Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 07:57, 3 April 2008

The project page associated with this discussion page is an official policy on Misplaced Pages. It has wide acceptance among editors and is considered a standard that all users should follow. Before you update the page, make sure that changes you make to this policy really do reflect consensus.

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Florida

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but why do BLP have to adhere strictly to the law in Florida? Is that where the Misplaced Pages servers are located or something? Was Florida inserted as vandalism? I'm confused. Thanks, Helikophis (talk) 17:35, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

You are correct. The servers are located in Florida. Would there be any objection to adding a footnote to the policy noting that the servers' location is the reason for this? JoshuaZ (talk) 02:25, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

We have equipment located in South Korea and Europe as well. Wikimedia Foundation was incorporated and used to be headquartered in Florida as well as having its main servers there. Now we are headquartered in California. Further, since volunteers and Foundation employees can be extradited and/or charged where they live around the world, perhaps specifying "Florida" is a bit simplistic. Perhaps the Foundation lawyer could be asked to the proper phrasing. WAS 4.250 (talk) 04:59, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't know why specific laws are even mentioned. We don't need people (especially non-lawyers) trying to interpret laws to apply to Misplaced Pages content and I would hope that we could do better with BLPs than simply ensuring that they aren't criminal libel. Would there be any objection to removing or generalizing it? Mr.Z-man 18:22, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps changing it to merely be a reference to WP:LIBEL, which covers all libel including related to BLPs anyway. WAS 4.250 (talk) 18:59, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for bringing up this interesting point. I made a post here about it earlier (look higher up this page) that was ignored/got no responses, and I'd be curious to hear some discussion about this. What happens when someone who is not a lawyer themselves or is too poor to consult a lawyer (like me, for example) gets involved with that? mike4ty4 (talk) 04:39, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I would have no objection to adding a footnote to the statement "Such material requires a high degree of sensitivity, and must adhere strictly to the law in Florida, United States and to our content policies..." that reads something along the lines of this (without the messagebox, I just wanted to format the note for ease of reading):

This leaves open the possibility that other laws may (and do!) apply, while specifying why Florida is mentioned in this context. In this manner, something that might not be OK everywhere isn't permitted just because Florida might be ok with it. Incidentally, if we have servers elsewhere, we should probably mention them if their laws apply differently as a result. UltraExactZZ ~ Evidence 12:12, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

What about the lawyering thing I mentioned? mike4ty4 (talk) 20:09, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. It would make sense to include some explanation. I do like your solution, UltraexactZZ. Helikophis (talk) 13:19, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

3 revert rule does not apply to BLP?

I hadn't noticed that slipping in. Can someone who added that please show the discussion and rationale for that change? --Kim Bruning (talk) 09:56, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

It's been here for ages and is widely agreed and acted on. I think it's also in the 3RR policy. People are cautioned, however, not to go wild on it. :-) SlimVirgin 12:12, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Of course, if a particular edit is obviously a BLP violation another user will have beaten you to the fourth revert. That's the way I look at it, anyway. — CharlotteWebb 13:31, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Not necessarily especially if it is an obscure article. My impression is that in practice this is enforced with varying levels on WP:3RRV. Some admins will block if the person who is claiming there is a BLP violation is clearly whitewashing; others take it as applying only to straight-BLP violations (i.e. poorly sourced contentious content or poorly sourced potentially negative or defamatory content) and not applying BLP-penumbra issues (that is well-sourced content that may or not be included based on privacy and other concerns that isn't a blatant privacy problem like a phonenumber). This is to me at least one more reason we should make a distinction in policy between strict BLP and and BLP-penumbra issues. JoshuaZ (talk) 15:30, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

The idea is pretty uncontroversial, but there have been several very, very notable instances (the Mantanmoreland RFAR is a good example, where Crum375 took it upon himself to take on the entire community, the AC clerks, and Arbiters themselves) over a removal whose validity under BLP was disputed. There should be wording that a disputed BLP removal is never automatically exempt, and the community of users (not just admins, as Crum375 at one point asserted) need to decide together with the minority following consensus or risking a simple 3RR/disruption block, as Crum himself did here. That one was actually like a 8RR or 9RR, and he took on at least 5 or 6 editors, and then came back and did it again the next day despite Arbiter warnings. Simply claiming BLP is not a license to freely revert, especially if a number of users dispute the BLP claim. Lawrence § t/e 18:02, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

If an editor wants to call something a BLP violation, that doesn't make it true. I think it should be clarified that there is no immunity when other established editors disagree that that the material is a BLP violation. This exception should not reward those who misunderstand the policy. Cool Hand Luke 18:12, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I think there is already an implication with 3RR, that if you are going to revert >3 times/day believing you are covered under an exception, you basically have to be damn sure that the admins are going to come down on your side. It's the risk you take: by reverting >3 times, you are saying, "I am so certain that the community will eventually agree with me that I am willing to bet a 24 hour block against it."

I don't agree with Luke's suggestion, because there could be a circumstance where other established editors were, for whatever reason, mistaken in their judgment, and where a potentially very libelous statement was being reverted. Now, I would think already that just about any good faith editor would seriously check themselves if other established editors were fighting their reverts -- but if after that self-check, the editor in question was still confident that the community will support their revert, so confident that he or she was willing to stake the possibility of a 24hr block on it, I think that editor has every right to exceed 3 reverts/day in the interest of protecting against libel concerns.

The control comes from the fact that if the reverting editor is wrong, i.e. even if he or she honestly thought they were enforcing BLP but the community ultimately sides against them, then that person could find themselves blocked. There is no exemption for "I thought I was doing the right thing" with 3RR. If you >3 revert and it turns out you were mistaken, you may find yourself blocked, good faith or no. THAT'S the control, because it discourages people from >3 reverts unless they are absolutely 100% certain that they are enforcing community consensus. --Jaysweet (talk) 18:26, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

A recent example where I reverted >3 times in defiance of established editors was with Elliot Spitzer's announced resignation. A number of people misunderstood Spitzer's Wednesday press conference as a resignation, as opposed to an announcement of intention to resign on Monday 17th. Easy mistake to make, and it resulted in a lot of inaccurate edits to the infobox and article text. Now, I must have made reversions regarding that fact ten times or more on Wednesday, and many of the editors I reverted were established editors acting in good faith who had simply misunderstood the announcement. But, I was absolutely certain that community consensus would support my actions, and so I continued to revert with no fear of 3RR recriminations. And sure enough, there were none.

It is situations like that why I oppose Luke's suggestion. There are cases where more than one established good faith editor can find themselves making the same exact mistake regarding a BLP, necessitating a revert. And there is no reason why a single editor should not be able to make those reverts, even if it adds up to more than three in a day as long as the reverting editor knows they are risking a block if they have not correctly gauged community consensus. --Jaysweet (talk) 18:37, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

You misunderstand. I said when established editors disagree—I didn't mean when established editos merely revert you. I should be more clear—I mean when established editors explicitly say "I don't see a BLP violation here" as happened in Crum's case. When that occurs, there's not much chance that they're supporting the community consensus, and the reverts should stop. Cool Hand Luke 18:50, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I think there's another issue here also- sometimes we just don't pay as much attention to 3RR when there are general issues. For example, I was one of only a few editors paying attention when the Mark Foley scandal broke and I almost went over 3RR on the main article as well as on Mark Foley Scandal (I may have actually gone over I don't remember and it isn't important). The upshot was that there were serious issues, the Misplaced Pages articles were in the spotlight and changing rapidly and I thought it made sense to IAR a bit. We can generally use our judgement about such situations. Circumstances like the Crum one... well, if multiple arbitrators are telling you to quit it on an Arbitration page you should probably quit it. JoshuaZ (talk) 19:02, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

That of course raises the question of how to determine what the consensus is. How would one go about doing this without discussing the material on a talk page, which would go against the WP:BLP principle of immediate removal of unsourced/poorly-sourced controversial material without prior discussion? Or would doing a single remove-revert cycle followed by discussion be acceptable, as then you did attempt to remove it "immediately"? Also, is it possible that the lack of material in BLP articles may itself be damaging, and therefore BLP also should require adding material under certain circumstances? mike4ty4 (talk) 04:32, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Basically, I think what's going on is that we're inviting the edit-warriors back on to the wiki.

