Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 21:44, 3 April 2008

This is a place to discuss incidents.

Discussion

Regardless of the probity of adding an editor, they must be added on notification, and as such I consider Vassyana notified on this page regardless of Jossi's reverts. I also believe that editors must be added to this page when notified, and urge other editors to consider this diff. Unlike other editors, however, I will not edit war here. PouponOnToast (talk) 18:55, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

How do we appeal if an admin adds themselves and we believe them not to be sufficiently "uninvolved"? I have the first part of the procedure:

1. Ask them to remove themselves.

Now that they've refused, what's the next step?

ScienceApologist (talk) 19:09, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Who cares? So he's on a list - but I doubt any editors on the "Science" side of the debate would go to him for assistance - he's been offered multiple chances to take adminstrative action in that direction and declined to do so. He wants on the list? Fine, let him stay. PouponOnToast (talk) 19:11, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't like that he's listed under a list that claims to be "uninvolved admins". Lets say a new editor who teaches introductory chemistry starts editing homeopathy articles and has a problem. They come to this page and see him listed as an uninvolved admin. However, I submit that their interaction with this particular admin is likely to be problematic to the point of alienation if they are not aware that this admin has a history that skews in one particular direction. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:15, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Solved. PouponOnToast (talk) 19:20, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Okay, much better. Now we have to decide whether or not it makes sense to simply list administrators regardless of their involvement. This could open up a huge can of worms. Still, I will assume good faith and hope that administrators will recuse themselves when appropriate, as they are supposed to do according to WP:Admin. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:23, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

That admin should have enough common sense to recuse themselves in the face of so many requests to do so and comments about them not being "uninvolved." Obviously a number of editors consider that admin to be in involved, and that should settle the matter. I certainly consider them to be involved and not impartial. -- Fyslee / talk 02:41, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Modification proposal to probation

Proposed modification to the probation here. Lawrence § t/e 19:24, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

ScienceApologist

I am posting this information on behalf of an editor who wishes to remain anonymous for fear of embroiling themselves in the homeopathy/pseudoscience conflict. (After checking their contributions to be sure, I can verify they are not involved in this conflict and have not been previously involved in conflict with ScienceApologist so far as I can tell.) This is simply being posted so that other sysops who are more familiar with the situation may review the circumstances. I am refraining from espousing my own opinion, instead simply organizing and presenting the evidence and arguments provided to me privately.

ScienceApologist (talk · contribs) appears to be walking the border of disruption to make a point and using literalist, and potentially out-of-context, interpretations of the rules. There are also some continued edit warring and civility issues.

Jehochman warned ScienceApologist about edit warring on Rue. SA blatantly copy/pasted the notice back to Jehochman. This is a POINT and civility concern because Jehochman was not involved in edit warring on the article. SA reached four reverts on the article. This was reported and contrary to a plain review of the article history and edit summaries judged to not be a 3RR violation as somehow one revert was not a revert, and therefore it was "not a technical violation" of 3RR. (Specifically, the third edit was judged to not be a revert, but it was a partial reversion, which counts towards 3RR.) Levine2112 reverted up to the hard limit of three reverts, continuing and escalating the edit war.

SA has POINTily framed the homeopathy issue of a plant's usage in homeopathic remedies, based on the known fact that homeopathic products are known to contain very little to none of the original production substance (though it is unquestionable that the original substances are used to create homeopathic preparations). To be fair, ScienceApologist has advocated for a centralized discussion of the issue, which may be a productive step. Discussion regarding this issue has also taken place at: Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_6#Deadly_nightshade and Wikipedia_talk:Neutral_point_of_view#Deadly_nightshade. SA appears to be dishonest in some of his dismissals, for example claiming that only homeopathic references make the claims (which is contrary to the discussions above and others SA has been aware of and/or involved in).

ScienceApologist created WP:PROMINENCE as a redirect to WP:UNDUE based on the phrase "in proportion to the prominence of each" in that section. He appears to be shifting the sands of UNDUE from the exclusion of extreme minority viewpoints to demanding that the claims be prominent. These are distinctly different standards and the latter is at least a step removed from the meaning of the policy (which is simply indicating that things should be presented in proper proportion to their appearance in reliable sources). Creating a redirect to frame an ongoing argument is almost certainly a POINT violation. Furthermore, considering the ongoing and heated nature of this discussion, it is unlikely that SA was not aware that such a move would raise the heat of the conflict. On a related note, ScienceApologist is pushing principles of his own invention as though they were policy and claiming they are rooted in a "careful reading" of the rules.

It looks like SA is extremely dismissive of responses to him, characterizing responses he does not find convincing as essentially a lack of response. He also appears to be exhibiting bad faith assumptions about other editors, contrary to the ArbCom remedy.

This dispute was raised on this noticeboard twice recently (Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Editor disrupting editing with false claims of WP:PROMINENCE and Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Clarification of Homeopathy Probation Edit Policy).

Please be aware these are not all relevant diffs, simply a random sampling of the most recent. It would probably be worth reviewing the actions and posts of other editors engaged with ScienceApologist, to take into account any possible baiting and to ensure all parties are treated equitably in this dispute. Thanks for your time and attention to this situation. Vassyana (talk) 19:32, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

There are a series of shocking misstatements in the above writings. I will attempt to adress as many of them as possible, but I'll start with a standard note - "This is yet another in a series of complaints directed by supporters of pseudoscientific claptrap against SA. Over the past 7 days SA has made a distinct and substantial improvement in his civility, which was the concern expressed (again and again and again and again) by psuedoscientific supporters. It appears now that with his dramatic and continued improvement in civility, said supporters are attempting to find another tune to dance to - in this case it's hard to tell if it's revert warring or just being difficult about sourcing. Whatever, file an RFC for your content disputes like every pro-science editor is told to."

1. SA was reverse-informing Jerico of the article probation, which is a requirement for probation-related bans. While he could have changed the phrasing of the note, the technical requirement that such note be delivered excuses his copy-pasting of the notice. The warning was not for reverting. A message on a talk page is not disruptive - as such, it cannot violate WP:POINT (state your point, don't prove it).
2. The third revert was not technicaly or actually a revert. In additon, they were both edit warring, but only one of them was calling non-vandalistic edits vandalism. Calling non-vandalistic edits vandalism is an attempt to anger editors by stating their motive is to disrupt the encyclopedia. This a not a possible violation of civility, it is a directly stated violation of it.
3. Calling SA "dishonest in some of his dismissals" is a violation of good faith. There is the possiblity that there is a failure to communicate, or that he is ignoring what his opposition, who are frequently complaining about him through the various adminstrative pages. Dishonesty requires intent.
4. SA's stating that his understanding of policy is careful is perfectly appropriate. If his opponents do not like his understanding, they can file content RFCs to get further input from uninvolved experienced editors.
5. WP:POINT requres disruption. Redirects, in addition to being cheap, are not disruptive.
6. SA has asked numerous times for his opponents to state clearly and sucinctly that the sources they provide demonstrate the prominence of homeopathy to the plant - they do not do this. He is dismissive of their further evidence that the plant is used by a homeopath, because they aren't willing to show the prominence of homeopathy to the plant.
7. Finally, SA is not creating disruptive sockpuppets to harass his opponents, he is not soliciting editors from outside of wikipedia to come to his aid and he has improved dramatically on his civility. His opponents have not taken any substantial steps to improve their behavior. PouponOnToast (talk) 19:36, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

• Would it be helpful to give ScienceApologist a 30 day break from editing homeopathy articles? Perhaps they could get involved in non-controversial articles and develop better collaboration skills. Comments? Jehochman 19:37, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
• Ditto for PouponOnToast. Jehochman 19:37, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

• • Implimented by choice. I do not intend to edit in science related article space for the month of February persuant to User talk:Raymond arritt/Expert withdrawal‎. PouponOnToast (talk) 19:39, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
  • In fact, I have made no substantive changes to any homeopathy article since Jan 28. PouponOnToast (talk) 19:40, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
    • Then please refrain from making combative remarks on the related talk and project pages. That will be a big help. I recognize you are frustrated, but Rome wasn't built in a day and this dispute won't be ended so quickly either. Jehochman 19:48, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
      • A list of "combative" remarks would be helpful. I waive your obligation to assume good faith. PouponOnToast (talk) 19:56, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
        • I am hoping that you will calm down, so I will wait a day, and see if there is still any need to provide such a list. Jehochman 19:58, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
          • I would find the list useful for personal development. Please place it in my userspace, I will copy it, and then list it for speedy deletion. Thank you. PouponOnToast (talk) 20:00, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't like the fact that this discussion was closed on WP:ANI and then posted to a much less visible page. I don't think any action against SA is justified at this time. I dropped in on Talk:Deadly nightshade last night and I think that what SA is saying about sourcing is sensible. --Akhilleus (talk) 20:04, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

People at ANI asked us to "take it outside" because they were getting sick of all the bickering. Anything here that results in a sanction can be appealed to WP:AN. ScienceApologist has been edit warring and disrupting this attempt at resolution. If you could speak with them about better ways to address their concerns, that would be a good thing™. Jehochman 20:07, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

There's an obvious difference between a sanction applied after a discussion at a high-traffic page like WP:ANI and one applied after discussion on a page that few people are watching. --Akhilleus (talk) 20:18, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

True, but any uninvolved administrator can apply a sanction with no discussion whatsoever. Talking here is not as good as ANI, but better than not talking at all. I suggest we attempt to resolve problems here first, then go to ANI if more opinions are needed. Jehochman 21:02, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Do I get to know the identity of my accuser? Should I refute every diff's characterization point-by-point? What would the people here have me do? ScienceApologist (talk) 20:32, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't think anything will be applied at this time, since there is no consensus, so I don't think you need to do anything. Jehochman 21:00, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Okay. Thanks for the concise response. ScienceApologist (talk) 21:12, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

POV pushing

—Whig (talk) 20:32, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

You're accusing someone of POV-pushing? Interesting. Very good edit, I might add. Nice to clean up the Anti-Science POV from this article. OrangeMarlin 20:37, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Just a warning, labeling anything "POV-pushing" has been enough in the past to be called "uncivil". I was blocked for calling an edit "POV-pushing" in the past. ScienceApologist (talk) 22:09, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

You're not warning me are you? I just was repeating what Whig titled this section. OrangeMarlin 22:19, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

No, I was warning Whig who seems to be the only one calling any specific edits "POV-pushing". According to some of the more creative administrators at Misplaced Pages, labeling an edit "POV pushing" is an uncivil attack! However, with the general climate at Misplaced Pages now, I'm afraid that almost anybody can get caught up in being punished by administrators who think that civility must be preserved over the integrity of the encyclopedia. ScienceApologist (talk) 22:22, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Line up to drink your dose of Civility :-) Shot info (talk) 08:01, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Note on admins and probation

Admins who edit these articles, especially those who worked on them prior to the probation, are not exempt from probation. All users are bound, including admins. Lawrence § t/e 22:37, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Jossi is an involved editor, not to be listed as uninvolved admin

Per:

• Jossi (talk · contribs) Lawrence § t/e 22:26, 1 February 2008 (UTC) (Per Jossi's edits to Dana Ullman, "homeopathy's foremost spokesman", and Strychnine tree).

