Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 21:21, 15 April 2008

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Editors can post questions here about whether given sources are reliable, and editors interested in sourcing issues will answer. Please post new topics in a new section. If you are satisfied with a response, please tag your thread at the top with {{resolved}}.

The guideline that most directly relates to whether a given source is reliable is Reliable sources. The policies that most directly relate are: Verifiability, No original research, and Neutral point of view. For questions about the sourcing policy, please go to the Verifiability talk page.

If your question is about whether material constitutes original research, please use the No original research notice board.

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Antiwar.com vs. Political Research Associates

I see that in this edit, a cite from Antiwar.com was removed on the grounds of being self-published. It was removed from the bio of Chip Berlet, the main attraction at Political Research Associates, which is abundantly cited as a source all over Misplaced Pages. This seems ironic to me because I can see no structural difference between Antiwar and PRA. They are both highly opinionated commentary sites. Why is one better than the other? --Niels Gade (talk) 07:58, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I also can see no difference. It appears to be a case of goose and gander. --Marvin Diode (talk) 15:59, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Echos of the disparate treatment of Frontpage Magazine and MMFA and FAIR. But it's hardly news that Misplaced Pages editors have net group biases. But Chip Berlet has a special history, as it seems it was a long-term project of SlimVirgin and a like-minded claque of admins to abuse and manipulate BLP policy to the detriment of NPOV in that article, among others. Andyvphil (talk) 04:00, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

WP:NPA ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:55, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, antiwar.com doesn't count as self-published. It might count as a source of dubious reliability; however, there is certainly no difference between quoting the editor of that site and the editor of Publiceye.com. I'd like to disassociate myself from Andy's remarks above, though, as I don't know the facts (also, its clique). Certainly, if PRA is overused, people should feel free to remove it. Relata refero (talk) 05:31, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, claque does work in this context. --Niels Gade (talk) 18:01, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Heh, you're right. Relata refero (talk) 17:35, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any conclusion here that PRA is an unreliable source. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 03:26, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

We were discussing self-publishing, actually. And we usually wait a bit before deciding there's no consensus. People check this noticeboard on irregular schedules. Relata refero (talk) 06:25, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Some editors are pointing to this thread as a reason to deleted sourced material. I was simply pointing out that that is premature. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 08:15, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Did anyone have particular cases where they felt the PRA was used improperly as a source, for comparison? AliveFreeHappy (talk) 06:32, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes. PRA is overused as a source, and often in ways which violate WP:BLP. There are two persons who are professional anti-LaRouche activists, Dennis King and Chip Berlet, who both have websites with arguably slanderous attacks on LaRouche. PRA is Berlet's website, and King's website has been discussed before on this page (Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 3#www.lyndonlarouchewatch.org.) (PRA, for example, features defamatory leaflets with instructions to print them out and distribute them at LaRouche events, not the sort of thing you would expect from a scholarly source.) These attacks do not appear in the conventional press, so these two persons have opened Misplaced Pages accounts (User:Dking and User:Cberlet) to use Misplaced Pages to get greater exposure for their views. They are joined in this effort by User:Will Beback and User:Hardindr. The idea appears to be to use Misplaced Pages to "expose" LaRouche, since the conventional media are not doing this to their satisfaction. Material from the the websites in question is spammed into all LaRouche-related articles in violation of WP:UNDUE and WP:REDFLAG. I think that use of PRA should be scaled way back to a level that corresponds to its notability, and never for material that conflicts with BLP -- I do not believe that PRA meets the standards required by WP:BLP. --Terrawatt (talk) 07:57, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Dennis King and Chip Berlet have been professional investigative journalists, and are the acknowledged experts on Lyndon LaRouche and his movement. They've been quoted at least dozens of times in the mainstream press. King is the author of the only full-length biography, which was published by a major publishing house, Doubleday & Co. Berlet is a longtime researcher for Political Research Associates, which also meets our standards of a reliable publishing source. Some editors have tried repeatedly to have these two authors considered unreliable sources and have never succeeded.(Isn't there a statute of limitations?) Yet they haven't proven that the authors have been factually incorrect in any straighforward reporting. The reason that they are used in all the LaRouche articles is that they are the leading researchers of the LaRouche movement. Their viewpoints on LaRouche are not different from all the other reliable sources, and are consistent with the usual reporting. What erroneous material has PRA published that shows they are unreliable? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 08:15, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

1. Who "acknowledges" them as "the experts"?

2. It looks to me like King's website was rejected as a self-published source at Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 3#www.lyndonlarouchewatch.org.

3. PRA is loaded with what WP:BLP calls "a conjectural interpretation of a source," i.e., rampant editorializing and conspiracy theory. PRA might be acceptable in many cases for non-controversial material, but what King, Berlet and Will Beback have consistently done is use it as a source for a fringe theory that behind every utterance of LaRouche there is a hidden agenda of neo-fascism, which has been noted by outside observers as a particular tactic of Berlet and PRA against all of their targets. As is noted at the beginning of this discussion, Activist Justin Raimondo has written that "Berlet is professional political hit man whose specialty is smearing anyone outside the traditional left-right categories as an extremist, at best, and a nascent Nazi at worst." This is why PRA should be used sparingly and with particular caution in BLP articles. Will Beback is completely mistaken to say that "Their viewpoints on LaRouche are not different from all the other reliable sources." --Niels Gade (talk) 15:44, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

1. Do you want me to plaster a talk page with all of he times that Berlet and King have been cited? I'll do so if that convinces you.

Being cited in an article isn't the same as being "acknowledged as the experts." I would be interested in seeing reliably sourced commentary that says they are "the experts." --Niels Gade (talk) 16:09, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

2. I don't see a consensus there. I see one editor piping in, but without a full understanding of our policies.

3. I don't think you are accurately describing my actions. The whole concept of "fringe theories" concerning LaRouche is a bit humorous, considering how many fringe theories he's come up with and how frequently he's describned as "fringe". Raimondo is hardly an objective commentator. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:08, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

How would you describe your actions? What is inaccurate in Niels' description? --Terrawatt (talk) 22:08, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I haven't been advancing the "fringe theory that behind every utterance of LaRouche there is a hidden agenda of neo-fascism". ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:21, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

You have supported King and Berlet when they do it. --Niels Gade (talk) 16:10, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Can you substantiate that accusation? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:10, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

For example, you have vehemently defended the use of King's book as a source. King's book is simply a very long essay defending this fringe theory. The mere fact that something has been published by a large publishing house does not make it automatically a suitable source for BLP. --Niels Gade (talk) 16:01, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

That book is the best, most reliable source we have for the life of Lyndon LaRouche. Being published by a major publishing house does, in fact, make it a suitable source for a BLP. I have certainly not sought to advance the theory that that "behind every utterance of LaRouche there is a hidden agenda of neo-fascism". ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:15, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

But the book you are promoting does advance that theory. --Marvin Diode (talk) 21:44, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't say that using the book as a source is the same as "promoting" it. I haven't written an article about it, or any other promotional actitivity. I have defended it's use as a source. No one has presented any verifibale factual errors on the book, and Niels Gade himself has confirmed facts from it. No one is suggesting that there's a more reliable 3rd-party source for the life of LaRouche. If you call using the book as a source "promotion" then are those editors who use LaRouche-published books and articles "promoting" them? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:03, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I would say yes, if they are using them in articles outside of the "LaRouche-related" articles. King's book is a reliable source on King's views, and would certainly be acceptable in the article on Dennis King. --Marvin Diode (talk) 15:29, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. Using a reliable source isn't promoting it. The job of Misplaced Pages editors is to verifiably summarize reliable sources using the neutral point of view. Dennis King and Chip Berlet's books and articles are reliable sources written by acknowledged experts on the topic of Lyndon LaRouche and his movement. Using their work is no different than using a NY Times or Washington Post article. Though, of course, I know you regard those as unreliable too. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 08:51, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. May I ask how you happened to arrive at this conclusion about me? --Marvin Diode (talk) 04:03, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Am I wrong? Do you consider such mainstream media as the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Wall Street Journal, or NBC to be reliable sources on the topic of Lyndon LaRouche? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:20, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes to both questions, and I have said so explicitly. --Marvin Diode (talk) 15:48, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Break

<unindent-Perhaps I misunderstood this comment of yours:

• Major publications are not above conducting dirty tricks campaigns where politics is involved -- this has been true for a long time, and not likely to change soon.

It appeared that you were denying that major publications were a reliable source. What did you mean and in reference to which publications? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:13, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I meant just what I said. We have to use major publications as a source, unless there are peer-reviewed journals or some other, stronger source available. As you may recall, in my request for arbitration I proposed that "when views have appeared in mainstream publications, those may be used as sources and would not be disputed (this satisfies the requirements of WP:REDFLAG.)" I emphatically disagree with your statement that using the websites of King or Berlet "is no different than using a NY Times or Washington Post article." This doesn't mean, of course, that I consider the NY Times, Washington Post or Wall Street journal to be infallible. Mature editorial judgment should be excercised with any source. --Marvin Diode (talk) 21:54, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Please do not say that I have "confirmed facts" from King's book, as if that makes it a reliable source. The book may correctly say that February is the second month of the calendar year; that doesn't in any way excuse the fact that it is full of outrageous, propagandistic speculation and innuendo. --Niels Gade (talk) 15:22, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

You have confirmed facts from the book. You have not offered any evidence that there are factual errors in it. The book meets WP's standards for a reliable source. However that book isn't the topic of this thread. It has already been discussed before and there's no need to keep bringing it up. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:05, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Just to put things in perspective, has anyone offered any evidence that there are factual errors in the LaRouche publications? I don't believe that this is the sole criterion for use of a source. --Marvin Diode (talk) 21:54, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Clippings of factual errors promoted by LaRouche.

• On the talk show, LaRouche blamed the Soviet Union for engineering what he termed the the AIDS "conspiracy." "There is no question that it can be transmitted by mosquitoes," LaRouche said, citing as supporting evidence the high incidence of the disease in Africa, the Caribbean and southern Florida.
• On the KGO talk show, LaRouche pointed to the "insect-bite belt," which he said includes Florida and the Caribbean. "In the insect-bite belt, we have a very large transmission of AIDS among poor people," he said. "The Centers for Disease Control in Atlanta has been suppressing this evidence."
• Indeed, Secretary of State March Fong Eu said last week she would challenge in court "blatantly false" sections of the ballot argument for Proposition 64 submitted by LaRouche backers, including claims that "AIDS is not hard to get," and that potential insect and respiratory transmission of the disease and transmission by casual contact are "well established."

Do you want to argue that he was correct? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:43, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

You aren't addressing Marvin's question. The issue is not LaRouche's personal opinions. The question is about fact-checking at Executive Intelligence Review or other LaRouche publications. Do you have evidence of factual errors in those publications? --Niels Gade (talk) 21:36, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

We can spend more time investigating the LaRouche movement's claims about diseases if we ever seek to use the EIR as a reliable source. Of course, if you have any citations from EIR disputing LaRouche's incorrect statements then that might help their reputation. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:20, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

If EIR is accurately reporting an opinion by LaRouche, that does not discredit EIR as a source, regardless of whether LaRouche's opinion is credible or not. I asked you for examples of cases where EIR reported something as fact which turned out to be incorrect. You are applying a completely different set of standards to LaRouche publications than you do to the self-citing by King and Berlet. --Marvin Diode (talk) 03:41, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't have access to an archive of back issues of EIR or other LaRouche periodicals. Since no one is proposing using EIR as a reliable source, it seems like moot point. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:58, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I would propose using EIR as a source, judiciously and appropriately, just as I would use King and Berlet as sources, judiciously and appropriately. Alternatively, I would propose using none of them. --Niels Gade (talk) 23:55, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Treating EIR as a relaible source would require overturning or altering an ArbCom case. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:00, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Which arbcom case? If there are restrictions on the use of EIR as a source, the same restrictions ought to apply to PRA et al. --Niels Gade (talk) 21:50, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Interesting question. I'd like to know whether Misplaced Pages applies policy consistently. --Marvin Diode (talk) 11:25, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Could you please link to the arbcom case you mentioned? --Niels Gade (talk) 21:09, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Other thread

1. I have no problem with using King and Berlet as a source when they are cited by legitimate publications, because those publications may be expected to excercise some discretion about which of their theories are suitable for responsible publication. The Kronberg interview you mention below has not appeared anywhere, to my knowledge, outside of the PRA site.

2. I see a consensus.

3. Actually, I think it is quite appropriate to compare LaRouche with Berlet as "fringe" commentators. In fact, both of them frequently describe their opponents as neo-fascists or proto-fascists. The difference is that I have not seen quotes from LaRouche plastered all over Misplaced Pages. The quotes from LaRouche appear to be confined mainly to the articles about LaRouche and his organization. I think it would be appropriate if quotes from PRA and Chip Berlet were largely limited to articles Chip Berlet and Political Research Associates. As far as Raimondo is concerned, would you say that he is less objective than Berlet? --Niels Gade (talk) 21:52, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

2. Who are the participatns in this consensus you see?

3. I'm not sure what the point is of comparing the reliablility of two sources. As for Raimondo, he appears to be more of a commentator than an investigative journalist. Michael Rubin of Frontpagemag.com says, "Citing statements replicated in recent Mujahedin-e Khalq publications brings as much credibility as quoting from Lyndon LaRouche’s Executive Intelligence Review. Quality of sourcing always matters: Justin Raimondo is hardly a trustworthy authority." His footnote goes to an article titled "Justin Raimondo: An American Neo-Fascist", written by Stephen Schwartz. Do you think he's a reliable source? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:39, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. You're now quoting FPM, unquestionably a fringe, unreliable source, to point out that another source is too fringe to talk about a third fringe source notable only for studying a fourth fringe source. Listen to me very carefully: theyre all unreliable. Will, there's nobody else opposing that statement. Relata refero (talk) 13:51, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

FPM is about as "fringe, unreliable" as CounterPunch. Perhaps you'd like to remove the hundreds of citations we have for CounterPunch at the same time you take on FPM? Jayjg 03:25, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Why? I'm talking about the problem's with Will's argument. I'm not using Twinkle to suppress links to FPM. Relata refero (talk) 07:42, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm talking about the problems with your argument. FPM is no more "fringe, unreliable" than CounterPunch, and Misplaced Pages seems to have decided that CounterPunch is neither "fringe" nor "unreliable". Jayjg 04:54, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Eh? When was this? rudra (talk) 05:18, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Here. Jayjg 01:06, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Kronberg interview

The dicussion above is rather vague and compares the position of one source versus another. On a more specific point: is there any reason why this interview on PRA with Marielle Kronberg should not be considered a reliable source for her words? Does anyone assert that the interview is faked or altered? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:01, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

As long as this interview is not considered the absolute truth as is quoted only to show the opinions of Marielle Kronberg, and if the opinion of this lady is relevant for the Misplaced Pages article where it is intended to be added, I don't see any reason to avoid the usage of this interview as a source.--MariusM (talk) 20:10, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I have indicated elsewhere that I don't object to it appearing in one article, but spamming it into every LaRouche-related article is undue weight. --Niels Gade (talk) 21:52, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

If you don't object to the sourcing why did you just remove it from an article, claiming a sourcing issue? "the sourcing issues are discussed at WP:RSN#Antiwar.com vs. Political Research Associates. The only actual criticism is sourced to PRA. The rest of the paragraph is context." If there's no sourcing issue then please restore it. ·:· Will Beback ·:·

Parodies

Are parody news sources, like The Onion, SNL News, The Daily Show, The Colbert Report considered reliable sources for criticism of people or organizations? They cannot be easily rebutted because of their satirical nature. Arzel (talk) 01:00, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

They are sources only about themselves. If they are a canonical example of a notable or widespread form of satire regarding the subject, then they could perhaps be cited as an example thereof, but ideally only if there is an independent source identifying it as such. Guy (Help!) 23:47, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

How about a third party using then as a source for criticism. For example. B criticizes A regarding some scenario, A responds to B about that scenario. C (The parody source) lampoons the scenario which makes A look stupid or relfects badly against A and subsequently makes B look good. B then uses C as evidence against in its criticism against A. Can the Paradoy source C be used as a reliable source for B to reflect the POV of B against A? Arzel (talk) 01:44, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Having drawn a small flowchart on a table napkin, I am ready to answer you now: No, not unless D, a reliable secondary source, tells us that C is a notable expression of the reaction to A and B's conflict. Could we look at the specific example to see if I got that right? Relata refero (talk) 17:33, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Arzel, you wouldn't happen to be talking about this topic would you? (link) R. Baley (talk) 07:53, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that is the example. B is Media Matters criticizing A Limbaugh (who, don't get me wrong, I think is an arrogant jerk). A responds, claiming his word were taken out of context. C parodies the situation, which B uses to criticize A from a type of strawman point of view. My main problem with this use of a parody in this sense is that those that do parodies could be used as a reliable source in many situations to denagrate one side or the other. Arzel (talk) 16:05, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I certainly don't think that that would be an appropriate source for a genuine report on the disagreement between A and B. (Though I am sympathetic to the view that C's opinion of the disagreement might in itself be notable.) Relata refero (talk) 17:49, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

• My view is that Parodies are works of fiction, and cannot be treated as evidence of real-world evidence of notability. --Gavin Collins (talk) 17:56, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

So, would the general concensus be that parodies cannot be used as a reliable source for describing a real-world situation. Or to put it more bluntly, parodies cannot be used as a reliable source of criticism against a real person, unless the parody itself reaches a level of notability itself, in which case the parody becomes its own story? Arzel (talk) 02:15, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Help URGENTLY needed at History of Sumer / Aratta - Serious Problem has been ongoing for one week, don't all ignore this at once

Help is urgently needed at History of Sumer. I have been having immense difficulties trying to explain WP:V, WP:RS, and WP:OR to a new user who for many days now has repeatedly removed a reference to the view of Samuel Kramer, and replaced it with uncited, dubious OR statements that he refuses to cite. He has removed the citation requests I placed on these statements numerous times, holding his personal authority sufficient to make these claims. And every time I remove the uncited OR statements, he immediately replaces them again without any citation needed tags, and round and round in circles it goes for days without end. On the talkpage discussion, he insists that he doesn't need any sources, but that I am the one who needs to look up reliable sources contradicting him, if I want to remove these uncited statements. Everywhere I have turned for help, I am met with stony disinterest and "just get along" type advice, and the new user seems to be "learning" that all of this behaviour is acceptable and tolerable on wikipedia as long as few people are paying attention who will challenge him. Please help! Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:11, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

In addition to the above RS problem that is still outstanding and still needs attention, I now have an additional RS problem at Lapis armenus with the same user who is blanking references, edit warring and accusing me of vandalism there as well. Please take a look at the references that I have added to that article and see if they look to be in order. Thanks, Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 22:26, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I have been editing History of Sumer, since reading the first paragraph here, and there are some indications of progress in defusing a fairly heated edit war. I don't have time to look at this other page though. Msalt (talk) 22:28, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Oops, maybe I was naively optimistic. Page is now protected. Msalt (talk) 22:34, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

You've done really well though, Msalt. Hats off to your patience. Itsmejudith (talk) 22:40, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much! Msalt (talk) 20:43, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Great, now we have another problem with the same user blanking RSS he doesn't like at Aratta and adding the same identical WP:SYNT as at the first article. I am sorry to say the whole situation seems to be getting worse, not better. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 00:29, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

This isn't the kind of problem that will just go away if everybody ignores it, folks. For about a month or two now, many articles pertaining to Sumer are being systematically dismantled, scholarly references are being chucked, and replaced with idiosyncratic, never-published OR arguments by a user who has thus far been held to a much lower standard than anyone else I have ever seen on wikipedia in my 3 years of editing. Who is this guy anyway? I was blocked merely for reporting his (not my) 4RR violation on one occasion, so from that I can gather it's someone pretty high up with the "connections"...? Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 14:04, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Reference experts needed for above ongoing (3 week) problem

I have added the following reliable references to Talk:Aratta establishing conclusively that the POV does indeed, really, honest-to-god, actually exist and can be found in scholarly literature that the Sumerian Aratta may be connected with the Sanskrit Aratta. However, the same user has determined that this POV is inadmissible and cannot be seen on wikipedia because his POV is different; thus he has found what he considers fatal flaws with the arguments in each of these experts and apparently will not suffer any of this to be mentioned in the article Aratta at all, even though they are serious references from well known authors including D. D. Kosambi and Malati Shendge. Could someone please take a moment to click on each of the following pages and please verify that the scholarly discussion marked by the highlighted terms does constitute speculation that the two Arattas may be the same?? -- I feel this POV should not be excluded from the article on such facetious grounds as the say-so of one particular editor who seems to fancy himself the sole arbiter of such questions. Thanks, Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:38, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

1. Malati J. Shendge, 2003
2. Alexander Jacob 2005
3. D.D. Kosambi 1995
4. Sanujit Ghose, 2004

This represents only those sources I can find accessible through Google-books; there are a great many more scholarly references there that are not accessible except in "snippet view", so clicking the above research pages is only scratching the surface. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 12:18, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I am still trying to get even one third opinion on these references that the user claims must not be mentioned. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 21:13, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Update: I am STILL trying to get even one third opinion on these reliable references that the user claims must not be mentioned. Dr. Koenraad Elst and Professor Michael Witzel who are both considered quite mainstream can now be added to the list of experts that this user very haughtily has declared his own personal opinions and original POV to be superior to. The total silence from this board these last 3 or 4 weeks has been deafening, the two-man edit stalemate at Aratta continues and all attempts to find third opinions on the references have failed, so I can feel arbitration coming just around the corner. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:49, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I'd say Mediation, rather than arbitration, would probably be the next step. While I can acknowledge that the statements above certainly seem, to my comparatively uneducated eyes, good enough to source content related to them, I am far from knowledgable enough to say that they might constitute a scholarly consensus. But the sources do look good enough for inclusion, at least to my eyes. If there are any others who are more expert in this area, I would welcome their input as well. John Carter (talk) 19:11, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, I have now gone to Mediation cabal as a preliminary step. So far all he has to dispute these expert sources with, is his own opinions, it's not like he has come up with any sources at all to dispute them for him, so it should be a cinch whenever it finally comes time to lay our cards down. It's just that this stalemate has been dragging on for something like a month with no end in sight. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 19:34, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Mediation is an excellent idea. Having spent a little time there trying to calm things down, I urge Til Eulenspiegel to consider how s/he may also be responsible for some of the fighting. There is room for improved civility on all sides, regardless of who is "right" or wrong on content issues. Msalt (talk) 18:17, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

CAMERA may not be a reliable source

I was reading some quotes cited to the Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America, and I found a few problems related to the ongoing "Jewish lobby" headache.

• This CAMERA blog article , uses the term "Jewish lobby", and links to an op-ed piece in the Guardian which uses the term, which in turn links to the actual report, which does not use the term. See Report of the All-Party Inquiry into Antisemitism (UK) The closest the report gets is "An example of this would be remarks about the Israel lobby. No-one would seek to deny that there is well-organised support for Israel in Britain, but in some quarters this becomes inflated to the point where discourse about the ‘lobby’ resembles discourse about a world Jewish conspiracy."

• CAMERA quotes Desmond Tutu saying, in a speech in Boston:

"People are scared in this country to say wrong is wrong because the Jewish lobby is powerful, very powerful. Well, so what?...Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin...were all powerful, but in the end they bit the dust."

