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Ukraine B‑class High‑importance

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Removed "Green line" regarding metro route to the site. The line's official name is "Syrets'ko-Pechers'ka", while a color on the maps is up to designers of those.AlexPU 09:57, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Removed "The Soviet government used this site for the Stalinist purges of Kievites by NKVD in late 1930s.". Babi Yar was never used by NKVD. It used the village Bykovnya for that. Vervin 10:57, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Not sure, Vervin. I'll check this thoroughly. Anyway, Bykivnya wasn't the only place for such massive executions, otherwise there would be a mountain of corpses there. BTW, your recent remarks to talk pages are supposed to be beneath, not above. Regards, AlexPU 12:09, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

In the "Before the Massacre" section there were single square brackets around every instance of the word "Jew". I removed them, since they didn't seem to belong there. If I've inadvertantly committed a great offense, accept my apologies. Plantagenet Palliser 21:49, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Commited by?

I guess every each soldier of einzatzgruppen was the murderer, and none of them is free of guilt. And all the above chain of command are also murderers. Thus, I see no reason to state that one person is to blame. Going to delete the passage if nobody opposes AlexPU

AlexPU, I empatise with your thoughts that "everyone was to blame", but I think in this case is important to mention the name of the commander, for several reasons:

• He was in charge for the Jewish problem in the Baltics.
• I think it is important to mention so people could start writing an article about him as well.

--Pinnecco 02:28, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

http"//judicial-inc.biz/Babi_Yar.htm gives all the original sources for Babi Yar - except for the Ein.. Report.

Supposedly the leader was Paul Blobel. He has a wiki article - not a real leader looking/resume kind of guy , but he was the one hung for it.

As far as I know it was only the Germans who took part in the executions. The auxillary police only took part in the rounding up, but not in the actual killing. It is in my opinion incorrect to also ascribe the kiling of the Kievan Jews to others who did not directly participate in the executions.Bandurist 09:47, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

First, the sources prove you wrong. Second, even if you were correct, participation in mass murder doesn't mean only pressing the cock of a gun. ←Humus sapiens 09:53, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Humus is right here. The first book I checked (Martin Gilbert's The Holocaust) reports an eyewitness saying 'Ukrainian policemen formed a corridor and drove the panic striken people towards the huge glade' and formed them up in columns to take them to the ravine (p 202-3). Delivering people up to be killed like that is participation in mass murder. Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 09:58, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. The Jews who were marched to the ravine did not know what the true intension of the Nazis was. The Auxillary Police would also not have known. There task was not to execute but to round them up and deliver them to the ravine. As far as they would have known, it would have been for transportation, and that does not make them into killers. In order to do that you have to show that they knew what was going to happen, and this has not happened. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bandurist (talk • contribs) 10:44, August 29, 2007 (UTC)

I think their not knowing their task was extremely unlikely. Especially on the 2nd day of the massacre, and thereafter...Galassi 14:16, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Shameless denial nonsense. ←Humus sapiens 19:58, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

All you have to do is point me in the direction of some historic document that shows that the auxillary police in Kiev were directly involved in the murders of sept 29-30. with your knowledge regarding the research of this event it should be relatively easy. Otherwise, IMHO what you are doing is distorting historic fact in order to give this tragedy a spin which it never had. Keep in mind that I am not denying the tragedy. I am specifically questioning one of your statements. --Bandurist 13:40, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

User:Squiddy earlier provided Gilbert's quote, and I added a few more refs. ←Humus sapiens 23:07, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

How can you trust that Gilbert, after all, he, as a Jew would support your side of the story, and so would the so- called witness. Killing, means shooting a person, not lining a group of people up. Show me one REAL document that provesthat Ukrainian policemen participated. I'm not Ukrainian, so don't say I'm standing up for my side, but I see that all this about Ukrainians killing is bull. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Smythe03 (talk • contribs) 14:34, 18 September 2007 (UTC) There were also thousands of victims shot at Babi Yar, all Ukrainians, by Stalin, before the outbreak of the Soviet- Nazi war. I hope their bodies don't get mistaken, or don't get counted as some Jewish victims Adolf23653 14:40, 18 September 2007 (UTC)adolf23653

If you source it properly.Galassi 15:50, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Photo of memorial

If someone have idea to put photo of one of memorials, you can get it here (photos taken by me). --Yonkie 23:07, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Now documented and proven

I recall reading about the "Ukrainians collaborators" in a reliable source and will not question the validity of this fact. However, i.m.h.o. the following sentence is not a good statement as it requires further information:

The participation of local collaborators in these events, now documented and proven, is a matter of painful public debate in Ukraine.

Where, when and by whom it was "documented and proven"? Without proper references such an statement sounds more emotional than factual.

There is reasonable doubt, whether this alleged incident took place at all. http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndbabiyar.html What is by the way the factual evidence that ~30.000 were killed and burried in the ravine?!

There isn't _reasonable doubt_ that Babi Yar occured. For one piece of evidence, we can refer to the Nazi's own report of the event, http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/german/einsatzgruppen/osr/osr-101.html. Although there is a mass of speculation on the part of deniers/revisionists, this does not mean there is _reasonable_ doubt about the veracity of the event. 03:08, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Any source for the 700 psychiatric patients? Beware of einsatzgruppen reports. I remember one that was signed by an officer who had been dead for about 6 months - I would guess that particular report was a forgery.

My understanding was that the Ukranians were a constant source of problems for the USSR. I have heard that many fought for the Germans during WW2 and for the White army before WW2 ( they have never been on friendly terms even today). Is there some overlap between Babi-Yar and these other conflicts - confusion as to counts etc over time.

Oh I love this quote "Concerning Babi Yar, Elie Wiesel stated "Eye witnesses say that for months after the killings the ground continued to spurt geysers of blood." Yeah ok. That about sums up how realistic not to mention reliable the so called eye witness reports are regarding Babi Yar. The picture in the article does not show any corpses being burried or exhumed, only people who cannot be indentified, although it certainly appears they are not wearing German uniforms or overcoats. Its also interesting that hunderds of thousands of blood gushing corpses werent dug up or washed away by the subsequent mud slides and urban development. --Nazrac 05:15, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Don't forget that SS commander Eichmann testified to something along these lines. But, he's either lying or was tortured to say this... right?

It would really help if you knew a little about the history you were trying to deny. Even a _little_, so you wouldn't make a fool of yourself.

I'd like to know how you overlooked the massive exhumation and cremation operation at Babi Yar, which would explain the fact that there weren't many "blood gushing corpses" left when mud slides and development happened. But, why consider troublesome facts when you can just ignore them, right? Cantankrus 05:53, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

What makes you think I'm denying anything, I merely have difficulty with the above claim, can bodies physically gush blood out of the ground days after being shot? I don't suppose thats an experiment that can be reproduced, however it raises some questions about what exactly is being added/invented in such testimony. I seems expressing doubt about one detail means I deny the entire Holocaust according to you? Is there a complete list of exactly what is covered under the Holocaust or is it simply a blanket term that can be invoked, added or subtracted from whenever those who promote it decide it is convenient to do so? I certainly don't deny mass shootings at Babi Yar, a sad tragedy indeed. More sad still are people like you who cheapen such tragedies by using it as a vessel of criticism and propaganda. In my above post I merely critisize the photograph and the above eyewitness testimony, which I consider suspect. Does that mean such a massacre absolutely did not occur? certain not. As far as Eichmann is concerned, imagine Iran kidnapping former Israeli intelligence officers and putting them on trial for crimes against Islam or something similar. That would be on about the same level of legitimacy as the Eichmann trial. If Eichmann felt he really had something terrible to hide you would think he would have had the sense to change his and his families last name in order to elude capture by his persuers. I suppose it would be fair to conclude he never saw it coming, dont you think?

Perhaps I should take this moment in time to explain my family members also fought against the 3rd Reich, saw incredible suffering and many terrible things. They also had the wisdom to recognize the futility of war, and that no person or group of people can (morally) benefit at the expense of others. Those who deliberately start war and conflict and sow discord among people will ultimately be held accountable for their actions, I suppose if Eichmann was guilty of such things he had it coming. Therefore any others on the world stage guilty of the same actions also can legitimately expect to be kidnapped and hanged by their adversaries? --Nazrac 04:05, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

'who cheapen such tragedies by using it as a vessel of criticism and propaganda -- as opposed to those who "express doubt" and "question.. what exactly is being added/invented"?

putting them on trial for crimes against Islam -- I see the parallel. Exactly which Israeli intelligence officers were in charge of an Islamic genocide. Sorry, but only THAT would be somewhat similar to what Eichmann did.