Lawrence § t/e 22:41, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Trying to argue that someone is involved or not involved is a fools game. Let's just have a list of admins willing to use buttons or mediate. If it turns out an involved admin uses buttons, we'll escalate at that time. No use fighting over it now. PouponOnToast (talk) 22:42, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

It strikes me as a bit bizarre that this is a point of contention. Not being listed as willing to mediate or provide enforcement doesn't exclude one from actually doing so. east.718 at 22:44, February 1, 2008

A variety of users in several pages asked Jossi to recuse, as an involved editor. It would be out of bounds for Jossi to provide enforcement on issues in this case, as an involved party using the tools. Anyone can mediate anything, of course. Lawrence § t/e 22:46, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

This section has resolved itself. PouponOnToast (talk) 22:47, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

This probation is becoming a joke, I have advised User_talk:Jehochman#Please_keep_an_eye. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:05, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

And just note that I get informed of any disruption on these pages, regardless of this probation, and regardless of who the editor involved is, I intend to use my admin privileges if I see it necessary. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:07, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

protected admins page

Good idea. One note, however - put the section header (==Admins==) on the protected page so that admins clicking "edit" by the section go to the right part, similar to RFA. PouponOnToast (talk) 00:00, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

 Done. east.718 at 00:25, February 2, 2008

editor used this probation as leverage in a content dispute

An editor is edit warning me in a content dispute. This probation may have unintended consquences. Quack Guru 00:07, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Chiropractic is on article probation for everybody, so it doesn't give anyone an advantage. The mention of probation wasn't even directed at you, it was a general statement. east.718 at 00:25, February 2, 2008

It was directed directly at me. Hyperbole wrote: And if you remove the material, considering that this article is on probation, I suspect the admins will take a very dim view of that. It was disruptive and smacks WP:POINT. Quack Guru 00:34, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Don't worry, this user is also aware of probation and so has the eye of justice cast upon her/him as well. ScienceApologist (talk) 00:36, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

No, that's commenting on the state of the article. An example of commenting on you would be specially pleading to admins by saying "look, he's on probation, he must be disruptive!" east.718 at 00:42, February 2, 2008

Disruption

PouponOnToast (talk · contribs) - Creates this Misplaced Pages:DELETEHOMEOPATHY page. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:06, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd say he's trying to make a WP:POINT, except that I have no idea what point he's trying to make. Is he suggesting that some Misplaced Pages editors are trying to delete homeopathy (whatever that means) because someone once told them not to?? --Hyperbole (talk) 05:21, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

It's a joke - see Misplaced Pages:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2008_February_1#Misplaced Pages:PROMINENCE_.E2.86.92_Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view.23Undue_weight. Geez. PouponOnToast (talk) 08:46, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I think an admin is trying really hard to be offended as can be seen here. Shot info (talk) 09:34, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Orangemarlin

I'd like someone to please take a look at this. —Whig (talk) 19:25, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Orangemarlin claimed you made a personal attack on him at his talk page; I see that all you added to his talk page was a notification of this probation. That is obviously not a personal attack. Don't worry: Orangemarlin's "final warning" is completely toothless, as he is not an administrator and cannot block you. --Hyperbole (talk) 19:41, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't see anything wrong from you, Whig - the notice was obviously a mere formality. That templated notice on your talk page isn't cool though. :| east.718 at 21:04, February 2, 2008

If you mean the notice that Orangemarlin placed on my talk page, I deleted it. —Whig (talk) 21:15, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I meant. Sorry for the ambiguity. east.718 at 21:23, February 2, 2008

edit warring at Homeopathy over category

Perhaps I misunderstood the purpose of article probation, but I thought it was supposed to stop edits like: . --Akhilleus (talk) 20:30, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

It sure looks like editwarring by User:Art Carlson, User:Orangemarlin, User:Dicklyon, and User:FCYTravis to me. Dlabtot (talk) 20:52, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

And now, . I'm starting to regret recusing myself from enforcing the probation. --Akhilleus (talk) 20:53, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Yet, I alone have been banned for taking one side of that arguement. For suggesting since there is no consensus lets move on. Since I've left things have only gotten worse. Imagine that. Hummm? The position I have taken has been supported by a number of experience moderate editors. Anthon01 (talk) 20:56, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Nore ironic is I never touched the article page. Anthon01 (talk) 20:56, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Concern regarding Felonious Monk--nothing personal

I am respectfully questioning whether or not the admin Felonious Monk should be on the list of blocking admins given his vote to ban User:Whig here and User:Abridged here. A community ban seems like a pretty serious step, and there didn't seem to be any consensus that those bans were justified. Also, some evidence of involvement in the general area of homeopathy based on these edits: , . (I'm not saying I agree with the edits or disagree; they may have been entirely appropriate, I'm just concerned about involvement in the subject area). Abridged 23:52, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

You seem to be doing your best to ensure that there are no "uninvolved" admins. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 13:22, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand your comment. I am expressing a concern about an INVOLVED admin. Please AGF. Abridged 13:48, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Abridged, the combatants will not be allowed to pick the enforcers. If Felonious Monk does something to you then you will be able to appeal the action. Attempting to eliminate his participation because you fear he might do something is not acceptable, and is disruptive. If you continue on this path, you will be topic banned. Jehochman 14:10, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I thought that admins weren't supposed to enforce in areas they have edited in. I am just raising a concern because FM has edited in this area. I not disrupting, I am looking to clarify the rules. I thought I read above that if anyone had concerns that "enforing" admins were involved, they should civilly express them. I was just doing this. There is no cause for threatening me with a topic ban. Abridged 19:39, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Polite disruption is still disruptive. Stop now. Thank you. Jehochman 20:21, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Look, I was not disrupting. I was just doing what is supposted to be allowed. Why are you being so rude? Abridged 20:40, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Disruption by MartinPhi

I reverted this addition to the talk page by MartinPhi. I'm not sure what this falls under, but surely it falls under something, ie disruption. What has been doing on at Raymond's talk page has been going on in full view of the WP community, so it is not some big secret to anyone who has been editing over the past few days. That being said, the addition had no implications to further the homeopathy article. And he was already notified, prior to this, about the probation of the article. Prior to posting this, he added the passage back. Baegis (talk) 06:45, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

You're looking for WP:TALK--talk page posts are supposed to be for improving an article, rather than general discussion. --Akhilleus (talk) 06:51, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, and those bit he inserted didn't help the article at all. Baegis (talk) 07:54, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

The section was removed as having nothing to do with the article. However, it was a call for NPOV editing, with reference to a page were Homeopathy was being discussed, and actions concerning Homeopathy were being planned. It was also removed as soap boxing. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 02:24, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Disruptions that need attention

I have left messages starting here (in this section), and here. Please do something about these editors. -- Fyslee / talk 07:29, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

My failure to agree with Fyslee is not a disruption. His threats in my talk page are, however. —Whig (talk) 07:33, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Your continued stonewalling is disruptive and my explanation of why it is improper is not a threat. AGF. This page is made to be used, and it was you who told me to report this matter. You did it on your talk page. -- Fyslee / talk 08:07, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I consider this vandalism. —Whig (talk) 08:16, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

So I guess that I apparently vandalized my own talk page by placing it there and that everyone else who adds the template to talk pages where homeopathy is being discussed is also vandalizing. Interesting.... You need to AGF of me and of the template. It is a notification template that is good to have. -- Fyslee / talk 08:23, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I am disengaging as Whig is becoming extremely defensive, failing to AGF, and refusing to accept any helpful advice. -- Fyslee / talk 08:25, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

But you placed it on his page without asking him or telling him. Anthon01 (talk) 08:32, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. It's possible that the talk page of a participant in the discussion might also be a page subject to review. But I'm forced to admit that placing the notice constitutes "telling him" under Misplaced Pages policies, as you receive notice on edit edits of your talk page. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 13:13, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I think you're confusing two things here. I was notified about the article probation some time ago, and Fyslee was not notifying me. What he did was place the homeopathy-warning template on the top of my talk page so that visitors to my talk page would be warned. What he does to his own talk page is his business. —Whig (talk) 18:24, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Relax, everybody. Templating somebody's talk page could be viewed as provocation, but not vandalism. I think people can template their own talk page if they desire. Nobody is forced to visit Whig's talk page, so if he wants to make it a battle zone and suffer disruption, that is his business, so long as it is not being used to attack other editors, in which case we have a variety of control measures available. Jehochman 14:08, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I've slept on it and am relaxed. If I had placed a homeopathy-probation template on the top of Fyslee's talk page, I would have been banned. But since this is a user talk page dispute the Article probation/Incidents page may not be the correct place for this dispute to be. Or perhaps it is, I'm not sure that it matters. —Whig (talk) 18:27, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Now that I've had time to think about it, the template is normally placed at the top of article talk pages, but placed like ordinary comments on user talk pages. I guess that's what I should have done, just like has happened other places, and what Whig had previously done to me. His edit history shows he has been placing warning templates on several other user's talk pages, even before and after I placed the template on his talk page. I have no particular interest in pursuing that matter. If Since he chooses to continue to ignore the warning in the template by continuing his disruptive stonewalling, as well as advocacy of homeopathy on talk pages several places at Misplaced Pages, then I'll let admins apply the sanctions named in the template. -- Fyslee / talk 04:59, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm interested in seeing the diffs that support your allegations of 'disruptive stonewalling'. Are your accusations accurate? Dlabtot (talk) 05:05, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Fyslee has already come to my talk page to apologize, I haven't been placing templates, though I have notified several people of the article probation as required to make it applicable. It shouldn't be necessary that I come here to defend myself again after accepting Fyslee's apology. —Whig (talk) 05:56, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

The apology was only as regards my method of placing the template, as explained above. Your's, Anthon01's, and Martinphi's stonewalling are still a problem. -- Fyslee / talk 06:47, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

A diff would be helpful. Thanks. Anthon01 (talk) 06:49, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Here it is. It's similar to what's above. -- Fyslee / talk 15:14, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time and forgive me for not being clearer. I was asking for a diff illustrating recent stonewalling. Thanks. Anthon01 (talk) 16:54, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Let me turn the question around. Please present a selection of diffs from your contribution history that show encyclopedic contributions, as opposed to argumentation (often in the form of politely phrased questions), lawyering over the rules, and lobbying for alt-med causes. You have a very polite tone, but you seem to want to engage people in endless debates (stonewalling) and repeatedly make polite requests for information that is easily found. This all appears to be an effort to advance a content agenda. Jehochman 17:06, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

The agenda is to make alt-med articles balance using V RS. I will give you an example in a moment. First you diffs. You've posted three diffs. The first one is in response to an editor that deleted someone else post on a talk page. As far as I could tell, there was nothing inappropriate in his post, and I ask the editor not to delete the post. The second one is in reference to an redirect for deletion. I answer Lisa's question and asked a question, that once answered, would allow me to cast an informed vote. The third is a direct result of "stonewalling" by the admin, East718 who banned me. I'll post some examples in a moment. Anthon01 (talk) 14:23, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Rather then give you one diff, I would like to present at once the result of over 100 diffs on an article. What is the best way using WP software to do that? Anthon01 (talk) 14:37, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Since I haven't gotten a response I will respond it the best way I know how. I hope it suffices. Here is a diff, provided as a starting point and not as an edit example, that shows the Wheatgrass article about the time I got started, October 2007. Please view the whole article below the edit boxes. Compare that to the current wheatgrass article. Almost all the significant diffs are mine, from October on. Keep in mind that I had just started editing wikipedia at that time. The page needs lots more work, but it was a start. I removed the promotional stuff that formerly populated the page, initiated the creation of a disambiguous page, added peer-reviewed references and tables, expanded the history and the intro, and added the pretty picture of wheatgrass in the intro. 1) On the wheatgrass page I have actively removed promo material. 2) Wheatgrass advocates assert that "1 oz wheatgrass juice = the overall nutrient content of 2.2 lb. of fresh vegetables." I am always fascinated by such assertions but view them with a good dose of skepticism. So I searched the FDA nutrient database and discovered that claim wasn't credible. The wheatgrass page now reflects that. BTW, I drink wheatgrass on a regular basis. In spite of that, I followed the sources. I think that's NPOV? As I have been accused of being a "POV pusher," here and elsewhere, I suggested that a I am, or better yet, have become a Neutral "POV pusher." Anthon01 (talk) 16:04, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm curious as to why this user has been singled out. Presumably he is not arguing against himself. Therefore there must be two sides to this 'endless debate'. You accuse him of trying to advance a content agenda but I don't see how his actions are substantively different from the actions of several editors involved in this fiasco, some of whom are quite explicit in proclaiming that they are trying to do just that. How is 'stonewalling' different from 'continuing to disagree'? Did User:Anthon01 make any disruptive edits? Dlabtot (talk) 17:51, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