This speech from Bishop Desmond Tutu was also reported by the BBC. Interestingly, CAMERA appears to have dropped a line from the middle of the quote. The BBC quotes him as saying:

"People are scared in this country, to say wrong is wrong because the Jewish lobby is powerful - very powerful. Well, so what? The apartheid government was very powerful, but today it no longer exists. "Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Pinochet, Milosevic, and Idi Amin were all powerful, but in the end they bit the dust."

CAMERA dropped the bolded text, which distorts the meaning a bit. Tutu was speaking against Israeli apartheid at the time.

So I'd suggest that using CAMERA as a reliable source for quotations is somewhat iffy. What comes out of CAMERA may not be what went in. CAMERA may be useful as a finding tool (they're powered by Google), but actual quotes should come from a less partisan source. CAMERA's output is mostly derived from other press sources, so if CAMERA has something, there's probably another source for it. --John Nagle (talk) 17:39, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

three little dots... make all the difference. The difference between reliability and unrelibility. They put in the elipses. Ergo, they are rleiable. Unreliable sources are the ones that omit material without elipses. The way the old Soviet Union used to airbrush purged politicans out of the photoAmerican Clio (talk) 15:25, 30 March 2008 (UTC)American Clio

IMO, CAMERA is generally a reliable source for opinions and interpretations, as long as they're attributed in the text to CAMERA. On questions of fact they are dubious at best, and certainly not appropriate for quotations of living people. <eleland/talkedits> 17:58, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

See also MEMRI above. Pretty much any quotefarm from an advocacy source should be double-checked with reference to the original documents. Relata refero (talk) 14:45, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

CAMERA is reasonably reliable, but one must recognize that they are an advocacy group. They're obviously not an academic source, or a major news outlet. Jayjg 04:11, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

CAMERA should be treated the similarly to organizations such as CAIR. Both have distinct ideological perspectives, but they usually get their quotations correct. -- Avi (talk) 22:43, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I'd use both CAMERA and CAIR for information on themselves and their communities. For example, CAIR can be quoted on itself and Muslims in America. It should not be used for information on Christians, Jews, Hindus etc. (except when decribing their relations with Muslims). I agree with Avi that I'd treat both partisan organizations similarly.Bless sins (talk) 05:19, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Screen caps of end credits

Are these reliable? They change regularly and can vary by channel. For example NBC, ABC, and CBS all broadcast soaps which are rebroadcast on SOAPnet. The credits are different on the broadcast stations from what they are on SoapNet. So, are screen caps considered reliable? KellyAna (talk) 20:29, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Since they are created by the show's producers, I can't see why the credits from the latest first-run episodes wouldn't be the most reliable sources possible for the names of characters and the actors and actresses that portray them. Unless there's a large body of evidence that can be posted on Misplaced Pages from the show's dialogue itself that contradicts the latest credits, those credits should be the most reliable source for information regarding television programs. -- Dougie WII (talk) 17:16, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

The credits should reflect the attached show (similar to the "cite the book you're holding" standard -- base your edits on the paperback you're holding and tell us it's the paperback and not the hardcover edition). Being different on different presentations may be due to contractual, style, or editing differences. It's possible for the appearance to be different while having the same content; there are now advantages to using reformatted credits so they can be displayed in different formats (so the next show or commercials can fit on the screen during credits). I don't know how much detail is needed in articles; I don't know if movie articles describe all of the alterations made to fit a movie to broadcast TV or airline requirements. -- SEWilco (talk) 17:30, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Can you please expandon or link to that "cite the book you're holding" standard please? It seems that KellyAna is making the assertion that anything you see on a television program yourself (or in secondary sources) is less important than the website associated with it. Thanks. -- Dougie WII (talk) 18:20, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

The "cite the book you're holding" standard basically means that, using KellyAna's soap example above, you would specifically reference the credits you are citing as being from ABC, SoapNet, etc., so that even if they differ for a given day for some reason, it is clear which source the info is from. In the case of books, obviously a page number referenced for a quote will differ from edition to edition, so noting the edition/ISBN would be crucial when citing page numbers. — TAnthony 18:03, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Seems like a violation of WP:NOR to me. Dlabtot (talk) 18:32, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Isn't a television screen capture a published source, just as a book is? -- Dougie WII (talk) 19:15, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Not according to my understanding of the word published. Published by whom? A television station, cable or satellite company broadcasts a program, and a Misplaced Pages editor screen captures the closing credits of that program. Who is the secondary source? It seems like the epitome of original research to me. Dlabtot (talk) 19:37, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

We can certainly cite the credits listed at the end of a television program... The airing of a program is considered equivalent to "publication", and the TV program itself is a reliable source for what is stated in that TV program. As to the NOR issue, citing something you see on a TV program is no more a NOR violation than citing a book or webpage you read. It isn't a conclusion or synthesis originating from a Misplaced Pages editor. Blueboar (talk) 19:48, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, maybe I'm misunderstanding WP:NOR. I didn't think I was able to use my own reading and interpretation of a book as a source for an article about that book. Of course you can cite a book in reference to the books subject, but that's not what we are talking about here. I guess I'll pose the question at WT:NOR. Dlabtot (talk) 20:26, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

If a screenshot couldn't be used as a reliable source, how could any exist on Misplaced Pages then? How could anyone prove a screen shot picture of, say, Darth Vader was really accurate? Under your scheme it would all be original research. -- Dougie WII (talk) 20:39, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I think the discussion may be getting off track with this "other stuff exists" argument. I can't imagine a situation where someone would dispute the accuracy of this screen shot. However, I definitely take issue with the proposition that a production's credits should automatically be considered reliable as a source for an encyclopedia article about that production. Many credits are fictitious, jokes, pseudonyms, etc. Who played the "Victim in the Field" in Fargo? If you went by the credits you would never have heard of J. Todd Anderson. Dlabtot (talk) 20:48, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

The key word is "interpretation". Simple statements of fact (such as who played what role, who the director was, or where the show was filmed, etc.) about what appears in the credits do not involve any "interpretation". In fact, the similarity to a book or website is more exact here... unlike the rest of a TV program, the credits are in print format. We can read them in exactly the same way we read a book. No, looking at the closing credits is "Sourced based research" not "Original research". Now, if you were to go "beyond the source", and state (for example) that all members of the production team were of Irish descent, because everyone listed in the credits seems to have Irish names... that would be OR. Do you see the difference? Blueboar (talk) 20:49, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, if we assume that referencing the credits is not OR, I am wondering about verifiability. If I were to state in an article that Meryl Streep played Erica Kane on All My Children for a day on February 4 2008 based on my viewing of the episode and noting the credits, is that verifiable if the episode will probably never be broadcast and never be available on DVD? Or is the threshhold that a copy of the program exists somewhere, and although an everyday person may not have the resources/access to confirm it, the possibility exists? Although we know that a source does not have to be available online to be reliable/verifiable, KellyAna has more or less made the convincing argument elsewhere that if a website does exist, it should perhaps trump an "as seen on TV" reference (which is not so easily verified), regardless of which source is technically more accurate.

I am just thinking that as much as a screencap is obvious "proof" that could be used between editors to clarify a dispute, I doubt that in most cases a fair use screencap of credits would have an appropriate place within an article just for the purpose of such clarification. This actually is one element of the discussion that prompted KellyAna and Dougie WII to dicuss the issue here. — TAnthony 18:03, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Your question is good in a general sense, but in this specific case of Passions, the episodes are available for up to eight weeks online, a source already determined to be valid. -- Dougie WII (talk) 18:21, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but months from now when the series is no longer airing ... I'm also looking at the bigger picture, there are several articles which reference things like "so-and-so noted his birthday as May 15 in the May 1 2007 episode" which are not noted in the official site recaps, and so are not readily verified. — TAnthony 21:22, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

When a TV series no longer airs, it is extremely rare that it completely disappears. It may be available on Video, it may be accessible at a public repository such as a Museum of Film and Television. As long as someone could access it without undue difficulty (and that someone does not have to be "you"), the information is still verifiable. And as long as the information is still verifiable, the show itself remains a reliable source for such statements.

Sure, it might turn out that the episode completely disappears for some reason, and if that happens (ie if the show becomes unverifiable) we would need to revisit the question of reliability of the source. But I think we should deal with that question when and if it actually happens.

In this specific case, because it is available on line... we can probably recall it through Wayback Machine, which can retrieve the information that was on a web site on any given date... (Truth in Advertizing: I am not sure how Wayback works, never having used it, but I gather that it does work.) if so, then the show will never be completely lost. Blueboar (talk) 01:07, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Wayback will indeed recover historical pages that have been archived by its bots, but you can't recover the kind of video material we're talking about, which is copyrighted and thus protected from this kind of archiving (I'm talking about the legitimate network sites and iTunes). Not to beat the hell out of this argument (too late, LOL) but obviously with a book, movie or a great deal of TV shows, a regular person could hit a library or a video store. The only place to find an outdated daytime soap episode (outside of a viewer's personal recording) would probably be the network and/or studio's own archive (assuming the Museum of Film and Television doesn't have every episode of the shows that have run daily for 30+ years). Obviously someone can access such tapes, but are they accessible enough? I do think with non-controversial info not likely to be challenged, we can take information on good faith. However I'm not sure whether this level of verifiability could withstand a challenge, as is happening at Talk:Theresa Lopez-Fitzgerald#Requested move. I personally am compelled to agree with Dougie WII and Blueboar that if it exists somewhere accessible to someone, it is verifiable. But again, is there some precedent or consensus somewhere with which we can back this up? — TAnthony 15:58, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Rare out-of-print books available in only a limited number of private hands and locked up in special areas of few libraries would still be verifiable no? -- Dougie WII (talk) 17:49, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

The Nation article re: Daniel Pipes

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Per Blueboar, this has gone about as far as we can go. Consensus demonstrated that The Nation is reliable enough for BLPs. Relata refero (talk) 14:41, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

On the follow paragraph below, is the source from The Nation reliable for what it is being used for? Another user said because the author of the article does not have other articles online published and is not a scholar, that it is an unreliable source. And obviously the article, like many on Fox News, is written with a bias--but that doesn't make it unreliable for the context it is used in. I just need more opinion as to if the source is unable or not.

According to journalist Kristine McNeil in The Nation, Pipes has anti-Arab views. He said that the customs of Muslims immigrants are "more troublesome than most," and has referred to fundamentalist Muslims as "barbarians" and "potential killers."

1. ^ McNeil, Kristine. "The War on Academic Freedom". The Nation (2002-11-11). Retrieved on 2007-10-21.
2. Pipes, Daniel. "The Muslims are Coming! The Muslims are Coming!". National Review (1990-11-19). Retrieved on 2008-03-13.
3. Pipes, Daniel. "Bin Laden Is a Fundamentalist". National Review (2001-10-22). Retrieved on 2008-03-12.

Thanks.—Christopher Mann McKay 01:31, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

In addition to violating WP:RS, it violates WP:BLP. Something this poorly sourced might be all right for a Pokemon article, but not for a living person, when it contains potentially defamatory material. IronDuke 01:42, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I would allow the McNeil column to be used as a representation of what some of Pipes' critics think about him rather than as a representation of what Misplaced Pages thinks of him. The Nation column does include the quotes from Pipes that are claimed to be there, and the reader can verify that those quotes actually came from Pipes' columns by referring to the columns themselves, which are linked (one to Pipes' own web site, and the other to NationalReview.com, where the column was published). However, I would rephrase the passage as follows:

In a column in The Nation, writer Kristine McNeil described Pipes as having "anti-Arab" views. McNeil cited columns in which Pipes described the customs of Muslim immigrants as being "more troublesome than most" and referred to fundamentalist Muslims as "barbarians" and "potential killers".

1. ^ McNeil, Kristine. "The War on Academic Freedom". The Nation (2002-11-11). Retrieved on 2007-10-21.
2. Pipes, Daniel. "The Muslims are Coming! The Muslims are Coming!". National Review (1990-11-19). Retrieved on 2008-03-13.
3. Pipes, Daniel. "Bin Laden Is a Fundamentalist". National Review (2001-10-22). Retrieved on 2008-03-12.

Excellent work, M90. The Nation is a reliable source, and material from McNeil's piece may be used without violating WP:BLP as long as the attribution is clear and accurate (as you have done). NSH001 (talk) 10:47, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Yep, that looks acceptable by wiki standards.Bless sins (talk) 12:24, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Clearly acceptable :) Taprobanus (talk) 13:46, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Wow, is it ever not acceptable, drive-by ditto-heading aside. Metro, would you consider saying "Writer Kristine McNeil does not believe in evolution, preferring to explain biology in terms of intelligent design" in the evolution article? Why not? She is, after all, a writer, who actually managed to get one article published in a partisan magazine six years ago. You see how silly it looks? Is she any more of an authority on Pipes than she is on evolution? As far as I know, she isn't. IronDuke 23:17, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

If it was an article - one of not very many - actually published in a reliable source discussing evolution itself as opposed to mentioning it in passing, then yes.

Please be civil about community input. "Drive-by ditto-heading" is people taking time out to review a problem and give their opinion. It is reasonable in such a situation to accept that the community seems to disagree, and attempt to either change its mind or to move on, instead of being rude. Relata refero (talk) 23:37, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

In addition to what RR said, there is a mature and robust scientific consensus behind the theory of evolution, which has stood for at least 85 years (to put it conservatively.) Thus, it would be a violation of NPOV to dote on this or that contrarian writer, even if they were an expert on the subject matter (cf Michael Behe.) There is no such robust consensus behind the claim that Daniel Pipes doesn't habitually bash Arabs and Muslims. In fact, a number of reliable sources have reported on his being called anti-Arab or Islamophobic; USA Today, Jerusalem Post, Public Radio, etc. To say nothing of al-Ahram and Dar al Hayat, which are notable enough sources even without the more reliable Western papers. Clearly, Pipes is an extremely controversial figure who has been accused by many Arab and pro-Arab sources of being an outright bigot. WP's biography of him should reflect that, while not taking sides in the controversy. <eleland/talkedits> 23:55, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Note I don't like the rather vacuous phrase "Anti-Arab", nor do I really believe it is applicable in this case, but as I have subsequently mentioned (and provided) on the article talkpage, there are several academic sources that use the phrase in Pipes' context as well. Relata refero (talk) 00:08, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I’ve been neither rude nor uncivil. I don’t believe people posting “yeah me too” in such a situation is useful. I would say, further, that false allegations of incivility ratchet up the temperature and also, given that you just responded to me on the Daniel Pipes talk page with an edit summary of “rot” – actual and obvious incivility there -- you might consider practicing before preaching in future.

As to the substance of your points, we have more than enough sources which are critical of Pipes. We don’t need any fringe ones. And that you would be willing to publish a non-scientist’s view as a legitimate criticism of evolution is troubling; it suggests to me that you fail to understand some core policies.

Eleland: I’m all for reliable sources, whatever they may say. Kristine McNeil is not a reliable source: does anyone here want to dispute that? IronDuke 00:12, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Pipe's listing of dangerous academics was a political act and within the realm of politics, I find the source in question reliable. But also make sure to include the possible praises Pipes has received from his friends for doing this and give it a balance. --Be happy!! (talk) 00:19, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

You just heard five independent editors disputing that; forgive the bluntness, but what is your <personal attack deleted>? <eleland/talkedits> 00:17, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I'll actually not forgive the "bluntness" if it's all the same to you. Five users? You mean 4 POV-pushing editors and a drive-by amen can overturn core policy? News to me. And you haven't answered my question. IronDuke 00:22, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Core policy hasn't been violated; you haven't made a case that it is even affected here. The Nation is considered a reliable source; please re-read the footnote to WP:RS that deals with the various meanings of "source". This McNeil person, whoever she was, nevertheless was considered a notable opinion by a reliable periodical, and her piece was subject to editorial control and fact-checking that we expect. Also note that this is far from a marginal viewpoint, however incorrect it may be. (Ample evidence has been provided here and on the article talkpage.) Please also explain who precisely are "the four POV-pushers" here. It would be nice for those of us with no opinion to know. Relata refero (talk) 00:33, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

The Nation is indeed a reliable source (allbeit one with a distinct political slant). How one phrases the information (so that it comes across in a NPOV manner) can be worked out in the article talk page... but the information itself comes from a reliable source. Blueboar (talk) 00:53, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

One more time, show of hands please: who here thinks that Kristine McNeil is a reliable source? On any topic? IronDuke 21:43, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I think you might be misinterpreting WP:V. It's not the writer who's the reliable source, it's the publication: a "reliable, third-party published source with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." You might not like what the writer has written, but the piece in question is clearly one that has successfully made it through the publication's editorial process. As such, it counts as a reliable source. -- ChrisO (talk) 01:35, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Not only was McNeil's article considered noteworthy by a reliable periodical (The Nation), the article is also included as reference in Mearsheimer and Walt's "The Israel Lobby", a controversial yet nevertheless serious and reliable source. ]. BernardL (talk) 22:44, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Bernard, thanks for that. Can you say in what context they referenced her work? Also, do you believe she is a reliable source? And if so, why? IronDuke 22:53, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Kristine McNeil is certainly a reliable source for her own opinion, and the fact that the opinion was published in the Nation makes it notable. In my opinion, User:Metropolitan90's phrasing complies with all the sourcing, attribution and WP:BLP requirements. Abecedare (talk) 23:02, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

But by that standard, all published writers everywhere can be quoted in any article, BLP or no, as long as we make it clear it's only their opinion; we must have a higher standard, I think, especially in a BLP. IronDuke 23:56, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

No, that is a slippery slope straw man argument, becuase WP:RS is just one criterion for inclusion of content and not everything that can be reliably sourced deserves to be in an article. Some other guidelines that we need to consider are:

• WP:UNDUE: for example if McNeil had written an article in the Nation on George W. Bush, it would most probably be undue to cite her opinion in the wikipedia article since we have so many other, more notable opinions and sources available. AFAIK, this is not the case in this instance.
• WP:REDFLAG: if McNeil had made wild, out-of-the left-field or potentially libelous claims (such as "X is a drug addict" or "Y is a Arab spy") we would require multiple, unimpeachable, factual (i.e. non-opinion pieces) sources before even considering inclusion, and we would not simply phrase the content as "McNeil thinks Y is an Arab spy" etc. Again this does not seem to be the case.

The above list is simply illustrative, and not exhaustive. Hope that makes the picture clearer for you. Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 02:05, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, McNeil does make "wild, out-of-the left-field potentially libelous claims". She writes, e.g., "Pipes is also a regular contributor to the website of Gamla, an organization founded by former Israeli military officers and settlers that endorses the ethnic cleansing of every Palestinian as 'the only possible solution' to the Arab-Israeli conflict." GAMLA does nothing of the sort and Pipes is in any case not a regular contributor to GAMLA's website. Since the Nation 's fact checking process was clearly not applied sucessfully to this article this article should not be considered reliable for the truth of any factual claim made in it. That said, the Nation 's website is a RS for the content of the article, and to the extent that the article is mentioned in secondary sources (e.g., claims are made and attributed to it) we can mention its content. But only in the context of supplying the evidence that it is a tendentious piece of crap. Andyvphil (talk) 11:11, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

IronDuke- The reference to McNeil in The Israel Lobby is one of four references attached to the following paragraph:

"The Lobby also monitors what professors write and teach. In September 2002, for example, Martin Kramer and Daniel Pipes, two passionately pro-Israel neoconservatives, established a website (Campus Watch) that posted dossiers on suspect academics and encouraged students to report comments or behavior that might be considered hostile to Israel.94 This transparent attempt to blacklist and intimidate scholars prompted a harsh reaction and Pipes and Kramer later removed the dossiers, but the website still invites students to report alleged anti-Israel behavior at U.S. colleges."BernardL (talk) 23:35, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks again, Bernard. I would say 1) Walt & Mearsheimer are incredibly hostile to people like Pipes and 2) Even they do not appear to be using flagrantly loaded owrds like "Anti-Arab". IronDuke 23:58, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Anyone who wants to go on record supporting a "Writer" with no discernible qualifications other than one article in a partisan opinion magazine six years ago please feel free to sign below. IronDuke 00:00, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

IronDuke, I can see clear consensus here. 6+ editors have told you that the nation article is a reliable source. It is time that you respect consensus.--Be happy!! (talk) 00:30, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The source here is The Nation. To say that this article is merely Kristine McNeil's "own opinion" is saying that The Nation lacks editors and standards. Metropolitan90's wording seems like a good compromise toward Wikipedians who do not like what McNeil is saying. / edg ☺ ☭ 01:40, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, by publishing McNeil without severe editing The Nation indicated it has very low standards, and needs to be treated as a highly questionable source. Andyvphil (talk) 11:26, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

OK folks, it is time to stop this. The question has been asked and clearly answered. The Nation (and by extension the McNeil article) is reliable. You don't have to like the answer, but that answer isn't going to change. I suggest that we close discussion on this topic. Blueboar (talk) 12:42, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Apologies

Hi all:

As I have recently been threatened with a block for posting here from an administrator with whom I have had frequent disagreements in the past, I can no longer comfortably contribute to this thread without the risk of what I think would be a huge, drama-creating incident that would drain far more resources than it would be worth. I’d like to both thank everyone who came here and contributed thoughtful and thought-provoking responses to what I wrote, and apologize for my inability to freely reply. IronDuke 23:06, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The Skeptic's Dictionary

• http://www.skepdic.com/
• Is this a reliable source? Specificly for the Afrocentrism article, is ? Yahel Guhan 19:52, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I believe this question (about the Skeptic's Dictionary as a source) has come up before here, though I haven't looked through the archives. It would be worth seeing what people said last time - I seem to recall that the Skeptics' Dictionary was borderline acceptable so long as it was attributed in the text ("According to the Skeptic's Dictionary...") But that was on a different article - this situation may be different. MastCell  20:56, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

The article cited seems to me to be hopelessly inadequate as a summary of what is both a political movement and an academic current. Try academic writers instead. Mary Lefkowitz is suitable to use but is at one pole of the argument and needs to be balanced, e.g. by Martin Bernal. Vijay Prashad might be a useful source also Henry Louis Gates Jnr or if you can find anything by Stuart Hall (cultural theorist). Wikiproject Critical Theory might have some leads. Itsmejudith (talk) 18:51, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Link to the above discussion: Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Skeptic's dictionary. ITAQALLAH 19:16, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Martin Bernal has some valid and well-researched observations on classical historiography. On classical history itself, he is WP:FRINGE, although extremely entertaining. I would not use the Skeptic's Dictionary to say so; his books have been extensively and negatively reviewed. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:30, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I can't find the discussion, but basically what was said was that Robert Caroll is a published academic and indeed the Skeptics Dictionary is also a published book by a respected publishing house. This makes it by Misplaced Pages definition a reliable source. You can't take a source apart and say you can't use it for this but you can use it for that. And policy (not guidelines) says "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that readers should be able to check that material added to Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source." What was suggested in the discussion is that when used it would be best to write 'Robert Todd Carroll, in his (or maybe the) Skeptics' Dictinary, says...' So he may be right or he may be wrong, but either way, it doesn't matter, it can't be excluded. Where it is put is another matter. Please note that I am not saying he is wrong or right on this, just that using it is definitely allowed by Misplaced Pages policy, see WP:V.--Doug Weller (talk) 06:19, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Carrol is an academic and the book is published. It's contents may be right or wrong, but I can se no reason why it should not be citable. Paul B (talk) 09:44, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I would think that few sources should have a blanket approval as a reliable source -- and that in most cases they should be evaluated regarding quality and accuracy and expertise. In my experience, regarding a topic that I'm familiar with, Carroll's coverage of that topic was problematic, mostly relying on the sort of sources that Misplaced Pages disallows. Even as we were debating whether specific information from Carroll could be used in this specific article, Carroll removed the problematic material from his web site. I'd use Carroll with caution, and I'd look closely at the sources he uses. TimidGuy (talk) 15:19, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

You can't take a source apart and say you can't use it for this but you can use it for that. -- actually, the policy says exactly the opposite: Sources should be appropriate to the claims made. The appropriateness of any source always depends on the context, which is a matter of common sense and editorial judgment. Dlabtot (talk) 16:28, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

As so often, there seems to be confusion about whether a source is citable as a legitimate academic opinion or whether it's citable as an accurate source of facts. The only issue is whether Carroll's is a citable opinion, not whether he is right. By the way, his main source on this topic is quoted at the top of the article, the very well respected critic of Afrocentrism, Clarence E. Walker. As for his having "removed the problematic material from his website", what do you mean? It still says what the quoted words say it says. Paul B (talk) 19:12, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Carroll is not a creditable source. His specialty is philosophy, where he advocates atheism, scientific skepticism, and critical thinking. He is not a reliable source for african historiography, so he isn't reliable for this particular article. Yahel Guhan 05:09, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

So you answer your own questions now do you? What he 'advocates' is irrelevant. Paul B (talk) 11:21, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I offer my opinion into the discussion. Is that allowed (even if I did start the thread)? Yahel Guhan 06:46, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Talking Points Memo Election Central

Problems at the Ronald Kessler article. Kessler's in the news currently for a story he wrote about Barack Obama; that rebounded pretty badly and then User:KesslerRonald turned up and removed the criticism section from his own bio. (The section was pretty badly sourced and overly negative at the time.) The website Talking Points Memo Election Central picked up on this, and someone wrote a post/article, which was then cited in the Kessler article. (Following all this?)

