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"chosen" successor

How can a United Church of Christ congregation have a "chosen" successor? Something is wrong here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.110.8.49 (talk) 15:17, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

-this isn't the "Church of Christ" even though that's in its name--it's a stand-alone church, not part of any denomination, so they don't follow any rules of any major denomination.--Todd (talk) 20:39, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

--Actually, Trinity United Church of Christ is a member of the United Church of Christ denomination. This congregation can have a "chosen successor" first and foremost because UCC churches are highly autonomous, and second, because they called in the successor (Rev. Otis Moss III) over a year ago as part of a transitional process to Rev. Wright's retirement. Obietom (talk) 14:42, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Controversy

I removed the item about the award for Farakhan since he had nothing to do with it other than the award being named after him. - Maximusveritas (talk) 23:43, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I went ahead and kept it in this time since it works in the context of the other connection to Farrakhan. I moved it to the Obama section since that's the context in which these controversies have arisen. Also, I took out the bit from the NY Post editorial since that's a poor source. Maximusveritas (talk) 01:47, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

-In the Youtube video is that is cited as footnote 19, the only thing that thing Wright talks about is Clinton's lack of understanding of the black experience. There is no mention of 9/11, whites as oppressors, etc. Therefore, I intend to delete those references, as they are inaccurate, and not backed by the source cited. Also, perhaps indicative of the contributor's reliability, the word "reiterate" is misspelled.--Tkhorse (talk) 18:31, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

--The source cited in footnote 22 is Brian Ross's ABC News Blotter, a website that has been controversial in the past due to its predilection for inflammatory and attention-grabbing headlines, many of which have later turned out to be false or without foundation. Although the website has broken news stories in the past, it is a site for rumors and tips, and is comparable in some aspects to Page Six of the New York Post, except not in a celebrity or style context. The language used is often hyperbolic and intended to shock. It is therefore misleading to imply that the source is, and it is not comparable to, the television ABC News.

I have retained all the original quotations, but have made the language more neutral, less inflammatory, and in conformity to the Misplaced Pages philosophy and guidelines. --Tkhorse (talk) 02:51, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you on the YouTube citations. They were misused and are not proper sources anyways, other to provide additional content on top of a reliable source saying that these remarks were controversial. The ABC News blog seems reliable enough as it's now gotten play on television and Obama addressed the controversy himself. - Maximusveritas (talk) 05:07, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

--The current version is a great improvement, and I agree the changes. In my previous edit, I had tried to respect the additions by the previous author, and kept many of the quotes from the ABC website. But I agree that the current summary and use of selected representative quotes is much more informative and even-handed. --Tkhorse (talk) 11:54, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

--An Op-Ed article on the Wall Street Journal editorial page, whose bias is well-known (as opposed to its generally even-handed news pages) by an author with known partisan views is not a reliable source. In addition, the sentence language is inflammatory and misleading, and therefore, is not in accord with Misplaced Pages principles. --Tkhorse (talk) 14:17, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

--There should not be unattributed quotations. "Citation needed" is not an acceptable way to contribute information. The concatenation of quoted phrases into one sentence is literally the definition of taking quotes out of context. --Tkhorse (talk) 22:44, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

--Fox News and Newsmax are sources with well-known bias, and are therefore unreliable as neutral sources. They do not meet the standards of reliability and POV neutrality of Misplaced Pages. Moreover, the quotes are taken out of context, and concatenated in an inflammatory and misleading fashion. --Tkhorse (talk • contribs) 00:13, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

How can you say Fox News is "well-known" for its bias? Half the country says CNN and ABC are biased, the other half says Fox News is biased. The fact is, neither is biased as far as *hard news*; their editorial slants may lean one way or another. By excluding hard news quotations from the organization that is number 1 in cable news ratings and is rarely wrong in its hard news reporting you are showing yourself, rather, to be extremely biased. Jsn9333 (talk) 14:45, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

This is not the place to get into an extended debate about the bias of Fox News. I refer you to the Misplaced Pages guidelines on neutrality and reliable sources. I don't disagree with you that CNN and ABC are also often problematic. I have noted above that the ABC Blotter (Brian Ross) website has an especially poor reputation for sensationalizing rumors. It would not ordinarily be considered a reliable and neutral source, but it is cited in the entry because it "broke" the news (although the topic has been previously discussed in other publications).--Tkhorse (talk) 17:02, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

This is the place, however, to debate whether or not Wrights words that, "The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color." Are worthy to be reported to readers interested in "controversial" things Wright has said (that is the topic heading of the section, after all). In reality, the only reason "Fox News" vs. "ABC News" got brought up is because the user who deleted the quote said the reason he did it is because Fox is "biased". I'm not debating if Fox is biased (or if ABC is). The fact is that the above quote is probably the most controversial thing the man has said, and readers deserve to know about it without people denying them access to that knowledge because "ABC" is so much less biased then "Fox". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jsn9333 (talk • contribs) 18:36, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think there's anything wrong with Fox News as a source, but I found another source in order to get past this objection. I'm not so sure that this is the most controversial item since there don't appear to be that many sources talking in depth about it and Obama has only gotten asked about the 9/11 and "God Damn America" quotes. - Maximusveritas (talk) 06:00, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

--A Current Biography should only use reliable sources. A self-published source is not a reliable source. --Tkhorse (talk) 08:11, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

--Self-published materials which violate copyright should not be linked. --Tkhorse (talk) 08:44, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

- The parenthetical "(for its part, the Anti-Defamation League says it has no evidence of any anti-Semitism by Mr. Wright)" under Controversies is not cited in any way, and is misleading. That statement was made by Abraham Foxman, but in the same interview Mr. Foxman made it clear that he believes Jeremiah Wright's is a racist and called on Obama to confront his pastor about these issues. See The Jewish Week. I think this parenthetical should be expanded to include the greater context, with the citation added, or should be removed entirely. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sartzava (talk • contribs) 15:51, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it is cited, just as everything else in that sentence is: from the NY Times article. It comes directly from that. And in that Jewish Week article you cite, it makes clear that after some thought Foxman ammended his remarks to say that he doesn't think Wright is racist, but just that he was celebrating someone who is (Farrakhan). So it would be highly misleading to present it as you are. - Maximusveritas (talk) 17:22, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

- MaximusVeritas, you need to stop sticking 'Conservative' in front of 'critics' in the controversy section. I hardly see Hillary Clinton as a conservative. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fovean Author (talk • contribs) 00:22, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Has Hillary Clinton accused his theology of promoting black seperatism? If not, you are simply incorrect. The source for that sentence uses the phrase "conservative critic". By removing it, it is you who is engaging in POV pushing. - Maximusveritas (talk) 01:21, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

--As has been stated numerous times, the Youtube video is a copyright violation of Fox News that has been self-published, and is contrary to Misplaced Pages policy. In addition, the sentence citing the video is obviously incorrect, because if the video had originally appeared on Fox News, then the Youtube video itself could not have been the medium through which the news was first disseminated. Please refrain from reposting this again and again. If you wish to link to a video, link to one that is not a copyright violation. For example, the Wall Street Journal carries videos of Wright.--Tkhorse (talk) 11:38, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Segregated?

I read on a less reputable site that whites were not allowed to attend TUCC. If this is true it would be important to note. But it might have been that the person was merely confused as to what it means to be an African American church. I don't know. -02:17, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

This is not a black-only church eventhough their literature states "We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian..." A white member, and minister at the church, Jane Fisher Hoffman, taped a video for YouTube explaining her relationship and experience at Trinity United Church of Christ:

YouTube video of a Jane Fisher Hoffman --Spencer leon (talk) 02:29, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Rev. Wright's ethnicity?

I notice that the WP entry never directly addresses Wright's ethnicity. The photographs that I've seen of him (notably the one run by the NY Times here: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/06/us/politics/06obama.html?_r=1&oref=slogin ) show a man who looks far lighter-skinned than Barack Obama. Can anyone shed any light upon Wright's ethnicity/parentage? Bricology (talk) 06:50, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

for all the non sence he preaches about white folks his background is made up more of european genes than black its obvious he is rapeing the one drop rule by being so black--Wikiscribe (talk) 20:17, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Page protection

Due to recent media attention and the resulting vandalism, I've semi-protected this page for a week... if the vandalism resumes, and a longer protection is warranted, would one of the regulars here let me know.Balloonman (talk) 06:16, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I think people should be able to know FoxNews has quoted Wright as saying, "The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color." That certainly belongs in "controversy" because it is one of the most controversial things Wright has ever said. I have tried putting that quote in several times, and it has been deleted for "bias". Is this the "vandalism" you talk about? If so, you are abusing this page. Fox News' editorial slant may sway the opposite direction of ABC's, but I've seen no proof that their actual hard news is biased or wrong any more often then ABC's is. Jsn9333 (talk) 14:41, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

The biographical data is slightly incorrect. Wright joined the USMC first, then transfered to the USN. (U.S. Marine Corps, private first class, 1961-63; U.S. Navy, hospital corpsman third class, 1964-67.) As the page is simi-protected, I leave this comment for someone to do cleanup at an appropriate time Steve LA (talk) 15:00, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

--The isolated quotation of the statement relating to HIV virus is out of context and misleadingly inflammatory. This is because the reference is to a legitimate (but raging) debate that has been going on for many years, ever since British journalist Edward Hooper published his book, The River, which was also the subject of the documentary The Origins of Aids, by Peter Chappell and Catherine Peix. The basic premise is that the HIV virus was a mutation of an experimental oral polio vaccine developed by Dr. Koprowski (a competitor to Drs. Sabin and Salk in the race to find the vaccine) that was tested on hundreds of thousands of unsuspecting local natives in the Belgian Congo (this was back in the days when test subject consent, at least for natives in a European colony in Africa, was not even considered). Reasonable scientists disagree about this very controversial theory. Obviously, the Wright entry is not the place to go into detail about this. Therefore, to quote the few words that Wright uttered, without putting them in context, is misleading and inflammatory. --Tkhorse (talk) 16:42, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

The reference completely on topic because the section it is about controversial things Wright has said. Here are the words in case you forget: "The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color." What, then is the proper context that quote is stripped from? By all means include the context if you want... but people deserve to know he has said that. You're saying that quote does not belong in the section outlining controversial things Wright has said, and that is ridiculous. That may be the most controversial thing the man has ever uttered, and it is sad that you want to hide it from people who trust Misplaced Pages's system to provide accurate facts. Jsn9333 (talk) 18:28, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

