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	Prem Rawat was a Philosophy and religion good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones Date Process Result October 25, 2006 Peer review Reviewed November 14, 2006 Peer review Reviewed March 11, 2007 Good article nominee Not listed
Current status: Former good article nominee

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Sophia Collier? Really?? Wow...

I don't know who added the quote, I can see why some people would want that quote in the article, but seriously, are you kidding me?? Not surprisingly, since jossi is the only one who's done anything other than clean-up work, the Sophia Collier page (as well as this article) neglects to mention that she's a former student of Rawat's. And this article gives that quote way too much weight. This is not a quote from a scholar's book, it's an autobiography, of someone who was 16 at the time she was living in an ashram (for a month), and the book wasn't written until 6 years later. Also, jossi, while you're at it, if you want to fix Sophia's article, I am pretty sure she didn't sell her beverage company to Joseph E. Seagram in 1989, since he'd been dead for about 70 years at that point. If I can find some sources, I will try and edit that article later.

I don't even know how to express my incredulity at this addition. I have seen people on this article "freak out" because a reference was from a sociologist/psychologist/historian/scientist/scholar/whatever's PhD thesis, and therefore has undue weight, but a passing reference from a 16 year old girl who talks about her drug abuse and LSD experiences during that time in her life, written 6 years after the fact, that's ok with the same people?!? -- Maelefique 15:52, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I have asked you already to stop discussing other editors, and focus on discussing the article. If you have proposals on how to improve citations or use of sources, you can do that without resorting to such comments. The Collier quote was not added by me, btw. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:56, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

If it was possible, I would do so, but the actions of some of the editors on this article make that, at times, impossible I'm afraid. Perhaps you could help police their behaviour in the first place, or are you suggesting that quote is just fine in this article? Anyway, in case you missed my suggestion, I suggest we remove that quote from Collier completely. Thanks for letting me know you weren't the one that added it, you weren't at the top of my list of suspects, but I'll cross you off completely now. :) -- Maelefique 16:10, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Maelefique, I think your question about Collier is a good one, but your point will be more effective if you can avoid sarcasm, and teasing the editors you want to engage. Msalt (talk) must have forgotten to sign this, where's sinebot when you need it?

Given a choice between John Dart of the LA Times and Collier, I'd pick Collier every time.Momento (talk) 10:40, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Yup, a writer for a multi-Pulitzer Prize winning periodical is always a bad choice for reference material over a 16 year old drug-abusing girl writing about her memories, six years later... Excellent choice...did I mention?... Wow... -- Maelefique 18:42, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the Collier book, let's remember that it is an autobiography, hence a primary source. WP:PSTS:

• Primary sources that have been published by a reliable source may be used in Misplaced Pages, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. For that reason, anyone—without specialist knowledge—who reads the primary source should be able to verify that the Misplaced Pages passage agrees with the primary source. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. To the extent that part of an article relies on a primary source, it should only make descriptive claims about the information found in the primary source, the accuracy and applicability of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims about the information found in the primary source.

We can use it, we just need to be careful. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:15, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Sure, we could use it for some things, but I don't believe the quote we're using to be acceptable. It is not a book about PR, her description of the time was written 6 years later, and it was during her LSD addicted/experimental phase, and she still manages to make a philosophical distinction about how Prem Rawat was percieved? She says "those that knew him better", her one month in an ashram made her an expert, she now knew him better? Enough to make that statement? Show me her professional credentials please. I was alive for the moon landing, that doesn't mean my opinion of it is relevant (and I wasn't on drugs at the time even!). Maelefique 00:29, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

There's no difference between Collier reporting what she sees and a reporter from the NY Times reporting what they see. And as you can see we have several NY Times reporters quoted in this article.Momento (talk) 03:09, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Momento, there is a difference. A newspaper like the NY Times is considered a secondary source, while an autobiography like Collier's book is a primary source. If you'd like to change Misplaced Pages policies then this isn't the place to do it. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:39, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

My understanding is that an autobiography is a primary source for the subject of the autobiography, but a secondary source for claims/opinions about third parties. I think it would be a good idea to ask at the WP:RS/N for other opinions. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:56, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

What policy page gives you that impression? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:08, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

