Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 18:20, 15 May 2008

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Singapore Airlines article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2, 3Auto-archiving period: 30 days

Singapore Airlines was nominated as a good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (April 18, 2008). There are suggestions below for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated.

	Singapore Airlines was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones Date Process Result October 7, 2006 Good article nominee Not listed

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Aviation: Airlines This article is within the scope of the Aviation WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see lists of open tasks and task forces. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.AviationWikipedia:WikiProject AviationTemplate:WikiProject Aviationaviation This article has not yet been checked against the criteria for B-class status: Referencing and citation: not checked Coverage and accuracy: not checked Structure: not checked Grammar and style: not checked Supporting materials: not checked To fill out this checklist, please add the following code to the template call: | b1<!--Referencing and citation--> = <yes/no> | b2<!--Coverage and accuracy   --> = <yes/no> | b3<!--Structure               --> = <yes/no> | b4<!--Grammar and style       --> = <yes/no> | b5<!--Supporting materials    --> = <yes/no> assessing the article against each criterion. This article is supported by the airline project. This article is a candidate to be the Collaboration of the Month. Template:SGPlease add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Companies Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Companies, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of companies on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CompaniesWikipedia:WikiProject CompaniesTemplate:WikiProject Companiescompany Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. WikiProject Companies To-do: Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Article requests : Misplaced Pages:Requested articles/Business and economics/Companies Assess : Category:Unassessed company articles Copyedit : Category:Company articles needing attention Infobox : Category:Company articles needing infoboxes Maintain : Portal:Companies Stubs : Help expand stub articles located at Category:Company stubs Other : Tag company articles with the {{portal|Companies}} template Tag company talk pages with the {{WikiProject Companies}} project banner Answer requests for comments

To-do list for Singapore Airlines: edit · history · watch · refresh · Updated 2010-11-05 Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Article requests : Misplaced Pages:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-01-07 Singapore Airlines#Request for Comment: Reasons For/Against Request for comment. Add image of a frontal view of the SIA headquarters, Airline House, by Changi Airport (May only be possible for airline PR department to accomplish this). Find additional suitable images.New images uploaded to the Commons. Cleanup : Rewrite whole article, remove weasel words, cite sources for certain sections such as Awards, controversies, new events, new plane orders, edit directory of flight numbers, advertisement-like language. Copyedit : Shorten lead-in. Shortened. Events section needs to be incorporated into the main body of text. Expand : Infobox needs to be updated. Needs for some historical controversies to be added into the article e.g. SIA pilots incident in the 1980s. Also, some of the non-SQ6 lawsuits to be added into the article. A brief mention on SQ6 and the lawsuits in "Controversy" section. Expand on the fleet, interior of the fleet and older history. Content to use old Straits Times newspapers, SilverKris as well as foreign news material. Merge : The section on "Preparations for the A380" can be moved into the article Singapore Changi Airport. Much of the "Fleet" section can be merged into the article Singapore Airlines fleet. The "Events" section needs to be merged into the rest of the article text or removed. "Cabin" section needs to be merged into the "Inflight Service" section. It might be possible to refer some of the material on the corporate structure to Singapore Airlines Group which currently redirects to this article. NPOV : Clean up anything that makes the article sound like an advert. Update : A380 status, recent events of SIA. Verify : Find reliable sources for the article text. Find sources for {{cn}} or remove the statements alltogether. Other : After significant improvements have been made: GA-nomination, peer-review and FA-nomination.

Archives

1 2 3 4 5

Focus Cities

Did someone just randomly pick destinations and decide to call them focus cities!? I mean seriously, Amsterdam, they don't even fly there daily!? 210.9.142.8 (talk) 11:34, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Sure looks like it ("Kula Lumpur" and all). I've deleted the lot until somebody can come up with a source. Jpatokal (talk) 13:07, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I concured with the move. Seems like they did just spin a globe and point at focus cities. --DavidD4scnrt (talk) 06:49, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

RfC: Flight Numbers and Codeshare Agreements

Unfortunately Wiki Bureaucracy dictates we go for this token discussion of the repeting of views before we go anywhere else.

Parent company....here we go again.

Not having noticed that the parent company has been removed from the infobox for quite some time now by the looks of it, I have placed it back, and surprise, surprise, Huaiwei has yet again reverted it. This issue has gone on now since at least August 2007, and it has been an absolute headache. This is the very last time that I will be addressing this issue, as it is difficult to continue to assume good faith when an editor claims that a reliable source is not a reliable source, claims that information is not verifiable when it is, demands that I explain every word of every edit, which is reverted without question, and without the courtesy of responding to questions asked of him, making it appear to me that he is making a point that he has a certain right above every other editor to have certain controls over content, or perhaps one is just being inconsiderate. But hey, even though I am admittedly guilty of being uncivil to Huaiwei on a few occasions in the past, and I will admit that I do not believe Huaiwei has acted in good faith in regards to this issue, I will assume good faith one last time, and I will explain every word, even though just as Misplaced Pages is not a textbook, and is not meant to teach subject matter, I should not be expected to play professor and educate.

Parent companies are an integral part of the business world, and as this article is also under the scope of Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Companies, and of course WP:FIVE, the parent company which is verifiable and which comes from a reliable source should not be removed without concensus, as I see no reason why Singapore Airlines is so special that this info is not included in this article, yet can potentially be included in every other company article on WP. With the growing interest in Government-linked companies and the use of Sovereign wealth funds by governments, this information is all the more important, and there is much obfuscation by these GLC's in not disclosing their holdings, just look at Temasek Holdings as a prime example, publishing an annual report for the first time in 2004, yet it still only reports on the major investments it holds, no-one knows for sure just how many companies it actually owns and has investments in.

In August 2007, when Temasek Holdings was placed as the sourced and referenced parent company, Huaiwei reverted it, with the commentThe IHT is not an authority in deciding for SIA who its parent company is. Kindly find any source in (of course, IHT is in reference to the International Herald Tribune, a respectable and reliable source). I am willing to go out on a limb here, but Huaiwei is not an authority in deciding that the IHT is not a reliable source with a .) Reverting and tons of original research occurred by Huaiwei after this. In the last few days, I have re-added Temasek this time being sourced to Forbes, and surprise, surprise, Huaiwei reverts it, this time stating, The only reliable source on a company's structure is obviously the company's own publications. And they simply do not show such a relationship. Again, Huaiwei is claiming that Forbes is not a reliable source with a . But alas, Huaiwei, the company's own publications do show such a relationship, that's the beauty of being listed on a stock exchange, they are required to, and that information was provided back in August last year, and you reverted it, claiming it did not show that relationship. If only looked at what has been written previously on this very talk page, unfortunately, another user has deleted it, but here it is. Mind you, what you are suggesting is that we write the entire article using only sources provided via Singapore Airlines, and that is squarely outright against the verifiability policy. Given that Huaiwei does not believe that a source which states that Temasek is the parent company of Singapore Airlines is not a reliable source, I hereby am providing a list of further sources which state that very fact, and will provide some further info on certain sources, and perhaps Huaiwei can then provide a reason as to why each and every single one of these sources is not reliable, and then they can be discussed by the entire project as to their reliability, and whether any of them should be used for providing verifiable information, remembering of course, that many of these sources are used on this very article? (Of course, they are reliable due to them extensively being used throughout Misplaced Pages, and due to them more than fulfilling requirements). Or perhaps, Huaiwei can stop reverting referenced, reliable, verifiable information, based upon purely belief that reliable sources are not reliable.