If you're so sure that you are right about some policy and must revert more than once, then surely someone else agrees with you, and will eventually do so (or even beat you to it).

If you end up going over 3 reverts, perhaps the community doesn't agree with your assessment or interpretation of that policy? (be it BLP or any other policy in general)

--Kim Bruning (talk) 00:25, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I think the reasoning is that we really don't want people to think it's okay to not revert some crap because they might be blocked. If something was obviously true and well sourced, the 3RR could be applied, but someone spotting a really damaging and clearly unsourced statement on Misplaced Pages would want to remove it, so this clause allows for that. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 01:11, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, if it is really damaging and unsourced, many people would revert it, not just you. If you're the only one reverting, perhaps you're wrong? ;-) Isn't that how 3RR was supposed to work? --Kim Bruning (talk) 02:07, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes but BLP is a serious enough issue that we can't always wait for other people to show up (I'm one of the people most strongly in favor of using process to resolve BLP penumbra issues but I agree with this notion pretty strongly for traditional BLP concerns). If for example you are reverting an article repeatedly with a new editor who wants to add in completely unsourced accusations of criminal behavior, I don't think many of us would object to 3RR if you can't in the meantime find someone else to look at the matter. This is especially true on more obscure articles. As I said before (and will of course continue to do so) this is a good argument for distinguishing between tradditonal/straight/strict BLP issues and penumbra issues. JoshuaZ (talk) 02:14, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Hehehehe, you SO sound like one of the revertwarriors of yore. :-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 03:17, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I think the point is that it's better to be an edit warrior than to sit around twiddling your thumbs while a page claims that Dame Nellie Plumbtwaddle plotted the assassination of Princess Profusia. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 03:24, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I would also like to set to rest this "penumbra" nonsense. There is little or no penumbra. The occasions when there is doubt that a factual statement about a living person is being made are few. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 03:28, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Er, not what I mean by penumbra. See User:JoshuaZ/Thoughts on BLP. Incidentally, agree with your comment to Kim. JoshuaZ (talk) 03:34, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps there should be an explicit requirement that whenever an editor feels they have to exceed 3RR with someone who they believe is violating BLP, they should also alert the BLP notice board. They can then continue reverting without sanction until additional help arrives, as long as they are acting in good faith.--agr (talk) 03:38, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree that we could add that, or something about how it's wise to contact an administrator if you find yourself going over 3RR. SlimVirgin 03:42, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I've added these words (new words are after the first clause). This should cover it without adding an actual restriction:

"The three-revert rule does not apply to such removals, though editors are advised to seek help from an administrator or at the BLP noticeboard if they find themselves violating 3RR, rather than dealing with the situation alone."

SlimVirgin 03:48, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I like that wording. The situations where the types of revert wars that happened with Crum are rare enough, aren't they, where BLP is invoked? As long as the community does issue 3RR blocks for bogus or heavily disputed situations if one person persists, that would be perfect wording. Lawrence § t/e 04:42, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I like it as well. It advises editors to seek the input of others (an informal request for an outside opinion is a good idea in any revert war, especially when 3RR is approached or breached) yet preserves the 3RR exception for BLPs. Black Falcon 16:41, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Also agree. JoshuaZ (talk) 18:15, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Add me to the support list for this addition. Going it alone usually leads to more problems, which ultimately makes resolving issues more difficult. R. Baley (talk) 18:41, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Harrumph. I still have this sneaking suspicion that y'all just want to put on some armor, and get knee-deep in wikidrama, precisely what the 3rr was supposed to prevent.:-P

But ... this is a good start, at least. :-)

--Kim Bruning (talk) 23:33, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

On the one hand, the risk of "moar wikidramas." On the other, the risk of having legally actionable libel on the encyclopedia for one millisecond longer than necessary. I'll take the "moar wikidramas" any day. FCYTravis (talk) 05:53, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

• I don't see any reason for it to be exempt from 3RR at all - if someone is reinserting obviously questionable material with that much persistence it should be taken to ANI or similar anyway. All that making it exempt will do is encourage edit wars and drama. -- Naerii · plz create stuff 11:30, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Agreed. I see any exceptions to 3RR as just asking for trouble; these exceptions have few actual situations where they're genuinely needed, but numerous opportunities to be gamed and used as bludgeons by warriors. If you're fighting against one person inserting questionable items, they'll probably end up violating 3RR themselves. If there are a bunch of people protecting the content you object to, then maybe they're right and you're wrong. If you're still right and facing a bunch of people, you can go to AN/I or other such places for help. If somehow you can't get any help but everybody ultimately agrees you're right anyway, then you can probably get away with WP:IAR. Exactly when is an explicit exemption necessary and desirable? *Dan T.* (talk) 12:01, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

One Event

Discussion here appears to have fizzled out. The history of WP:BLP1E's place here in policy has been contentious from the start. I shall put another merge tag on the section, and if there are no notable objections, remove the section from here, rediverting the shortcuts to WP:BIO1E. It's not a question of deleting the advice, just a question of putting the advice in the right place and the most appropriate context. SilkTork * 15:19, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I support this merger! --Kevin Murray (talk) 23:23, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Tentative concerns, I think, from me... at least till more discussed. BLP1E is often quite important for living people who are tangential to an event, or (by definition) only notable for one thing. In such cases there's probably quite a strong presumption that the event is more relevant than the person and in many of these cases we shouldnt have an article on the person. Putting that in WP:N might dilute it, I fear. BLP is a strong policy, and will carry a lot of weight in removing biographical articles that we should merge into the event, or redirect to the main topic. I'm concerned that the same text in WP:N wouldn't carry that weight, leading to us keeping bio articles that we usually would merge or redirect. Would it have the same weight as (say) WP:N1E? If it would then I'd be happier. Also, is it better viewed as an aspect of notability (WP:N), or of privacy (WP:BLP)? FT2  03:19, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure I follow your concerns. Your comments appear to me to read like a discussion on notability, which would fall under the notability guideline. It is right and proper that people should on a case by case basis be discussing if an individual who is known for only one event be considered notable enough for a standalone article. I'm not sure why we would need to have a policy on this. A guideline, yes, to give people the benefit of feedback from previous discussions, and why one person was considered notable for one event while another wasn't, but a policy? A policy saying what? "Cover the event, not the person"? - which sounds like there isn't room for discussion on why some single event individuals are considerable notable. But there is room, and there are a good number of articles on single event individuals. SilkTork * 18:52, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

BLP Deletions and DRV - spawned from Don Murphy mess

Please review this deletion log. So, if any admin deletes any BLP article and invokes BLP as the reason, it must go through DRV, even if the person is clearly notable? I'd like to just understand this. If that is the case, and I deleted Jamie Lee Curtis, Thomas Ian Nicholas, or Mary Donohue, to pick some random BLPs, and someone undeleted them, the undeleter would be sanctioned? Lawrence § t/e 16:00, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

DRV is certainly the place for it, and especially in this case that is not exactly a random BLP case, I would suggest arbcom or an rfc would be the course of action if sanctions were to be applied against someone restoring a speedied BLP article without recourse to DRV first. Thanks, SqueakBox 16:08, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

And the notability of a subject takes no role in this? An admin can delete Barack Obama, cite BLP, and tie everyone's hands into DRV? I know this is an extreme example, but this idea seems to be a very good intention that leaves a possible loophole. Shouldn't the deleter have to cite why under BLP? Lawrence § t/e 16:11, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

It does seem that an admin may delete any biography citing BLP and require review to occur at DRV. From the Badlydrawnjeff ArbCom decision:

Summary deletion of BLPs

4) Any administrator, acting on their own judgment, may delete an article that is substantially a biography of a living person if they believe that it (and every previous version of it) significantly violates any aspect of the relevant policy. This deletion may be contested via the usual means; however, the article must not be restored, whether through undeletion or otherwise, without an actual consensus to do so. The burden of proof is on those who wish to retain the article to demonstrate that it is compliant with every aspect of the policy.

