" by Croatian sensationalist press (Nacional etc.): a) that Tuđman's daughter was implicated in a criminal activity (financial sort); b) that his grabdson somehow "escaped" from Croatia in order- the text implies- to avoid consequences of an alleged financial misconduct. As for Tuđman's daughter, the article is about Franjo Tuđman- not his extended family. The legal "presentation" is, in this matter, a poor show- Tuđman has been dead since 1999. & his daughter prosecuted in 2007. There is a grave suspicion about the political misuse of the whole legal matter at all (where had been Croatian attorneys from 2000. to 2007. ?). Moreover, if we take this legal proceeding "as is", it remains that: 1) this is about Tuđman's daughter, not about him. His property is acquired completely legally. 2) there is no evidence that Nevenka Tuđman's purportedly dubious financial transactions are connected or helped by her father. Franjo Tuđman is in no way (for instance in the prosecutor's or judge's declarations) implicated in this failed trial. As for his grandson, he (a grandson) went bankrupt, largely, due to constant media harrassment (Nacional among other tabloid trash) & switched his business opeartions to the land of his father, Serbia. I don't care about his (Dejan Košutić's) financial transactions, but would again like to stress- there is no shred of evidence his financial succes (and subsequent failure) have had anything with the breach of the law. Whatever tabloid press harps on.

2. the second thing is Tuđman's popularity. I've given the sources, but due to fluctuating nature of electronic media, it's hard to spot the TV show and public opinion polls & bracket them in time. I toned down the figures- which are between 65% and 90% (these are reliable figures from Denis Latin's show & Puls agency)- and will try to locate the sources if they are still existing on the Web. But, one thing has to be clear: Croatian Television (HRT), Večernji list,..etc. are on one scale of information reliability, while the papers like "Nacional" or "Feral" are unreliable sensationalist junk. A wiki article should clearly make the distinction between yellow journalism and regular media. Mir Harven 14:32, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

• 1)Who are you to tell what newspaper is junk or not ? For you everybody which write truth about Franjo tuđman presidency write junk. You are attacking Feral (to which Franjo Tudman in his time has given special tax to pay) and Nacional but only 1 source is from Nacional ? What newspaper for you is writing truth ?
• 2)Maybe you will even tell that Croatia court is junk because he has find that Nevenka Tuđman has used her influance in time of her father presidency to give job for server stations to person for provision. There is many other things for which she is under suspicion but I speak only for which she is guilty before court ! All in all Nevenka Tuđman has been Croatia version of Boris Jelcin daughter.
• 3)In time of Franjo Tuđman presidency his grandson has been speaking in newspaper that his greatest problem is his grandfather because everybody thinks that he is success because of him

. When his father has died ......

• 4) Smiljko Sokol president of highest court in Croatia has been saying short after Franjo Tuđman death that his property has not been acquired completely legally and that his decision in time of his presidency has been given under pressure.
• 4)For end tell me which honest president which in democracy is giving position chief of secret service to his son ?

There is no point in speaking with somebody who think that Croatia economy today has been better in 1999 (end of Franjo Tuđman rule) of 1989 when GDP has been 30 % greater. Rjecina 8:18, 22 March 2007 (CET)

Reason for today changes

• 1 Many Croats from northwestern Croatia believe that Muslim of Bosnia are Croats. From where has this come. deleted
• 2 Party which cannot be classified along criteria dominant in stable societies. Why ? How ? This is right wing party. Explain why this party is not normal ? deleted
• 3 Franjo Tuđman stalking with cease fire agreement. I agree with you but you must write that JNA has broken must of this agreements or it is misleading. Statement deleted
• 4 Karađorđevo agreement speak about Tuđman wish to take Herzegovina where Croats are majority. He has not wanted to take Muslim but Bosnian territory. changed
• 5 All comments after that deleted because it is personal thinking of user. Example you speak about views and I will show 1 example which clear state that it is not a view but fact. Link is speaking how weapons has been taken from Croatian territorial defence before Tuđman has taken power. Why weapons has been taken if it is not preparation of war ? . To make long story short personal thinking are not for wikipedia.
• 6 Significan drop of GDP in 1999 is deleted. 1998 and 1999 has been years of world wide financial problems. deleted
• 7 About Jasenovac there is no need to say anything...

--Rjecina 12:09, 30 September 2007 (CET)

Bad English

Would someone correct the English in this article, since it is really bad! (take a look at the "family"-section -> ) Adminix 20:47, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Who wanted the war

• Croatia wanted independence.
• Serbian leaders were not permitting Croatia to become independent.
• Serbian leaders were threatining with war in case of Croatian independence.
• Croatia declared independence.
• Serbian army invaded Croatia

Conclusion:Croatia had to start war against them!

Another example:

• Nazi Germany wanted the territory of Danzig
• Poland did not wanted to give their territory
• Nazi Germany attacked Poland
• Poland had two choices:to have war or to extinct

Conclusion:Poland started war against Nazi Germany!

--Anto (talk) 09:26, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

War Crimes

I changed the "would" back to "may", simply because it's a speculation that we cannot prove based on the evidence available. If there is a source that specifically says that he was going to be charged, then we can include that. But saying there is enough evidence is not the same thing. Besides, there is no telling what political pressures might have come into play to prevent his going on trial. Also, I did a lot of copyediting last night. I didn't finish the last two sections, so if someone else wants to take a crack at it feel free! Dchall1 (talk) 19:56, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

Franjo Tuđman → Franjo Tudjman — Orthography overwhelmingly used in reliable sources in English. Following the eventual closure of long-running move discussion at Novak Djokovic, it seems timely to propose this move. Firstly, the issues are essentially the same (English language sources overwhelmingly use the "dj" digraph when writing both of these names, not the D-with-stroke letter of Gaj's Serbo-Croatian Latin alphabet -- not to be confused with any other D-with-stroke characters, of course), and secondly, because the spelling used here (and at that point, not being proposed for renaming) was cited as an example of alleged double-standards. So, in theory, this should make everyone happy, right? </grim irony> —Alai (talk) 07:19, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Misplaced Pages's naming conventions.

• From WP:RM, Support: Per the same justifications for moving the Djokovic article; English usage is the deciding factor in how we name our articles; "Tudjman" is by far more common. Should be an open and shut case. Parsecboy (talk) 13:00, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

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