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deleted link

I have deleted link to http://bendery.ru.ru/, because this is only self-advertisement. That site doesn't contain any useful information. It has abusive lexicon and tries to insult russian users. Zserghei 21:00, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

You know, dear offended Russian Zserghei, Bendery is not a place for Russian users ;) there is nothing to see for them ;) Site http://bendery.ru.ru/ shows inside picture of Russian occupied Transnistria. There is a very interesting video material about Stalinist regime in Transnistria. Also there is a very nice picture of me :)

EvilAlex 172.201.186.169 16:34, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Dear Alex, encyclopedia is not a place neither for self-promotion nor for insults. --Zserghei 18:31, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Ancient settlement

The following piece removed:

"A settlement has existed at the confluence of the Dniester and Bîc rivers since the 2nd century, subsequently growing and coming under the successive rules of Kiev, Moldavia, Genoa, Turkey, Russia and Romania. "

It contradicts, e.g. Russian wikiarticle and not confirmed in other language versions. mikka (t) 03:36, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Moldovan Cyrillic: Тигина

Who cares about Moldovan Cyrillic? The official language is Romanian. Romanian is written in Latin alphabet. Moldovan is written in Latin alfabet. According to the law it is forbidden to write in other way. Bonaparte talk 07:41, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Not according to the government which makes the laws of Tighina. That's not the government of Rep Moldova, but rather the gov't of the Pridniestrovian Moldavian Republic. They are the ones who are in real control. Maybe Rep Moldova "owns" it, but they don't have control over it. --Node 11:25, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually according to the 1992 treaty the city has a special status (the same status is enjoyed officially by Dubasari city) and both RM and PMR have the right to keep their respective authorities there (under an over-all Russian "peacekeeping force of course").

Another point I wanted to bring up is the latest census. Does anyone actually have a ref. for that?Constantzeanu 05:01, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

I have access to the 2004 census data. What would you like me to add into this article? - Mauco 23:05, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Petro Poroshenko

As far as I know he was born in Bolhrad, Odessa oblast.--AndriyK 21:50, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

That's what the German wikipedia article on him says. bogdan 21:52, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Name

I propose using either the official name which the city itself currently uses (Bendery) or else the most commonly used name in English (Bender), while still keeping a clear mention that Republic of Moldova refers to the city as Tighina. - Mauco 23:05, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Why is Bender the most common English name? I don't think the city has a naturalised English name, and I don't really see that Bender is used any more than Tighina. Ronline ✉ 11:12, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

The three most important English-language encyclopedias: Britannica, Encarta and Columbia use the name Tighina. bogdan 11:22, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I would say Tighina tends to be the most commonly-accepted name. Bender is the Turkish name, AFAIK. Ronline ✉ 12:07, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

The city administration calls the city Bendery, as do most of the inhabitants. Traditionally, in English, this has been rendered as Bender. The use of the name Tighina (in English language literature) is a recent development, as the city was officially renamed Tighina after Moldovan independence. The fact that this name is now used in English - to the extent that it is - is similar to, for instance, the way that the English-language commentators at the 2006 Winter Olympics kept referring to Turin as "Torino" (its original Italian name, but not its name in English). And: In the case of Bender/Tighina there is an added twist. The renaming decision was taken by Moldova, but the territory forms part of the de facto independent republic of Transnistria and the city's authorities never recognized the validity of the renaming. Depending on one's point of view, an equally convincing case can be made for both names - with each side explaining why their name is the official name - and the definite name will probably not be settled until the disputed status of Transnistria is also settled. - Mauco 18:02, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Was it really renamed by Moldovan authorities? In the 2001 year Law on administrative-territorial organisation of the Republic of Moldova the city is called Bender. And in the two previous versions of the law, adopted in 1994 and 1998, the city is referred to exclusively as Bender. Tighina variant is not even mentioned. Judging from this, the official Moldovan name of the city is Bender, not Tighina.--Imrek 16:35, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

The sentence ".. names Бендер/Bender, Бендéры/Bendery, and Бендéри/Bendery, in Moldovan with cyrillic, Russian and Ukrainian, respectively" makes little sense to me. Does the write think that "cyrillic" is another language, different from both Russian and Ukrainian? If not, what does the "respectively" mean? Maproom (talk) 10:41, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Amending. These are three names, each with Latin and Cyrillic spelling; one name for each language. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:51, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Moldova kept the name Bender after it became independent in 1991: see Law 764-XV from December 27, 2001 on administrative-territorial organisation of the Republic of Moldova, Monitorul Oficial al Republicii Moldova, no. 16/53, December 29, 2001 (subsequent modifications taken into account)

Historical accuracy

"In 1713, the fortress was the site of a skirmish (kalabalik) between Charles XII of Sweden, who had taken refuge there with Cossack leader Ivan Stepanovich Mazepa after their failed attack on Russia, and Turks who wished to take him hostage and exploit the political difficulties of central Europe." from History section.

Mazepa died in 1709. Maybe it was another Cossack leader? Perhaps Pylyp Orlyk? I will have to look this up, but if anyone can double check this first, please go ahead.--Riurik 04:08, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was was no consensus for either or any move. - Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 20:02, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

This page should be moved to Bender, Moldova or Bender (city) (whichever is the standard). Reasons:

1. It's the official name of the city according to the de jure authorities (Republic of Moldova). Law 764 / 27.12.2001 with subsequent modifications uses Bender in article no. 8 and annex 2 and 3. It never uses Tighina.
2. It's the official language of the city according to the de facto authorities ( separatists of Transnistria). See for example this page from the official site of the separatist republic.
3. It's used by international organisations ( UN ), UNHCR ) and foreign governments ( CIA , US Department of State , British Home Office )
4. It's used by local sport clubs: FC Dinamo Bender
5. "Bender Moldova -futurama" gets almost twice the google hits "Tighina" gets on normal search. And 30% more on news search and google scholar. Google book search shows a large number of Romanian books, so it's not concludent about the English usage.