Notability is not an element of the principle it would seem. ArbCom can of course be asked to review and clarify its past decisions. WjBscribe 16:16, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

You have a good point about Obama, Lawrence, and this, I think, is at the heart of the BLP problem, some would argue if you remove the Obama article that makes it likely you are a Clinton supporter trying to influence the election, and that is clearly wrong. Thanks, SqueakBox 16:19, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

The idea that any admin can unilaterally delete should be rejected by the community. And in cases like the current one, where the last input by the community on the question was (afaik) a clear consensus keep as established by a proper AfD nom, it is the admin who disregards the clear community opinion who should be worried about his/her bit. The route to deletion should be through AfD. R. Baley (talk) 17:04, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I think the article should be deleted, but I agree that this policy needs more fleshing out—it's way too subjective and prone to cause drama. That said, we would want to put our thumb on the scale of favoring BLP deletion.

Perhaps we would say that BLP admin deletions can occur if and only if the admin believes that the majority of the community would favor deletion after the fact, and that frivolous deletions might be sanctionable. I think this makes more sense because we're really (in my opinion) talking about IAR deletions. Cool Hand Luke 17:09, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

In general we expect admins to exercise good judgement in using their powers. I don't think it's necessary to add a qualifier every place authority is granted to admins. In this particular case, we can survive nicely without the article in question until DRV is completed. If an admin deleted the Obama article, I suspect it would be restored and we would have one less admin, both rather quickly, using IAR if necessary. --agr (talk) 17:23, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Good point. IAR and common sense work in both directions, but I still think these cases should be rare. Cool Hand Luke 17:55, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

In the current case, I can't believe there was a real expectation that even a majority would have agreed with deletion (given the 2 AfD's; just saw the 2nd one, a little over 2 months after the first one in June of 2007). And even in the current DRV (AfD?) a lot of the delete !votes are made on the basis of "tired of this issue -make it go away," do editors consider this a valid basis/argument for deletion? R. Baley (talk) 17:33, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I do tend to agree that this kind of preemptive deletion should not happen, yes. The policy should be rewritten to discourage this kind of thing. That said, BLP headaches are (in my view) a legitimate reason to delete. Cool Hand Luke 17:55, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

We asked about this at about the time of the Badlydrawnjeff arbitration. The feeling seemed to be that nobody was about to delete, say, Barack Obama but if they did it would be restored quickly (Ignore all rules). If on the other hand a more obscure article goes, what's the hurry? Getting it right under the policy takes precedence. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 18:46, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Getting it right under the policy takes precedence? Tony, you've become a bureaucrat! --Kim Bruning (talk) 19:01, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Don't think so. It's implied by ignore all rules, too, but I sometimes speak bureaucratese (inexpertly). --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 19:08, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Of course, we do seem to be missing something in the ArbCom decision quoted by WJB above:

Any administrator, acting on their own judgment, may delete an article that is substantially a biography of a living person if they believe that it (and every previous version of it) significantly violates any aspect of the relevant policy.

The words I would point to are "and every previous version of it." In all the examples given above, from Barack Obama to Jamie Lee Curtis, there will be an "uncontroversial" version which can be restored over that which has caused a particular admin concern. The Don Murphy article was no different, and so a DRV should not have been necessary, as it wouldn't be with either Obama or Curtis. The loophole as described will in fact only ever be exploitable on new pages. Steve 12:09, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

• Endorse marking this section as disputed. It has caused great concern, encouraging as it does a mindset of radical deletion contrary to the spirit of BLP (seek a high quality article if possible, rather than automatically click "delete" if there is a perceived issue), culminating in this (the Don Murphy) case. See below. FT2  12:58, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Proposed rewrite of disputed section

I have had a go at rewriting this section to clarify it. My approach was as follows:

1. Provide a general principle that we rectify flaws in articles where possible, rather than delete them. This is a long-standing principle on the wiki, if there is a problem with an article (or page) try first of all to fix it. For BLP the priority is fix/remedy it; if that can't be done then delete the offending material and discuss the issue eg on the talk page, and if that can't be readily/easily done then delete the entire page.
2. I have separated the "deletion" section into three parts - AFD deletion, summary deletion, and the policy on deleted material (eg don't restore it to other articles, burden of proof for undeleting, etc). This seemed far more useful than "deletion" vs "disputed deletion".
3. I took the view that for cases where the suitability of the article was in doubt, AFD is the usual route. That would cover questions like notability or WP:NOT. Summary deletion by any admin is then more for cases where the issue is more that the material is negative, unsourced or poorly sourced, non-neutral etc, and cannot readily be fixed and the admin feels its simpler to delete than fix, which seems the actual intent of things.
4. I don't think I've changed much else.

This preserves the important default that offending material unable to be easily rectified should be removed, and deleted material should not be restored until policy compliance (especially sourcing, npov etc) is achieved, with burden of proof on the restorer to show this. (Note this is moved to the subsection 'After deletion') But it clarifies that if the material is readily fixable, it's still preferable in wiki terms to try and fix it, which was missing.

I also noted under "protection" that (as with all protection) allowing editing is desirable. Maybe this can be worded better; the point is as usual if its 1 or 2 editors that are a problem one should address the alleged BLP-breaching editors rather than protect a page long term. (Same as for most edit wars). Page protection is then more a transient step in doing so. If this can be better worded then please do so.

I don't know if it's perfect but I think it's an improvement.

diff

FT2  12:58, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I like these changes. This should squash confusion in the future. Well written, as usual, FT2. Well organized, covers all bases. Good job. Lara❤Love 13:33, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

In my opinion, the last sentence is the most important, and needs to be moved to the top of the new "BLP deletion standards" as an overarching principle. i.e. this:

Further, the burden of proof is on those who wish to retain or undelete the article to demonstrate that it is policy-compliant, written neutrally to a high standard, and based on good quality reliable sources.

..should be moved to the top and revised along the lines of:

In order to ensure that biographical material of living people is always policy-compliant, written neutrally to a high standard, and based on good quality reliable sources, the burden of proof is on those who wish to retain or undelete an article.

Alternatively, if it is kept at the bottom, it could be promoted to a sub-section (for easy linking) and expanded a little. John Vandenberg (talk) 13:35, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Following discussion, one further edit:

1. The restoration of deleted content now has its own more visible subsection. I have tentatively added the following wording:

   If the material is to be restored without significant change, then consensus must be obtained first, and wherever possible, disputed deletions should be discussed with the administrator who deleted the article. If the material is proposed to be significantly repaired or rewritten to address the concerns, then it may need discussion or may be added to the article; this should be considered case-by-case. In any event if the matter becomes disputed it should not be added back without discussion and consensus-seeking.
   This aims to fix the problem that someone who sees a paragraph deleted for BLP reasons and decides to fix it otherwise couldnt do so without asking the deleting user, whatever the "required fix" might be, including a rewrite! But (anti-gaming measure) if a rewrite is disputed or its a disputed deletion where the user proposes to restore without change, it should be discussed first.

