Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 19:43, 13 May 2008

Word of the day
Treeware. noun. /'triwɛər/.
An antediluvian method of publishing information on a portable medium created from processed arboreal macerate, often with decorative covers glossed by petrochemical solids.

"Reginald went to the athenaeum to peruse treeware with the assistance of an informatics professional."

Thought of the day: I am seriously and vastly disturbed by the proposals for increased bureaucracy and centralized committees flying about Misplaced Pages recently. I strongly oppose any such change, and will depart the community if it takes this well-meaning but vastly wrong-headed turn (as it is directly contradictory to the community I joined). It is a solution to a problem that only exacerbates the problem. The problems are being caused by rigid interpretations of the rules and excessive bureaucratic sprawl. Adding more of the same is not a solution, it's masochistic and foolish. 01:26, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Help me out.

• Take a look over History of early Christianity and Apostolic Age and provide some feedback on the talk pages. Thanks! 06:06, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
• Contribute some thoughts and feedback to m:Dispute resolution analysis group.

• What I did today and thought of the day archives: 1
• Talk Page archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9

Civility concerns

You may recall the exchange below from a little less than a week ago on my talk page. While I am not going to address Keeper's comments regarding your neutrality, I am interested in how my concerns were breaches in civility. I had waited for you to respond, and after waiting a sufficient amount of time to have you reply, I decided to come on over and ask a tad more pointedly.

(edit conflict) I was closing this with the comments: Civility concerns are among the least of the problems in this dispute and being polite about being disruptive doesn't lessen the disruption. However, you have not been as civil as you'd claim. For example, snide passive-aggressive comments about the other party, such as in this block request, are hardly what would normally be called "polite" or "civil". This dispute is certainly getting beyond edit warring disruptive as well, justifying a slightly longer block. here and here are little more than huge mounds of bickering. Both of you certainly know better. — Vassyana (talk) 19:43, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Might I trouble you to point out the "snide, passive-aggressive comments" in my unblock request? If an accurate description, how is it in fact snide? And if I have not been polite in my dealings with the other party, could you perhaps present an example or two of such? Understand that I am not debating the block reasoning; I am requesting you provide examples of that which I do not see. If I am making mistakes in how I perceive politeness, I would want to know them, and avoid such in the future. - Arcayne () 20:35, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

For example, the comment: "... I would point out that I did not game the system by offering a tendentious edit and then request page protection to lock that version in place less than 10 minutes later." Comments like that are clearly a way of accusing someone else of that exact action. That style of comment is not an isolated incident for you, with some comments more snarky (or snide) than others. One can be accurate without being derogatory or derisive. Vassyana (talk) 20:47, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Er, is that not an accurate assessment of what happened? The very first line of WP:GAME states:

Gaming the system means using Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines in bad faith, to deliberately thwart the aims of Misplaced Pages and the process of communal editorship.

By editing outside of consensus (aka communal editorship), and then seeking to have the article protected less than ten minutes afterwards to prevent that edit from being subject to revision, how is that not gaming the system?

Now, if you mean by snarky or snide that I was instead guilty of calling a spade a WP:SPADE, I will grant you that. However, I do not see how calling it such was derogatory or derisive, though. Please help me understand. - Arcayne () 21:39, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

To Vassyana: Vassyana, are you confident that you are a neutral, reviewing admin, to deny a request for unblock, considering you've blocked Arcayne yourself in the recent past? this seems to me to be a good place to recuse yourself and let others talk with Arcayne (I'm not endorsing the block, or endorsing any future unblock at this point, just pointing out the block log to anyone else that wanders into this page... Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 21:47, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

- Arcayne () 03:25, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

You can be accurate without being derogatory and derisive. Defending oneself by such snide tu quoque arguments is hardly the height of civility or maturity, to be generous. If you earnestly cannot distinguish between legitimate complaints, reasonable self-defense and rudely snarky comments, there's not much I can do. I can, at best, perhaps point out a few comments and give your some description of what is problematic about them. Vassyana (talk) 04:45, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