For all of your blather, your intentions were adequately disclosed with your first "Oh I love this". And as your edit history documents, your "doubt" seems only to be with the holocaust. Again and again. And only with things that reflect badly on the Nazi part of the war. But, that's not part of classic denial, is it? Cantankrus 23:37, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

You must be terribly paranoid. You keep making inferences everywhere about hidden anti-semitism lurking around every corner, hidden in every criticism or comment. I guess Eichmann being responsible for the deaths and suffering of countless people is different than Israeli aggression against its neighbours because its only a crime if Jews re the victims? Further, it seems the Holocaust is like a get out of jail free card that is immediately invoked the moment criticism is made. You would think lessons would be learned from the Holocaust, apparently not. Being the victim of one does not give a people the right to act like the same aggressors who victimized them in the first place. Such incredible arrogance and hypocracy can only cultivate anti-semitism rather than discourage it. There are a great many Jewish people who also echo those exact same sentiments, and I admire them greatly for having the courage to say it knowing they will face harassment and persecution from their own people. Keep finding hidden anti-semitic conspiracies and motives everywhere, eventually you may realize you are the one who keeps fanning the flames and keeping it well stoked. --Nazrac 00:37, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Nazrac, you have violated way too many WP:RULES: WP:NPOV, WP:NPA, WP:CIVILITY, WP:SOAPBOX, WP:NOR, WP:NOT, etc. Please stop now. ←Humus sapiens 00:52, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not paranoid at all. I never said anything about anti-semitism, or for that fact anything about Isreal -- it was you that related (as an example) something that Isreali intelligence agents did with Eichamann's prosecution of the Holocaust.

I'll note that this article is about the Holocaust, so your point about "the Holocaust being used as a get out of jail free card" is kind of mute -- how can one invoke something to defend itself, exactly? Except for that point -- I'll leave the rest of your political rant alone. Cantankrus 01:37, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Myths and historic dustbins

The entire Babi Yar story I thought had been consigned to the dust bin of history. Wat-time aerial photos - and post-war photos - and on-site surveys - and ground radar - etc came up with zilch. Isn't there any myth that can be abandoned - folks stick with a few good ones, not ones you have already lost. Embarrassment should eventually lead to accuracy, at least in this one. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 159.105.80.92 (talk • contribs) .

Amazing how there are lots of conjecture but no citations or meaningful evidence to back up that Babi Yar is anything but fact. Nothing like wild speculation to try and advance your political agenda. 03:16, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

If you want to have such kind of discussion (i.e.: personal attacks, claiming that people have hidden agendas, claiming wild speculations, etc.) I suggest you take this discussion elsewhere. Do a search on google for aryan nations or revisionism. --Pinnecco 14:03, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

"anything but fact" - Can we assume that the US aerial photos were found to be forgeries?

From the above, a person might conclude that you would rather publish propaganda than "facts". Dispute "facts" - ie aerial photos, etc - if you want to but ranting about "personal attacks"etc makes you look like a personal who engages in "personal attacks"etc.

Revisionism

--Sean 06:52, 1 August 2006 (UTC)Revisionism has its own article in Misplaced Pages. So does Holocaust Denier. Kindly keep comments about "reasonable doubt," "alleged incident" and "myths" confined to those pages. Einsatzgruppe Operational Situation Report 101 claims 33,771 Jews killed September 29 and 30. I'll take the words of the group responsible, thank you very much.

Are you advocating paralell truths. Is this a code word or a supercode word. Who writes the denier article - it appears not to be deniers?

Sorry to contradict you but the Holocaust Denial article has been totally taken over by proholocaust writers, if you didn't know.159.105.80.141 19:44, 27 March 2007 (UTC) It's almost funny to read the discussion page, had forgotten it for some time. They work on it almost everyday, they are totally convinced by their own argument, of course they don't want to hear any denial stuff.159.105.80.141 19:44, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Aftermath and Remembrance

This section starts with the sweeping statement: 'The Soviet Union was anti-semitic'. Could someone outline (and source) what form this took and what the justification for not creating a memorial was? Ashmoo 00:14, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Current version (29 Sept 2006, 7:35 AM Eastern Time) has "hilarious" in first paragraph that is probably vandalism or remnant of past vandalism.

As far as the motivation for not wanting to place any memorial whatever at the site, I am unsure. However, with regard to the refusal of Soviet authorities to recognize that the Jewish population was specifically targetted, it comes down to the authorities not wanting the surviving Jews -- and other minorities that were victimized -- "stealing" the spot-light from the Soviet state, as it were. Recognizing the Jews, or the poles, or the gays, or whoever as being the targets of the Nazis instead of the Soviet people as a whole would have undermined the attempts by the authorities to frame the mass murder that accompanied the War as noble "Soviet sacrifice". If specific minorities were seen to be the ones who had paid the heaviest price for the War, the Soviet government would not very well be able to claim that they had sacrificed out of loyalty to communism. It's entirely about propaganda potential. (You'll find this in any serious historical-political treatment of post-war USSR.) --Todeswalzer|Talk 21:31, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I guess I can see the rationale of the Soviet authorities behind refusal for a separate monument to Jews. The official policy of the Soviet state was "internationalism", that means that every nationality should be treated equally. In that light erecting a monument to only 1/3 of the victims (Jews) would pose a lot of unanswered questions as it does in present day Ukraine. Yes, the Jews were targeted specifically, but so were the Romas. A monument to them is not warranted because of the low numbers? Than if that rationale is applied universally a monument to 37,000 out of 100,000 overall killed is in need of explanation as well. I guess the Soviet government was afraid of what has happened now: almost total monopoly on sufferenig of one ethnic group over all the others. In any site about Babi Yar on the internet you would be hard-pressed to find any mentioning at all about non-Jews (75% of the victims killed). It simply comes down to a question of fairness. --Hillock65 15:42, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Soviet Union was anti-Semitic? You have got to be kidding. A very large number of the Communist leaders were Jewish I believe. In later years other ethnic groups became more equally represented. but I don't think anti-Semetic could ever be applied to Communist Russia - currently that is not so but then Russia is now capitalist, with a small favoring of mobster thrown in.

translation/intention

I do not believe that "hilarious" is the correct or intended adjective in the introductory sentence. Perhaps horrific or horrendous would be more appropriate?

                     Mark Woermke

• That was a result of vandalism, it was quickly removed. Mieciu K 15:50, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

names of victims

The article includes the name of one victim. I'm thinking that that is sort of PoVish, and should be removed. (the text mentions Jews, of course, Roma, Soviet prisoners, and mental patients. Should it mention Ukrainians or Ukrainian activists as well?) Jd2718 03:18, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• First of all, what is the deal with Ukrainian activists? What is meant by that? Is someone afraid to mention that those activists were actually members of OUN (Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists). By the way the link in 'activist' leads to a page about OUN. So what is the deal with hiding the real name of victims behind that vague "activists"? How about NPOV and naming things as they are?
• Second of all, among the victims was a famous Ukrainian poet Olena Teliha. There are plans in Ukraine to erect a monument to her as well. I think it should be mentioned as well, as it corresponds to the truth and is in full compliance with the guidelines. --Hillock65 04:46, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

The sentence I rewrote originally said: "Among the other victims was Olena Teliha, a promising poet and Ukrainian activist." The link was to the OUN, but it was piped to "Ukrainian activist." I didn't change that.

• As it is supposed to be about neutral point of view and be true to facts, mentioning of Ukrainian nationalists who died there by name is warranted. They did die there, so it belongs in the article and should have a link. There should not be any secrets.

The little bio I found for her on line I can't read (it's in Ukrainian) but the best I can make out makes it sound like she was more significant as a Ukrainian Nationalist than as a poet.

• What kind of poet she was is beyond the scope of discussion. The fact remains that she was executed there and for some people (notably the President of Ukraine) it warranted considerations to erect a monument to her. Irrespective of what people might think of her, her death and attempts to commemorate her are a fact, and as such are definitely worth mentioning.

In the end I think that her name is being used as a counterbalance to 33 thousand Jews killed in 2 days. It is quite POV, but the initiative is not from any of our editors. To go along with it, though, would be to make this article not be primarily about the massacre. That would be wrong. Jd2718 05:16, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

• Again, it is about NPOV. If it is a fact (which it is) it should not be excluded because some people are afraid that mentioning one name (!) or a few for that matter, are going to counterbalance 33 thousand Jews killed. There were other people who died there. If you want to write an aricle exclusively about Jews who died there you may write another article and title it accordingly. As of right now, this article is about ALL VICTIMS of Babi Yar. This is not about likes or dislikes it is about OBJECTIVITY.