There is no difference. When there is a consensus, or when Misplaced Pages policy is clear, those who continue to disagree|argue|stonewall (choose the word you like) cause harm to the project. Misplaced Pages is not a discussion forum. Misplaced Pages is not an experiment in unlimited free speech. Talk pages are to be used to help improve the articles, and users are expected to work cooperatively. Those who come here to push an agenda are sooner or later asked to leave. Disruptive editors will be removed when they have exhausted the community's patience. This article was put on probation to facilitate those removals. I am waiting, showing patience, and observing which editors are able to act cooperatively, and which are only here to argue. The argumentative ones will be removed eventually. In looking through Anthon01's contributions I see that they are not building an encyclopedia. They are engaging in advocacy. This is an improper use of a Misplaced Pages account, and if it continues, they could be banned for a long time. There is no deadline, however. I am wiling to wait a while to see if things improve. Jehochman 18:05, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

When there is a consensus, or when Misplaced Pages policy is clear -- which is pretty obviously not the situation here. Dlabtot (talk) 18:09, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I think consensus does not mean what you think it means. Misplaced Pages is a clueocracy. All opinions do not get equal weight. The single purpose accounts who are here to promote homeopathy, and do so with counter-policy arguments, wiki-lawyering and endless polite questioning, get almost no weight when it comes to assessing consensus. Likewise, the pro-science edit warriors who oppose too strongly, in violation of NPOV, will also have their arguments discounted. Jehochman 18:13, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Leaving aside the question of whether I am ignorant of the meaning of WP:CONSENSUS - do you believe there is a consensus? What about this RfC? Was a consensus reached there? If so, was it implemented? Or was implementation stonewalled by those who disagreed? Dlabtot (talk) 18:38, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

The use of endless disruption and discussion can stop a consensus from forming, and is a serious form of stonewalling. It behooves editors who find themselves arguing against the good sources used (IOW failing to learn and change their POV) and against policies, to stop the objecting and sometimes simply be silent and allow things to progress forwards. Sometimes the question to be asked is "Why isn't there a consensus?" If it's because of contrarian obstinacy and stonewalling, then the lack of consensus is the fault of those who are stonewalling by their endless advocacy and pushing of minority and alternative agendas. Those POV may be allowed (and may even be required) in articles if properly sourced, but the POV are themselves disruptive because they are often denying reality or are against scientifically validated viewpoints. It is often a form of OR for fringe editors to come here and attempt to argue against the scientific majority POV. Another matter is that continually claiming that "there is no consensus" (as a means of stopping unfavorable edits) and then asking "do you believe there is a consensus?" (when there obviously isn't) is not constructive, but is just more stonewalling and is disruptive.

It is important to distinguish between two things:

1. Editing an encyclopedia often requires that we use the "writing for the enemy" tactic when including distasteful nonsense that must be included because NPOV requires even nonsensical realities to be documented and included.
2. Actually believing nonsense is bad enough, but expressing those POV in order to advocate them is not okay. That's not editing, it's preaching and advocacy, and that's disruptive and draws attention away from writing an encyclopedia. If those POV were scientifically documented majority viewpoints it would be perfectly fine to simply assert that reality is reality, which, if done civilly is a legitimate defense against the advocacy of nonsensical POV as if they were reality.

In short, nonsense and fringe viewpoints may need to be included using good sources, but they should not be preached or advocated. Misplaced Pages talk pages are not mission fields for such POV missionaries. Proselytizing isn't allowed here. -- Fyslee / talk 06:42, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I think that characterizing disagreement as fringe and nonsense is the problem, rather than neutrally acknowledging the fact that people hold a diversity of viewpoints. It is not required that editors share the same or hold purportedly mainstream views, and it seems that you are engaging in the very behavior you complain about on behalf of your own viewpoint. If the NPOV policy is followed and all significant views are included in the article with verifiable and reliable sources and described neutrally, then battle will presumably come to an end. The fact that some editors want the article to present a particular POV, whether that POV is presented as scientific or mainstream it certainly is not the case that everyone agrees, and homeopathy in particular is very much a part of the mainstream in many countries all over the world, even though it has a number of critics who claim it is pseudoscience. It is not stonewalling for editors like myself (who you have accused above) to decline to change our own POV. You do not have to agree with my POV, and I do not have to agree with yours. —Whig (talk) 18:12, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

expand area blocks

The warrioring is getting out of control. Can we start issuing topic bans instead of article bans, and have that topic ban include these pages, such as Talk:Homeopathy/Article probation/Incidents and Talk:Homeopathy/Article probation? Please? I see at least one editor here that is banned from Homeopathy but is all over this page, not helping Misplaced Pages. If people are actually here to work on Misplaced Pages, there a million other articles to work on if barred for a week from Homeopathy junk. If they are incapable of working on other topics or areas, perhaps they should be permanently shown the door. Lawrence § t/e 14:18, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I prefer not to cut people off when it isn't necessary. If anybody needs to be topic banned, please post diffs showing disruption. Jehochman 14:23, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Get up, get get, get down

major edit without talk page discussion revert revert major edit without talk page discussion revert revert revert revert revert revert. 911 Is a Joke. PouponOnToast (talk) 18:35, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Action has been taken. Please do not make inflammatory comments. Jehochman 22:38, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

The article edit warred over was the main article. I noticed the edit war two and a half hours after the war started. The first action taken was 3 hours later. When is it ok to call 911 a joke? PouponOnToast (talk) 22:45, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

No. Jehochman 22:47, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps. PouponOnToast (talk) 22:59, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Disruption on Talk:Arsenicum album

—Whig (talk) 22:29, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I fail to see anything wrong with trying to get input as to a potential merge target before formally proposing the merge. I proposed the wrong target at metalogic, although it still appears that the present article should be merged, although an article on yet another topic by that name might be appropriate. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 22:46, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

This is disruptive, there is no consensus to merge the article anywhere. Arthur Rubin participated in a recent AfD (brought by a since-identified sock of another user) on Arsenicum album, and argued for merging without providing a reason, nor did he respond to a request for clarification. He is seeking to disrupt by any means, per his comment in that AfD: "Do not keep intact." —Whig (talk) 23:07, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

If one looks at the section, it appears there is merely a difference of opinion, but characterized by Whig exercising extreme bad faith towards Arthur Rubin, including allegations that are personal attacks. Thus his complaint here is actually a form of forum shopping and is very disruptive. His accusation falls on his own head. Arthur's judgment of his attacks as disruption is quite accurate and should have consequences, especially under the reigning conditions of this article probation which he knew existed when he wrote his attacks. -- Fyslee / talk 05:41, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Hey Fyslee, take a look at the Outside, uninvolved opinion from User:Keilana. —Whig (talk) 05:46, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

So Keilana agrees with you. Fine. That's not the point here. I couldn't care less about the subject, just your attitude and comments towards Arthur. You were failing to AGF, which is a policy violation. It's not collaborative and in the situation was disruptive. -- Fyslee / talk 05:56, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Chiropractic related problems

civility problems and copyright violations and exposed a person's real name

EBDCM is a newbie but is making uncivil remarks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Chiropractic#copyright_violation http://en.wikipedia.org/Chiropractic#Safety_issues The safety issues section has a text dump of copyrighted information.

Please take a look here. EBDCM has put a link on the talk page claiming he knows who I am and by clicking on the link at the website exposes a real person's name.

This was reported to the noticeborad but no action was taken. Regards, --QuackGuru (talk) 06:31, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Chiropractic&diff=next&oldid=191113326 After I made a report here the probation tag was removed without any reason. I do not understand why. QuackGuru (talk) 18:06, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Chiropractic&diff=prev&oldid=191813064 Read the edit summary.

I am offended by the edit summary. I want more uninvolved editors and the probation restored. QuackGuru (talk) 18:17, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Update: EBDCM has apologized and was sorry. QuackGuru (talk) 05:31, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

insensitive remark using the offense word hate

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Chiropractic&diff=prev&oldid=191818149 I hate to do this, but I agree with QG.

This is what happens when the probation tag is lifted. Draw your own conclusions. QuackGuru (talk) 18:14, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I strongly object to QG misusing my comment above and have edited it accordingly and have strucken out my misused comment above. As to his other complaints, there may well be problems with some edit summaries, but they have nothing to do with homeopathy and should be dealt with using any normal rules that might apply to uncivil edit summaries. -- Fyslee / talk 07:54, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I hate to do this, but I agree with QG... Read the entire comments. Before and after. What in the world does it mean when Fyslee claims I hate to do this, but I agree with QG... QuackGuru (talk) 23:18, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Why do you insist on misusing my statement? Don't try to make my statement mean more than was intended. I definitely do not agree with you on many other matters, and you seem to be misusing my statement to make it appear I agree with you on this matter. That's not the case, so please leave me and my statement out of this. Please delete it (the "I hate to do this...." link and statement above) immediately or I'll have to take this up the chain of command and have you dealt with in a more severe manner. -- Fyslee / talk 04:47, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

This is about Fyslee stated: I hate to this, and then went on to say, but I agree with QG. This was an insensitive comment and very offense to me. The statements by Fyslee makes it clear to me he hates to say he agrees with me when he does agree with me on any matter. That is what it appears to me. Please leave me alone with your incivil remarks. QuackGuru (talk) 05:28, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I request permission to restore the probation tag. QuackGuru (talk) 05:58, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Are you saying that all this time your use of my comment was because you found it offensive? I had no idea! This is a revelation. I had no idea that that was the issue. All my comments above were made under the assumption that you were talking about something else. Sorry about the confusion. It would have helped if you had spelled it out instead of just listing a bunch of links and words from various people without much explanation. (Note that his thread is based on a previous edit that has been moved here and is now out of context.) It looked to me like you were attempting to make my words of support in one limited situation look like words of support for you in all situations, which is not true. As my revision of my comment shows, I thought you were talking about something else.

As to "leave me alone with your remarks", sorry, can't do that. You quote me and apparently are accusing me of something, so I have a right to defend myself. This has nothing to do with homeopathy or the probation. This is apparently about some difference of opinion, and where I actually agreed with you. You cannot force me to agree with you all the time, so just be grateful that I agreed with you that time. If you take offense, that's your problem. -- Fyslee / talk 06:43, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I wish you would quit your constant refactoring of your comments above, especially since I have already replied to their earlier versions. This one now adds the word "hate". That word obviously has many meanings and my use is perfectly normal jargon of an inoffensive and informal nature, and has nothing to do with anything serious or of great consequence. Please stop making a mountain out of a molehill. -- Fyslee / talk 05:11, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I took the "I hate to do this, but I agree with QuackGuru" as being not that he hated to agreed with QuackGuru, but that he hated to disagreed with me and User:EBDCM. I took that as an "I'm sorry, but you're wrong" type comment. I can see how QG might have taken it that way, but I don't think Fyslee meant it that way. -- Dēmatt (chat) 05:19, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Fyslee meant something and it was directed at me. I was insulted. Agreeing with me sparks hatred? This was disgraceful. QuackGuru (talk) 06:37, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I guess you are determined to spin this as negatively as possible, and that is disruption. My use of the word has nothing to do with "hatred" in the sense you are using it. Please drop this disruptive use of this page. Even I am getting embarrassed seeing you behave like this. -- Fyslee / talk 06:43, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) With all of things to fight about on this article, why go to so much effort to find additional things to get angry about? This is a non-issue. Drop it, stop going out of your way to pour gasoline on it, and move on. MastCell  06:45, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Major changes to Arsenicum album without discussion but with deceptive edit summaries