What policy page gives you the impression that is not? What I am saying is that this is my understanding. I may be wrong, so that is why I think it will be nice to ask others. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 06:04, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

WP:PSTS, a part of WP:NOR, makes no mention of treating autobiographies differently in different articles. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:21, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

To clarify the matter I've posted a question at Misplaced Pages talk:No original research#PSTS- autobiographies ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:27, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Using the book 'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji" as a source

When the article can be edited again I propose that the book "Who is Guru Maharaj Ji" is used as an important source for how Rawat presented himself in 1973. It was written by Charles Cameron and published for Shri Hans Publications, a trading name for Divine Light Mission. --John Brauns (talk) 16:47, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

There is an WP article about the book: Who Is Guru Maharaj Ji? (book). As the book was cited in numerous works, and to avoid original research, it would be best to cite the secondary sources rather than the primary source. See WP:PSTS (section on secondary sources). ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:03, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I re-checked the book, and the only material there in which Rawat present himself is in pages 83-99, the chapter called "Questions", in particular the first two questions: Guru Maharaj Ji, who are you?, and Do you regard yourself as being a teacher of new religion, or do you regard yourself as God or the son of God?. If editors are interested, I could transcribe the replies to these questions in a talk sub-page. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:40, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I wasn't precise in my proposal. I should have said 'how Rawat presented himself, and how Divine Light Mission presented him'. Lots more material than just the pages you quote - the back page for one, Rennie Davis's intro, and lots more. Regarding original research, as you suggesting that if no secondary sources had ever quoted from the book it couldn't be used at all? --John Brauns (talk) 19:08, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

See Talk:Prem Rawat/WIGMJ - As for how the mother and older brother, Davies, and others described him that could be included if pertinent, although that is already described in the article based on other sources. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:17, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Jossi, there are other quotes from Rawat in the book, but the point is that this book was published by Divine Light Mission, and the views it includes on Rawat can be safely stated to be the view that Divine Light Mission held at the time. You were not a follower at the time but I clearly remember reading that Rawat refered to the book as near perfect as a book could be. --John Brauns (talk) 23:07, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

and the views it includes on Rawat can be safely stated to be the view that Divine Light Mission held at the time., Well, the book quotes the young Maharaji, alongside quotes of the mother, elder brother, and others (incl Hans Ji Maharaj, an introduction by Rennie Davis, a reverend named Daniel Berrigan, S.J., some non-notable individuals, a reporter of the Toronto Star, Major Yorty of Los Angeles, the Connecticut General Assembly State Rep John Fabrizio, and many others ), so whatever material we consider for inclusion, can be easily attributed to the people cited. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:42, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

the book was published by Divine Light Mission. No, it was not. It was published by Bantam_Books a Random House press. The copyright is of Shri Hans Productions, a dba of DLM. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:47, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

John, Jossi has given some relevant quotes from the book. Why don't you do likewise and add some quotes from the book that make your point to the page Jossi created? Jayen466 21:46, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Jayen, which page is that? I have probably missed it in these discussions. --John Brauns (talk) 01:27, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

It's the page Jossi mentioned above in his post dated 19:17, 4 April 2008 (UTC): Talk:Prem Rawat/WIGMJ. I thought you could add some passages there, if you feel the ones selected by Jossi aren't fully representative. Jayen466 01:54, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I've started adding quotes to the page. --John Brauns (talk) 07:58, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Good. Jayen466 17:29, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Books, even authorized biographies, are usually considered secondary sources unlike land records, court transcripts, autobiographies, etc., that are primary sources. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:05, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