Contradicting myself: I kept her name, but made it less prominent. It is well-sourced. Is there an update on the memorial? Jd2718 05:28, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

• I still don't understand why it should be less prominent? What are you afraid of? Is this article about Jews only or about the tragedy of Babi Yar? I am going to research on her and write a separate section. There is no and never will be a monopoly on human suffering, including in Babi Yar. --Hillock65 05:57, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

What makes Babi Yar notable is the magnitude of the killing on September 29 and 30, 1941. Is this the largest machine gun killing of civilians in European history? The article is primarily about the massacre, as it should be. Most readers coming here are coming to read about the massacre. I've moved the other killings to the next section. Jd2718 06:20, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

• Yes, it is about massacre and it should be true to facts without preferences one or the other way. Is mentioning victims other than Jews makes it less significant? This approach is racist, as all victims of that tragedy deserve mentioning, not only some that suit you. No one who died there should be made less prominent! Please follow the NPOV and stick to the facts irrespective of your likes or dislikes!--Hillock65 06:32, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

The massacre that people come to this page to read occurred on two days in 1941. Yes, there were other killings there, and the article mentions that. No one has tried to hide that. But the historical significance comes from the large massacre, and yes, that massacre deserves the center section of the article. Jd2718 06:42, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

• If you desire to structure the article according to dates of the massacre it could be done. However, all victims should be mentioned on the dates they were killed, even if in your view it counterbalances something. Truth has to be told in its entirety. --Hillock65 06:58, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Take a look. I think it is close. Jd2718 07:02, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

It would be interesting to have a list of prominent people who were murdered in Babiy Yar, particularly those who have articles about themselves in Misplaced Pages. It would give a human dimension to the tradgedy and some understanding as to why these particular people were murdered.Bandurist 12:30, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Some other civilians?!

Wouldn't it be more respectful to the dead at least to mention that they were Ukrainians and Russians, not "some other civilians". --Hillock65 03:32, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

The use of terms such as Soviet citizens is also somewhat misleading. During the massacre the people were not Soviet citizens. Also among the dead were people who arrived in Kyiv from other countries who were not Soviet citizens before the war. They include Olena Teliha and her husband Mykhailo who lived in Prague and then Poland in the mid war years. Residents of Kyiv would be possibly more accurate. Bandurist 13:11, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Suggestions to improve the aricle

I do agree the article needs improvement. In my view in its present form it is one sided and does not correspond to NPOV. While this tragedy is undoubtedly is one of the worst in Jewish history it should not exclude other nationalities and should not present unjustified and unsubstantiated accusations. In my opinion there is an obvious attempt to smear Ukrainians as a whole along with the perpetrators of this tragedy. What I have in mind is the following:

• mentioning "Ukrainian perpetrators of the Holocaust and similar genocide operations by Bogdan Khmelnitsky" is completely out of context. If other genocide operations should be mentioned than the role of Jews in NKVD and atrocities of Trotsky and Kaganovich should not be excluded either. This article is not about smearing Jews or Ukrainians, it is about the tragedy of Babi Yar. While I do not object to mentioning about Ukrainian collaborators as such - for which citation is needed - I strongly believe names of Khmelnitsky and Petlura do not belong here.
• In my view separating Jewish and "other" victims is racist, it has no place not only here but anywhere in Wiki. If the article is to be structured by periods of executions than again ALL victims should be mentioned without exclusion with equal prominence.
• As well if there is going to be mentioning about debate in Ukraine about collaborators and that "these events, now documented and proven", than documents and proofs have to be presented otherwise it is violation of NPOV policy and should have been taken out long ago. Hillock65 07:22, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm still looking this article. I think that most of your concerns have been addressed. There is one of mine that is still open: Babi Yar was used by the Nazi's as an execution site. They killed many people there, including Jews, but the majority were not Jews. This is what the article says, and it is true.

But Babi Yar is also the name by which people refer to the massacre of September 1941. The body of the article reflects this; the lead does not. Perhaps a one sentence addition to the lead? Let's not take away from what is already there - it accurately reflects what happened. But let's find a way to put both meanings up top. Jd2718 04:49, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I thought this sentence in the lead "The massacres at Babi Yar were among the worst of the Holocaust" accurately reflects what happened. Is that not enough? Tragedy of Babi Yar is not exclusively an event of two days, it continued for two years and the article should accurately reflect so. --Hillock65 06:42, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

"Babi Yar" as a name is both: the place where 100,000 were killed, and, as part of it, the place where 37k were killed in 2 days. I'll come up with a reword or an extra sentence, and I will put it here. Jd2718 10:10, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I remember once reading in the Soviet press of the 1980's about an individual Anatoliy Kabayda who lived under his mother's surname in Australia who was involved with the massacre. (A member or head of the Ukrainian Auxillary police if I remember correctly). What information is there about the perpetrators of this crime? Are there any sources? Bandurist 12:33, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Leaflet translation

I think putting kikes or zhids in the article is over the top. Besides, the question which word is derogatory is very subjective. As far as the word "жид" goes it depends on where it is uttered. It is a literary norm for "Jew" in Poland, Lithuania and a few other countries. In Ukraine in different regions the use of it was different too. Shevchenko always used it, the old version of the Bible almost exclusively uses this word too, because there were no other in the Ukrainian language. Some people didn't think it derogatory as for example did volunteers of the Ukrainian Galician Army who formed the Жидівський курінь(Zhydivs’kyy Kurin’ UHA) in the Ukrainian Galician Army. Now it is derogatory because it is derogatory in Russian, but it was not always the case in Ukraine as it is also not derogatory in Poland. Was it meant to afflict additional pain to the victims? It is hard to say now, but being so particular about that word I think is petty. Is it adding insult to injury? I think the injury was big enough to go into pieces over linguistic peculiarities.--Hillock65 04:58, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Can you correct the translation? Jd2718 05:05, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Hillock65, your examples are from another century and/or region. In Kiev of 1940s "жид" was definitely an offensive ethnic slur. An alternative (Yevrei) was widely used. ←Humus sapiens 21:31, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

In Ukrainian the word does not have the same connotation as in Russian. In the Dictionary of Ukrainian Language published by Naukova Dumka/Scinetific thought, Kyiv 1971 Vol 2 p.528 it states ЖИДИ (одн Жид, а ч. Жидівка , и ж, Те саме що Євреї. А жид старий ніби теж знає, Доньку свою одиноку в хаті замикає. (Шевч., ІІ 1953, 158 - Zhydy (sing. Zhyd mas. Zhydivka fem.) The same as Yevreyi. The old Zhyd knows, his daughter by herself in the home he locks up - Shevchenko vol II, 1953 p 158) The ethnonym "Yevrei" was intoduced into Ukrainian usage only after the 1933 spelling reform. The spelling reform was considered by many as a step towards the russification of Ukrainian and it was opposed by many. With the German occupation the Soviet spelling reform was cancelled and language style reverted to the 1928 spelling rules which did not have the ethnionym "Yevrei". It would be interesting to study the use of this ethnonym "Zhyd" in the context of other spellings used in the passgaes quoted - whether they use the post 1933 guidelines (i.e. russified) or pre. It should be noted that the ethnonym "Zhyd" continued to be used in Western Ukraine (then under Poland where the same word existed in Polish). The ethnonym also continued to be used after the war and in the diaspora who did not acknowledge the spelling reforms of 1933. The 1998 dictionary states that it is a derogatory term, but during the the German occupation there can be doubts. I feel that translating it as a derogatory term is using a current interpretation to a word which was in normal usage at the time. It is however right on the border. Interesting article to review about this is ЖИДИ ЧИ ЄВРЕЇ? or the publication in Israel of link title --Bandurist 06:49, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Here is another translation into English of the same passage - (www.deathcamps.org/occupation/babi%20yar.html Babi Yar). The Ukrainian_English Dictionary compiled by C H. Andrusyshen and J. Krett Published by the University of Saskatoon and the University of Toronto Press Original printing 1955 have for the word Zhyd - m Jew, Hebrew with a list of 32 words that use this ethnonym as its root. No mention of the word kike in any of the translations. Bandurist 05:23, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

There is a difference between the usage of the word in Poland (where Zhyd = Jew) and in Russia/Ukraine (where Zhyd is offensive slur). One of your own sources mentions a letter written as early as 1860s pleading to stop using this word. While some regions of Western Ukraine belonged to Poland before 1939, Kiev was not one of them. The fact that our dialog takes place in this particular article is telling. ←Humus sapiens 22:12, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

At another site I saw the same proclamation only published in Russian. The text is almost identical, but the implications of the text are somwhat different because of the differences of usage of specific words in different languages. Is this worth while persuing? --Bandurist 15:10, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

It is the same text in Russian and Ukrainian languages. Different "implications" are in your head. The word is a well known ethnic slur. Even the source you gave (thank you), "Stolen Name" by Yevgen Nakonechny (National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine) says that in 1861 (80 years before 1941!!!), there was a public polemics in the national-patriotic periodical "Osnovy" regarding the usage of the word "zhid", initiated by a letter (published under title "Недоразуменіє по поводу слова "Жид") by V. Portugalov who strongly pleaded not to use the slur because it is highly offensive. ←Humus sapiens 02:40, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