Xasha (talk) 01:30, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not judging the merits of a move but why not just Bender for the target? The disambiguation page looks impressive but there are only two other articles named simply Bender: Bender (Futurama) and Bender (band). Both are rather minor topics compared with the city. Why not go for Bender for the city and Bender (disambiguation) for the dab page? If not, Bender (city) is more appropriate than Bender, Moldova since there is only one city named Bender. — AjaxSmack 04:35, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

• Support - there is merit in the move request. I agree that it should be moved to Bender or Bender (city) rather than Bender, Moldova.--Riurik 04:57, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

• Comment - I wasn't happy about Xasha just moving the page without any prior debate; so I am glad that a discussion is being made here. However I notice that the user also edited dozens, maybe hundreds of pages - merely changing Tighina to Bender on almost all of them, even on this page. If both names are accepted as a current descriptive name of the same place (which they are), then they should not have been changed at all, they should've been left as the original editor typed them. I wonder what the agenda is behind the changes. The discussion is just what the name of this particular entry should be, and nothing else. I have been doing some research on the matter of what the best name is. There is talk about Bender being the official name, and also talk about Tighina being the official name - and it seems that there is an argument for both! And even official sources can't decide what the official name is. However page names don't necessarily have to be based on the official name. Note that the entry for Londonderry (official name) is actually located at Derry, and that town also has a controversy about the name (see Derry/Londonderry name dispute) although it's slightly different (because Derry can also be a shortening of Londonderry). As Mauco says above: "Depending on one's point of view, an equally convincing case can be made for both names - with each side explaining why their name is the official name - and the definite name will probably not be settled until the disputed status of Transnistria is also settled." Anyway, I will let other contributors make their vote here, and hope that an amicable solution is found. Rapido (talk) 09:44, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

But all legislative acts (of the Moldovan Parliament refer to it as "Bender" and the relevant law on administrative units, calls it "Bender." And that's how one would determine the official name. TSO1D (talk) 14:12, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

My agenda is called Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (geographic names). And Tighina is not official the official name of Bender anywhere.Xasha (talk) 14:40, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Which is a prime example of why WP:NCGN deprecates appeals to official names. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:48, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

But Bender is also more common in English (as proved by the use in the Englsih news both in 2007 and in the period covered by google archives, as well as use by governments of English-speaking countries and International organisations).Xasha (talk) 17:55, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I tend to agree with this claim, and will probably support. Anyway, the burden of proof lies on those who would displace the traditional English name. But in this case, more than others, we cannot rely on an "official" name; doing so would imply a position on who is official. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:18, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

In this case all "official"s agree :) .Xasha (talk) 18:29, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

• Support on the balance of evidence. Bender (city) or Bender, moving the dab, would probably be best. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:36, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

How much time is supposed to take to be approved?Xasha (talk) 19:07, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

There isn't actually a fixed time period for these things. The idea is that the proposal should be made and discussed until consensus is reached. Usually, if there is clear support for one position and the issue and there is no longer any active discussion, then the change can be made and I think this applied to this case. I would just give it an extra day or two to see if anyone provides arguments against the move and then just make the move. TSO1D (talk) 16:41, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose. On several grounds:

1) Tighina is a name more often used than Bender in sources. Bogdan has given below several examples, like Britannica, Columbia, and Encarta encyclopedias. From what I can judge, per total, Tighina is preferred in 2/3 of the case, Bender in 1/3 of the case.

2) All arguments presented above in favor of the move, except one, are bogus.

a) The separtist authoritis from Tiraspol are de facto controlling the city administration (thought there are 2 police units). And de facto is used by everyone, including the person who suggested the move, in the sense of "opposed to de jure". Saying "A is B because we should base on C, and in non-C cases it is always B" contradicts the basic norms of logic. Conclusion: Tiraspol authorities can not say what is official. Tiraspol authorities themselves are not official.

b) Noone says the name Bender is not used, including by UN, CIA, US Department of State, British Home Office (the later three are not foreign governments - this is just a side note about the level of superficiality with which the arguments were presented). But the same institutions also use the other name. Just as us, they do not know which name to prefer.

c) One of the local football clubs (FC Dinamo Bender) hardly qualifies for an authority in the matter. Haven't you seen hundreds of idiot declarations by footballers who otherwise do miracles on the field? If it were about some football issues, they are prime authorities. But let's not extrapolate to the ridiculous. And just as a side note, some years ago, the city had a football team FC Tighina (Fotabal Club Tighina). Please note, it was not FC Tighina Bender, but FC Tighina (just peak up any Moldovan paper from 1990s which had a football section)

d) It is a sign of twisted logic to select a few sources which slightly favor Bender, and then dismiss the ones that clearly favor Tighina with statements like: "Google book search shows a large number of Romanian books, so it's not concludent about the English usage." With all due respect, but Romanian is the official language of the country in which the city is located (even if you call the language differently, it still remains official), hence it is natural to have many books in Romanian on the matter. Think what will happen if we would dismiss all English books on New York. We will end up with "New Amsterdam" if not with some Arabic name. Conclusion: if we look, look at all sources, observe which favor what. Let's not give preference to sources based on political views or intolerance to speakers of some languages.

3) On 27 Febraury, user Xasha, has gone over cca 40 articles, and changed the name Tighina to Bender. Such a bold controvercial action (which to his notice hardly touched 10% of all articles containing the name), without informing anyone, or requesting any comment, is only creating mayhem with a simple result: an outside reader will never know that Tighina and Bender are the same thing. And that is something any reader should always know when the city is mentioned. User Xasha has come to WP a couple weeks ago, and all he did since then was to get in a edit war over 4 articles, all related to Moldovans vs Romanians. And now, so much impatience, he counts every hour he has to wait. Perhaps, it won't be a bad idea to spend more time thinking than just waiting and rv-ing.

4) Historically, the locality was called Tighina (which b.t.w. is of Slav origin), until the Ottomans occupied the fortress in 1538. And even then, people referred to the Bender raia (military base) rather than to the city as being Turkish. In 1812, eastern half of Moldavia was taken by the Russian Empire. The Russians, however, have not returned the traditional names of the 3 major fortresses that were taken by the Turks: Tighina/Bender, White Fortress/Akkerman, Smil/Izmail, instead they preferred the Turkish name to emphasize that they got them from the Ottomans, not from the Moldavians, from whom the Ottomans took it in the first place. That is despite the pan-Orthodox frenzy promoted by the Russian Empire (this is used by historians as one argument to show that the "pan-Orthodox movement" of the Russian Empire was not so genuine, but very political). Now, in 1917, the town was part of the Moldavian Democratic Republic, which in 1918 united with Romania. The historic name Tighina was restored. In 1940, the area was occupied by the Soviet Union, and the Turkish name was again restored, now by the Soviets. After the fall of communism, the public, the press, the scholarly works used the name Tighina. The name Bender was however preserved officially, because there was a war in 1992, and the city was at the center of this war. Remember how it was with Vukovar - people were killing each other over a Latin/Cyrillic spelling. Why should people of the city have to suffer more, why add another issue to kill for? It was natural to wait until the conflict is over (it is not yet), and only then to officially rename. This is why Moldova has not attempted to officially rename the city. But this does not mean that scholars and simple citizens are restrained in any way to use the traditional name.