That depends on how close to the subject the book is deemed to be; I've certainly seen the opposite point argued as well (even on this page here, IIRC, with reference to the book by Cagan). Jayen466 21:48, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I recall a discussion over whether the Cagan book was self-published or not, and whether it should be treated as reliable. I don't recall a discussion over whether it was a primary or secondary source (but I may have missed it). Primary sources may be perfectly reliable but they have other problems which make their use problematic. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:01, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't remember it being framed in those terms (of primary or secondary source) either; like you, I remember a discussion about whether it was self-published. I think the discussion moved to the conclusion that it was not, since the author was a well-known biographer with a known track record, and she did not publish the book herself. On the other hand, we noted that the publisher has close links with Rawat. The definition of a primary source focuses on the closeness of a source to the article subject. With autobiographies the case is clear; they are considered primary sources. A self-published source used in an article about its author (e.g. the website of a political party) would likewise be a primary rather than a secondary source, I think. Now, if we are using the Who Is Guru Maharaj Ji? (book) simply as a source of biographical detail about Prem Rawat, it is a secondary source. Some editors would probably object to such use, because of its proximity to the subject, making its status as a secondary source questionable. If on the other hand we are citing statements in the book and interpret them to mean something, then the book becomes a primary source, and our interpretation is WP:OR, unless it is cited to literature discussing the book. So in that case it would be better to report conclusions available from secondary sources. At least that is the best I can make of this at this late hour. What do you think? Jayen466 01:45, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

You have described the situation as I understand it very well. Rumiton (talk) 16:04, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree, books are secondary source as they are created from first hand (primary sources) information. --DavidD4scnrt (talk) 00:33, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Mergefrom Criticism of Prem Rawat

It has been suggested that Prem Rawat be merged into this page or section. (Discuss)

I've posted a merge request on Criticism of Prem Rawat. I propose that we merge that article into this one because they have the same basic topic and because there is sufficient room in this article to handle all significant viewpoints that can be reliably sourced. If material needs to be spun off to maintain a reasonable size then we can find other material to move out. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:41, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Are you intending that all the material in "Criticism of..." comes here? Because some of that material is inappropriate, i.e. links to ex-premie.Momento (talk) 04:47, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree that we should continue to limit the external links on this article to the subject's one and only personal site. The other material in that article doesn't seem problematic though redundant material should be trimmed once it's here, as usual with merges. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:18, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I oppose a blanket merge, for several reasons: (a) Many of the sources and material is already in this and other related articles; (b) some material is not properly sourced; (c) Some of the material is not criticism per se nd needs to be evaluated in the context of other similar material (i.e. it is redundant or not, does add value or not, etc.) My proposal is to take each one of the sentences in that old article (there is one per source) and discuss one at the time, find consensus and then add. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:28, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Jossi.Momento (talk) 05:35, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Momemtno, you say in your evidence that you don't oppose expanding the article to include criticism. Please point to the material in the "criticism" article that you don't want merged here. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:13, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

There are about 65 sentences. It would take a couple of months to move the material in. It would be more expeditious to first go over the objectionable material you list above. Can you point to which material is redundant, and which is improperly sourced? That would be faster. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:47, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Jossi has repeatedly argued for adding material point by point, and Momento agrees. The problem is that Momento, Rumiton, Janice Rowe and often Jossi himself fiercely fight every addition that does not promote their shared POV, through means ranging from tendentious arguments on Talk to flat-out edit warring. There have been literally THOUSANDS of talk edits on this page in 3 months of this year. We have no way of knowing whether this is a deliberate attempt to prevent progress, but we do know that is simply does not work.

In contrast, look at Divine Light Mission, where I made a major, bold edit with all good faith, with advanced notice to those involved, and I avoided contentious edits. In my humble opinion, the article was drastically improved, and even Jossi and Momento conceded progress. So I encourage bolder actions -- with good faith and notice -- as the most effective way to move forward. Perhaps a sandbox would be a good idea. Msalt (talk) 19:02, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

We have no way of knowing whether this is a deliberate attempt to prevent progress, but we do know that is simply does not work. I would really appreciate it if you avoid using the royal "we". Speak for yourself, if you just could. WP:BOLD is the last thing to consider given the circumstances. Once the ArnCom case closes, any remedies and restrictions imposed will hopefully provide the framework for an orderly debate and editing of this and related articles. The sooner you, I, and others acknowledge that there will be consequences for any type of disruption, the better the chances to stay unharmed and the better the chances for this article to be one that, maybe will not be the one that any one of us would write on his/her own, but nonetheless an article that you, I and others can live with, and maybe be proud of it as well. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:09, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

You wrote "The sooner you, I, and others acknowledge that there will be consequences for any type of disruption, the better the chances to stay unharmed..." What do you mean by that? To some ears, it might sound threatening. Msalt (talk) 08:14, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Jossi, can you please point to the poorly sourced and redunadnt material that you don't want merged to this article? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:54, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Most of the "Criticism" in the "Criticism of ..."article is already covered in this article.