No, I can see how I began to lose my patience with the constant verbal attacks, but I don't think I ever crossed the same lines that Viriditas was. I would appreciate your input on those comments. I would also enjoy hearing about how I could better have phrased such a complaint. I honestly don't think I created this recent problem. - Arcayne () 07:56, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Please don't misinterpret me to mean that "it's all your fault", as that is not at all my intent. As I mention in my original message to you, there were huge piles of bickering between the both of you, and I believe you both know better. If someone is getting under your skin, disengage for a bit and cool down. One thing I can clearly recommend is when defending yourself, do not impugn the other party. It can easily come across as petty, snide and/or otherwise problematic (as well as relying on a logical fallacy). Stick to talking about your own actions, taking a bit of blame as is appropriate. If you have complaints about another party, try to avoid phrasing it in such a way that is aggressive or inflammatory, and try to keep the complaint distinct and separate from other issues (as much as possible). Let's use the above example as a general template. It would be best to first take a breath and make sure you're calm. Then, post a message to say AN/I with a post titled "Concerns about Article X" or something similar. The message could be simply: "On Article X, an editor made an edit and immediately requested full protection. I believe this was to lock that version into place. (Yes, I know about protection versions.) Could a few admins look over the situation?" Mind you, that is a quite sanitized and deferential version. Honey, vinegar, bees and all that. You are more likely to receive a good response by minimizing the accusations and putting emphasis on the evidence and your awareness of common rebuttals. Anyone around long enough and active enough to become an admin should be well-enough familiar with tendentiousness and playing the system to deal with such problems appropriately. Does that all make sense? Vassyana (talk) 08:37, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

It does, though I am still a bit unsure as to how to address the problem that resulted in me blocked, ie., the problem with Viriditas. He is capable of doing good work elsewhere, and clearly, knows how to use the system to gain the upper hand. How does one address that? He has close to 40k edits - I actually have a full-time job and cannot match that edit rate. Understand that I am not trying to beat him; I am however, trying to avoid being out-maneuvered by him. - Arcayne () 18:01, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Without clicking on a single diff, Arcayne, my question to you is "why do you feel you need to out-maneuver anyone? I highly respect your content contributions, and meta contributions, and I was attempting to get you unblocked earlier. Your most recent post here, however, feels more like "I wanna win for me" instead of "I wanna better encyclopedia". Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the vindication your looking for is for your own good pleasure. Time to move along, perhaps, regardless of you or Viriditas' edit rate? Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 21:25, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps I misspoke. I am not interested in maneuvering anyone (or out-maneuvering); I was saying that I rather dislike being unable to stop someone from gaming the system to their advantage, when the neutral position is far more of a better place for an encyclopedia to be. Making a good encyclopedic entry does make me happy; those using to enforce their personal views is utterly frustrating. - Arcayne () 01:19, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I am still ready for input, Vass. - Arcayne () 03:54, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

One of the best things you can do is raise any issues for broader input via the noticeboards, RfC, third opinion, and so on. You've taken that route, but it's devolved into bickering with previous attempts. At that point, the use of such avenues is self-defeating. It is a natural human response to respond with a fair measure of apathy or antipathy, when facing arguments that go round and round. When you approach it as (or use language indicating) a struggle to be won, people will respond in a similar fashion. On this specific topic, I would recommend just walking away and revisiting the issue a bit later. On any further issues, or the raising of any particular topic later, I would recommend that you use the available methods of drawing outside opinion and that you keep such message as neutral and just-the-facts-ma'am as possible. Avoid being drawn into revolving arguments and keep your rebuttals on-point and to a minimum. As much as it may seem as though you are arguing about the topic at hand, bickering simply clouds the central issues and sabotages the dispute resolution process. Vassyana (talk) 04:20, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I am willing to give that a go. - Arcayne () 09:32, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Again