My proposal is to think the matter more thoroughly. On one side we have the official name of the city, Bender (even with negative connotations, it is still official). On the other hand we have a preferred alternative name, Tighina (which is the historical name of the city), which is an established name (not a suggestion of opinionated WPians). Why so much rush? Can't we think this better? Can't we consider alternative suggestions, like Tighina/Bender or Bender/Tighina? Maybe there will be other ideas, why make two moves instead of one, final, accepted by the entire community. Please, keep in your mind, that changing the name of this article will mean to do a work in 1000 other article using the name. Please, don't be so rush expressing your support for move, if you have not known how painstakingly routineous are those tasks.:Dc76\ 18:32, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

So, when are you going to present a logical argument that takes into consideration Misplaced Pages policies?Xasha (talk) 18:49, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

With all due respect, I believe my arguments above do not lack logic. In my view, I have presented enough reasons why "moving right now, at this hour, without further thinking and consideration" is wrong. Right now, I am convinced that the move should not be done at all. But people will tell you around that there have been cases when I changed my mind based on solid arguments. With all due respect, but the burden of proof lies (add mostly if you wish) with the one proposing the move, don't you think so?

Obviously, I have considered WP policies to the extent I understood/understand them from the past and present. (Hence I clearly stated the dychotomy: official name vs established name.) If you think I missed something, why don't you tell me what (you think) I missed.

Let me add a small observation: your remark comes only 17 minutes after mine. It took me over 10 minutes to re-read my writing and correct the spelling. Are you telling me you actually read what I wrote above? :Dc76\ 19:11, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I didn't read the part about how evil am I and how the town was called 5 centuries ago, since they are not arguments about the English usage today. About your arguments (that are not real arguments anyway)

1. Except the three encyclopedias, all other data sources show predominance of Bender.
2. .

a) Has no sense, at least not in English.

b) The Department of State and Home Office are essential parts of the US and UK gvts, and their position is official. All use predominantly Bender (UN 6:1, CIA uses it exclusively, Dept of State 13:1, Home Office uses it exclusively).

c) FC Tighina became Dinamo Bender, again proving Bender is more popular. This is not an "idiot fotballer" but a name used by a club, that will be used also in international competition, if Dinamo Bender ever gets to play in such competitions.

d) Google book search is the only source I dismissed, because this is English Misplaced Pages, and books in Romania say nothing about English usage. (just consider calling a Romanian Misplaced Pages article "Londres", just because that term gets more results on Google book search than "Londra"). Notwithstanding the large number of Romanian books, Bender outranks Tighina 7:6 on Google book search. Xasha (talk) 19:59, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

You said: "I didn't read the part about how evil am I" I only referred to your impatience to change the name of the article. You went away without telling anyone, and changed in 40 places, without changing in the other 960. This is not evilness, this is creating a mess, that one needs several days to sort out. Whatever you do, do it in a civilized way, don't create mayhem.

You said "I didn't read the part about... how the town was called 5 centuries ago". Proof that you read my reply selectively. Please, tell us, why should we bother giving you detailed arguments if you don't even read them? You see, Tighina/Bender will appear not only in articles referring to the current situation, but also in those related to history. By saying "they are not arguments", you betray the fact that you don't realize where the name is being mentioned, you don't intend to thoroughly edit dozens and hundreds of articles, that you ignore the implications of frequent moves back/forward. You prefer doing a quick move, and let others clean after you. That's not nice.

a) I translate: you don't understand that "A is B because we should base on C, and in non-C cases it is always B" is illogical. Comments are unnecessary.

b) The US Department of State, the British Home Office, when they simply write a name or a word, they don't take an official position. If they use "color" or "colour", that is not an official position of the US or UK government, for God sake!

c) Good luck to Dinamo Bender in football

d) You also dismissed Britannica, Columbia, Encarta. "Londra" is an established Romanian name for "London" (I don't see why should one be tempted to look at the established French name "Londres"), like "Bucharest" for "Bucureşti". The point is, Bender/Tighina has no established English name, but an established name in scholarly works, whatever the language of the rest of the text in those works. When you get 7:6, are you sure you meant Bender (city), or you counted also dozens of other meanings of Bender? (just one example, Bender-shah = Iran, and I believe there are some hits to a name of a country) :Dc76\ 15:04, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

You didn't even bother to see those edits. If you have had, you would know I applied wikipedia rules ( I used Tighina for events prior to the Turkish conquest and during the Romanian administration in the interwar period, and Bender elsewhere. ) And I changed most of the links, except about 20 that didn't mention Tighina in the body of the text, but in a form. So it was no mess, it was just Misplaced Pages policy applied.

See above, I used Misplaced Pages policy on the matter of historical name.

a)Still no meaning.

b)The US and British governments don't just take some punks from the streets and pay them to create their website. Such sites are highly politized, and every mistake is a potential press scandal.

d)Then don't apply double standards: if French sources can't establish usage in Romanian, then Romanian ones can't establish usage in English. So English Misplaced Pages doesn't care if 1,000,000 books written in Swahili, German, Mongol or Romanian use Tighina. I counted only the explicite references to the city. Bender, without any guarantee of meaning, gets 200 times more references than Tighina, but that woulnd't be fair, since the 9600 results also include a lot of uses unrelated to this specific city.Xasha (talk) 19:56, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose mostly as per Dc76; also think it's best to leave the status quo while status of each name is uncertain. Rapido (talk) 13:51, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose - Dc76 outlines a cogent case for opposition, but let me add a little. First, Google Books greatly prefers Tighina over Bender Moldova, and the vast majority of results are in English in any case. Moreover, established English-language encyclopedias use Tighina. The issue of official names is rather complex here. Moldova, in de jure possession of the city, is sometimes ambivalent or uses Tighina. Transnistria, de facto in control, isn't recognised by anyone, so how much weight we should accord its opinion is questionable, especially when two recent votes have determined that the country officially called Myanmar should be located at Burma, despite the name Myanmar being used by international organisations and a good part of the English-language press (incidentally, The New York Times, which last spoke about the town during the war, called it "Bendery" at the time). In making this decision, we should look carefully at scholarly and contemporary usage and weigh the evidence, which I believe points to Tighina being overall the preferred English term. In any case, it is dangerous for us to go around randomly changing the name, because unlike Burma/Myanmar, most readers assuredly don't know Bender/Tighina are the same thing, and unlike Kiev/Kyiv, they can't readily know it either. So please, relax and think about this before we do make any move. Biruitorul (talk) 02:20, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Using Bender Moldova, without adding Moldavia and Bessarabia, other common English names for the region, gets a deformed result. Considering these observation Bender outranks Tighina 7:6. One of those encyclopedias has at least two flawed information about Tighina. Official name, as used in Moldovan law (the only authoritative source on Moldovan official usage) is Bender. Bender outranks Tighina by a signifiant margin both in scolarly usage (Google Scholar) and generally contemporany usage (Google News search). So, I see you generally use the same false reasons Dc76 uses.Xasha (talk) 09:38, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Alternative proposal