I came along to the article in response to a complaint and did some cleanup. Most of my changes have stuck, but objections have been raised on the talkpage to my removal of the TPM-EC article about Kessler and WP.

These objections are:

• TPM - specifically its main contributor and editor Josh Marshall - won a Polk award last month.
• "We wouldn't treat the blogs or opinion columns on WashingtonPost as reliable sources either, but that doesn't mean we automatically dismiss all their news reporting. Can you direct us to a Misplaced Pages guideline that everything published by TPM Media, which does employ a small staff of paid journalists and editors and has won a journalism award (as noted above), is to be dismissed as a blog here on Misplaced Pages. Or is that simply your personal view? "
• "I'd like to point out that this wasn't published at TalkingPointsMemo exactly, but at TPM Election Central. Election Central is considerably less blog-y and more news-y than TPM proper. Is there really any bright line difference between an online-only magazine like Slate or Salon and TPM Election Central? The piece in question was written by a paid professional journalist and Election Central is described as a "website" in his bio rather than as a blog."

As this is too much information for my brain when St. Patrick's Day is barely over, I'm bringing it here for advice. Relata refero (talk) 23:44, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

The WP editing seems like a very low-level event of marginal significance to Kessler's notability as a whole; I also think that Kessler can hardly be faulted for removing a section sourced to various left-wing blog postings and open publishing sites. The "controversy" section as it stands now, with reference to the "hate sermon" gaffe and subsequent retraction, is better-sourced, and appropriate. It's our job as Wikipedians to write neutral biographies, it's not the job of our biographical subjects to salvage neutral biographies from cruft and dross. You handled the situation correctly. <eleland/talkedits> 03:02, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

• Um, TPM is hardly an "open publishing site." Nor is it really a blog, under the "online diary" meaning of the term. Whether or not it is left-wing really has nothing to do with it. eaolson (talk) 03:34, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I was thinking of this edit, which removed a "controversy" section sourced to "TPM Muckracker," Daily Kos, and a semi-reliable blog affiliated with The Atlantic. Kos is the "open publishing website" I had in mind. Oh, and TPM calls itself a blog. Of course left-wing has nothing to do with it, centrist or right-wing blogs are no more or less reliable. <eleland/talkedits> 00:35, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

• The question here on the Reliable Sources noticeboard is whether TPM Election Central is a reliable source. Whether the material itself is sufficiently noteworthy is a question for the article talk page, and has nothing to do with source reliability. 59.167.36.94 (talk) 08:47, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I tend to believe TPM as a whole is reliable for most purposes. This bright line between blogs and non-blogs is fuzzier all the time, with news sources like Red Herring (magazine) using a blog-like publishing format (leading some to question its reliability despite a history that predates blogs and, in point of fact, the web), while The Register regularly publishes rumor and tripe (such as the laughable claim that the space station is run on Windows NT) and continues to be treated as reliable, with only minor formatting differences from blogs. My point being that it is not the blog format per se that is, or should be, the issue. In the case of TPM it was a one-person blog in 2001, but in 2003-2004 moved to NYC offices and hired a staff. In a strict sense the main TPM page is still a "blog" roughly half written by Josh Marshall, and half written by David Kurtz or another employee, posts that mainly point to TPM-owned sites like TPMMuckraker. If you squint you could call any of them blogs (exception: Parts of TPMCafe, a forum, with some blog material to spark discussions) simply because they post stories "when ready", but my local newspaper does that now too. It's a bit of a strain to call TPM self-published, since Marshall appears to have investors and acts as a professional editor and publisher. Simply put I don't see how TPM fails any reliable source metric you care to use, unless you don't want your reliable sources touching the word "blog" with a ten-foot pole, which seems like a backwards way to go about making those choices. (Heck, I see people wanting to throw out the New York Post -- one of the oldest newspapers in the U.S. -- as a reliable source because it's a tabloid. Others merely want to exclude all alternative newspapers.) --Dhartung | Talk 04:45, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I suggest reading this recent New York Times article about Talking Points Memo. Among the highlights:

• TPM won the Polk Award, one of journalism's highest honors, for "tenacious investigative reporting."
• the NYT refers to the website as a "news operation"
• the NYT describes "a style of online reporting that greatly expands the definition of blogging"
• the NYT describes "a newsroom in Manhattan and seven reporters ... including two in Washington" (paid journalists)
• the NYT describes Marshall's activites as "full-time online journalism"
• the NYT makes a distinction between Marshall's liberal "personal blogging" and the nonpartisan "reporting" that happens on the site (much of it at TPM Election Central)

Sounds like a pretty clear case for reliability to me. (More reliable in this case than the Bill Kristol column that started the whole thing.) Northwesterner1 (talk) 09:10, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

As the line between journalism and blogging increasingly blurs, we are going to get questions like this more often. For a long time we held firm to "NO BLOGS". Even the websites of major news organizations were not considered reliable, because they were in blog format. About a year ago, this began to change. More and more Misplaced Pages Editors made the valid point that news sites are reflections of what is printed in the print edition of the paper, or of what is aired on the TV broadcast (in the case of sites like BBC.com). We began to differentiate between "blogs" and "news sites that used blog format". For the news sites, we also differentiated between reporting and opinion pieces. The reporting is now considered reliable in almost all cases... the Op-ed pieces are considered reliable only for statements about the writer's opinion (and should be clearly attributed as such).

Pure blogs (ie those that do not have a print or broadcast equivalent) are still in the "No blogs" category. The problem with blogs like TPM is that the line of seperation between reporting and opinion is still blurred. It is still too difficult to distinguish between the parts that are "Journalism" and the parts that are "Opinion". I suspect that the consensus to not allow any blogs will eventually change... but it is going to take time for that consensus to change, and we are not there yet. Blogging is still a new form of journalism, and we do not have a consensus on what makes one blog acceptable and another blog unacceptable. Until we reach such a consensus we can not allow blogs... even a highly reguarded blog such as TPM. Blueboar (talk) 14:38, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

• We certainly do allow some web sites that don't have print or broadcast equivalents. Slate and Salon for example. Ironically enough, also NewsMax. Plus sites like Media Matters. And so on. Format is irrelevant to reliability. The issue is journalistic standards and editorial oversight. The news parts of TPM demonstrably have both. The basic problem is with your statement that there is a problem with "blogs like TPM". Define blog. I'd say it's essentially a self-published op-ed piece. The reason we don't treat blogs as reliable sources is the same reason we don't treat Bill Kristol's NYTimes editorial as a reliable source. It has nothing to do with publication format, and everything to do with journalistic standards and editorial oversight. The news parts of TPM clearly have both -- it has paid journalists (real ones with real journalism backgrounds); it has won a major journalism award; it is describes as a "news" site by the NYTimes; and Marshall is a real editor with experience as the associate editor of a major news magazine. Where does it fall short of any reasonable standard? Yes, it has opinion pieces and we should not allow those any more than we allow any opinion piece (newspaper op-ed, or self-published blog). However the news part has as much or more credibility as a great many other sites we routinely allow. The dividing line on reliability should not be, and demonstrably has not traditionally been, solely publication format. 59.167.36.94 (talk) 00:27, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

But TPM's sources, which they usually link to, are a different question (it would be civil to include a reference to TPM in the process of citing them). In this case, if I follow correctly, they assert that Kessler's own blog said something; which it did. See WP:SELFPUB for mroe. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:23, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

No, there's no reference to Kessler's own blog. TPM is asserting (a) that the article history shows a change by a user that appears to be Ronald Kessler (he has confirmed himself as such on the talk page), and (b) that a TPM reporter called Kessler on the phone and interviewed him about making those changes. Item (a) can be verified by checking the article history. The reliability question goes to item (b): Do we believe that TPM's reporter picked up the phone and called Kessler? I think the answer is clearly yes given the general reliability of the reporting aspects of TPM, as confimed by the Polk Award and NYT story. Northwesterner1 (talk) 20:05, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

For clarification, we are evalutating the reliability of this particular report at TPM election central. Northwesterner1 (talk) 20:08, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

This seems a reasonable limitation of WP:BLP. In effect, we are using TPM only to confirm that User:KesslerRonald is indeed Ronald Kessler, and since he uploaded his own image, asserting that he was indeed RK in the process, this seems small. see Image:Kessler author 2005 med res.jpg and its history. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:19, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

←I agree with Blueboar, regretfully. Without some scientific process to gauge how TPM's writing is influenced by the real or perceived needs of their readership, it's hard to know where to draw the line, and we've dealt with that so far by not drawing the line at all. I invite people to join the discussions at the wikiquality mailing list about ways to measure how accurate a source is. Generally the discussion there is about ways to implement WP:FLAGGED, as early as next month, but the same methods could apply to any source, such as TPM. WP:SPADE requires me to say: I hope we will find a way to better judge our sources at Misplaced Pages, because TV news sucks, and TPM doesn't. The announcer on CBS News on Logo last night said that the number of casualties in Iraq just reached 4000. TPM would never make any one of the many mistakes in that statement: they wouldn't confuse deaths with casualties, or imagine that deaths of contractors, or allies, or enemies, or civilians don't count. - Dan Dank55 (talk) 17:34, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Article subject-provided translation of subject-provided clippings

Isha (spiritual teacher) is sourced almost exclusively to clippings hosted on the article-subject's site (www.isha.com) of Spanish-language clippings (most of which appear to be from obscure Latin-American glossy magazines -- thus themselves of often murky reliability), with translations into English provided by the subject's website. Can these be considered to be a reliable source within wikipedia policy? Does the potential for severe selection bias, due to the fact that the article-subject would generally provide the most favourable clippings, affect this assessment? Hrafn_Stalk 03:01, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

In (yet another) wholesale rewrite of this highly-unstable article, all the above-discussed sources have been replaced, rendering this issue moot. The replacements aren't wonderful (Spanish-language magazines) & only infrequently support the material, but that's an issue I can handle on my own. I would therefore like to close by thanking this noticeboard for the deep and detailed insights it offered. Hrafn_Stalk 07:24, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Documentary

I have a documentary, composed of interviews from published academics and experts, and a little bit of filler material in between. Is this a reliable source? I can list out and name all the experts interviewed, and what they published.

I've been told this isn't good enough because the producer of the documentary isn't an academic. pschemp | talk 03:58, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

If you want to quote what the academics have directly said during the interviews, it would be acceptable as a reliable source; however other details may not be used. If there is an online link to the documentary, it would be useful to provide that as well. --Be happy!! (talk) 05:04, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I did quote what the academics said...but have been told I can't use this as a source because the citation format cites the documentary and not every academic individually. And there is a link to it, but I was still told it isn't good enough. Not only that, the article lost featured status because one person (the FAR closer) decided that the documentary wasn't a reliable source, but never gave me a chance to fix the cites (no one else has an issue with the source, the FAR was for other things, and that wasn't even brought up). This seems a bit extreme to me, but I suspect because of the content, the decision was biased. pschemp | talk 08:28, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

When citing the documentary, I think you should mention the relevant minutes (e.g. min 15-18). This makes it completely verifiable. Otherwise, it seems clear to me that there is no legitimate ground for removing the quotes. --Be happy!! (talk) 08:41, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

You know his exact words were that it was an unreliable source and that that wasn't even "debateable." Its verifiable as it is...anyone can get the documentary and watch it. I have to say that after the way this has been handled, I don't much feel like spending more time trying to improve the project only to have one person's ignorance turn it all to waste. All the crappy drama here doesn't bother me, but this just makes me want to quit. pschemp | talk 09:30, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

What is the name of the article? Can you please provide a link to the FAR? You might also want to notify the FAR closer regarding the discussion here.--Be happy!! (talk) 19:14, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

He insists it isn't a reliable source. You can see for yourself on my talk page. A link to the source is here: http://imdb.com/title/tt0498445/ listing all the cast, (note the Dr. titles). I think because this deals with pornography he can't conceive that people involved in it are sources. The FAR was hugely messy...it was a content debate, none of which even applies to how it was closed. Link to that is here ...see the closing though...that's the important thing. pschemp | talk 04:56, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Link on amazon with review by seattle times movie critic: and describing the film makers here "They are also the makers of the world-class documentary series Pornography: The Secret History of Civilization (C4 and HBO)" you can note that it was made for Britian's Channel 4 and also broadcast on HBO. Here you can see that they are documentary filmmakers of some repute...having won multiple awards for their documentaries, giving them a reputation for fact checking and accuracy. pschemp | talk 05:21, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

And here we have an abstract from a PEER REVIEWED JOURNAL that uses it as a source. "Museum and society was launched in March 2003 as an independent peer reviewed journal which brings together new writing by academics and museum professionals on the subject of museums. It is both international in scope and at the cutting edge of empirical and theoretical research on museums. museum and society is edited by Gordon Fyfe (Keele University), Kevin Hetherington (Open University) and Susan Pearce (University of Leicester)."pschemp | talk 05:24, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

And here another academic who quotes it . pschemp | talk 05:40, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Seriously...some help here people? I am not on crack. pschemp | talk 05:40, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Here - it is used as a source again and discussed in a peer reviewed journal "One local expression of this new-found prominence of previously illicit sexual material on mass market television in Britian has been the Channel Four television series "Pornography: the secret history of civilization" This series is remarkable for its portrayal of professional pornographers as a visionary vanguard involved in the championing and expansion of popular taste (against the obstacles put in their way simply by puritanical and prejudiced social forces.)" pschemp | talk 06:09, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Having looked at the links you provided, including the fact that the series aired on Channel 4 and is referenced (approvingly) in academic literature, I agree that the documentary qualifies as a reliable source for wikipedia, but may need to be used with care. Here are my comments and suggestions:

• The documentary may be presenting a POV ("series is remarkable for its portrayal of professional pornographers as a visionary vanguard"), so its content should be attributed and not stated as fact (depending of course on what exactly is being referenced).
• Similarly, if the documentary contains interviews with scholars, the scholar should be cited by name in the article, either in the maintext or the footnote (using Harvard referencing may help here). Something like, "Prof. xyz in Rodley et al (2006a)" with 2006a-> Segment 1 etc
• It may be a good idea to create a wikipedia article on the documentary and then wikilink to that page, rather than the page of the publishers. That way the reader knows why he should trust the information attributed to the documentary.
• Are there other examples on wikipedia where a TV documentary series is used as a reference ? I can imagine Carl Sagan's Cosmos, Joseph Campbell's Power of Myth or the many Ken Burns's series being used as sources. All those series have associated print publications, but it may still be a good idea to look if and how the documentaries themselves are referenced.

Please note that I haven't seen the doc. myself, so some of the above comments are based on a guesstimation of its content (I am imagining a series of interviews; snippets from historical works; and a voiceover). Anyway, I hope that helps. Abecedare (talk) 02:30, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that's pretty much what it is. Thanks for the input. It was never used to back up opinions on professional pornographers and such as that isn't what the article it is used in is about, just used to cite the facts extracted from the academic interviews. pschemp | talk 05:51, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Masculinity for Boys

An editor is particularly keen to use this document . in a number of articles related to sexuality. The booklet is entitled "Masculinity for Boys, Resource Guide for Peer Educators, Published by UNESCO, New Delhi, 2006". As this indicates it is published through UNESCO, but the second page clearly states, "The opinion expressed in this documents are the reponsibility of the author and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of UNESCO New Delhi".

The text of this document is full of grand ex cathedra assertions. For example:

"The masculinity with which boys are born is natural masculinity. This is given by nature. However society has created a mechanism by which it does not acknowledge this masculinity."

"modern heterosexual societies take sexual exploitation of men to new heights - often with official sanction. Grown up boys and young men in the west are required to strip naked before female doctors, nurses and officials"

"Now ragging in the West almost always involve boys being forcibly stripped by girls (with the backing of male seniors) or being forced to masturbate in front of them".

I could add more passages, which seem to me to be very...eccentric. The general argument seems to be that it is natural for men to bond with other men, and to sexually desire them, but that the western distinction between "gay" and "straight" identity causes confusion for boys, who are also being sexually humiliated by over-assertive women, who are given power by this "heterosexualised" culture. In India traditional models of gender and sexual behaviour do not involve these problems, but India is being tainted by Western ideas.

However, my personal opinion of course is not a good reason to reject a source which has at least some claim to authoritative status via UNESCO. Any thoughts on how to evaluate this source? Paul B (talk) 19:45, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

If its not a position paper by UNESCO Delhi, it doesn't have the UNESCO stamp. I don't see an author's name, so its totally unreliable. It doesn't appear particularly well-researched to me either. Relata refero (talk) 20:38, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Given the prominent UNESCO disclaimer and unknown authorship, I don't see how this document can be regarded as a reliable source for the subject. A little web sleuthing suggests that it was written by Alok Srivastava of "Youth Alliance for AIDS removal" (YAAR, an Indian NGO), but even if that proves to be true, it does not help in establishing the documents reliability. I think its use on wikipedia in not warranted especially since innumerable scholarly books and articles are available on the subject. Abecedare (talk) 21:23, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

• I would strongly avoid use of this document because (1) the author is anonymous, (2) the publisher disclaims endorsement of the views expressed therein, and (3) its claims are contentious. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 07:59, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

An organisation like UNESCO doesn't just publish anything. If it has given its name to a document, and has published it using its own money, and is using the book in several of its programmes, and has gone out of its way to advertise the book on its websites as well put the entire text out on the net on its own website -- it is not an honour that it gives to many of its documents -- then it would be foolish or outright questionable to question its reliability.

Several UNESCO websites claim quite clearly that "The publication has been brought out jointly by UNESCO New Delhi and YAAR (a New Delhi based NGO working with youth), which deals with the issues of gender and sexual health of youth of India." Do you think UNESCO would give its name just to any document and risk its credibility. I would say, if UNESCO has given its name to something, then even if its seems an outright lie, one has to take it seriously.

Then again, its a general policy to put a note on books published by UNESCO that the views expressed in the document are of the author(s), even then the above fact holds true that if UNESCO Delhi didn't trust fully that the contents are 100% true, they won't publish it without at least editing out the doubtful points. (Masculinity (talk) 16:20, 29 March 2008 (UTC))

The document clearly states that the book is the result of a series of Consultations held with young people. It cannot be relegated to the opinion of one or two authors. UNESCO doesn't usually pay for publishing personal views or ideologies of people, especially if they are disconnected with reality.(Masculinity (talk) 16:54, 29 March 2008 (UTC))

The above mentioned book is being used extensively not only by UNESCO and UNIFEM in their various projects, at least in India, but also by several other social intervention agencies, including Jagori, SAATHI, YAARI-DOSTI etc. The Hindi version of this book called, "Mardanagi, purushon ke liye ek Margdarshak" is being used widely as well. (Masculinity (talk) 16:36, 29 March 2008 (UTC))

The group YAAR has been working with men on the issues of gender and sexuality for several years with important agencies such as UNESCO, Government of India, Government of Netherlands, Various state governments in India, All India Institute of Medical Sciences, and several national and local level agencies of repute in India. The organisation has a grasp on the core issues and has a respectable position amongst NGOs in India. It has presented several papers in national and international conferences (including on this issue of sexual identities vis-a-vis men) and several of these abstracts are available on the net (e.g. http://gateway.nlm.nih.gov/MeetingAbstracts/ma?f=102241127.html

Addressing the issues of male-to-male sexuality in India)

Its work has been acknowledged by several documentations, even on the net, e.g. by this one entitled:

“Oh! This one is infected!”: Women, HIV & Human Rights in the Asia-Pacific Region. Paper commissioned by the UN Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights, from ICW 2004 By Susan Paxton, with Alice Welbourn, P Kousalya, Anandi Yuvaraj, Sapana Pradhan Malla and Motoko Seko. Excerpt: "Examples such as the YAAR project, working with young men in schools in Delhi to explore gender and sexuality issues, should be more widely disseminated."

Its members have been invited to present papers at international conferences and even to facilitate workshops on gender and sexuality issues. E.g., K.Vidya from YAAR was invited to South Africa conference of IPAS to facilitate a workshop on Gender. http://www.iwtc.org/ideas/9a_gender.pdf.

