| Revision as of 17:33, 14 August 2005 editNathan Ladd (talk | contribs)856 edits rv. It has to really be a personal attack. You are removing legitimate comments on your behavior← Previous edit | Revision as of 17:36, 14 August 2005 edit undo67.182.157.6 (talk) argument _ad hominem_ is not "legitimate" moron, it is logical fallacyNext edit → | ||
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| ==Hello== | |||
| == Removing ad hominem attacks == | |||
| Hello, and welcome to ]! We welcome and appreciate your contributions, such as ], but we regretfully cannot accept ] text borrowed from web sites. For more information, take a look at our ]. Happy editing! --] ] 20:27, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC) | |||
| "Many Wikipedians remove personal attacks on sight." -- ] | |||
| :What are you on about, specifically? To what ] text are you referring? -- ] 12:08, 27 July 2005 (UTC) | |||
| == Dot-Six == | |||
| ==Arbitration being considered against Dot-Six== | |||
| Arbitration is being discussed as a remedy for disruption of Misplaced Pages by an anonymous editor known as .6 or Dot-Six. The details are in the page ]. ] 21:10, 1 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| From that page: 6., you should read ] so that you understand what is being suggested. You might consider taking this issue to ] or ], in order to avoid its going to arbitration. ] 08:19, August 2, 2005 (UTC) | |||
| Despite our differences, I am also open to mediation. Would you agree to have this dispute mediated? ] 08:30, August 2, 2005 (UTC) | |||
| {{dispute-resolution}} | |||
| :You mean now jump immediately to the FIFTH STEP (see chart), retain a ] to, quote, "strive to achieve ] through ]" in our content dispute? According to policy (see chart) striving to achieve conciliation through ] concerning our content dispute should have been STEP ONE, instead of you exercising the nuclear option of resorting to an ad hominem personal attack/poisoning the well RfC, shouldn't it? Apologize for so quickly abandoning step one, and cancel that ad hominem personal attack/poisoning the well RfC you posted, then we can return to step one and ] about our differences concerning content, certainly. I think you will find me a reasonable person totally in favor of Misplaced Pages policy, consensus decision-making. | |||
| :Remember, instead of rushing to have straight majority rule, whoever can get out the most votes wins, here in Misplaced Pages content disputes the policy is ] (general agreement meeting everyone's needs): <blockquote>It has been said that true consensus involves "meeting everyone’s needs." Consensus decision-making is intended to deemphasize the role of factions or parties and promote the expression of individual voices. --]</blockquote> | |||
| :Could there possibly be a better example of an individual voice than yours truly, --]? Best regards, --] 19:20, 2 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::...<Ad hominem personal attack by Banno deleted. ] says comment on content, not the contributor]]> ] 20:58, August 2, 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::At no stage has a vote been used, or even suggested, as a solution to this problem. ...] | |||
| :::The only real "problem" here is dispute resolution concerning various content disputes. Banno should stick to that, or not post anything at all here. Banno is simply trying to change the subject, make the character of his opponent the issue, but that is just ad hominem personal attack/poisoning the well. --] 21:44, 2 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :This is absurd. It's like a Monty Python sketch. I have told you many times that I am willing to discuss the dispute privately or mediate through a third party. IRC would be best, e-mail is fine, talk pages are fine. You have ignored every one of my requests, but you continue to complain that we are not attempting "principled negotiation". I would genuinely like to discuss the content of articles with you. ] 01:33, August 3, 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::Is this the five-minute argument, or the full half-hour? ;-) ] 08:18, August 3, 2005 (UTC) | |||
| If you are really interested in following ], and discussing the content, not the contibutor, simply drop this ad hominem personal attack, then go to any of the talk pages and dive in. Let's see if we can make consensus decision making really work here. No hard feelings. People get hot under the collar sometimes and we all make mistreaks. 8^) We're only human. Best regards. --] 05:56, 3 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :Well, it's not within my power to delete the RFC or control anyone else's conduct, but as I've said before I'm willing to give you another chance. So let's start. I have some general questions for you: Should the content of Misplaced Pages's articles always be logically consistent? Even if we are merely describing what someone else believes? There are many irrational points of view in this world. You seem to believe that they should be removed from the encyclopedia. Why? ] 08:55, August 3, 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::You say, "Well, it's not within my power to delete the RFC." I didn't ask that you delete it, sir. | |||
| ::All you have to do to show good faith is remove your endorsement of it, explaining your reason, that you would prefer to return to honoring the policy of discussing the merits of the particular content, not the character of the contributor, as per ]. Then we can discuss content of Misplaced Pages all you want, in the various article discussion pages. Fair enough? | |||