• International Herald Tribune - article - quote from article - Singapore Airlines and its parent Temasek signed a definite agreement to buy a 24 percent stake in China Eastern Airlines to add flights in the second-largest aviation market in the world. NOTE The IHT is being used in this article for the following citations SIA was shut out from the Toronto market after complaints from Air Canada of losing market share to SIA, and was forced to stop flying Boeing 747-400s into Jakarta in the wake of protests from Garuda Indonesia when it could not use similar equipment to compete, It similarly faced constant opposition from Qantas to allow it full aviation rights out of Australia, in particular to the United States, The cancellation was seen as particularly damaging to McDonnell Douglas due to the company's reputation, The A340-300 had been a replacement for a cancelled McDonnell Douglas MD-11 order, which could not meet long-range requirements as far as distance was concerned.
• Forbes - article - quote from article - For a price tag of 7.2 billion Hong Kong dollars ($923 million), Singapore Airlines (other-otc: SGPJF - news - people ), renowned as the best-managed airline in Asia, and its Singaporean government-controlled parent Temasek Holdings, are taking a combined 24% stake in money-losing China Eastern Airlines, China's perpetual aviation laggard. NOTE The example article, unbelievably, is not reliable to use to include Temasek as the parent company, yet it is reliable to use to cite this from the WP article: The deal, worth 7.2 billion Hong Kong Dollars, would have involved SIA buying 1.24 billion shares at 3.80 Hong Kong dollars a share and caused a major rally in China Eastern Airline's shares, which rose 83.91% to reach 6.86 Hong Kong dollars one day after the announcement of the deal
• Bloomberg L.P. - article - quote from article - Singapore Airlines Ltd. and parent Temasek Holdings Pte may pay about $930 million for a stake in China Eastern Airlines Corp. to expand the carrier's reach in the world's most populous nation, people involved in the talks said.
• Reuters - article - quote from article - Shareholders of China Eastern Airlines (0670.HK: Quote, Profile, Research) rejected on Tuesday a deal to sell a 24 percent stake to Singapore Airlines (SIAL.SI: Quote, Profile, Research) and its parent Temasek Holdings TEM.UL for US$920 million.
• Financial Times - article - quote from article - if CEA's minority shareholders reject a proposed HK$7.16bn (US$917m) investment by Singapore Airlines and its parent Temasek at a shareholder meeting on Tuesday.
• MarketWatch (owned by Dow Jones) - article - quote from article - Shares of Singapore Airlines Ltd. traded little changed Wednesday, a day after minority shareholders of China Eastern Airlines (CEA) blocked a bid that would have seen the Singaporean carrier and its state-owned parent Temasek Holdings take a 24% stake for HK$7.1 billion ($918 million).
• The Australian - article - quote from article - Air China blocked a deal this year whereby Singapore Airlines and its parent, Temasek Holdings, would buy a 24 per cent stake in China Eastern.
• Asia Times Online - article - quote from article - China Daily reported this Wednesday that Singapore Airlines and parent Temasek Holdings may pay about US$930 million for a combined stake of about 24% in China Eastern Airlines to expand the Southeast Asian carrier's reach in China.
• Shanghai Daily - article - quote from article - Singapore Airlines Ltd and its parent Temasek Holdings Pte signed an agreement last month to buy 24 percent of China Eastern Airlines Corp at HK$3.80 a share.
• The Daily Telegraph - article - quote from article - Hong Kong-based Cathay had drawn up plans - revealed by telegraph.co.uk on Friday - to buy a minority stake in China Eastern Airlines Corporation, potentially trumping a previously-agreed deal between China Eastern and Singapore Airlines and its parent, Temasek Holdings.
• Fairfax Media - article - quote from article - The companies announced in September that Singapore Airlines and its parent Temasek would pay $US918 million ($NZ1.21 billion) for a combined 24 per cent stake in China Eastern
• Air Transport World - article - quote from article - China Eastern Airlines continues to press on in its effort to reach a deal with Singapore Airlines and plans to cooperate with SIA parent Temasek to fashion terms that will be acceptable to minority shareholders, who vetoed the sale of a 24% stake last month.
• The Honolulu Advertiser - article - quote from article - Singapore Airlines and parent Temasek Holdings Pte agreed to buy a 24 percent stake in China Eastern for about $918 million last month.
• USA Today - article - quote from article - This could mean the government reducing its majority control of SIA as it allows more carriers to be based at Changi and builds a terminal for low-cost airlines to further cement its air-hub position, analysts said. (the operative word here being control)
• The Standard - article - quote from article - Shares in China Eastern Airlines (0670) soared 75.1 percent to close at a record HK$6.53, the day after the carrier announced Singapore Airlines and its parent, Temasek Holdings, have agreed to invest US$918 million (HK$7.16 billion) for a combined 24 percent stake in the mainland carrier.
• Channel NewsAsia - article - quote from article - Established in 1974 by the government, Temasek controls some of Asia's best-known companies including Singapore Airlines and Singapore Telecommunications. (the operative word here being control)
• China Daily - article - quote from article - Singapore Airlines and parent Temasek Holdings Pte plan to buy about 25 percent of China Eastern, Li Fenghua, the Chinese carrier's chairman, said at a shareholders' meeting in Shanghai today.
• People's Daily - article - quote from article - Singapore Airlines and parent Temasek Holdings Pte are seeking to buy 24 percent of China Eastern to expand in China's growing aviation market.
• Centre for Asia Pacific Aviation - article - quote from article - The rejection of a plan to sell 24 pct of China Eastern Airlines to Singapore Airlines and its Singapore government parent Temasek will delay the Chinese carrier's development
• China Central Television - article - quote from article - Singapore Airlines and its parent, Temasek, offered 3.8 Hong Kong dollars a share for a 24 percent stake in China Eastern.
• Hong Kong Trade Development Council - article - quote from article - SINGAPORE Airlines Ltd. and parent Temasek Holdings Pte have agreed to pay about US$918 million for a 24 percent stake in China Eastern Airlines Corp., as economic growth boosts air travel in China.
• Xinhua Financial Network - article - quote from article - The rejection of a plan to sell 24 pct of China Eastern Airlines to Singapore Airlines and its Singapore government parent Temasek will delay the Chinese carrier's development, China Eastern president Li Fenghua said.
• The Economic Times - article - quote from article - Singapore Airlines and its parent Temasek Holdings had made a persistent bid to buy a 24 per cent stake in CEA for 3.80 Hong Kong dollar per share.
• The Straits Times - - quote from article - Leading the charge is the Singapore government investment arm Temasek Holdings, which owns Changi Airport and a controlling stake in Singapore Airlines.
• The Star - article - quote from article - Singapore Air, the world's second biggest airline by stock market value, saw its bid to increase exposure to the booming China market suffer a setback after shareholders of China Eastern last month rejected a deal to sell 24% of the firm for US$920mil to Singapore Air and its parent Temasek.
• BusinessWeek - article - quote from article - And in September, Temasek scored an mergers and acquisitions victory when the fund teamed up with its subsidiary Singapore Airlines to take a 24% stake in China Eastern Airlines, acing out Hong Kong's Cathay Pacific.
• The Age - article - Singapore Airlines and its parent, state investment company Temasek Holdings, are in talks to buy a 24 per cent stake in China Eastern Airlines.
• Thomson Financial - article - quote from article - Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd is preparing a statement to respond to reports that it is seeking to invest in China Eastern Airlines Corp, a move that could possibly thwart a bid from Singapore Airlines and parent Temasek Holdings Pte Ltd to buy a stake in China's third largest carrier.
• London Stock Exchange - article - quote from article - Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd is preparing a statement to respond to reports that it is seeking to invest in China Eastern Airlines Corp, a move that could possibly thwart a bid from Singapore Airlines and parent Temasek Holdings Pte Ltd to buy a stake in China's third largest carrier.
• Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania - article - quote from article - It was a perfect deal and it had approval from the top levels of Chinese government. Singapore Airlines (SIA) and its parent company, Temasek, were set to purchase a 24% stake in Shanghai-based China Eastern Airlines.
• Associated Press - article - quote from article - Singapore Airlines and its parent, the Singapore government investment agency Temasek Holdings Ltd., offered $923.8 million (7.2 billion Hong Kong dollars or about HK$3.80 per share), for the 24 percent stake.
• Singapore Business Review - article - quote from article - Last year, Singapore Airlines and parent Temasek Holdings offered to buy 24% of China Eastern Airlines at a price of HK$3.8 per share, totalling HK$7.16 billion in order to expand their businesses in China's booming aviation market.
• The New York Times - article - quote from article - The companies in its stable represent at least one-fifth of Singapore's market capitalization and it has controlling stakes in Singapore Airlines and Singapore Telecommunications.
• Payload Asia - article - quote from article - SIA and parent Temasek recently signed a definitive agreement to buy 15.7 and 8.3 per cent stakes respectively in CEA, with the Singapore carrier pledging significant cooperation with the Shanghai-based carrier.
• The Boston Globe - article - quote from article - The statement by the Hong Kong-based carrier increases the probability that China Eastern shareholders will reject an offer for a 24 percent stake by Singapore Airlines and its parent, the government investment agency Temasek Holdings Ltd,. when they meet Tuesday in Shanghai.