In fact, one report on a set of workshops conducted on male gender and sexuality with adolescent boys in Delhi received world-wide publicity and is today stored in several universities and libraries all across the world. It can be read at this site of UNIFEM: www.unifem.org/campaigns/csw/documents/MenAndMasculinities.pdf

(Masculinity (talk) 16:36, 29 March 2008 (UTC))

It's true that the book isn't about anthropological study or a scholarly research. However, it doesn't become invalid because of that. In fact, there are limits/ gaps of scholarly researches, which can only be filled by action researches such as those conducted by intervention agencies working at the grassroots level. The scholarly researches are severely limited because of several factors, and may be too much quantity oriented -- meaning concerned largely with statistics (like the Shivananda Khan's study that says 72% truck drivers in north pakistan have had sex with other men). However, the researches/ evidences presented by intervention agencies working at the grassroots level can be extremely important, since they have a reach where scholars cannot go. And this is where the UNESCO document is extremely important -- for its empirical evidence, which is invaluable. So stop questioning the validity of the document.(Masculinity (talk) 16:42, 29 March 2008 (UTC))

And then, its not as if this document is the only one I've used ... or even the primary one. Whatever is being quoted from this document in the article, has been validated by several other references (provided here) -- including anthropological studies, newspaper and other articles, published papers in reputed international conferences/ universities, etc. The UNESCO document is unique only because its gives the 'qualitative' picture or the 'EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE' of the stuff that all the other scholarly references have clearly enumerated, but more as quantitative data. (Masculinity (talk) 16:46, 29 March 2008 (UTC))

to say it's not a reliable source is an understatement - it should be removed on sight. --87.114.149.247 (talk) 17:51, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I hope this is not a personal discomfort with the book? By the way, unsigned remarks don't count.(Masculinity (talk) 03:40, 30 March 2008 (UTC))

No it's professional discomfort - I'm a academic and it offends me to see such crap used as a source here, it fit for toilet paper and that's about it. Don't attack me as a person again or I'll move to have you blocked. --87.112.64.140 (talk) 11:56, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Please keep your professional issues with yourself. I'm afraid, we're here as just editors helping out Misplaced Pages. You've no right to question a source like UNESCO. You can discredit this UNESCO document academically, and then discredit it here. I doubt you will be able to do that, since this document does not claim to be an academic work and thus is not bound by academic rules. What this book does claim, is to be based on years of social work, actual ground level work with youths of India on gender and sexual health issues, and bring to us enormous wealth of empirical data, which has also been valued in the academic circles. (124.30.94.10 (talk) 05:42, 31 March 2008 (UTC))

Oh and it's massively overcited in this article - that needs some major clean-up.

I don't see the issue here. It is commonplace to have that disclaimer. It clearly is a UNESCO paper. And while there are many scattered Anthropological studies easily accessed by a google search, the field of anthropology itself admits to having lagged behind in their studies of this topic and that it has become an issue within that community to remedy that. No one anthropological study has put it all together in one document as has UNESCO. I can't help but wonder what is so threatening about this information to have it undergo so much undo scrutiny. DEZnCHRIS (talk) 05:34, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

It does not "put it all together in one document as has UNESCO". What 'anthropological research' states that in 'the West' men are 'almost always' forced to masturbate in front of girls during 'ragging'? It is unreferenced drivel, and profoundly misogynistic drivel at that. Nothing is more vivid in this document than its author's pathological fear of women. Serious sources - of which there are indeed many - say nothing like this. Paul B (talk) 11:36, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

leaving aside the fact that it's dire - no author is identified, no sources are presented within the document - it's unreliable by our standards. What about it says "anthropology study" rather than "ravings of a crackpot" to you DezNChris? --87.112.64.140 (talk) 11:56, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Again. No bibliography; prominent disclaimer; un-named author = not reliable. Relata refero (talk) 13:08, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

UNESCO is all the name you need. Besides, Alok Srivastava of YAAR NGO has been listed as the main author.(124.30.94.10 (talk) 05:42, 31 March 2008 (UTC))

This guy has massive WP:OWN issues that need to be dealt with - he's seems intent on just reverting anyone who tries to clean-up articles that contain that document (and other unreliable sources). --87.112.38.211 (talk) 18:07, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

The final word hasn't been said yet, so don't be in a hurry. You can't just dismiss a UN document. I think, first we should wait for more people to comment and then the issue may have to be referred to administrators. (Masculinity (talk) 02:11, 31 March 2008 (UTC))

The book doesn't claim to be based on anthropological research. The book is based on action research. Apart from the ground situation in India, it also talks about the perceptions amongst the male youth regarding different issues of masculinity. Ragging is known as hazing in the West, and it is not uncommon for guys to be made to masturbate in front of girls. There have been several such cases in India recently, as our society is heterosexualised and hostels made common for girls and boys. There are several evidences (not researches but personal accounts and pics) available on the net for that. The idea is totally against the Indian ethos, and so the anger of Indians to a forced Western practice is understandable.

However, the merit of the book is about the various case studies that it has presented, and the empirical evidences. I am only quoting the document for facts for which other resources (e.g. anthropological studies) are available. It gives a much more detailed and empirical information about those issues.

Besides, like I said, the editors here are not supposed to review a book for its validity as a reference. That is dangerous. We have to go by the rules. And as per the rules, UNESCO is a valid source. Whether or not we agree with the information.

It works both ways, I have to withhold or delete a lot of information that some aggressive elements in LGBT don't personally like, eventhough it is common knowledge across the non-West, just because no references from reputed sources was available. But, when they're available, you can't dismiss it because you don't agree with the content.(Masculinity (talk) 02:24, 31 March 2008 (UTC))

We're still on this? Masculinity for boys appears to be very idiosyncratic. It cannot be considered a reliable source. If other sources can be cited for points currently sourced by Masculinity for boys, those sources should be swapped in. Otherwise those points are effectively unsourced and should probably be removed.

It would be interesting if there were some scholarly evaluation of this document as representing the views of a particular culture, but as presented it appears to be the ambitious opinion of a single author. UNESCO Delhi funded this, but gives no evidence of peer review or oversight, even an editor's name. What would be (to use Masculinity's term) "dangerous" would be to accept Masculinity for boys as a reliable source. / edg ☺ ☭ 02:43, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Masculinity is convinced that there is an International Gay Conspiracy, which is really, to confuse matters more, an unwitting part of a wider "heterosexual" conspiracy to construct rigid separation of gay and straight identities in both Western and non-Western cultures. It is therefore 'dangerous' for those who promote this ideology on Misplaced Pages to have this fact revealed. Supporters of this gay/hetero ideology therefore have to 'suppress' the evidence. In fact there are many genuinely good sources that do discuss the legitimate aspects of the issues to which he is referring, but in a balanced and measured way, without resorting to wild hypoerbole and conspiracy theory. We have already included these here and it would be good to be able to progress on this without having efforts at NPOV destroyed by the promotion of fringe theories. I wonder if this issue would be worth raising on the Fringe Theories noticeboard? Paul B (talk) 09:12, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Edg, again, we as editors are not supposed to give our own opinions about the references if they come from a valid source. If the cultural values of others seem idiosyncratic to you -- and if these 'idiosyncracies' are being given a place in a UNESCO publication, and is widely being used in a specific culture, then you have to give repect to it, and live with that 'idiosyncracy', till you discredit it using a valid platform. Misplaced Pages is not a valid platform to discredit a UN document.

Also, this is not an academic work, so there is very little academicians can do to discredit this. You don't need peer-review of books in this field. Your credibility is judged by the platform that supports you, and agencies that use your work, and this book is doing excellent on those counts. This is based on action research and social work, and only through this platform can this book be discredit, which is almost impossible, because this book is based on solid ground level facts.

Then again, there are numerous other sources provided for things quoted from this book, which are scholarly works, the references from this book are only used as empirical evidence to back up those more academic sources, which I guess is perfectly valid. There might have been an issue, if this was the only source used, and things claimed in this book were countered by other scholarly references or even unsubstantiated by them, which is not the case. Whatever is said in the quotes taken from this book has been reverberated by several other important academic works.

(124.30.94.10 (talk) 05:50, 31 March 2008 (UTC))

If it's not already obvious, I should point out that 124.30.94.10 is user:Masculinity, not a separate editor. Paul B (talk) 09:12, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Tend to agree with the above. --Haemo (talk) 03:31, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Paul, your personal vendatta against the book is clear from the your baseless accusations against the book/ author. Had the author been misogynic, UNIFEM would not have included his book or his name on their website, nor would they use it in multitudes of programmes they conduct with men.(Masculinity (talk) 05:16, 31 March 2008 (UTC))

Is this still being argued ?! Lets compare how this report compares to an unarguably reliable publication from UNESCO.

Hope this establishes what a reliable publication from UNESCO looks like, and curtails further arguments along the lines, "UNESCO is a reliable source" . Clearly these two reports represent two extremes on the reliability scale, and as is the consensus of all uninvolved editors above, the "Masculinity" report fails wikipedia's WP:RS guidelines and is not an acceptable source for wikipedia (and that judgement is independent of the WP:REDFLAG issues raised by its content). Abecedare (talk) 06:56, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Mazin Qumsiyeh on qumsiyeh.org

Is Mazin Qumsiyeh and his personal website http://qumsiyeh.org a reliable source? Jayjg 21:56, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

He is an activist a board member in the "Association for One Democratic State in Israel/Palestine" which is a political advocy group who work to undermine Israel's right to exist Zeq (talk) 10:34, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Or, of course, he is a tenured scientist at Yale who happened to write a book praising a particular solution to the Israeli-Palestinian issue apparently favoured by a fifth of Israeli citizens. Whatever. Either way, not a particularly notable figure for this problem, though his website claims he has written "over 30 op-eds" on the issue, and his book was published by a well-known publisher, though one with a distinct "socialist" POV. Quotable whenever that particular POV needs to be expressed, I suppose. For facts, not so much. Relata refero (talk) 20:29, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

No way.

1) he was never tenured at Yale, he was merely on the clinical research faculty 2) he was fired, for sending racist political messages over his Yale email 3) he was a professor of genetics, which gives him no authority on foreigh affairs 4) several of his op-eds were followed by published corrections on the editorial pages that ran the op-eds, because his facts on palestine are bad American Clio (talk) 15:29, 30 March 2008 (UTC)American Clio

Unless you cite all that except 3, I'll have to redact it from this page per WP:BLP. Relata refero (talk) 18:04, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

How about this for (1) and (3) (Associate Professors are not tenured at Yale)? (2) and (4) may have some basis here. rudra (talk) 19:14, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Addendum: "racist" seems to be charges of Anti-Semitism in a campus brouhaha . rudra (talk) 19:30, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

(ec)Associate Professors can be tenured at Yale. See this internal report. Whether or not he is, I don't know, though he might very well not be. (Update: according to the Herald, he wasn't at the time of the brouhaha.)

About the Yale Herald report, he sent "an e-mail to a Yale anti-war group listing the membership roster of the Yale Friends for Israel and labeling it a pro-war cabal." If that's a racist political message.... *Sigh*. People seem to think that if they use words like "racist" to describe things like that its OK with our policies. Whatever. Since this page now has the actual facts on it, I don't need to redact American Clio's edit, though this sort of thing is par for the course with him/her. (Note 4 is still open.) Relata refero (talk) 19:37, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

documenting the corrections newspapers have had to print after publishing a Mazin Qumsiyeh op-ed. http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=22&x_article=1019American Clio (talk) 20:50, 30 March 2008 (UTC)American Clio

There was another flap about Qumsiyeh's bad facts. Here Professor Klaus Schwab, Founder and Executive Chairman of the World Economic Forum , calls Qunsiyeh's writing anti-Semitic :

Anti-Israel Screed in Official Magazine of Davos Forum

Update: The head of Davos apologized and indicated that the viewpoints in the article were contrary to Forum's mission and values. More

_________________________________________

New York, NY, January 25, 2006 … The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) today condemned the publication of an outrageous anti-Israel screed that appeared in the official magazine of the World Economic Forum in Davos, and urged the organization not to give legitimacy to such extremist approaches in the future.

The article, "Boycott Israel" by Mazin Qumsiyeh, an extremist anti-Israel activist, appeared in the current issue of Global Agenda, the official magazine of the World Economic Forum meeting in Davos, Switzerland. Qumsiyeh is the head of Al Awda, an organization that supports terrorism and advocates for the abolition of Israel.

"The article is full of outright false statements about Israel, Zionism and Israeli policy towards the Palestinians and crucial omissions regarding the situation on the ground, Palestinian attitudes and actions, and Israeli public support of Palestinian statehood," said Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director. "Moreover, it is permeated with anti-Semitic insinuations of Jewish craftiness, control of the media and American and international policymaking."

In a letter to Klaus Schwab, Founder and Executive Chairman of the World Economic Forum, ADL called positions presented by Qumsiyeh, "…well beyond the scope of acceptable discourse."

"We find it hard to believe that Global Agenda would include an article calling for the dismantlement of the United States, or that the Davos meeting would convene a panel questioning the legitimacy of Egypt, Venezuela, or France," Mr. Foxman said. "Yet, Mr. Qumsiyeh's denial of the State of Israel's right to exist and his appeal for international actions to counter the state and Zionism – bald calls for the elimination of Israel – are given legitimacy through the imprimatur of the World Economic Forum." http://www.adl.org/PresRele/IslME_62/4852_62.htmAmerican Clio (talk) 20:56, 30 March 2008 (UTC)American Clio

• The Yale e-mail incident, acccording to the Yale Herald:

Sat., May 24, 2003, Mazin Qumsiyeh, an associate pro fessor of genetics at Yale, sparked a controversy that is still raging.

GETTY IMAGES Qumsiyeh's email puported to show an overlap in student membership in a group which the war in Iraq and one which supports Israel.

After many students had already left for the summer, Qumsiyeh sent an email to all Yale Coalition Peace (YCP) members, an anti-war group, in which he linked Jewish support of Israel with support for the then current war in Iraq.

In the email, Qumsiyeh wrote that "the U.S. occupation of Iraq illegal and immoral (sic)" and that the YCP should "continue to challenge the hegemony of the U.S. on the Arab world." Although such opinions are certainly acceptable and even welcomed at a university that encourages the exchange of ideas, Qumsiyeh closed his email with a chilling statement: "I include here the list of members of Yale Students 'for Democracy,' the pro war cabal . . . I think you will find the list informative. Note that there is significant overlap of this list with the 'Yale Friends of Israel' listserve."

Qumsiyeh then listed the Yale email addresses of 64 students, which contained students' full names, whom he claimed belonged to Yale College Students for Democracy (YCSD), a group that supported the war in Iraq.

However, the people he listed belonged not to YCSD, but to the Yale Friends of Israel (YFI) itself.

http://www.yaleherald.com/article.php?Article=2377

the articl econtinues. The reason why this was widely viewed as an expression of anti-Semitisam is that Qunsiyeh accused Jewish students who belongec to a pro-Israel group of being automatically pro-Iraq War. But, Anti-Semitic or not , it certainly demonstrates the Qumsiyeh plays fast and loose tithe fatcs and evidence.American Clio (talk) 21:05, 30 March 2008 (UTC)American Clio

Relax, it was decided long ago that he wouldn't be used for facts.

Meanwhile, CAMERA again. I suppose them being all over the conflict of interest noticeboard is unsurprising. I'm beginning to think that 90% of our problems would go away if we just banned all these damn quotefarms and advocacy sources, all these op-eds and opinions and articles based on "controversial" terms. I'm sure its beginning to bore everyone to have to make the same comments about the same type of sources all the time. So: listen up people dealing with Israel/Palestine/Islamophobia/Anti-semitism: CAMERA, MEMRI, CAIR, PalestineMediaWatch, Electronic Intifada, are all unwelcome as sources, OK? Any articles structured around their quotefarms are likely to have major, unfixable POV problems so nobody do that either, OK? Not to mention that they are unreliable sources even for quotations, OK? And just because I've left Abraham Foxman and Juan Cole and Robert Spencer and suchlike others out that doesn't mean that you can add their random opinions either. Nobody here should care what various partisan hacks think, because they're completely unencyclopaedic, they're advocates, not analysts, and nobody will care what they thought a hundred years from now. Is everyone now clear on this? Relata refero (talk) 23:18, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

The CAMERA article collects instances where newspapers that have run Qumseyah's op-eds have aubsequently run corrections of bad facts cited by Qumsiyeh. American Clio (talk) 11:58, 31 March 2008 (UTC)American Clio

And nobody is suggesting we use him for facts! But meanwhile, can everyone just lay off quoting CAMERA, who are as unreliable as everyone else, plus they're using us to host their theories and quotefarms! (Note - minus the CoI this applies to all the other advocacy sources mentioned above and elsewhere on this page and the archives. The reason they are here all the time is that they are all crap. Relata refero (talk) 12:11, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Bruce Dixon or www.blackcommentator.com

Are Bruce Dixon or www.blackcommentator.com reliable sources regarding Israel? Jayjg 21:56, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Hmm... I don't know about reliability... but my Norton anti-virus flags it as a potential scam site (in fact, including a link to it made Norton flag this page as a potential scam... removing the "http:" prefix seems to fix that problem). For this reason, we should probably disallow it. Blueboar (talk) 13:30, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Dunno about reliability, either, but it's a site for advocacy of afro-american rights, so it will be very biased and POV when treating those topics --Enric Naval (talk) 14:54, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

It is clearly advocay site of more than just one subject. Zeq (talk) 16:39, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Oooops, you are right, I misread their "about us" page. Well, anyways, it makes no claims for fact checking, only for advocacy, so it still wouldn't be reliable --Enric Naval (talk) 18:14, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

That's an interesting question you've raised, Jay, but it has no bearing on the dispute which you are presumably referring to. The original wording, over at Allegations of Israeli apartheid was, "Some critics who use the analogy extend it to include Arab citizens of Israel," citing Dixon as one such critic. The current wording is, "Several critics, including Bruce Dixon." Thus, it is not a question of whether Dixon is a reliable source for facts on Israel, but of whether he's a critic who uses the apartheid analogy wrt Arab-Israelis, which of course he is. And the source in question was a reprint of the Dixon article on the much better known and respected Electronic Intifada, the largest Palestinian news site which the Jerusalem Post calls the "Palestinian CNN," rather than the obscure www.blackcommentator.com - you kept editing EI out and blackcommentator in. This posting is typical WP:GAME-ing behavior, I'm afraid, of the sort which has plagued AoIA for some time now. <eleland/talkedits> 00:45, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

On the contrary, Eleland, it's quite relevant. If a "critic" is non-notable or non-reliable then we don't quote him or use him as a reference, it doesn't mean we throw WP:V out the window. Why on earth would we care what Bruce Dixon's opinions are regarding Israel? I'm sure you could find a thousand blogs that say all sorts of negative stuff about Israel, but they don't go in the lead of Misplaced Pages articles - or are you now proposing that we can also use David Duke as a source for the lead of the article? After all, he too says "It is racial Apartheid, in fact, far more draconian than the Apartheid of South Africa, for at least the Blacks were given in theory the right to self-rule in their own homelands." (see www.davidduke.com/general/the-hypocrisy-of-jewish-supremacism_12.html) As for Electronic Intifada, that's the site the Jewish Telegraphic Agency calls a "cyberpropaganda" site which "may contribute to a better understanding of the Palestinian cause," but "is too biased to be of much use to mainstream publications" - it is not a "reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." There are a couple of "good enough" sources for the purposes of the claim in the lead already, adding inappropriate sources really doesn't help. And your posting is the typical WP:GAME-ing and policy abusing behavior, I'm afraid, of the sort which has plagued AoIA for some time now. Jayjg 03:43, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Let me get this straight: you're comparing one of the longest-term critics of the DLC and former colleague of Barack Obama's to David Duke? Relata refero (talk) 07:55, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I have no idea who Bruce Dixon is, that's why I brought him to this board. Is he notable? Is he a reliable source? What's your view? Jayjg 01:26, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think he's a reliable source, though he may be a valuable opinion for a particular sort of of thinking. But the point is that if you compare people about whom you know nothing to neo-Nazis reflexively, nobody is likely to take you very seriously. Relata refero (talk) 08:19, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Good thing I don't "reflexively compare people about whom you know nothing to neo-Nazis" then, isn't it? Jayjg 03:03, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Wait, David Duke isn't a neo-Nazi now? Relata refero (talk) 23:20, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Mu. Jayjg 00:15, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, if you want to exclude all "cyperpropaganda sites" from Isr-Pal articles, it's an interesting proposal. But clearly this is not what you're proposing.

Nobody is claiming that EI is a reliable source for contentious claims of fact. We want to include its attributed commentary. The JPost reviewer praised EI. The JTA reviewer criticized it while acknowledging that it is useful for understanding the Palestinian cause. Lots of sources are criticized by other sources, often in much harsher terms than the JTA used. For example, the editor-in-chief of Ha'aretz dismisses CAMERA as a "McCarthyite" group issuing "tendentious statements and comments" not worth responding to. Yet you're currently arguing to have an entire article built solely around one article from CAMERA, and you've never argued to delete citations to MEMRI, JewishVirtualLibrary, etc. This is WP:GAME par excellence, and your lamebrained mimicry and non sequitors about David Duke don't change that. <eleland/talkedits> 11:51, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

You are making a distinction that is nowhere reflected in actual policy; if a source is not reliable, then we can't use it, even for opinion. For example, here an editor argues that we can use Stormfront as a source, not for fact, but merely for their own opinion regarding the race of ancient Egyptians. However, as a number of other editors later pointed out to him, if a source is unreliable, then we don't quote its opinions (outside, perhaps, its own article). Misplaced Pages doesn't reproduce the opinions of non-notable, non-reliable sources - or at least it shouldn't. Also, the source for this claim really is Bruce Dixon, not Electronic Intifada, but in any event, are either noted for third party fact checking? Regarding the Ouze Merham article, the last time I added a source to the article it was the Chicago Sun Times. And, in my personal experience, Electronic Intifada is significantly less reliable than CAMERA, but that's just my personal experience. Regarding MEMRI, you keep claiming they're particularly unreliable, but you have singularly failed to prove it As for the Jewish Virtual Library as a source, I don't know why you're bringing it up - I don't recall having any discussions about it recently. In any event, people can certainly disagree about the relative reliability of sources (obviously no source is 100% reliable 100% of the time, while even a stopped clock is correct twice a day), but there's hardly a need for this vitriol and rancor about it. Finally, if you don't want to have your own words fed back to you, I'll make you a deal; stick to discussing whether or not sources are reliable (which is the purpose of this board), instead of insulting other editors, and I won't mirror your words back to you. Fair enough? Jayjg 01:26, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

IS there somewhere where I can !vote in favour of Jay's proposed exclusion of all cyberpropaganda sites? Relata refero (talk) 12:04, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

What is the term used to describe falsely attributing a proposal to someone who hasn't actually made that proposal? I believe it's trolling, isn't it? In any event, if you are indeed keen on removing all cyberpropaganda sites, here are several hundred articles you can start on: Jayjg 01:26, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

No, Jay, its called a "joke" in this context. Look up the word if unfamiliar with it. That was also a joke. And believe me, I remove CounterPunch wherever I find it unless it is hosting an article by an avowed expert. (Though I don't see how it is cyberpropaganda, merely biased. Also the difference between MEMRI/CAMERA and WorldNetDaily.) May I point out that accusations of trolling and diverting attention from the subject in this manner are not generally considered good practice, to put it mildly. Relata refero (talk) 08:19, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't "diverting attention from the subject; if anything, your proposal to "!vote in favour of Jay's proposed exclusion of all cyberpropaganda sites" was. And of course, my reference to "trolling" was a "joke" in this context, exactly as your statement was - and just as funny! Jayjg 03:03, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Singh

In article Singh one user name User:Gurkhaboy is making up names and Not providing Refs for Claims. User does not seem to be educated in that field and is making up names. see Rajputs used Kumar and Kumari and that Gurkhaboy is Making up Names like Kunwarani which does not make any sense and not related at all. --99.237.254.25 (talk) 03:39, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

• It would probably be better to discuss this on the article's talk page at Talk:Singh. This noticeboard is for judging whether certain sources are reliable enough to use as references. But if no reference is provided, there is nothing to judge. All editors involved with the article should be expected to provide references for the claims they insert into the article. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 08:59, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Rotten.com

I'm looking for some feedback about rotten.com, specifically its library section, regarding whether it's a reliable source.