2. Added the issue John was mostly thinking of, that at AFD there is a presumption of deletion if no consensus to keep is found, which is different than normal.

diff

FT2  14:07, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. The added clarity is good. John Vandenberg (talk) 14:23, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I too think this new version by FT2 is much better. The old version was a bit patronizing, basically just saying "undeletion = bad," with no room for questioning. I like that the new version explains the complicated issues involved, as well as stressing the need for good administrative judgment on a case-by-case basis. krimpet✽ 14:33, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I like the changes as well, but I'm not sure about this last addition (the AFD paragraph). This looks like a major policy change to me that might require more discussion. All biography articles (only those about living persons, I assume) should be deleted when there's no consensus in an AFD? Even those where BLP problems don't play a role at all? Why? I've had a look at some recent AFDs, and with this new rule, Jael Strauss, Darren M Jackson, Alycia Lane, Irene Hirano and Michelle Morgan would have been deleted. Two of those articles (Michelle Morgan and Alycia Lane) might have BLP problems, but the other three seem to be perfectonly reasonable articles to me (at least when it comes to WP:BIO). What would we gain from deleting them? --Conti|✉ 15:27, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Would any of these work better, Conti?

1. "Note that for a deletion discussion of a biographical article, the traditional AFD standard is reversed -- a closing decision of 'no consensus' is taken as delete and not keep."
2. "Note that for a deletion discussion of a biographical article on BLP grounds, the traditional AFD standard is reversed -- a closing decision of 'no consensus' is taken as delete and not keep."
3. "Note that for a deletion discussion of a biographical article where BLP is a concern, the traditional AFD standard may be reversed -- a closing decision of 'no consensus' may be taken as delete and not keep."

May need discussing but for now I've tentatively edited in (2) as likely to be non-contentious (if the deletion isn't on BLP grounds then unlikely to need BLP-related special handling for no consensus).

For what it's worth my own preference is to replace "is" by "may be", per (3), to allow admin discretion in tricky AFDs (as with subject requests for deletion), but I'm unsure how others feel. FT2  17:06, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification, FT2. My preference would be (3) as well, but I'm fine with the current change. --Conti|✉ 17:22, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I have reverted the change. The question of reversing deletion standards for BLPs received a lengthy and heated discussion some months ago, and there was no consensus for its implementation. Is there any evidence that consensus has changed? Black Falcon 17:42, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, couldn't we work the two paragraphs in the AFD based deletion section into one? Something like "If BLP reasons are cited (or "are a major concern", maybe?) in an AFD about a living person, the closing admin may delete the article even if the result is 'no consensus'". I'm not very good at wording these things, but I hope the meaning is clear. :) Maybe it should be mentioned that a no consensus deletion should have a closing rationale (apart from "Result: No consensus, article deleted"), too. --Conti|✉ 17:39, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Unsure; it's not a million miles out so maybe see what others think too. FT2  17:43, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

While I don't think it is a good idea to give consideration to the subjects wishes due to conflict of interest and NPOV, I do find the new wording better than the previous. It is made clear that the closing admin should use their discretion when deciding how much weight to give the subject's wishes, I just hope they remember NPOV when the use that discretion. _(1 == 2) 17:29, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

(Point of fact, that discretion was in the original version too; it's left unchanged.) FT2  17:43, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Nice rewrite to the section but would definitly support having the 3rd option with 'may be' as the wording for BLP related AFDs as the wording which was what I think we currently have as the practice, rather than a quite sweeping no consensus means deletion on all bios. Davewild (talk) 23:01, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I would go with option (2), as option (3) leaves too much room for problematic wikilawyering, especially at putative DRVs - if previous experience is anything to go by. Otherwise this is a very good rewrite.Black Kite 00:44, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I think the rewrite of the page makes a good job of clarifying the policy and certainly represents an improvement. My personal opinion would be to favour the third of the above options. While I would tend to agree that option two might reduce wikilawyering over individual AfDs, I think it would be probably be too heavy handed not to leave an element of discretion in whether it ended up deleted or not in the instance of a lack of consensus. Will (aka Wimt) 01:55, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough to this whole thread, but based on some of Viridae's comments on his talk page, his motive for deletion was notability. BLP was the pretext only. The issue is whether or not an admin can delete based on his own personal assessment of notability. This wasn't exactly speedy-delete material, I think we can all agree. The AfD process should be respected unless the BLP issues are overwhelming enough to make an article unkeepable in any of its known diffs. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 03:57, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

An admin can delete unilaterally based on notability, but it is a near certainty that DRV will call that an incorrect use of admin tools. There really is no legitimate recourse for admins to unilaterally decide something is not notable and then go and delete it, especially after there is a clear consensus to the contrary. _(1 == 2) 14:58, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

The problem we are dealing with in cases like the Murphy deletion and others are that people have deleted people who they agree are notable citing BLP. And then we get retroactive claims that the person isn't actually notable (like we got here and like what we got with Brandt). Essentially, this comes down to the strict BLP v. BLP penumbra issue as discussed at User:JoshuaZ/Thoughts on BLP. What we should do is just make it so that BLP-penumbra issues require AfDs. And claims of deletion based on notability of people who have already gone through AfD? That's ridiculous and shouldn't bother requiring a DRV to overturn. JoshuaZ (talk) 04:23, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I have edited the "Summary deletion" section to match the introduction of the BLP policy, which states: "Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons ... should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion, from Misplaced Pages articles, talk pages, user pages, and project space." Black Falcon 04:10, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Saw that, and concur. Also yes you were right.. unspotted edit summary. Thanks :) FT2  07:19, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Suggest a brainstorm subpage

The dead trees standard interpretation I proposed for courtesy BLP deletions worked pretty well last summer but obviously goes farther than the community is comfortable with. Trouble is, no one has proposed a well defined standard to take its place. So let's set up a brainstorming locale where we can set up something clear and consistent to short circuit these periodic wikidramas over BLP deletion requests. Durova 19:30, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, If people actually read User:JoshuaZ/Thoughts on BLP like I recommend (hint I'm recommending it not just out of egotistical self-promotion) they would see a section where I list at least two other possible standards, willing public figure (which I favor) and NOB (no original online biography standard). The second standard is that standard that is favored by WAS however, depending on how one interprets it one gets very different results (what constitutes a biography enough is highly open to debate). I believe that the standard of willing public figure is an easy test that would lead to the most sensible result. JoshuaZ (talk) 20:20, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Undue weight question

Is it a contradiction or dichotomy in our policies that the "undue weight" principle is often used to remove information from a BLP that is othewise properly cited from a reliable source, and the fact that if the information was presented in an article about the event that the person was involved in, then all of the information could be included? For example, the Michael Brown Okinawa assault incident is basically about a single event that Michael Brown was the central figure in. If Brown was the subject of a BLP, however, undue weight would probably limit the amount of information on the assault incident that could be included in Brown's BLP article. If so, does that mean the way around the "undue weight" rule is simply to write an article about the single event or issue in question? Cla68 (talk) 03:37, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Unfamiliar with the case but I'll have a go at a guess at an answer from what it sounds like.

If the article is the person, then the subject is the person, so it'll be some bio information, info on things that are relvant to their bio, and so on (however much or little). The focus though is them as a bio-subject, and the incident is only part of that. But if it's an 'incident' article, then the articles topic is the incident, and the person is only part of it. It changes which is primary focus, which is secondary.