--THIRD RESPONSE TO JSN9333: The principle of neutrality means that all sides of a controversy must be presented in a fair and comprehensive way that is not unintentionally misleading. I suggest you read the book by BBC Correspondent, Edward Hooper, The River: A Journey to the Source of HIV and AIDS, Paperback: 1168 pages; Publisher: Back Bay Books (December 1, 2000), ISBN-10: 0316371378,ISBN-13: 978-0316371377. It may or may not be true that the government might not have disclosed certain inconvenient facts in its intense and hurried effort to find a polio vaccine and in its mass vaccination program. It may or may not be true that there is a connection between simian immunodeficiency virus (SIV) and HIV due to the undisputed fact that millions of black natives of the Belgian Congo were given the experimental oral vaccine without their informed consent, not in the last century, but in the 1950's. Misplaced Pages is not the National Inquirer. It is not looking for screaming headlines or trying to sell papers. Especially when there is controversy on a topic, and especially for a living person, it is incumbent upon the authors to exercise the utmost care in presenting information in this neutral work of reference and knowledge. --Tkhorse (talk) 19:30, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Final response to Tkhorse - I'm not here to argue about whether or not the U.S. started the AIDS virus. I'm hear to say that the topic is controversial. That's the whole point... the heading under which edit in question was deleted is *controversial statements made by Wright*. The accusation that, "the government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color," is extremely controversial, and it is a hard fact that Wright said this, as reported by a top rated U.S. news organization with a reputation for accurately reporting hard facts right. By your logic Wright's comments about race should not be allowed under the "controversy" heading in his page either, because there are other pages in Misplaced Pages about racism and "the Wright entry is not the place go into detail about this." Gimme a break. Well, you can be sure that as soon as this ban on edits is over I'm going to put this one of Wright's most controversial statements back under the "controversy" heading in his entry. And if you try to delete it again I'll have to find some other community resources to help keep Misplaced Pages free from your bias. Jsn9333 (talk) 21:52, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

--I quote you: "I'm hear to say that the topic is controversial."--Tkhorse (talk) 22:37, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I have noticed your troubling and sanctimonious pointing out of other editors' spelling/ grammatical mistakes. Please cease and desist immediately as this IS a violation of the principles of Misplaced Pages. The information should and will be added. If necessary, we will build a consensus.I hope that your disruptive removal of properly cited and sourced material will end.Die4Dixie 04:34, 16 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Die4Dixie (talk • contribs)

NOTE changed protection to 5 months... let's get through the convention... until then, as is represented on this page, this article is going to be a hotbed... there is enough reverting/tinkering with registered accounts... no need to allow vandals access.Balloonman (talk) 18:04, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Theology?

Given the man is a minister with controversial theology might we speak about this in its own section and THEN show how it influences or could influence Obamma rather than assuming it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.44.178.253 (talk) 19:05, 8 January 2008 (UTC) This comment was removed by an anon without explanation. --Gimme danger (talk) 06:54, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

It is one thing to discuss his theology, assuming that you can find reliable sources, but it is a different thing to speculate on how it might influence Obamma... remember, things have to have a NPOV and be verifiable. While radio personalities can speculate on how he influenced Obamma, Misplaced Pages cannot.Balloonman (talk) 06:58, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

***Artical said he was in the Navy.I may have heard or read that he was a Marine.Which?****  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.24.48.3 (talk) 00:03, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

"Current Event?"

I believe that it is misleading to call Jeremiah Wright a "current event", as this entry is labeled. He is one of numerous individuals who has been linked by circumstance to Barack Obama and, as a result, scrutinized. Just because this scrutiny is an ongoing process that has not yet "stopped" (whatever that may mean), if candidate Obama's minister is a current event, then so is his wife and everyone else who ever influenced him and been examined as a result. At what point does it become a bio? o0O O0o (talk) 06:16, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree. I vote to remove this. Race baiting hate-mongers are not current events. Sadly enough, they are old hat. I vote to remove the tag.Die4Dixie 06:46, 16 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Die4Dixie (talk • contribs)

COMPLETE DISAGREE, it is a current event because he has just recently hit the media. You can tell simply by looking at the edit history when he became news and when people started talking about him.Balloonman (talk) 06:49, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, this is not very important to me. I see that you are an administrator: perhaps you could get more involved in Mr. Chang's removal of information about Wright's bizarre statements about the origin of HIV and pettiness in pointing out other editors grammatical errors in such passive agressive ways? Die4Dixie 07:09, 16 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Die4Dixie (talk • contribs)

I haven't been paying much attention to the article, I'm only hear because as a current event on a politically sensitive subject, I knew that this would be a heavily vandalized article. I'll try to take a look later on... right now I'm going to bed. If you think that there is an issue that needs immediate attention, take it to WP:ANI.Balloonman (talk) 07:13, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

As much as I don't wish to get into a barroom brawl, since I am personally named and my actual name is used several times, I am forced to respond. First, I was not the person supposedly repeatedly deleting the additions by the contributor about HIV --it was presumably done automatically because the page is semi-protected. I have simply been explaining some of the reasons why I thought that the reverts (presumably done automatically) were justified. The added language, by itself, was out of context and misleadingly inflammatory. I had put a lot of work in writing up these detailed explanations of the reasons, but in each response the contributor seemed not to have read them carefully before firing back another missive, which became more and more personal. So, in pointing out his misspelling, I was merely trying to request that the contributor put as much care into his comments (and additions) as I and others are putting into this volunteer effort. Of course, if English was not the first language of this person (as it is not mine), then I apologize sincerely. What I found misleading and inflammatory was adding an isolated quote without context. But the current version now does, by referring to the extended Misplaced Pages entry on AIDS conspiracy theories. Reading the entry, one sees that this is not a lunatic and "bizarre" theory, but one held by reasonable scientists who disagree. Yes, there is controversy, but it is a scientific controversy among informed scientists. That is all I mean by putting a controversy in context. --Tkhorse (talk) 11:17, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I expect with your degrees from Ivy League universities and your specializations in securities' litigation your plea of an insufficient command of the English language to civilly edit Misplaced Pages without stooping to childish displays of attacking the grammar of other editors instead of their arguments to be rather hollow. If you are indeed who you claim to be, I am surprised that you would become involved in such pettiness.Judging by the warnings that you blanked on your discussion page about your disruptive edits to the Barak Obama page I can only believe that you are trying to "white-wash"(if you will forgive the pun) the statements of the Rev. Wright to protect Obama from political fallout for his unconscionable statements. Die4Dixie 14:04, 16 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Die4Dixie (talk • contribs)

TO BALLOONMAN: Just because the entry began when Wright "became news and when people started talking about him" means nothing. This could be said about countless entries. What doesn't get added when it becomes news and people start talking about it? However, Wright is not a plane crash, a sex scandal, or an "event" at all. He is an individual, and you will notice that much of the page is devoted to aspects of his life that have nothing to do with the "current event" that you refer to. Human beings cannot be current events, and to treat them as such is not only anti-encyclopedic, but a strange way to perceive any famous individual (regardless of why they are famous). Start another "current event" entry about Wright's involvement in the political battle if you want, or add it as a "current event" section, but it is downright wrong to label the entire article as such. If it is indeed protocol, find some other related articles for me in which human beings are called current events. Also, at the top of this discussion page, there are at least three mentions of this page as a biography. A biography classified as a current event is inherently contradictory. I am removing the tab, and please don't put it back up without a better solution. o0O O0o (talk) 18:36, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

--As noted in the discussion above, the Youtube video is a copyright violation that was self-published, and also, its role in the sequence of events is incorrectly described. I have preserved the quote of Obama, but deleted the clause concerning the Youtube video, and placed it in a more logical location in the chronological sequence of Obama comments.--Tkhorse (talk) 11:38, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Can that video be quoted if it were purchased and attributed by an editor?--Die4Dixie 01:41, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

A video can be quoted from the news/radio program--just not YouTube/blog. A person with the right tools could change the video, but if it is on a 'respected' show, then it can be cited from there.Balloonman (talk) 17:44, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Current-related

I notice above that the 'current event' template was removed from this article (which is right, as it is not actually about an event), but I believe the {{Current related}} template is appropriate, as it is arguably related to a current event, namely the Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008. I have therefore added it to the article. I feel this is the best solution, as it indicates that the person in question is currently the focus of a great deal of media attention, but does not claim that the article itself is about an event. If you disagree, please discuss this template below instead of just removing it. Terraxos (talk) 15:43, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

prima facie evidence

One need only listen to his sermons to quickly determine if he is racist and/or anti-American. His statements of, "God damn America" should be prima facia evidence of an anti-American belief structure.76.189.133.191 (talk) 14:18, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

The legal standard of prima facie evidence, is by definition, only one of "first blush", and is generally insufficient without an "in context" and thorough examination of the full record with all the facts. Given the failure of these constantly aired and sensationalized "clips" to provide either of those, the statements themselves are really "evidence" of nothing, your hyperbole and ill-advised extrapolations, notwithstanding. Their rather transparent, constant repetition is obviously designed to elicit unthinking, purely visceral reactions. Pity, you allowed yourself to be so easily manipulated. 208.127.96.219 (talk) 10:03, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Nope, the clips reflect accurately what is on the whole tapes, and in context. Visit the sites where they are available in all their inglory and see that. The pompous and windy statement above denying Wright's plain views seems to have been drawn up by Algonquin J. Calhoun, . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.69.80.201 (talk) 09:01, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Has the above individual viewed ALL the YEARS of tapes to place those very brief clips in their proper "context"? The suggestion that this individual has indeed done that is not only highly doubtful, but laughably absurd on its face. Since even a cursory review of the entire catalogue would reveal far more balance than this individual has demonstrated here. Seriously, the only "pompous and windy" statements are those above, which by virtue of their specious and wholly inappropriate reference to a dated and unapologetically racist "entertainment" program of the early 1950's, speaks volumes about the writer's own transparent agenda. Any further discussions on prima facie evidence of racism can begin right there. 208.127.96.219 (talk) 11:05, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

The entire clips are available on You Tube, and the entire clips DO NOT reflect what was in the looped sound bites. For example, the sound bite that American's chicken are coming home to roost, when viewed in its entirety turns out to be Wright quoting former Amb. Peck who spoke on Fox News after 9/11. This fact alone disproves the prior assertions that the sound bites are not taken out of context. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.189.209.174 (talk) 02:20, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Removed vs. resigned

Regarding his relations with the Obama campaign, I think it would be more accurate to state that he has resigned from the campaign rather than that he had been removed. The latter claim, one that is currently made on the Jeremiah Wright page, is one that is has not been confirmed by any major media outlet. 68.196.228.245 (talk) 03:28, 17 March 2008 (UTC) 1mpossible

Organization of article

The way the article is currently organized seems to be causing some problems. We have the section on his relationship with Obama followed by the controversy section. This causes confusion since there is overlap between the 2 sections and we seem to discuss the reaction to the controversy before we discuss the controversy itself. It might be best to simply merge these sections together, though the section would be fairly large. Any thoughts? - Maximusveritas (talk) 13:33, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

--I see your point, and generally agree with you. But given the media circus, any comprehensive reorganization will probably incite such a firestorm of recrimination and resulting vandalism that perhaps this can wait until things settle down a bit. --Tkhorse (talk) 16:20, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Virginia Union University

Virginia Union University IS NOT a seminary. The Samuel DeWitt Proctor School of Theology is, in fact, the name of the seminary on the campus of Virginia Union University, which Dr. Wright did not attend.

Dr. Wright attended VUU as an undergraduate student (and later withdrew) but was never enrolled in STVU. I know this because I am a graduate of STVU and many of his undergraduate classmates can attest to his having been an undergraduate student but not a graduate student. Dr. Wright was not a student of the Samuel DeWitt Proctor School of Theology hence I changed the word "seminary" to "university" in the article's opening. http://www.vuu.edu

-Secondly, On the Matter of Black/Liberation Theology- An earlier poster (who will remain unnamed) referred to Dr. Wright's theology as controversial. When, in fact, Liberationist theological systems are prominent all over the world, especially in Latin America as evidenced by the works of Professor Gustavo Gutierrez as well as a number of mujerista theologians.