It seems to me that this falls under the category of self-published websites. While the site is reasonably popular and has been mentioned in various newspaper articles, the library articles are written by an unknown person and there is no evidence of or reputation of fact checking and such. A question: how exactly do we go about distinguising between a popular website which is not considered reliable, and one which is? (Such as slate.com) --Xyzzyplugh (talk) 17:52, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

If it's for a "pundit" reference or external link for some pop-culture topic, that's one thing. But not for BLP articles. Which article was this in reference to? Squidfryerchef (talk) 02:39, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Any article, actually. I've removed the rotten.com references from about 50 articles. If it's basically nothing more than a self-published website, then it isn't acceptable as a reference for any article, other than Rotten.com itself. Or so I believe. If a rotten.com webpage says "Ronald Reagan liked to wear green socks", why is this any more reliable than if I put up a geocities webpage claiming the same thing? --Xyzzyplugh (talk) 10:10, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe Rotten.com is self-published. While citing Rotten is not the same as citing the Wall Street Journal, I feel that it is appropriate to use in some areas. For example, the "teabagging" article cited both a book and Rotten to back up some punditry about teabagging happening in some movie. The book was citation enough, but the Rotten article seemed to function as a "footnoted external link" providing additional perspective on the topic. Squidfryerchef (talk) 23:41, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, Murdoch fired all the people at WSJ who knew what they were doing, so WSJ has more in common with Rotten.com than it used to. - Dan Dank55 (talk) 18:28, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

If Rotten.com is not self-published, then who publishes it? From what I can see it is particularly unreliable. Regarding Slate.com, this is an indication as to its reliability and editorial stance. Now, what do we know about the editors of Rotten.com? Jayjg 03:37, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

According to our article on it, it's published by "Soylent Communications". At any rate, it appears to be a "them", not a single author. That said, it might not be reliable on every topic, but if all you want to use it for is snarky comments about a movie, i.e. "The humorist website Rotten.com characterized Rochelle, Rochelle as 'X, Y, Z'", I don't see a problem with that. It's like citing MAD Magazine as a source. Squidfryerchef (talk) 03:30, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

No, in this case, there doesn't appear to be any semblance of reliability or editorial oversight - to the extent that we don't even know the name of the author or authors. Soylent Communications is not a publisher, it's a web-hosting service - and it too is completely anonymous, leading back to a Post Office box. Your comparison to Mad (magazine) is not apt; we know exactly who publishes Mad, who the editors are, who the writers and illustrators are - in fact, most of them are fairly famous, with their own often lengthy Misplaced Pages articles. Rotten.com is essentially an anonymous personal website, practically the worst kind of source imaginable; it should not be quoted anywhere except in the article about Rotten.com, and even then with extreme caution. Jayjg 03:43, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

From the article on Soylent, "It is also the hub of several websites maintained by the company." It sounds like they are more involved with the content than simply hosting the web site. I also don't believe there's anything wrong with having anonymous or pseudonymous authors. Squidfryerchef (talk) 04:01, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

It "sounds like" they are more involved with the content than simply hosting the web site? Enough speculation. We know nothing about Rotten.Com, not its authors, not its editors, not who publishes it - nothing at all. It is an anonymous personal website, period, and completely unsuitable as a source for anything. It's the same as using http://www.bushisantichrist.com/ as a source - except that http://www.bushisantichrist.com/ is probably a better source than Rotten.com, since we at least know the author is "R. Stephen Hanchett". Please review Misplaced Pages:V#Self-published sources (online and paper). Jayjg 04:10, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Fan translated games

In an attempt to resolve a dispute for classifying fan translations we were trying find 3rd-party sites. Would a site like this one meet the criteria?Jinnai (talk) 05:53, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Does it have any fact checking methods used to prove its reliability? MythSearcher 05:19, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Looks like there is at least some attempt through forum posting and some referencing to other pages. It also possible, and quite probable, some of it came from 1st-hand experience by going to the website, downloading and installing the patch. Not sure if it's up to the level you would consider good enough though.Jinnai (talk) 07:01, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I am no expert of this, as you can see, it is the first time I came here. However, the site seems to be a self-published source, in which, it lacks enough fact-checking in terms of usual wikipedia standard. However, the terms are in the grey area if you ask me. It is not the most reliable source, yet it is obvious that if the steps were followed, one could verify the facts in a very easy manner. So it might not be most reliable, but at least it is verifiable. (If what you say here is true.) The problem might then move foward to is it notable or not. MythSearcher 08:02, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I believe it might meet the qualifications of presumed under WP:N, though it's hard to say.Jinnai (talk) 16:48, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think notability really factors into it. The games we're talking about it all have spawned anime, which is enough to make them notable... we just need to be able to show that an English translation exists, per WP:V. — PyTom (talk) 03:27, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

What do you think of the legality issue and whether such a site, that provides links to game hacks and unauthorized translations for distribution, meets WP:COPYVIO. Collectonian (talk) 16:55, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

The legality of the patches without games has still to be decided. Those that supply the game along with the patch, or a patched game, are an entirely different matter. We had this discussion on the WPT:WP:A&M page. Also, as this is the only site really with a published source that isn't primary or a forum, it's why I posted this one.Jinnai (talk) 17:04, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

WP:COPYVIO isn't the policy here, WP:EL is. And I'm not sure it applies to a site that merely links to sites that violate copyrights. Where does that end? (Is there a way to cite a website without linking it?) — PyTom (talk) 03:27, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

WP:EL shouldn't really apply here as I intended to use if as a source material, not a link, if possible. But yes, the site does not directly link to the the patches, just the sites. So if this site shouldn't be used simply on that basis, it would be nice to know how many links removed a site needs to be since it's theoretically possible from some of the sources to simply link-jump to much more blatantly illegal material here.Jinnai (talk) 06:18, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

As an aside, the one-step away is the reason all AniDB links were removed. They didn't link directly to the files, but to the fansubber groups and pretty much said "want illegal fansubs, go get here." The difference here is Jinnai argues that no court case has actually deemed patched or hacking a game to translate it is illegal, so the same rule doesn't apply. Irregardless, though, as Pytom pointed out earlier, the site also completely fails WP:RS. Collectonian (talk) 15:32, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I believe is does fall under self-published soruces as per WP:V. The only exceptions might be #2, but I believe #2 was refering to the claims themselves being contriversial in their PoV, and no one here is claiming that their is an issue with neutrality of the site. As long it is used strictly for citing that these works exist and their progress, nothing else.Jinnai (talk) 17:51, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Self-published applies to the official sites and documentation, not a directory site, like that link appears to be. Collectonian (talk) 18:01, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Can you show me where? I read all the section of questionable sources and saw nothing that says the site cannot be a directory. Just that it had to meet specific criteria, which it does.Jinnai (talk) 02:19, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Could also be covered by expectional claims, ie "...apparently important claims not covered by mainstream sources;" which mainstream media would never cover. Whether it is important or not, is, I will admit, highly debatable, but important is to some extent dependant on where you are and who you ask. Certainly to everyone at large this might seem trivial, but for the English gaming community this might seem important.Jinnai (talk) 02:24, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

No, it can't as it isn't a necessary claim to make at all. The site still fails WP:RS on all levels. Collectonian (talk) 18:30, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

WP:RS is not policy. WP:V is. And everything on that page meets the standards of Misplaced Pages's verifiability for self-published sources as posted. Mainstream media won't cover this and this site atleast attempts to have a level of independent review on it, plus it's quite easy to verify this oneself as pointed out below. There is a reason reliable sources isn't policy, but only a guideline.Jinnai (talk) 17:12, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

One article where this has been coming up is at Tsukihime. I'll note that nobody here is disputing the existence of the translation. One can easily verify it by going to the translator's web site , the list of visual novel translations , and news sites devoted to the topic. So I think the question is, what should we include in the article to source the statement "An unofficial translation patch for Tsukihime was release on November 5, 2006."? I'll note that this has nothing to do with the notability of Tsukihime, which has been established by it spawning both Manga and Anime. — PyTom (talk) 19:09, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

the film itself

For the purposes of propagating an actor's filmography, can the film itself (a primary source) be used as a reliable source the that actor's work? — pd_THOR | 16:10, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Also, how pertinent is the accessibility of the source? If a film itself is referenced as a source for a fact, are others expected to rent the video (if available) to corroborate that sourcing? — pd_THOR | 16:23, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

For a blunt statement of fact as to whether an actor appeared in a given film... Yes, the film itself can certainly be cited as a source. This looks like yet another misrepresentation of WP:PSTS. I can not stress this enough: WP:PSTS states quite clearly that Primary sources are allowed in Misplaced Pages... They have to be used with caution, and there are limitations in how they can be used, but there are acceptable uses of primary sources. This is one of them.

As to accessibility... The fact that someone might have to rent the video to verify the citation does not matter. The ease of verifiability is not reason to disallow a source (an apt analogy is having to go to a bookstore and purchasing a book to verify a citation). Nor is cost (Misplaced Pages articles often cite to pay-to-view websites, and even public libraries may require paying for a library card to access material). What matters is that it can be verified. Indeed, assuming that the film is not rare, and is available at the average film rental outlet, it is actually likely to be more accessible than many print sourses that are cited. Blueboar (talk) 17:47, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't stating that as a primary source, I didn't think it acceptable; contrarily, I came here asking such. However, if a reliable secondary source is available as opposed to using the primary, that is much preferred then? Also, is there any mechanism to prevent the false citing of unavailable primary sources aside from two editors arguing that "it is there" and "no, it's not" ? — pd_THOR | 18:05, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Secondary sources are definitely preferred, if there is one. As as to your second question, it depends on what you mean by "unavailable". Is it "unavailable" because you can't find it right now (by, say, a quick google search)? Is it unavailable because in it isn't in the average library/film repository or book/video store? Is it unavailable because there are only two copies in the entire world and they are both in private collections? What do you mean by "unavailable"? Blueboar (talk) 13:33, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Say somebody has cited a primary source for a hard fact; to use my above question: citing a film to say that somebody performed in it. If I can't find that film available locally (my Blockbuster or Hollywood Video doesn't have it) and I can't corroborate that fact otherwise, should it just be left alone? Or is there a tag or something that can affects saying "this was cited by one user, but could not be corroborated by another"? — pd_THOR | 14:21, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

{{verification needed}}? — the Sidhekin (talk) 14:32, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Exactly what I was looking for, thanks! — pd_THOR | 14:40, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I suppose that tag might work, although I think it is meant more to indicate that a statement needs to be verified rather than a request for the citation to be checked. If you do add a tag, I would follow it up with a comment on the talk page explaining what you are looking for (a third party to obtain the film and look at it), and when you add the tag include an edit summary pointing to that talk page discussion.

Remember that WP:V does not say that something has to be verifiable by any one particular editor (ie you) ... simply that it has to be verifiable. There are a lot of ways to do this... if it is rentable somewhere, if it can be purchase somewhere, or if it is publically available somewhere it is verifiable. Have you thought about asking the editor that wishes to include the information where he obtained his/her copy of the film? Blueboar (talk) 17:19, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Sure, I rented it first from Netflix, then I bought it from Amazon.com. This is not such a rare film. See here. For An Angel (talk) 23:06, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

A reliable newsgroup posting

Newsgroup postings are considered lower than dirt as a reliable source here on Misplaced Pages. I think this case is an exception to the rule. In late 1994, the Intel Pentium FDIV bug played out mailing list and in the newsgroup comp.sys.intel. The posters were acoumplished scientist and engineers from major companies. While Intel was claiming the bug was minor, the readers of these newsgroups found out how serious the defect was. (I followed the posting at the time and was amazed at their quality.)

Tim Coe, a FPU (floating point unit) designer at Vitesse Semiconductor, read the reports of the Pentium division errors and was able to reverse engineer the cause of error. He wrote a C program to predict the errors. He did not own an Intel CPU, so he went to a local computer store to check his results. His error predictions were correct. He posted his results on the newsgroup, comp.sys.intel, on November 16, 1994.

• Tim Coe (1994-11-16). "Re: Glaring FDIV bug in Pentium!". Newsgroup: comp.sys.intel. Retrieved 2008-03-24.

The original newsgroup posing can be found on Google groups. Here is a web site that has a good copy of Tim Coe's posting and some other valid links.

His work was reported in the technical press at the time and here is a report from the MathWorks newsletter.

• Moler, Cleve (Winter 1995). "A Tale of Two Numbers" (PDF). The MathWorks News & Notes. The MathWorks. Retrieved 2008-03-24.

Tim Coe later wrote a paper in the peer reviewed journal, IEEE Computational Science & Engineering

• Coe, Tim (Spring 1995). "Computational aspects of the Pentium affair". Computational Science & Engineering, IEEE. 2 (1): 18–30. doi:10.1109/99.372929. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help) "The Pentium affair has been widely publicized. It started with an obscure defect in the floating-point unit of Intel Corporation's flagship Pentium microprocessor. This is the story of how the Pentium floating-point division problem was discovered, and what you need to know about the maths and computer engineering involved before deciding whether to replace the chip, install the workaround provided here, or do nothing. The paper also discusses broader issues of computational correctness."

Can the Tim Coe's original posting to the newsgroup, comp.sys.intel, be used as a reference?

-- SWTPC6800 (talk) 02:28, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

It appears that Andy Grove, the Intel CEO, responded to this newsgroup. -- SWTPC6800 (talk) 03:17, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I've already commented over at Talk:Pentium FDIV bug, but I don't see any need to suspend our usual disapproval of forum postings as sources. If any reliable sources actually reprinted the forum postings, it would be OK to use the reprinted versions. The notability of the people who posted doesn't make Usenet into a reliable source. EdJohnston (talk) 03:31, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I was thinking of saying that Tim Coe wrote a journal article based on his findings that he originally posted in the internet newsgroup, comp.sys.intel. Andy Grove, President of Intel, wrote a big check to refund the customers and also posted a response to the newsgroup, comp.sys.intel. The article could explain how this was an early case where the internet allowed customers to force a large corporation to admit to a defective product. The newsgroup was an important factor and was reported in the press at the time. The current article has the vague statement that the problem was "verified by other people around the Internet". It doesn't name them or give details of how the problem was verified. -- SWTPC6800 (talk) 03:51, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

If these events lead to papers being published and press reports, citing the newsgroup seems entirely unnecessary. Vassyana (talk) 18:33, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I got a copy of the IEEE Computational Science & Engineering paper today. In a sidebar, the journal editor states how important the internet was in uncovering the Pentium bug. The article mentions several specific posts to the newsgroup by various individuals. For example, "… reporters for major newspapers and news services had Xeroxed copies of faxed copies of Moler's posting." The newsgroup "comp.sys.intel" was part of the story. "At the height of the frenzy a month later, over 2000 messages a week were being posted to comp.sys.intel." All of the facts about the newsgroup posting can be referenced by traditional reliable sources. The 2 or 3 most significant posting themselves can be noted with a proper citation, {{cite newsgroup}}. -- SWTPC6800 (talk) 01:28, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

There is precedent for using professional mailing lists as references. If the details are otherwise confirmed by reliable sources I see nothing wrong with referencing the USENET post. It's a primary source. Squidfryerchef (talk) 03:35, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Travel sites

Hi. Are references to tourism sites whether they be the likes of Fodors or Frommers, government tourism sites such as www.goisrael.com - an Israeli government site, or www.visit-tlv.com - a municipal site, or sites such as www.TravelGuides.com or www.telaviv-insider.co.il good enough to cite about sites or cultural events etc/general facts about the city. To what extent can they be used? Thanks. Flymeoutofhere (talk) 09:58, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, they are reliable by or rules. However, they do have limitations. We have to remember their purpose, which is to give a very quick overview of the site and events discribed, and to encourage tourists to visit them. They will gloss over many facts (especially negative ones), and editorial review may not be the best. If information listed on a tourism sight is contrary to what is stated in more scholarly works, we should defer to the scholars. Blueboar (talk) 14:04, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Flymeoutofhere (talk) 14:42, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Etymologocial sources

Sometimes it's hard to find the etymology of words, especially in a (suitable?) online format. OED is a paid subscription. I'd like to submit the following two sources for scrutiny on reliability:

• The Word Detective: often posts his sources for etymology research.
• Online Etymology Dictionary: several sources are given with full disclosure. Yngvarr (c) 12:04, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

The fact that the OED is pay-to-view is irrelevant. The Word Detective site seems reliable due to the fact that it is an online version of collumns that are published in various newspapers. Since we would be able to cite the printed collumns, I see no reason to challenge the on-line version. Online Etymology Dictionary is questionable... it is a personal web-project run by an accademic. The reliability would thus depend on the reputation of the author. I would say that to use it, you would have to establish that the site has been reviewed or cited by reliable third parties, and that they found it to be accurate and reliable. Blueboar (talk) 13:56, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

The only reason I mentioned that OED is PPV is that it makes it harder to get a cite. Off the topic, how does one get a cite for something to which they don't have access? I hope I'm not coming across snide, that is not my intention, but that's a hurdle which I've bumped into many times already, and I haven't found a solution.

As for the second site I listed, the Online Etymology Dictionary does have a Misplaced Pages entry which lists some of the places it has been cited. I know Misplaced Pages isn't a reliable source of itself, but the sources in that article are. I also checked Google books and a number of cites appear for the site (no pun intended). I won't list them, unless some examples are requested. On second thought, maybe I can just cite them in the article given. Yngvarr (c) 14:10, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

OK... having taken a look at the article, and the reviews mentioned, it probably can be considered reliable. As to your question on "How does one get a cite for something to which they don't have access"... Options are to get access (ie subscribe), find someone who has access and ask them to cite the material, or look for another source. If you are planning to do a lot of editing on Etymological topics, it probably makes sense to subscribe to the OED (it is considered the best)... but that is up to you. Blueboar (talk) 15:06, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

V2rocket.com

Is V2rocket.com RS? Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 12:57, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I get a "site does not exist" error message when I search for it (on both Google and Yahoo), which leads me to think that it is not. Did you put the correct link info? Blueboar (talk) 13:42, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes. My confusion here is that the site has no scholarly text. Which is why I think it may not be RS. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 14:07, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

The link works for me. Anyway, it's your classic good-looking site that unfortunately provides zero information on who wrote what, what their sources were, and whether any kind of review is exercised. If you'd very much like to use the content from that page, I'd suggest you email the guy who maintains the website, and ask him what his sources were. Someguy1221 (talk) 14:14, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Use of rickross.com and religionnewsblog.com as external links/convenience links

(The following has been transferred from WP:AN as per the request of User:Durova.)

A number of Misplaced Pages articles currently link to rickross.com and religionnewsblog.com. With respect to rickross.com, talk page consensus on Talk:Prem Rawat a few weeks ago was that the site appeared to be in breach of WP:EL#Restrictions_on_linking:

Material that violates the copyrights of others per contributors' rights and obligations should not be linked. Linking to websites that display copyrighted works is acceptable as long as the website has licensed the work. Knowingly directing others to material that violates copyright may be considered contributory infringement. If you know that an external Web site is carrying a work in violation of the creator's copyright, do not link to that copy of the work. Linking to a page that illegally distributes someone else's work sheds a bad light on Misplaced Pages and its editors. This is particularly relevant when linking to sites such as YouTube, where due care should be taken to avoid linking to material that violates its creator's copyright.

Our concern was based on rickross.com's copyright disclaimer:

rickross.com: "All META tags, page titles, keywords and other content descriptions used throughout this website are only intended to assist search engines for research and locating purposes. This in no way, shape or form is intended to mislead anyone by implying any official representation and/or relationship exists between this website and the owners of any trademarks, service marks and/or copyrights, which may contain the same keywords and/or titles." ... "Any publisher, Webmaster or news service (i.e., official and legal holder of copyright) that objects to their material being included in this archive may request that it be removed and/or that future material be excluded. An official written and signed request sent via fax or regular mail made by the copyright holder and/or their legal representative on company or legal letterhead will be honored."

Some of the material hosted on rickross.com is for sale online by the legitimate owners. Example:

Religion News Blog has been mentioned as a similar case; in particular, this subpage was proposed on the Prem Rawat talk page as a suitable external link. Here too it seems that copyright owners' permission is not routinely sought:

"Religion News Blog includes copyrighted material the use of which may not always have been specifically authorized by the copyright owner."

The Religion News Blog also carries a rather large amount of advertising.

Please advise to what extent these two sites should be linked, or existing links to them removed.

Note that the Prem Rawat article is also subject to an ongoing Arbitration Case (Prem Rawat arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)).

Jayen466 17:02, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

• Rick Ross is a commentator frequently referenced by others, so I don't see we should have a problem discussing what he says in context and attributing it to him, with links to his site to back that up. The blog looks to be a link to avoid, on the face of it. Guy (Help!) 17:48, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

• • Thanks for your feedback. I understand the point about quoting Rick Ross himself. However, this is not at issue; the copyright question arises because of the large number of press articles and other copyrighted material hosted on the site, evidently without a proper process of seeking permission from the owners. Instead, the Disclaimer page states that rickross.com will take down any copyrighted material if the copyright owners complain in writing. Rather than licensing the material, as required by WP:EL, this seemed to me to shift the onus from the site operators to the copyright owners. In other words, the onus is now on the owners (1) to become aware of the infringement and then (2) to write in to ask for their material to be taken down. As it is, the status of any document hosted on the site seems unclear; it may be the case that the owners are aware of their material's presence on the site and do not object, or it may be that they are not aware (yet) and will complain at a future date. At any rate it seems to me that where the same material is available on the legitimate copyright owner's own website (e.g. nytimes.com), it would be preferable from a copyright point of view to link to the copy at nytimes.com, rather than the one held at rickross.com. Jayen466 18:03, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

• Hmmm. My usual take on sites that play fast and loose with copyright is to exclude on principle, but here we have a notable individual who may be quoted as an authority. It should not be a problem to link to that content which is unequivocally Ross' own, attributed to Ross, if a compelling case can be made for the relevance of his opinion. Better, of course, to link to a reliable secondary source that describes Ross' views and places them in context. I am not a fan of primary sources in biographies, other than the subject's own site as a source for uncontroversial facts. Any copyright violating material may not be linked, period. Guy (Help!) 18:22, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Starting at the top of the list of WP articles linking to rickross.com, what would be your view on this link, present as ref. 1 in Kenja Communication (permalink: )? I wasn't able to find the article on the Daily Telegraph website (note that this is the Australian Daily Telegraph, not the UK one), although there were articles on the subject present there (and hosted for free). This specific article, however, did not seem to be there. Now, what to do? The thing is that I believe many editors consider rickross.com a very valuable resource, which often has detailed material not available elsewhere. Jayen466 18:34, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Looking at the citation on Kenja Communication, I see the problem.

The citation is worded: "Secrets of sect in sex case. The Daily Telegraph, The Rick A. Ross Institute of New Jersey (May 25, 2006). Retrieved on 2007-02-08."

It should be worded more along the lines of: "Secrets of sect in sex case by Brad Clifton, The Daily Telegraph, Syndey, Australia May 25, 2006 - as hosted on: www.rickross.com, Retrieved on 2007-02-08."