So both will cover the incident and person to an extent, but the bio article will add to it by covering more of the person (youth, school, work, etc) and not so much extra detail on the incident... whereas the incident article will add to it by covering more of the prior background to the incident, maybe its cultural or social context more, the others in it, the impact, the aftermath etc, and not so much extra detail on the specific person.

Any help? Thats my feeling... FT2  06:50, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I think I understand the difference. Cla68 (talk) 07:23, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Discussion and proposals on protecting biographies.

SirFozzie has written a few proposals here that involve protecting biographies of living people upon request. I've also written a different set of criteria for article protection here. It'd be great if we could get some more input about this from a wider range of people... please take a look if you have time. Please comment there to keep things centralised. Thanks! -- Naerii 04:00, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

BLP flowchart

I thought a flowchart would be helpful here (as at BRD, CONSENSUS etc).

Image:BLP flowchart.svg

Thoughts whether this would work as a general approach?

FT2  06:07, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I think that is excellent. Incredibly unambiguous, easy to follow and easy to implement. Yep - Alison 06:28, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Very logical, and I think it will be very useful. One question, though: from the flowchart, it looks as though deletions of a sentence or paragraph for BLP purposes are to be contested at DRV. I'm not sure DRV is really set up to address such partial deletions. More to the point, it's likely that the material may be reinserted weeks or months after the fact by a different editor who has no knowledge of the prior deletion of a section of material; how will future editors know that a partial deletion has been done? Risker (talk) 06:33, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Make it SVG, and we got a deal forsure. :-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 07:20, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Risker - it needs fine tuning to the wording, the important words are in the policy of course... the title of that box says "Recreation forbidden unless the offending material is remedied or consensus agrees", so the text under it needs a couple more "for instances". And Kim, MZMcBride already said he'd SVG it tomorrow :) FT2  07:24, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

<3 --Kim Bruning (talk) 07:32, 22 March 2008 (UTC) in SVG, text is actually text, so it's trivially easy to adjust wording. I just wish the wiki could support it natively :-)

Done. FT2  14:30, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I like this somewhat. It is a lot more sensible than what we have now, however the wording that says "in most cases" take to AfD bothers me. Why should we leave a vague exception? Just say take to AfD. Otherwise this won't in practice change anything. JoshuaZ (talk) 15:54, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

The BLP standard is "Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons — whether the material is negative, positive, or just questionable". The flowchart misrepresents this. It is very important for NPOV that we not bias claims about living persons in favor of the subject of the article. Seemingly positive things about the subject can be negative claims about other living people, for example. Further some seemingly positive things can be viewed as negative by the person themselves (different people have different views about being called a "liberal" or a "fundamentalist Christian" for example. WAS 4.250 (talk) 20:48, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

That's a very good point. JoshuaZ (talk) 21:23, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

1885 cutoff

Category:Disappeared people says "For any individual born before 1885 whose year of death remains undetermined, please change this category to Category:Year of death unknown." Category:Possibly living people says "For any individual born before 1886 whose year of death remains undetermined, please change this category to Category:Year of death missing." In both cases the See also section links to Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons with the note "presume person still alive if born after 1885". However, I come here and the page says no such thing. I understand it makes sense to apply BLP to Steve Fossett and Natalee Holloway and even Judge Crater since it's vaguely possible one of them could show up still breathing, but where is this rule codified?  Randall Bart   Talk  03:32, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

The cutoff is 1885 because no one has ever lived longer than 122 years. (FWIW, the one person proven to have lived so long was Jeanne Calment.) So if someone was born more than 122 years ago, it's 100% certain he or she is dead. While it's extremely unlikely a disappeared or possibly living person has lived that long, this is still a useful cutoff point because it's the boundary between assuming a person is dead and knowing it. szyslak (t) 04:03, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Too little information?

Hi.

Is it possible for a BLP to be damaging if it has too little information in it? What I had in mind was what if one were to just remove every unsourced statement in a BLP without bothering to check for sources or level of controversy surrounding each claim? mike4ty4 (talk) 20:12, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it would, if the removal of information would lead to a violation of WP:NPOV. Suppose a 10K article has a bunch of unsourced information about the subject's accomplishments, and a single sourced sentence about the time they were charged with possession. If you deleted all the unsourced stuff, that would be giving the possession charge extraordinarily undue weight. Best thing to do in that case is to source some of the other stuff. If that's not possible, and the other stuff is in any way contentious, then you should stubify it. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 23:02, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Photographs of living people

Should this policy include a section on photographs of living people? Merle Terlesky requested that his photo be removed (the photo was released under the GFDL, so there were no copyright issues) on the basis that it posed a threat to his safety, and I confess to having had no idea of how to handle it. It has since been removed following an OTRS request, but I think policy would be useful on this front. Note that I have no proposals as to what that policy should look like. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 22:49, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I think that specific example is not a reasonable request as his image is already publicly available, including on his own web site. I do however agree that in cases where a persons appearance is not known to the public that in some cases could be an unacceptable release of personal information. For example if someone interupted a sporting event and caused a game to change outcome and the persons face was not known, it would be a really irresponsibilt to publish it, and a bit of original research. _(1 == 2) 22:52, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree completely that absolutely no threat was posed to his safety by the image. I just would have found it useful to have some policy as to who makes that determination, on what basis they make it, and whether the picture stays up or goes down in the meantime. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 22:56, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Indeed if he publishes self-photos on his own web site, it is frivolous to ask us to omit free photos of him based on privacy concerns. If he has a photo which he'd rather have us use, he only needs to release it under an appropriate free license. — CharlotteWebb 02:10, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm wary of codifying too much. To an extent, its best we let the few cases where there really is contention be solved case-by-case. FT2  06:04, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Daniel Brandt (redirect only) on DRV

See Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2008 March 24. We don't have a policy regarding redirects, or anything close to this, so I suspect that this discussion is definitely relevant to WP:BLP (as it will probably result in something being formed). -- Ned Scott 06:51, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Help regarding Mark Wills

Recently, Swelchmgt (talk · contribs) has been removing Mark Wills' birth name from his article, stating in the edit summary that he (Wills) wishes to have his birth name removed "for the privacy and security of his family". Note, however, that his full name is clearly identified in his All Music Guide biography (and possibly other sources too). The "mgt" part of this user's name has me believing that the user in question is possibly Wills' manager. Having never dealt with BLP issues like this before, I would like to know what should be done. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • 22:48, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Need to clarify on WP:RS blog entries about BLP

I don't know if this has been discussed before but it is causing problems in an article (and could be issue in a couple others I can think of). It needs to be re-written for clarification. Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons#Reliable_sources reads: Self-published books, zines, websites, and blogs should never be used as a source for material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the article (see below).

However, if blogs published by WP:RS (whether or not the person is edited) can be used to convey possibly libelous material, this section should say so explicitly. Similarly, for when the blog entry itself becomes news carried by mainstream sources. Carol Moore 15:48, 29 March 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}

Given no response, I'll just change the article text per below and if people don't like it, maybe then we can discuss. :-)

"Because mainstream reliable source blogs may or may not be edited, only those which the Misplaced Pages editor can prove are approved by a reliable source editor will not be considered self-published." Carol Moore 23:32, 31 March 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}

I don't know what this means. Among other things, what is a "reliable source editor"? I'm removing the line. 2005 (talk) 00:56, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

you wrote in edit summary: "no need to repeat in different words what the external links guideline says, and has said for literally years." It would help if you provided the relevant link(s). There is a whole discussion on this in one mediation where even the mediator hasn't been able to explain the policy on whether mainstream blogs can be used as RS in BLP. People seem to think yes, if the blog is edited by one of the sources editors, but not sure. Even if this is somewhere else, shouldn't it be here?? Carol Moore 02:29, 1 April 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}

That line was refering to the other edit. The first thing you need to seek is clarification from WP:V about non-self-published blogs, then come back here as WP:V trumps this since if they don't allow it in general, then obviously they are not approriate for BLPs since this policy is a restriction on general policies. If WP:V does allow them, then this policy doesn't comment on them, so they would be allowed. If WP:V doesn't allow them, then a comment disallowing them here would be approriate if there is a consensus for one. 2005 (talk) 04:46, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually I did that before coming back here and found this. Should this footnote be here too? Or some other variation for BLP?