• World Trade Organization - article (word document) quote from article - Singapore Airlines (SIA) is Singapore's national carrier and a publicly listed company. It is majority owned (56.76%) by the Government through its holding company, Temasek.
• Cargonews Asia - article - quote from article - Singapore Airlines and parent Temasek Holdings' bid of HK$3.8 per share for 24 percent of China Eastern was blocked by minority shareholders late last year after comments by Air China that the offer price was too low.
• The Wall Street Journal - article - quote from article - By launching its offer, CNAHC had scuttled an earlier deal that would have given Singapore Airlines Ltd. and its parent company, Temasek Holdings Pte. Ltd., a 24% share in China Eastern.
• Today - article - quote from article - Not because his ambitious target - Shanghai-based China Eastern Airlines (CEA), the third largest carrier in the world's fastest-growing, but still highly regulated, economy - spurned the HK$7.2-billion ($1.3-billion) advances of SIA and parent Temasek Holdings.
• The Sydney Morning Herald - article - quote from article - Temasek owns many of Singapore's largest companies, such as Optus-owner SingTel, Singapore Airlines and Singapore Power.
• World Bank - article (PDF format) - quote from article - In Singapore, Temasek-the national holding company-has a $90 billion portfolio with shares in over 20 major SOEs, including such well-known multinationals as SingTel, Singapore Airlines, and Raffles.
• Asiaweek - article - quote from article - Affected companies contacted by asiaweek, including Temasek Holdings, the Singapore government investment arm that controls SIA, SingTel and DBS, declined to comment on any share price implications.
• Businessworld - article - quote from article - Singapore Airlines' parent company Temasek and a group of other investors are launching a low-cost airline called Tiger Airways.
• Condé Nast Portfolio - article - quote from article - Singapore Airlines and its parent, the Singapore government investment agency Temasek Holdings Ltd., offered $923.8 million (7.2 billion Hong Kong dollars or about HK$3.80 per share), for the 24 percent stake.
• Daily Times - article - quote from article - Singapore Airlines: Singapore Airlines and its parent Temasek Holdings Pte agreed to buy a 24 percent stake in China Eastern on Sept. 2 for HK$7.16 billion ($917 million), after more than a year of talks.
• Air Transport World - article - quote from article - Separately, SIA and parent Temasek said they signed a definitive agreement to buy 15.73% and 8.27% stakes respectively in China Eastern Airlines for a combined HK$7.2 billion ($927 million).
• Fortune - article - quote from article - But that makes its choice of partner odd, as Temasek also owns Singapore Airlines, which in turn owns both low-cost regional feeder airline Silk Air and Tiger.
• CNN - article - quote from article - China National Aviation Holding, which owns 12.07 percent in the Shanghai-based carrier, said in a statement Tuesday that the HK$3.80 per share offer by Singapore Airlines and its parent, government investment arm Temasek Holdings, did not "reflect the fair value of China Eastern."
• Asian Development Bank - article - quote from article - With few exceptions, the airline industry in developing Asia is dominated by state-owned enterprises. Although one such carrier, Singapore Airlines, has consistently been ranked as one of the world's best and most efficient, the record of state ownership in other airlines is poor.
• The Edge - article - quote from article - The Singapore government, which controls flag carrier Singapore Airlines Ltd, also has equity in two budget airlines. Its state investment agency, Temasek Holdings, holds 19% of Qantas Airways Ltd.'s JetStar Asia and 11% of Tiger Airways, set up with the founder of Irish discount carrier Ryanair.
• Aviation Week & Space Technology - article - quote from article - Tiger's main owners are Singapore Airlines and that company's state parent, Temasek Holdings.
• Shenzhen Daily - article - quote from article - TEMASEK Holdings Pte., a Singapore state-owned investment company with US$85 billion in assets, may join its unit Singapore Airlines Ltd. to bid for a stake in China Eastern Airlines Corp., Morgan Stanley said.
• JLM Pacific Epoch - article - quote from article - Air China Ltd's (601111.SH; 0753.HK) parent company China National Aviation Holdings Company, will vote against China Eastern Airlines Corporation Ltd's (600115.SH; 0670.HK; NYSE:CEA) proposed deal with Singapore Airlines Ltd (SIA) and its parent company Temasek Holdings at CEA's shareholder meeting scheduled for January 8, 2008, reports the Beijing News quoting Air China vice president Fan Cheng.
• Xinhua News Agency - article - quote from article - The document sets out the framework for a cooperative partnership in conjunction with a proposed strategic investment in CEA by SIA and Temasek, which owns 54.8 percent of SIA.
• ASEAN-Australia Development Cooperation Programme - Regional Economic Policy Support Facility (an initiative of AusAID in support of ASEAN) - article - quote from article - Governments' controls in other ASEAN airlines are still significant despite the various privatisation initiatives. For example, Singapore, despite being seen as having more foreign investor-friendly investment rules in place, sees the Singapore Airlines (SIA) being owned as much as 57% by the state investment holding company, Temasek Holdings.
• Four Corners of the ABC - article - quote from article - It seems all flight paths lead to Singapore Inc. Brierley is now a Singapore company with 7 per cent owned by, yes, the Singapore government through a company called Temasek. And that's not the only coincidence. As well as its shareholdings, which weave a path through New Zealand to Ansett, the state-owned Singapore Airlines has 49 per cent of Richard Branson's Virgin Atlantic. It turns out that Richard Branson has very close connections with Singapore.
• AsiaOne - article - quote from article - Temasek controls some of Asia's best-known companies including Singapore Airlines, Chartered Semiconductor, Neptune Orient Lines, port operator PSA International and Singapore Telecommunications.
• Gulf Times - article - quote from article - China Eastern Airlines nearly doubled in value to a record after Singapore Airlines and its parent Temasek agreed to buy a combined 24% stake in the Chinese airline for US$918mn and Singapore Airlines shares climbed 1.6%.
• The Guardian - article - quote from article - With a portfolio of more than 160bn Singapore dollars (£55bn), Temasek is among Asia's wealthiest sovereign funds. It controls Singapore Airlines and Singapore Telecoms, owns a 13% stake in Standard Chartered Bank and bought 2% of Barclays earlier this year.
• BBC - article - quote from article - The state-controlled carrier earned 868 million Singapore dollars ($553m; £293m) between March and September.
• Flight International - article - quote from article - Singapore Airlines and China Eastern Airlines were due to unveil a deal on 2 September in which SIA and its parent, Temasek Holdings, are to jointly buy a 25% stake in China Eastern.
• Mint a newspaper from HT Media Ltd. Sister publication to Hindustan Times. Partner of The Wall Street Journal. Article using content syndicated from Agence France-Presse - article - quote from article - Temasek controls some of Asia's best-known companies including Singapore Airlines, Chartered Semiconductor, Neptune Orient Lines, port operator PSA International and Singapore Telecommunications.
• The Independent - article - quote from article - Singapore Airlines will hold 49 per cent while its parent company, the Singapore state investment agency Temasek Holdings, will own a further 11 per cent.
• Ministry of Commerce of the People's Republic of China - article - quote from article - According to the plan, Singapore Airlines will buy 20 percent of the stake while its parent company Temasek, a Singapore State-owned investment company, will buy 5 percent. The total of 25 percent is the maximum allowed by Chinese law.
• International Enterprise Singapore, agency of the Singapore Ministry of Trade and Industry, utilising a newsfeed from The Business Times - article - quote from article - Ironically, the one venture where it seems to be doing reasonably well is its China-based Great Wall Airlines freighter airline business, where it has a 25 per cent stake, while its parent Temasek has 24 per cent.
• SIA Engineering Company - annual report (PDF 4.0mb) - quote from Page 94 - SIA Engineering Company Limited (the "Company") is a limited liability company incorporated in the Republic of Singapore, which is also the place of domicile. The Company is a subsidiary company of Singapore Airlines Limited and its ultimate holding company is Temasek Holdings (Private) Limited, both incorporated in the Republic of Singapore.
• Singapore Airlines - annual report (PDF 6.0mb) - quote from page 80 - Singapore Airlines Limited ("the Company") is a limited liability company incorporated in the Republic of Singapore which is also the place of domicile. The Company is a subsidiary company of Temasek Holdings (Private) Limited, incorporated in the Republic of Singapore. NOTE This exact source has been referenced by myself in this article on many occasions, and Huaiwei dismisses it, because he does not believe it says what it says. And now he still wants a company source? And it is his continual rejection of this source which has caused me such a headache, particularly, as he has taken it upon himself to use this source to claim things such as, Temasek is the parent company of the Singapore Airlines Group, something of course which it is not, and of course when I have told him this is not verifiable, it is dismissed by him. Additionally, referring to this change from today, which references page 80 as mentioned just above, it clearly states Singapore Airlines is a subsidiary of Temasek, yet this is reverted to saying that Temasek is a simply a major shareholder. I hope this will not be the case, yet again. Looks like I spoke too soon. Of course, Huaiwei can always tells us exactly what this statement means: Singapore Airlines Limited ("the Company") is a limited liability company incorporated in the Republic of Singapore which is also the place of domicile. The Company is a subsidiary company of Temasek Holdings (Private) Limited, incorporated in the Republic of Singapore. --Россавиа 20:48, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