This would make it clear that the Rick Ross site is being used as a convenience link to the Daily Telegraph story, which is the actual citation. Now... the question becomes: is Rick Ross's site an allowable convenience link? Does he need permission permission to reprint the story that appeared in the Daily Telegraph, and if so does he have it? If the answer to that is that he did need permission, and did not obtain it, then his site can not be used. We must omit the link to Ross and simply cite the Daily Telegraph without the link. This obviously requires someone double checking to make sure that the story in the Telegraph actually exists and says what Ross said it did... but this should not be all that difficult... I am sure that we could find a Wikipedian who lives in Sydney and whould be willing to go to a library and check the May 25, 06 Telegraph for us. If Ross does not need permission to reprint the story... or if he does, and obtained it... then there is no problem. Blueboar (talk) 19:05, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

The (Australian) Daily Telegraph article exists and is correctly quoted on the Rick Ross website. I confirmed that through a Lexis-Nexis search; it appeared in the "Local" section on page 13 in the State edition. Is there any suggestion/evidence that Rick Ross misquotes attributed news articles, or is it only a matter of him (possibly) not having licensed the copyrighted content ? If it is the latter, the solution is simply not to link to his site as a convenience link for hosted newsarticles. Abecedare (talk) 19:33, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for checking and verifying the article's existence. There is no assertion that I am aware of that any news articles on rickross.com have been misquoted. There may be a quibble as to how selective the choice of articles hosted is; this on the Prem Rawat overview page for example appears to be a record of a couple's divorce proceedings, with the only link to Rawat being the fact that one of the couple had once, years prior to the marriage, been a follower of Rawat. This article reports on the opening of an enquiry, and there is no corresponding article reporting on the enquiry's findings (which appear to have been that the organisation was in order, from checking the UK charity registration website). But this may partly reflect the fact that newspapers and courts tend to focus more on negatives than on positives. The scholarly Dupertuis article also present on the Prem Rawat page was, I believe, actually written by a follower of Rawat's. So far the consensus seems to be then – do not use either of these sites as a convenience or external link, but verify the articles' existence and credit them (and link to them, where possible) directly. Jayen466 20:38, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

The consensus you state makes sense to me. Does the Rick Ross website have any original content ? If so there may be a case for using it as a referenced source or external link in some cases; if it only hosts links/extracts from news sources, then it is advisable to cite them directly (after verification), and use rickcross.com only as a convenient resource for editors (as opposed to readers.) Abecedare (talk) 20:52, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I haven't found much material on the site that to my mind would qualify as an encyclopedic source. I think most of the texts on the site are taken from elsewhere. Plus there are the pages where Mr. Ross is offering his services to worried families. But I agree with the principle that any original material on the site written by Mr. Ross or his associates could and should be linked to, if it's pertinent to a topic covered in WP. Jayen466 21:05, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

WP:C. Do not link to material that violates copyright. Cite the original source, and if it's not online, too bad. we are allowed to cite treeware, after all. Guy (Help!) 18:40, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

<deindent>
One final thought for now: It may be a good idea to email Rick Ross (info@rickross.com) and ask him (politely) if he has licensed the information on his website and if he can provide an OTRS verification. We may be able to short-circuit this whole debate if he replies in the affirmative. Any volunteers experienced in the process ? Abecedare (talk) 21:13, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Considering the wording of the disclaimer and the absence of copyright acknowledgments I think it highly unlikely that any such licenses exist. I get the feeling the database of news articles is really designed to bring in customers, because looking for original material by Mr. Ross on the site I realised that rickross.com is also a commercial site, offering expert witness and intervention/deprogramming services complete with hourly rates: as well as selling DVDs and soliciting donations . All of which makes me less inclined to consider it a suitable source for linking to in WP articles. Jayen466 22:10, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

My view is that whenever possible, we should link to original sources. However, if those sources are hard for an average person to reach, then also linking to existing excerpts or full copies on the web is reasonable as long as we believe the copies are uncompromised. The owners of newspaper archives presumably are aware of the web, and I'd expect that they see no value in going after people promoting their work, especially when those people have a scholarly purpose in doing so. Respecting the property of others is certainly important, but I don't believe we must respect someone's property more than they themselves do, especially given the centrality of verifiability to our work. Thus, I'd consider both sites an acceptable backup source for linking. William Pietri (talk) 23:38, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, let's thrash this out. Well over a hundred articles link to the site; if these links are to be removed (or redirected to legitimate sites), there should be a good reason to start this work, and it should be backed up by solid community consensus. Personally, I don't see how these sites can be compatible with the copyright policy outlined in WP:EL#Restrictions_on_linking and Misplaced Pages:Copyrights#Linking_to_copyrighted_works. In addition I have the feeling that the purpose of both sites mentioned here is not just scholarly, but also commercial; and if the above reasoning by William Pietri (talk · contribs) were to be applied to any site that infringes copyright, then there would be no copyright-infringing sites on the net at all. Because then we would have to assume that the ongoing presence of such material on a site generally implies the legal owner's consent. Any other views? Jayen466 00:39, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

For the record, this is to say the least not the best characterization of the Rick Ross site links. Rick Ross is a well known expert on groups that many consider cults with huge publicity budgets churning out uncritically reviewed material. The purpose of these Rick Ross links and similar sites devoted to such groups is to provide a ready reference to hard to find published information on many such groups, not to sell services. Misplaced Pages's restrictions on critical external links have become such that original, critical material by Rick Ross would not be suitable because it is critical, and now you want to restrict linking to Rick Ross as well because he even collects information on these groups although the claim isn't that the information isn't sourced and there is zero chance of derivative liability for Misplaced Pages. Meanwhile, you can't even put in an article a general statement that critical information can be found on the internet anymore because advocates will demand that you provide anm attributable source for even that or it is "original research", which is absurd. The fallacy here is that there simply isn't a large body of scholarly, NPOV secondary sourcing, only a large amount of primary soured proponency and much less secondarily sourced, published material, simply due to limited interest, and Misplaced Pages simply doesn't function well in such niche areas. Misplaced Pages's increasing inability to address the underlying problem with NPOV in such cases by keeping these articles limited in scope for balance results in almost every article on such groups presenting a skewed view. This is just another "cure" that will make the problem worse. Not much point in editing Misplaced Pages anymore. Bye. --Dseer (talk) 03:10, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Although I don't know much about religionnewsblog.com, I disagree strongly that a substantial purpose of rickross.com is commercial. The Rick Ross Institute is a registered 501c3 nonprofit. I am of course not saying that any infringing of copyright is ok, but I am saying that there are cases where copyright owners may find non-profit use of limited amounts of their work acceptable and even welcome, and that this is plausibly one of those cases.

We should certainly try to be good citizens and follow the law, but we are not obliged to act as copyright police or to take hard-line positions on IP, especially when it would reduce the quality and verifiability of our encyclopedia. When we have no more official option, linking to web-posted copies of referenced articles on legitimate non-profit sites is not illegal, does not hurt the commercial value of the original work, and is beneficial to us and our readership. I believe we should continue the practice as is. William Pietri (talk) 04:53, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I was going to weigh in here, but after reading the most recent above comment by William Pietri (talk · contribs) (as well as his previous comment), I don't think I could have said it any better than that. Cirt (talk) 10:26, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

As to newspapers' copyright policies, here are the relevant pages from the New York Times website: There is nothing there to indicate that unauthorised reproduction of their articles on websites like the ones discussed here is welcomed by them. The same applies to Associated Press: and I believe most other newspapers. In my view, the fact that editors like or applaud the work that the owners of a particular website do cannot be material here: that is an argument that would be open to any editor, with any site they link to. As regards the not-for-profit status of the Rick Ross Institute, Mr. Ross does use the rickross.com site to advertise his professional services and those of his associates, as outlined above. An American Professor of Sociology has described rickross.com as an "entrepreneurial lone ranger attempt to solicit customers". I still think that linking to the newspapers' own websites, where this is possible, is preferable and more in line with WP policy, and that simply referencing the article without the link (possibly with a note in the ref that the copy cited was found on rickross.com) is the right thing to do in those cases where the article is not available any more on the publisher's own website. Interested users can still find the article online by googling for its headline. Jayen466 14:29, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

That nonprofit institutions take in money is not proof of commercial activity; every nonprofit takes donations, and many sell DVDs and services. Your quote is from 2003 and about the late 90s, and so appears to predate the creation of the nonprofit. If you think the Rick Ross Institute is violating its nonprofit status, you should talk to the IRS, not a Misplaced Pages noticeboard.

If you've spent any time in a large American corporation, that newspaper has no lawyer-written policy approving web posting of excerpts or articles should be unsurprising. But that doesn't mean that they actually mind their material being re-used as a non-commercial public good. Standards in Germany may be different, but in the US, the doctrine of fair use is an extension of the core of copyright: a limited, temporary grant of property rights to promote the creation and publication of intellectual works. Rick Ross is probably within the legal and moral boundaries of that, and we certainly are. I agree that referencing the original newspaper whenever possible is the right thing to do. However, when I weigh reduced verifiability against a token gesture of extreme deference to a publisher that may be perfectly happy that people are using and discussing their work, I feel that verifiability wins out. That is especially true given that, as Dseer points out, rickross.com has articles about organizations that in many cases work very hard to present and promote a one-sided view of themselves.

And just to be clear, I'm not saying that Rick Ross is necessarily a reliable source on anything other than the views of Rick Ross. He's clearly partisan, so I don't think he personally should be cited except in a "critics say" kind of way. But if he's the only guy with a web-accessible copy of a text that we are citing, we should not place unnecessary barriers in the way of verifying Misplaced Pages articles based on those texts. William Pietri (talk) 19:49, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I am quite certain, judging by the Disclaimer quoted above and the sort of material hosted, that rickross.com does not operate within the realms of fair use. Just try getting one of these NY Times articles that he hosts uploaded to Wikimedia Commons with a fair-use rationale and you'll see what I mean. Re your concern for WP:V: my suggestion is either to link to the publisher's website or to omit the link to rickross.com, but state that the copy of the article viewed was that found on rickross.com. That should be done anyway – see WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT. (I don't know what the status is if the copy viewed and cited infringes a copyright – perhaps we'd have to raise this in another forum.) In either case, then, verifiability would be ensured. Readers either get the original article, on the publisher's website (preferable in any case), or they can look for the article on rickross.com, since our reference tells them that we found it there. As for the site being non-commercial, I don't think you understand that Mr. Ross makes his living as an "intervention specialist" or deprogrammer, and as an expert witness in court cases. In other words, these pages advertise the professional services by which he makes his livelihood. So in what sense is the site non-commercial if it advertises his commercial, for-profit services? Surely, the business idea is that people surf to the site to read up on the group that a member of their family has joined, and then at least a small proportion of them will click on "Getting Help", where Mr. Ross's services are available at the quoted prices. See Duck test. Jayen466 20:23, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

No offense, but the determination of fair use is made by judges, not by Misplaced Pages's policies, which are and should be much more stringent than what is legal in the US, which in turn may be stricter than what a particular rightsholder allows. That someone makes a living at a non-profit endeavor does not make it suddenly for profit, and neither does providing services. Most educational institutions, for example, are non-profit, but certainly charge money for services, and just as certainly provide a living to their employees. Do they put up their websites partly because the will attract paying students? Surely. But that alone does not mean they are suddenly a for-profit institution, or that other material on that site would suddenly fail the first part of the US fair use test.

Making readers and editors go the extra step of searching the web for a reference whose location we describe doesn't benefit anybody, and it harms the encyclopedia. If we are going to use the article and say where we saw the material, then we should link to it. William Pietri (talk) 23:42, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, I can follow your reasoning, but there remains the fact that the links to these sites appear to be a clear breach of our above policies. And the same argument could be made for any other site hosting unlicensed public-interest material. I've left a note on Misplaced Pages talk:Copyright problems to see if we can get some editors with a clearer understanding of WP copyright policy to comment on the matter. Jayen466 00:36, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

• Comment Many news websites have links and advertisements to items they do not own the copyright to, or host items for sale. They are still acceptable on Misplaced Pages. However, if an item is a blog, it should not be allowed, except as opinion (and chances are this is reflected in legitimate news websites). I believe the policy deals with things like linking to excerpts of Harry Potter on a website that does not have permission to use it. If the text that you are linking to is rightfully used by the website, then it should be okay. If not, well, there you go. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:02, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I think this is a pretty straightforward situation. If a website illegally hosts infringing material, we should not link to them. Policy makes this clear (Misplaced Pages:Copyrights#Linking to copyrighted works, among other places). Additionally, simple legal realities preclude us from linking to such sites. Contributory infringement requires both a reasonable belief that the infringing party should have known the material was in violation of copyright (which is apparent for news "scraping" sites of any sort) and a material contribution to the infringement (which linking from a top ten website would almost certainly qualify). IANL, but a law degree is not required to see why linking to such sites should be vigorously avoided. Vassyana (talk) 05:31, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Since Misplaced Pages is largely affiliated with the open-source community and copyleft, I think we should clarify here: F*** copyright law. People seem to pull out claims of copyright infringement in content disputes, just to push their point-of-view. I.E., a while back, some images I'd uploaded to Misplaced Pages were deleted by some annoying people because I used copyrighted Misplaced Pages logos, in the images. Thus, they argued, "That's in violation of copyright." Yes, but is Misplaced Pages going to sue itself? Is anybody going to somehow use my images, pulled from Misplaced Pages, in a way that harms Wikimedia financially? Later, I found images which had done the same thing, elsewhere (used copyrighted Misplaced Pages logos in images uploaded to Misplaced Pages) which remain untouched. Sometimes, Wikilawyering actually involves real laws, not just made-up ones.

So, the relevant question isn't, "Is this in accordance with the letter of the law?" but rather, "In reality, will Misplaced Pages get sued?" The second question is particularly important since the government itself often ignores the law and the answer to the second question is no. The legal culpability for linking to another website which violates copyright law is minimal, if not entirely non-existent. Much less, the legal culpability for the Foundation, which delegates editing responsibility to the community is minimal, if not non-existent. Technically, it could be argued that knowingly linking to a site which knowingly links to a site which knowingly links to a site which infringes on copyright is "copyright infringement," but such a ridiculous argument would be thrown out of court. The internet, period, is rampant with copyright infringement. The only way to completely avoid this would be to avoid secondary sources, especially sources like blogs and self-published websites. WP:Copyvio (and all policy, period) isn't like legalist dogma which we pedantically follow, literally, because we all somehow think policy was somehow written on stone tablets, by God, or we have some kind of undying love for copyright law. It's simply practical, pragmatic steps we take to keep Misplaced Pages functioning and to avoid getting Wikimedia sued. In this case, Wikimedia is not going to get sued from citing Rick Ross and I suggest e-mailing the Foundation for clarification, if you're still concerned.

With that said, what Rick Ross and religionnewsblog.com do could certainly be construed as fair use. If a company thinks they're infringing on copyright, they can issue a DMCA takedown provision very easily and Misplaced Pages will respond accordingly. Until then, this is just wikilawyering, literally. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 15:41, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

This has to be the most sensible post I've seen on this topic - thank you Zenwhat. Orderinchaos 22:44, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Reproduction of entire works for public distribution is not anything close to fair use. However, it is classic infringement. You may wish to say f*** copyright, but copyright is a reality and numerous people depend on it for a living (writers, artists, etc). Is there a good chance we won't be sued? Sure. Does that make violating the law or encouraging the theft of someone else's work correct? F*** no. Also, contributory infringement for linking directly to infringing works is not an obscure technicality unlikely to result in court enforcement, but rather a legal reality upheld by courts in the United States. Vassyana (talk) 16:35, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

In this case, I believe that rickross.com is not doing anything illegal or morally wrong. First, copyright is not an absolute right, and not all copies are illegal, as section of the law on fair use makes clear. As the US Constitution says, copyright exists, "to promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts". Further, not all uses of somebody else's property are crimes. When the neighborhood children sit on my porch after school, they are indeed on my land, but if a neighborhood busybody called the police for trespassing, I would be outraged. We certainly shouldn't link to people who are engaging in wholesale, for-profit violation of actively marketed intellectual property, and I think nobody would suggest otherwise. But there is a complicated spectrum here, from obvious piracy to sharing abandoned works to educational fair use to simple quoting. We must be responsible citizens, but equally we must not be extremists or prudes. William Pietri (talk) 16:14, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Wholesale copying for broad distribution is not even remotely close to fair use and asserting otherwise is simply ludicrous. I agree there is a whole spectrum of use involved in using copyrighted materials, but I disagree that the use by rickross.com constitutes anything but obvious wholesale infringement. Vassyana (talk) 16:35, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Then it's a good thing I asserted the opposite. Sorry if my writing was confusing, but "wholesale copying for broad distribution" is one end of the spectrum I'm pointing at, and fair use is close to the other end. Rickross.com is far from the ugly end of the spectrum. It is a legally registered non-profit with an educational purpose collecting small portions of the original salable works, and only those portions related to its mission. Those articles bear no commercial ads. They do not charge for access. The value of the original work seems unharmed. I'm no lawyer, but that sounds like fair use to me.

Back in the days before the Internet, any serious public library would maintain files like this on topics of local interest, and would happily let you read and make copies of articles in the files. This is a functional modern equivalent. We should make use of it to increase the verifiability of our articles when (and only when) we cannot link to the original publisher's version. William Pietri (talk) 17:25, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

"Wholesale copying for broad distribution" is exactly what rickross.com does, so your position comes across as more than a bit incoherent. Whole articles are considered single whole works (just as a whole essay or whole short story from a book is a whole work), not "small portions". Since many of the news services charge for archive access, it most certainly is harmful to the value of the original work in those instances. Regardless, there's a big difference between making private copies from legitimately purchased materials (such as your library example) and publishing the material publicly on a website (which is equivalent to handing out thousands upon thousands of copies for free). Also, the for-profit or non-profit legal status of a venture does not affect the status of infringement. It only affects the fiscal culpability of the offending party. Vassyana (talk) 17:35, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

As you'd expect, I disagree that my position is incoherent. AllOfMP3 is the kind of thing I mean by "wholesale, for-profit violation of actively marketed intellectual property". I agree that we should stay far away from that end of the spectrum. If there are articles in the rickross.com database that people are actively trying to sell, then yes, let's link to where they are on offer. But otherwise, I see what he's up to as no more sinister than archive.org, which we happily link to. Indeed, much less so, as his collection is surely less than a millionth of theirs. William Pietri (talk) 19:17, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I believe that there's no real comparison between a web-archive that is cautious to move within the law, has solid academic respect and endorsement, obeys robots.txt and readily complies with the wishes of rights holders, and an advocacy site that republishes news articles without permission. In my own view, your position is logically and ethically flawed (as I've detailed in my responses). Since we are apparently operating on different assumptions and standards of analysis, we will just have to agree to disagree. Vassyana (talk) 19:44, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Note e.g. , and – ? Jayen466 19:49, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Archive.org may be many things, but they (and Google) have not been legally cautious. I know people who worked on it, and they definitely saw themselves as breaking new legal ground. As Lauren Gelman says "The Internet Archive has been involved in the debate over the future of copyright in cyberspace since its formation in 1995." Like archive.org, rickross.com offers to remove any material on request of the rightsholder. The only obvious difference is "solid academic respect" which is not, as far as I know, an excuse under the law for wholesale distribution of other people's copyrighted works. By your own arguments, we should pull both sites; I believe we should pull neither. William Pietri (talk) 20:41, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I think you will find that a lot of people, including Jimbo Wales and probably quite a lot of others don't agree that the criterion should be 'do we get sued'. That is why for example, we respect the copyright laws of countries like Bhutan, even though we are not legally required to (hint: try reading WP:Copyrights). Indeed the very essesence of the copyleft and open source movement is that while the current copyright regime may be flawed, we need to work within it an do our best not to violate it. Nil Einne (talk) 18:18, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

If people wish to change our policy on linking to sites with unlicensed copyrighted materials, they should attempt to get consensus to change Misplaced Pages:EL#Restrictions on linking and Misplaced Pages:Copyrights#Linking to copyrighted works. If people disagree with the copyright regime, they are free to petition the copyright office and elected officials. Unless the policy is changed, links to such sites should be removed without serious debate. Vassyana (talk) 17:42, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I have a strong concern that some editors are using valid copyright concerns to remove ANY links to sites with critical information about religious groups they favor. Red herring arguments such as "they make money off of this website" confirm my concern -- the New York Times makes money off of their website; should we be banned from linking to it?

I think there is a high value in linking to external websites that simply keep tabs of news stories on whatever issue an article is about, in this case controversy over religious organizations. They should include links, or make their own summaries, instead of simply violating copyright of course. It's best is they are scrupulously fair, but it's not necessary (and not Misplaced Pages policy) to force external links to meet all of our very strict requirements, such as BLP, no OR, etc.

How about this alternative to RickRoss.com, et. al.: CAIC.org It seems reasonably fair and a site that summarizes copyrighted material instead of copying it. I know that the word "cult" is fightin' words for some, despite the disclaimer on their front page ("Read This First (disclaimer). Both Cults & Isms are listed here. Not every group mentioned on this site is considered a destructive cult. Some are 'benign isms' — different but not emotionally or socially destructive.") We can avoid that word in any case by simply referring to it as CAIC, and linking directly to the page about a certain group or figure, for example . —Preceding unsigned comment added by Msalt (talk • contribs) 20:16, 27 March 2008

it's not necessary (and not Misplaced Pages policy) to force external links to meet all of our very strict requirements, such as BLP Note http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#External_links Jayen466 01:19, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

This issue has been hashed out at length before, with no clear resolution. See Misplaced Pages:Convenience links. If anyone seeks to remove links to articles hosted on Rick Ross's website they should be sure to not delete the articles as sources - we don't need hot links to use newspaper articles as sources. Instead they should reformat the citation so that it lists the bibliographic information about the article so that interested readers can look up the reference on their own. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:28, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Concerning the fair use rationale, there is a somewhat similar case described here: Fair_use#Practical_effect_of_fair_use_defense Jayen466 20:44, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I have written to the New York Times and Associated Press copyright/permissions departments to seek their advice; when and if I hear from them, I shall report back. Jayen466 20:48, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

After thinking about this further, here's my view. From Misplaced Pages:Copyrights, we are allowed to link to "internet archives", but we don't define what those might be. I can find two obvious ones in use: archive.org and webcitation.org. Both take previously published material and offer it to anybody on the web who cares to ask for it. Both have policies where they will take down material on request. Neither asks for permission in advance. Both are non-profits, and do not put advertisements on the archived material. They do solicit donations and/or offer services. Rickross.com appears to meet all these criteria. Religionnewsblog.com claims to be non-profit, but I haven't confirmed that. They also run ads, but I didn't see requests for donations or offers of services. Otherwise, they fit these criteria. So I would say that both of these sites appear to qualify as internet archives (albeit with RNB possibly closer to the margin) and so should be kept. William Pietri (talk) 16:34, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

For more info: the term internet archive is wikilinked in Misplaced Pages:Copyrights; archive.org has official recognition as a library. Not sure it solves this issue, but there it is, FWIW. Jayen466 17:51, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Ah, excellent point. I was thinking mainly of the US fair use criteria when I was comparing things, as that is the legal hole through which they appear to be driving their multi-petabyte truck. The Internet Archive indeed recently (June 2007) became an officially recognized library as part of seeking some federal funding, so that's indeed an interesting difference. They appear not to have done anything more than they were doing before, however, so I don't think that helps us with a duck test for internet archives. William Pietri (talk) 22:59, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Both archive.org and webcitation.org are automatic (bot) archivers and obey robots.txt and provide information on how to block them via robot.txt. The archive pages precisely and do not reformat or modify pages. They only archive from the internet. Do these apply to rickross.com? From what I can tell, the answer is no. The pages there are 'archived' manually by the site owner (so robots.txt becomes irrelevant), they are reformated for the site, and I'm not even sure if he only archives from websites. I don't think rickross.com is what we mean when we say internet archive. I would suggest if people find stories online that are relevant to an article, they submit them to webcitation, rather then relying on some more dubious website Nil Einne (talk) 18:10, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

There is absolutely no justification to link to sites that repost copyrighted material without permission. None whatsoever. "F*** copyright" might work as the slogan for some anarchist wannabe who doesn't understand the whole point behind intellectual property, but it does not currently and never will fly on Misplaced Pages. With Misplaced Pages as big as it is, if it did start knowingly violate copyright laws as policy, it would get lawsuits left and right -- and deservedly so. DreamGuy (talk) 22:23, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, so far this discussion is more or less stalemated. How would you suggest resolving it, one way or the other? Jayen466 20:01, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

FWIW, I've had a response from the New York Times Permissions Representative at PARS International, short and sweet:

Thank you for your patience as I checked with "The New York Times" legal department.