| ::For instance, please take a look at the ] currently being editing into the article on ], that "THE MOST INFLUENTIAL WRITING ON KNOWLEDGE IS the Theaetetus account " attributed to Plato. That is clearly ADVOCACY, which is prohibited. See ]. | |||
| ::Will I see you over there in ] joining me in taking exception to such advocacy? --] 16:04, 3 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ==Proposed truce== | |||
| I pledge to stop commenting on your conduct, and to strike through my endorsement from the RFC, but only under some conditions: That you agree... | |||
| #not to move VfD tags from an article's main page to its talk page, | |||
| #not to remove other users' comments from talk pages, | |||
| #not to remove content from (or attempt to write) policy pages, | |||
| #not to violate the three revert rule, | |||
| #and not to call other users names like "Foolwagon" and "Banana". | |||
| #My last condition is that you sign up for and use a Misplaced Pages account. It is very hard to discuss things with your multitudes of IP addresses. | |||
| Optionally, I will also agree to abide by the ] on philosophy- and truth-related articles, if you do the same. Either one of us may pull out of this agreement at any time. | |||
| How does that sound? ] 20:07, August 3, 2005 (UTC) | |||
| I will take it under advisement, consult with my people, and get back to you the first part of next week, okay? | |||
| Meanwhile, as a show of good faith from each of us, if you will go ahead and strike your endorsement of the RfC, and explain that you agree with the policy that we should be spending our time discussing CONTENT, rather than the character of the CONTRIBUTOR, then I will pledge to try not to accidentally eliminate other editor's comments (due to being too quick on the "save page" button, neglecting to merge my comments properly with those of others), and will try to avoid making typos like Foolwagon for Fuelwagon, and Banana for Banno. Fair enough sir? | |||
| :I do agree that it is best to discuss the content of an article. However if a user's conduct becomes a problem, we have no choice but to discuss solutions. Please consider the terms above and get back to me. ] 00:55, August 4, 2005 (UTC) | |||
| == Blocked == | |||
| You have been blocked from editing Misplaced Pages for 24 hours for removing the VfD tag from ]. ] 18:19, August 2, 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :Come come now, It was not removed, as you allege, it was merely moved to the discussion page where it is supposed to be, per ], right? | |||
| ::VfD tags are always supposed to be on the article's page. Look at every other article which is listed for deletion. As I said before, I'm done putting up with your games (but I'm still willing to mediate). I find it curious that you continue to promote "principled negotiation", while ignoring all of my requests to resolve this conflict amicably. ] 19:45, August 2, 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::You insist, "VfD tags are always supposed to be on the article's page." You are mistaken, ] says it belongs on the discussion page, right? | |||
| :::Also, I resent you characterizing my pointing out why you are mistaken on these various points as "games." That is just more ad hominem personal attack/poisoning the well on your part (in place of limiting your comments to content, per policy, you still persist in comenting on the CONTRIBUTOR instead), isn't it? | |||
| ::::First of all, the page you refer to is for ''categories'' not VfD tags. You were completly wrong in removing it. | |||
| ::::Second, can you please stop saying that things are ad hominem. If you have knowledge in the field of logic and correct argument like you say you do, you should be aware that no attacks which I have seen against you have been ad hominem. Rhobite said that he was done putting up with your games. This is a comment on ''actions'', you playing these games, ''not'' on your character. However, calling someone names ("Bananas" and "Foolwagon" for instance) most certainly is ad hominem. As is calling someone an obscuranist. I looked through your entire response on the RfC and every time you accuse someone of violating ] you are incorrect, they are always commenting on ''your actions''. I challenge you to find a single valid personal attack against you, if you do, I will sternly reprimand the user on his talk-page. Deal? ] 12:23, August 4, 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::::You say, "The page you refer to is for categories not VfD tags" but the page specifically mentions VfD tags as an example of what it is talking about: | |||
| <blockquote>Categories relating to the ] should be added only to the ] of articles. For example, tags suggesting the article is ], or is listed on ] would be placed on the talk page as they are relevant to editors, not an aid to browsing in the way ordinary categories are. Please use <nowiki>{{wpcat}}</nowiki> on the Category description page to show that it is a Misplaced Pages-namespace category.</blockquote> | |||
| :::::So you are mistaken, right? | |||
| ==Arbitration== | |||
| I have commenced arbitration proceedings against you - see ] ] 09:13, August 5, 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ==Blanking Vandalism== | |||
| , | |||
| , | |||
| Please stop removing content from Misplaced Pages. It is considered ]. If you want to experiment, please use the ]. Thank you. | |||