Specific investigations of Black/Liberationist models are best found in the works of James H. Cone of Union Theological Seminary in New York in addition to Dwight N. Hopkins of the University of Chicago (furthermore, Dr. Hopkins is a member of TUCC).

However, actually researching data that you cannot glibly cut-and-paste for the purpose of launching a cyber-based hit job against an entire theological system might seem beneath the overwhelming majority of those who hold neither graduate nor doctoral-level training in theology or religious studies. (Please stick to character-assassination, as it suits you best, and leave the theological, religious and pastoral discourse to the professionally trained scholars, who are far more qualified that the intemperate, unprofessional quasi-intelligentsia, who are overly-obsessed with trying to denigrate a pastor and a congregation whose resolve will only grow stronger).

P.S. - Reinhold Niebuhr's Love and Justice and The Irony of American History also formed Dr. Wright's theology in addition to the work of Dr. Samuel DeWitt Proctor (who conspicuously does not have a wikipedia article despite his prominent role in the Kennedy administration in addition to his contributions to the Civil Rights movement).

Shalom. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jerrygrimes (talk • contribs) 22:07, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps with your postgraduate degrees and interest in the subject, you could be the one to make the article.--66.20.144.188 (talk) 01:37, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Tuskegee experiments

Many people on the news said that all of Wright's statements were false or anti-american.Why are the comments not on this page even with all of the news coverage? However I thought the syphilis experiments that happened to 400 black men happened? What about that town massacre during the 1920s was it Roseville, or did he talk about the other one?--Margrave1206 (talk) 16:35, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

The Tuskegee experiment did happen. But Wright said that black men were injected with Syphillis, and used this allegation to support his assertion that the government is involved in a conspiracy against black citizens. In actual fact, nobody was intentionally infected with Syphillis. Instead, a large group of males who were already suffering from Syphillis but had not been officially diagnosed were studied and monitored instead of being adequately treated. When some of these men were eventually officially diagnosed, they received treatment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.46.242.85 (talk) 08:51, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

"chickens coming home to roost"

This quote about 9/11 is a major part of the current controversy, how come it is not included on the page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.157.192.94 (talk) 16:46, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

This video seems to indicate he was just quoting someone else with that statement: http://baldeagle08.wordpress.com/2008/03/21/cnn-msnbc-cbs-abc-fox-news-lied-about-pastor-jeremiah-wright-see-911-sermon-in-context/ Rossi27530 (talk) 14:32, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

further reading

I would like to see a link to transcripts of his sermons. -tadpol —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tadpol (talk • contribs) 19:08, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Jeremiah's mother

I don't see a reference to Jeremiah's Wright's mother - he is pale - maybe she was white. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.99.58.148 (talk) 01:11, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Haven't seen any information or pictures of her, but Wright does seem more pale in some videos and photos than others. You can clearly see, though, that he is black from these photos. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 154.20.47.117 (talk) 13:06, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I'll bet if an African looked at them they would clearly see that he is white.--Nowa (talk) 21:42, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Explanation of deletions

Space devoted to Obama's responses to Wright's comments was twice as much as space devoted to the comments. Simple as that. This is an article about Wright and the section is about the topics of controversy, not a place to post every response Obama has ever made about the comments. Let's keep in mind that the section is not about the criticism on obama, but the criticism on Wright. So Obama's response is irrelevant in this article and should probably not even be mentioned — certainly not anything longer than a short summary sentence. Obama's responses are more suited to Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008, where the topic is focused on the criticism directed at Obama. Okiefromokla 04:33, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with your edits. I just made a couple small changes to reflect that the entirity of this controversy arose during the Obama campaign, not just this most recent flurry with the videos. - Maximusveritas (talk) 13:51, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Typo

There is a typo (search for United State with no "s"). I would fix it but can't be bothered to register. --196.40.10.254 (talk) 07:22, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

NPOV tag

This is a hit job article. It lacks material from the substantial corpus of available biographical data about Wright in multiple books and publications in favor of undue weight (WP:UNDUE) to the controversies. I have placed {{NPOV}} while this is remedied. C.m.jones (talk) 07:19, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Agree that, other than for your very worthwhile contributions (which certainly surprised me), the entry is very one-sided in its narrow focus on a few phrases and sentences taken out of context of Wright's thousands of hours of sermons and pages of written work. --Tkhorse (talk) 09:21, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think this warrants an NPOV tag. Change to {{expand}}, please. — Omegatron 23:31, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the current entry, as compared to its initial versions, is greatly improved in terms of NPOV, and is beginning to present a more balanced, less caricatured picture of Wright. I am certain much more complete information about Wright will be researched and posted in the future, so EXPAND seems to be an appropriate tag. --Tkhorse (talk) 02:38, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Now the article is non-neutral in the other direction, i.e., it has become quite apparently biased in Wright's favor. For example, every single one of the "responses" to Wright's sermons listed here is positive. This creates the false impression that there were no negative responses to Wright's sermons.-Schlier22 (talk) 05:38, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I've removed the "responses," since none of them is negative, and this creates a false impression. I do not believe that a "responses" section has no place in the article. It certainly does. But the section must be shorter and provide an equal number of positive and negative responses.-Schlier22 (talk) 05:43, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Except there aren't any equal number of negative responses. Feel free to add reliable sources with criticism, rather than delete perfectly good content. Grsz 11 13:55, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Photo

The photo on top of the article should be changed to a photo of only Wright. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pmerase (talk • contribs) 12:39, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Agree that the photo on top should be changed. It might also be worthwhile to include a photo of Wright with Obama since that is what the bulk of the article talks about and is at the heart of the controversy. It makes no sense though to have a picture of Wright with Bill Clinton. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ljgrimm (talk • contribs) 14:45, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

A neutral photo would not be with either candidate, but would focus on some other part of his life than the controversy. — Omegatron 23:32, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

May I remind you that Bill Clinton is not running for anything. He was a previous President, and showing that Wright was honored by two Presidents (Clinton and Johnson) puts his life in a much less distorted and caricatured perspective. --Tkhorse (talk) 02:33, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Both photos are phenomenal. Given the very non-neutral article text here, they help balance it out...some. CyberAnth (talk) 23:01, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

The photograph with Clinton should absolutely be kept, because it presents completely new (indeed, news-breaking) information, unlike the current mainstream media, which rehashes the same few isolated quotes and stock photos again and again without presenting new information. This is what makes Misplaced Pages great, because it presents information that informs the public and that would have been otherwise overlooked. --Tkhorse (talk) 02:30, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the photo should be removed and replaced with a headshot of Wright. 1) The above photo was released to the New York Times by the Obama campaign. 2) The photo implicitly contradicts Wright's own comments about what Bill Clinton did to the black community, analogized to dirty intercourse with Monica Lewinsky. 3) The photo is currently being debated in the news as 'damage control' by the Obama campaign. Leading with that photo damages Misplaced Pages's reputation for neutrality. Frankly, I'm dismayed. With that photo as the first impression of this article, many people will view this article as obviously partisan. Given the wildfire media attention to this campaign, a distorted partisan news article on Misplaced Pages could become a news story in itself. Ten-K (talk) 06:33, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. A picture with either either candidate (or someone or something associated with a candidate) is biased. A simple headshot, or other pic of Wright alone will suffice and truly be neutral. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.55.232.134 (talk) 14:01, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Ten-K said it best. People will obvious be misled about William Jefferson Clinton and Jem Wright if that photo is prominent, as Clinton never called him a moral compass and saw him for half his life like Obama did. And it obviously shows there is a bias against the Clintons by using that pic, as that pic means nothing relevant, espcially when Wright said he rode them dirty like Monica.Tallicfan20 (talk) 06:27, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Obviously, that is a bunch of bunk. They are being mislead miserably by the text of the article. The photo let's people know that Wight is much more than a recent controversy, but an eminent American minister who was specifically selected by Clinton to attend the prayer breakfast. Remember, this is a supposed to be a biographical article, not a political hit job. CyberAnth (talk) 20:38, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

But his relationship with Obama is much more extensive than with Clinton. Why should there be no picture of Barack Hussein Obama and Wright, but one of a man with whom Wright met just once, and was only there because of the Lewinsky scandal. Barack has been under the guys wing for 20 years, and obviously has had an effect on his life, and America because Obama's book is named after his sermon, and in his first book, has a chapter dedicated to him. Without Barack Obama, MOST AMERICANS would never had heard of Wright. But because of barack hussein Obama, americans know his name now. there must be at least a pic with him if you want to do justice, or no pictures at all. This is obviously an anti-Clinton hit job. How about honor to our forty second POTUS.

Why is the picture of Wright with Clinton up again? It is not a representative photo of Wright. A picture of Wright alone needs to take its place, as this is an article about Wright.

I urge ALL, who realize that the pic should not be up with Clinton, to delete it, and get anyone and everyone you know to do so, until the editors get it. Tallicfan20 (talk) 02:51, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Resorting to meatpuppetry I see. There's a way to get quickly blocked and your views ignored. Grsz 11 03:12, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

The page has now been semi-protected until the convention is over. Should Obama win the nomination, it will remain protected through the election. Any sockpuppet accounts created to delete the picture will be blocked indefinitely, and their creator, if s/he is identified (whether by Checkuser or not is immaterial) will be blocked for a long time. This is your only warning.

Oh, and I don't want to get either talk page messages or emails that we protected The Wrong Version. Have a nice day. Find something else to edit for a while. Daniel Case (talk) 03:37, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I had already semi-protected it through the conventions ;-) Balloonman (talk) 04:10, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

caption of Naval Medical photo is incorrect.

Wright is the second, not the third, man from the right and his face is obscured by the drip bag paraphernalia. 71.163.4.24 (talk) 21:38, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

He is also incorrectly listed as a U.S. Marine Hospital Corpsman. Hospital Corpsman only exist in the U.S. Navy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.100.197.85 (talk) 19:53, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

it doesn't matter he went to the White House

the fact is Bill Clinton did not call him his "moral compass" and "religious mentor" and go to his sermons and think that about him for 20 years. I am really sick of the ol' Clinton done it too shit from Obama supporters and conservatives alike. I think we must get that picture off Misplaced Pages. It is pointlessly on it. How about the picture with him and Osama Bin Obama.