Leave this article as it is now: Tighina, but every time we refer to it, use ]. Main advantage: the reader will know right away that that Tighina=Bender, with the first click, he/she will know it is a city. :Dc76\ 15:17, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Why does anyone has to read so many other names? I simply like and admire only Tighina. 90 1 AQ (talk) 18:48, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

In my opinion, because the sources and usages currently do not favor one over another. If/when in time Moldovan authorities return the normal situation in the city, and the city would be official renamed for the n-th time, that would perhaps seal it one way. Otherwise, this dispute here is but a small consequence of the impotence of Moldovan government to control the territory of own country. Dc76\ 18:58, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Shh, it's him! ;-) As for impotence - surely, the Moldovan government is potent enough to change its own legislation (officially rename the city) should it so desire? --Illythr (talk) 19:06, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Would you do that to provoke more burden on the citizens of the city? Smirnov would order a hunt on everyone using the name. (He won't bother them now for the same thing.) Don't you think those people have suffered enough.

I couldn't care less about our leaders' physiological abilities. I care more about their alcoholism, which can have/has political implications. :-) You remember the joke? "Ranishe bylo sh-sh-sh, a teper' wo-wo-wo, a tolku, br-br." The government couldn't care less than seek what we write here. I bet they don't even know what is WP. At any rate, it's all truth: let them show they can do better. Dc76\ 19:17, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I mean, the Moldovan government officially considers Transnistria to be part of Moldova, with "Transnistria" itself being part of an official name. So why not add "Tighina" to the list? I doubt anyone in the city will notice, anyway. --Illythr (talk) 19:41, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Why not alphabetically (Bender/Tighina) ? However, I think they are enough proofs to show Bender is the current established English (and locally official, for that matter) name of the city known 500 years ago as Tighina.Xasha (talk) 19:56, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Seeing as how Bender is the official one, I'd use Bender (Tighina). The usage of "Tighina" in the big encyclopediae (apparently, reflecting popularity) is about the only thing that prevents me from supporting a move outright. --Illythr (talk) 21:01, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Data

• Encyclopedias:
  • Britannica: Tighina
  • Columbia: Tighina
  • Encarta; Tighina
• LC Country study for Moldova: consistently Bender; once explains that Tighina is the Romanian, and Bendery the Russian, name.
• The BBC uses Tighina and Bender in the same sequence of articles.
  • This story does not occur in the article; nor does much since 1992. For a city that has evidently not been spared history, this is unfortunate. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:51, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
• Google Scholar has 195 hits for Bender; 78 for Tighina
• Google Books suggests that almost all of those who write about the city and Moldova use both names; but Bender by itself does appear to be somewhat more common than Tighina.

Actually, it is like this:

• Bender: 320 hits
• Tighina: 668 hits

bogdan (talk) 19:58, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

No, since it includes a lot of non-English books, and a lot of old ones. However, Bender gets more like 736 hits on its own.Xasha (talk) 20:37, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Including "city" to get English hits makes it:

• Bender 45 hits
• Tighina: 46 hits

One must include Moldova with both or not include it with both. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:44, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Try using my above search, adding -city. You'll get a lot of clear English-language references to this city.Xasha (talk) 09:25, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Xasha are you Moldopodo as per above? 90 1 AQ (talk) 05:01, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I think there is little doubt at this point that 90 1 AQ is a sockpuppet of one of our old acquaintances. Most likely User:Bonaparte's. Dahn (talk) 05:06, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Continue?

In ref to Xasha's and Illythr's comments: Tighina/Bender or Bender/Tighina was a mere matter of taste, or even less, a random choice. But Bender (Tighina), and on the same tokken Tighina (Bender), have an advantage: we can actually name the article Bender (Tighina). We can not name it Tighina/Bender (WP would understand a sub-article). My conclusion: you both think possible a variant that contains both names. (Life proof that honest discussion leads somewhere.) Dc76\ 15:50, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't know, the brackets in names usually serve for clarification, like Death (band). I am not aware of the bracketed part denoting an alternative name. Besides, this is exactly the problem here - it's hard to determine which name's the more widespread one - with Bender being official, Tighina being used by major encyclopedia... --Illythr (talk) 16:00, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

You mentioned exactly the problems with it. Let's think now like this: are these problems bigger or smaller than the ones with other names? I am more concerned with the usual meaning of brackets as clarifications. For order, if nothing more logical exists, we can ask an uninvolved person to throw a coin. Dc76\ 16:11, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages already thought about such problems, and gave us the answer: "If no name can be shown to be widely accepted in English, use the local official name".(WP:NCGN)Xasha (talk) 20:56, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

In our case there is no denying that Tighina is widely accepted in English. Dc76\ 20:59, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Define widely. Bender is also more widely accepted than Tighina.Xasha (talk) 21:07, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Problem is that major encyclopedia tend to conform to the widely held view (of their target audiences, that is). Take a look at the Russian talk page of this article. I wonder if that anon's post holds some ground. --Illythr (talk) 21:21, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

But news agencies and major English-speaking governments prefer Bender. I've never heard of that international organization, but I've seen their Russian site has a forum (although it didn't seem very active). Someone could ask if they do such things and where could we find an official confirmation. However, it would be strange if in 17 years that organization didn't notice no real change took place. (But nothing is impossible, see the Columbia Encyclopedia)Xasha (talk) 21:53, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

