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Revision as of 13:34, 16 August 2005

"Group marriage" is not called "True polygamy"

The article currently declares a false statement, saying that "group marriage" is sometimes called "true polygamy." Not only does the person who wrote that statement not not know the meaning of the polygamy, but they did not even Misplaced Pages:Cite sources.

"Group marriage" can not be called "true polygamy" because it is not even polygamy at all. That is because polygamy is only one of two things. It is either polygyny (one man with more than wife) or it is polyandry (one woman with more than one husband). Either way, it is always a relationship of one-gender to multiple-other-gender.

That's why other arrangements of more than one gender with mutiple others of the other gender is not polygamy, although it is rightly called "group marriage," and is one form of polyamory.

I just did a quick search: Yahoo, for example. The only webpages that call "group marriage" as "true polygamy" are this Misplaced Pages article and sites that copy the Misplaced Pages article directly.

Because this the article is not correct with this statement icnluded, it will ned to be edited. I will await a response here in TALK for about a week. If no one has anything to add or discuss on this, I will then remove that false statement.

Researcher 17:47, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Polygamy - From the ancient greek poly (many) and gamos (marriage). Literally, "Many Marriages" or "Married to Many". The base term does not indicate sex. Because of the neutrality of the original term, some persons refer to group marriage as "true polygamy", as it is more sex neutral than either polyandry or polygyny.

Citations:

However, I agree that the term "true polygamy" is confusing in an encyclopedic entry. In the nine pages of hits off of Altavista, I found many religious groups using it to refer to certain types of polygyny. I have removed the term from the article for the sake of clarity.

Dunkelza 23:10, 8 August 2005 (EDT)

By deleting true polygamy, the only reference to polygamy was deleted. I see a few options:

1. Mention that group marriage is a form of polygamy
2. Decide that it isn't a form of polygamy (as Researcher99 states), and state this as so
3. Leave the article as is, and let people come to their own conclusions

I don't like 3, which ignores the issue. I suspect that 1 is correct, the dictionary definition supports it, but is there a more solid reference? This discussion will reemerge soon in polygamy.Nereocystis 21:06, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Here's a reference to group marriage being called polygamy:

Emens, Elizabeth F., "Monogamy's Law: Compulsory Monogamy and Polyamorous Existence" (February 2004). U of Chicago, Public Law Working Paper No. 58, p. 21. http://ssrn.com/abstract=506242

It also mentions multiple partners of the same sex, which is excluded by the current definition of group marriage in this article. Of course, polygynandry also excludes group marriages consisting only of one gender. Here's a possible rewrite, though this allows polygyny and polyandry to be types of group marriage. Is this acceptable?

Group marriage or Circle Marriage is a form of polygamous marriage in which three or more people form a family unit, and all members of the marriage share parental responsibility for any children arising from the marriage. Heterosexual group marriage is sometimes called polygynandry, from a combination of the words polygyny and polyandry.

Nereocystis 22:21, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

I think that your rewrite works. Since group marriage is a form of polygamy, I'd go ahead and put it up. Dunkelza 11:21, 12 August 2005 (EDT)

I'll wait a little while for Researcher99 to respond. I know he disagrees with calling group marriage a form of polygamy. I also realize that with my rewrite, group marriage and polygamy are almost identical, with polygamy and polyandry being subsets of both. I had previously thought that group marriage was one type of polygamy, not including all of polygamy, but if the requirement of 2 of each gender is removed, a bigamous couple is engaged in a group marriage. Nereocystis 18:39, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

PolyGYNY and Polyandry. :) Polygamy is the sex-neutral term. That confusion in common parlance sparked the debate over "True Polygamy" in the first place. Some advocates of group marriage hold that it is the pure form of polygamy because it presents equal opportunity to both sexes. Even if some of the people in a group marriage are homosexual, the family could still contain both sexes, assuming there are some bisexuals in there. Basically, a group marriage must contain all one sex or at least two of each sex. Dunkelza 19:14, 12 August 2005 (EDT)

Hmm. There's a certain gender inequality which I don't quite like yet. Or maybe it's a sexual preference difference. I'm having trouble putting my finger on it, but I'll try. Let's pretend that intercourse, or sexual preference is what matters.

Imagine 2 men A and B, and two women Y and Z. A is bi, B is gay, Y and Z and straight. B, Y, and Z have sex only with A and not with each other. How is this different from a polygynous relationship? Polygynandry is fine if everyone is straight, but may fall apart if some are not straight. Nereocystis 23:58, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Let's save the gender issue for later, and just restore polygamous for now. Here's my current suggestion:

Group marriage or Circle Marriage is a form of polygamous marriage in which more than one man and more than one woman form a family unit, and all members of the marriage share parental responsibility for any children arising from the marriage. Group marriage is sometimes called polygynandry, from a combination of the words polygyny and polyandry.

Nereocystis 22:09, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I think that sounds fine. The whole issue of sex and marriage is fairly murky because of confusion around the meaning of the word "marriage". Indeed, the Greek term "gamos" was more specifically heterosexual because its meaning was more akin to "matrimony" in English, which is a specific religious rite. Given this uncertainty, I think we should stick with the general anthropological definition of polygamy, which includes group marriage.