| --] 17:38, 6 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| And | |||
| ] | |||
| This is your '''last warning'''. The next time you vandalize a page you ''will'' be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages. | |||
| Please do not keep undoing other people's edits without discussing them first. This is considered impolite and unproductive. If you continue, you may be ] from editing Misplaced Pages under the ], which states that nobody may ] an article to a previous version more than three times in 24 hours. Thank you. --] 17:47, 6 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| == Notification == | |||
| {{test3}} | |||
| ==]== | |||
| Hi, your edit(s) on the article mentioned above is(are) considered to be ]. Repeated vandalism on Misplaced Pages will result in a ] from further editing. --] 17:41, 6 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| == 3RR == | |||
| DotSix, you have violated the 3RR rule at ]. I am listing your actions at ]. — ] | ] 17:47, 6 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| Your side had more than three, so to be fair, my side should get just as many as your side. | |||
| :Apologies, as of this message, you had reverted exactly three times, not over, so there was nothing to report. But the notion of "sides" is irrelevent. 3RR is for individual contributors, not "sides". — ] | ] 17:51, 6 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :It's now 4 reverts -- DotSix' reversions for today now reported on 3RR, and a link added to RFAr. ] 19:40, 6 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| You are not permitted to vandalise Misplaced Pages 3 times in a day. You are not permitted to do so even once. Reverting obvious vandalism (e.g. blanking an article) is allowed as many times as it takes, whether or not that is more than 3. ] ( ] | ] | ] ) 19:57, 6 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| Nobody blanked anything, moron. Can't you read? It is a redirect to true. 'Truth' is a term derivative of the term, 'true', so a redirect to true makes perfect sense. | |||
| :You have been blocked for 24 hours for violating the ] on ]. When you are unblocked, please do not revert without reaching a consensus. ] | ] 23:25, 6 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| Here is another clear case of ]. Your side got more than three reverts. How long do you ] figure you can continue to get away with such tactics, tactics that are against policy? ] | |||
| :Excuse me? What is my side? You were aware of the three revert rule and chose to keep revert warring. I waited until there were five or six reverts, so this was well within policy. ] | ] 23:54, 6 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| Yes, I didn't stutter, I said "your side." You are siding with the tyrannous majority in this case (which is against policy), aren't you? --] 18:10, 7 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :Due to multiple evasions of the block (the latest being ), the block has been reset. ] | ] 18:27, 7 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| So you refuse to discuss the issue, you will just join the crowd and continue to stick to this kind of ad hominem personal attack/poisioning the well, which is against the Misplaced Pages ], comment on the issue, not the character of your opponent? | |||
| == Majority Concept == | |||
| Truth is absolute. I agree. However, in human society, there has to be some way of making decisions. The usual ways to make decisions are either by majority rule, or by some sort of corrupted form of majority rule, or by having a king. If you do not agree that Misplaced Pages can use majority rule for some issues (not all), then please explain who appointed you as king. | |||
| Misplaced Pages does have a king. He is a constitutional monarch, and he is usually in favor of majority or super-majority rule, rather than of arbitrary claims to ]. | |||
| Are you the king? If not, then you need to accept the king's parliament. ] 01:59, 9 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ===Reply to McClingon, point by point=== | |||
| :Truth is absolute. I agree. | |||
| Did I ever say, "Truth is absolute," or are you just making up quotes like this as you go along now, putting words in my mouth to suit your own agenda? | |||
| :Are you the king? | |||
| This kind of nasty ad hominem/poisoning the well type wisecrack implying that I might think I run things here does not even deserve a reply. I suggest that you read ], then follow policy: limit comment to content, not wisecracks about the contributors. | |||
| {{dispute-resolution}} | |||
| Let me just say the following about the Misplaced Pages policy on what is the FIRST STEP in resolving CONTENT disputes here in Misplaced Pages: | |||
| It appears that those on your side might have the wrong idea about the Misplaced Pages policy on what is the FIRST STEP in resolving content disputes here in Misplaced Pages. It is not "Whichever side can muster the most people gets to control the content of an article, and gets to bully the minority until they give up in disgust and leave" (]), it is consensus decision-making through principled ] in which "BOTH POINTS OF VIEW NEED TO BE INCLUDED to achieve ] (emphasis added): | |||