You write about the Russian text as if you have seen it. Have you? What we do have, and can see with our own eyes, are the words in Ukrainian and German. The German we know is not a slur. The Ukrainian we need a RS for. Insistence is no substitute. Jd2718 03:34, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

This announcement is well known document of the Holocaust. Here it is in both Russian and Ukrainian: . ←Humus sapiens 09:26, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Do you have a source? Jd2718 12:10, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

I provided a link to an image, but I understand if you distrust flickr. As I said, the four infamous words "Все жиды города Киева" became a part of the Holocaust history. Here are a few articles referring to them, in Russian: Обращение германского командования к жителям Киева, К ВОПРОСУ ОБ АНТИСЕМИТСКОЙ ПРОПАГАНДЕ НА ОККУПИРОВАННЫХ ТЕРРИТОРИЯХ СССР: НОВЫЕ ИСТОЧНИКИ, Молчать – опасно, НИКОЛАЙ ЗАСЕЕВ-РУДЕНКО, Вячеслав Кантор: Бабий Яр дал толчок шести тысячам «бабьих яров», К ИСТОРИИ УСТАНОВЛЕНИЯ ПАМЯТНИКА В БАБЬЕМ ЯРУ. This info is easy to find. Let me know if you need more. ←Humus sapiens 23:53, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Keep in mind that Osnova magazine was published in Petersburg (i.e. in Russia and not in Ukraine or Ukrainian ethnic territory) and although a letter was published in the magazine at that time, from what I understand, no further discussion took place. The ethnonym Yevrej was only introduced into the Ukrainian language officially in 1934. The word was introduced in Eastern ie Communist Ukraine. In Western Ukraine no such spelling reform took place and they continued to use the ethnonym Zhyd just as it was used by all the other Slavic peoples (Poles, Slovaks, Czechs) apart from the Ruissians and considered the dictionary and spelling rules of 1934 an attempt to Russify Ukrainian. Your incistence attempts to make Ukrainians into anti-semites because they didn't accept the Russification of their language is quite perplexing and in my opinion borders on hate.--Bandurist 02:53, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Again, your own evidence proves you wrong. Let me know if you need translation:

• About widespread usage of the ethnonym “єврей” after 1918:

Уряд Української Народної Республіки 1917–1921 років офіційно вживав слово “єврей”. Після 1918 року це слово реєструється у всіх словниках на східноукраїнських землях. Зустрічається воно і в галицьких виданнях, наприклад, “Словничок української мови і головні правописні правила та замітки до відміни Костя Кисілевського” (Станислав, 1927) має “єврей” із відмінковими формами, а також “єврейський”, “євреїзм” (с. 95), “Український правопис із словничком”, що його впорядкував Михайло Возняк (Львів, НТШ, 1929), реєструє “єврей” і “єврейський” (с. 114). Мають ті слова “Українська загальна енциклопедія” (Львів, 1931, т. І, с. 1259) та “Українсько-німецький словник” (Ляйпціг, 1943) Зенона Кузелі, Ярослава Рудницького й Карла Маєра. У цьому ж таки словнику є й похідні слова, а саме “єврейка” і “єврейство” (с. 213).

• The argument that Ukrainian ethnonym “єврей” (yevrey) comes from Russian is ridiculous. Note the same root in Hebrew: עברי (ivri), Greek: Ἑβραῖος, English: Hebrew, etc. - see Jewish ethnonym for more. Do they all come from Russian as well? LOL. Again, you are contradicting your own source:

Парадоксально, але за такою ж точнісінько схемою аргументації, як ми бачили, українофоби заперечували можливість визнання етноніму “українець”. Російські, польські, угорські шовіністи здіймали лемент, що, мовляв, етнонім “українець” антиісторичний, бо в давніх історичних пам’ятках його немає (наводились приклади). По‑друге, це чужинецький мовний неологізм, якого не сприймають їхні мови. У Росії етнонім “українець” вважали польською інтригою, в Польщі — австрійською, а в Угорщині та Румунії — галицькою. Одностайно заперечувалось проте його таки українське походження, так само, як не визнається, що термін “єврей” аж ніяк не російського, а таки єврейського походження. “Хто як хто, але українці, — які з таким трудом змагалися і ще досі змагаються, щоб їх означували назвою “українець” (а не “русин”) — хіба найкраще повинні б розуміти, що про свою назву має право вирішувати народ, до якого ця назва належить; і що ми бачимо культурність та доброзичливість з боку тих народів, які називають нас так, як ми хочемо, щоб нас називали. Це повинен мати на увазі кожен у справі національної назви Єврейського народу.

Please remember that we are talking here about a Nazi announcement in Kiev (not Lviv) in 1941 and please remember its immediate result. As for your insinuation that someone "attempts to make Ukrainians into anti-semites", please review WP:NPA, WP:AGF and WP:CIVILITY. At this point let's assume you know our policies, in the future expect to be held responsible for your words. ←Humus sapiens 10:52, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

HS, when you write "The argument that Ukrainian ethnonym “єврей” (yevrey) comes from Russian is ridiculous. Note the same root in Hebrew: עברי (ivri), Greek: Ἑβραῖος, English: Hebrew, etc. - see Jewish ethnonym for more. Do they all come from Russian as well?" you may be trying to make a point, but ridiculing Ukrainian for heavy borrowing from Russian is really not acceptable. Jd2718 12:13, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Please read more attentively. The usage of the term was introduced from Russian into Ukrainian and Byelorussian in 1933. It would be more beneficial if you actually read what was written instead of jumping to conclussions. It demeans your agument considerably.--74.97.231.8 18:00, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea what are you talking about: I did not ridicule Ukrainian for heavy borrowing from Russian, and it would be silly to do so. Back to the topic: the ethnonym עברי (Ivri) is thousands years old and doesn't come from Russian. ←Humus sapiens 23:47, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

I refer you to the Encyclopedia of Ukraine (online version)Jews in Ukraine They give current usage as (Ukrainian: zhydy, ievreï) with zhydy being used first. Niniowskyi's Ukrainia-English and English-Ukrainian dictionary (1990) Edmonton on p. 407-8 for Jew gives Жид, (єврей) and for Jewess жидівка (єврейка). secondary terms are given in brackets.No note is given about it being an ethnic slur. --Bandurist 15:46, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

This source does not support your claim that "Zhyd" is not considered to be an ethnic slur in Ukrainian.

Even if it did, this source does not cancel the others that we have discussed earlier. In particular the differences between its usage in Poland/W.Ukraine vs. the rest of Ukraine, Kiev included.

This source does not "give current usage" as you claim above. Since you keep pushing this pejorative ethnic slur against every evidence that it is offensive, and since you chose nothing better than an article describing mass murder of Jews by the Nazis, I find your behavior as uncivil and cannot assume good faith towards you anymore. ←Humus sapiens 07:52, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Zhyd in Ukrainian Means Jew

Zhyd in Ukrainian Means Jew The Encyclopedia of Ukraine, published by the University of Toronto Press, says that the word Jew has two Ukrainian equivalents: Zhyd and Yevrei. Zhyd is the common and correct word in Western Ukraine, as it is in Poland, while Yevrei is more common in Eastern Ukraine due to Russian influence. Some Jewish scholars such as Solomon Goldelman insist that Zhyd is the only correct word in Ukrainian for Jew. In the Ukrainian language Zhyd (Jew) and Yevrei (Hebrew) mean simply Jew and neither is pejorative. However, it should be noted that the Russian language uses Yevrei for Jew and does use Zhid as a pejorative.

When I asked Rabbi Bleich in Kiev which was the correct term in his opinion he answered that both Zhyd and Yevrei were acceptable in Ukrainian. --Bandurist 03:30, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

The response is in the previous section. ←Humus sapiens 07:54, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

P.Kulish was heavily in favor of YEVREY, because the word ZHID has already assumed its derogatory quality by 1850-60, under Russian influence.Galassi 12:27, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

death-camps.org vs. deathcamps.org

Both point to the same website, AFAIK. Please explain the edits. ←Humus sapiens 21:35, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Counterfeit ARC website online! Beware!

All,

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It appears that some of the counterfeit websites are linked to forums and websites sympathetic to Nazi and Supremacist groups.

