Misplaced Pages

I generally agree that this article is something with potential to become a guideline in light of the fact that two strong precedents have effectively defined wiki-stalking's abusive forms and classified it as an offense with very stiff penalties. In accordance with the developments of the two noted precedent cases it is probably wise to update Misplaced Pages's guidelines to reflect them, and this can be done over time as awareness grows regarding the outcome of those cases. I concur that it is probably a little premature to add the formal guideline tag right now, though we are quickly approaching that stage and in the meantime an informal tag of some sort indicating that nature is appropriate. As an aside, it is also inappropriate that editors who have engaged in Wiki-stalking themselves (and thus have a conflict of interest in which they stand to lose as the Misplaced Pages community's awareness of this article grows) should be involved in "policing" the edits to this article as it develops. As noted above, this includes User:Willmcw who currently has wikistalking complaints pending against him and whose edits here thus far have been conducted for the purposes of removing content and/or diverting community attention away from this article as it develops. At minimum, any maintanence activities of the sort this and other conflicted editors have thus far been engaged in should be conducted by a more neutral party. Rangerdude 20:52, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Does the charge of potential conflict of interest also extend to you, as the person who is pursuing the "wikistalking" charge against User:Willmcw? · Katefan0 21:02, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

Katefan - I have not engaged in the practice of wikistalking and therefore do not stand to gain by obstructing the development of this article as he does. As the article's provisions do not apply to an activity I have engaged in no comparable conflict of interest exists. Rangerdude 21:07, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Aha. That's interesting logic. Don't you think that anybody involved in a current case of "wikistalking" who is tinkering with a proposed policy on the phenomenon could reasonably be seen to have a conflict of interest? I don't see how being the perceived aggrieved party in this case makes it less of a conflict of interest for you. Some might suggest that a person in your situation might have a keen interest in seeing this policy developed in such a way as to help their case. I am not suggesting any nefarious motives necessarily on your part, only point out how it could reasonably be suggested that you might have a conflict of interest too. If there are two parties involved in a case that bears on this under-development policy, it would seem that both could equally be seen to be having a potential conflict of interest. As such, I'd expect both to recuse themselves. · Katefan0 21:12, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

By your rationale, Katefan, any editor who has ever been harmed by personal attacks, legal threats, vandalism, 3RR, or any number of other similar problems that many editors encounter regularly on Misplaced Pages is also conflicted from contributing to the development of any policy or guideline regarding the same offenses. But that would be an absurd stipulation that ultimately inhibits the development of those policies since every editor encounters one or another sometime on wikipedia. Those editors contributing constructively to the development of the said policy or guideline gain nothing more than the cumulative outcome of its application to wikipedia in general as a preventative measure against future disruption. Policies and guidelines do not apply ex post facto, Katefan, so no - my case against Willmcw's past stalking does not "gain" as you suggest, and indeed the object of a guideline proposal such as this is entirely for future occurrences that violate what are now two well established precedents by the Arbcom and Jimbo Wales. Those editors who have engaged in the discouraged activity in the past, however, do stand to lose from a restriction being placed against a favored inappropriate pattern of behavior in the future because it makes their future abuses subject to repercussions if they continue. Rangerdude 21:32, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure what purpose you think this pseudo-legalese serves; all I'm saying is that if you think one party to the dispute could have a conflict of interest, then logically the other party could as well. Nobody has ever "decided" this dispute in either editor's favor (your failed RFC notwithstanding), so to suggest that you should be able to develop the policy while Willmcw can't is proceeding from rather shaky ground. Either both of you can, or both of you can't, for the exact same reasons. Maybe we should try RFC and see what others think. · Katefan0 01:48, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

If it will help even things out I will bring a charge of wikistalking against user:Rangerude. ;) -Willmcw 22:56, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

Unfortunately for your cause, Will, that would be a WP:POINT disruption on your part, having arisen out of stated objections to your conflicted interest in the efforts to develop this article. Rangerdude 23:42, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing your opinion. However the fact remains that we all have an equal right to edit this project page. Cheers, -Willmcw 00:18, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

You're free to edit, Will, but I'm just as free to point out that you are doing so with a substantial conflict of interest for having previously engaged in the same behavior that is the subject of this article and the Wales and Arbcom precedents. I'm also free to ask you to refrain from certain editing practices where that conflict of interest is apparant - particularly in avoiding procedural edits that modify the guideline proposal and its requests for input. Thanks. Rangerdude 00:27, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes, you are free to ask anything you like. However you are wrong that I have "engaged in the same behavior that is the subject of this article and the Wales and Arbcom precedents." Are you going to move straight from accusation to judgement to punishment, all on your own? Maybe this proposed guideline should have a section on false accusations. Cheers, -Willmcw 00:37, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