Neither this edit nor this edit were discussed on the talk page of the article, contrary to edit summary. Editor making said edits is under an unblock-mentorship agreement, though it appears their mentor has taken a break. The terms of the most recent unblock-mentorship was that the editor "may only make significant changes (anything past typo fixes, spelling corrections, etc.) after you have reached a consensus on the talk page." I am unwilling to deal further with disruptive single purpose editors-for-profit with conflicts of interest, so I leave it to someone else to even engage in discussions regarding this. PouponOnToast (talk) 16:22, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Information that was not relevant to arsenicum album was removed. Material had previously been added with the intent of "debunking" and discrediting homeopathy in general. That has no place in an article on arsenicum album. Arion 3x3 (talk) 16:49, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't care if the edit was right or not. It's been made clear that the order is discuss your major edits before making them. I seem to have missed the discussion. PouponOnToast (talk) 16:55, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

If you don't disagree with the edit, then placing procedural roadblocks is just wasting everyone's time. Obviously a lack of disagreement is consensus. —Whig (talk) 17:09, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Regardless of my agreement or lack there of, the edit was never discussed. PouponOnToast (talk) 17:16, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I confirm that there was no discussion. ScienceApologist (talk) 17:24, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Given that PouponOnToast has been making bold edits to the same article and citing WP:BRD as justification, it is hard to reconcile with these protestations. —Whig (talk) 17:39, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I am not under an unblock-mentorship agreement, nor ar my edit summaries dishonest. PouponOnToast (talk) 17:45, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

What is the opinion of the mentor on this matter? ScienceApologist (talk) 17:58, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Lame. That's what this is. Lame and ridiculous. I'm semi-breaking from admin duties (not including mentorship) for a few weeks, I'm not on a wiki-break. If there's nothing wrong with the edits, then sit down. Dana doesn't need to be blocked for making constructive edits. There's been discussion on the talk page, I could go read it, but considering it's been stated that it's not a bad edit, I don't see the point. Come to me when he does something wrong. Until then, we've all got more important things to deal with. Lara❤Love 18:05, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Uh, it's a terrible edit - basically removing an just one side of the "dispute" over the effectiveness of the substance. It was definitively something wrong. PouponOnToast (talk) 18:08, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

(note - links corrected) PouponOnToast (talk) 18:10, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps you and Dana read the same essay. So just discuss the changes and work out a common ground. There wouldn't be a need for probation if you all could just work together peacefully. Work it out. Lara❤Love 18:35, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, are you removing the restriction that Dana discuss his proposed changes on talk pages and reach consensus before making them? If you are, please note that on Dana's talk page. Thanks. PouponOnToast (talk) 18:37, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

In due respect, it seems that some editors here are not reading the Discussion above . Several days ago I posted information about some recommended changes that I was proposing. I then said that I was going to make these changes unless someone suggested otherwise...and I only received support for doing. Not a single person said others. I then made the changes. Why someone would say that I didn't get support is a bit unclear and suggests bias. As for my summaries, I rightly encouraged people to read the Discussion, though I'm surprised that this wasn't done. This is an article about a specific homeopathic medicine, and the information here should focus on that subject, not the entire subject of homeopathy. If the entire subject of homeopathy needs to be in every homeopathic article in wikipedia, should we expect the entire subject of herbology be included in every article on a single herb? Of course not. And to clarify, LaraLove is still mentoring me, and it is strange that some editors above would suggest otherwise even though they also noted specific mentoring from just last night. To me, these complaints against my editing and me are false complaints that do not show AGF. Dana Ullman 18:47, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Where exactly did you discuss this? PouponOnToast (talk) 18:53, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Since LaraLove is no longer taking admin action, the mentorship of Danaullman should be remanded to an admin who has the time and the willingness to use administrative actions. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:36, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I quite agree that the edits were made with deceptive edit summaries, and I'm requesting a review under the proceedures of this probation, whether or not Danaullman (talk · contribs) is on probation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arthur Rubin (talk • contribs) 21:34, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

ScienceApologist is incorrect in saying that LaraLove is no longer my mentor, as her comment to me at my userpage simply 12 hours before ScienceApologist wrote his above comment shows (I wish editors would do a little homework before making accusations). Let's . Arthur Rubin's recommendation to delete the general information on homeopathy in this article was the precise edit that I made and for which he and I are obviously in agreement. And the initial complainer about this specific edit for which Rubin and I agree was by an editor, Poupon-on-Toast, who has now left wikipedia. Don't we all have better and more constructive things to do? Dana Ullman 17:49, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Checking out out LaraLove's User Talk page, it appears that what ScienceApologist wrote above is correct. Brunton (talk) 18:07, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

However, if you simply look at her contributions and/or on my user-page, you (or he...or anyone) would find that she is still actively mentoring me. In any case, you now know. Dana Ullman 23:13, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

edit war continuing at Thuja occidentalis

The edit war continues. Attempts at discussion are being stonewalled. Dlabtot (talk) 20:54, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

The article has been protected by another admin. MastCell  22:37, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Civility on Arsenicum album

Could someone try to keep an eye on the Arsenicum album talk page? I have noticed that since Dana's mentor left (wikibreak, see above), he has become increasingly emboldened to push the civility envelope against opposing editors. He also has developed a new catchall of accusing anyone who dares to disagree with him of stonewalling. OfftheFence, Brunton, Arthur Rubin and myself could all attest to this statement, I'm sure. Frankly, it is quite annoying to have to scratch tooth and nail for every minor detail change. He is also in possession of a study that he continues to reference and include in the article (Cazin) but no one else has a copy of said study. Considering his actual profession is homeopathy related, this poses a serious problem for including any quotes for the study. It's all detailed on the talk page. Cheers! Baegis (talk) 04:35, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I welcome people to come to visit the article on Arsenicum album. I think that you'll find the discussion reasonably civil, though I think that you'll also find some editors stonewalling by not accepting RS, V, and notable research. Some editors have real difficulty accepting the fact that there are numerous studies that show positive effects from homeopathic medicines. Please do not blame me if you do not happen to have a copy of a study. As it turns out, some other editors happen to have the Linde meta-analysis (1994) on environmental toxicology which describes this study, adds to its notability, and verifies it as a study as high quality. Then, after some editors find that they are not successful in deleting a study, they attack the authors of the study, as was recently done by Baegis on Klaus Linde (a highly respected researcher AND evaluator of research). To me, it is a tad ironic that Baegis would say that I am "emboldened to push the civility envelope" without providing reference. He then asserts that my mentor "left" which he knows isn't true (I have told him such, and so other other editors). Come and see for yourself. DanaUllman 17:31, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Heck, just above, I added a comment on Feb 17 noting that my mentor is still active. Perhaps some other editors might benefit from having a mentor. DanaUllman 17:34, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I can only assume you mean that I need a mentor. Gee thanks. I know full well that Lara may still be editing, but she is not using the mop and on her user page it clearly states that she would will be only writing articles during her quasi-break. And her edits to pretty much anything regarding you stop on Feb 14. Since then, the Arsenicum album page has turned into a veritable battleground. I don't think I need to go into detail about this whole stonewalling mess. The sources you are pushing are questionable at best and you currently possess a study that you insist on including but will not provide anyone any answers about said study. Pretty sure that would be the definition of stonewalling right there. And please, stop appealing to Linde's "authority" on this issue and lets address the actual problems with the article. But yes, I do encourage the admins to come take a look at the page. And watch Dana's behavior here, here, here (Dr 88, sock puppet reference), here, here (yet another stonewall comment), here, or here. Baegis (talk) 04:42, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Just to be clear, I think friend Dana was implicitly accusing me of being a sock-puppet of Dr 88. I am not and nor am I a sock-puppet of anyone else. If you look at the content of what I have written it is fairly clear that I have expertise that is different from each of the other editors that have been involved in this discussion. It is a pity that this tactic is employed to avoid dealing with the issues themselves. Playing the man not the ball is a dirty tactic in Association Football, but must be more acceptable to some citizens of one of our ex-colonies where they have developed their own version of the game.OffTheFence (talk) 22:18, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Friend Dana, it is only fair to let you know that I now have a copy of the Cazin study. I have not got time at the moment to make substantive comment on its contents versus what has been said about it. Perhaps you would like to take this opportunity based on your direct knowledge of the paper to check whether any mistaken impressions have been given of it. Have you actually read it? Whig was sure you have, but you have steadfastly failed to answer that direct question. I think now would be a good time for you to confirm that you have and to produce quotations directly from it.OffTheFence (talk) 22:11, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I haven't ended my mentorship of Dana. I thought that had been made clear by both myself and others. Regardless, if there are issues with Dana, as the banner on his talk page states, they should be brought to me. Regards, Lara❤Love 18:31, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Dana still falls under the restrictions and guidelines of the Homeopathy avec ou sans a mentor. Baegis (talk) 21:32, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

One week ban of Randy Blackamoor

The first two paragraphs below are copied from Talk:Homeopathy, to bring a discussion here rather than continue it there.

It might be helpful to all concerned if you could explain WHY you have banned him? He has not said anything above that he has not said before several times. Irritating though that may be yet he is surely entitled to express his view and has he actually insulted anyone? Furthermore, he has not tampered with the article. Purely from a sociological viewpoint his view, extreme though it is, should be heard IMO. thanks Peter morrell 14:02, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi Peter, yes I agree he has made a large number of similar comments, and, if you look at his talk page, he has received warnings for these comments. Regarding his 1 week ban, I don't think his conduct was helping to improving the article. Remember, this page isn't a free-for-all debating forum, but is supposed to be civil, productive discussion on how we can improve the article. Finally, in keeping with this page being purely for discussion on how we can improve the article, if you want to continue this discussion could you do so at Talk:Homeopathy/Article_probation/Incidents. Thanks! Addhoc (talk) 15:29, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Peter: I think this ban is appropriate. RB certainly has been insulting in some of his comments, to me for one. He makes sweeping generalizations about the motives of editors he disagrees with. He suggests that civility is a tactic used to subvert the discussion (subvert is my word, not his.) He wildly misrepresents other people's positions. Most seriously, in my opinion, his contributions repeatedly derail discussions that might otherwise be productive. I agree with you that his views should be heard. However, I have read enough of them to last me through an entire week of his ban. Wanderer57 (talk) 15:53, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

My point simply was about freedom of speech: we should not be banning folks just for their extreme views but more for offending others. Those views certainly exist extreme or not but even if they were true, WP should still strive to describe homeopathy neutrally and fairly, even if it were proved to be some crazy pseudoscience and founded in some weird religious belief, which I know it isn't. Widely divergent views should be welcomed. That was all really. Peter morrell 20:16, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a forum for free speech. While we do respect different points of view, we require editors to collaborate. Those who battle may be pulled aside for a while or asked to leave permanently, depending on the severity. Jehochman 20:40, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Although, in the case of the homeopathy article, only those who "battle" for the level-headed presentation of scientific fact will be "pulled aside" or "asked to leave permanently." The civility clause apparently does not apply to accusing other editors of being spammers, saying they are making up legislation that does not exist, or accusing them of being paid agents of pharmaceutical companies, just to name some activities of user SmithJones on that talk page that no one seems to care about. What we have on that page is sympathetic, pro-insanity administrators collaborating in an effort to drive all anti-homeopathy people (which, by necessity, is all people with the slightest understanding of science, evidence, reality, etc) off the page, by using the vague, catch-all "civility" clauses as a bludgeon against one side, and ignoring the behavior of their own side. Randy Blackamoor (talk) 18:45, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

To be honest, I wouldn't go that far. Jehochman was willing to give Arion 3x3 and TheDoctorIsIn bans for their behavior (though it was later mitigated to a 1rr limitation), for instance. This wasn't a civility issue, so it's apparent he's trying to look for other potential methods of disruption. Now, if you see any pro-homeopathic editor being uncivil, you're quite welcome to make a post about it here (even during your ban, I assume (admins are free to correct me if I'm wrong, and I'll redact as necessary)) (Edit: See Jehochman's comment below). Or you could also report uncivil anti-homeopathic editors, even. Or maybe you could even decide that administrator intervention isn't necessary and just discuss the civility issues with them on their talk page and try to come to an amicable understanding. Up to you. --Infophile 18:59, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