Of course it matters. This is a biography encyclopedia article, not a political hitjob blog. The photo 1) is biographical of Wright; 2) shows a picture of Wright (duh); and, 3) shows how eminent of an American preacher he is that he would be one of the 100 or so clergy chosen by the Clinton White House to attend that prayer breakfast. CyberAnth (talk) 05:24, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with "clinton did it too." In fact, quite the contrary, it shows that Wright was a political mover and shaker long before Obama. Which is a much more "total" picture than tying him solely to Obama.Balloonman (talk) 06:03, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

OK but why is there no picture on this page with Obama and Wright? That relationship is MUCH more substantial than some clinton bashing photo-op usage . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.229.15.205 (talk) 06:06, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

OK CyberAnth we know this site hates the Clintons, but in todays world, Obama's relationship with the guy is at least as relevant to deserve a pic with his bigger than the Clinton one. The fact that the Clinton one is so prominent will mislead people, into thinking Clinton was closely linked to him, as Obama is. That is wrong. Obama has called this guy his moral compass and religious mentor, and even had him on his campaign, which William Jefferson Clinton NEVER DID. I don't know how to put a pic up, but one MUST be put on of Obama and Wright, or this page lacks integrity, considering how the relation with Obama is much more than some photo op with Clinton. Oh, and you must also find a pic with Jimmy Carter too, if you wanna actually be fair. Tallicfan20 (talk) 06:24, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Iran-Contra affair

"The government gives them the drugs , builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing 'God Bless America.' No, no, no, God damn America, that's in the Bible for killing innocent people...God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme."

I am removing the parenthetical remark about the Iran-Contra affair per WP:BLP and WP:OR, because it is unsourced. It seems plausible that he was referring to this, but if it is not cited then I believe it falls under original research. Dforest (talk) 13:02, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Remove BOTH Johnson and Clinton pics for sake of NPOV

I the page oughta focus on just wright, yea it can mention Clinton and Johnson, but having pics with them will mislead people into thinking that Wright was closely linked with them. Neither Clinton nor Johnson called him a moral compass or religious mentor. Barack Obama did. It would be more appropriate to have a pic of him and Obama, considering Obama's deep relationship, but Clinton and Johnson do not need pics with Wright on the site, because it is misleading about both of them, and an attack point for Clinton haters, who are too loud and hateful. Bill Clinton did not go to his church and listen to hate speech for 17 years. Barack Obama did, but thats beside the point..Tallicfan20 (talk) 06:34, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Er, no. It is easy to see why the pictures are relevant. First, would Jeremiah Wright be notable if Obama had never come along? The answer is yes. The article existed for four months without referencing Obama. Even if Obama didn't exist, he would still be notable enough for an article. Second, how would one go about establishing notability? There are numerous ways, but the fact that he was recognized by both Johnson and Clinton are two obvious arguments for his independent notability! The pictures say nothing about Johnson or Clinton's perspective on Wright's theological activism, but rather that Wright was a notable African American on his own right. The pictures are necessary not because they convey any thing on Clinton/Johnson, but because they help establish Wright's independent notability. Finally, if Obama were never presidential candidate, then there would be zero question that the pictures are necessary.Balloonman (talk) 13:56, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Er, notice how almost nobody in America except a few political elites and TUCC knew who the fuck this guy was before BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA came along. So NO he was not notable in peoples minds to put a picture with him and a man he had little to do with. and even if so, there is no reason a picture with Obama should not be here. he is the most notable person affiliated, no DEEPLY affiliated with Jimmy Wright. This is clearly biased to try to he help Barack Hussein Obama. maybe the Clinton and Johnson pics can be there, but they should not be front in center, but being that the intent is to hurt Clinton's reputation, I say they must go.Tallicfan20 (talk) 15:40, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Every CNA that took a president's blood pressure is not notable. That Nurse Fanny changed a bed pan for Johnson when he had mumps would not establish any notability on her behalf.--Die4Dixie 15:47, 23 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Die4Dixie (talk • contribs)

But if that nurse was part of a select group of people who were invited due to her standing within a community and her notability and her ideas--and was notable enough that she was recognized by not one but two Presidents. If said nurse was the head of a major organization of nurses, then yes that be independent notability.Balloonman (talk) 17:39, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Nobody knew... and yet... somehow he was notable enough to have an article on Misplaced Pages and be invited by two presidents... and watch your language.Balloonman (talk) 17:28, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I removed the Clinton picture. Maybe we could put a thumbnail of it in a "trivia" section. What the article really needs is a photo of Obama and Wright together, or write preaching from his pulpit. Unfortunately Obama is trying to keep this story down and hasn't GFDLd one of these. 71.112.130.211 (talk) 17:10, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

balloonman, when I say nobody knew, I mean very few people knew who the man was before Barack Hussein Obama came on the scene. Obama is the guy's clame to national fame, and i mean household name fame. There must be THE picture with Barack Hussein Obama and Jeremiah Wright here, or this article is a scam.Tallicfan20 (talk) 21:18, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

O and balloonman, your cover is blown, and this is obviously a Clinton hit job. I looked at your profile and it says you support the Republican Party. Now you have absolutely no neutrality, and it is obvious you just hate the Clintons. Tallicfan20 (talk) 21:30, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Removal of original research

I have removed the original research that linked Wright's Aids comments to AIDS conspiracy theories or whatever the link was. We need a reliable 3rd party source to link this for us. --Die4Dixie 12:42, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I remove it again.Please discuss here before reinserting.Die4Dixie 20:55, 25 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Die4Dixie (talk • contribs)

Hi, I removed the link to the Iran-Contra affair on similar grounds, as he did not mention it specifically in his sermon, and it was not cited. However, in this case I think the words, ""The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color", are distinctly implying a conspiracy theory. Our article on AIDS conspiracy theories is not specific to one particular theory, so I see no problem in linking to it. Dforest (talk) 22:45, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Split into two articles

This article needs to be split into two articles OR renamed and redirected. If the article is titled, Jeremiah Wright, then it needs to be about Jeremiah Wright (and the pictures with Clinton and Johnson are absolutely necessary.) But if this is about the recent controversies and Obama, then it needs to be moved (and Clinton/Johnson pictures shouldn't be in that article.) If it wasn't for the fact that this article is already a hotbed of controversy, I would do so on my own... but since it is a hotbed, I'm opening it up for discussion first.Balloonman (talk) 17:50, 23 March 2008

actually, looking at the article a little closer, the pictures need to go back in... but there needs to be an expansion on the earlier history of Wright. I also think the section on Obama should be moved towards the end. Wright has gained RECENT attention due to Obama but was notable before that.Balloonman (talk) 17:58, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Balloonman, he is only widely known by Americans today because of Barack Obama. More people know his name than ever before because of Obama. Therefore, that picture is much more important. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tallicfan20 (talk • contribs) 21:07, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Not to mention, this article would not exist if not for Barack Hussein Obama. Tallicfan20 (talk) 21:16, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Balloonman that the photographs constitute important evidence that Wright was a nationally prominent minister prior to the current controversy. But I do not think that splitting the article into two article is necessary or even justified. One cannot discuss Wright or do a proper assessment of his life's work without discussing in some detail his relationship with Obama. At the same time, I agree with Balloonman that there should be more information concerning Wright's previous charitable work and focus, such as on religious education. --Tkhorse (talk) 21:53, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

But there also should be a pic with Obama, considering Obama brought this guy to NATIONAL fame. And something else, Balloonman is NOT NEUTRAL IN ANYWAY. Look at his profile, and he is an ardent Republican supporter, as his profile says. He obviously harbours a hate for the Clintons, which is very typical of people who "support the Republican Party" as his profile says, why else would he want to mislead readers by having a picture of him with wright at the top of his page, altho his relation with Obama is actually deep and extensive, while meeting Clinton was purely superficial.Tallicfan20 (talk) 22:18, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I won't argue that. Right now the article is terribly one-sided. Wright is being pulled through the guantlet of public opinion because of his relationship to Obama. The fact that his relationship with Obama does not mean that he wasn't a notable figure before the Obama campaign. Nor does it mean that he is the race-mongering demon with no redeeming qualities that many people make him out to be. I see the pictures not as a means to bring down Clinton and Johnson, but rather to help establish that Wright was a well respected leader in the African American community for decades. This article needs to beef up Wright's previous work. Why did he meet with Johnson? Who was he that he traveled with some pretty big names to Lybia? What did Clinton see him that he was one of a select few invited to the Clinton Whitehouse? I ask these not to bring Wright down, but to establish a broader context/history of who he was. To that end, if those questions are addressed in the article, then the pictures are absolute musts. If they aren't then the article needs to be renamed as "Jeremiah Wright Controversy" or something else indicating that this article is primarily about the Wright-Obama controversies. (And remember I'm a strong McCain supporter.)Balloonman (talk) 06:03, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I suggest that the Clinton/Wright pic be moved down to the section on his "National Prominence as Minister and Educator", a picture with him and Obama be put into the section "Relationship with Barack Obama", and a more traditional head-shot (recent) of just the Rev. be put in the intro section of the article. These moves would balance out the article, and put the photos into their topically relevant sections. Lestatdelc (talk) 07:37, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Balloonman, I know you are a Republican, and its obvious with that that you hate the Clintons, and are using your power to mislead people about him, with that picture front and center. You have obviously admitted your lack of neutrality. Jeremiah Wright was not notable to most people before BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA came on the scene. There must be a picture of that, and because his NATIONAL claim to fame is that, if that pic isn't more prominent than the Clinton one, your article has no credibility, and neither do you. You are giving people misinformation by implying he had a ton to do with Clinton. That was a superficial political meeting. Barack Hussein Obama's reason for being in public life is this guy, as he says in his books, and how he titles his speeches and his book. I will report your obvious lack of neutrality or I will find a way to make it known. You are not getting away with this horrible article.Tallicfan20 (talk) 15:00, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Please shoe me a single edit where I have pushed an agenda? Or a position? Or where I hate the Clintons? When it comes to Misplaced Pages, I take a neutral point of view (which is why a Conservative called me a pro-bloomberg neo-nazi Troll a few months ago, I wouldn't let his bias interfere with an article.) Likewise, your bias and insinuation is unbecoming. Please remember to AGF and civility. Just because Wright wasn't known by most people does not mean that he wasn't notable before the recent flap. He was. IF this article is a biography on Wright, then it needs to include the pictures and to include details of life before Obama. If this article is a piece that focuses exclusively on the Obama-Wright connection, then it doesn't need the pictures and it needs to be renamed.Balloonman (talk) 16:23, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

so why are clinton and johnson connections so much more MEANINGFUL than Obama, even tho he has been with Obama thru his career, and the others were superficial? The fact is you must have the picture with Barack Hussein Obama and Wright if you are going to have William Jefferson Clinton and Lyndon Baines Johnson with him. No he was not notable before this, he was just another black sermon. by your logic, I guess ALL of the preachers who were at Clintons prayer breakfast are notable. So write artcles on them too. Tallicfan20 (talk) 16:52, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