The above lengthy post makes zero mention, nor demonstrates any real intent in resolving past disputes which has been left hanging, including but not confined to these: , , , , . Russavia has shown an inability to remain consistent in even defining the entity "Singapore Airlines" in this article, choosing to take differing opinions just to ram through his personal POV, in particular his "concern" of Singapore Airline's reputation as a quality airline, and now, his agenda in pushing through greater emphasis on the actual role of Temasek Holdings and its shareholdings in various companies, including that of Singapore Airlines. Without any new information to support this stand, I fail to see any reason to shift away from the status quo, which is to outright delete the contested field until a reasonable compromise may be found. And that status quo has remained for several months until Russavia decides to reignite it again. Numerous news articles will simply not hold in this regard. I have seen numerous articles, most of whom simply copies from one another, calling Singapore Airlines a "parent company" of Tiger Airways:. Do you plan to be consistent and enforce that relationship as well?--Huaiwei (talk) 09:20, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with the airline and everything to do with your personal squabble. Take it to Misplaced Pages:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2008-02-22 Singapore Airlines, please. Jpatokal (talk) 09:37, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Whether this is a personality or content dispute is not for you to judge, Jpatokal. Kindly do not capitalise on each and every dispute to your advantage and respect the views of each party concerned.--Huaiwei (talk) 12:43, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't give a flying fillip about which one of you is "right". You're both acting like kindergarteners and, seeing that you've both agreed to participate in Misplaced Pages:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2008-02-22 Singapore Airlines (which is about you two and this very article), you should sort this out there instead of edit warring here. Jpatokal (talk) 18:45, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