Misplaced Pages:Verifiability#cite_note-4

"Blogs" in this context refers to personal and group blogs. Some newspapers host interactive columns that they call blogs, and these may be acceptable as sources so long as the writers are professionals and the blog is subject to the newspaper's full editorial control. Where a news organization publishes the opinions of a professional but claims no responsibility for the opinions, the writer of the cited piece should be attributed (e.g. "Jane Smith has suggested..."). Posts left by readers may never be used as sources.

Carol Moore 00:36, 2 April 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}

Help regarding Major Alan G. Rogers

Could someone with experience in controversial biography articles please come over to the Major Alan G. Rogers and help with that article. Thanks, Remember (talk) 20:15, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I've just completed a major overhaul. Comments, suggestions, additions, deletions or corrections are welcome.--Robapalooza (talk) 07:03, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Problem with this policy

QUOTING the policy:

"Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons — whether the material is negative, positive, or just questionable — should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion, from Misplaced Pages articles, talk pages, user pages, and project space."

Suppose I come to an article which has zero sources. I should immediately delete the unsourced contentious material. I can leave in the unsourced but uncontentious parts.

The problem is, how do I know which is which?

For example, if there is a statement that "John Smith has a restaurant in Topeka, Kansas and is an excellent chef." The statement doesn't sound contentious to me, but maybe half the good folk of Topeka have become ill from eating at the restaurant. If so, it is a very contentious statement.

Wanderer57 (talk) 05:28, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, there's no good answer, because the wording here has became very poor. It should say "unsourced negative material must be removed in all places". Whether something is "contentious" isn't relevant in such cases. If an aricle says "John Smith has a restaurant in Topeka, Kansas where many people were poisoned", it should be promptly removed if not well sourced even if we personally know its true (say you got poisoned yourself). Also, little harm is done by having contentious material left on talk pages, if it's neutral or positive (as long as it's not promotional). --Rob (talk) 23:20, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Nonsense. All long standing versions refer to contentious or the equivalent. NPOV requires that we don't leave positive claims that are questionable any more than negative ones that are questionable. And immediate removal of questionable claims is only for cases where the potential harm is significant (libel, BLP, medical advice, etc) since this a a collaborative amateur effort and eventualism is part of our process. WAS 4.250 (talk) 23:56, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

To say a restaurant poisoned someone is obviously a contentious statement. A true statement can also be a contentious one. Ty 00:20, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

True, but the context is "Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material". The contentiousness or questionableness being referred to is about whether or not the claim in question is adequately sourced to reliable published sources or not. If it is so sourced, then being contentious or questioned on other grounds is not relevant to this section of policy. Context determines meaning. WAS 4.250 (talk) 00:41, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

To make it clear, I was agreeing with you and replying to the statement preceding yours. Ty 00:46, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you all for the feedback. WAS 4.250's answer sounds very authoritative. However, it doesn't answer my question of how to know if a particular statement is controversial.

I offered the example of a hypothetical John Smith with a restaurant in Topeka. The issue is much more serious than that one example might suggest. A statement that sounds harmless and uncontroversial to me or another editor may be a sparkplug for controversy in some community or some dispute in which the subject is involved. Wanderer57 (talk) 00:37, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

We used editorial judgement to get it right to the best of our abilities. Ty 00:47, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

This is a real world problem that can not be solved with a few words in a policy. It takes research and thoughtfulness. On the one hand we don't want to delete every minor claim in every BLP just because that specific claim does not have an in-line citation after it. Nor do we wish to allow "Jon was arrested for murder" based on a claim that it says so somewhere in a book that is out of print and not available in a local library. We need to research the subject of articles, get a feel for what sources are reliable for what claims and make adult thoughtful careful editorial choices. This can not be done by following a rote by the numbers approach. For example, there may be a claim in an article that someone has a dog, but he is in a court case that rests on his claim that he does not have a dog. We can not evaluate which claims are questionable outside the context of a specific case and research into that case. We had someone who knew nothing about professional athletes removing well known facts about professional athletes just because there was no in-line cite following those claims. That is exactly wrong. But if you are well read on a subject, a gut feel that some claim seems wrong and a quick google uncovers no evidence for the claim, then deleting it or moving it to talk is probably correct. WAS 4.250 (talk) 00:57, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

"unsourced negative material must be removed in all places" is definitle not the point. Saying Charles Manson is the head of the Manson family is negative, but would be absurd to remove. The point is contentious. The restaurant example misses the point. If any editor questions a negative statement, THAT is contentious. Contentious means between editors, not conflict in society. negative statements that any edotor disputes should be removed. Thus is some contends that Manson wasn't actually the leader of the Manson family, they could force other editors to cite the statement. Negative (or overly positive) statements should be removed, but single sentence in the Manson article can be wildly negative, even if not cited. So basically, if any editor thinks a statement is negative or overly positive, then it becomes contentious and should be removed immediately, with a BLP note, which means an editor can try and well source the statement and re-add it. 2005 (talk) 00:49, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

To step back a moment, this is about uncited or unbalanced statements in articles. Now... in all cases and all articles really, if editors genuinely disagree whether a statement is contentious or balanced, then careful citation, evidence and discussion will always be appropriate. That's in all cases anywhere, in theory. We already have that about all articles anyway. So BLP is adding to that, because that much of an approach would already be in our article policies for any article even if we didn't have a BLP policy.

What BLP adds or is trying to add (I think), is that if the effect of the statement is plausibly harmful to a living person, then we don't force that person to wait upon our ages-long deliberations for its removal. We remove it first whilst we deliberate. That removal can be by fixing it, redacting it, or deleting it etc, it doesn't matter in BLP terms, The point is, we don't let harmful dubious material endure while we take 3 days or 6 months to consider it, and that's the case indifferent to why it might be dubious, and whether that's due to sourcing, or "weight", or balance, or whatever.

To me this suggests two principles:

1. First, that provided it is fixed in the meantime, BLP's demands will be met. "How" is irrelevant to BLP. The usual norms in every case of error or doubt are that we improve it if we can. So in these cases an editor should strive ideally to repair the contentious and harmful material by fixing or editing it; otherwise they should summarily remove it. Then at leisure we can discuss if anyone else feels it is valid, balanced and sourced, and so on.
2. Second, that positive and negative material may indeed have a rationale for being treated differently. Whilst both are problematic for an encyclopedia, positive questionable material is not usually harmful in the way that negative questionable material is. We have less demand to "remove it now" to prevent harm to the subject whilst we deliberate in such cases. If an editor feels it should be removed that's a usual editorial decision; if none feel it's that problematic, and as a result it were to be left while we discuss, that's much more likely to avoid harm for positive material, than for negative material which may actually do harm during the time taken for a discussion process. We still need to fix it, and NPOV still matters, but the necessity and imperative to "remove now and discuss later", is simply not present with positive questionable material. Although it can be deleted, as with any doubtful content, it would often be much safer in those cases where users did happen to feel it should be left while discussing.