You can spend 7 days compiling a list of abusive edits (I suggest using a text editor offline) and then present them. I am looking for 3 - 5 egregious examples of abuse per editor. Keep it simple and show the best examples of abuse. I would not ban people from using this page, unless they cause disruption here, but it would be good form to avoid this area of Misplaced Pages completely until your ban expires. Jehochman 19:06, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Excellent work. Ban people for being pro-science, ban them for talking about being banned, then ban them for coming to the page where such bans are discussed. Looks like you've constructed a perfectly closed loop where you can just snuggle up with the other folks and until barnstars come out, and anyone who disagrees is banned. Randy Blackamoor (talk) 19:10, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Should the above comment be removed? You were not banned for any of the reasons you provided here. You were banned for repeated incivility, and for no other reason. What is next for this editor. He doesn't seem interested in community input. Anthon01 (talk) 20:11, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Don't goad. We are trying to work together, not create a sports competition where we try to get each other banned. Randy is upset. Let him vent. Jehochman 02:21, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Please AGF. I am not trying to compete for banning. I didn't know lewd comments were acceptable. Anthon01 (talk) 03:26, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

In a crew of dozens of two-faced, politicking liars who populate the homeopathy talk page, I have found Anthon01 to be the most dishonest. You have followed me around Misplaced Pages for weeks, built up a file on me on your talk page, placed a host of warnings on the same page, and used backdoor channels to send more than one sympathetic administrator against me. Of course you are trying to get me banned--working to get people who don't believe in your insane pro-homeopathy stance banned is all you do on Misplaced Pages. Randy Blackamoor (talk) 04:11, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

There's a saying - when you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do, is - stop digging. Dlabtot (talk) 04:15, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

The people who insist on evangelizing for magic are going to do whatever they want to do with me and the rest of the reality-based community anyway. I'm not going to indulge in their pretense that this is or was ever about "civility." Until I convert to their fundamentalist form of idiocy, they are not going to care how I phrase my advocacy for reality and science, so let's not pretend. Randy Blackamoor (talk) 04:18, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

You are dense. I. am. trying. to. get. you. to. be. civil. Attack the content, not the editors. Nothing more. Stop the personal attacks and everything is fine. I'll even trash my dosier. And I haven't been following you around for weeks. You make a lot of unfounded statements.Anthon01 (talk) 13:40, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Top sekwet advise to anthon: RB has figured out hour despickabul sekwet stwatagey. Dont annser himn. PS Dont tel anywun this. Wanderer57 (talk) 04:26, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

ROTFL. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 06:24, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

That's pretty funny. Almost as funny as when homeopaths sell water to people with cancer, and then they die because they didn't get any actual medical treatment! Hilarious! Randy Blackamoor (talk) 04:37, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Good point. Now find sources that support your charge that people are dying from homeopathy, and if it meets the V, RS and WEIGHT policies, we can put it in the article. I'll put it in myself. Anthon01 (talk) 13:44, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Incivility and disruption on Talk:Arsenicum album

Could an admin please take a look at this? —Whig (talk) 02:42, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I note also that I have come across this page by accident while looking at some background on homeopathy's probation status. A comment placed on my Usertalk page would have triggered a message to let me know that you had done this, but that seems not to be a routine courtesy. Also on my usertalk page I have also not recieved the courtesy of an answer to my direct question about whether you had taken any action against Dana for implying that I was a liar (in connection with whether I had a copy of the Linde paper). You also did not answer my direct question about whether you had taken any action against Dana for editing the main article space and claiming in doing so that is was "per" the Talk page, although in fact no such consensus had been reached. I think this would be a suitable time to answer both these questions.OffTheFence (talk) 22:36, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, take a look at it and notice how the caps are only turned on after OffTheFence poses the same question to Dana several times but Dana does not answer him. It all comes back to the point I brought up above. Dana is the only one who has access to this study and he is refusing to answer any questions about it but insisting that it is a quality source. Baegis (talk) 04:42, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Aside from the gaming with ALL-CAPS, it might be worth considering whether a source that is only available to one person (if such is the case) can be a legitimate Misplaced Pages source. Wanderer57 (talk) 06:22, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Baegis is incorrect. OffTheFence has said he/she has a copy of the same source. —Whig (talk) 08:46, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

No, he says that he has a copy of the Linde study, not the Cazin. If he had a copy of Cazin study, why would he keep badgering Dana for an answer to a question he could easily answer himself? Dana appears to be the only person with the full study. Baegis (talk) 09:01, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I have just confirmed that I now have the Cazin study as well. I don't have time to deal with its content at the moment, but will try and get round to it in the next 24hrs.OffTheFence (talk) 22:27, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps the better solution would be to request a copy of the study if that can be provided. —Whig (talk) 09:07, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

If Dana would answer the questions, we could then decide if a copy of the study is needed. Because if the answers to the questions aren't what they should be, the study is not going to pass the RS test. I guess I will take that as an apology as well. So thanks. Baegis (talk) 09:10, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

The RS test is not whether the study was a double blind randomized control test. I have encouraged you to seek advice from WP:RSN. You have so far declined to do so and I do not wish to be excessively repetitive, but your bringing your content dispute here does not seem the right place for it. —Whig (talk) 09:14, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

It seems quite obvious to me, reading through this, that it's DanaUllman who's stonewalling and refusing to discuss. This led to quite-understandable frustration. In my opinion, he's the problem here, not OffTheFence. As for the study meeting reliable sources criteria, it can't possibly do that until someone other than Dana Ullman looks at it and interprets it. Dana has a documented COI on Misplaced Pages, and as such we can't trust his voice on an issue like this without some independent confirmation of what he says. Until someone else is able to access the study, we can't use it as a source. --Infophile 19:08, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Dana has made his COI known as far as editing his own article, but he is not disallowed from editing in areas where he has expertise. I would also point out that User:OffTheFence appears to be a single purpose account. —Whig (talk) 19:57, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

And what the heck is that meant to imply?OffTheFence (talk) 22:25, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

SPAs aren't uncommon for people who are relatively new. It's more of a concern when they've been around a while and still only edit a narrow range of articles. Example. As for the subject of his COI, yes it's good that he's made it known, and so we should take it into account when evaluating his evaluations of sources. We need a more neutral set of eyes to review the paper, rather than just trusting him. --Infophile 20:37, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

OffTheFence edits only one article and never provides any verifiable, reliable sources for anything he writes, nor will he agree to follow WP:DR. —Whig (talk) 22:46, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Never? Anything? So my citing in detail from the Linde paper doesn't count apparently or the Frass paper which also came up. Are you now accusing me of lying that I possess copies of these papers? How could I have quoted from them so accurately? Even Dana has not challenged the quotations and that is because they have been truthful and fair. Or are you just bothered that I didn't provide a full "reliable" "verifiable" source for a humorous and frequently used analogy about Aztecs? I have also patiently explained why would be an inappropriate tool for a matter that should be settled readily on a talk page provided both sides are prepared to cite accurately from the source material, which I have done and, with the Cazin paper now available, I will do again.OffTheFence (talk) 23:06, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

As near as I can tell, you have not introduced any verifiable, reliable sources to dispute information in the article. That is what I am saying. I do not doubt you honestly have copies of the papers we are discussing, and that confirms their verifiability unless you find their contents other than described. You seem to be willing to spend an inordinate amount of time arguing when you could simply ask on the appropriate noticeboard, or pursue other forms of WP:DR and get some feedback that would help sort things out. —Whig (talk) 02:28, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Whig, it seems I must remind you again (http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk%3AOffTheFence&diff=193451916&oldid=193303076) that I was discussing Linde on a Talk page, I was not trying to introduce the results of my analysis of Linde into the main article space. I have also explained that a study that is trivial and of poor quality will not generate "verifiable" and "reliable source" commentary on it. So, Yes, I have created OR (in wikipedia jargon) analysing Linde. I have restricted that OR to the Talk page. An inevitable consequence of the position you are adopting is that an unscrupulous editor could engineer the inclusion of bad information into the main Article space by ignoring the demonstrable poor quality of the information's poor quality and simply exploiting its ticking of Misplaced Pages's various boxes. You have given no valid argument to counter this proposition, which is a shame because it does cut to the heart of the collaborative competence of Misplaced Pages to deal with contentious, or just plain bad, science, but that is a subject for a larger debate. In the current narrow instance, I have directly quoted the content of Linde based on a close reading of the text. Dana has not challenged the quotations nor the questions that arose which would have led to a clarification of the issues. Yes, this might get settled in WP:DR, but that is using a sledgehammer to crack a nut that should be very small if editors act in good faith once a paper has been demonstrated to be of poor quality.OffTheFence (talk) 07:59, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Whig, please refrain from biting the newcomers, especially with regards to SPA issues. --Infophile 23:32, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I did not bite, I made a mention of the fact. —Whig (talk) 02:31, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Per Jehochman's request to see diffs of disruption, please see the following edits of DanaUllman: . These are the only edits Dana made to this section before OffTheFence's frustration resulted in caps (he also edited other sections of the page, but no answers there either. This is the most applicable area, though). He was repeatedly asked whether this study was randomized, and instead of answering, he mocked the need for randomization (see the second diff for the actual mocking). This particular instance of disruption is more telling in what isn't said, really (Dana's refusal to respond about the randomization), so a simple presentation of diffs can't really suffice, sorry. Some history perusal might be necessary to confirm that nowhere did he actual answer the question. --Infophile 19:19, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I think he made it clear he wasn't going to answer the question, so pestering him repeatedly accomplishes exactly nothing. There were a series of leading questions and a presumed conclusion that if the Cazin study was not randomized it must not be high quality even though we have a secondary source (Linde) which says it was high quality. Anyhow, if you don't agree with the use of these as reliable sources, you can ask on the appropriate noticeboard. —Whig (talk) 21:15, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I have now placed a report on both the Cazin and Linde papers on Ars Alb's Talk page. I would welcome comments.OffTheFence (talk) 08:07, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

disingenuous edit summary

The edit summary made by Levine2112 claimed: No recent discussion nor any consensus for any of this mass revert/change. There has been discussions. See serious NPOV issues (oh my). Levine2112 has not participated in the recent discussion and reverted a quality NPOV edit. --QuackGuru (talk) 00:32, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Anons

Should anons be adding editors to article probation and outing their supposed identities on that page? —Whig (talk) 17:49, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I guess I shouldn't be too surprised that this is here. Both of the editors in question (Martin & TheTutor) have edited homeopathy articles and are fair game for probation notification. The fact that TheTutor has edited 3 of the same articles that Martin edited before he left AND only since Martin's account went stale, is quite interesting. Also, they both edited a little known article ice VII that has only had 17 edits ever, 2 from Martin and 1 from TheTutor, plus Martin's own website is used as a reference for the article. Without a CU case, it can't be confirmed, but the circumstantial evidence is strong. Also, Fyslee has echoed the call for a CU case, so it is not just anons that are concerned about this. It may not be abusive sockpuppetry, but returning after having your page wiped simply to continue in the same path is not the way things work. Baegis (talk) 19:03, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Please do not bring your hypotheses here. —Whig (talk) 19:06, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I am merely giving a back story to your post, one which is extremely relevent to the post. There are two sides to every story and someone has to actually give the other side, since it appears you made no effort to explain anything further. Baegis (talk) 19:10, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

This is an incidents page, not a place for suppositions and outing people. It would be nice to know who the anon was, however. —Whig (talk) 19:13, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I certainly feel that I have been unfairly treated by editors who should know better and by editors who should be known better. The Tutor (talk) 08:40, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Possibly disruptive probation warning removal

FYI, "I don't see 'Homeopath-" anything in the *text* of either Chiropractic, or Sci Inv of Chiropractic; remove Homeo- warning, its cont'd abuse seems to me to be, POV, initimidation & provocation". Lawrence § t/e 07:13, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