And that jolly well should be so, because you are in no position to judge either party. You are similarly in no position to call anyone names, not talk to anyone in a condescending manner, just because they have been involved in a dispute you could care less about. Even banned users deserve better treatment, so kindly avoid attempting to repeatedly aggravate the situation with needless comments.--Huaiwei (talk) 21:04, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

First off, I have always stated that this article is about the company, which happens to be an airline, and I challenge anyone to show anyone any different. Out of all the above, when it is CLEARLY stated in the Singapore Airlines Annual Report (remember you are the one who insisted back in August that you want a company source, which of course you duly ignored, and then proceeded to use to engage in original research), what do these 2 sentences mean to you?

Singapore Airlines Limited ("the Company") is a limited liability company incorporated in the Republic of Singapore which is also the place of domicile. The Company is a subsidiary company of Temasek Holdings (Private) Limited, incorporated in the Republic of Singapore.

What does being a subsidiary actually mean? It can mean only ONE thing. If CompanyA is a subsidiary of CompanyB, then CompanyB is the parent company of CompanyA.

In regards to Tiger, take it up on that article when the need arises, but I for one would never include Tiger as being a subsidiary of Singapore Airlines, due to the sheer number of sources which do make this clear distinction, but it is very fair to state that Tiger Airways is a state-controlled airline due to its ownership of Temasek, and its control of Singapore Airlines, the Singapore government does have control over Tiger.

Now, bringing it back to SIA, and still related to Tiger somewhat, if the government chooses to exercise that control or not is irrelevant, it is still a state-controlled airline. In the case of SIA, with each ordinary share of SIA carrying one vote, and with Temasek owning 54.47% of these share (and of course with the Minister of Finance holding a golden share), Singapore Airlines is controlled by (by legal definition) Temasek Holdings, and Temasek Holdings is the parent company (by legal definition) of Singapore Airlines.

Additionally, this is made all the more interesting by SingTel, which the other day I updated to show as Temasek being the parent company, and which you reverted again citing that news sources are wrong. But then straight away, you have basically reverted your own revert and included a source from Temasek (albeit quite a contentious source considering its content). So in that instance, I used a reliable, verifiable source which you reverted, and then added back the information using a self-published source. Your questioning of the reliability of sources claiming that they are not reliable has a dark cloud over it right about now due to that article. Yet, on this article, you already have discounted a self-published source, and for what reason I have no idea. Does the inclusion of Temasek, mean we will have a category of Category:Government-controlled companies with Singapore Airlines prominently placed there? Not a priority for me, but its a possibility (however, truth be known, I am working on a Temasek in-article template at the moment, due to much increased spotlight on governmet linked companies and the use of sovereign wealth funds ). I have to question your motives here Huaiwei. I will be upfront about mine, to present the correct information without allowing advertorial PR to obfuscate and keep to NPOV - whilst it is true that Temasek is the majority shareholder, this does not in itself portray the reality in that it is the parent company, a piece of fact acknowledged by Singapore Airlines itself. --Россавиа 10:16, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

And on a related note, due to Huaiwei refusing the recognise that Forbes and the IHT, two notable and reputable financial media companies, are reliable sources, I posted this on the reliable sources noticeboard, and the concensus there is, is that yes Forbes and the IHT are reliable sources, and perhaps in relation to the links regarding Tiger but not relevant to the discussion at hand here, that if incorrect information has been printed, then it is up to the company to request a correction. --Россавиа 10:24, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

You sound extremely sour over my comment that Forbes and the IHT are inferior in reliability when compared to official publications by Singapore Airlines, Russavia, to the point of now misquoting me of actualy dismissing both publications entirely on all aspects, despite me never stating such a viewpoint. Thank you, Russavia, for once again demonstrating your rampant habit of misrepresenting and exaggerating the comments and viewpoints of your "editorial foes" in a bid to discredit them during the heat of a dispute.--Huaiwei (talk) 12:53, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

If everything was this clear-cut, Russavia, why was this issue not resolved many many moons ago? Why did you fail to convince even a nuetral party like Vegaswikian, who clearly also has doubts?

• Kindly state clearly whether this article is about Singapore Airlines the parent airline, or Singapore Airlines Limited and its group of companies, and tweak the entire article accordingly. You have insisted on presenting Singapore Airlines as a subsidiary of Temasek Holdings, which will only be true if we are talking about the group of companies under the SIA umbrella (hence "Singapore Airlines Limited ("the Company")" as stated quite clearly in the annual report, and not just the "parent airline" alone). Yet when the article is then modified to reflect this group of companies, you insist on reverting them back to Singapore Airlines the parent airline minus all its constituent parts. You can write an entire essay on your viewpoints, but if you cannot substaintiate them with simple logic and display consistency in applying them, is it anyone's fault that your POV continue to be removed (and not just by me alone)?
• Even if we are to put aside the scope of this article, you ask for a check on definitions to bolster your point. Well, "Parent company", as that subsection in Holding company says, is a "holding company that owns enough voting stock in another firm (subsidiary) to control management and operations by influencing or electing its board of directors." Are you even in possession of a single verifiable source demonstrating Temasek Holdings actually exercising "management and operation control" over Singapore Airlines or any of the companies it has a majority stake in? The choice of terms used demonstrates a particular POV. The Australian media, for example, are prone to happily call Temasek a "parent company" of SQ especially during the hype of SQ's clashes with Qantas when the later called SQ a "government-subsidised company" when no such proof exists. The Singapore media (and a few other sources including those you cite above), on the other hand, tend to refer to Temasek simply as a "majority shareholder", without implying further relationship of any kind. Is this attempting to give undue weight to advance your POV?
• I find it of particular concern that you consider highlighting Temasek's roles in its subsidiaries a urgent need in response to recent hype over sovereign funds, and that you take issue with Temasek's lack of disclosure. And here you are calling others attempting to suck up to state PR mechanisms, as thou you represent greater NPOV values? Your recent additions to this article attempting to portray Singapore Airlines negatively has proven once again your inability to write with adequate balance and good unbiased research:. Your views on Singapore-related matters, be it on Singapore Airlines, on Temasek Holdings, on Singapore's hotels, etc, etc, continue to be a major source of concern for several SGnb members, and I would continue to challenge you on your believe that you hold greater nuetrality in view compared to those members.--Huaiwei (talk) 12:13, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