FT2  07:30, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

"the law in Florida USA"

I see that some changes are being made with respect to this. Please be aware that applicable legislation varies from state to state, and thus it is necessary to specify which state's law applies. Incidentally, it should probably be verified with the Foundation whether the Foundation is going to become a "California" organization or remain a "Florida" one. It's possible that either state may have jurisdiction, anyway - the WMF is in California, but the servers are in Florida. Risker (talk) 07:55, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Asked Mike, and changed wording to "must adhere strictly to applicable laws in the United States and to our content policies" which is less state-specific. Its complex, and we really can't give legal advice in that kind of detail. FT2  07:45, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Tag

Ned, please don't keep adding disputed tags to policies. Discuss here if you disagree, please. SlimVirgin 16:29, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

This section was disputed very recently and may legitimately still be. In this case I am inclined to concur with Ned, and leave the tag in a while, to alert others that despite lack of further dissent since previous work, the section may still in fact be open to discussion and consensus. (Ie, if it really isn't disputed any more, time will tell.) FT2  18:00, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

There are always parts of policy pages that are disputed, but we can't go around tagging them all, or they'd be full of tags. And I think Ned will always dispute it. SlimVirgin 18:13, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Considering recent events around Don Murphy and even Daniel Brandt, the level of dispute for parts of the section are enough to completely remove those parts right now. Consider yourself lucky that all we're asking for is a tag. -- Ned Scott 02:15, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't follow deletion debates often, so I'm not aware of the disputes. Can you say exactly which part of it you disagree with, and what wording you'd like to see replace it?

We really can't just tag policies, or parts thereof, that we disagree with. There's plenty of policy I don't like myself, but it'd be wrong to turn up there and slap a tag on it. These things have to be worked out on talk pages, even if it takes a long time. SlimVirgin 18:12, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Two sentences

I've reverted an edit the second time, as follows, because having looked again I cannot see how this edit can help the page. It covers four changes:

• "A blog or personal website self-published by the subject may be listed in the external links/further reading section if not used as a source in the article."

This is about reliable sources, not BLP. The section it's in is titled "reliable sources"; the sentence before it I've linked to Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources. We don't need WP:BLP to actually cover the detail of WP:RS at this point; it's enough simply to link to it. We're explained it in detail. No obvious benefit.

• "When in doubt, biographies should be pared back to a version that is sourced, neutral, and on-topic"

As explained in previous edit summary, this is valid text - except it is already in the article with identical wording no less than three times already(!), including barely a couple of sentences previously in the section header:

== Preventing BLP violations == ...When in doubt, biographies should be pared back to a version that is sourced to good quality sources, neutral, and on-topic. Administrative tools such as page protection and deletion may also at times be necessary. === Semi-protection and protection === Administrators who suspect malicious or biased editing, or who have reason to believe that violating material may be re-added, may protect or semi-protect the page after removing the disputed material. It is generally more desirable in the medium and long term to obtain compliance with this policy by editors, in order that the article may be kept open for editing wherever possible. When in doubt, biographies should be pared back to a version that is sourced, neutral, and on-topic.

1/ Pointless repetition, 2/ relevant to "preventing violations" as a whole, not specifically "protection".

• Removal of "disputed" tag

if a user sees this as disputed, then I won't disagree. It was clearly disputed and it may well be that it is not yet 100% agreed. leave tag in place a while.

• Replacement of advice with mandatory email

I suspect this was "also included" rather than actually intended. The sentence as it would be written, states "if in doubt use email". Better advice is to explain what to avoid (the problem) " unbiased consultation is still important, but one should take care not to publish effectively the same information in seeking advice", and to "consider" alternative means of which email might be just one.

For the above reasons I have reverted this edit as a reduction in wording quality. FT2  17:58, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

FT2, these sentences have been in the policy for some time. If someone objects to a policy addition or removal, you shouldn't really revert back. It needs to be discussed on talk instead.

The sentence, "A blog or personal website self-published by the subject may be listed in the external links/further reading section if not used as a source in the article," is there because it's something that's disputed a lot and leads to lots of revert wars, with people saying no, it can't be added because it's self-published. Therefore, this was added to clarify.

I wasn't aware that the other sentence was already there. Perhaps it should be moved instead. I'll take another look. SlimVirgin 18:17, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I see now it's there twice already. My apologies for adding it a third time. SlimVirgin 18:46, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

The blog sentence is an obvious content fork. Official sites are allowed by the external links guideline. It is bad to be redundant in different wording. All that does is create confusion and lead to lawyering over mega-subtleties in differences in the wording. This policy exists to highlight differences in treating BLP articles, not to say "oh, BLP articles have the same official site external link rules as every other site." That's just adding clutter. 2005 (talk) 20:52, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

So the issue is basically, that personal sites are being caught as "selfpub" and deleted?? Is that the concern? If so it can probably be handled more gracefully. FT2  02:47, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

The issue is that people use the selfpub issue as an excuse to remove personal websites from EL, even when the website belongs to the subject of the BLP; and they do this when they don't like the BLP in question, not because they care deeply about our sourcing policies. :) This is the place to point out that it's allowed. The sourcing policy, V, doesn't get into that kind of detail, and it's important to stress in this policy that the subject's voice may be heard, even if it's only a self-published voice, and even if only in EL.

Now, there may be occasions where we want to remove a personal website from EL if it contains questionable material about other people, but that's quite difficult to enforce given that people can change the contents of a website at any time. It's also the kind of issue that ends up with people tussling back and forth, so we've not mentioned it here, and I think we probably shouldn't. Ultimately, that has to boil down to common sense. SlimVirgin 18:18, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

, i may add that as the saying goes common sense is rather uncommon :) no offense intended indeed! --Bhadani (talk) 18:32, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, indeed. The problem with not relying on common sense is that instead you have to expand the policies to cover every eventuality. And the problem with endless expansion is that, the more detailed the policies, the more common sense is needed to interpret them if they're not to turn into weapons to beat people with. So we're often caught between a rock and a hard place, common sense-wise. :) SlimVirgin 19:05, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, too many wikipedians want clear rules to tell them how to edit articles on subjects they lack a background in and haven't read the sources for. Actually understanding the subject cuts down on the edit count and prevents a timely leveling up. WAS 4.250 (talk) 19:37, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I've reworded that part slightly to try and emphasize how and when self-pubs are exceptionally allowed. It now emphasizes much more directly 1/ that Unreliable sources should never be used and 2/ that self-pub in some cases are an exception, if cited as such, and then "see below". FT2  07:55, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Semi-protecting all BLPs

I'd sort of thought this was a perennial proposal, but I can't find anything about it in the last year's worth of this page's archive, so I'm raising it. Why not semi-protect all BLPs? I think it would cut down on a lot of the problems we have with IPs, whether maliciously or in good faith, adding BLP-violations to articles. Of course, it wouldn't be a cure-all - BLP violations can be found in articles that are not themselves BLPs, for one thing. For another, a determined BLP-violator would only have to register an account and wait a few days, but I don't think most malicious BLP-violators are that determined (it seems likely, although not certain, that this could have prevented the Seigenthaler incident, for example, and also some of Don Murphy's more legitimate complaints). The cost of this would be that Misplaced Pages would become ever so slightly less welcoming to newcomers, but barriers to participation on Misplaced Pages are already lower than they are almost anywhere else on the net; you don't even need to provide an e-mail address, for crying out loud. Thoughts? Flames? Sarcasticidealist (talk) 22:51, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I do not recall this being discussed before. Nevertheless, I think the proposal has merit and the downside, quite minimal. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:55, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I think we'd need a clear tagging formula, living+yes just doesn't do it {{BLP}} does, IMHO< and should be tagged on any article mentioning living people and then, sure, semi-protect. Thanks, SqueakBox 23:06, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I can definitely see that there would almost have to be some way to make it "automatic" given we have over a quarter of a million articles currently tagged as blps. Exactly how to remove the protection would be a problem. Would it be automatic upon death, or something else? If the former, couldn't I adjust the article to say, for instance, Terje Aa died yesterday as a registered user, thus unprotecting it, and then log off and edit the article with unrelated vandal-like material as an IP? Knowing which material added later, if it's done well, would potentially really screw up several articles about less widely watched pages. Any ideas? John Carter (talk) 23:37, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Presumably, admins wouldn't un-semi-protect unless the subject's death was properly-sourced (I'd hope that the semi-protection would be done by an adminbot, I think unprotections could be done manually by human admins). Sarcasticidealist (talk) 23:54, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