In all cases, the publisher would prefer to have links directly to the nytimes.com site, all of which is now freely accessible.

Thank you for your consideration of 'The New York Times' copyright material.

(To receive a copy of the mail, contact me by e-mail.) Jayen466 08:35, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I've just learnt that, interestingly enough, Rick Ross has a post in his blog on the man running the "relgionnewsblog.com", "Apologetics Index" and "Cult FAQ" sites. It appears that Rick Ross characterises the man as a fugitive sex offender who runs the sites for profit: http://www.cultnews.com/?p=1636 Hmmm ... Jayen466 21:24, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

RfC on including personal blog in the article on intelligence

See Request for comment on the inclusion of McGrew's blog. Tim Vickers (talk) 19:10, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Sami Omar Al-Hussayen

Is discoverthenetworks.org a reliable soure? My instinct is to say no. Corvus cornix_talk 20:46, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Activist site; okay perhaps to represent a minority view, but not as the main source for an article. (Note that Discoverthenetworks.org redirects to David Horowitz Freedom Center. David Horowitz is widely described as a "conservative activist", "right-wing political activist", "conservative crusader" in mainstream newspapers; on right web (kind of the mirror image of discoverthenetworks.org, it seems :-)), he is described as "far right".) Jayen466 21:31, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Proper link between two sources

I'm working on List of Alpha Phi Omega members and have a question about linking two sources. Documentary maker focused on blacks states that St. Clair Bourne was a student at Georgetown in the 1960s before being expelled for participating in a Sit-in. The list of members of Alpha Phi Omega at Georgetown lists a St. Claire Bourne as a member of the Spring 1961 pledge class. I'm not that concerned about the difference between St. Claire with an e and without an e as the page at imdb shows him with the e, but having done work as St. Clair Bourne. Is this enough to fit the reliable sources for Misplaced Pages given that *theoretically* there could have been two different St. Claire Bourne's at Georgetown University at the same time. Yes, I know that this is *significantly* less likely that two Joseph Brown's there at the same time, but I'm trying to bend over backwards here... Thank You.Naraht (talk) 03:26, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The obituary uses both spellings of the name. However, making this connection feels like the synthesis form of original research to me, and thus should be excluded on those grounds. YiLFS, GRBerry 02:42, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

RS?

Can anyone tell if the following RS or not?

• Bangladesh.com
• Banglavasha.com

I want use these for geographical location related articles. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 09:55, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Using verifiability, it kind fails some tests such as as academic, third party review but it is borderline on is it a mainstream publication , it is definitely is not a wiki. So if I have to use it, I will attribute it. But it should not be used to contradict any facts that are supported by RS sources. Just my opinion. Taprobanus (talk) 23:52, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Further Discussion of the Nation

(clipped from closed thread.)

I suggest we don't. Not on that note. I've just pointed out that McNeil performed a guilt-by-association slur on Pipes in which she got her facts wrong. How this article, or by implication The Nation, can be considered a "reliable source" when their unreliability is proven beyond doubt is beyond comprehension. Andyvphil (talk) 22:23, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Please, we're done discussing this. I judge from a look at your contributions that this is probably related to your efforts at Barack Obama media controversy or whatever that article is, but I think this issue has been addressed. Relata refero (talk) 22:30, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Again, I had just pointed out that McNeil performed a guilt-by-association slur on Pipes in which she got her facts wrong just before your premature attempt to close. This hasn't been addressed. I don't know what Obama has to do with this. Andyvphil (talk) 12:35, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

It was presumably considered irrelevant to the overall reliability of the Nation. What an article on Obama has to do with it is evident by looking at your contributions. Unless you have something new to add, I don't think there's anything further to say. Relata refero (talk) 14:43, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

If you have a serious issue with a particular article that was printed in The Nation, and how it is used in a particular Misplaced Pages article (and it seems you do), then that is something that should be discussed on the talk page of the wikipedia article in question. Go to your fellow editors at the Daniel Pipes article, explain your problems with the McNeil article, and try to reach a consensus on it. If the consensus of your fellow editors is that the McNeil article should not be used... then don't' use it. All we can say at this noticeboard is that The Nation is considered a reliable source. That determination isn't going to change. To continue to beat this dead horse after this determination has been repeated several times by multiple editors is counter productive... and is starting to become a WP:POINT violation. Blueboar (talk) 15:58, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

There are degrees of reliability, of course, not absolutes. The Nation is generally considered reliable, but it's not, for example, a peer reviewed journal. Jayjg 03:10, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Also, I would note that even the most enthusiastic readers of The Nation would not consider it a source that espouses a neutral point of view. The reason I indicated above that it could be used in the Daniel Pipes article was because the article's writer (McNeil) made certain claims about things Pipes had written, which could be confirmed as things Pipes had written from looking at Pipes' own columns. Furthermore, the Nation article was being used to illustrate what Pipes' critics say about him -- not to report neutral facts. It may be that McNeil also stated other claims about Pipes which were not true, but those other claims were not going to be incorporated into the Misplaced Pages article. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 09:04, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

By the way, if a source was intended to be used in Misplaced Pages only to provide neutral facts, then contentious claims in the source would taint the source and make it a poor source to use even for the non-contentious claims. To put it another way, suppose a source said, "George W. Bush was born in Connecticut, has two daughters named Jenna and Barbara, and planned the September 11, 2001 attacks." I would not cite that source even in support of the statement "George W. Bush's daughters are named Jenna and Barbara"; I'd look for another source instead. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 09:13, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

The false claims have in fact been been incorporated in the article, off and on. And should be, since the fact that they are both made and false is relevant context to the other criticisms by McNeil that are quoted. The claims that Pipes is "notorious" and "anti-Arab" are undermined by the double falsehood engaged in by the same author to link him to ethnic cleansing, and that ought not be concealed. Consider if your example had instead read "George W. Bush shirked his duties in the National Guard and planned the September 11, 2001 attacks." Merely quoting the former assertion, arguably merely a POV take on true facts, misrepresents the flavor of the source. The fact that critics in venues as semi-respectable as the The Nation are allowed, unquestioned, to demonize Pipes in ways unmoored to facts is a very legitimate subject in a section dealing with the criticisms made of him. Andyvphil (talk) 22:17, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

For Pete's sake... just attribute the view in the text, as we usually do for reliable sources which have a somewhat subjective perspective. As in, "The Nation wrote X about Y." If other reliable sources have disputed what The Nation said about Pipes or whomever, then the following sentence should read: "But source X said Y." Many literate adults are familiar with The Nation and its viewpoint; those who are not can click on the wikilink and see it described, in the first sentence of the Misplaced Pages lede, as "the flagship of the Left." What's the problem again? MastCell  22:39, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

The problem, again: Actually, McNeil does make "wild, out-of-the left-field potentially libelous claims". She writes, e.g., "Pipes is also a regular contributor to the website of Gamla, an organization founded by former Israeli military officers and settlers that endorses the ethnic cleansing of every Palestinian as 'the only possible solution' to the Arab-Israeli conflict."

The Nation's POV is not what is at issue here. It could be both highly biased and reliable as to facts. But in this case it isn't. GAMLA does nothing of the sort and Pipes is in any case not a regular contributor to GAMLA's website. Since the Nation 's fact checking process was clearly not applied sucessfully to this article this article should not be considered reliable for the truth of any factual claim made in it. That said, the Nation 's website is a RS for the content of the article, and to the extent that the article is mentioned in secondary sources (e.g., claims are made and attributed to it) we can mention its content. But only in the context of supplying the evidence that it is a tendentious piece of crap.(quoting self, 11:11, 24 March 2008 (UTC))

As Jayjg says (what a phrase, coming from me) "There are degrees of reliability, of course..." Blueboar's "All we can say at this noticeboard is that The Nation is considered a reliable source" is nonsense. We can, indeed must, use The Nation in describing the emanations of Pipes' critics, but then we must note that venom directed at Pipes in that venue is not well fact checked. Andyvphil (talk) 23:32, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I request a bit of clarification here from user:andyvphil on why, considering his argument here against the nation as an RS, why he has repeatedly advocated for the use of a Nation article on the Obama campaign page, and why he has reverted back to that version even when other editors' consensus found the text obsolete, if there is such a problem with the Nation? 72.0.180.2 (talk) 22:45, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

As usual, without diffs or specifics it's pointless to attempt to reply to 72etc's vaporings. What text is "obsolete"? Andyvphil (talk) 23:32, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

As usual, you don't seem to realize people can look at your edit history andy... first I want you to deny it happened and then you can have your diffs. this is the Hayes article we're talking about here, in case you're wondering... 72.0.180.2 (talk) 00:47, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I have no idea what you think you've said that I'm supposed to deny. The Hayes article is also a piece of crap, now that you mention it. I've said so before, so it is clear that you haven't been taking things in. Nothing new about that. Andyvphil (talk) 10:35, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Again... The Nation is a reliable source. It is a notable publication with extensive circulation and editorial oversight. It is no less reliable than the New York Times, Newsweek, US News and World Report, or any other major periodical. The fact that it has a distinct political slant does not negate its reliability. The fact that a given article in The Nation may contain statements that are deemed inaccurate does not negate its reliability (the threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is Verifiability, not "Truth"). Thus, it may be used as a source in Misplaced Pages articles.

Now, questions about whether any source should be used in a particular Misplaced Pages article, and questions about how it should be used (for example: should it be used in support of a statement of fact or only in support of a statement of opinion) are legitimate. But these have to be decided at the article's talk page... not here. So... stop being POINTy. Take this argument back to the talk pages of the articles involved. Blueboar (talk) 13:35, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I've already pointed out that what you are saying is nonsense, and repeating it doesn't make it any less nonsense. "The Nation is... notable publication with extensive circulation and editorial oversight. It is no less reliable than the New York Times, Newsweek, US News and World Report, or any other major periodical."? Really? I don't think so. It appears to do very little fact checking of assertions that align with its biases, as shown by the example I've provided. And the Hayes article 72etc mentions also fabulated an importance to a nonentity named Andy Martin, unsupported by any fact, to perform a convenient smear. Do you have any evidence that it does fact checking, or are you just pulling an assertion out of your rear end? Andyvphil (talk) 09:53, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Andyvphil, you've made your point, and consensus appears to be against you. My recommendation is that you accept that and move on. We are all sometimes in a minority of one. Relata refero (talk) 11:16, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

It's hardly as simple as that. The Nation is generally considered a reliable source; however, if the claims in question are highly contentious and provably false in some cases, the author in question an otherwise unknown, and the subject a living person, then the determination is quite different. The standards for articles about living people are considerably higher than the usual Reliable Source requirements. I refer you to the opening paragraphs of WP:BLP. Jayjg 17:43, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

We're all aware of that. If you read the discussion above, you'll see that we are not proposing using it for "provably false claims", so your concern is irrelevant. --Relata refero (disp.) 18:33, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

The question is whether The Nation is a RS for McNeil's highly contentious claims when they are made in conjunction with provably false claims, something it is proposed we not mention. I've already given my answer: "...we can mention content.... only in the context of supplying the evidence that it is a tendentious piece of crap." Andyvphil (talk) 00:30, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that you dont have anythong close to consensus for. Unsurprisingly. --Relata refero (disp.) 19:24, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Robert Latimer

What do people think about the reliability of this court transcript of a witness hosted on Robert Latimer's website? I don't have any reason to doubt its authenticity but would like to know if we should be using it given that I can't actually find it on a more independent/reliable source. --Slp1 (talk) 01:54, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I would say no... nothing indicates that it is a "true" copy of the original. It does not even indicate basic information that will be found on any official transcript... such as the case name or the date. I note that a few lines are highlighted or underlined... this would not be the case on an official transcript. All we can say in an article would be that Latimer's website prints something that appears to be a re-typing of part of a court transcript where the witness said X, and that is definitely not reliable. Sorry. Blueboar (talk) 03:22, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

(the following was posted by IP user 70.66.167.249 in the discussion below... I assume that it was simply misposted and have moved it Blueboar (talk) 21:22, 27 March 2008 (UTC)): If any of you have doubts as to the veracity of the court transcript, you need only to refer to your local library, a place where they have books available for reading by the public. If they don't have it on hand, they will certainly bring it in for you. Any respectable law library, such as McGill University, will certainly have it available.

The problem isn't actually the court transcript, but the copy of it that is found on Latimer's webpage. If someone cites to a verifiable copy of the actual transcript (as might be found in a respectable law library) that would be fine. Blueboar (talk) 21:22, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I actually have access to McGill's law library and it isn't available through them electronically or on the shelves. Not sure where that leaves us. Can I also clarify one additional thing? I believe that for an editor to use the transcript as a source we must actually have seen and verified a reliable version of the transcript, not just that on Latimer's website. In order words, we can't just cite a verifiable copy of the transcript unless we have actually seen that copy in some way (electronically or physically). Is this correct? --Slp1 (talk) 21:57, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Correct. Whoever adds a citation must have seen the document they cite too. That is part of WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT. Blueboar (talk) 22:03, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

From what you are saying, it appears that there is no transcript of the trial and that Dr. Dzus never did testify. Supporters of Robert Latimer just made the whole thing up to fool the public. If that is the case, you should delete all reference to this transcript hoax, and while you are at it, everything else that could in any way be interpreted as favourable to Robert Latimer. If you are going to have a public lynching, which would obviously be your first choice, don't stop halfway :::::— Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.66.167.249 (talk • contribs) 00:02, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

No... this is not what I am saying at all. All I am saying is that we can not use the version of the transcript that is on Latimer's Page, as that version is flawed (it is incomplete and with non-original markings). In all of this, I am assuming that there is a clean verifiable copy of Dr. Dzus's testimony somewhere out there that we can cite to. All we need to do is locate it. Has anyone tried seeing if there is a public record at the court where the trial took place, or contacting a court reporting service? It does not need to be available on line... just accessable to the public. Blueboar (talk) 00:55, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Just to clarify, not just "accessible to the public", but also accessed/verified by the editor who adds the citation to the article, as Blueboar mentioned previously before. --Slp1 (talk) 01:02, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Here is how the information could be accessed, I believe.--Slp1 (talk) 01:08, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

What are you trying to use the transcript for? Primary sources like court transcripts need to be used with great care, particularly on BLPs are they can easily lead to OR, UNDUE etc. You may want to read WP:BLP about the use of primary sources. I would take particular clear if you are trying to advance a position, whether negative or positive, which is not already supported by a secondary source. If the primary source is simply be used to back up the secondary source then fine. Nil Einne (talk) 18:28, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. Actually, I wasn't really wanting to use the transcript for precisely the reasons you mention . However, the IP address was/has been, and to advance a position just as you describe. I have now replaced the unreliable and overused transcript with secondary sources, but I would be glad of any extra eyes on this article, since it has been a bit lonely over there dealing with some clear soapboxing and lack of civility (check some of the edit summaries and archives!) Slp1 (talk) 23:16, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Gothamist LLC blogs

• sfist.com DigitalC (talk) 02:55, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Right... could you explain that a little more please? Relata refero (talk) 12:27, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

If your question is whether we can link to sfist.com in the Gothamist article ... the answer is Yes... In that article, it essentially falls under WP:SPS. The article is (in part) about Gothamist LLC. sfist.com is included in a list of "city centric" blogs that are run by that company. I am not sure if listing all of these blogs is appropriate (it slightly smacks of turning the article into a promotion for the company and its various blog sites), but that is a different issue. If we are going to include the list, it is appropriate to provide a link to each of them as verification that they exist and are indeed owned and run by Gothamist LLC.

If your question is whether sfist.com can be used as a source in any other article, then I would say Absolutely Not. In other articles it falls squarely under our "No blogs" rule and is unreliable. Blueboar (talk) 13:13, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Nothing to add other than to affirm what Blueboar just said. Sfist.com could not, however, be used as a source for other articles. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 15:26, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Wow, Blueboar, how did you read his mind? Relata refero (talk) 18:12, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

It's just another of my psychic Super Powers. No biggie. :>) Blueboar (talk) 20:52, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Relata refero, thanks for the bite. Blueboar, thank you for answering my question, which I apparently could have been MUCH more clear on. DigitalC (talk) 23:19, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The Philadelphia Trumpet

Would The Philadelphia Trumpet be considered a reliable source for a statement on Middle Eastern politics? It is a monthly news magazine published by the Philadelphia Church of God. I have to admit I'm no expert on the PCoG, but my understanding of it is that it is a fairly fringe-y religious organisation (according to a Watchman Expositor profile, it is an "American-born cult" with about 6,000 members -- ). I feel that this would have to be considered a non-mainstream source - what WP:V would call a "questionable source" - and that Middle Eastern affairs would be outside its area of competence. It strikes me as being rather similar to contemplating the use of a Church of Scientology magazine as a reliable source for a statement on Scientology's pet hate, psychiatry. I would be interested to know what others think. -- ChrisO (talk) 00:50, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Probably not the best source - certainly not at the level of a newsmagazine like U.S. News & World Report, or even The New Republic. It does seem to have a fairly high circulation, assuming the figures are accurate. Jayjg 03:21, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I am extremely skeptical of those figures. It seems highly implausible that a fringe magazine for a 6,000-member cult has higher circulation than The Nation, The Weekly Standard, or The New Republic, just to name a few. Cults have a reputation for exaggerating membership and publication figures (with Scientology, for instance, they often buy books en masse off the shelves and then re-sell them, to juice their sales figures). *** Crotalus *** 15:06, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Those figures are extraordinary. 300,000 copies per month for an organisation with 6,000 members works out at 50 copies per member. It's most likely that those reflect free distribution copies rather than commercial sales figures (Scientology's Freedom Magazine works in much the same way - they give them out on the street). Be that as it may, it occurs to me that a good way of assessing its reliability would be to see whether anyone else quotes it as a source; bear in mind WP:V's requirement that sources should have "a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." I've done a search of news archives and Google Books but found negligible use of the Trumpet as a source. The few sources I did find used it mainly as a source on the PCoG, which is fair enough given that it's the official organ of that outfit, though I was amused to see that one source described it as "hopelessly fundamentalist"! It seems to me that if other reliable sources are not citing the Trumpet as a source for information on general issues, we should not do so; I've found nothing that suggests it has a "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." -- ChrisO (talk) 22:13, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

CounterPunch

I've come across a few references to CounterPunch which, I note, has a number of links from article space. I see from this page's archives that CounterPunch's reliability has been discussed briefly before, but I'm unclear as to what the general view is of this source's reliability. Any thoughts? -- ChrisO (talk) 01:00, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

It has a strong political agenda and bias. It's probably about as reliable as FrontPage Magazine, which would be its counterpart on the right. Jayjg 03:24, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

My expsriance froma personal angle: CounterPunch is a valid source for opinions but not for facts. Zeq (talk) 04:19, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I prefer to remove links to CounterPunch unless the individual writing for them is notable enough in his or her own right. Jay's comparison to FPM is apt. Relata refero (talk) 07:33, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

None of these should be used as sources in contentious articles related to political/social topics, unless the author is particularly well known and their opinion is likely to be of substantial interest in and of itself. *** Crotalus *** 15:07, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Blueboar (talk) 15:39, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Exactly how I approach it. Relata refero (talk) 19:17, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Ditto. <eleland/talkedits> 20:20, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Relata refero. It depends on who writes there. In itself it cannot be called a reliable or unreliable source (the same goes for mainstream papers though). One might add that, contrary to what was asserted, it doesn't have a 'strong political agenda', except for those unfamiliar with it, since the views expounded in its pages can not be affiliated with those of any political party. Its regulars include an (ex?) economist who was an undersecretary for the Reagan Administration (e.g.Paul Craig Roberts), former analysts for the C.I.A., libertarians, ex-Wall Street Journal journalists of repute, historians of repute, senior officers of the American military (Col. Dan Smith), many academics, etc. It opens its pages to what are called fringe views, but also to quality analysts from all areas of controversy. It is equally critical of the Democratic Party as of the Republican Party. It has a strong record for quality reportage on certain key issues that has proven, in retrospect, more accurate of the inside-stories in matters like WMP in Iraq, the politics of the war on Terror, and the invasion of Iraq, prescient on the present economic crisis long before 'mainstream' newspapers starting to talk about possible sub-prime problems and the structural dangers of derivatives-trading. It is, yes, highly critical of Israel, but most of that material comes from varied voices within Israel or the north-American Jewish world, from Uri Avnery to Michael Neumann. It does not have a 'line', however, since its regular commentators have disagreed quite vigorously on a one or two-state solution. In short, Counterpunch is what is called a muckraking magazine, hosting a great diversity of prominent critics, academics, writers and journalists, from Diane Johnston, Gore Vidal, Uri Avnery, Ralph Nader, Paul Craig Roberts, Robert Fisk (one of the West's best writers on Lebanese affairs and history), Oren Ben-Dor, Frank Menetrez, Gary Leupp, etc., to name a few off the top of my head. The comparison to FrontPage Magazine, is completely off-key. If it has an agenda, it is in getting informed reportage from around the world that is not on the Front Page, and cannot be qualified as a 'left' wing mirror of a right-wing rag, for the simple reason that many who write for it are far too critical of the ideological or political left to be denominated under that vague and lazy rubric. What applies to it, applies to all sources: a judgement of quality, which can vary as much there as it does in the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times, mainstream papers which have proven to be far less reliable as sources on several major events of the last decade than Counterpunch.Nishidani (talk) 21:18, 28 March 2008 (UTC).