According to Temasek, it is a 55% shareholder of Singapore Airlines, (and has held a controlling stake since 1974 1975.) That seems to make it a parent-subsidiary relationship, as the SIA annual report says. There seems to be only one editor disputing this, but it seems to be one of the best sourced facts in Misplaced Pages. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 14:37, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I am going to say that, yes, tamasek is the parent of SIA as both tamasek and SIA say so. Bonewah (talk) 05:13, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Both of you have failed to address the issues brought up above. Are you refering to SIA the group of companies or SIA the parent airline?--Huaiwei (talk) 18:18, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

As you bring it up, I will ask you directly, since clearly none of us get it: How does 'SIA the group of companies' differ from 'SIA the parent airline'? --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 21:57, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't. Singapore Airlines Limited (trading as Singapore Airlines) is the same entity at the Singapore Airlines Group of Companies; the Group of Companies monicker is used mainly in financial circles, so that it is possible to break up the company into the company and subsidiaries for purposes of financial reporting (e.g. reporting profitability of the company as an entity as a whole, or broken down into constituent companies). I suggest also looking at Misplaced Pages:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2008-02-22_Singapore_Airlines, as this issue is also covered there, in particular, Huaiwei states = But on hindsight, if Singapore Airlines = Singapore Airlines Limited = Singapore Airlines Group, which this not cause even greater confusion when they are actually the same entity (in the most basic sense minus the technicalities)? Now there will be an attempty by Huaiwei to obfuscate even more, but I say this.....

• The IATA code SQ belongs to Singapore Airlines Limited
• The aircraft in its fleet are registered to Singapore Airlines Limited (the Singapore CAA says so)
• Huaiwei has no problem on SilkAir and Singapore Airlines Cargo with Singapore Airlines Limited being the parent company
• The Singapore Stock Exchange doesn't have a listing for Singapore Airlines Group of Companies, but it does for Singapore Airlines Limited
• IATA doesn't have a member called Singapore Airlines Group of Companies, but it does have a member called Singapore Airlines Limited
• I can find no entity registered in Singapore called Singapore Airlines Group of Companies, but can find Singapore Airlines Limited
• I can find no reference in any bilateral service agreements mentioning Singapore Airlines Group of Companies, but can find Singapore Airlines Limited
• All sources regarding the China Eastern Airlines stake don't make any mention of Singapore Airlines Group of Companies taking a stake in that airline, but Singapore Airlines Limited (and its parent company Temasek Holdings)....refer to the long list of sources above, one of which is used as a reliable source in this article for info on that stakeholding, which apparently is not reliable enough to source Temasek as being the parent of Singapore Airlines
• Other Temasek controlled entity articles have Temasek Holdings as the parent where verified, e.g. SingTel, which can also be called SingTel Group of Companies.
• The list goes on, this article is about an airline which happens to be a company (as required by law) --Россавиа 16:37, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Subsidiary --> Parent --> Subsidiary?_Parent_-->_Subsidiary?-2008-04-30T04:43:00.000Z">

So after reading the above exchanges, it would appear that Huaiwei and Russavia have a personal conflict, and Huaiwei is fighting tooth and nail to avoid having to call Temasek a "Parent Company." After many struggles, the substantive question remaining is not what is posed above, because Huaiwei appears to have (after much struggle) acknowledged that Temasek is a majority shareholder of Singapore Airlines. The only remaining quabble is whether the corporate "Majority shareholder" of 55% of SA's stock is therefore SA's "parent company." Huaiwei appears to appoint a close managerial connotation to the words "parent company," which may or may not exist in Wikipedian English.

So the question remains: Does a longtime "Majority Shareholder" which is a limited liability corporation necessarily mean a "Parent Company"?69.140.102.62 (talk) 04:43, 30 April 2008 (UTC)_Parent_-->_Subsidiary?"> _Parent_-->_Subsidiary?">

Unfortunately, there is a conflict, and it is directly related to this issue which has been ongoing now for almost a year. Verified information has continually been removed by said editor. As to the question you have raised, if the laws of the country stipulate conditions which are met for a company being the parent of another, then yes, it is a parent company. Particularly, when the subsidiary company acknowledges it is a subsidiary of the parent company with:

Singapore Airlines Limited ("the Company") is a limited liability company incorporated in the Republic of Singapore which is also the place of domicile. The Company is a subsidiary company of Temasek Holdings (Private) Limited, incorporated in the Republic of Singapore.

Taken from Page 80 of the 2006-07 Singapore Airlines Annual Report which can be found at:

http://www.singaporeair.com/saa/en_UK/docs/company_info/investor/annual/SIA_AnnReport0607.pdf

--Россавиа 15:15, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

To avoid Russavia being drawn into an edit war, which will be bad for everyone's blood pressure, I have also reverted Huaiwei's deletion of sourced material. I still do not see a reason for Huaiwei's repeated deletions in all the above comments. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 08:47, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I have also reverted the change to avoid Russavia becoming involved in an edit war. There is no reason for this accurate and verified information to be removed from the article. SempreVolando (talk) 20:14, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

At what point does this go to the next step with {{Uw-vandalism2}} and the later templates being added to user talk pages? Another options are {{Uw-longterm}}, {{Uw-own1}}, {{Uw-nor1}}, {{Uw-npov1}}, {{Uw-unsourced1}} (for adding unsourced material so it may not apply). I think everyone has been hoping that mediation would resolve this. But since that is not the case, then all avenues to deal with this edit war need to be used. Vegaswikian (talk) 22:06, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Edit warring is not vandalism, so those templates would be over the top. A couple of users are behaving childishly, over a couple of issues, but surprisingly continue to work constructively on the rest of the article. Temporary blocks might just work (people are breaking 3RR which gets automatic 24 h block.) RFC and arbcom are next steps - will just get several useful editors 'topic banned'. Lets wait until they get bored again. Boredom may be a better mediator than a human. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 22:58, 13 May 2008 (UTC)_Parent_-->_Subsidiary?"> _Parent_-->_Subsidiary?">

That's why I offered other options. Are you saying that none of those suggested warnings are appropriate? This is more then a simple edit war. Knowing some of the parties involved, I don't see this blowing over. There is an effort to try and formally mediate this dispute but that requires the involved parties to agree to the process. At this time, the key players have not all agreed so the second mediation step may not happen. Vegaswikian (talk) 23:10, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

• I am all for NPOV but when I see such POV crusaders pushing their view into my face, I find that an insult. You don't go around other people's house and steal or stick something in there whilst claiming to be waiting for the Police to arrive to arrest you and still expect the owner wouldn't pull out a 12-gauge shot gun without any buckshots that won't have your name on it, do you? Perhaps that was a bad analogy but the bottom-line here is, please respect others here even if you disagree with them. I agree to disagree and I also disagree to agree but should you find yourself unable to do so, I think it's best you take a break and do something else instead of getting your temper or view fouled up by your personal inability to agree with what I just said here.