Vassyana, I want my editing to be above reproach. If you are willing I would very much like it if you would look over my edits, and if you see anything wrong tell me so I can correct it. There are certain situations where I'm in a quandary as to what should be done. For example, I wish I didn't feel that so many reverts were necessary. I take pains not to edit war, but don't know how to revert less than I do. The only way I really know to avoid some trouble would be to not edit in my Misplaced Pages area of interest, which I'm not willing to do. Short of that, I'm very open to suggestion. I have taken other suggestions in the past, such as at least attempting a 1rr policy when jossi suggested it. Anyway, your feedback would be welcome if you are willing. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 02:07, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, one of the things I can tell you bluntly upfront is that your response to my block and the unblock of ScienceApologist was highly inappropriate, bordering on rallying against SA. It was very opportunistic and completely not relevant to the situation at hand. Your comments had nothing to do with the block or the situation around it. Instead, it was just a chance to bitch about SA (accurate or not). You are not the only person that acts in such a fashion, but it is regardless deeply inappropriate and very disappointing. Part of the problem with that entire area of the wiki is that issues, complaints and disagreements get raised whenever certain editors or topics come into discussion that are not related to the issue at hand. It's disruptive in that it distracts from the discussion of the relevant issue and really is little more than trolling. If you wish to be taken more seriously and treated more respectfully, avoiding such tasteful action would be a very good start. Vassyana (talk) 19:39, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Hello Vassyana - a quick comment, and something to consider. I am for the most part an editor who likes to copy edit, but I have actively worked on a few articles on which MartinPhi also edits. My interest is not in making any comments on anyone's behaviour here, but I do believe that its worth noting that if Martin is on an article, he faces pretty much the same line up of editors, and the environment is not always easy to deal with. Martin is for the most part pretty even and controlled despite that environment. He seems highly sincere in what he does on those articles, and I see that he is humble enough and sincere enough to ask for help. Yes, I am defending him, because he's a valuable editor who behaves in a civil manner most of the time even when things become uncomfortable, and who edits where most editors would fear to tread. I'm not convinced that unless another editor is on the spot with him, he or she can really read the situation. I certainly couldn't until I had edited a few article on which he was also present. This is not a comment on recent events or behaviours, but rather a comment on an overall more holistic viewpoint, and a possibly another side of the story to consider. Just a thought or two. Thanks.(olive (talk) 23:18, 10 May 2008 (UTC))

One comment: I can work with Martin and he makes many valid arguments. It's his obsesion with SA's behaviour that makes him lose it --Enric Naval (talk) 05:47, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Olive, I can understand the point you're making. However, Martin asked for honest feedback and there was a recent example to point out. I'd rather be blunt and forward with him, than pussyfoot around and never really get across what I see as a problem. I understand perfectly well that people on both sides are quite correctly frustrated with some editors. However, what the other side does wrong is not a valid excuse for stepping over the line oneself. Vassyana (talk) 04:10, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Vassyana. I agree with your comments, in general, and believe them to be critical on Misplaced Pages. I think also, we all have our breaking points dependent on the environments we choose to place ourselves in. However, my point was not to debate you, or to question your judgment but simply to present a viewpoint. Many thanks for your time.(olive (talk) 14:54, 13 May 2008 (UTC))

Vassyana, it seems like you feel as if I was wanting to kick SA while he was down. That's not the way I saw it. Rather, I stayed silent till he was unblocked and I knew it was permanent. Then I put in all that stuff to try and explain to you what I actually have to put up with. To me, SA is not down, he is where he always is, top of the mound, able to do 10 times what would get me perm banned.

You're right: I mainly wasn't even trying to talk about the block and the situation around it- which is a minor episode and turned out the way it always does. I was trying to explain myself to you, so that you could become familiar with my view and maybe help. As far as I could see, the issue was closed already: he was staying unblocked. So, since I didn't see the issue as relevant to any action, I was just trying to explain how I see my relationship to SA and his friends.

You probably also feel I question your decision not to fight the unblock. I don't, for two reasons. First, because you'd have to wheel war, second because you don't have all the information I do, and so can't see the situation as clearly as I can. If you want to know more, send me an email. But it won't make any practical difference. I only mention it because there was no injustice to SA on my part (when I assumed he did use the socks), because I have no cause for doubt, the way you do have cause.

The general consensus among those I've contacted by email is that it would be difficult for Vassyana to believe me unless he really follows me around-- and he's not going to have the time to do that. People are funny in that they have to see things to believe them.

But one other thing: I feel that I have suffered as much injustice on WP as one can in a situation like this. I don't think that keeping quiet about injustice is the way to go. It just enables it to continue. That extends far beyond SA.

Olive is one of the editors who has been abused by SA and friends- she's seen and therefore believes.

Also, I kept quiet for a few months there about SA himself, and what happened? Nothing to slow him down. So staying silent doesn't work. You might also consider that I only said anything after all was said and done, and only on your talk page, even though I knew what was going on minutes after it happened.