The evidence has been documented for anybody who wishes to see, Will, but that is a matter for other places than this page. This discussion is about developing an article on the subject of wiki-stalking per two applicable precedents that deem it a bannable offense. Good faith efforts are being made here to define the article's subject and accomodate the Arbcom's recent definition of it. The fact that it casts disfavor upon a behavior in which you regularly participate is not a basis to disrupt its development. Rangerdude 01:42, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Since I don't engage in harassing behavior, you are incorrect. But I certainly have been accused of wikistalking, most prominently by User:Thodin. (He also accused half of the admins of being my sock puppets - does that mean I can't participate in discussions of sock puppet policies too?) If it is a matter for other pages, then why do you keep bringing it up here? It is funny that you are participating in writing the (proposed) guideline at the same time as you are building an attack page accusing me of violating it. Doesn't the right hand know what the left hand is doing? Is this when you are going to tell me to assume good faith? -Willmcw 22:15, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

Guideline proposal discussion

Greetings - I added a proposal tag to this guideline for the purpose of aiding in its development and to gather community assistance and input on its contents. For wikipedians who are unfamiliar or unaware with this article or its subject matter, it was created recently for the purpose of reflecting two recent Misplaced Pages dispute resolution precedents in which the Arbcom and Jimbo Wales determined that certain harassing forms of wiki-stalking are bannable disruptions carrying substantial penalties for abuse. The aim of this article is accordingly to explain and clarify the concept of wiki-stalking in light of these decisions. New contributers should take a moment to review these precedents, which are described and linked to here. Suggestions pertaining to this article's proposal tag and recommended changes should be discussed in the area located below this header, as should questions or comments regarding clarification and formatting. Thank you for your input! Rangerdude 21:07, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Please read Misplaced Pages:How to create policy. It takes more than adding a "proposed" tag. Cheers, -Willmcw 22:59, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

Actually, Will, the page you cite is just a guideline of methods on how to propose a policy. This is under consideration for a guideline, which is established by consensus, and is tagged accordingly as one of many ways to do so. The article itself, which "sprung up organically" from repeated precedents and developing consensus, is a sufficient and developing draft for the guideline and plenty of explanations for its need (e.g. the recent Arbcom decision) may be found here on the talk page. I've also added some links to it on the Village Pump for contributions by any interested editors. Rangerdude 23:20, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

I've added a section at the Misplaced Pages talk:Village pump (policy) to explicitly notify the community of your proposal. The link you added did not mention that there was a guideline proposal, if I read it correctly. Oh, and Misplaced Pages:How to create policy also covers guidelines. Cheers, -Willmcw 23:29, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

It appears we were both working on the Village Pump posting at the same time. I put together a more detailed description of the issues & replaced your text with it. Since you are opposed to this article, Will, and are conflicted in it as the subject of pending wikistalking allegations against you, it is more appropriate that editors supporting the proposal make the applicable requests for input. Thanks. Rangerdude 23:39, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Also, per Misplaced Pages:How to create a policy "The following general principles were gathered together following the implementation of several policies across the encyclopedia. As you will see from the guidelines themselves, these points are guidelines, not rules. You know best what will work in your case." IOW, there's more than one way to do it and no strict procedure. Rangerdude 23:54, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your opinions, but I am neither "opposed to this article" nor "subject of pending wikistalking allegations". If you'd made the request when you said you had then I wouldn't have had to go add it myself. Cheers, -Willmcw 23:43, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

Deny whatever you want, Will, but the fact that you've been specifically accused of harassment by wikistalking is recorded. Furthermore, if you'd wait more than two minutes between posting a demand and then taking it upon yourself to do it in absence of a response despite standing objections to your conflicted interest here, you might find other editors are much more accomodating to the initial demands than you think. Rangerdude 23:54, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Open to abuse

Having been seriously harrassed by a user who accused me of cyberstalking him because I used his contribs to check his edits given the extreme POV nature of his edits (eg sticking paternity rights all over the opening paragraph of abortion). I think the page in it's present form is wide open to abuse by people who have good reasons not to want their edits scrutinised, eg POV warriors etc. Not enough attention is given to this and I fear it will be another tool whereby bad users can harrass good ones, SqueakBox 23:47, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

Squeakbox - Thanks for the comments. Do you have any suggestions on how to resolve this potential problem? I am of the belief that providing better clarification between legitimate forms of following other users and the type of harassment that has led to Wales' and the Arbcom bannings of abusive wikistalkers could actually reduce the number of bad editors who harass good ones over stalking allegations. The Arbcom's definition of wikistalking is IMO the best starting point for this and seems to be a neutral basis for a guideline definition. Rangerdude 23:58, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