A case could be made for all of the ministers (regardless of race) who were at Clinton's prayer breakfast. The case becomes even stronger when there is a tie in to a second president, Johnson, where a commodation was given. The case becomes even stronger when there is a tie in to Jesse Jackson and a trip to Lybia. As for the picture being more MEANINGFUL, I have never said that the a picture of Obama/Wright would be less meaningful, what I have said is not to devalue to contributions of Wright to one simple stereotype that has become the focus in the past 2 weeks. Wright IS a notable African American REGARDLESS of the recent flack... you seem to want to isolate this one issue and make it the sole focus of his lifes work. I find that deeply condescending. Wright's career was a lot more than that, but you have put on your own political visors that you can't see past the recent flack. Rather than trying to innoculate Clinton by pretending that Wright wasn't notable, perhaps you should try to focus on bringing about the positive aspects of Wright's career? What was Wright doing good that caught the attention of Obama and Clinton? By ignoring the positive contributions of Wright, you leave only the negative stereotype---which then cn affect both presidents. If you want to defend Obama's relationship with Wright, then perhaps you should be willing to show the positives he made in the past? Sheeze, somebody reading this would think that you are the Obama basher and I was the Obama supporter! *I* want a total picture of the man, you want to preserve a caracature of him. And just so you can understand it, I do not believe a picture of Clinton/Johnson with Wright reflects poorly on either of those presidents. Right now, you are letting conservatives depict Wright, and you are accepting that depiction. I don't accept it. I think there was more to the man than a few (hateful) speaches.Balloonman (talk) 18:26, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I have to completely side with "Ballonman" here and condemn the extreme partisanship and clearly bad faith contributions shown here by "Tallicfan20". C.m.jones (talk) 06:29, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Dr. Howard

The peace mission which Wright, Jesse Jackson, and Farrakhan went on was, according to President Ronald Reagan, an "ecumenical body of ministers, led by Dr. Howard, who took this risky mission of mercy on faith." C.m.jones (talk) 06:25, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Numerous sources in including the cited book on Jesse Jackson and the Time Magazine article state the mission was arranged by Rev. Jesse Jackson. See the following additional sources: NY Times, JACKSON COUP AND '84 RACE and NY Times, JACKSON IN SYRIA SETS UP 3 MEETINGS . Serveral more sources are listed here: World News Digest, Time Magazine, U.S. News and and World Report, Virginia Pilot, etc. Jesse Jackson's Mission to Damascus —Preceding unsigned comment added by JohnBlaz (talk • contribs) 20:21, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Aids

Please stop linking original research to his statements on AIDS. Find a third party source to link the stuff or leave it out!--Die4Dixie 06:37, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Please refrain from deleting relevant contextual documentation without merit! This is NOT original research and is quite appropriate to contextually demonstrate that Wright's comments were not spoken in a vacuum. Furthermore, the information is in fact thoroughly sourced and referenced in the article, ie; Rand Corporation Study, Washington Post, New York Times and CBS. --JohnBlaz (talk) 19:38, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

This is patently false. You cannot link him like that without a third party source doing it for you. You can't say. Wright is black, blacks think like this because rand, gallop, or XYZ says they do; therefore, he thinks this way because.... presto he's Black???? Reinsert and I will remove until we have a consensus or we are blocked. I see you have problems editing pages that have anything to do with African Americans. Please stop your edit war now or provide a source that links him to those polls.Die4Dixie 21:16, 25 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Die4Dixie (talk • contribs)

What exactly is false? Dixie, you are obviously fighting against providing more context to Wright's comments. For what reason, I don't know. All of his controversial comments were run in the media and youtube as spliced sound bites without a pretense of context and some characters would like it to remain that way which---from an intellectual perspective---does a disservice to anyone who desires to gain insight into why he made them. It is obvious to anyone with half a brain that the context of Wright's remarks to his church, should be looked at in the larger context of the fact that a significant segment of Black America distrusts the U.S. Government to the point of believing the government may be complicit some odious endeavors where they are concerned. One is entititled to find it crazy to believe in such but ask a survivor or surviving family member of the Tuskeegee Experiment if they are crazy. --JohnBlaz (talk) 00:52, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Citing a Rand Corporation study the Washington Post stated, "A significant proportion of African Americans embrace the theory that government scientists created the disease to control or wipe out their communities," and a New York Times/WCBS-TV News poll conducted in New York found that a quarter of blacks surveyed said that the government "deliberately makes sure that drugs are easily available in poor black neighborhoods in order to harm black people" and a third said that might possibly be true.

If this is so obvious, then you should have no problem finding a third party source to link Wright to those statistics or to link him to "What Black People Think". For us to make that link is original research , and expressly forbidden per Misplaced Pages policy.01:52, 26 March 2008 (UTC)Die4Dixie 01:53, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Dixie is someone who has been adding what appears to be anti-Obama content at every opportunity and at many places in entry, but disguising the effort through use of Misplaced Pages jargon. He is not an administrator or a long-time contributor. What I challenge him or anyone else to find is the actual video that contains the HIV remark. Nobody has seen it and is taking it on faith that Wright said it. Maybe it was quoted out of context. Without the video, it is also difficult to add context, or to find the likely references to the various HIV theories. --Tkhorse (talk) 09:56, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I never suggested that I was an administrator. I have injected nothing negative. But I have been in contact with an administrator. My time here is immaterial, but it certainly predates your Obama-glee club edits by a considerable margin.If you both do not understand what original research is, then I suggest you find the appropriate page yourself and examine it. It is in plain English so that purposely dense and obtuse editors can even understand it 10:50, 26 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Die4Dixie (talk • contribs)

Is this a sufficient source? TheslB (talk) 18:15, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I think this paints a more interesting and significant picture of Dr. Wright re: AIDS: "As a leader, Wright defied convention at every turn. In an interview with the Chicago Tribune last year, he recalled a time during the 1970s when the UCC decided to ordain gay and lesbian clergy. At its annual meeting, sensitive to the historic discomfort some blacks have with homosexuality, gay leaders reached out to black pastors. At that session, Wright heard the testimony of a gay Christian and, he said, he had a conversion experience on gay rights. He started one of the first AIDS ministries on the South Side and a singles group for Trinity gays and lesbians—a subject that still rankles some of the more conservative Trinity members, says Dwight Hopkins, a theology professor at the University of Chicago and a church member." Isn't that more significant, and more worthy of inclusion, than a single quote from a single sermon? --Jere7my (talk) 07:21, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Context for alleged "HIV conspiracy" remark?

Will somebody please give us the context to Wright's remark, or alleged remark, about HIV being a government conspiracy? The three relevant footnotes are all second-hand. Every alleged Wright quotation I've read on this subject is extremely brief, and often joined by ellipses to longer quotations on other subjects. Since this conspiracy theory is by far the craziest thing attributed to him, let's see it in its context. Tom129.93.16.132 (talk) 22:57, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

We would need a third party source linking Wright to those crazy theories, not the 1+1 gives us XYZ original research. If by context you want the words in their surrounding context, I suggest you find those sources and add them if the have any relevance to the article. Please see the above section for more ideas about the first scenario23:24, 25 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Die4Dixie (talk • contribs)

My point is:

Transcripts of Wright's sermons are available, and videos of some of his sermons are available. But when the article quotes his alleged statement about an HIV conspiracy, which Wright is supposed to have uttered in one of his sermons, the quotation is not accompanied by a footnote directing us to a transcript or a video of the sermon in question. Instead, the three footnotes direct us to press reports in which Wright is claimed to have made such a statement. Such second-hand sources are not adequate. I don't think we need a "third party source"; rather, we need a transcript or a video. Tom129.93.17.106 (talk) 03:37, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

The quote is from the “Confusing God and Government” sermon Wright gave in 2003. See here. Also, here a columnist asks for more context: "Snippets of Wright's sermons caused a furor with a lot of people when they came to light last week. Snippets never sit well without the benefit of context, and in this case that was completely lacking." TheslB (talk) 04:11, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I checked your "here" and got the footnote section of the article. It's not clear which footnote you're referring us to. Tom129.93.65.41 (talk) 22:19, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I did check the transcript of the "Confusing God and Government" sermon. I see the quote does in fact occur in the transcript, in the form "The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color." Note 32 to the Misplaced Pages article does make that clear. Thanks to whoever provided that footnote. Tom129.93.65.41 (talk) 22:53, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

"Spliced" footage

Marked the word "spliced" as needing a cite, and it was cited. However, it was cited with a source that doesn't state the video was "spliced". So I removed unsourced word "spliced", but it is now restored. Rather than edit war, lets discuss this. "Spliced" implies that the video was doctored to make Wright say something other than what he really said. This unsourced statement "spliced" either needs to be cited with a source that claims the video was doctored, i.e, "spliced", or it should be removed. Broadcasting sound bites intact is entirely different than "splicing" pieces of footage together to make a person say something other than what was really said. "Spliced" is not the proper word here. Yaf (talk) 03:12, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

"Spliced" does not mean "doctored". See dictionary meanings below: verb (used with object) 1. to join together or unite (two ropes or parts of a rope) by the interweaving of strands. 2. to unite (timbers, spars, or the like) by overlapping and binding their ends. 3. to unite (film, magnetic tape, or the like) by butting and cementing. 4. to join or unite. With film and videotape, splicing means joining non-contiguous segments. What Brian Ross at ABC Blotter did was clearly splicing, as is obvious from the videotapes cited and the actual words quoted. If I said, "I believe that Charlie Manson said 'We should kill all the people in LA'", and you quoted me as saying, "I believe...we should kill all the people in LA", that is splicing and taking words out of context. That is obviously an extreme example, but it is analogous to what occurred in this case. --Tkhorse (talk) 13:56, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Except that is not what the reference says occurred. It says that sound bites were excerpted from the full content. This is not splicing. On the other hand, it is Original Research to claim that splicing was done to "doctor" the meaning without a cite. It is not accurate to write that splicing or "doctoring" is what occurred here without a cite. Splicing means precisely doctoring, when words are left out and the meaning is changed, such as in your example. We need to find a source that claims this is what happened; otherwise, we should remove the original research word "spliced". Yaf (talk) 15:57, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

"In another sermon from which sound bites were taken out of context and widely aired in March 2008,"

THIS is not supported by the cite. It's comming out. Die4Dixie 20:24, 26 March 2008 (UTC) 20:24, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Technically true, but that's taking things to the idiotic level, kind of like requiring a citation for "the Pope is Catholic". Were the whole sermons played? Were the clips played in context of the larger sermon at all? Of course not, so there is no problem with the language you oppose. C.m.jones (talk) 05:30, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Irreverent comment alert... but some do want a citation for "the Pope is Catholic"!Balloonman (talk) 05:33, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Presidential Commendations

I question if these were indeed "commendations". The one shown in the picture is not directly from the president. A commendation is a military decoration. The source for this is to me highly questionable as I have noticed other , to put it kindly, exaggerations of other notable African American achievements.It appears that the source does not exist to educate; but rather, instill pride in the A. American community. Sometimes the two are at cross purposes.20:48, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

"Mission to Libya"

• A 17:51 17 March 2008 edit: Controversies: Added context to Libya, Syria mission to free U.S. Naval pilot, Lt. Robert Goodman by JohnBlaz added:

  In 1984, Wright travelled to Libya and Syria with Rev. Jesse Jackson and Farrakhan in a peace mission which resulted in the freeing of United States Navy pilot, Lt. Robert Goodman who was shot down over Lebanon. 1984 @ Nostalgia Central

• The Rev. Jeremiah Wright was not in the Rev. Jesse Jackson's 15-member delegation (that included Minister Louis Farrakhan), which along with dozens of Secret Service agents and journalists, flew (commercially) from New York to Frankfurt to Damascus on December 29-30, 1983, and after meeting with Syrian President Hafez Assad, secured the release of Lt. Robert Goodman from Syria on January 3, 1984, flew back (militarily) with Lt. Goodman from Damascus to Frankfurt to Washington on January 3-4, 1984, and met with U.S. President Ronald Reagan on January 4, 1984.
  • see page 93 of Chapter 5 Syria in: Stanford, Karin L. (1997). Beyond the Boundaries: Reverend Jesse Jackson in International Affairs. Albany: State University of New York Press. ISBN 0791434451.