| <blockquote>Principled negotiation is a cooperative process whereby participants try to find a solution which meets the legitimate interests of both parties, which in the context of Misplaced Pages usually involves appropriate mention of all points of view in an article thus improving the quality of the article. Compromising or "splitting the difference" is generally inappropriate if it means departure from generally recognized points of view, both of which need to be included to achieve ]. <!--Pages 3 to 14, Chapter 1, ''Getting to Yes'', ISBN 0140157352; pages viii, ix, ''The Art of Negotiating'', ISBN 156619816X--></blockquote> | |||
| In ] we find, "True consensus involves meeting everyone’s needs (which in the case of Misplaced Pages means appropriate mention of all points of view in an article thus improving the quality of the article). Consensus decision-making is intended to deemphasize the role of factions or parties and promote the expression of individual voices." | |||
| See the diference between that and the point of view of those on your side, that tyranny of the majority is okay, that those of the majority point of view should control the content of an article through force of numbers? (See the recent history of ] for example.) --] 16:49, 9 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
| == Removing attacks == | |||
| Ad hominem comments by Sasquatch deleted. Admins should know that the ] is comment on content, not the contributors. | Ad hominem comments by Sasquatch deleted. Admins should know that the ] is comment on content, not the contributors. | ||
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| See the diference between that and the point of view of those on your side, that tyranny of the majority is okay, that those of the majority point of view should control the content of an article through force of numbers? (See the recent history of ] and ] for example.) --] 20:57, 13 August 2005 (UTC) | See the diference between that and the point of view of those on your side, that tyranny of the majority is okay, that those of the majority point of view should control the content of an article through force of numbers? (See the recent history of ] and ] for example.) --] 20:57, 13 August 2005 (UTC) | ||
| :Your defence against supposed ad hominem arguments itself contains ad hominem attacks on others. What does that tell you, .6? Notice also this bit from ]: ''Ad hominem is fallacious when applied to deduction, and not the evidence (or premise) of an argument. Evidence may be doubted or rejected based on the source for reasons of credibility, but to doubt or reject a deduction based on the source is the ad hominem fallacy.'' Because of your behaviour, you lack credibility. You have failed to convince ''even one'' other person that your perspective on ] is even valid. Not one person has defended you in the RfC or the RfA. Will ''any'' of the edits you have made on the Wiki be here a week after your departure? | |||
| :If you want to make a difference to the Wiki, try giving the reasons for your desired changes on the talk page, instead of simply reverting and expecting us to accept your edits. ''Argue'' your case. Follow the requests I put forward at ] and I will happily consider your edits. ] 22:14, August 13, 2005 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 17:36, 14 August 2005
Removing ad hominem attacks
"Many Wikipedians remove personal attacks on sight." -- No personal attacks
Ad hominem comments by Sasquatch deleted. Admins should know that the policy is comment on content, not the contributors.
I recommend that you try to learn how to stick to discussion of the issues. Argument ad hominem is just another form of the logical fallacy of trying to create a diversion away from the issues genuinely under discussion. See informal logic.
20:41, 13 August 2005 (UTC) More ad hominem comments by Mr. Sucksquash deleted. As an admin he should know that the policy is comment on content, not the contributors. This is a content dispute. Stop trying to make it about the contributors.
Mr Sucksquash, like others on his side, resorts to the argument ad populum, "The majority is against you." Mr. Sucksquash needs to bone up on informal logic, where he will find such argument is logical fallacy, as is this continuous barrage of argument ad hominem from his side.
http://en.wikipedia.org/Ad_hominem An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin, literally "argument to the man"), is a logical fallacy that involves replying to an argument or assertion by addressing the person presenting the argument or assertion rather than the argument itself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/Argumentum_ad_populum In logic, an appeal to popularity (also called the appeal to the majority or the argumentum ad populum) is a logical fallacy that is committed when someone asserts that a proposition should be held to be true, or more plausible, merely because it is widely believed.
Majority control of content by force of numbers is not Misplaced Pages policy, consensus decision-making is, and In consensus decision-making we find, "True consensus involves meeting everyone’s needs (which in the case of Misplaced Pages means appropriate mention of all points of view in an article thus improving the quality of the article). Consensus decision-making is intended to deemphasize the role of factions or parties and promote the expression of individual voices."
See the diference between that and the point of view of those on your side, that tyranny of the majority is okay, that those of the majority point of view should control the content of an article through force of numbers? (See the recent history of truth and talk:truth for example.) --67.182.157.6 20:57, 13 August 2005 (UTC)