On a different side note I do believe it is incorrect to call the fortress "Tighina", seeing as how it was built by the Turks after the capture of this customs post. --Illythr (talk) 21:21, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Re-constructed. There was a fortress there before. :Dc76\ 21:24, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

All I found was a mention of a customs post, not a fortress. --Illythr (talk) 21:29, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

You seem to be right. Ion Nistor mentions a fortified custom post, not a fortress. No wonder Ottomans did not spend much time demolishing it. Dc76\ 18:18, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Kinda amusing, btw, that not only do Moldovan authorities call it Tighina, but they also made a typo on the 100 lei banknote depicting the fortress. Thighina, yeah! :-)

Name change in the 90s

Tighina was use officialy sometimes after 1994, and before 2001, but with a high degree of certitude in 1998 (the 1998 law mentions the municipality, and not the city itself). I know there was a site having a large part of the Moldovan legislative corpus, but I can't find it right now. Could someone help?Xasha (talk) 20:14, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Try this: . :Dc76\ 20:29, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

This one is adopted in 1990. This one - in 1994. I am not aware of any changes since then. --Illythr (talk) 20:57, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

very good links:Dc76\ 21:00, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Imrek provided them above over a year ago, actually. Before that I was sure "Tighina"'s the official one. --Illythr (talk) 21:02, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

From what I've seen, only the county was named Tighina, the city was always called Bender.Xasha (talk) 22:39, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

This fact makes the article from the Columbia Encyclopedia unreliable (adding to the ridiculous claim that Turks called it Bendery).Xasha (talk) 00:30, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Here I found this: Dc76\ 18:32, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

4. Cetatea Bender

Această cetate a fost zidită de genovezi în timpul stăpânirii lor pe malurile Mării Negre şi se numea Tighin, iar în urmă, în epoca stăpânirii turcilor în Basarabia, cetatea a fost luată de Mo­hamed al II-lea, care a numit-o Bendere, adică: „Eu vreau“. Ce­tatea a fost reconstruită şi mărită de turci, spre a conserva în ea proviantul garnizoanei, adăugând lângă cetate câteva sate numite raiaua Benderului, al cărui guvernor era un paşa. În timpul războiului ruşilor cu turcii, această cetate a fost de trei ori cu­cerită când de unii, când de alţii. La 1789 ajunse iarăşi în pose­siunea ruşilor, iar după tratatul de pace de la Iaşi, ruşii au întors-o din nou turcilor. În grabă, însă, după o discordie politică, fu re­dată ruşilor, care, întărind-o, făcură un punct strategic impunător şi însemnat în evoluţiile militare, însemnând trecerea peste Dunăre.

Cronica istorică povesteşte că pe locul Benderului a fost odi­nioară tabăra lui Darius Histape, domnitorul Persiei. Aceeaşi cronică spune că divul Traian a zidit peste Nistru un pod de pia­tră, ale cărui urme şi astăzi se văd. Lângă cetatea Benderului, viteazul Carol al XII-lea, regele şvezilor, fugind cu rămăşiţele ar­matei sale bătute de Petru cel Mare la Poltava, s-a aşezat pe acel şes întărindu-se. Iar izgonit de ruşi, abia a putut fi mântuit de turci, care cu o armată întreagă i-au venit întru ajutor, luându-l sub scutul lor.

Astfel dar pe arena ţării Moldovei s-au adaus şi ciolanele perşilor, turcilor, şvezilor din nord, peste osemintele polonilor, tătarilor, cazacilor etc., etc., încât cu drept cuvânt putem zice că acest pământ este un mozaic de oase alcătuite de coasa morţii ce-şi alesese reşedinţa în această provincie fatală pentru români...

(Constantin Stamati, middle 19th century)

I doubt someone could consider this a reliable source. Xasha (talk) 19:55, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Bendery (Tiahynia; Romanian: Tighina). Map: VII-10. City (1981 pop 108,000) in Bessarabia, now in Moldova, a port on the Dniester River and a major railway junction. In the past it was an important strategic point for crossing the Dniester. In the 12th century the Genovese built a fortress on the location of the Slavic settlement, and at the beginning of the 16th century Bendery came under Turkish rule.

http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/pages/B/E/Bendery.htm

BTW, the Genoese held a lot of trade posts and fortresses in the area, including Akkerman and Vicina.

bogdan (talk) 22:51, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Hey, I kinda wonder, how come the earliest written mention of the locality was on a 1408 grant by Alexander the Good, yet it was built by the Genoese 200 years before that? --Illythr (talk) 01:46, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Moldova kept the name Bender after it became independent in 1991: see Law 764-XV from December 27, 2001 on administrative-territorial organisation of the Republic of Moldova, Monitorul Oficial al Republicii Moldova, no. 16/53, December 29, 2001 (subsequent modifications taken into account)

According to most sources, the name of the city is Tighina. Marc KJH (talk) 16:17, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Bonaparte! I see they allowed you to run free this time over. Perhaps you are learning to be less obvious? Or just more careful to avoid your connoisseurs? :-) --Illythr (talk) 01:54, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Here is a map from moldovan government website with the name Bender. And here is the law in the language of the state, again, from government site. There cannot be discussion against official law of the county which confirms long-established name. `'Míkka>t 17:00, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Maybe so, but just a month ago, no consensus was reached on a move after a discussion. So how come the page was moved now with scant discussion - almost unilaterally, in fact? And, might I add, Bender isn't that long-established, and the fact it's official isn't of overriding importance - see Burma. Biruitorul (talk) 03:41, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Because he's more important than everyone else here, obviously! He went and moved the page despite the proposal's outcome, without any discussion here. First abuse of administrator status: He then tried to threaten that I would be blocked for reverted his changes because I was talking part in an "edit war", as if he somehow was not. Second abuse of administrator status: He protected the page despite the policy here Misplaced Pages:Protection_policy#Move_protection "administrators should avoid favoring one name over another, and protection should not be considered an endorsement of the current name." He previously put here on the talk page: "This is the official name of the city, according to the evidence presented. Period". (He has now deleted that, but it obviously invalidates his protection of the page). Third abuse of administrator status: once his protection was deemed to be disallowed, he merely got one of his admin chums to protect his preferred version, thus avoiding the prohibition... for several weeks. Anyone with any manners would open up a new debate here, perhaps try to reach compromise? or even consensus? Administrators should not be rude, unruly and disrespectful. Rapido (talk) 08:29, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