For reference, the warning was originally added by QuackGuru here, and was followed with a short edit war over it. His justification for adding it was that it was "related" (as in, that was literally the only word he used in his summaries during the edit war). --Infophile 16:02, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I an not an editor involved with chiropractic or homeopathy. Adding such an aggressive expansion shopping of a POV on edits should be considered disruption and bad faith of an all too common ill-informed, -ing anti-scientific POV (I mean that quite literally - rejection of science & its methodology in practice with concrete examples, all while loudly claiming (falsely) its mantle) into an unrelated topic. I do not edit the homeopathy or chiropractic articles - I simply see this as a disruptive extension of disputive POV pushing with clear features of initimidation, provocation and unfairness into an unrelated topic that needs to stop. Such "policy" intrepretations remind me all too much of 3rd world countries that claim a rule of law and wonder why they have negative growth and such a bad reputation.--I'clast (talk) 18:17, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

The chiropractic articles have been a battleground between various factions in the past. The probation endorses neither side of any dispute, nor favors them; it simply announaces that anyone causing trouble from either side aggressively may be aggressively sanctioned for it, faster than normal, to keep the peace. Lawrence § t/e 18:22, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

True that may be, but it has nothing to do with the homeopathy probation. If this is a problem, perhaps we should put a separate probation on chiropractic-related articles, or officially expand this one. --Infophile 18:33, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to note your comment, Lawrence, that "Involved editors do not decide what is or is not under probation." By this logic, QuackGuru shouldn't have been able to unilaterally decide that this article is under probation when he added the template. Then he later argued that no involved editor was allowed to remove it (though one can add it, apparently). I see two possibilities here:

1. We remove the probation notice and be done with it.
2. We act under its purview and investigate the behavior of those fighting over it. They want this article to be under probation? Then their actions with regards to it need to meet a higher standard. --Infophile 18:30, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

• There are problems related to chiropractic articles. The main editors are chiropractors. They have claimed ownership of the chiropractic article.
• 1st revert:
• 2nd revert:
• 3rd revert:
• 4th revert:
• 5th revert:
• 6th revert:
• Diff of 1st 3RR warning: 17:25, 8 February 2008
• Diff of 2nd 3RR warning: 18:44, 5 March 2008
• EBDCM has confirmed he is the 208 anon but has denied he has another registered account.
• The Talk:Chiropractic article is under homeopathy probation and the editor was previously notified.
• The talk page is a warzone of numerous posts and wikilawyering. Regards, QuackGuru (talk) 18:42, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

No argument that there's a problem with behavior on Chiropractic articles as well. Perhaps this warrants its own probation. I think I'll raise this on WP:AN. --Infophile 18:47, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Thread up, see here. --Infophile 18:52, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

There is an argument with behaviour problems at the chiropractic article. I explained it above and read the talk page of the chiropractic article to draw your own conclusions. QuackGuru (talk) 18:54, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

No one is denying there's a problem on the chiropractic related articles. The question is the inappropriateness of using the homeopathy probation. There is no spillover from the homeopathy discussions on the chiropractic talk pages. If there were, that would be another matter, but there isn't, so that probation doesn't apply. -- Fyslee / talk 19:53, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Fine, then Chiropractic related articles should be under a Chiropractic probation warning, not the infectious censorship of a POV warrior repeatedly blocked for warring & disruption despite great administrative forebearance, projected to an unrelated topic.

There's no substitute for an honest "rule of law" here and confuting "homeo-" problems with "chiro-" problems by fiat of a POV disruptive editor is highly inappropriate. Do the proper process, use appropriate wording. This way of backdoor POV pushing policy and intimidation is an abomination and rewards very aggressive behavior that reeks of bad faith, bad wording and bad policy.--I'clast (talk) 20:09, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:I%27clast&curid=6068226&diff=196384643&oldid=196373503 This comment by I'clast is uncivil and disruptive. QuackGuru (talk) 22:02, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Far from it. Stop poking him. Just stay the f*** away from him. You need to learn when to leave people alone. If they object to your presence, show some common decency and respect their wishes. -- Fyslee / talk 22:22, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

This comment above was also uncivil. I gave I'clast a notification and then I'clast made an uncivil remark. I did the right thing by reporting it here. QuackGuru (talk) 22:28, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Request for Sanction

• Area69 repeatedly starting new discussions pushing for a POV tag on the main Homeopathy article is tendetious.
• Whig's talk page behavior of discussing in circles is also tendetious.

These need to stop, it's what probation is about. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Could you provide a handful of egregious diffs to substantiate this? Jehochman 12:44, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Here's a particularly egregious one: . Accusing others of getting repetitive in correcting his misconception (which he kept repeating), and then saying that others should be going to the noticeboard, when he's the one who thinks OR is going on here. I'll see if I can dig up some others to show a pattern. --Infophile 18:58, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

That's an egregious example of what? First I'm accused of "discussing in circles" and when I tell someone to stop discussing in circles, you accuse me of something wrong? —Whig (talk) 19:37, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Whig has an extensive history of disruption on homeopathy-related talk pages. I will restrict the following collection of diffs to those posted in the four days, in the interest of freshness, but please realize that this behavior has gone on for months.

• Demanding good faith of editors, while refusing to extend good faith in return:
• Meatpuppetry:
• Wikilawyering:
• Personal attacks:
• Canvassing:
• Arbcom threats:
• Other disciplinary threats:
• Harassing admins who are trying to mediate the situation:
• Schadenfreude over the Matt Hoffman arbcom:

This needs to stop. This behavior is poisoning good faith attempts by both pro- and anti-factions to improve coverage of homeopathic topics on Misplaced Pages. Whig has been the subject of two recent user conduct RFCs (here and here), which have had no effect in changing his tendentious and needlessly argumentative approach. I recommend a broadly defined topic ban (if not a full siteban) that covers all articles and talk pages related to homeopathy, as well as any user page/AN/ANI discussions related to homeopathy. Skinwalker (talk) 21:14, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Allowing me to add in some, relating to the discussion at Talk:Homeopathy about the swimming pool example (covering Talk:Homeopathy#Problem_with_swimming_pool_example and Talk:Homeopathy#Swimming_pool_nonsense, which is what I believe prompted Schmucky's claims of him arguing in circles. A few of Skinwalkers diffs provided above may overlap here, but I'm going to put them in a bit of a different context.

• Demands for a reliable source to an illustrative example:
  • Blatant refusal to demonstrate good faith and take the trivial step of examining Google search results (which I even bothered to link for him) to see that this analogy is commonly used:
  • An implicit admission that no source would be good enough for him anyways:

I'll acknowledge that as of writing this, Filll hasn't provided any specific source. He's explained that he's simply trying to decide which is best. My guess is that he doesn't want Whig to engage in a game of moving the goalposts, and so is trying to figure out which one minimizes this possibility (which speaks of how his behavior is affecting others). However, as I pointed out above, Whig has all but admitted that no source would be good enough for him. --Infophile 22:30, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Please also see Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard#Proposed_short_topic_ban_for_Whig, where I crossposted my diff collection after his latest round of tendentiousness. Info, I concur with your assessment of the "swimming pool" situation. Skinwalker (talk) 22:36, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

It is clear that many of these postings were to editors that were not AGF, including several that have been harassing me. This has the appearance of a cabal's game. The Tutor (talk) 22:49, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I have some more diffs that I am supplying to reinforce things that were already touched on by other editors.

• More Disciplinary threats: ,
• Harrasing Admins: ,
• Personal Attacks: ,
• Meatpuppetry: , , , support for Dana's site to be used as an RS, same as prior, ,
• Demanding good faith: , , ,
• Demands for reliable source, with implications that none will do when asking about a questionable source: , ,

In what will surely be claimed as a personal vendetta, the one of the problems that I see with Whig is that he knows the rules well enough to walk the line but never get caught with his hand in the cookie jar. Is that really the kind of editor we need? His mentor has been MIA for a long period of time, leaving him free to edit without having to abide by his restrictions. As we saw from the DanaUllman case, a good mentor should always be watching in order to correct bad behavior. Dana's mentor stepped in on several occasions to apply restrictions and weigh in on issues regarding the mentee. But, the biggest problem is Whig's penchant for being a willing meat puppet for other pro-homeopathy users. While my diff's will never be able to show the totality of the previous statement, they do show that he constantly backs up edits from , TheTutor (Tutor diffs from previous people), and Dana. As seen on this section of the Arsenicum album talk page, a question is asked to Dana and then after a response from Dana, Whig answers all further questions, drastically steering the conversation off course. This is not the only case of this happening, as seen from the mess involving TheTutor. Though Whig has been around a lot longer than the parties I describe, his actions in conjunction with them are problematic. He even backed up a comment from Dana in which he, in a round about way, called someones mental capacity into question, saying it was funny. Maybe it's because and Dana are both well known outside of the Wiki world and it is a case of coattails. Who knows? The point is, Whig constantly violated the terms of his probation and should be held accountable. Baegis (talk) 02:16, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

The business about the swimming pool would be enough to drive anyone to distraction and just remove this article from their watchlist and let it flounder.

• We do not need to have a RS for this example. I posted the WP policies which show we do not need a source for it.
• Plenty of sources exist and a few diffs pointing to sources have already been provided.
• This example, or something similar, is used by both sides of the debate for illustrative purposes. Even Hahnemann himself used a similar example, as Peter Morrell pointed out!!

This example is just being used by Whig and Anthon01 and other homeopathy proponents as an excuse to threaten and fight ad nauseum. Rather than even look at a google search or the sources already linked, they would prefer to engage in tendentitious and disruptive argumentation and spamming of the talk page with nonsense. This must stop right now and I ask an admin to warn those involved.--Filll (talk) 14:54, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

POV tag

If several editors asked for a POV tag since they argue that the article does not comply with the NOPV policy the administrators should add it or not, according to wikirules? I might make a mistake - I asked again and nonoone answered. s Please comment. I hope this is the right place to post this question.--Area69 (talk) 20:46, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone still pay attention to this?

If so, please pop on over to the Arsenicum album page and lend a hand. An editor, one who has been warned about the probation for these articles, is insisting on this being a better version than the way I had it previously, even though it is the EXACT same phrase just ordered differently. It is more appropriate to present the results of the study THEN discuss the problems. I'm pretty sure few will find a problem with that. On the talk page, Dana claims I need to verify the same facts that another editor discussed at length (see rest of talk page) with him before he will "allow" my edit to stick. He has reverted it 3 times so far today, clearly in violation of the spirit of the probation. I have cautioned him about the 3RR rule. I have also reverted it twice, so I will accept any punishment for violating the probation. Baegis (talk) 03:57, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi Baegis, I've banned Dana for 7 days. Addhoc (talk) 12:53, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Just to note, but I'm guessing the problem Dana has with the other version isn't the order, but the fact that it specifically points out that the "high quality" trials generally weren't blinded or randomized. Meanwhile, his preferred version just said this with regards to the studies in the meta-analysis as a whole... leaving open the possibility that the high-quality studies were blinded and/or randomized. It doesn't excuse edit warring over it, but it should help to better understand his position when he gets back and if he chooses to start this up again. --Infophile 15:50, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the prompt response, Addhoc. And I am working on way to better the whole situation on that article. Feel free to pop on over, Infophile. I know you enjoy these articles as much as I do. =). We could use another editor with great experience. Baegis (talk) 19:09, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for wasting everyone's time...

I just indefinitely blocked Ramaanand (talk · contribs) & added that account to Category:Suspected Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of Dr.Jhingaadey. It was painfully obvious that this last chance effort to reform the editor was going to fail, especially when the editor revealed that he was "not even willing to be an editor here" and was simply aiming to argue & edit war over the inclusion of homeopathy criticisms.

If any admin feels that my reasons for blocking were inappropriate or insufficient, please feel free to contact me. If nobody objects, I'd say that WP:BAN is back in full effect for this editor. — Scientizzle 14:18, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Uninvolved administrator?