Nishidani's point about the heterogeneity of views and reputations on offer is well taken. I agree, too, that some of the sources most reliable by our standards have shown themselves to be somewhat problematic recently when it comes to the bigger picture. (Read Michael R. Gordon for gory details.) But the difference is that (a) CounterPunch prides itself on heterogeneity and giving space to marginal views; by focusing on the things in which they were right about facts, we would be subject to selection bias, and would not get useful information about the probability of them being right about facts. (b) As a self-defined muckraking magazine, it cannot be expected to hold itself to the same standards of fact-checking and confirmation using multiple independent sources that newspapers we consider reliable by our metric at least nominally honour. (c) As a magazine devoted to heterogeneity of views and reputations, it cannot be immediately assumed that publication in it makes the opinion of the contributor notable by our standards. Its strength as an unaffiliated, "independent" voice is a weakness as far as meeting the criteria here are concerned. Relata refero (talk) 23:25, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Applying the WP:V criteria of having "a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy", is CounterPunch cited as a reliable source by other reliable sources? -- ChrisO (talk) 00:13, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Indeed a good point. In the end, that's all that matters. We must all resist the natural tendency to see publications we agree with as inherently more reliable and neutral (really, any mag that publishes Chomsky, Fisk, and Churchill is left-leaning, and these days paleoconservatives have more in common with the left on major foreign policy issues than anyone on the right). I agree with those above we should only reference an article in this mag and others like FPM if that article's author is notable in his own right (e.g. Chomsky for Counterpunch, Pipes for FPM). - Merzbow (talk) 05:42, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Since when is Daniel Pipes notable in any way similar to Noam Chomsky? Chomsky has a very wide and international notability in several areas of scholarship and political commentary, whereas Pipes certainly does not. Do you mean that within arch-conservative cultures Chomsky is regarded as a wackjob the way that Pipes is amongst those of the far left who even know who is? While I get the similarity here on Misplaced Pages in terms of perceived POV lets not delude ourselves about the notability of minor ideologues (vs. quite major ideologues).PelleSmith (talk) 11:34, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

To quibble a minor issue in Merzbow's point above: Fisk's main output is for The Independent which isn't left-leaning but centre. OK, UK centre = US far left, but we have to live with that. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:50, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Unsure about this source

This source for the material below appears to be on the edge of what may or may not be acceptable for the content. It is a transcript from a radio interview of one of the principals that seems to confirm the content. However the tricky part is the transcript and website appears to be self published by the producers of the radio show that is no longer in operation.

From ME/CFS nomenclatures:

Also Infectious venulitis (IVN), this term was used to describe an outbreak at the Mercy San Juan Hospital in Sacramento, California by Erich Ryll. Source
RS or not? Thanks. Ward20 (talk) 00:59, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

FreeRepublic

FreeRepublic.com is by and large an unreliable source because it is a self-published source (blog). However, it does have a reprinting service where users add articles to the site from reliable sources that they find interesting followed by frequently lengthy comments on the article by the readers of the website. As an example, this link is used as a source in Hindu nationalism. Can the reprints on freerepublic be used as a reliable source, or does the reputation of FreeRepublic and the following comments by the readers of the site eliminate the reliableness of the source. --Bobblehead 05:57, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

• Since the original newspaper and article publication date are provided with the FreeRepublic article, it would be better to find a way to look up the original article (even though it's no longer available free online) rather than relying solely on the convenience link at FreeRepublic. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 07:15, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
• Cite the original source, not the reprint. Misplaced Pages is not a method of increasing web traffic to Free Republic. Jehochman 20:02, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the responses. I wasn't considering adding links to the site (I've been slowly going through the externals links to it and removing them), just ran across a user that was repeatedly adding a link to an article on the site and was claiming it was acceptable to use it, so I came here for clarification. --Bobblehead 23:53, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Linking to copyrighted articles reproduced in FreeRepublic is not allowed because they are copyvios. - Merzbow (talk) 00:49, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Should the site be blacklisted then? Particularly the http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news portion of the site. That seems to be where the reprints are kept. --Bobblehead 01:02, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't see why not. Relata refero (talk) 15:09, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Good idea. I know the site pretty well and even have written on the forum, but I hadn't thought of the problems. If it should be blacklisted, how does that get done?Doug Weller (talk) 06:53, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Note that the topic of FreeRepublic.com came up in the fair use discussions above, under #Use_of_rickross.com_and_religionnewsblog.com_as_external_links.2Fconvenience_links. I believe these are essentially similar cases. Our article on fair use has details of a copyright case against FreeRepublic.com: Fair_use#Practical_effect_of_fair_use_defense (they lost). I would cite the original articles only. Jayen466 08:26, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

FreeRepublic is notably different from RickRoss.com. From my viewing, it appears the RR.com includes the full text of articles, with little or no commentary. FR.com mostly posts excerpts, sometimes with commentary interleaved, and always with highly partisan, non-expert commentary following. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:24, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Further, the problem of FR being used for citations has come up so often that blacklisting appears to be the best solution. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:25, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the commentary adds significantly to the problem, making this a more clearcut case. Jayen466 19:50, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

It's essentially just a forum. It's not a reliable source in any way, shape, or form (like its arch-nemesis, Democratic Underground). - Merzbow (talk) 00:03, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I added it to the blacklist request page back on the 31st, but it still hasn't been acted upon. I just asked for a status check. One thing, www.freerepublic.com itself should probably be whitelisted as the site itself is notable and it should be okay to include a link to the site on Free Republic's article. --Bobblehead 17:02, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Please see my response at MediaWiki talk:Spam-blacklist#freerepublic.com. Blacklisting this, while it may be justified, would take a lot of upfront work, which I have described in my response. --A. B. 19:58, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Dictionaries in general

To what extent are general-purpose dictionaries considered RS with respect to inherently complex topics? For example, in the current insurgency article, several respected dictionaries are used as examples of "historically accepted" definitions of insurgency. My sense is that the space limitations of a dictionary make a definition there much less reliable than a discussion, of the same word, in a peer-reviewed report, journal, or monograph. Is there any guidance here?

Note that I understand that certain "dictionaries" are actually specialized monographs, encyclopedias, or textbooks. Here, I'm referring to things such as Merriam-Webster or the OED. Howard C. Berkowitz (talk) 19:59, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Dictionaries are reliable tertiary sources. We try not to use them too heavily, but comparing/contrasting a couple of dictionary definitions should be fine near the beginning of an article, to explain what a word means. Squidfryerchef (talk) 04:44, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

accesshollywood - Reliable source?

I am just wondering, is it a reliable source? It has lots of users. http://www.accesshollywood.com/ Thank you. --Kanonkas, Take Contact (talk) 01:47, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

You'll have to specify an aspect of it. Some or many of the news items it publishes are in fact republications from reliable sources. Other parts of the site contain blogs (unreliable). Someguy1221 (talk) 02:33, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Ok, what I meant was. Articles submited by their staff, not bloggers. For example, http://www.accesshollywood.com/article/8864/three-rising-stars-land-coveted-high-school-musical-3-roles/ Is this a reliable article? --Kanonkas, Take Contact (talk) 02:46, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, given that access hollywood is itself notable, there seems to be a system of editorial oversight present, and its parent company (NBC) is a reliable source, I'd assume it to be reliable in the absence of strong evidence to the contrary. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:58, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

In the Great Scale of Celebrity Gossip, Access Hollywood is more People Magazine, less US Weekly. Relata refero (talk) 15:08, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

US Supreme Court cases and sourcing issues

There's a debate going on over on WP:ORN (see section "Clarifying Summarizing vs. Original Research" and start reading where it says "I've seen some situations recently") about the manner in which statements about decisions of the United States Supreme Court can or should be sourced. The other editor and I had hoped to attract some outside perspectives on this issue (as an alternative to going back and forth on the article talk pages or simply descending into an edit war), but so far no one other than the two of us has chimed in.

Originally, the argument seemed to be over whether certain kinds of statements, supposedly based on the content of a court opinion in a case, were valid on their own or should be considered "unsourced". That's why I first brought up the question on WP:ORN. Now, though, I'm wondering whether maybe the point at issue would be better characterized as where the line should be drawn between reliable and not-so-reliable sources.

If some people who hang out on this noticeboard might take a moment to hop over to WP:ORN, read what's already been said there on this issue, and offer some guidance, I think we would both be grateful. Or, if people here think that this topic really ought to be discussed here instead and want to move it to this forum, that would presumably be fine too. Thanks. Richwales (talk) 04:21, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Holy Books or Book Summaries

Do Holy Books count as Reference for an religous article and is it possible to insert text straight out of Holy Books and then summarise it into an article ? Or would Actual Pictures from an holy book be listed as an reliable source? i mean the text mentioned in a holy book should have the right to be inserted into an holy article and the text is the absolute truth. so do Actual Text and Actual Photos straight out of holy books become an reliable source or is an Summary Book from somebody else point of view better ? so either Holy Book or Summary of Book from an author which are reliable, Or are the two of them reliable sources? please let me know before i make movements and get into conflicts. --Mohun (talk) 05:54, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

The original text of a religious scripture is a primary source for articles on that scripture, so we would try and avoid using it. Although reliable, the use of "summary" books or other work discussing the scripture in question would be preferred, especially if published by a well-known press. Please see WP:PSTS. Relata refero (talk) 09:08, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

• In many cases, articles about religious subjects need to cite holy books. See, for example, Jesus#Life and teachings, as told in the Gospels, where the point of the section is to describe the narrative of Jesus's life as the New Testament describes it. (This doesn't mean that Misplaced Pages officially accepts the truth of the New Testament -- just that it is relevant to describe what the New Testament says.) Saying that "the text is the absolute truth" is only true for believers in the particular religion -- it is not a neutral point of view. Descriptions of the summary of a religious text may also be useful as reliable sources for describing the teachings of that religion. I am not sure which holy books you are thinking of that contain actual photos, given that most religious texts predate the invention of photography. Furthermore, Misplaced Pages could only use such photos if they are no longer in copyright or if they are freely licensed. If you have a particular text that you want to cite for a particular point, please provide further details and someone may be able to advise you further. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 09:24, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

For the background to this see Misplaced Pages:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#Mah.C4.81mada. Mohun is a sock of DWhiskaZ. Paul B (talk) 12:20, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

"Actual photos" apparently means scans of textual illustrations in books, such as can be seen in this old version of the article in question. This is more than a little dubious. First, since the purpose is to show text, the text can be quoted directly. Second, in this particular case, the "photos" in the source book are of poor quality and possibly not sourced themselves to reliable versions -- for example, this image not only has a typo, it also betrays a non-standard numbering in the "original" source from which the illustration was made for the book. rudra (talk) 14:51, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Corporate Page Problem

Having a problem on this article: Laqtel which is a corporate stub. The article was started as essentially a copy and paste of press releases. I went through and remove most of the corporate PR from the article and trimmed it down to the basics. However two users are constantly reverting the edits. Am I off track here? I can't see any justification (in my mind) as to why the content deserves to be on Misplaced Pages. All it talks about is business transactions and visions, throwing figures in there, with no references what-so-ever. The only reference in the entire article is something I added based on a recent development (where the company got into serious legal trouble). I am questioning as well the motives of those editing the articles repeatedly. Rasadam (talk) 12:13, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Self-published sources are acceptable, though for style - not RS - reasons, the article should not sound too press-release-y. For the other issues, have you looked at WP:COIN? Relata refero (talk) 12:21, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

reliability check

I'm fairly sure that http://www.edbrill.com/ will not constitute a reliable source, but I want third-party corroboration before I take that back to the article. Thanks! — pd_THOR | 13:07, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Looks like a personal blog to me. As such, it is not RS. Blueboar (talk) 15:16, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Another: http://www.metalstorm.ee. Not my cuppa, and I'm unfamiliar; please vet. — pd_THOR | 20:45, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

IMDb - again

Hello, I'd like to reopen discussions on the reliability of IMDb. Whilst posts etc are user generated, the majority of factual edits are first moderated by internal editors. You can't just ADD information willy-nilly, it takes a while, and sometimes your input isn't accepted. Why isn't it considered reliable? Also see: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#y.21m Adaircairell (talk) 13:14, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Are author/publisher bios reliable sources?

I regularly come across WP articles on authors or musicians where the primary source for the info is the author's homepage or the publisher's bio. Often, my online searches fail to turn up additional info or even confirming sources. My question: Is a author bio (particularly one probably written by the author) a reliable source? I debated posting to the WP:BLP/N but this is really a reliability question. It seems to me these sorts of author bios aren't remotely independent of the subject. If the info was republished in a RS like a newspaper or mag article or a valid online source, that would probably work but trusting what is, for all practical purposes, self-reporting?. I have doubts.

I guess my main concern is that there is also a question of notability if they don't have at least some significant RS coverage. Input? Cheers, Pigman☿ 17:07, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

It's not reliable, per se, but you just treat it like any self-published source. Someguy1221 (talk) 18:29, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes. In other words, if it's being used for something like confirming the real name of someone, where they were born, etc, it's probably fine. If it's being used exclusively to support the claim the person won a Nobel Prize, probably not. Nil Einne (talk) 18:35, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Encyclopedias

Hello, does this book 'Encyclopedia of Hinduism' become an Reliable Source ? and if so would there be any rejections for it ? is there an certain company that i could only provide as Ref.

because i noticed in many wiki articles they just have books (not encyclopedias) from authors point of view and doesnt seem to be fair to other books and information that could be provided in articles.

and my libray has many encyclopedias from old books and new books and many different publishers. could you provide me with proper guidelines. --99.237.254.245 (talk) 18:24, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Can you provide some information about the publisher, editors, contributors etc, a link to an online description, or at least the ISBN ? It is difficult to judge the reliability of a source based solely on the title. Abecedare (talk) 18:43, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Sure easily no problem here

Book Name - Encyclopedia International

Copyright- 1974, 1973, 1972, 1971, 1970, 1969, 1968, 1967, 1966, 1965, 1964, 1963 by Grolier Incorporated

Copyright - Grolier Incorporated 1974

Copyright in Canada - Grolier Limited

Encyclopedia International

Includes bibliographies

1. Encyclodeias and Dictionaries

AE5.E447 1974 031 73-11206 ISBN 0-7172-0705-6

Note - Its just One of my Sources for information, and it also covers some areas i will be investigating in and has over 30 books. is it considerd reliable ?

--99.237.254.245 (talk) 20:30, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Well that seems to be a somewhat obscure and outdated tertiary publication that according to World cat is directed towards a "Juvenile" audience. As such it doesn't appear to be an appropriate source for wikipedia. Do other editors want to chime in ? Abecedare (talk) 21:02, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Whats the difference if its based on 1970 or whenever, its still actual Encyclopedia that holds enough information to calim what i need on articles. --99.237.254.245 (talk) 21:13, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

• One problem is that the book you have referenced is the Encyclopedia International instead of the Encyclopedia of Hinduism. In other words, it's a general interest juvenile encyclopedia, instead of a subject-specific encyclopedia as suggested above. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 14:08, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Essentially, my take on it is that an encyclopedia should be where we start our research on a topic, not where we end it. A high quality encyclopedia will have references to show where it got its information. We should read these references and cite them, rather than citing an encyclopedia which summarize them. Good research is a multi-step process. Blueboar (talk) 14:29, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Shofar ftp archives

In the article Nazi propaganda a paragraph was very recently introduced that uses the following as source (text from the reference given):

• German newspaper editor outlining the claims of Polish atrocities against minorities

My question is, is this a reliable source? Can I too use this and similar material to source articles?--Stor stark7 20:12, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

It purports to be a translation of the affidavit by Hanz Fritzsche at the Nuremberg trials. Given that the original source the volumes of Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression, (Washington, D.C.: United States Government Printing Office; 1946. Office of United States Chief of Council) are all in the public domain, I see no reason to doubt that this is an accurate reproduction of the original report. Fritzsche is, of course, a reliable if primary source on Nazi propaganda. Relata refero (disp.) 08:16, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, definitely on both counts. It may be preferable in some sense to link to the Library of Congress (page with pdf) distribution, but the text appears to match. It should, of course, be kept in mind that this is a primary source, but it is certainly reliable and citeable. - Eldereft ~(s)talk~ 23:53, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Are Forbes and International Herald Tribune reliable sources?

As silly as it sounds, I need input from the wider community as to whether Forbes and the International Herald Tribune are reliable sources? There is a long-running dispute on Singapore Airlines where User:Huaiwei claims that The IHT is not an authority in deciding for SIA who its parent company is and in relation to Forbes, The only reliable source on a company's structure is obviously the company's own publications. And they simply do not show such a relationship. If others can look here for more information and provide their input that would be great. --Россавиа 21:03, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

• Yes, they are reliable sources for business topics. If they have published incorrect information, then the company needs to take it up with them and request a correction. Jehochman 21:06, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
• Ditto, in the absence of reliable sources to the contrary, info published by the IHT and Forbes is reliable. If the company's literature contradicts this, include a note to that effect as a caveat. Attribution/transparency is always a good move in sourcing disputes. Skomorokh 23:34, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
• I agree with Jehochman and Skomorokh. Not only are Forbes and the IHT reliable sources unless there is evidence otherwise, but there isn't even a contradiction between them and the company's literature. The company's web site indicates that it is majority owned by Temasek Holdings (Pte) Ltd which is consistent with what Forbes and IHT say. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 01:33, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
• Comment Thanks people. The SIA annual report states the following, Singapore Airlines Limited ("the Company") is a limited liability company incorporated in the Republic of Singapore which is also the place of domicile. The Company is a subsidiary company of Temasek Holdings (Private) Limited, incorporated in the Republic of Singapore., meaning that SIA is the subsidiary, Temasek is the parent, so no caveat would need to be placed, because even the company acknowledges this relationship. --Россавиа 10:23, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

The HistoryMakers

Is The HistoryMakers a reliable source for information about its subjects? TheslB (talk) 03:55, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Specifically, biographical information. TheslB (talk) 19:55, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

A new way to sneak in unreliable sources?

I've been engaged in 'debate' (with someone very heated) about a particular source used for the Baghdad Battery article. The other party involved seems to have written most of the article (he did its 3rd edit) and says he used this source to write it -- see . It's not just that the source is a Swedish UFO web page, it is that the article itself is also very bad. The stuff about its discovery and Gray is well sourced elsewhere, the stuff at the bottom about someone called Thatte is apparently fictitious, or at least I cannot find any references to anything there except the word Maitravaruna which seems to mean priest. I removed it twice and he put it back giving me some abuse. He's now created a new section on "World Wide Web sites that were used by some editors in the construction of this article." which he seems to think gives him carte blanche to add any links he wants so long as he has used them in the past for information. While I'm at it -- some of the other links I'm not sure about. Youtube? http://www.answersingenesis.org? The Unmuseum? And the images - a bit OT here - how do I check whether they are licenced? I'm pretty new here and still coming to grips with what meets policy/guidelines and what doesn't, so any help is appreciated especially as I hope to spend more time improving articles (such as the Terracotta Army one) then sorting this sort of thing out and want to practice what I preach. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dougweller (talk • contribs) 05:59, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

The information in the article from the Swedish UFO web page apparently came from "Teknik i Forntiden (a book in Swedish), by Henry Kjellson and C-A Matsson. Amateur Astronomy and some other articles" (see the bottom of the article), which appear to be reliable sources. You could also try emailing the chairman of UFO-Sweden (Clas Svahn, clas.svahn@ufo.se) and ask if he could put you in contact with the article's author (Anders Persson) so that you can ask where the info about Thatte etc came from. (The article mentions that the Thatte info came from an Indian technical publication called "Shilpa-Sansar". You may want to ask someone who knows Hindi about that publication.)

Keep in mind that the article was originally written in Swedish before being translated to fairly poor English -- it makes a lot more sense in Swedish. I haven't bothered to check what the article is/was being cited for in the Baghdad Battery article or what its relevance is. This is a general comment about the article from the Swedish UFO site. –panda (talk) 22:29, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

YouTube is not considered a reliable source according to Misplaced Pages:Reliable source examples#Are IRC, MySpace, and YouTube reliable sources? You may want to read that essay for additional examples of what are and aren't considered reliable sources. –panda (talk) 17:17, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that the other editor doesn't care. He writes about 'septics' and says "Ignore all rules. Period. J. D. Redding 14:18, 31 March 2008 (UTC)" I'm sure the article on the Swedish site makes better sense in English, but the bottom stuff about Thatte I can't find in English or any other language so it's not exactly Misplaced Pages material or reliably sourced.

How can Matsson, Kjellson and Persson, all involved in UFO stuff, be reliable sources?Doug Weller (talk) 20:23, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Try contacting Anders Persson to ask *where* some specific info you question came from and to find out what his background is. I don't know who Anders Persson is, which also happens to be a fairly common Swedish name, so Googling it doesn't result in anything useful. The sources listed at the bottom of the article aren't specific, that it, it doesn't say that the info about Thatte came from "Teknik i Forntiden" and I don't have a copy of the book to check either.

I assume that "Teknik i Forntiden" is fairly reliable since it is cataloged under "Teknik, industri och kommunikationer" (Technology, industry, and communication) at the library vs books by Däniken, which are cataloged under "UFO". Also, sv:Henry Kjellson was a Swedish engineer interested in ancient technologies. Kjellson didn't write about UFOs, he wrote about how ancient technologies may have been as advanced or more advanced than today's technologies. According to the description of the book at Parthenon, when his book was first published in the 1950s they created some lively discussions in technical publications around the world. (Författarens påstående att tidigare civilisationer tekniskt sett stått på lika hög nivå som vår - om inte högre - gav anledning till livliga diskussioner i tekniska tidskrifter runt om i världen när denna bok kom ut på 1950-talet.) So people seemed to take the info in the book seriously. Having never read the book, I wouldn't be able to state for sure if it is reliable or not.

There is quite a lot of info that doesn't get translated into English that comes from reliable sources. If you question the Thatte info, my suggestion is to (1) find out where that info originally came from, (2) ask someone about the reliability of info from "Shilpa-Sansar" and (3) ask someone who knows Hindi to check a library in India. One place you could try this at would be Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject India

–panda (talk) 17:56, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Email from an official source

Is an email from an official source, in my particular case an embassy or ministry of foreign affairs, a reliable source? Over on the International reaction to the 2008 Kosovo declaration of independence page we're trying to gather the positions of as many countries as possible and since less media-friendly or geographically distant countries do not announce their positions on Kosovo, it's often necessary to email them and ask. I can see this becoming a dispute as it becomes a more common practice for us to do so, thus I seek an opinion from this page. Canadian Bobby (talk) 16:24, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

No, personal emails are not absolutely NOT reliable. What's more it would be a WP:No original research violation to add information gathered from such a source to an article. Blueboar (talk) 17:29, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Blueboar. You can ask the country reps. if the they can point you to published documents (press releases, quotes in newspapers etc) where they have stated their position in the Kosovo situation, and cite those published documents; but you certainly cannot cite any personal communication. Abecedare (talk) 17:42, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Award databases

Is the official website of a sports tournament or a film festival considered to be a primary source as mentioned in WP:PSTS? Can the award database of such a website be used as reference for a featured list about awards?

This issue was raised on Misplaced Pages:Featured list candidates/1928 Summer Olympics medal count by User:Matthewedwards. It does not only involve this list, but also lists that are already featured, such as:

• Golden Globe Award for Best Director - Motion Picture
• Golden Globe Award for Best Original Score
• List of Academy Award winners and nominees for Best Foreign Language Film

My reasoning was the following:

For a sports tournament such as the 1928 Summer Olympics the authority of the organization is decisive in recognizing medals, and therefore I believe that the medal count can be based on these sources.

in which "these sources" refers to www.olympics.org and the official report of the 1928 Summer Olympics, written by the Dutch National Olympic Committee.

I would appreciate your feedback on this issue. Best regards, Ilse@ 10:39, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

To me, WP:PSTS says care should be taken when using primary sources and the information garnered from those should be verifiable by secondary sources, which Misplaced Pages articles "should rely on". Maybe I'm interpreting it wrong, in which case can someone let me know. -- ṃ•α•Ł•ṭ•ʰ•Ə•Щ• @ 13:14, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

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