• Kantor, Jodi (March 6, 2007). Disinvitation by Obama is criticized, The New York Times, p. A.19:

  "When his enemies find out that in 1984 I went to Tripoli" to visit Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi, Mr. Wright recalled, "with Farrakhan, a lot of his Jewish support will dry up quicker than a snowball in hell." Mr. Wright added that his trip implied no endorsement of either Louis Farrakhan's views or Qaddafi's.

• Perhaps the Rev. Wright went on Minister Louis Farrakhan's May 1984 visit to Col. Muammar Qaddafi in Tripoli, Libya?
  • Associated Press (June 6, 1984). Libyan press agency asserts that Farrakhan met Qaddafi, The New York Times, p. A.3:

    Louis Farrakhan, head of the Chicago-based Nation of Islam, met with the Libyan leader, Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi, when he led an American delegation of Black Muslims to Libya last month, the Libyan press agency JANA reported.

Watts1886 (talk) 15:24, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I've removed this. I don't see any citations saying that Wright went to free anyone. CarlosRodriguez (talk) 15:48, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I am not convinced it was the same trip. Are there any sources connecting Wright to either of the visits? While Wright's own quote hints at controversy, the lack of sources on this seems to indicate otherwise. TheslB (talk) 18:37, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Real estate dealings

We need to add a section oon his recently uncovered real estate dealings. I am searching now for cites to add this developing story.20:17, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/03/27/obamas-former-pastor-builds-a-multimillion-dollar-retirement-home/

Any objections to using this source?--Die4Dixie 21:11, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

http://www.trincoll.edu/depts/csrpl/personnel.htm Comments made to fox were made by the above linked person whose credentials are not "honorary"; but rather, they were earned and appear impeccable. I think we should include his statements too. Opinions please so we can get an non NPOV insertion of all of this.--Die4Dixie 21:18, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't see how it's relevant. I have a problem with the Faux article, as it's horrible POV. Grsz 11 21:23, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

The hard facts are what you object to? or to the source and the academician who made the reported statements? Please say if you just don't like the source or don't like what it says or if you dispute its accuracy. As you can see, I'm terribly confused.--Die4Dixie 21:35, 28 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Die4Dixie (talk • contribs)

“Some people think deals like this are hypocritical. Jeremiah Wright himself criticizes people from the pulpit for middle classism, for too much materialism,” said Andrew Walsh, Associate Director of the Leonard E. Greenberg Center for the Study of Religion in Public Life with Trinity College in Hartford, Conn." . This is what I was wanting to add.Seemas as relevant as the other lettered peoples' comments that are included--Die4Dixie 21:39, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

What's the section going to say? That he's building an expensive house? I don't see the relevance. Grsz 11 21:40, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

That this 3 rd party source says that some people find wright to be hypocritical. We do have plenty of equally impressively credentialed people cited that are serving as his glee club. For balance we need more direct quotes from those who are slightly less than enamored with him.--Die4Dixie 21:53, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

on another note, Thanks for the honest effort to dialogue here unlike another editor who will remain unamed--Die4Dixie 21:53, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Only problem is that it has nothing to do with the "controversy". It's just FOX digging for more to go on and on and on about. Grsz 11 21:56, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

It seems to be generating its own controversy as we speak. Let me see how many google hits we'll get on it. I think that if he is being exposed as a hypocrite by a 3rd party source( Dr. Walsh PhD., Harvard)that that would be noteworthy. I'm not hard set on this, and have removed the subsection.If it picks up any steam, and if it is cited correctly to Walsh, I believe it will pass Wiki muster.--Die4Dixie 22:01, 28 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Die4Dixie (talk • contribs)

All this is is hype. C.m.jones (talk) 22:53, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Very constructive. Thank you for your contribution to the discussion.--Die4Dixie 22:56, 28 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Die4Dixie (talk • contribs)

What content would you like to see? TheslB (talk) 00:01, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Imprecations

Please stop inserting the un sourced material . Your original research is not welcome at Misplaced Pages. Also your restoring of a section on real estate that i created and then deleted makes me wonder if you even read things that you edit.--Die4Dixie 23:04, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I think the way that it is linked now dos justice to your concerns and is fair and balanced--Die4Dixie 23:35, 28 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Die4Dixie (talk • contribs)

Non NPOV tag

halelujah! Now lets talk about that NPOV in this article before you remove that tag--Die4Dixie 05:01, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

The responses that are include have significant justification. For example, the first response asks the simple question, has any of the hyperbolic critics on cable TV and the Internet watched the full videos of the sermons in question? Anyone who has not done so, or who has just seen the snippets repeated ad nauseaum on cable TV, is not qualified to give an intelligent response. The responses of McCain and Obama are significant, because the controversy is in the context of the Presidential election. The responses of clergy members are meaningful because, again, they are from people who know the body of Wright's work and reputation, who are familiar with the language of sermons, and who are not screaming that he is the devil based on distorted caricatures. I can point you to tens of other ministers and clergy (many from very conservative congregations, most of whom are not black) who have come out publicly against the unfair caricatures of Wright in the mainstream media.--Tkhorse (talk) 12:30, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps when you trot out that dog and pony show we need to link to white guilt immediately.Then we wil , as you seem fond of pointing out, have the proper context for those comments.--Die4Dixie 18:11, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Weasel words

"Sound bites from a sermon that Wright gave in 2003, entitled “Confusing God and Government”, were also shown on ABC's Good Morning America and Fox News, in which Wright made perceived controversial statements about God and the U.S. Government." Perceived is a weasel word. Either the statements were controversial( as can be clearly demonstrated) or they were not.--Die4Dixie (talk) 19:23, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Controversy is in the eye (or ear) of the beholder. Meaning it isn't a controversy to everybody. Not everybody finds what he said offensive, as evident in the "Responses" section. Grsz 11 19:25, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

"Depends on what your definition of "is " is," as a great man once said.If if I find a source that says it was controversial, may I insert it, and you do the same for perceived? Can't get better faithed than that.--Die4Dixie (talk) 19:30, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

By the way. changing the argument to offensive is a Strawman argument, and a logical fallacy.--Die4Dixie (talk) 19:34, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

By the way, "controversial" is in itself a POV term, which is why we try to avoid it (as we try to avoid characterizations in general.) Grsz11 (how do you pronounce that?) is correct here. Now, you could say that the statements caused a controversy. Different. --jpgordon 19:53, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Honorary Doctorates of Martin E. Marty

The article states at one point: "Martin E. Marty, an emeritus professor of religious history and holder of seventy-five honorary doctorates," And then at another point: "Martin E. Marty, an emeritus professor of religious history and recipient of twenty-seven honorary doctorates," That's quite the difference. And, I'm not even sure it's relevant how many honorary doctorates he has. I'm not an expert on the subject, but can someone who's more familiar with it clarify those two statements. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wsanders (talk • contribs) 22:56, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm reading it a bit further, and Martin E. Marty is brought up three times in the article, with his credentials brought up each time. This is excessive; the others need to be removed once it's clear how many doctorates he has been bestowed. Wsanders (talk) 23:03, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

• None of the references to the honorary doctorates belong. The article about Marty can discuss them, but otherwise, they're here just to bolster one side of an argument, and that's not what we want in Misplaced Pages articles. Interested readers can click on his name to find out who he is. --jpgordon 15:46, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Can they come out?--Die4Dixie (talk) 17:39, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Libya

I'm having trouble with this section. None of the sources link Wright to the Jackson entourage. Grsz 11 04:12, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I have a problem with the black Hitler stuff--Die4Dixie (talk) 16:01, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

• Here are two competing paragraphs:

Relationship with Louis Farrakhan

In 1984 Wright went to Libya with Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan. Wright has been quoted in the media: "When enemies find out that in 1984 I went to Tripoli to visit Muammar al-Gaddafi with Farrakhan, a lot of his Jewish support will dry up quicker than a snowball in hell." Wright later awarded Farrakhan a medal on behalf of his church, and Obama has been criticized for refusing to denounce Farrakhan.

• and

Trip to Libya

A gaffe of Wright's has been quoted in the media: "When enemies find out that in 1984 I went to Tripoli to visit Muammar al-Gaddafi with Farrakhan, a lot of his Jewish support will dry up quicker than a snowball in hell." The 1984 trip Wright was referring to was when he traveled to Libya and Syria on a peace mission along with an ecumenical body of ministers. Chaired by Rev. M. William Howard and led on the ground by Rev. Jesse Jackson who brought about a dozen other ministers including Minister Louis Farrakhan, the trip resulted in the freeing of United States Navy pilot Lt. Robert Goodman, who was captured after his fighter jet had been shot down over Lebanon. At a January 4, 1984 White House ceremony welcoming Lt. Goodman home, U.S. President Ronald Reagan stated, "Reverend Jackson's mission was a personal mission of mercy, and he has earned our gratitude and our admiration." Wright has stated that his participation in the trip implied no endorsement of either Louis Farrakhan’s views or Gaddafi’s.

I think the shorter version is superior. First off, calling the statement a "gaffe" is inaccurate, or at best an opinion. It was more of a perhaps ironic comment. In my opinion. Second, the cited source in the short version is the original, not a reprint from a year later (it was an NYT article.) Third, the short version doesn't try to argue one side or another; it just presents the facts. The shorter version is still faulty, though. Saying someone hasn't done something is by definition POV (it implies the person should do something.)

We can turn this into an NPOV article without including a lot of over-the-top rhetoric. --jpgordon 17:23, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree, except the comment on Obama belongs, IMHO, on his page and not here.--Die4Dixie (talk) 17:37, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

The Relationship paragraph is blatant POV. Grsz 11 17:43, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Change tile to Libya trip and remove mention of Obama? Also , claims of NPOV with out supporting reasons is not useful. I don't like it isn't good enough--Die4Dixie (talk) 17:55, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

• This unsourced sentence proposed for a "Relationship with Louis Farrakhan" subsection by Jpgordon is false:

  Wright later awarded Farrakhan a medal on behalf of his church, and Obama has been criticized for refusing to denounce Farrakhan.

  • Holan, Angie Drobnic; Hollyfield, Amy Holan (January 18, 2008). Related magazine, not church, gave award. Politifact.com
  • Holan, Angie Drobnic; Hollyfield, Amy Holan (January 18, 2008). Obama decried Farrakhan's racism. Politifact.com
  • Chiachiere, Ryan (March 3, 2008). Russert falsely attributed "epitomized greatness" quote to Rev. Wright. Media Matters for America
• The "Relationship with Louis Farrakhan" subsection added at 18:48 on 30 March 2008 by Schlier22 and reverted 14 minutes later at 19:02 on 30 March 2008 by TheslB cited as its only source:
  • Kessler, Ronald (January 14, 2008). Obama's Minister Honored Farrakhan. Newsmax.com
    • but Ronald Kessler and Newsmax.com do not have a neutral point of view and are not reliable sources.
• This unsourced sentence now in the Trip to Libya subsection of this article is false:

  The 1984 trip Wright was referring to was when he traveled to Libya and Syria on a peace mission along with an ecumenical body of ministers.