Addhoc hi. You are not an uninvolved administrator. You should really be editing the article as you have done:

--70.107.246.88 (talk) 17:39, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

He can edit it. And apparently, he's agreeing with your request that he "should really be editing". So, I guess there's no problem here. OrangeMarlin 18:21, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

He should not be able to ban the same time though. Correct? I thought that was the idea. --70.107.246.88 (talk) 18:29, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Personally I think that rule is counterproductive. I think that involved editors should be allowed to use their tools, but that their decisions should be subject to careful review andn vetting and certification by others to prevent abuse.--Filll (talk) 18:42, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

The problem with this discussion is that the administrators themselves are not able to comply with the minimum of rules which they decided to apply or to enforce. --70.107.246.88 (talk) 18:45, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

If you feel strongly that you have a case (which I do not think you do) and you are not able to get a reasonable response from Addhoc, then you can try AN/I or Arbcomm. However, I think the best option might be to change those silly rules you are citing to something more useful and productive.--Filll (talk) 18:50, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

You are right Filll. I dont feel strongly about it -It could be unfair for him - he just could not hide his POV which is entitled to hold.

There are worse examples in this forum.The way the discussion is administrated led to this situation. So fine. Addhoc please consider removing Dana's ban symbolically and edit the article. Nothing personal here.--70.107.246.88 (talk) 18:59, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Anon, you are already subject to a one month ban from all homeopathy articles, per your talk page. You might want to step back from calling for the revocation of an editor's topic ban, especially since this could be construed as editing a homeopathy related article. Take it up with Addhoc on his talk page. Other than that, there is little else to say about the topic. Baegis (talk) 19:09, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

It is important to acknowledge that Jehochman imposed a topic ban on 70.107.246.88, though even the wonderfully civil Peter Morrell questioned what is the problem was. It seems that both Jehochman and Addhoc are both active editors in articles on homeopathy, and they are imposing penalties when it may be inappropriate to do so. As is noted above, Addhoc imposed a 7-day block on me for "low level edit warring," when I was simply asking editors to verify a specific statement, which was never verified, and for which I sought this information in my edit summaries and on the Talk page. I thought I was being one of the good guys and honoring basic wiki policies on reliability. DanaUllman 19:23, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Please show diffs indicating that I have been editing the homeopathy article. I don't think I ever have, except maybe to repair obvious policy violations. The appearance is that you don't like being sanctioned, therefore, you are lashing out at the administrators who are trying to resolve a very difficult situation. Thanks for that. Jehochman 20:01, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

My apologies to Jehochman and Addhoc! I'm wrong. Jehochman has not edited the article on homeopathy, except for very minor grammar/formating issues. I mixed up his active participation in the Talk pages (at least 40 contributions in February, for instance). I also wish to withdraw my statement about Addhoc who has participated a bit more on the homeopathy article and on the Talk page, but not to a significant degree. Although I do not agree with Addhoc's decision on me, I will live with it. I will also say that I am quite impressed with the breadth of both of these admins and their varied contributions to wikipedia. I'm humbled. DanaUllman 22:14, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

pushing articles on talk pages

See this comment of mine and answers. It would appear that Dana presented a 1994 study on Talk:Arsenicum album, where it was shooted down for several reasons. Because of an initial confusion, some editors talked instead about the 1997 article by same author, and shooted it down too.

Now, Dana has presented the 1997 article on Talk:Homeopathy and has not warned that it was previously dismissed elsewhere, or that a 1994 article by same author had been discussed and dismissed elsewhere. It wasn't until some editor remembered having discussed the article before that it surfaced. This has the appeareance of article pushing and talk-page shopping --Enric Naval (talk) 23:12, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not convinced this is serious enough to be sanction worthy. Obviously, I hope that Dana recognizes that if the consensus is to reject a proposal, then it would be appropriate to wait a while, perhaps 2-3 months, before re-proposing a similar idea. But provided this faux pas doesn't continuously re-occur, I'm not convinced that sanctions should be applied, especially considering the recent 1 week ban. PhilKnight (talk) 23:56, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Agree, but the incident must be noted and the behaviour cut here before it has the chance to get worse and actually deserve a sanction --Enric Naval (talk) 00:50, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok, that's fine - duly noted. PhilKnight (talk) 01:13, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Adenda: Dana Ullman and LaraLove have been notified on their talk pages --Enric Naval (talk) 23:44, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Unless I'm mistaken, LaraLove is no longer his mentor. PhilKnight (talk) 23:50, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Dunno. I just made a feeble attempt to notify some admins currently involved on this probation. No idea if the notification is even actually needed because I didn't follow the probation --Enric Naval (talk) 00:50, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Enric, because you're a newbie to homeopathic articles, I hope that you try to AGF before you make accusations. Simply asking me first would have been a good place to begin. First, in the Arsenicum article, we were talking about the 1994 meta-analysis by Linde (I intially described it as the 1995 meta-analysis, but there was a lot of discussion there that clarified it as distinct from the 1997 meta-analysis). That said, there was consensus that the 1994 meta-analysis was worthy of inclusion. I will comment on the 1997 Linde meta-analysis at the homeopathy talk page. As for probation, that is long-gone. Once again, you can look at my talk page or simply ask me before rushing off elsewhere. And PhilKnight is correct, LaraLove is no longer my mentor because I "graduated" under her good tutelage. Enric, I ask you to be a gentleman and apologize to me and to LaraLove (for bothering her). DanaUllman 00:54, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but at this point I think that you have already been warned enough times about edits on homepathy articles. This needed to be looked at by an involved admin, even if to only confirm that it's not a breach and that I'm overreacting so we can continue discussing the study with no problem. I will apologize to Lara, however. --Enric Naval (talk) 02:39, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

To clarify, the articles are under probation, so the editors of the articles who have been notified are subject to probation, and this includes Dana. PhilKnight (talk) 01:16, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah Phil, and this includes everyone (I'm not yet clear why you chose to single me out). The bottomline here is the Enric has his history mixed up, not just about me, but also about the different Linde meta-analyses, and about the Arsenicum article which rightfully includes reference to the Linde 1994 work. I assume good faith and realize that it is challenging to keep all of this info straight, but this is why one should check-in with the potentially offending party before bothering admins or noticeboards. Is this reasonable? DanaUllman 02:42, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Dana, remember good faith :) Phil is mentioning your name just because the incident is about you, and he was clearing whether you were in probation. From context, I can't see any singling out from Phil. As for singling out from me, if any other editor had done the same thing as you and I had seen it, and he had the same history of probation as you, I would have done the same procedure of notifying without waiting for explanations. --Enric Naval (talk) 03:17, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, his history is pretty accurate as described in the first post, at least with regards to the 1997 work. The initial confusion over which article you were talking about led to this one being discussed as well, and it was even more firmly rejected than the 1994 article, particularly as the authors themselves renounced it. You heard all these arguments, and your only reply to them was to note that you were talking about a different paper, as evidenced by this comment. It's therefore fair to assume that you were well aware of the problems regarding this study, particularly those pointed out by its own authors. And yet you come to Talk:Homeopathy mentioning none of them. --Infophile 03:05, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I appropriately avoided discussion of the 1997 meta-analysis because THAT was not the focus on the discussion in . For a more detailed defense of the 1997 meta-analysis, see . For the record, if and whenever I accuse someone of wrongdoing, I will immediately apologize if I am proven wrong. This ethic seems to be one difference between Enric and I, though it is never too late to acknowledge error. DanaUllman 04:24, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Dana.... I know that you might be a bit fired up because of this discussion, but do you really think that this edit is wise? No consensus at talk page, deleting the attribution of one source suspected of POV, and past probation problems with same problems. I restored the words , I suggest that you achieve more consensus at talk page, and that you don't perform the actual edit yourself (just in case), lest we need to open to open another section here --Enric Naval (talk) 05:03, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Maybe you can respond to my query as to why you and other select editors feel that only homeopathic drug research should list the source of funding. Please explain this one. Thanx. DanaUllman 05:29, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

And this edit... on Water memory it looked quite inofensive to me, and looks like based on consensus on the talk page.... and then I looked it up on google and found that it's *also* founded by Boiron , and the source of funding is not mentioned despite the more than probable POV, not even on the reference itself, I'm not even asking to mention it on the text itself. Indeed, Boiron already appears on the text, pointed by Maddox as employing two researchers that cherished delusions and as a result got results supporting water memory on a study, the results were totally wrong (ooops). The actual edit looks fine so I'm not reverting it, but seriously, do you work for Boiron, or is it that they are the only ones publishing articles that support efficency of homeopathy? Seriously, stop editing until this issue gets looked at by some admin --Enric Naval (talk) 05:44, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

P.D.: Dana, it's because homeopathy studies seems to be heavily biased depending on who funds tehm, and this forces us to mention the founding source and make attributions because of POV problems --Enric Naval (talk) 05:46, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

In due respect Enric, this is not your decision to make. There is no reference in the article on homeopathy about the funder for each study. Further, there might be even larger reasons for Wiki-editors to make reference to the funding for every Rx drug due to the significant financial benefits that drug companies make, and yet, there is no wiki policy for doing that for every study. Let's maintain NPOV. DanaUllman 00:04, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but Misplaced Pages is free content that anyone may edit. I think I qualify as anyone, and I can push for a change of policy for homeopathic studies if I consider so --Enric Naval (talk) 00:57, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

gross WP:COI on pushing of another shooted down study

enric's report

Dana is pushing Enni's studies again on April 3 2008 (notice the veiled POV accusation on the edit summary to any editor ever opposing Ennis' study). Dana says that the study was replicated by 4 independient labs and asks for sources on four laboratories saying they couldn't replicate it.

However the lack of replication by "four experts from reputable laboratories" is explained at this userspace draft of homeopathy while (it can't get more ironical) dismounting an argument on a book written by Dana. In Dana's defence, there is no evidence that he was aware of this text. Moreover, links below prove that he knew about BBC's replication and has been off-wiki objecting actively to how it was presented and other stuff. Dunno if Dana has ever disclosed this this COI.

He also has *huge* WP:COI because he appears to have written a book where he defended Ennis' study, and is perfectly aware of BBC program, since he sent a complaint letter to ABC and Dana received a mail from Ennis himself on the matter on 2003.

Then I searched Ennis on talk pages and found this Dana's comment from January 26 2008 where he gets answered "Dana, why do you keep repeating this same arguments when it's been explained to you that they aren't valid on other pages?" Talk:Arsenicum_album#Defies_logic I was like "wtf"? So I digged through Homeopathy archives and found nothing except passing mentions to Ennis here, but a search on google turned out a discussion with Maury Markowitz on January 1 2008 User_talk:Maury_Markowitz#BBC.27s_and_ABC.27s_20.2F20_Homeopathy_Test_was_Junk_Science and a discussion with Otheus on February 1 2008 at User_talk:Otheus.

I also finally found the archives of Water memory talk March 4 2007 - June 5 2007 Talk:Water_memory/Archive1#Ennis_email_incorrectly_attributed, December 18 2007 - February 4 2008 ] and February 1-2 2008 Talk:Water_memory/Archive1#Pseudoscience_Info_box where Ennis study is shot down, and Dana is perfectly aware of the conversation since he adds himself in the middle of other user comment (probably due to unexperience and unawareness of WP:TALK) on August 9 2007 .