If you do think you have the time to hash these things out with me, let me know. I do value blunt feedback, even if I think it takes what I was trying to accomplish and say the wrong way. I guess basically you just kind of felt like SA was the underdog there, and I don't. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 18:00, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Your input requested regarding reliable sources

Any insights you might offer to this discussion would be helpful and appreciated.  : ) --MPerel 03:48, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Limits of freedom in Userspace

Hi Vassyana, I find your statement interesting. I am currently exploring issues of "freedom in Userspace". I think your position is definately debatable. The actual circumstances may be necessary to understand your position. Could you point me at what you were talking about? Thanks. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:26, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

DanaUllman was placed under a topic ban, see here. The subject of the topic ban continued to be discussed on his user talk page here. You may find more information/opinion about the situation in the section that follows. If you have any additional questions, or any criticisms, please always feel free to drop a line here on my talk page. Cheers! Vassyana (talk) 04:28, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Vassyana, I fully support your position, if I understand it correctly. His topic ban applies to all of Misplaced Pages, including his own user space. He should just avoid the subject as long as the topic ban is active. That would even apply to questions on those topics. He must refuse to answer them. Is that correct? -- Fyslee / talk 05:41, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I would use a small bit of common sense for the occasional exception,* but generally speaking, quite right. Vassyana (talk) 05:45, 13 May 2008 (UTC) * He is a notable author in his field and a few legitimate questions are bound to fall under the topic, while not presenting any significant threat of disruption.

(Referring to your last comment....) Since he is primarily here to advocate homeopathy, any discussion by him that is not directly related to the editing of an article would be a misuse of Misplaced Pages. -- Fyslee / talk 05:51, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

If he can be productive in other areas of the wiki, I don't see how it would be particularly a problem unless it got out of hand. However, I'll leave that for other people to judge or I'll step in if it goes overboard or becomes the only on-wiki activity of the account. Vassyana (talk) 05:59, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

As long as he doesn't discuss the subjects of his topic ban, then the ban will be having an effect, one of which may be to get him to try editing other subjects if he so desires. -- Fyslee / talk 06:18, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

lectures

Hope to see you on irc in a moment :-)

--Kim Bruning (talk) 13:51, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Topic ban

Vassyana, I respect you and your history of participation on wikipedia. However, I am totally confused about your accusation of meatpuppetry. Please explain or please apologize. Please note that I have gotten mixed messages about what the meaning of my topic ban is. As you can see by this diff, Tim Vickers told me that it does not extend to user pages. Please know that my comments on my own user page were made in the good faith assumption that it was allowed. Because of your status and history with wikipedia, I assume that your message is accurate (except for the meatpuppetry part), and I will honor it. However, if you consider Tim's advice to be more accurate, please let me know. DanaUllman 00:18, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Vassyana, Please notice also this and this comments from Tim, which put the ban more on context --Enric Naval (talk) 00:52, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad that you now understand that I was acting in good faith. Despite editing in a "war zone," I have avoided edit wars (only once did I go up to 3RR...and even for that one time, some editors have criticized me), have acted in good faith to a high degree (and even been criticized for showing good faith and for asking it from others), and have often gotten consensus despite dealing with so many lividly anti-homeopathic editors. It is no wonder that a gang of anti-homeopathic editors want to mute me. As for editing on "other" topics, I have very limited time to be on wikipedia, and I prefer to edit on those areas of my special expertise. Even though some editors call this a "single purpose account," I have sought to edit a variety of articles in which homeopathy intersects, and yet, I have been criticized for doing that too (damned if I do and damnned if I don't). DanaUllman 13:21, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Haha, good misrepresentation there, Dana. You were criticized for being WP:CIVIL to avoid sanctions and not for showing good faith. Actually, you have not shown good faith many times as shown on the evidence on Homeopathy arb case. I won't even talk about getting consensus, see evidence page for that, or about the WP:COI on only editing articles where you can introduce studies that appear at books that you have written, evidence page again.

Dana, you must stop misrepresenting your behaviour. You are in a hole, stop digging it deeper. Vassyana, sorry for hijacking your talk page for this. --Enric Naval (talk) 13:57, 13 May 2008 (UTC) You know what, forget it, I'm tired of Dana using WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. He is already perfectly aware of everything I said, no point on giving him yet one more good faith advice that will be ignored. At this pace, he's going to dig his hole all the way to China and I won't care anymore --Enric Naval (talk) 14:03, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Posted on Seicer

It appears this user has deleted a page of mine claiming advertisement. This Idiot appears to have chosen to lack review and/or assistance in improving rather than stroking on things he may not know of.