• Wright was not in Jackson's 15-member delegation (which included Farrakhan) and secured the release of Goodman from Syria.
• None of these cited references mention Wright (because he was not on Jackson's mission with Farrakhan to Syria to free Goodman):
  • Raines, Howell (January 4, 1984). Jackson coup and '84 race, The New York Times, p. A.8.
  • Stone, Eddie (1988). Jesse Jackson. Los Angeles: Holloway House Publishing. ISBN 087067840X. pp. 197–202.
  • Stanley, Alessandra (January 16, 1984). An officer and a gentleman comes home, Time.
  • Reagan, Ronald; Woolley, John T.; Peters, Gerhard (January 4, 1984). Remarks to Reporters Following a Meeting With Navy Lieutenant Robert O. Goodman, Jr., The American History Project.
• Wright's remark about his 1984 trip with Farrakhan to Libya was made in a two-hour interview in Chicago on Monday, March 5, 2007, with New York Times reporter Jodi Kantor and published in her story the following day:
  • Kantor, Jodi (March 6, 2007). Disinvitation by Obama is criticized, The New York Times, p. A.19:

    In Monday’s interview, Mr. Wright expressed disappointment but no surprise that Mr. Obama might try to play down their connection.
    
    "When his enemies find out that in 1984 I went to Tripoli” to visit Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi, Mr. Wright recalled, “with Farrakhan, a lot of his Jewish support will dry up quicker than a snowball in hell.” Mr. Wright added that his trip implied no endorsement of either Louis Farrakhan’s views or Qaddafi’s.

  • Wright, Jeremiah (March 11, 2007). "Letter to The New York Times" in: TUCC Bulletin - March 18, 2007, pp 10–12.
• Wright's remark may indeed have been a "gaffe", but per WP:NOR, Misplaced Pages should not be the first to characterize it as a "gaffe".
• Using the original March 6, 2007 New York Times article by Kantor would be a better (and more accurate) source for Wright's quote than the now used anonymously-authored article written over 10 months later and 4,000 miles away in London's The Sunday Times:
  • anonymous (January 13, 2008). Dirt begins to fly at Obama, The Sunday Times.
• Or better still, remove the Trip to Libya subsection of the Controversy section because, with no reported further details about Wright's trip twenty-four years ago to Libya, no real controversy about it has yet developed.

Watts1886 (talk) 21:38, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Responses

The negative responses which I've added belong. Grsz: You are being very disingenuous. You removed one of the responses which I listed on the grounds that it "is a response to the responses and not to Wright himself," while neglecting to notice that Martin E. Marty, in one of the responses kept, is also giving a response to the responses. You removed another of the responses I listed because it is a "response to Obama, not to Wright." But it is obvious that the quote from McCain can also be construed as a response to Obama, since it is determined by McCain's alleged personal familiarity with Obama. Finally, David Sirota, whose response is kept, writes a regular column for The Nation magazine, which certainly qualifies as an "opinion magazine," if National Review does. In short, all of criticisms you've raised against including the negative responses that I've posted fail, for each of these criticisms can also be applied to the positive responses which you've maintained.-Schlier22 (talk) 04:33, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

WP:BLP has very strict guidelines when including criticism of living persons.

• Kurtz's comment has no place here, as it's purely satirical and provides nothing relevant.
• You're right about Marty, i'll try and remove it, but that doesn't mean Hanson gets to stay.
• And like I said about Goldberg, it's a response to Obama, and should be addressed in the controversy section of Obama's campagin article if anywhere. Grsz 11 04:40, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I removed not only yours, but other responses on the grounds I've already stated. Grsz 11 04:43, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Kurtz's comment does have a place. If the comment by the actor stays, which is equally satirical, so does Kurtz's.-Schlier22 (talk) 04:59, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

How is Weber's comment at all satire? Grsz 11 05:02, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Do you need a magnifying glass? "The one that the mainstream media diced and sliced and handed out like amphetamine-laced communion to its maddeningly impressionable flock?"-Schlier22 (talk) 05:04, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Sarcasm would be a better description of Kurtz. On the other had, Weber specifically addresses the situation, and what he thinks is happening to people who view the story. Grsz 11 05:09, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Satire: the use of irony, SARCASM, ridicule, or the like, in exposing, denouncing, or deriding vice, folly, etc. Weber-- btw, quite an authority, as an ACTOR (this is sarcasm, but if I'm pointing this out to deride you, it can be interpreted as satire)-- is responding very similiarly to Kurtz. Kurtz also is specifically addressing the situation (his point is that the content of Wright's sermons could only be acceptable by an adherent to the sort of radical philosophical positions which he describes) and what he thinks is happening to people who view the story (viz., these people are finding Wright's sermons acceptable due to thier adherence to these radical philosophical positions).-Schlier22 (talk) 05:16, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

As it says in the history tab, Kurtz stated, "OK, I’ve been tweaking actual deconstructionist and post-colonial texts, and adding some "original" analysis of my own, to fit the Wright affair". This piece is not about Wright. Its about Kurtz and is his harangue against those academicians who find postmodernism a useful analytic tool. He just hitches on to the Wright affair hype to draw reader attention to his piece. Cryptographic hash (talk) 09:19, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

If we have Wright's sycophantic glee club's responses, then we must give balanced shrift to his detractors and their responses. The article should not read like an apologetic essay.--Die4Dixie (talk) 15:43, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Die4Dixie: Precisely. This whole article on Wright is an apologetical essay. Cryptographic hash: Your analysis of Kurtz's intention is wrong. Kurtz is using postmodernism to interpret Wright's sermons, but he's doing so satirically, i.e., in imitation of those postmodernists who have interpreted Wright's comments favorably. His point is that only such postmodernists are capable of disguising the real, hateful nature of selections from Wright's sermons. This is why he concludes that, "The serious point is that these radical theorists, so popular in America’s academy, do in fact approve of figures like Wright, which is why respectable universities have tenured Wright’s spiritual mentors."-Schlier22 (talk) 16:08, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

• Satire is not helpful in encyclopedia articles. --jpgordon 16:15, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I say no inclusion of either satirical parts, from either side. But we need some conservative detrators to give balance. If they didn't exist, then all these cheerleader's wouldn't have made any comments. to put their responses to the conservative criticism , with out the conservative criticism that generated the response is academically dishonest.--Die4Dixie (talk) 16:35, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Die4Dixie.-Schlier22 (talk) 16:37, 30 March 2008 (UTC) I've added a more conservative response from Ben Wallace-Wells.-Schlier22 (talk) 16:38, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Responses listed in this article should be directly relevant to the article. We could have people from Alec Baldwin to Zelda Rubenstein responding to the controversy, but who cares? The responses should be strictly limited to things like the church, the current Presidential candidates, etc. - people who are involved in the controversy in some fashion or who are part of the reason why the controversy has become notable. In other words, merely finding some guy who publishes an opinion column and posting a quote from it here, even if the person is notable in his own regard, simply isn't notable in the context of this article. --Dachannien_Contrib 16:40, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

If we're going to quote actors like Weber, then there's nothing wrong with quoting a columnist from Rolling Stone. But even if we aren't going to quote Weber, then we can still quote this particular quote from this particular columnist. Why? Because the quote captures not so much the columnist's perspective, but rather the rage, lack of control, and irresponsibility that is inherent in so many of the Rev. Wright's sermons.-Schlier22 (talk) 17:08, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Mmm. You need to become more familiar with WP:NPOV. We're not supposed to be pushing a viewpoint here; we're supposed to be reporting facts, as neutrally as possible. --jpgordon 17:10, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Why is Wallace-Wells's opinion any more important than Weber's, Brit Hume's, Margaret Thatcher's, or mine? The answer: it's not. Countless columnists and other opinion-foisters have pontificated on this issue since it hit the media. None of them have any notability in the context of this article; merely being notable and voicing an opinion does not make that opinion notable. By limiting the scope of the "responses" section to people who are either involved in the controversy or linked to the reasons why it's notable (as I've mentioned above), we can avoid cherry-picking and synthesis of opinions. --Dachannien_Contrib 17:34, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I see two people pushing an angle here trying to ram a claim of "consensus" when the edit history and talk history deny them that very clearly. CyberAnth (talk) 17:36, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Slow down please

Could everyone please slow down on the edits? We seem to be able to discuss the article reasonably; I think it's time for talk first, edit later -- even if I've violated this myself. Right now, the article is in thrash mode, which doesn't help anything. --jpgordon 16:59, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Agree: Revert to your last edit and lets talk. I wanted this for a minute now. Good luck getting certain ham fisted editors to join us--Die4Dixie (talk) 17:08, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

No, I won't revert. We'll all talk. Or I'll ask (and receive) full page protection, but I'd really rather not have to go that far. --jpgordon 17:09, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

to which edit would the protection work from?--Die4Dixie (talk) 17:11, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm hoping one with fewer (or no) quotes from people who are irrelevant to the topic at hand. --Dachannien_Contrib 17:18, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

The protection would be of the wrong version, as always. --jpgordon 17:25, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Roflmao :). True. I have requested all recent editors to come to talk page, even the ones I don't agree with.--Die4Dixie (talk) 17:29, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

honorary doctorates and naivete

OK.

Martin E. Marty, an emeritus professor of religious history and holder of seventy-five honorary doctorates,...

What's the point of including the honorary doctorate stuff? To my eyes, it seems to be for the purpose of inflating Marty's credibility for the purpose of supporting this argument. Since we don't list the religious and academic background of most people here stating their opinions, there's no particular reason to mention Marty's. As I said in my edit comment, people interested in who Marty is will click on the link.

Likewise, why are we assuming our readers are illiterates by pointing one word to wiktionary? --jpgordon 17:07, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

' Agree': the wikilink to his page is sufficient.--Die4Dixie (talk) 17:10, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

You ALWAYS give a brief overview of who the person is, no matter who they are. An article should be completely self-contained, and written as if it were to be printed out and read. CyberAnth (talk) 17:38, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

• In that case, "professor of religious history" would suffice; you don't need his honors and awards. Also -- I'm not sure we really want to consider blurbs as reliable sources; they're generally marketing tools, not reference documents. --jpgordon 17:42, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't ALWAYS do anything. I see that some editors seem to treat this article as their personal property with their fiefdomism .--Die4Dixie (talk) 17:45, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Jpgordon on this - stating his title and where he used to teach would be more than sufficient, especially considering that honorary degrees are of even less credential value than Microsoft certifications. :p --Dachannien_Contrib 17:48, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you ALWAYS tell your reader who is talking - didn't you learning that in English 101 in college, or did you go yet?

Replying to "Jpgordan": No way. That is like calling Michale Jordan simply "a basketball player". Martin E. Marty is a world-renowned religious history scholar and people ought be told that right up front so they know who is speaking.

Also, on another issue here, you have to assume your readers are literate on the level of about an 8th grade reading level - the national average - so it makes great sense to wikilink some words to the "Wiktionary".