You've been replied to on the complaint page as I see. Don't be surprised with the reaction - circumventing a move protection by copypasting content has discredited your position rather throughly. Anyhow, whatever your opinion on the name may be, why did you do that? (Removed useful captions and stuff) --Illythr (talk) 10:31, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I can only assume your opinion that it "discredited my position rather thoroughly" is based on racial prejudice, as you make no comment on anyone else who makes similar edits to this page, presumably because they change it to your liking; someone might say that the fact you are from the capital of Moldova, but (according to your user page) don't speak a word of the official language, rather 3 foreign languages might discredit your position. Rapido (talk) 08:06, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Copypaste moving when a page protection is in place is a common vandal tactic. Reverting POV-unrelated things like caption names after being asked not to is another. I didn't comment on anyone else doing the copypaste move because nobody but you an a known long-term vandal (hint-hint) actually did it (other than to repair your moves). What kind of reaction do you expect, if your only contributions to build consensus so far have been revert warring and flinging various insults at other users? Could you also share with me which race you represent? It's remarkably difficult to engage in racial bias without actually knowing your skin color, nose shape, and other such things, you know. The contents of my userpage may indeed appear discrediting to some. Copypaste moves in order to bypass administrative protection and accusing everyone who doesn't agree with you of racial bias are discrediting for everyone. Well, almost. I bet Bonny approves. :-) --Illythr (talk) 09:45, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

See wikipedia:Naming conventions. The logic here is simple, everyone knows Burma, and it is well-established English usage. But who the hell heard Bender or Tighina in the whole world? In the later case the preference is for official local name. The same with Kiev, but Dnipropetrovsk despite the fact it is overwhelmingly Dnepropetrovsk in non-Ukrainian sources. `'Míkka>t 06:00, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

That's all well and good, but process is important, wouldn't you agree? If an RM a month ago failed to reach consensus for a move, shouldn't there be a compelling (as opposed to just a good) reason for an out-of-process move? Biruitorul (talk) 16:27, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Official name as per Moldavian law

User Mikkalai has provided undiscussable legal evidence - the official name of the city is Bender. I have absolutely no clue, how come a discussion is even taking place how are we going to name the article. It reminds me the previous pointless discussion on how were we going to name the Beltsy steppe... Shall the third discussion be how are we going to name the Black Sea? I hope one day will come, when even not knowing the subject users, will simply start typing key words in Google to have an idea of the topic. Some users simply amuse themselves on Misplaced Pages with killing their and our time with endless original researches--Moldopodo (talk) 16:32, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Although it does influence practice because many people respect that kind of thing, Wiki naming policy isn't determined by the dictates of governments. So for instance the Ukrainian government can make as many executive decrees and pass as much legislation as they like determining that Kyiv is the "English name", but that doesn't make it so; only usage does. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:44, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

wikipedia:naming conventions draws difference between Kyiv and a random village in Ethiopia. If there is no significant English usage of the name, the local is preference. Unlike Kiev, I doubt that an average English speaker ever heard or gives a damn about Bender or Tighina. `'Míkka>t 17:12, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

The average English speaker doesn't give a damn about Kiev either. The people who care are eastern Europeans writing in English. The very presence of so much heated talk above I think puts this particular small city in the Kiev rather than "small village in Ethiopia" category. Maybe I'm wrong, WP:UE and WP:NAME don't really clear it up. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:15, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

• Kiev might be a different story, it seems to me that the proper spelling in English should be Kyiv, as official Ukrainian name and even the so called "usage" discussion point to it (Google search results: 655 000 for Kyiv Ukraine, 682 000 for Kiev Ukraine). The proprtion is quite different from the one in Bender / Tighina case.--Moldopodo (talk) 23:19, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I think the matter is quite clear: Romanian users support the name used during the 20 years of Romanian rule over the area, while others support the official name (used since the 16th century, with a short interruption cause by the Romanian rule).Xasha (talk) 19:17, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

It's somewhat amusing that Tighina is actually Slavic in origin, whereas Bender is Turk... --Illythr (talk) 19:39, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I think the matter is quite clear: it's best not to assume users favour a particular solution because of their ethnicity. Indeed, I kindly ask you to keep such assumptions to yourself, per WP:AGF and the "Using someone's affiliations" clause of WP:NPA. Biruitorul (talk) 22:55, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

For those who disregard official Moldavian legislation and try to engage into another pointless debate, please simply check Google search results for another time killing, so called "usage" debate: tighina moldova - 92 500, bender moldova - 171 000. I mean, if from all participating users, there is at least one really from Moldova, besides me, she/he will confirm, that even we, Moldavian speaking Moldavians say "Benderi / Bendery". I really do not understand what is this all Balkan-Romanian manipulation on Misplaced Pages about. Some of the Romanian speaking users might think that they can easily edit articles on Moldova. However, I would like to warn them to think first of concrete information and secondly about their own reputation in front of other users from all over the world. Moldova and Romania are two completely separate states with different history, economy, ethnicities, culture, languages spoken, geography, etc. Both countries are internationally recognised in plenty of international organisatons, so how long will Misplaced Pages tolerate this and other pro-grand Romanian crap propaganda in shape of original research on its pages?--Moldopodo (talk) 23:11, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

If you use Google and "Moldavian" legislation to determine preferred names, fine; maybe other people use different methods, but that's beside the point, which is that a) no one is forced to participate in "another pointless debate", b) anecdotal evidence is irrelevant, per WP:OR and c) dark talk of "Balkan-Romanian manipulation", "Romanian speaking users" and "pro-grand Romanian crap propaganda" is dangerous from a WP:AGF, WP:CIV and WP:NPA perspective.