I see you also had chapped him for stupidity prior to my interaction as well. Assistance in getting this page back up and revised would be nice. I was "kind" enough to eliminate the "You Idiot" but I owe no more kindness for stupidity.

This posted page (MERS) is a legimate page and should be reposted as it is the future for how mortgage and land title work is being accomplished.

Posted on his talk: MERS There you go! I do not need to have a nice tone, as I owe you nothing. You on the other hand, different story.

How can MERS page be advertisement? I do not work for them nor do I advertise for them. It is not contained in the pedia and this is an attempt to be in it. If you read it you will see what the purpose of the MERS is and not too many know of it since it is now a conglomerate method over the traditional way mortgage & land title work too place. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Paradiver (talk • contribs) 02:11, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

The original needed to be updated and I'm sure there are many who would and could do such. Shouldn't you consider adding and seeking how to improve rather than commenting on something that you may not know much about? Suggestion: get the page back on so it can be corrected! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Paradiver (talk • contribs) 02:20, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure the page you are looking for is deletion review. I would have replied on my talk page, but your hostile and rather rude message leaves more to be desired. As I am traveling and out-of-town for most of this week, I'll have little to no Internet access. And complaining to other administrators about the issue won't work here. Here is the last page revision, FTR. seicer | talk | contribs 23:16, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

It looks like a promotional fluff piece to me, strongly resembling standard corporate "information" copy. Regardless, Seicer is correct. I'm not a policy wonk, but this seems like a clearcut case and if you want to argue about the propriety of the deletion, deletion review is that way. Vassyana (talk) 04:25, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Lectures

Help Regarding WP:CON, WP:RSN

Hi Vassyana, I don't think we've crossed paths yet, but I have seen you over at WP:ANI, and thought that perhaps you would be able to help out with a content dispute, or at least tell me where to go next? There was an edit war over at Veterinary chiropractic over the inclusion of text based on a source with unknown reliability (Diffs: , , , , and perhaps more?) . To try to stop the edit war, and prevent the article from being locked due to it, I took the source over to WP:RSN . Unfortunately, there was not a lot of contribution to the thread there, and I don't think a clear consensus emerged, although there is disagreement on that point. It appears that a new edit war may start soon over the inclusion of this source. Where do I go from here? Thanks in advance, DigitalC (talk) 05:16, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually, in full disclosure, I just checked the history of Veterinary chiropractic, and it looks like I was wrong that a new edit war may start, as it has already started (although slowly).DigitalC (talk) 05:19, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

See my notices to the two main parties. If you have further questions, please ask. Vassyana (talk) 05:39, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Did you read the talk page. We already have third-party input from an external observer. QuackGuru 07:09, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I wrote on the talk page that we have a third-party opionion which explained that the article qualifies under WP:SPS. Thanks for your understanding. QuackGuru 07:25, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

The third-party opinion said it meets WP:SPS. I will respect the external observer at the WP:RSN. QuackGuru 07:36, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Levine2112 agreed to abide by the RSN passing. QuackGuru 07:44, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

The discussion was hardly unanimous and the talk page discussion does not seem to have produced an agreement. Vassyana (talk) 07:51, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

The third-party input explained the source qualifies under Misplaced Pages's standard but the source and text was deleted against the advise of the RSN external input. QuackGuru 07:57, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Other responses objected to the use of that particular source. Some responses commented that rewording, or a better summary, per the source may be appropriate. Please stop misusing the RSN thread. Stop ignoring the need for consensus and the prohibition on edit warring. I will not continue to debate this particular situation with you. You are well aware of what is expected of editors. Vassyana (talk) 08:02, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Block Review

Hi Vassyana: This block strikes me as excessively long given the rationale provided, which I think is based on an unfair exposition of the facts, a profound misreading of events and represents the successful gaming of good faith admins. What is the best venue for remonstration and redress on this issue? Thanks! Eusebeus (talk) 14:58, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

overshort if anything. A person who intend to test the limits as long as we let him. Speaking of gaming.... DGG (talk) 17:33, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Feel free to post to AN/I to ask for a review of my actions. However, escalating lengths of blocks, especially when blocked for the same reason (ArbCom enforcement) is fairly standard. TTN blatantly violated his ArbCom restrictions. I don't see how my block was at all questionable or excessive. Vassyana (talk) 19:43, 13 May 2008 (UTC)