This para from the Coming of Age section - "In the mid-1970s several ex-members became vocal critics of Rawat's movement, including Robert Mishler, the former president of DLM. A number of these critics made the standard anti cult charges of brainwashing and mind control" - adequately covers the "Criticism by former members" section .

This sentence from the Coming of Age - "Rawat had by then become financially independent as a result of contributions from his Western devotees, which made it possible for him to follow the lifestyle of an American millionaire" & this sentence from the Lede "He has also been criticized for leading a sumptuous lifestyle because he doesn't eschew material possessions - adequately cover Hunt & Kranenborg & Levine.

This sentence from "Teachings - Journalists and scholars have described Rawat's teachings as lacking in intellectual content.- adequately covers Larkin Foss.

Singer's comments belong in the DLM article.

The Paul Schnabel section is very badly summarized.

Wim Haan was a student and his comment from a student paper from a Catholic University is largely cover by "The Sants of this tradition dismiss ritual and dogma and focus on direct inner experience. In accordance with Sant precepts Rawat has never developed a systematic doctrine, and the core of his teaching has remained the process of self-discovery, summed up by his statement, "Receive this Knowledge and know God within yourself. That pure energy, God, is within your own heart". Rawat rejects theoretical knowledge" - in the teachings section.

Van der Lans comments are extreme and represent his opinion only.

The media criticism is selectively sourced as per a "Criticism of.." article.

The current article summarizes all the above comments in fair proportion and in the appropriate place. Counter comments from scholars such as Andrew Kopkind, Charles H. Lippy, John Bassett McCleary, Ruth Prince and David Riches, Bryan R. Wilson, Dennis Marcellino, Erwin Fahlbusch, Tim Miller, Raymond Lee, Rosemary Goring, George D. Chryssides, David V. Barrett, Lucy DuPertuis, J. Gordon Melton, Jeffrey K. Hadden, Eugene M. Elliot III, Sandra S. Frankiel, and James Lewis. Barrett, Dupertuis, Melton are notably absent.Momento (talk) 01:38, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

That's quite a list. Maybe I should ask instead: what material from that article are you are willing to add? As for one critic, Mishler is hardly mentioned in this article and only in the context of minimizing his viewpoint. He was quoted extensively in the news with several criticism about the subject and the movement, criticisms that don't seem to be included in any form in this article. Anyway, if we're ready to start adding this material and re-writing it perhaps it's time to unprotect the page. Either that or create a draft page to start working on adding the critical material. Meantime, it may be worth reviewing the "criticism" article to see what cn be better merged with the DLM/EV and "Teachings" articles. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 02:16, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

It's all acceptable and it's already in. Mishler gave a radio interview in 1979 which was generally critical and is duly noted, why would he deserve more space? According to Melton "Robert Mishner the former president of the Mission, who left in 1977. Mishner complained that the ideals of the group had become impossible to fulfill and that money was increasingly diverted to Maharaj Ji's personal use. Mishner's charges, made just after the deaths at Jonestown, Guyana, found little support and have not affected the progress of the Mission". No other scholar to my knowledge has made a comment about him.Momento (talk) 02:36, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Wait, you say elsewhere that you "applaudd" this merger, but here you say that there's nothing to merge? Please help me understand what part of the merger you applaud. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 02:44, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

There are two issues here. The first is the intention to merge the "Criticism of Rawat" article with this article and I applaud that because there shouldn't be a "Criticism of Rawat" article in the first place. A second issue then arises, "what material from the 'Criticism' article needs to be added" and, as far as I'm concerned, most of the material is already here. The only material not here are the extreme views of Van der Lars and Haan.Momento (talk) 03:53, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Are you unaware of what "merge" means? It means to add the material from that article to this article. In fact there is plenty of material there that isn't here. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:31, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

There are three types of "merge" described in Misplaced Pages editing - which to use depends on how much content of the source page you want to keep, and how much time and skill you have to do the merge:

• Full-content paste merger - most content, clean and fast
• Selective paste merger - some content, clean but slow
• Text dump merger - *ALL* content, crude but fast and easy