If you read the following WHOIS listing at this link or from the text below you will note the original registration date of the genuine DeathCamps.org ARC website

WHOIS information for: deathcamps.org: NOTICE: Access to .ORG WHOIS information is provided to assist persons in determining the contents of a domain name registration record in the Public Interest Registry registry database. The data in this record is provided by Public Interest Registry for informational purposes only, and Public Interest Registry does not guarantee its accuracy. This service is intended only for query-based access. You agree that you will use this data only for lawful purposes and that, under no circumstances will you use this data to: (a) allow, enable, or otherwise support the transmission by e-mail, telephone, or facsimile of mass unsolicited, commercial advertising or solicitations to entities other than the data recipient's own existing customers; or (b) enable high volume, automated, electronic processes that send queries or data to the systems of Registry Operator or any ICANN-Accredited Registrar, except as reasonably necessary to register domain names or modify existing registrations. All rights reserved. Public Interest Registry reserves the right to modify these terms at any time. By submitting this query, you agree to abide by this policy. Domain ID:D90771355-LROR Domain Name:DEATHCAMPS.ORG Created On:30-Sep-2002 19:44:33 UTC Last Updated On:05-Jan-2007 07:51:51 UTC Expiration Date:30-Sep-2007 19:44:33 UTC Sponsoring Registrar:Schlund+Partner AG (R73-LROR) Status:OK Registrant ID:SPAG-31769436 Registrant Name:Chris Webb Registrant Street1:22 Wellwynds Road Registrant Street2: Registrant Street3: Registrant City:Cranleigh Registrant State/Province: Registrant Postal Code:GU6 8BP Registrant Country:GB Registrant Phone:+44.1483272054 Registrant Phone Ext.: Registrant FAX: Registrant FAX Ext.: Registrant Email:chrisrwebb1954@yahoo.co.uk Admin ID:SPAG-31769436 Admin Name:Chris Webb Admin Street1:22 Wellwynds Road Admin Street2: Admin Street3: Admin City:Cranleigh Admin State/Province: Admin Postal Code:GU6 8BP Admin Country:GB Admin Phone:+44.1483272054 Admin Phone Ext.: Admin FAX: Admin FAX Ext.: Admin Email:chrisrwebb1954@yahoo.co.uk Tech ID:SPAG-35545918 Tech Name:Carmelo Lisciotto Tech Organization:Action Reinhard Camps Foundation International Tech Street1:N/A Tech Street2: Tech Street3: Tech City:Boston Tech State/Province:MA Tech Postal Code:10012 Tech Country:US Tech Phone:+1.1111111 Tech Phone Ext.: Tech FAX: Tech FAX Ext.: Tech Email:info@deathcamps.org Name Server:NS19.1AND1.CO.UK Name Server:NS20.1AND1.CO.UK

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Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/User:ARC-deathcamps.org"

Vandalism

Hello. Some idiot erase some paragraphs and wrote this at the middle of the page: = World War II

Fixed, thank you for watching. BTW, next time you can do it yourself, see WP:RV. ←Humus sapiens 01:43, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

B**BS!!!!

It would be good if it could be corrected with the previous text. Thanks.

A History of Babyn Yar Investigation

I have been digging up anything and everything regarding Babyn Yar in Ukrainian sources for the past couple of weeks. Here is some of the material I have found which I think maybe worthy of discussion. I don't know if this could be included in the article. Rather than spoil it, here is what I have put togther

Babyn Yar is considered by some to be the greatest Jewish tragedy of WWII.

At the time in 1941 it was reported that the Nazis had herded thousands of Jews to an unused part of an Orthodox Cemetery in occupied Kiev. They commanded those who did not hand over their precious possessions to strip. All gold was removed from their clothes and that these Jews were deported from Kiev.

The truth however, was somewhat different.

Soviet scholars avoided mentioning Babyn Yar because it was also the place where in the late 1930’s hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian citizens were buried – victims of the Ukrainian Famine and NKVD executions..

In recent times however, interest has been once again turned to Babyn Yar and primarily the events that took place there during WWII.

Immediately after WWII Soviet Colonel and investigator O. Smirnov pointed out the matter of Babyn Yar at the Nuremberg trials. At that time it seems that the information was poorly presented and as a result was summarily dismissed by judges Murray Bernice and David Marcus who looked upon the Babyn Yar tragedy as one of secondary importance. As a result the tragedy was also not picked up at all by the Western Press.

During the Nuremberg Trials the tragedies of Lviv, Crimea and Odessa took precedence. At that time Babyn Yar only had approximately 100 thousand victims, whereas Lviv was reported to have had 600 thousand (according to the report of the Special State Commission of December 23, 1944), Crimea 200 thousand victims who were drowned, and Odessa 200 thousand were reported to have been burned alive. In Kharkiv, it was reported that 195 thousand Jews were killed, and the town of [[Slavuta lost 150 thousand “Soviet citizens”. (These numbers are taken from the 48 volume collection of materials regarding the Nuremberg Trials for 14 November, 1945 and 1 October, 1946 which were published in 1947. Currently these statistics are rarely mentioned as they have been shown to have been over-inflated.)

With the formation of the State of Israel the Soviet Union intensified its anti-Israeli policies. For 15 years no mention was made about any Jewish tragedy in Babyn Yar or in any other centre. In 1960 however, the babyn Yar matter surfaced once again.

Joseph Schechtman, a delegate from Odessa to the Ukrainian National Council in 1919 and later the Secretary for Jewish Nationalities under the Petlura government in Kiev in 1921 had emigrated to the United States where during WWII he worked with the OSS and later the CIA. In 1960 Schechtman visited Ukraine and upon returning to the United States published in 1961 his book «Star in Eclipse» which gives an account of the Babyn Yar tragedy.

Schlechtman’s book however, did not at the time do much raise awareness of the Babyn Yar tragedy. In 1966 during a period of anti-German and anti-Ukrainian campaigns in Ukraine, the Babyn Yar tragedy was once again brought to the forefront. In 1968 criminal proceedings were launched in Darmschtadt where 11 executions were ordered. At this time the New York Times published an article which awakened the American Jewish diaspora to the happenings at Babyn Yar.

In 1987 in a cinema documentary film by Vitaly Korotych, the editor of the influential Ogonek magazine, also brought the tragedy to the forefront.

In the 1990’s the Babyn Yar massacre began to be associated with the largest single massacre in the history of humanity. --Bandurist 03:27, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Schechtman is an author guilty of really serious, unpleasant and blatant untruths, as I've noted below in my response to JPGordon. He may have produced something useful about Babi Yar, but some of his writing is at the level of David Irving, if not worse. PR 11:49, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

The mystery in an enigma

The Head of the Jewish Council of Ukraine Illiya Levitas states that Babyn Yar is “a mystery wrapped in an enigma”. In an article “Undecyphered secrets of Babyn Yar “ published in the weekly newspaper “Yevreyski vesti” in 1993 he wrote about the killing of Jews in Babyn Yar, however he also stated that there were some 15 conflicting items in the history which have not been adequately explained and which troubled him. He stated that “the number of Jewish victims is constantly rising, despite the fact that the special commission for the study of criminal acts done by the Fascists on occupied territory, which began to work immediately after Kiev was liberated from the Nazi’s, gives a precise number of 33 771 people. How this number came into the hands of the Special Commission is also unexplained. The exact same number was in both Soviet and German documents and this is what he called a “mystery wrapped in an enigma”.

There is a suggestion that the secret report of the Einsatzgruppen where this number appears could possibly be a forgery created by the Soviets. This however has not been proved either way. http://www.einsatzgruppenarchives.com/osr101. htmlhttp://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/german/einsatzgruppen/osr/osr-101.html

There are also numerous discrepancies from eye-witnesses regarding such mundane things as the weather during this time period, which also attested to some distortion of information. --Bandurist 03:27, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Ukrainian text discussion from HS, jd talk pages

I removed the note about Zhyd being a slur in Ukrainian, except for those areas under Polish control (1920-39). user:Humus Sapiens reverted me. We exchanged these notes, which may be of general interest: Jd2718 22:43, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Are you able to read Russian and Ukrainian links provided at talk? FYI, I have lived in Kiev for decades and I know what I am talking about. Imagine someone trying to prove that the n-word or any other ethnic slur is not offensive. ←Humus sapiens 22:15, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not going to claim that the term in Ukrainian is or is not offensive. But there has been some dispute.

FWIW, we have, as of 1940, a non-standardized or semi-standardized Ukrainian language, we don't know if our translator (German to Ukrainian) is a German, a Kiev Ukrainian, a Western Ukrainian, or something else, and we certainly don't know his dialect. We do know, or should know, that the vast majority of Kiev's Jews read Ukrainian as a third language, if at all.