CyberAnth (talk) 17:49, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

If true, let's add that he used to hold an endowed chair, so we know exactly WHO he IS.--Die4Dixie (talk) 17:51, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

And Wikilink to the controversy section about these dubious degrees.Die4Dixie (talk) 17:54, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

That's like saying only that Michael Jordan played for the Bulls and leaving it at that. Martin E. Marty should be called "a world-renowned authority on religion and ethics in America". CyberAnth (talk) 17:56, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't know - that seems like the sort of phrasing that begs to have "considered by some to be" inserted in front of it. Is there a better way to convey why he's notable in this context besides honorary degrees of dubious import or potentially POV assertions of authority? --Dachannien_Contrib 18:01, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, there is no disputing the fact that Marty is "a world-renowned authority on religion and ethics in America." Now, that doesn't mean that his interpretation is accepted by all, but you would be hard pressed to find a credible source that doesn't say this. To continue the Jordan analogy, there is no disputing that Jordan is a great basketball player. He is "considered by some to be" the best basketball player ever. Marty is an authority, and possibly "considered by some to be" the authority. But the article is making the claim that he is THE authority.Balloonman (talk) 18:20, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Book review clubs, trying to sell us things, even if it is the Harvard press should be discounted.--Die4Dixie (talk) 18:02, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Good thing that's not a book review club but Harvard Press. CyberAnth (talk) 18:10, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Who is trying to hawk us his books that THEY published. don't be dense.--Die4Dixie (talk) 18:13, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

You are showing your lack of life experience here. World-renowned academics become so through a long history of very important publications and collecting honorary doctorates in recognition of those and other qualities. The best way to handle the matter is to keep the current text: "a professor emeritus of religious history and holder of 75 honorary doctorates". Then people can make up their own mind how to weigh it. CyberAnth (talk) 18:05, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me? This discussion isn't about me. Besides, you just got done saying that we should assume our readers are at an eighth-grade level, and most eighth graders (not to mention most non-academics in general) will probably give undue weight and inference to the mention of honorary degrees. --Dachannien_Contrib 18:09, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Clintons minister

The mention of the Clintons and there former pastor is gratuitous. One editor argues that it establishes notability. my argument is that does the Girl who gave them change at Starbucks have notoriety in the same fashion. It needs to come out, IMHO--Die4Dixie (talk) 17:50, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Rather than focus on individual quotes and examples from that section, we need to establish a uniform guideline for what qualifies as notable and acceptable in this context. Once that's done, determining what can stay and what can go (including future contributions from other editors) will be much easier. --Dachannien_Contrib 17:54, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

You are going to get a lot of Clinton supporters protesting that, but that is exactly the reason why the pastor's comments are note worthy. Without the association, you might as well call him Joe Smoe. CyberAnth (talk) 17:58, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

He is Joe Smoe, and I'm no Clinton lover. Obama supporters try and White wash Wright in this manner.Die4Dixie (talk) 18:04, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Mmm. Keep in mind this is an article about a person who is interesting primarily because he's the pastor of a (possible) future President; this makes the pastor of a past President and a (possible) future president a lot more interesting and quotable. --jpgordon 18:12, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I suppose that if this minister had generated as much controvery for the Clinton's, then it might be noteworthy.--Die4Dixie (talk) 18:15, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

That's a pretty high bar. --jpgordon 18:17, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Protection

I think this article is certainly a good candidate for full protection. Several of us are guilty of edit warring, probably most of us have violated 3RR. Grsz 11 18:18, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

• I've requested it. --jpgordon 18:23, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed--Die4Dixie (talk) 18:34, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

 Done, once it expires the 4 month semi-protection for the extreme vandalism needs to be placed back on it. Tiptoety 19:06, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks much. Let's not let this time go to waste, by the way. We should at least try to achieve a consensus in principle by the time the protection expires. --Dachannien_Contrib 19:28, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Criteria for quoting opinions

Most of the edit warring today seems to revolve around whether one opinion or another should be included in the article. I'd rather avoid going into the whys surrounding each individual case; rather, I'd like to arrive at a consensus on some criteria that we can use to determine what's appropriate or inappropriate to include.

I personally feel that the criteria should be fairly strict. What we've seen so far is that people are citing opinions by people who, however well-known or well-regarded they may be, have little personal connection with Wright or with the circumstances that have made Wright notable. To a large degree, these opinions are being added to the article to subvert the rule against original research, by cherry-picking and synthesizing these opinions and hiding behind the fact that citations are provided. This should be avoided, and I think the best way to do this is to greatly limit the domain from which these opinions can be drawn.

I propose that the following domains be fair game, as long as the commenters in question are responding to Wright's statements directly:

• Jeremiah Wright, his successor, and members of his church who are already otherwise notable
• Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, John McCain, and representatives of their campaigns

There may be other appropriate domains here, and there may be restrictions on these domains that would be appropriate, which is one thing we'll need to hash out here. Thanks. --Dachannien_Contrib 19:45, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Except this article isn't about Obama, Clinton, or McCain. Grsz 11 19:46, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I mean, if they're replying directly to what Wright said that's fine. Grsz 11 19:48, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, that was my intention, but I guess I forgot to say it ;) I've edited my proposal above to reflect this. --Dachannien_Contrib 19:59, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree in principle; however,I do not believe that the article should read like an apologetic essay. The arcticle should be balanced, and there is room for source material from sources that are less than enamored with him.--Die4Dixie (talk) 20:08, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, we already have viewpoints from both sides within the above-given domains (I'm actually surprised that Clinton's "he wouldn't be my pastor" comment hadn't shown up here), but if you think there is another class of people who have the notability in the context of the article, go ahead and explain what that class is and why its members qualify as more than just part of the talking heads parade. --Dachannien_Contrib 20:15, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not being dense, but you of course don't think it should read like an apologetic essay, do you?--Die4Dixie (talk) 20:17, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

That's kind of a loaded term. But most of the apologies you're talking about would probably be outside the domains I listed above. That's part of why I'm favoring this approach, because it will prevent the addition of endless point-and-counterpoint opinions which purport to try to apply NPOV, even though there was no POV problem in the first place. --Dachannien_Contrib 20:41, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm on board for balanced, and I think I am hearing you say that the article lacked balance. Would the mixed race couple that he married be included?--Die4Dixie (talk) 20:53, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Problem with a source

i have a problem with the corinth. bulletin as a reliable source. Many other sources go back to it, and it is of dubious reliability IMHO. I think that anything that comes from it, and the text below the web page with it( and no author attributed to it) should be removed and reliable sources be used. This would not include ones that work forward from this questionable source.--Die4Dixie (talk) 20:14, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

What contentious material is being supported by the cite that you would like to see a better source for? TheslB (talk) 20:55, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Particularly the citations about Johnson. The letter from a Johnson aid that is attached to the photo is not a commendation. It is a thank you letter, and not even from the president himself. I think this might be some of the hyperbole that the black church, according to the professor who possess "75 honorary doctorates", employs. If it is hyperbole, then it should not be included.Die4Dixie (talk) 21:06, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Do either of these sources suffice? Predictions of God's damnation emanate from both black and white churches: "King delivered that speech the year Rev. Wright ended his six years of service in the U.S. Marine Corps and Navy, for which he received three commendations from President Lyndon Johnson, whom King was confronting." or The Lies and Distortions of the 30-Second Sound Bite: " served six years in the U.S. Marines, much of that time as a hospital corpsman, and received a letter of commendation from President Lyndon Johnson for assisting in his heart surgery procedure in December 1964." TheslB (talk) 21:30, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I believe that the reporter used Misplaced Pages for the first instance as his source, and the second is probably the letter, which is not a commendation from the president, but rather a nice thank you letter from a presidential aid. To call it a commendation, especially in connect to his service, will only confuse readers and purposely mislead them. A commendation is a particular award/ decoration for service that entitles the receiver to were a specific ribbon or medal. Do you dispute that the thank you letter that appears in the picture with Johnson is not a presidential commendation?Die4Dixie (talk) 21:47, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

the second source is unreliable, as half of it is not true for sure, and the rest suspect. a Hospitalman/ corpsman is not a Marine, but a sailor, and clearly in the Navy. If this source cannot get what branch he was in right, what the hell will he know about commendations?--Die4Dixie (talk) 22:04, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

The first sentence of the commendation letter reads, "The President thanks you for your help at the time of his recent hospitalization." Wright's biography at the The HistoryMakers reads: "Wright is the recipient of numerous awards, including three honorary doctorates and three presidential commendations." TheslB (talk) 22:36, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

--Die4Dixie (talk) 22:59, 30 March 2008 (UTC)==Comments after September 11== This section should be amended to the effect that Template:Editprotect "No evidence has been offered to show that Wright quoted accurately, or paraphrased fairly, Peck."

Further detail could include:

According to LexisNexis transcripts, Peck did not appear on Fox News during the time from September 11, 2001 to September 16, 2001, the date it is said that Wright delivered his sermon. Peck made three appearances on Fox News on October 5, 10 and 11, 2001. During these appearances, Peck did not mention Malcolm X, "chickens coming home to roost", or bombing Hiroshima or Nagasaki, etc."

Youngwarrenbuffett (talk) 21:47, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure exactly what you mean . How would you incorporate that into the article? What does this mean?--Die4Dixie (talk) 21:55, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Do you have any supporting evidence whatsoever? Grsz 11 22:05, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Just my incomprehension. It's a gut reaction, I can't source it.--Die4Dixie (talk) 22:08, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Interest of fair disclosure

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk%3ATheslB&diff=202143637&oldid=202140817

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk%3AGrsz11&diff=202145876&oldid=202140807

both editors blanked their pages rather quickly. I am concerned that these might be good hand bad hand accounts. One has been created recently and the skill of wiki manoevering is impressive. One was able to report me quickly to an admin notice board quickly. I want a public statement that these users do not edit with other accounts, and if they have, a disclosure of those accounts. I'm not saying they are, but a user check might be in order and would help me assume good faith.--Die4Dixie (talk) 23:05, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

1. Disinvitation by Obama Is Criticized, New York Times, March 6, 2007
2. Dirt begins to fly at Obama London Sunday Times, January 13, 2008
3. "JACKSON COUP AND '84 RACE". New York Times (Subscription required to access full article). January 4, 1984. Retrieved 2008-03-25. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
4. Stone, Eddie (1988). Jesse Jackson. California: Holloway House Publishing. pp. 197–202. ISBN 0-87067-840-X.
5. Stanley, Alessandra (January 16, 1984). "An Officer and a Gentleman Comes Home". Time Magazine. Retrieved 2008-03-23. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
6. Stone, Eddie (1988). Jesse Jackson. California: Holloway House Publishing. pp. 197–202. ISBN 0-87067-840-X.
7. Reagan, Ronald (January 4, 1984). "Remarks to Reporters Following a Meeting With Navy Lieutenant Robert O. Goodman, Jr". The American Presidency Project. Retrieved 2008-03-23. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
8. Cite error: The named reference kantor2 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
9. Marty, Martin E. (2008), The Christian World: A Global History. Random House, back sleeve.

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