For the initial run, most BLPs can probably be found via two categories: Articles in Category:Living People, and articles whose talk pages are in Category:Biography articles of living people (I love how we have two categories for the exact same purpose) - any that that misses, obviously, would have to be done as we find them. --Random832 (contribs) 00:08, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

We should tag all articles containing living people, and all living people we ,mention in the encyclopedia without articles should be tagged as well. Thanks, SqueakBox 00:29, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

If the bot could be made to run regularly, it wouldn't be a problem to add others, as they'd be automatically added in the next bot run. In response to SqueakBox, I'm not entirely sure what is meant there. I'm assuming that if an article about a dead politician contained information about a scandal which occurred earlier regarding a person still living, or something similar, is what he's addressing. I would agree to that as well, although it would be substantially harder to find them all and might conceivably wind up semiprotecting more articles than we anticipate. John Carter (talk) 00:33, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

What about a dead person like Alexander Litvinenko or a case like Disappearance of Shannon Matthews where the blp issues are not such a problem with the little girl) for whom we have no reliable sources for BLP controversy but there are huge issues for 2 people mentioned int eh article (for whom we have masses of reliable sources). Yes it is scandals and controversies in the real world that are especially problematic. Thanks, SqueakBox 00:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I think, if this were to be implemented, we could use a bot for the initial run, and after that, just have people who are watching the category, or the {{blp}} template's usage, semiprotect those pages as they come. How many BLP articles are created/tagged in a day anyway? Dansiman (talk|Contribs) 00:59, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

(ec) About 1/8 of our articles are blps. I think that means at least 1/8 of the articles created probably are as well, considering that we tend to have more biographies than any other single thing deleted on the basis of notability concerns. John Carter (talk) 01:07, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I think this idea has many of the same weaknesses as banning all anonymous editing. Remember that more than three-fourths of anonymous edits are intended to improve the encyclopedia. And yes, an anon is less likely to be familiar with BLP than a registered user ... but an anon is also less likely to be familiar with WP:NPOV, WP:V, WP:NOR and various other policies and guidelines. Should we, say, semiprotect all articles on controversial subjects to maintain their neutrality? I suppose one could argue that BLP is the absolute most important policy in the entire encyclopedia, but that idea smacks of legal paranoia. When BLP problems arise, regardless of whether the offender is an IP or a registered user, we remove the offending content, along with the various other ways of dealing with the issue. Is that somehow not good enough? szyslak (t) 00:49, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I think the answer to that is a simple no. Thanks, SqueakBox 00:52, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

If you will not explain yourself coherently and make rude dismissive comments rather than answering people's questions, you can hardly expect others to accept your views. --erachima formerly tjstrf 01:04, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Ooh err I was just trying to be concise and give a simple response. This is serious stuff and I apologise if I offended you as it was far from my mind. I am thinking lots about this issue and really I take you seriously and I take you seriously. Thanks, SqueakBox 01:24, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Agree with Squeakbox. The problems arise in whether anyone actually notes the changes made. I am not myself a recent changes patroller, and never have been, so I can't speak from experience here. But I believe it is unreasonable to say that the dedicated patrollers can necessarily keep up with every change made. If I were to try to damage the article on a living person, I would probably make a series of small edits over a comparatively quick period of time, say a few days, all of which built on each other. If a patroller came along later and see the changes made over time, they might reasonably infer that the changes made were all based on news reports released over that period, as such is far from uncommon.

The carefulness about content relating to living persons isn't so much legalism as the fact that I think many of us know people have enemies out there, and not all of them are stupid enough to be easily caught. This can be particularly true now, with elections in the US coming up in a few months. I'm not sure how many of you are from outside the US, but tactics, particularly in local elections, often are contemptible. I worked in state legislature elections in California I don't want to talk about, and which I dismiss on the basis of my being in college at the time, where I would have been appalled by what I was doing if I didn't know the opponent was behaving even worse. And not so much on the basis of law but public outcry, I definitely do not want to see that sort of thing happen here. John Carter (talk) 01:07, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

See? This is a far more helpful post.

Personally, since our (in great part BLP-motivated) stable versions system is nearly ready to roll out, I would suggest that if we want a layer of technical libel protection that our efforts would be better focused on overcoming the opposition to implementing stable versions, rather than trying to get them all semi-protected. The effect would be roughly the same, and stable versions have a much higher chance of actually getting consensus for implementation than any sort of massive semi-protection would. (Szyslak's opinion is shared by a large number of editors, since allowing IPs to edit is a deeply grounded wikipedia principle. Stable versions would let them still edit after a fashion even on pages which were marked to display approved revisions only.) --erachima formerly tjstrf 01:17, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

(ec) I agree with John Carter to a point, but maybe we could semiprotect such articles when potential BLP problems arise? To address your example of active political candidates, do most or all such articles experience this problem? Out of the many thousands of elected federal, state and local officials in this country, I'd imagine a good majority of them sail to re-election with little or no serious opposition. In any case where we run into trouble, let's use semiprotection when the need arises. And yes, there are many unwatched stubs about living people, but perhaps we can encourage more vandal fighters to engage in random page or BLP patrol. I still don't see the need for pre-emptive protection, which is currently disallowed by the protection policy. Also, erachima's idea to focus on stable revisions has a lot of merit. szyslak (t) 01:23, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

It's incomprehensible to me that all policy and guideline pages are not semi-protected. It's one of those utopian bit of nonsense ideas that "widespread consensus" policy pages can be edited by any dingaling who passes by. Likewise BLP's should have that same minimal protection. Make a dingaling vandal at least spend the time making an account before being able to vandalize the page of a living human. 2005 (talk) 02:10, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I think this is a very good idea. If we can't have BLP-lock, this is a good start. Set up a bot to take a rough cut, with loose parameters, and if some get protected that shouldn't that's better than missing a few. It will take a while for us to work through the policy implications of Stable Versions so this is a good thing to do meanwhile (and perhaps beyond, if google and other bots will be looking behind the stable version itself at the in flux newer revisions) ++Lar: t/c 03:06, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I think this is a bad idea. This is allowing BLP paranoia to start cutting into "You can edit this page right now". To semi-protect an entire class of articles preemptively goes against the core principle here. Protection is temporary and only when needed due to actual abuse -- not predicted abuse. Living people are the most likely topics for people to want to edit, and they should be editable by anyone, for the same reason registration isn't required on Misplaced Pages. Equazcion •✗/C • 06:19, 3 Apr 2008 (UTC)

Wait until after Flagged Revs

May I suggest that any major changes to semi-protection standards wait until after we see how Flagged Revisions effect vandalism on this site? If, in the Flagged Revs system, we set all BLPs to only show the last assessed version, than the public will not see vandalism by default. This has the potential of both making many vandals ignore BLPs as not worth their time, and could potentially eliminate most liability issues since vandalised versions will be more hidden. If, after Flagged Revs is up and running we still have a problem with BLPs, we can come back to this discussion. --Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 06:31, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree, I think implementing stable versions on BLPs is a better method of dealing with the problems with BLPs while still allowing good contributions with IPs to be included in the articles. Davewild (talk) 07:04, 3 April 2008 (UTC)