It might be dangerous only in the case where you interpret it pervertedly. And based on what one reads in your next paragraph, your inetrpretation is strongly biased, (to say the least) we believe it rightfully to be an integral part of Romania. There is nothing more to say about your "clear" state of mind for contributing on Misplaced Pages. I especially liked the we believe - in a "one for all - Ceausescu conductor style"... (for the record, we never had a dictator in Moldova)--Moldopodo (talk) 10:29, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

This is not a question of a "perverted" interpretation: you assigned ethnic motives to users based on their ethnicity, when no such motive was stated, and that is in fact not permitted here. Kindly refrain from commenting on my "state of mind" or drawing comparisons between me and Ceauşescu. My support of "Tighina" has nothing whatever to do with my Unionist viewpoint, so I ask you not to further impugn my motives. Biruitorul (talk) 16:08, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, technically, we did... --Illythr (talk) 11:03, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Indeed - and Khrushchev, and Brezhnev (twice - first as Moldavian First Secretary, then as General Secretary), and Andropov, etc. Biruitorul (talk) 16:08, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Naw, those weren't really dictators. And the geriatric intermezzo - pfeh. There was also Antonecsu, but I guess he doesn't count. --Illythr (talk) 16:26, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Of course, Antonescu counts. Antonescu would be offended if you wouldn't count him. Soviet period was a dictatorial regime regardless of whether the dictator was awake and aware of what is going on or living like a vegetable. (IMHO) Stalin did not control everything that was going on, but he decisively influenced everything. And what is the relevance of all this for the article? Dc76\ 16:59, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, of course he counts, as do King Carol II and Gheorghe Gheorghiu-Dej. But so do the Soviet rulers after Stalin: unelected, unaccountable, illegitimate. Biruitorul (talk) 18:22, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

For the record, yes, Romanian editors do and will continue to edit on topics related to Bessarabia, either because (as in my case) we believe it rightfully to be an integral part of Romania seized by Stalin, or at least because much of Bessarabia's history, her dominant ethnicity, language and culture, her geography and (during the glorious time of Union) her economy were and are shared with Romania. And as long as policy is respected, I trust Misplaced Pages will continue to welcome our contributions in this area. Biruitorul (talk) 03:16, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

For the record, what you wrote in this last paragraph sounds like a hot fever delirium, no offense. Moldavian Principality (in its later state form), dating back to 14th century, did in fact make a union with some other Principalities what formed Romania in late 19th century (one has never heard of Romania before) for a short period of time. Is that why you are so nostalgic? You speak of a dominant ethnicity in the context where there are cities like Beltsy, Bender, Tiraspol, Cahul, Comrat, Ribnita (largest cities after the capital city) with either Russian or Ukrainian speaking majority? Funny, you use the term Bessarabia and her history, but you should know that these are historically known namely for the time of Russian Empire rule, and have nothing to do with Romania, which did not even exist back then. Apart some joint ventures, Moldavian economy has nothing to do with Romanian, most of Moldavian economy being owned either by off-shore Dutch (aka local Moldavian) or Russian and Ukrainian capital. Our major sales market is Eastern Europe, and predominantly former Soviet Union countries. You can certainly keep blindly writing - we have the same this and that, but it will not become such, as it is all different, my poor Romanian friend.--Moldopodo (talk) 10:29, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

"Hot fever delirium"? "My poor Romanian friend"? Again, mind WP:CIV and WP:NPA. At least you didn't peddle the "Moldovan language" or ethnicity theories above. The historical links are much stronger - Moldavia held territory across the Prut from the 14th century to (as part of Romania, in fact) 1878, regaining those lands in accordance with the wishes of most of the population in 1918. Also check up on ecclesiastical history: lands east and west of the Prut were under the same Archbishop before Imperial Russian meddling put a stop to that. Români are recorded from the Middle Ages, so it wasn't surprising their state should be called România. Tiraspol and Rîbniţa are in Transnistria, and as the Nistru forms an eastern frontier to the Romanian lands, they could be 100% Slavic for all I care. If you don't count the Stalinist Trojan Horse of Transnistria, then Moldova is well over 80% Romanian, and I'd call that a "dominant" ethnicity. (By the same token, you could ask me if Romanians are dominant in Romania, where cities like Sfântu Gheorghe, Miercurea-Ciuc, Odorheiu Secuiesc, Târgu Secuiesc, etc are overwhelmingly Hungarian - and the answer is still yes.) In no country do 100% of people belong to the titular nationality, but 80%+ is indeed "dominant". Russia itself is 83% Russian - would you argue that Russians aren't "dominant" in Russia? I'm sorry, but the term Bessarabia refers to a Wallachian dynasty and was being used 300 years before the Russian conquest. Economics: what about wine? More importantly, the same argument could have been made for West and East Germany - or would you have argued 20 years ago that the two were "all different"? Reorienting the economy of one province (which anyway, inevitably due to being Romania's neighbour, and having hundreds of thousands of its nationals also holding Romanian citizenship, and many of them working in Romania, does have strong links to the Romanian economy) is not that difficult. Biruitorul (talk) 16:08, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

All there is to say, I did not talk about ethnicities, however your extensive paragrpah just above dit it very "well". All I say, there are two different countries, with Romanians in Romania and Moldavians speaking Moldavian, Russian, Ukrainian and Gagauz on the other side. We have about 2% or something of Romanians (or Romanian ethnicity if you will). That's it, and it was all officially counted in 2004. there is no need to add a star ro some other sign to Moldavian and Romanian ethnicities, as this is how you push your POV through and distort the official data. As for economy, even with wine sales cuts last years to Russia, Moldova still sells to Belarus, Ukraine, and again resumed sales to Russia. The same goes for vegetables and fruits, etc... Please, give me a break, Moldavians take Romanian citizenship for one and only thing - to go to work in the Western European countries. You know it better than me. Don't be naive, it's certainly not to gain 5 more Euros (and to get robbed this very same 5 Euros at the next corner by a gypsy) in Romania... And yes, Moldova proper had never a dictator (ref. modern, including Soviet times), there was no dictator General Secretary of Communist Party style or whatever. Stalin is Georgian, Brezhnev was senile apparatchik, just as Khrushchev, not even Moldavian by the way. That's why I recall you, check your info, knowledge and sources...--Moldopodo (talk) 17:03, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