The signs in Russian carry the slur, the German versions do not. The Ukrainian version, the only one that has been subject of this low-level edit war, is essentially irrelevant. The article loses nothing by its absence. jd2718 22:33, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

This is not about the "translator" or "his dialect" but about a historical announcement/document published in Kiev. Since you do not seem to be familiar with the subject and do not speak the language, why do you think you are qualified to judge? ←Humus sapiens 22:46, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

You've introduced the issue of dialect by excepting Ukrainian-under-Polish-rule from your explanation of the translation. This talk page (above) includes dispute over what meanings the word carried, when, and where. Even were you a professional translator, we recognize no such credential here on WP (ty, Essjay). So all we have is two editors who disagree (three if you count Bandurist). I offered that the detail is unimportant. Who really cares about the tone of the Ukrainian? Its primary purpose was likely to warn Ukrainians against looting; Jews would have read the Russian, about which all agree. So why not just drop the commentary on the Ukrainian altogether? And while the question is quite irrelevant, out of curiousity: I am assuming you do not claim Ukrainian as your first language? Jd2718 23:02, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I speak the language, I know the culture and I know some history, but my personal data does not matter. I consider this bit of factual information important. I am open to some rewording if needed, but not removal just because some deniers (no matter how many) want it removed. ←Humus sapiens 23:58, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Why do you consider this piece of information important? (for the moment, let me ask just that question, and leave questions of accuracy aside).

It is a matter of civility. Imagine someone insisting that the N-word or any other ethnic slur is not offensive. ←Humus sapiens 07:32, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

But certainly we don't mention every detail of every Nazi slur? There is no encyclopedia large enough. What makes this instance notable? Jd2718 11:00, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

No one offers to list "every detail of every Nazi slur" - anything rational can be overblown to absurd proportions. I already showed that the first 4 words of this announcement became emblematic, here are more links: , , , , , , ...

Given today's pseudo-patriotic attempts in the ex-USSR to rewrite and glamorize history, a better question would be: Why pretend that an ethnic slur is not offensive to its target and mollify deniers? ←Humus sapiens 21:13, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I read slowly, but so far all of the links are in Russian (I would go faster in Ukrainian, since I can only guess at meanings). I still disagree, but would like to drop the point (from discussion; leave it in the article) Jd2718 00:51, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

The last one is in Ukrainian, but it cites Kuznetsov's original Russian. Languages aside, I was simply trying to prove that the announcement is notoriously infamous. ←Humus sapiens 09:25, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Rememberance

HS, thank you for improving this article. I am a bit puzzled by the Kuznetsov citation. What is it telling us? And why is it significant? Not really related, but that last bit on vandalism (introduced, if you'll forgive me, in a way that annoyed one group of editors) and the notation about the official Ukrainian government response (really, a response by the offended editors to the reference to vandalism), is that piece of information and the official response notable in the context of this article? Jd2718 23:54, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. 1) Perhaps I should have brought the Kuznetsov citation here at talk first. I do not insist on its inclusion. 2) I cannot comprehend how the sourced info concerning desecration of a memorial of the largest massacre in the Holocaust could be considered non-notable in the article about it. ←Humus sapiens 07:18, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Had there been one act of vandalism, perhaps 15 years ago, I am not so certain what the answer would be. But this incident is fresh; it stays. That is reasonable.

Is Kuznetsov himself prominent? That might justify the inclusion of some quote. But the citation itself was rambling - it feels almost stream of conscious. Was there a single point or small group of points that you were using it to illustrate? Or just that it had just been published? (in which case perhaps mentioning it, but not citing it, would be the better option) Jd2718 10:58, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

If you don't know how Kuznetsov is prominent, my suggestion would be to learn more before you proceed. I added this quote to reiterate the point that Babi Yar is an "international grave". ←Humus sapiens 19:59, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I didn't realize it was the same Kuznetsov cited as an eye-witness. That, the eye-witness part, seems to be his notability - and the suppression of his writing based on it. I'm going to suggest that the quote be cut down to the last few sentences, to add emphasis to the "international grave" point. Jd2718 23:39, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

OK, I've shortened that quote. Also found a ref for the murder of the mentally ill. ←Humus sapiens 00:37, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you; the point is well-made. Jd2718 00:52, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

street name

One of the local streets was renamed for a Ukrainian poetess who killed in the ravine. I don't know when the renaming happened. I wonder if it was an attempt to (there is no way not to put this badly, I do apologize) claim a share of the victimization? Personally it bothers me (why should 37,000 Jews be anonymous while one non-Jew is honored) but the article is not supposed to be about personal feelings. Should the connection between the streetname and the site be mentioned? How? Jd2718 00:56, 21 June 2007 (UTC) Okay, first of all, 2/3 of people executed at Babin Yar were non Jews- mostly Ukrainians, some Russians. So do you really think that their names should be kept silent? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Smythe03 (talk • contribs) 14:29, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I may share the feeling, but I think it should stay here at talk until we find a reliable source. ←Humus sapiens 09:30, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Olena Teliha is well known in the Ukrainian community as a talanted poetess. She spent most of her life during the mid war years in Prague and Warsaw. Because of this and the fact that her poetry and community activities were Ukrainocentric she was ignored or downplayed by Soviet scholars. She actually knew that she was going to be executed at Babyn Yar and left a note about it before being executed.

Her husband, who was also executed in Babyn Yar was also a prominent musician and composer. I have a number of his solo recordings (produced in Poland in the 20-30's) and also books in my library. He was originally from the Kuban and was one of the founding members of the Kyiv Bandurist Chorus. He had the choice of not accompanying his wife to be shot, but chose to be at her side.

There is a monument specifically dedicated to Olena on the Babyn Yar site. There was a sentence or two about her, and her execution, in Babyn Yar in Wiki article earlier, however it was removed a number of times.

There were many prominent Ukrainian victims executed in Babyn Yar such as Professor Makhynia, Yevhen Forostivsky and his wife, I. Romanov the head city engineer, Professor Lazerenko the rector of the Kyiv Medical University, Ivan Rohach the editor of the Ukrainian literary newspaper "Slovo", his author wife, numerous other less prominent writers, such as Ivan Irliansky, Ivan Roshko, Ivan Koshyk, Vasyl Kobryn, Yuri Ihnatenko, Roman Bitsa, Petro Oliynyk, Yaroslav Orshan-Chemerynsky (newspaper editor), I. Sychenko, the rector of the Kyiv Politechnical Institute Teodosiy Cherednychenko, the head of the oblast union of food workers I. Bondarenko with his wife and children, the football players M. Trusevych, O. Klymenko, I. Kuz'menko, M. Korotkyj, a couple of dozen Ukrainian orthodox priests, monks and nuns among them Bishop Vyshniakov and Archbishop. Pavlo. To them there is a huge oaken wooden cross erected on the memorial site.

Why their names were removed from the Wiki site? One can only speculate, however these people did exist and they were executed there.

They were however executed there on February 22, 1942 some 6 months after the reported mass Jewish extermination --Bandurist 11:17, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Proposed move?

Obviously the main focus of this article is the massacre, as it should be. Should we perhaps rename the article to Babi Yar massacre, just for accuracy's sake? K. Lásztocska 18:52, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

This is unnecessary, as the toponym became synonimous with what occurred there, much like Treblinka, Auschwitz etc.Galassi 19:01, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Ah, a very good point. K. Lásztocska 19:12, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Letter to the editor

Bandurist has attempted to link a "letter to the editor" as an external source. The letter, written in 1991 to a Toronto newspaper, is from a Ukrainian nationalist who denies, by arguing lack of evidence, that Ukrainian police were in any way involved in the massacre. The link itself is to a Canadian hate site.

There is nothing in this letter that would tend to make it valuable. It could not be used as a reliable source. It should not be used as a reference.

Further, I do not know why the editor linked a hate site. Jd2718 17:08, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Poor guy. A link to a letter to the editor of the Toronto Star - you call a hate site. I pity you. Bandurist 20:01, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

You didn't link the Toronto newspaper; you linked a Canadian hate site. Jd2718 20:19, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Here is the link I gave. It comes up as a clipping from the Toronto Star. Toronto Star letter to editor re Ukrainian participation in Babi YarBandurist 21:12, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

We don't link to hate sites, and that's exactly what freedomsite.org is. Letters to the editor are not reliable sources, so we don't link those, either. --jpgordon 22:46, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

We seem to link to hate-sites and sources all over the project - astonishingly, we often even use "facts" they argue. I don't believe that that is the case with this letter, which provides (undisputable?) evidence that Babi Yar has been used as a weapon against Ukranians, and some/nationalist Ukranians very much resent the implication. The letter could even be wilful denial (I'm going by gut-feeling here, I've not examined the case), it would still belong (perhaps criticised?) as important background. Only if "Wasyl Veryha" is a convicted war-criminal and/or universally condemned by other Ukranians should we gloss over this little bit of history. (If he is a war-criminal, then I'm sorry and I'll delete that part of my little rant - but there is also a much wider point here and it's time we got our head around it - read onwards).

Evidence that we use a hate-source (for "facts"), guilty of both "gross historical fabrication" and ethno-specific abuse is right in this very article: "In his 1961 book Star in Eclipse: Russian Jewry Revisited, Joseph Schechtman provided an account of the Babi Yar tragedy.".