Read also

1. Misplaced Pages:WikiLove
2. Misplaced Pages:WikiHate
3. Misplaced Pages:WikiCrime
4. Misplaced Pages:Staying cool when the editing gets hot

--Dave1185 (talk) 23:19, 13 May 2008 (UTC)_Parent_-->_Subsidiary?"> _Parent_-->_Subsidiary?">

GA quickfail

I regret to inform you that this article meets the criteria for being quick failed. The article contains quite a few "citation needed" tags. Please provide citations in all of these instances before renomination. Thanks. Nikki311 14:43, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Merge Singapore Airlines fleet

With WP:AIRLINES deeming registrations irrelevant (and the community agreeing with comments on VS and VX fleet page AfDs leaning towards delete), there is no longer any material on the SQ fleet page that can't be merged into the main SQ page. With the SQ page effectively being a repository for 2 tables, I feel it ought to be merged into the SQ page, as pretty much no other airline wiki page has separate (and pretty much redundant) fleet pages. Butterfly0fdoom (talk) 18:34, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree, there is nothing on the standalone fleet page which cannot be merged once the 'cruft' of plane spotter style registrations etc... has been deleted. SempreVolando (talk) 09:02, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Edit warring

There is too much reverting here, the page will end up protected soon if you don't stop. I admit that I'm mystified why the parent company info is impermissible. Could someone please provide a *brief* explanation or link demonstrating why the Tenekwhatever parent is wrong? Please no attacks on other editors as explanations William M. Connolley (talk) 07:21, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

As far as I understand, Huaiwei acknowledges that Temasek is the majority shareholder of the corporate entity known as "Singapore Airlines Limited", but disputes that this makes Temasek the parent of the airline called "Singapore Airlines", which is only one of many business units in Singapore Airlines Ltd. Jpatokal (talk) 07:36, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually Singapore Airlines Limited and Singapore Airlines are two names for the same company. Vegaswikian (talk) 08:00, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not saying I agree with the line of argument above, I'm just attempting to summarize Huaiwei's POV. Jpatokal (talk) 09:16, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

You have actually summaried my primary concern very well. Goes to show that discussions can indeed take place without the insults and derogatory comments. As for Vegaswikian's comment that Singapore Airlines Limited = Singapore Airlines, yes I have stated before that Singapore Airlines Limited = Singapore Airlines = Singapore Airlines Group. An important point to consider, thou, is that this equation is true only when the "Singapore Airlines" element is not specified to refer solely to the "parent airline", a term the company frequently uses to refer to the airline called "Singapore Airlines" within the group of companies called "Singapore Airlines Limited", commonly shorterned also as "Singapore Airlines". Btw, it is interesting to note that this discussion is now taking place back in the talkpage, when it dosent seem to work in a MedCab, and a formal mediation process on this seems to be stuttering even before the word "Go"!--Huaiwei (talk) 19:26, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Though I only added this article to my watchlist a few weeks ago, I think that Jpatokal and Vegaswikian have correctly summarised the complaint. So I have a proposal to make that may satisfy all concerns, and may make your mediation shorter:

1. Omit the 'parent' section of the infobox
2. Describe the ownership of the business and its legal entities in a couple of sentences of article prose, without using the word 'parent'

Comments?

--Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 08:12, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

• I second your proposal, all in favour say aye! --Dave1185 (talk) 08:17, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
• I oppose, as I have on previous occasions, removing parent from the infobox, and also oppose not using the word parent in the article, in order to satisfy what I believe is not a valid concern. Airlines are companies, not just a brand which flies people from A to B whilst offering them all sorts of inflight entertainment, and extensive wine lists, etc. They are companies. To remove this verifiable information is to turn the article into the brand, whilst also turning it into an article on the Singapore Group of Companies (which is not a legally recognised entity - it isn't registered anywhere). Even then, a "group of companies" is simply another way of Companies have an ownership structure (in many cases they have a parent), many companies have subsidiaries. It's a fact of the business world. These articles are on the company, not the brand. Misplaced Pages is not an avenue for which to promote a brand. Read the article introduction and one can see why it is not a good idea to set such a bad precedent on Misplaced Pages articles dealing with companies. --Россавиа 09:26, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
  • The said dispute is not between a brand vs a company. Rather, they are between a part of a group of companies vs the entirety of that group. This has little to do with WP:NOT#ADVERTISING as Russavia constantly allerges, even if the article is about the brand, for there are obviously various brands on this planet which meet the notability criteria easily.--Huaiwei (talk) 19:39, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
    • A very good example would be Pepsi and Pepsico. --Dave1185 (talk) 03:29, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
• I also oppose, somewhat reluctantly. Hroðulf's proffered solution was, in fact, the status quo for a long time, but the fact of the matter is that there are countless solid primary and secondary sources where Temasek is described as Singapore Airlines' parent (see above), so why should we not state this as a fact with, perhaps, a footnote or link to the full explication? Jpatokal (talk) 16:35, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
  • A footnote is not even necessary if one looks at the article as it stands right this very minute. Under corporate management, much emphasis has been placed on the Singapore government stating it would take a hands off approach to the management of the company (along with a laundry list of instances where it has actually interfered in company affairs). If a shareholder holds say 40% of voting rights, it doesn't have the ability to manage that company alone; if a shareholder holds 55% (as Temasek does), then it does have the ability to manage that company on its own volition, and whether or not they exercise that management right in day to day affairs of the company is irrelevant, it doesn't change the fact that they do in fact, legally (and verifiably), control that enterprise. And this is more than covered by that emphasis already evident in the article. --Россавиа 17:20, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
  • There are also plenty of sources describing Temasek Holdings as the "biggest shareholder" of Singapore Airlines without mentioning the word "parent". At the same time, I find plenty of sources describing Singapore Airlines as the "parent company" of Tiger Airways despite the former holding only 49% of the later.--Huaiwei (talk) 19:42, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
    • The prolem is Huaiwei, is that it was yourself who made me jump thru hoops, and demanded a source from the company. And this has been provided dozens of times, and now again from the annual report:

Singapore Airlines Limited ("the Company") is a limited liability company incorporated in the Republic of Singapore which is also the place of domicile. The Company is a subsidiary company of Temasek Holdings (Private) Limited, incorporated in the Republic of Singapore. Are you disputing that this statement from Singapore Airlines, in an annual report which was audited by Ernst & Young, and submitted to the Singapore Stock Exchange in accordance with various Singaporean corporation laws, is wrong? --Россавиа 17:53, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