User:KingOfAllPaperboys stalking of User:neutrality is another precedent

Is there any way of figuring out the status of that account BTW? It is under a permanent block without an arbcom decision?--Silverback 23:53, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

highly subjective is highly problematic

Two cases, one by arbcom and one by Jimbo Wales. That should say something. The manhours of work this policy will generate will be massive. many editors tend to stick to a set of articles defined by their watchlist, which means overlap with other editors must occur. Then if a new article is linked to an existing article, many editors from the old article will move to the new one. Cries of "stalking" will be heard throughout the land. From a purely objective view, it will appear to be true. one editor started editing an article, and suddenly a number people he knows are editing it too. Sorting out the editor histories will be a pure effort of manual labor. There will be no other way to figure out any charge of "stalking". You can't just look at edit timestamps in contribution histories and compare, you've got to determine a pattern of edit-response, edit-response. You then have to determine that it isn't really bad edit-response, bad edit-response. And it comes down to a subjective interpretation. It will be extremely easy to accuse someone of wiki-stalking, the number of hours that people will have to put into determining it to be true or false will be huge. I keep hearing that arbcom is behind on its cases; this will make it worse. Even worse, the accusation is as difficult to disprove as it is to prove, which means that RFC's charging editors with "wiki-stalking" will be an excellent way to game the system, make an accusation that is impossible to disprove in any objective way, and get a bunch of allies to swamp the certification/endorsement section with signatures. Any policy that encourages cliquish behaviour and even rewards it is seriously asking for wikipedia trouble. Unless someone can convince me these issues are invalid, I strongly oppose this idea. FuelWagon 23:59, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

FW, I agree. It's a wholly impossible task. Beyond which, it would have to be extraordinarily carefully crafted in order to prevent people with a POV agenda or axe to grind to cry "wiki-stalking" when their edits get extra scrutiny from good faith editors, as SqueakBox mentioned above. · Katefan0 01:53, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

I suspect dropping the whole policy idea is the best way to deal with cyberstalking. The whole watchlist system and open contribs is to some people a licence for others others to stalk them, while for others these are a sign of our openness, and should not be abandoned in the name of cyberstalking. Did I mention the above mentioned stalking accuser in my example was using a sockpuppet, and therefore did not want any scrutiny of his acts, for this reason particularly. Do we want people to be able to hide what they are doing by demanding others don't get involved in the articles they are editing ("you can't edit this article, Englishperson, its about the States, and this is the proof that you are stalking me"). I fear this policy in anything like its current form will, if enacted, lead to disaster. There are other ways to stop negative cyberstalking than this one, hence the 2 successful arbcome cases already, which to me indicate we don't need a policy page on this. I can well imagine 9 out of 10 cases brought under this policy being false claims, esp as most genuine cyberstalkers break the rules in some other way, whereas the bad faith editor who has nothing to pin on a good faith editor will probably use this to latch onto, SqueakBox 02:17, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

SqueakBox - While your concerns with making a policy that is not prone to abuse are valid, simply omitting wikistalking from the realm of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines is no longer a viable option now that both Jimbo Wales and the Arbcom have made very specific statements classifying it as a major breach of WP protocol and in the case of the Arbcom defining what it is. Both have effectively said of wikistalking "do this to another editor and you will be banned for a long time." It's great that the Arbcom and Wales have set these precedents, but they alone are not sufficient for the purpose of informing general wikipedia users of what's acceptable and what isn't. For starters, most wikipedians aren't even aware of these decisions and may not even know they're doing something wrong (or worse, some may know they are doing something wrong but continue to do it because they think they can get away with it since there's no written update in the rules to reflect these outcomes). Also simply saying that the arbitration process will take care of things is insufficient because arbitration is a long drawn out procedure that already has a huge backlog of cases. We can't honestly expect that every single case of genuine wikistalking that emerges should have to work its way through the arbitration process or personally get Jimbo Wales involved like these ones did. In that respect, having a guideline that editors could direct abusers to with a simple note to "knock it off" would probably avert 99 out of 100 wikistalking cases. Also please note that this is a proposed guideline that advises wikipedians how to behave and informs them of the consequences that have been imposed against abusive wikistalkers - not a policy that mandates that they conform to a spelled out code. It is also worded in such a way to explicitly exempt a wide range of properly following vandals and the sort from what constitutes a stalking violation, so it seems to me that concerns of such cases being labelled improper stalking are unfounded if you read the actual description of what is and isn't stalking. Rangerdude 03:30, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Given what you say I have started to edit the page, SqueakBox 04:37, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

I agree, if it were viable to ignore the issue I'd VFD this page right now, however since the arbcom and Jimbo have specifically mentioned stalking on the wiki and on the mailing list it is better to have a policy, albeit one that definately needs improvement then to not have one at all. Jtkiefer ----- 04:41, August 17, 2005 (UTC)