So, gross probation violation, and probable gross WP:COI violation, and gross WP:NPOV violation for pushing POV studies without mentioning that they had been shot down by consensus and evidence (see above incident for same problem), and using edit summaries unadequately again --Enric Naval (talk) 14:51, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

By the way, Dana is also misrepresening the study - at least 1 (probably 2 given the statistical test used which claimed .01 as the cutoff) failed to find any effect. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 15:58, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, checking the talk pages, it looks like Dana has a history of misrepresenting studies. I'm going to compile what I can find into a subsection below. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 17:01, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I don’t know if I should be amused or confused by Enric’s above accusations. He asserts that I have a “huge COI” because I wrote a book that has “defended Ennis’ study.” I hope and assume that WP editors can write books (and articles) and then transfer their expertise to wikipedia (let’s bless expertise, but sadly, in THIS circumstance, it seems that Enric is lacking in expertise, and he is confusing other’s incorrect assertions with the truth or with RS evidence). Because evaluating research is often intellectually challenging, I assume good faith and assume that he’s making a good faith effort to understand things, though he simply hasn’t been either accurate or adequately informed. Let me explain… First, there is a big difference between FOUR university laboratories performing a study with 2,706 validated datapoints and having their results published in a peer-review journal as compared with a “tv science experiment” that performed one experiment (with four on-lookers!) and that was never published anywhere. To Enric’s credit, he links his accusations to one of writings in which I verify that the BBC’s “study” was not a replication of Ennis’ work , and Ernic also links to Ennis’ email to me that verifies this . Therefore, Ernic’s assertion that Ennis’ work was disproven is inaccurate. (Also, for the record, Enric, “Madeleine Ennis” is not a man…and she is a professor in the dept of clinical biochemistry at Queen’s University). Enric seems to be a relative newbie to WP, and he seems to have not noticed that the Ennis research is already (!) referenced in the memory of water article, and at present, the primary content conflict is whether to say that the four laboratories found “an effect” or found a “statistically significant effect”. Please note that I erred when I recently wrote that the P value=0.001; in actual fact, it was P=0.0001. In the light of these issues, it seems that Enric’s accusations of me being a POV-pusher may now suggest that “he doth protest too much” and the pushing seems to be on the other side. For the record, I have no problem with Enric’s references to any of his links, though his reference to a user-page’s writing is so full of misinformation that it is not worthy of comment. DanaUllman 18:00, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

This is grandstanding obfuscation on the part of Dana Ullman. Please block this disruptive editor. ScienceApologist (talk) 18:47, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Same here. Dana's statements are smoke and mirrors and only address a related side issue that doesn't ever appear on my report. Dana shows no understanding or willingness to understand what he did wrong My mistake, I can't read Dana's mind and I can't provide any diffs either backing this striken statement. My statement was excessive and uncalled for. I'll try to be less agressive next time --Enric Naval (talk) 19:10, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Misrepresentation of studies by User:DanaUllman

Talk:Water memory

• Implies that all four labs in the Ennis study found an effect (they did not, as discussed above)

• Claims that Benveniste's study was double-blinded, when it was not, with a dose of Nature supposedly conspiring against Benveniste

• Baegis on DanaUllman's hyping up of positive studies: "I am getting fed up with you claiming that every single journal that has ever published an article that supports your views on homeopathy is somehow a highly respected journal and worthy of inclusion."

• DanaUllman, on the journal Homeopathy "I wish to assume good faith, but I also have a sneaking suspicion that some (maybe many) of the above editors are neither subscribers or readers of this journal. This is a peer-review journal, and its editorial board includes an international group of physicians, scientists, professors, and even skeptics (Ernst, amongst others). This journal is not fringe. It may be consider "cutting edge" of medicine and pharmacology. DanaUllman 05:32, 13 March 2008 (UTC)" Likewise, here: This is a peer-review journal, and even a recent article published in NATURE considered providing a review of the July 2007 issue for which Martin Chaplin served as the guest editor. There is RS 3rd party recognition of this issue, confirming that this issue and this journal is notable. Here's what the article in Nature that Dana references actually has to say: The volume is, in other words, a cabinet of curiosities. There is rarely even a token effort to explain the relevance of these experiments to the supposed workings of homeopathy, with its archaic rituals of shaking (‘succussion’) and ‘magic-number’ dilutions... The procedures and protocols on display here are often unusual if not bizarre, because it seems the one thing you must not do on any account is the simplest experiment that would probe any alleged ‘memory’ effect: to look for the persistent activity of a single, well-defined agent in a simple reaction – say an enzyme or an inorganic catalyst – as dilution clears the solution of any active ingredient. If that sounds bad, it is nothing compared with the level of theoretical discussion... the ‘explanations’ on offer seem either to consider that water physics can be reinvented from scratch by replacing decades of careful research with wishful thinking, or they call on impurities to perform the kind of miraculous feats of biomolecular mimicry and replication that chemists have been striving to achieve for many years. Notable, perhaps. Reliable source? Hell no. Fringe: Yes.

• research by Elia: Summary: Pretty much works out to "This author is really great. We MUST use his research to say that the Water memory effect has been proven. Baegis' response will summarise this very, very long thread ...After the debacle over at the Arsenicum album article, where you wouldn't even answer any questions about a study that you insisted on including even though you were the only one with a copy of the article for an extended period of time, articles that only you possess are not going to pass the merit for inclusion. Also, letters to the editor from a notably fringe journal do not constitute any important information for the article.... Since you appear to be the one who understands how "these long-term changes in water have been confirmed using well-established physicochemical techniques, including flux calorimetry, conductometry, pHmetry and galvanic cell electrodes potential", you should explain them for the rest of us who obviously do not share your level of scholarly aptitude. Specifically, how these well-established methods are carried out and why this groundbreaking work has not seen a wider audience.

Talk:Arsenicum album

At the top of the talk page as it currently stands, we find this comment from DanaUllman: This article is another piece of evidence that many of the anti-homeopathy editors assert that there is "no scientific research" on this or that subject within homeopathy, and yet, either these editors are purposefully ignoring the body of basic science evidence and clinical research or they are choosing to not look and simply asserting that there is no research (when you don't look for something, it is indeed hard to find it). What is also so interesting is the degree of self-justification that goes on in the homeopathy-bashing and the unapologetic tendencies for either ignoring or attacking homeopathic research. "How convenient" is all I have to say about the lack of references to the scientific literature at this article, especially when there is a reasonable body of basic science work (testing homeopathic doses of this medicine) and clinical trials too.

• Ullman: The below statement was deleted without comment. This is a RS (the journal is now called "Human Toxicology" and is highly respected in the field)... ... The reference to the "mechanism of action" has no place here. This article should emphasize what is known, not necessarily what is unknown (if we were to say what we don't know about something, then most of each article would discuss the various things we don't know. Further, this is an article about Arsenicum album, not the entire field of homeopathy. The reference #3, #6, and #7 and the partial sentence connected to it have no place here... "Here's what is presently written with my recommended changes (I suggest that we add the above study after reference #5): Some small, preliminary studies claim an effect for arsenicum album; however, these are not widely accepted within the scientific community, as there is no known mechanism by which such highly-diluted substances could work, and large scale scientific studies say that any perceived medicinal effects of homeopathy are almost certainly due to the placebo effect. and such causing problems] In other words, he uses a talked-up fringe journal to say that the mainstream view should be deleted outright. As pointed out at the time: I'm sorry, but WP:Undue weight and WP:NPOV/FAQ#Pseudoscience, among other things, says we cannot delete the mainstream view. No large-scale trials of the remedy itself have been done. However, there is strong consensus on homeopathy as a whole, and we can't weight small trials, at least one of which i s self-described as a pilot study, over large-scale analyses of the purported mechanism by which they would work." and "Also, the study you advocate is from an obscure journal that is not available online, is not pubmed indexed, and which only gets 7 google hits: Calling this a "major study" being unfairly ignored is hyperbole of the most excessive sort." (Link to diff truncated to the first few words of the diff to allow link in ref to be displayed correctly.)

• Hesperian on Ullman: "You've ignored the findings of Linde et al, and instead reported the bits of data that suit your point of view."

• DanaUllman: Homeopathic Clinical Trials Are a Higher Quality Than Conventional Medical Studies (Lancet, 2005) (section title) Orangemarlin: to quote the Lancet article, the conclude "When account was taken for these biases in the analysis, there was weak evidence for a specific effect of homoeopathic remedies, but strong evidence for specific effects of conventional interventions. This finding is compatible with the notion that the clinical effects of homoeopathy are placebo effects.

• (This link includes the previous, I can't avoid that and keep the conversation): Ullman: The reasons that the Cazin (1987) study is notable is that it was published in one of the leading journals in toxicology. It was conducted at a major French university and department of pharmacology. It showed a statistically significant result. It was referenced by a major meta-analysis (Linde, et al 1994) and described as a "high quality trial." It has had several replications that have confirms its results. It has V, RS, and 3rd party confirmation...it has them all. At this point, it is your responsibility to assert why it should not be in there. The discussion points out that no journal of that name is listed in Thomson Scientific's Journal Citation Report, and the one with the nearest name is very low down on the ranking.

Summary

The thing that really strikes you when you look at these pages in full is that it's hard to find onee thing on them written by DanaUllman that is not quickly demonstrated to be exaggerated and/or falsified. I'd encourage others to check other pages, but the pattern is clear: Dana Ullman regularly and consistently misrepresents his sources, and tries to claim that sources that support his POV are in top journals in their fields, sources of unquestionable accuracy, which must be included, and which thoroughly disprove those nasty negative references which should be deleted. That is not an exaggeration. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 17:01, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

It is important to note that the editors above who are making accusations against me have not responded in a substantative way to my above response, and instead, they just claim that I am using "smoke and mirrors." We all need to be wary of people with whom an editor is having a content dispute who then makes inflated accusations. For instance, when I first mentioned a toxicology journal, I didn't write its name accurately, though that was corrected shortly. This minor error needs to be filed under "no big deal." The above editors are simply attacking me for the substance that I provide, especially since I work and sometime get consensus. If and when an admin or a respected uninvolved editor makes accusations, I will respond to them with substance. Until then, talk amongst yourselves. In the meantime, I think someone needs to chastise some of the above editors for making mountains out of molehills. Really...or to quote someone "that is not an exaggeration." DanaUllman 20:37, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Mr. Ullman, one would think that perhaps you might want to respond to the numerous diffs and evidence provided, rather than using a complaint about Enric - who, you may not have noticed, is not me - to dismiss all accusations against you. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 20:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I tweaked the headers a bit, to separate better the two reports and avoid answering down here when intending to reply to my report. Dana is avoiding again addressing the evidence and talking again about unrelated stuff and making again veiled accusations against neutrality of other editors in desagreement with him --Enric Naval (talk) 21:10, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

"Dana Ullman regularly and consistently misrepresents his sources". I have a problem with Shoemaker's above-noted "universal" statement. While I can't pretend to understand meta-analyses, I do know homeopathy works. Many of us use Dana's books for references as they are in libraries across the world and his books have often been one of our first introductions to homeopathy over the past 25+ years. By characterizing him as "misrepresent"ing his sources - it seems you are more concerned with attacking his reputation than refuting his claims or the claims of homeopathic remedies in general, which is -- after all -- the general thrust and intention of the article. My question then is: why? How does the practice of homeopathy offend you? And why the supreme effort to denounce its efficacy? Patients do not die taking homeopathy remedies and unlike therapeutic meds from big pharma, it's safe. Your motives are more than questionnable. --Flagtheerror (talk) 20:59, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

It's his reputation as editor on wikipedia that is at doubt. He can have a perfectly good reputation outside at wikipedia and make perfectly good out there, yet having lots of trouble being an editor at wikipedia, because wikipedia's rules are not the same as the ones on the real world. We all feel like a fish out of the water and make lots of mistakes when taken out of our usual context and brought somewhere with rules unsual and illogical for us. I suspect this is what happens with Dana. Also, personally, I don't care about his reputation writing books, but his reputation on editing wikipedia articles concerns me a lot --Enric Naval (talk) 21:10, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

You don't have a problem with others making sweeping generalizations about him "misrepresenting" sources when there is no proof of his doing so? How fair is that? What in heaven's name would be his MO for doing so? But by continuing this push to continually chastise, criticize and denounce his claims, well, one tends to wonder why. Don't you think any of his book editors properly sourced his references in the past? He wouldn't have much credibility if he did what you and others claim, in the publishing world - now would he? --Flagtheerror (talk) 21:40, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

It's also important to note that the editor who is defending Dana here is obviously just a fanboy. Take a look at his contribs and then reread his statement. It's all very interesting that he comes back after a 4 month absense to say his piece here. Baegis (talk) 21:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)