How do we know we're using hate-sources? Because another of Schechtman's books ("The Arab Refugee Problem") states: "Until the Arab armies invaded Israel on the very day of its birth, May 15, 1948, no quarter whatsoever had ever been given to a Jew who fell into Arab hands. Wounded and dead alike were mutilated. Every member of the Jewish community was regarded as an enemy to be mercilessly destroyed." (Note the bolded portion, the part that shows both faults I've identified).

I'm absolutely behind you in removing hate-sources - but lets make it clear what it is we're opposing. It's not (or should not be) glimpses of the torment of people like Ukranian "Wasyl Veryha", whose people suffered enormously in the war. It's aimed at people like Schechtman, who is/was a Jewish Ukranian - but from Odessa, a long way from Kiev. He left there in 1920 and "Star in Eclipse: Russian Jewry Revisited" is (presumably) "historical" and full of "gross historical fabrications" against other suffering people, just like his Palestine book. PR 11:39, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Schechtman's opinion apropos Arab-Israeli war is absolutely irrelevant here, and his book is merely mentioned but not cited in this article. Take your poison somewhere else.Galassi 14:04, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

As to Weryha, he IS a historian. However although he seems to have been a participant in the Ukr. nationalist movement during WW2- he has a clear agenda ~(contradicted by all historical evidence), and there is no proof that that is his real name.Galassi 14:10, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Schechtman poses as a historian - while he fabricates history and incites hatred against other ethnicities. The clip I've posted you above is far worse than anything I can see at the "Freedomsite". On top of what I've pointed you to, Schechtman was pretty much discredited by Childers in 1961, accused of fabricating great chunks of evidence about the "Endorsement to Flight".

What do we know about Babi-Yar? Well, it turns out that the utterly unreliable and unpleasant Schechtman himself seems to be the first significant reporter of it, 20 years after the event. A further 15 years passed before the Soviets raised a memorial, even they were in a state of shock and disbelief and amnesia about what the Nazis had done.

It's possible that Wasyl Veryha is as bad .... but our article doesn't actually suggest that it was Ukranian policemen who massacred the Jews of Kiev - so he's not denying anything we've got anyway. He's trying to put down school-ground taunts - if we're opposed to his voice being heard then it's not for any of the reasons I've seen here. Let's root out real hate-sources, not muddy the water with these other accusations against "Freedomsite" and Ukranians. PR 21:23, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

1. This article is not based on Schechtman. 2. Babi Yar is sufficiently documented without S. 3. Stop wasting our time.Galassi 21:30, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

PalestineRemembered, you've wandered off topic. Bandurist tried to add a (non-noteworthy) link to a rightwing, racist, anti-immigrant website. It doesn't belong. It's gone. Done. Feel free to examine the sources used in this article; if there are problems, we should correct them. But that's a different matter. Jd2718 00:02, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Let's wind up this educational exchange with policy based statements - we're (quite authoritatively) informed, twice, that "Freedomsite" is a hate-source. (I think you're asking me not to further explore the strange and slightly disturbing argument that we therefore exclude it as a source for "evidence" as to the existence/content of an artifact).

A quick scan of this now accepted "hate-site" tells me it defends potential racists and anti-immigrants from prosecution (in the US this would not arise, there are no such laws to break). It also seeks to smear a controversial war-crime investigator, but the same individual is at odds (on grounds "don't censor the Internet") with the director of the world-leading, highly respected Nizkor "expose Holocaust Denial" web-site, so this is hardly a federal case. The "smearing" of Littman appears to be carefully fact-based and relatively restrained - although he's called a liar, there is no attempt to apply even the kind of personal abuse Littman himself uses.

If that's the "hate-site standard" we're now operating to (ie much tighter than the previous standard of "not David Irving territory"), then Schechtman is right out there in the lunatic fringe.

There is no chance of me becoming an expert on Babi Yar, so I'll pass on your kind invitation to correct the (likely serious) problems introduced by giving Schechtman any credibility whatsoever. If people insist on having him here, then the integrity of this part of the project is seriously compromised. Obviously I cannot be sure, but if he was really the first outside, English speaking investigator to reach Kiev (20 years after it happened), then it's highly likely he's contaminated every secondary source we have too. PR 13:30, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

nonsense

I see an edit of mine was reverted and called nonsense. I removed the the phrase "of whom a significant number were Jews" from the following paragraph:

In the months that followed, thousands more were seized and taken to Babi Yar where they were shot. It is estimated that more than 100,000 people, mostly civilians, of whom a significant number were Jews, were executed by the Nazis there during the Second World War.

The reference links to a source which says:

In the months that followed, many more thousands of Jews were seized, taken to Babi Yar, and shot. Among the general population there were some who helped Jews go into hiding, but there were also a significant number who informed on them to the Germans and gave them up. After the war, the officer in charge of the Sipo and SD bureau testified that his Kiev office received so many letters from the Ukrainian population informing on Jews - "by the bushel" - that the office could not deal with them all, for lack of manpower. Evidence of betrayal of Jews by the Kiev population was also given by Jewish survivors and by the Soviet writer Anatoly Kuznetsov.

Babi Yar served as a slaughterhouse for non-Jews as well, such as GYPSIES and Soviet prisoners of war. According to the estimate given by the Soviet research commission on Nazi crimes, 100,000 persons were murdered at Babi Yar.

The first sentence in the para clearly links to the first sentence I have extracted from the source, referring to Jews. The next sentence seems to link to the second para about non-Jews. The phrase "significant number" is extracted fron the first paragraph, and refers to informers, not to victims. No indication at all is given in the source as to the proportion of the "more than 100,000 people" who were Jewish - though it was obviously more (and presumably considerably more) than 33,771 out of 100,000. That this is a significant number is not in doubt, but that the source does not say that is also clear. There is no need to have this phrase, since the information is already given - making the phrase "significant number" virtualy meaningless. I suggest that this whole sentence be rephrased to avoid the impression that a source is being misquoted, since the expression "significant number" in the source clearly does not refer to victims. Paul B (talk) 15:19, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

List of Ukrainian nationalist victims

The list of Ukrainian Nationalists in the article is inappropriate. The singling out of a small, non-representative sample of victims, esp since the group would be the political allies of the current leaders in Kiev, and when most are non-notable, is irredeemably POV. The list should be deleted. Jd2718 (talk) 01:21, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. The tragedy at Babi Yar is not just a Jewish tragedy but one that also affected ethnic Ukrainians and other nationalities. Prominent Ukrainian cultural leaders, writers and musicians and clerics were murdered there. They deserve to be remembered and mentioned in the article. --Bandurist (talk) 04:12, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't think there is a need to list the Ukrainian victims of the massacre, beyond the few most prominent (if such judgment can be made). Babi Yar is inherently a Jewish tragedy, albeit it affected other nationalities as well. So perhaps a compromise can be found around condensing the "further executions" section. For example, leave everything up to the Teliha couple, and then There were many other prominent Ukrainian victims executed in Babyn Yar such as Ivan Rohach the editor of the Ukrainian literary newspaper "Slovo", I. Sychenko, the rector of the Kyiv Politechnical Institute, and a couple of dozen Ukrainian orthodox priests, monks and nuns among them Bishop Vyshniakov and Archbishop. Pavlo. To them the, and yetre is a huge oaken wooden cross erected on the memorial site. The rest of the names can be moved to an article about the wooden cross memorial dedicated specifically to them.--Riurik 06:24, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I was concerned about the list because I wouldn't want it turning into either a long set of lists of different "sets" of people murdered here, or a lopsided set with one "group" discussed and not another, causing constant friction among editors on this page. I'd look for some compromise that ensured that neither happened. Relata refero (talk) 10:15, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Relata, how will you start listing the Jewish victims? How is it possible to list 10 of 600, and none of 50,000? And how does a list of a few names help the article? How would knowing a name better explain what Babi Yar was? Jd2718 (talk) 11:27, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

If you know of any prominent Jewish cultural figures amongst those executed please add them. I know that Olena Teliha and her husband Mykhailo Teliha have their own separate articles on wikipedia and indeed one of the streets on which the memorial complex lies is named after Olena Teliha. With this in mind, I do not think it is fitting to remove her name only because she had Ukrainian nationalist aspirations or because many of the victims cannot be named. Bandurist (talk) 12:25, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Bandurist, your username makes me suspect you might not be entirely neutral on the subject of Mykhailo Teliha :)

Seriously, though, I understand your point, but do you feel the omission of a few prominent cultural figures from the article is worth the problems of balance that will follow?

I note, however, that there is no fixed approach in matters such as this. Auschwitz and Buchenwald have lists of prominent inmates/victims, but Treblinka and Belzec do not. Katyn does, 1941 Odessa massacre does not. Relata refero (talk) 12:54, 25 February 2008 (UTC)r

Bandurist, do you mean as prominent as "a couple of dozen Ukrainian orthodox priests..."? Jd2718 (talk) 13:11, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

No. Obviously that sentence could be improved and could be made more specific. How would you rephrase it?