• Ages ago a tried to make this into three articles. One on the company, one on the brand and one on the group. This would have done a lot in my opinion to make the articles simpler and easier to read. It would have also made it clearer how the company was really set up and working. However the fact that this is mostly a single company that is also an airline really forced it back into a single article. I still think that if you pulled out the SIA brand into an article, you would have ample space in a much smaller article to explain this particular problem and maybe end one edit war. It would not address the issues with the airline per say. However I have no idea at this point in time if that idea is viable or even reasonable. Vegaswikian (talk) 18:27, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
  • If a solution must be worked out to end edit wars, than any solution may have to be re-examined. I have objected this proposal before due to same problem that they are but one entiry, but I am prepared to relook at this proposal if no other compromise can be found. I wonder if Russavia understands the meaning of "compromise" thou to take a similar stance and explore all possible options thou.--Huaiwei (talk) 19:45, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
    • I would love to hear from other editors if the SIA brand (airline) as an article is an acceptable way to go. Clearly the owner of the brand is Singapore Airlines Limited with its multiple names and ownership issues. If we went in this direction, how would Singapore Airlines Group fit in? It would be something associated with the brand and probably the parent company. Vegaswikian (talk) 20:52, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
      • It would be a lot of work (unless you already have your previous attempt at a split in history or in a sandbox.) Also, maintenance would be harder, as some facts would belong in 2 or 3 articles. And it has been done elsewhere, such as Coca-Cola and Royal Bank of Scotland Group. I personally dislike it, because to me it confuses readers and editors that are new to the topic, but if others think it would work, and the pitfalls more manageable than the problems we have right now, then it is certainly an option. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 21:23, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
• I strongly support Hroðulf's approach, an approach which I have recommended before and which is already implimented in a way in the existing article. The "parent company" field in this article has been filled by "Singapore Airlines Limited" for many many moons until the unilateral amendment to "Temasek Holdings" by Russavia. Despite my objections to this given the concerns already stated above, he proceeded to make such changes in numerous other articles, so much so that I had to voice objection in , where I have recommended that the entry "parent company" be replaced by a far less suggestive and more descriptive term of "major shareholder(s)". As per Hroðulf's second proposal, it may be worth noting that the article already attempts to explain its corporate setup, as well as the role its "majority shareholder" actually plays (or doesnt play) in the running of the company. There has been no need to use the word "parent" to accomplish this.--Huaiwei (talk) 19:35, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Nice to be supported. I don't see why you dislike 'parent'. It is not suggestive, only descriptive, and means exactly the same thing as majority shareholder. However I accept that you and Dave1185 do dislike it, so I think we should find a way to work with you as long as it does not involve deleting facts. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 21:23, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
    • Hey, I work in this company for the past eleven years. It is a known fact within my company that Temasek Holdings is just a majority shareholder, else why do we (SIA) have our own board of directors, this is also true for the other subsidiaries such SATS, SIAEC, SATS Auxiliary Police and this has been so since the founding of this company since 1972. --Dave1185 (talk) 03:41, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
      • Why does it have a board of directors? Simply answered, it is required to, because it is a company listed on the Singapore Stock Exchange, and a company which is bound by the laws of Singapore dealing with corporations. And it is also a known fact within the business community that Temasek isn't just a majority shareholder, but is the parent company. Even Singapore Airlines itself acknowledges this in its own annual report in which it states:
        • Singapore Airlines Limited ("the Company") is a limited liability company incorporated in the Republic of Singapore which is also the place of domicile. The Company is a subsidiary company of Temasek Holdings (Private) Limited, incorporated in the Republic of Singapore. --Россавиа 18:14, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • While not really helpful, corporate ownership makes an interesting read. At one point didn't someone source a policy or guideline that provided the guidance to list a majority owner as the owner in infoboxes? Vegaswikian (talk) 06:23, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

OK... so, I think I understand this better now. We all agree that Temasek own a majority shareholding, but disagree as to whether this makes them a "parent" or not. Just because there are WP:RS saying they *are* the parent doesn't mean we have to say the same. The substance is that T are majority shareholders. The article already says this, in its current state, though no very prominently. Would replacing the word "parent" with "majority shareholder" in the info box be a good idea / acceptable compromise or not? (btw, one thing I'm missing in all this heat is why anyone cares enough to revert so assiduously... is there a political undercurrent that no one is mentionning, or that I've missed? William M. Connolley (talk) 21:31, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

• That's a very good idea, but there's an unfortunate side effect for other articles: for airlines that are 100% owned by another company/airline, it would be misleading to characterize the sole shareholder as merely a "majority" shareholder. But this could be neatly worked around by just defining a "majority shareholder" field in addition to "parent", and picking the right one for each article. Alternatively, just call it "Main shareholders", and list the actual percentages? Jpatokal (talk) 04:48, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

• As per our discussion, I agree with your recommendation. As for this big mess, well... call it a kind of persistent disagreement between User:Russavia (as well as those in his camp) with User:Huaiwei (as well as those in his camp). I'm all for NPOV here but as I told you before, myself being an employee of this company I find this issue amusing and yet flabberghasted by the amount of dirt it has managed to stir up here. --Dave1185 (talk) 03:27, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

• • Another thing is, why the need to add another footnote or infobox to an article that is already quite bloated (in size, that is) when there exist a section in the page that aptly describe this whole ownership thingie. Read: Singapore_Airlines#Corporate_management. And dare I say this, with the page approaching 100K in size why would anyone want to merge the fleet part back into the page? I wonder... is there some kind of hidden agenda? Read also: Misplaced Pages:Article size. --Dave1185 (talk) 04:39, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
    • Dave1185, wasn't it yourself who left a message on my talk page saying that it was good that I picked up that Temasek being the parent was missing from the article and that I added it back in? --Россавиа 18:14, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
• I would ask that others look at the SingTel article, in which a similar thing has occurred. I posted information in that article that SingTel is a subsidiary of Temasek, which was reverted by Huaiwei. Which he changed to a majority shareholder only. If you look at that article as it stands now, you will see not only does it have Temasek as being the parent in the infobox, but it also clearly states that SingTel is a subsidiary of Temasek. Why the difference for this article? I don't get it. --Россавиа 18:14, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

• Former good article nominees
• All unassessed articles
• B-Class aviation articles
• B-Class airline articles
• WikiProject Airlines articles
• Aviation collaboration candidates
• WikiProject Aviation articles
• B-Class company articles
• Mid-importance company articles
• WikiProject Companies articles
• Misplaced Pages pages with to-do lists