Dunkelza 23:40, 13 August 2005 (EDT)

That's Polyamory, not Polygamy

None of the references that Dunkelza provided offer any valid verification of "group marriage" being legitimately called "true polygamy." All but the first citation are simply usenet or forum threads. Mere discussions on threads do not qualify as legitimate Misplaced Pages:Verifiability sources. The first cited source is a tiny page that does not even mention "group marriage." Plus, the closest comment the page there makes about "true polygamy" is actually disproving the idea of using that as a definition. It said, "I know of no documented social milieu which practiced "true" polygamy (multiple spouses of any gender).".

Also, the one citation that Nereocystis makes also does not have the words "polygamy" or "group marriage" on it at all. Actually, that article is about polyamory. It is true that "group marriage" is a subset of polyamory but it is not a subset of polygamy.

An easier way to understand this is by remembering who is called a "polygamist." In polygyny, the husband is called the "polygamist" but his wives are not - they are his "polygamous wives." In polyandry, the wife is called the "polygamist" but her husbands are not - they are her "polygamous husbands."

The reason why polygamy is a description of one-gender-to-many-of-other-gender is that it is based upon the relationship that the one-gender has with each of the other-gender. In polygyny, for example, the wives are not "married" to each other - they each have their marriage with the husband. The same for polyandry, the husbands are not "married" to each other - they each have their marriage with the wife.

The concept of "group marriage" explodes that concept into something it is not. It is definitely a form of polyamory but it is not possible to be a "form" of polygamy because it implies marriage between everyone in the group to everyone else in the group.

So, to use the re-write offered by Nereocystis, I would say that the word polygamous needs to be replaced with polyamorous and the last sentence needs to be removed. It would read as this:

Group marriage or Circle Marriage is a form of polyamorous marriage in which more than one man and more than one woman form a family unit, and all members of the marriage share parental responsibility for any children arising from the marriage.

Researcher 13:34, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

"Polygynandry" is NOT even a word

The article currently also declares another false statement. It makes up a new word, saying that "group marriage" is sometimes called "polygynandry." I just looked up the word, and polygynandry does not exist. The person who added that word appears to have made up a word, and they did not even Misplaced Pages:Cite sources. I'll check back in about a week to see if anyone has more to add about this. At that time, if there is nothing more to discuss or explain, I'll make the correction. Researcher 17:53, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

--- Citations for Polygynandry: (I don't LIKE the word, but it is a technical term in zoology)

There were at least 10 pages of hits off Altavista. Dunkelza 23:10, 8 August 2005 (EDT)

I performed a BIOSIS search on ovid.com and found 31 journal references, reputable, I believe. Here are the first 10, some mentioning the word in the title, others not:

1. Vermette, Richard ; Fairbairn, Daphne J. . How well do mating frequency and duration predict paternity success in the polygynandrous water strider Aquarius remigis? Evolution. 56(9). September, 2002. 1808-1820.
2. Haydock, Joseph ; Koenig, Walter D. . Reproductive skew in the polygynandrous acorn woodpecker Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America. 99(10). May 14, 2002. 7178-7183.
3. Campbell, Veronique ; Fairbairn, Daphne J. . Prolonged copulation and the internal dynamics of sperm transfer in the water strider Aquarius remigis Canadian Journal of Zoology. 79(10). October, 2001. 1801-1812.
4. Winterbottom, M. ; Burke, T. ; Birkhead, T. R. . The phalloid organ, orgasm and sperm competition in a polygynandrous bird: The red-billed buffalo weaver (Bubalornis niger) Behavioral Ecology & Sociobiology. 50(5). October, 2001. 474-482.
5. Bishton, Glenn . Social structure, habitat use and breeding biology of hedgerow Dunnocks Prunella modularis Bird Study. 48(2). July, 2001. 188-193.
6. Jones, A. G. ; Avise, J. C. . Mating systems and sexual selection in male-pregnant pipefishes and seahorses: Insights from microsatellite-based studies of maternity Journal of Heredity. 92(2). March-April, 2001. 150-158.
7. Chiba, Akira ; Nakamura, Masahiko . Note on the morphology of the sperm storage tubules in the polygynandrous alpine accentor, Prunella collaris Journal of the Yamashina Institute for Ornithology. 32(2). 29 December, 2000. 73-79.
8. Sommer, Volker ; Reichard, Ulrich . Deconstructing monogamy: Thailand's gibbons at Khao Yai Folia Primatologica. 71(5). September-October, 2000. 362.
9. Briskie, James V. . Song variation and the structure of local song dialects in the polygynandrous Smith's Longspur Canadian Journal of Zoology. 77(10). Oct., 1999. 1587-1594.
10. Goldizen, Anne W. ; Buchan, Jason C. ; Putland, David A. ; Goldizen, Alan R. ; Krebs, Elizabeth A. . Patterns of mate-sharing in a population of Tasmanian Native Hens Gallinula mortierii Ibis. 142(1). Jan. , 2000. 40-47.