I do feel strongly however, that mentioning the fact that Ukrainian orthodox clergy were killed at the site is important. Keep in mind that under the Soviet regime they would not have been allowed to practice their religion, particularly if they were Ukrainian Orthodox rather than than Russian orthodox. This also sheds light as to who actually was killed. Both of the Telihas emigrated to Kyiv during the period of the occupation and were not Kyivites. I suspect that the orthodox priests may have also emigrated to Kyiv possibly from Volyn, but that cannot be backed up by any sources as yet. There are many questions as to why this happened, and the mechanism which it followed. Much of this has not been answered yet, but undoubtably will be in the near future as more light is shed on the massacre and wevne more questions asked. Bandurist (talk) 15:10, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

(undent) I don't if this is going to help or cause more problems, but there is now List of victims of the Babi Yar massacre. I would suggest organizing it by profession and then by nationality, but if nationality seems preferred, it's there. It's massively incomplete, so I hope everyone works there. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 20:33, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Map showing sites location

I thik one of th3 things missing from the article is a map showing the location for the site and directions how people can get there to visit the memorials. I also think more should be done to present and expose the extent of collaboration of OUN members not only at this site but also at other sites of jewish massacares in Western Ukraine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.243.157.204 (talk) 18:26, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

We give the streets. Is a map available? And are you saying OUN members participated? We'd need the source. Jd2718 (talk) 01:02, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

OUN-M. See below. --Relata refero (disp.) 15:56, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Participation of Ukrainian Police

...is not in dispute. But a user is attempting to remove it from the lead. Comments? Jd2718 (talk) 13:16, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

In the lead it states:

a special team of German Nazi SS aided by Ukrainian police murdered 33,771 Jewish civilians.ref name="USHMM">United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Holocaust Encyclopedia

1) The link http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/ Holocaust Encyclopedia which you give as a source comes up - "The page cannot be found".

2) The statement is written in such a manner that implies the "Ukrainian police" were aiding directly in the killing. I cannot find any evidence of this. Which "Ukrainian" police are you referring to?

At the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum site I found - German authorities stationed at Kiev killed thousands more Jews at Babi Yar

[http://www.ushmm.org/shared/search/searchresults.php?cx=008795841384874293445:jtbtbquu4k8&sa=Search&cof=FORID%3A11&q=babi%20yar

] There is no mention of "Ukrainian police" taking part in the killings.

Among the most extensive massacres perpetrated by members of the Einsatzgruppen, along with SS and police personnel, was the systematic murder of 34,000 Jews at Babi Yar, a ravine to the northwest of Kiev, on September 29-30, 1941. Another massive operation was the murder of more than 25,000 Latvian Jews from the Riga ghetto in two short periods, November 29-30, 1941, and December 8-9, 1941.

[http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005518 ]

EINSATZGRUPPEN AND OTHER SS AND POLICE UNITS IN THE SOVIET UNION

Once again no mention of "Ukrainian" Police taking part in the killing.

Although I understand that Ukrainians took part in the rounding up of Jews and directing them to Babiy Yar, I have not come across any evidence that they participated directly in the killing.

Note also that there were a number of different types of Police groupings during the Nazi occupation often grouped around ethnic lines. There were even Jewish police in most of the cities. The Hilfspolizei formed to keep order in the cities initially did not have uniforms and only wore arm bands to distinguish themselves. They did not have guns but were armed with had rubber truncheons. There was also an auxiliary police force made up of locals known as the Schuetzmannschaft Ordungspolizei (Schuma). These were armed but were used primarily against partisans. Which were the ones in Babiy Yar? From the photographs to me it looks like they were the first group.

Bandurist (talk) 13:57, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

There is a good US Holocaust Memorial Museum link. Either the site was internally reorganized, or the WP editor who added the refs used search result urls instead of permanent links. In any case, here is their Babi Yar page, with reference to support by Ukrainian units: http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005421 . I will adjust the refs in the article, as necessary. Jd2718 (talk) 15:12, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

The USHMM links in the article were ok. Jd2718 (talk) 15:19, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

The Ukrainian Police claim (it is not come from USHMM, which does not specify what sort of Ukrainian units were involved) comes from http://www.zchor.org/BABIYAR.HTM and is currently footnote #4. That link is activeJd2718 (talk) 15:19, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

On their identity: German sources as well as local witnesses confirm the presence of non-German auxiliaries; various accounts suggest that the victims were "marched down a corridor" of these police, or were undressed, "kicked and shoved" towards the execution squads by them.

It is likely that these auxiliaries - as well as the Ukrainians at the checkpoint and those who shouted about waiting trains - belonged to units created and commanded by Melnykites, namely the "Bukovinian battalion" and a company of what was then called the "Ukranian Police".

From Berkhoff, Karel Cornelis (2004). Harvest of Despair: Life and Death in Ukraine Under Nazi Rule. Harvard University Press. p. 68. This can be added if necessary. --Relata refero (disp.) 15:43, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

If the problem is that the current wording implies that they contributed members to the firing squads, which is not generally considered to be the case, then it can be changed. I however think that "assisted" seems reasonably accurate. --Relata refero (disp.) 15:53, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree it is biased. Read the lead: a special team of xxxxx aided by Ukrainian police murdered It is implied that they aided in murdering. This is implied by this statement included in the lead. If it were placed in the text, where more context could be aided, it would be OK. But this bare sentence right of the bat levelling an accusation is indeed POV. --Hillock65 (talk) 16:22, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

The Bukovynian Battalion

Regarding the Bukovynian Battalion. According to Ukrainian historians the battalion entered Kyiv between the first days of November, being documented in Kyiv by the 23rd November. As a result they could not have taken part in the mass executions in Babiy Yar in September.

So where does the myth of the inclusion of the Bukovynian battalion and Babiy Yar come from? The first mentions come from a book by film director Alex Shlayen written in 1981 and published in 1995.

An article about the conflicting dates of the Bukovynian Battalions stay in Kyiv appeared in the Ukrainian Historian Journal by Vitaly Nakhmanovych - the secretary of the Babiy Yar Committee.

For further information a shortened web version of the article appears here. See БУКОВИНСЬКИЙ КУРІНЬ І МАСОВІ РОЗСТРІЛИ ЄВРЕЇВ У БАБИНОМУ ЯРУ - The Bukovynian Battalion and the mass shootings of Jews in Babiy Yar (in Ukrainian) Bandurist (talk) 17:01, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Relata Refero's source identifies the police as Ukrainian, and guesses that they were Melnyk's. It is certainly possible for the source to have the unit wrong. And units were formed and merged. But no source questions the presence of Ukrainian units. Jd2718 (talk)

Guessing is not very encyclopaedic. The auxillary police was officially formed in Kiev in November from the soldiers of the Kiev battalion. That's 2 months after the massacre. Bandurist (talk) 17:32, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Petro Zakhvalynski

You have:

The implementation of the decision to kill all the Jews of Kiev was entrusted to Sonderkommando 4a. This unit consisted of SD (Sicherheitsdienst; Security Service) and Sicherheitspolizei (Security Police; Sipo) men; the third company of the Special Duties Waffen-SS battalion; and a platoon of the No. 9 police battalion. The unit was reinforced by police battalions Nos. 45 and 305 and by units of the Ukrainian auxiliary police (under command of Petro Zakhvalynski).

The Russian Misplaced Pages gives: Занимал должность коменданта полиции г. Киева с ноября 1941. The Ukrainian Misplaced Pages tells us: That he took on the position of commаndant of the Kiev police from November 1941, which is the time when the auxillary Police force was officially formed (from the Kiev battalion), in September there was no Ukrainian Auxillary police in Kiev. It had not yet been officially formed. Zakhvalynski arrived in Kyiv in October. How could he participate or command the Ukrainian Auxillary police for an action that took place in September? Bandurist (talk) 17:21, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

All the on-line sources, including the one that is attached to the quote with the number and commander of the unit, confirm the presence of Ukrainian police. However, that source, and none of the others, seems to include that quote in full, and none name which Ukrainian police unit, or which commander. I am trying to locate the diff where this was added. In the meantime I am deprecating it from quote to text and commenting out the material that seems unsourced. Jd2718 (talk) 17:40, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Previous version, naming only the German officer in charge of the Ukrainian auxilliaries: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Babi_Yar&oldid=90552563

More detail and source were added in this edit. I will ask HS to comment. The source is Spector. It must have gotten mangled in later editing.

But it is this edit which introduces the quote naming the Commander. I cannot find where in the source this quote occurs. I will ask HS to comment. Jd2718 (talk) 17:57, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

1. Cite error: The named reference Spector was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

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