I presume we are doing the selective paste merge which involves deciding what content to keep. For example, you surely don't expect to put this in the Rawat article -"An article written by Wim Haan, published in the official magazine of the Free University of Amsterdam in 1981, forwards several critical statements. In the article, Haan wrote that he was a member of a critical movement within the Roman Catholic Church and that he was a student of theology at a Pastoral and Theology school in a small town in the Netherlands. In that article, based on his description of his involvement with the DLM over the course of two years in the Netherlands, he asserts that Rawat's battle against the mind sometimes degenerated into complete irrationality, that sometimes premies branded every critical and objective approach as "mind", and that they often avoided discussions with outsiders because these discussions could possibly stimulate the mind". Or do you?Momento (talk) 06:53, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not responsible for writing any of the text in the "Criticism" (though I've made some changes per your recommendations). I'm proposing a merger, which usually means adding in the non-redundnat material. The text you cite seems wordy, but I haven't read the underlying source to know whether or not it's properly summarized. I'm not even sure that Haan is someone we need to cite.

Let me ask the question again - which material do you think can be merged? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 07:15, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

And I'll tell you again, I think the worthwhile material has already been adequately summarized and included. But you obviously think it hasn't. So why don't you do what I've done, read every single word of what these sources have said about Rawat and decide if the summary accurately reflects their opinion. Then we'll be on the same page and we can discuss what you think is important that's been left out.Momento (talk) 07:53, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

So you "applaud" the merger of these two articles, but you think that nothing should be merged. And you don't see any contradiction there? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 17:03, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

<<< I think it is premature to ask for unprotection. The ArbCom case is just a few days from closing, at which point we will have the necessary framework to engage in discussions and resume editing without disruption. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:40, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Is it premature to say what material you think is redundant or poorly sourced? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 02:44, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I already addressed that: Bring one source at the time, and let's discuss it, check if it is already used, assess if it is worthy of incusion and in which context, does it add value or not, is it redundant or necessary, etc. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:56, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I would say the same to Momento: Bring each one of the sources you mention, with a proposal on how to include it so that we all can take a look and discuss. Making long lists of sources or asking for blanket statements will not work. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:58, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

You said above that the existing "Criticism" article is poorly sourced. Are you now unsure which parts are poorly sourced? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:31, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I did not say that, Will. Is late here. Gnite. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:56, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I asked you three times but you've never answered the question. Folks say they are willing to allwo criticism in this article, but then they object to any actual criticism being added. It's a bit ridiculous. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:22, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone have an old, blank DLM ashram application? I think we should at least post the third page and then let Jossi explain why the guru isn't that way anymore. That would seem to be a balanced approach to things. Wowest (talk) 06:48, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure understand you (never having seen an ashram application). Which "way" do you mean? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:51, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

One of the big issues for Wowest and others is that Rawat stopped being a Guru in the early 80s.Momento (talk) 07:58, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

<< What is the purpose of all these discussions here, when Will Beback has already taken it upon himself, and without discussion or seeking consesus, moved large portions of the material in that old article to Divine Light Mission, and Elan Vital (organization)? I will continue the discussion about the moved material in the respective articles. Now, my turn to ask a question, Will: Why? Why are you on one hand seem interested in discussing issues, and on the other hand you seem to dismiss the need for discussion, almost as if to prove a point. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:27, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

If you observe my edits more closely you'll see that I have been respsonding to Momento, who has participated in this discussion, by deleting an external link from the article by moving material more relevant to DLM to that article, and by drafting new text. You've been invited into this discussion several times. If you don't make any specific comments about the material it's hard to act on them. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 15:59, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, Will. That is not the way it looks. Seems to me to be a bit pointy. Is this and an attempt to force your hand by bypassing the development of consensus? Momento and you are not the only two editors, and there is no need to rush things and trample the building of consensus in the process. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:16, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Anyone who wants to participate in this discussion, or the discussions on other talk pages, is welcome to do so. Consensus doesn't mean waiting until everyone has gotten around to saying "yes". You often advocate "BRD". I haven't added anything to this article, and I won't until the protection is lifted. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 16:32, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