No, I'm sorry. Romanians form one nation on both sides of the Prut, speaking the same language and having a common heritage. Some on the eastern side are Russian, Ukrainian and Gagauz - but only about 20%. It's not a question of pushing a POV: first, the census was conducted by Communist Moldovenist authorities, second, people are ashamed to admit to being Romanian due to their exposure to decades of Stalinist propaganda, and third, an asterisk should indeed be added to clue unfamiliar readers in to the fact that these "two" ethnic groups are of the same Romance-speaking Daco-Romanian stock. And I'm quite sorry, but if people in Bessarabia are speaking "Moldavian", then people are also speaking "Wallachian" or "Banatian", which is absurd. Look, maybe the economies have differences (after all, they're two different states), but a) they're neighbours b) the German example and c) this can be fixed in a few years (again, see Germany). The Moldavian SSR did have dictators ruling over it, senile or not: Stalin, Brezhnev, Khrushchev, Bodiul, Grossu, etc. That none of them came from Moldova is due to repressive Soviet policies, but Moldova was undeniably ruled by dictators from 1938 to 1989 or so. Biruitorul (talk) 18:22, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I am sorry, Biruitorul, "hot fever dilirium" was not the right diagnosis, it's much worse. I wish there were a wiki-doctor.--Moldopodo (talk) 18:30, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Now, Stalinist Trojan Horse of Transnistria is insulting too. It's not like its inhabitants are/were an enemy force hellbent on destroying Bessarabia, or something... --Illythr (talk) 16:26, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, let me explain. It (the MASSR) was Stalinist in the sense that Stalin created it. It was (and is) a Trojan Horse in the sense that it made Union with Romania much more difficult, and diluted the province's character from being largely Romanian with scattered minority communities to having a majority-Slavic element that governed the province and pushed Russification, undermining Bessarabia's character through social engineering. Without the burden of Transnistria, events in 1989-92 would have been far different, I think you'll agree. Biruitorul (talk) 18:22, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

This is a common expression: Transnistria is de facto serving as a Trojan Horse for Moldova, limiting its political, economic and diplomatic options. The problem originates not so much with Stalin, in whose time Moldova was awarded this territory in return for southern Bessarabia and Czernowitz region (the new boundary was not ethnic, as there are many Ukrainian villages in Transnistria, and very many Romanian/Moldavian ones in the territory given to Ukraine), nor it is with the the very Stalinist current authorities in Tiraspol, but rather the problem is the inaptness of Moldovan political class (what tradition? what base?) to solve the problem by negotiating with the responsible public opinion leaders in Transnistria, with Ukraine, and when necessary to arrest the several dozen separatists. The inhabitants of Transnistria are obviously not bent on harming Bessarabia, but this is what for they are used. Keeping the population hijacked like that, the hijackers hope to exacerbate the animosity between people and raise ethnic tensions, which makes them (hijackers) useful. But Biruitorul is wrong in one regard: not 80%, just 78.5%. And I'd like to mention from me that of the rest 21.5%, whoever does not have relatives involved politically, is becoming more Moldovan by mindset: these people had the chance in 1990s and early 2000s to leave the country and go live much better in Russia. If they didn't, means they like Moldovan poverty more, means they feel here more at home. So they are, not only by citizenship, but also to a greater and greater extent by mindset, Moldovans. Transnistria is acting as a Trojan Horse for them in the same manner as for the ethnic Moldovans. (IMHO)Dc76\ 17:56, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Moldopodo, if you really mean no offence, then deliver none. This kind of politicized discussion will really lead nowhere (at best). I understand that Biru's opinion provoked you to respond, but these things are really best discussed at user talk pages, and preferrably off Misplaced Pages. As long as Biru doesn't begin to push his POV into the mainspace, he is free to believe in Little Green Men for all I care. --Illythr (talk) 11:03, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I partially agree with Moldopodo. Isn't this user's support for an unofficial name that has been used in the last 500 years only during the 20 years of Romanian rule pushing of a personal view? I certainly don't feel confortable editing along an user who used to sport on the page linked by his username messages reminiscent of Romanian nationalism of the late 30s and World War II, and an irredentist map, both strongly insulting to the majority of Bessarabians. Also, his disrespect for Bessarabia's population (not mentioning dozens of International treaties), politization of technical sciences like geography, and dismissal of Bessarabian culture isn't really helping.Xasha (talk) 15:57, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

No, it has nothing to do with my personal viewpoint, as I illustrated above. Please AGF. I don't know what "messages" on my userpage you were talking about. The map is still there and you know what? The Ribbentrop-Molotov pact and the Stalinist horrors that followed (mass deportations, famine, Gulag, de-nationalisation) are strongly offensive to a majority of Romanians on both sides of the Prut. I have great respect for Bessarabia's population and culture - my own family, proud Romanians all, have roots in Soroca County. And no, I am not attempting to "politicize" anything - you will see in my rationale for "Tighina" that this is false. Biruitorul (talk) 16:08, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

It has everything to do. I mean the "Bessarabia, Romanian land", a clear clase of ethno-racist discrimination against the majority of Bessarabia's population (of which Romanians make less than 3%). You don't want me start about the massive extermination in Romania during your own communists; the proportion of Romanian citizens political victims of their own government is greater than the proportion of Bessarabians political victims of the Soviets. Probably Soviet rule over the whole Moldavia would have saved thousands of people. And remember that Bessarabians were more well to do under Soviet rule, than Romanians under Ceausescu (a nationalist anti-Soviet). You could be from the centre of the world, you have no right to deny the national rights of the Moldovans and consider their culture just a variation of the Romanian one.Xasha (talk) 17:28, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it is just a variation. But it is the BEST variation! :) Dc76\ 18:00, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Kindly do not accuse me of "ethno-racist discrimination". Bessarabia rightly is Romanian land, and fully four-fifths of her inhabitants are quite simply Romanians, regardless of what a distorted census may say. I'm the first one to condemn 98% of what Communism did in Romania, but that in no way diminishes the horrors of Stalinism in Bessarabia. I have every right to use history, language, culture, anthropology to assert the plain fact that Bessarabians are Romanians - a subset of the Romanian people with its own rich regional traditions and proclivities (just like all the other Historical regions of Romania), but Romanians all the same. Biruitorul (talk) 18:22, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm supposed not to accuse Hitler of anitsemitism either? Bessarabia is the land of its inhabitants, be it Moldovan, Romanian, Russian or a Korean who has cpme here 10 years ago, founded a family and now works for the development of the country. Your discourse here is heavily marked by ethno-racist overtones, and I think this discredits your view, and even the one of the Romanians aware they live in the 21st century.Xasha (talk) 18:46, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

God, save the Queen and Biruitorul with her! BTW, my favorite quote from this creation of Biru is - "Moldavians are a subset of Romanians"... May be you remember seeing wolfs and foxes around Beltsy as well, just like Dc76 did. I can't believe what I read here, but one thing is for sure, during my first travel to Romania, to Bucharest, I remember plenty of left children on the streets sniffing plastic bags. All I hope is that they did not learn how to use computer now and how to edit on Misplaced Pages... --Moldopodo (talk) 18:27, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

At least he didn't call Moldovans a vector subspace of Romanians.Xasha (talk) 18:39, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

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