BRD is a great device, but placing a {{mergeto}} on one article, and then move the material to another article is, how can I put it gently? ... not compatible with one another? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:37, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

If you object to adding material to an article then I suggest raising that concern in the article's talk page. The intent is to move to this article whatever material from "Criticism of Prem Rawat" is appropriate, as suggested by the merge tag. Material more appropriate for other articles goes to those articles. Do you think a criticism of the DLM belongs here or in the DLM article? I'd be surprised if you think it belongs here. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 16:48, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

• Respectfully object the merge. The article is huge already. wikipedia:Summary style offers a proper advise for such cases. Mukadderat (talk) 22:40, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

2600 words is not "huge". By comparison, the biography of a similarly notable individual, OSHO, is 6400 words. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:20, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Shall we agree that it is large, then? :-) Mukadderat (talk) 03:41, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

It's not so large that it can't be made NPOV by including all significant viewpoints. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Please explain how wikipedia:Summary style will prevent you from inclusion of all significant points. Mukadderat (talk) 22:26, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Imagine a bio in which all of the praise for the subject is in the main article, and all of the criticism is in a separate article (save for a brief summary). Such an article would not meet the basic policy of NPOV. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:39, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Protected?

I understand, the article is protected from editing (at least I cannot edit it), but there is no tag. Please some of admins, place the protection tag. Mukadderat (talk) 22:36, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

SECOND REqUEST

PLEASE EXPLAIN why the article is NOT tagged as "Protected"? Mukadderat (talk) 22:24, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

user:Keilana placed the protection, so she'd be the one to ask why a tag wasn't added at the same time. Probably just an oversight. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:30, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Where did the Mahatmas come from?

Were they all "ordained" (pick your own word if needed) by Prem Rawat personally? Were all Mahatmas equal in status? In knowledge/ability? Could any Mahatma give the Knowledge (during the DLM days?)? Anyone have any good sources on the Mahatmas specifically? -- Maelefique 05:16, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Many of the Indian mahatmas that came to the West were mahatmas of Shri Hans. Newer ones were chosen and briefed by Mata Ji. After the split most of the Indian mahatmas returned to India and Rawat appointed 4 western mahatmas and over the next five years he appointed more than 80 non-Indian mahatmas. And changed the name to "initiators" and then "instructors". In the 80s & 90s people applied and some would be chosen. In the 90s new instructors were approved by the existing instructor team. Some were full time and some part time. There wasn't a hierarchy as such, but the older Indian mahatmas were respected and deferred to by the younger in the early 70s and when they got too old to travel they retired to an ashram. There was no hierarchy with western ones. All mahatmas could give Knowledge to anyone in the 70s. This is from personal experience and a little research.Momento (talk) 06:00, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, that's helpful. So after the split all mahatmas were appointed by Prem Rawat personally, with the exception of those original Indian mahatmas that didn't leave? Do we know anything about mahatmas that were in the ashrams when they closed? -- Maelefique 06:22, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Rawat appointed the mahatmas after the split but in the 90s the existing instructor team would decide who would be appointed. No Indian mahatmas retired in the west, almost all of them went back to India after the split and retired to ashrams there. Presumably those who were loyal to Rawat ended up in his ashrams and those loyal to Mataji went to Satpal's. Western instructors were usually self supporting and did the job for a few years.Momento (talk) 06:48, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

In my research I have not found any sources about mahatmas, besides a mention in Melton's The Encyclopedia of American Religions that they teach four yoga techniques as a personal representative of Guru Maharaj Ji. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 08:31, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I haven't found much about them either, doesn't that seem a little strange? Not strange as in conspiracy-strange, just strange as in odd-strange. -- Maelefique 15:10, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Haan's 1981 account () gives some detail about the mahatmas, by and large consistent with Momento's account above (e.g. renaming to "initiators", p. 47; privileged to give Knowledge and in high esteem within the movement, p. 37-38; their number reduced to about 50 shortly before autumn 1981, p. 57 footnote 3; etc).

Note that at /scholars Melton is not the only one mentioning mahatmas. Some other authors also give detail, e.g. from India; saffron robe (Geaves); "at this writing, all but one of Guru Maharaj Ji's some two thousand mahatmas are from India or Tibet" (Messer 1976); etc. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:27, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

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