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Revision as of 04:38, 22 May 2008

Brazil B‑class

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Ukraine B‑class Mid‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ukraine, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Ukraine on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.UkraineWikipedia:WikiProject UkraineTemplate:WikiProject UkraineUkraine B This article has been rated as B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

People of Jewish origin

Ukraine was home to very many Jews, some of whom emigrated to Brazil. I've removed those people from the list of prominant Ukrainians because although they or their ancestors were from lands that are Ukraine they were not Ukrainians. Many of their ancestors were from cities (such as Odessa) where few people were actually Ukrainian and where very few even spoke Ukrainian. These people better belong in the article on Brazilian Jews. Otherwise even Sigmund Freud will become a prominant Ukrainian (his ancestors were from a shtetl in what is now Ukraine)Faustian (talk) 21:39, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

This is racism. In Nazi Germany, Jews were not considered "Germans" because of their non-Germanic origins and their religion. This is ridiculous.

Why are you claiming a people who has been living in Ukraine for at least 1 thousand year is not Ukrainian? Only because of their faith?

This sounds Nazi to me. Ukrainian-Jews have been living there for centuries. This make them Ukrainians; maybe more Ukrainians than many "ethinic Ukrainians". Opinoso (talk) 14:47, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

In Ukraine (and elsewhere in Eastern Europe) Jews are considered a nationality and not just religion - it said so on their passports. For example there are some Orthodox Christians who are Jewish by nationality (see for example Alexander Men).

Particularly 100 years ago, there was segregation in that Jews lived in their own settlements, spoke Yiddish or Hebrew (and Polish) and not a word of Ukrainian. Nowadays they would be considered Ukrainain because of Ukrainian citizenship. But in those days even that would not be the case. With respect to living in Ukraine for 1,000 - yes, but again that does not mean that they are Ukrainian. Poles, for example, have lived in Ukraine for centuries also, and yet they are not categorized on wikipedia as Ukrainians. Look at the articles on Stanisław Albinowski, the writer Joseph Conrad, and many others all born in what is now Ukraine but properly categorized as Poles. With respect to Jews, famous Jewish philosopher Martin Buber, whose family originates in UKraine, also not considered Ukrainian. And the famous Nazi-hunter Simon Wiesenthal is also from Ukraine, and is properly labeleld as JEwish or Austrian or Ukrainian Jew. He would probably be surprised to be called a "Ukrainian."

There is nothing Nazi-like or racist about proper categorization.Faustian (talk) 16:07, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

We are in 2008, not in 1850.

Nowadays, Jews born in Ukraine are considered Ukrainians. We don't care if 100 years ago they were not. Opinoso (talk) 21:48, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, if you are talking about people from 100 years ago then it matters. Neither an ethnic Ukrainian, nor a Ukrainian citizen, nor Ukrainian speaking = not Ukrainian. Otherwise, Julius Caesar was an Italian.Faustian (talk) 23:24, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I suggest you read the history of Odessa and New Russia before you refer to these people as Ukrainians. Any Ukrainian or Jew from Ukraine reading this will laugh.Faustian (talk) 23:33, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Laugh? This is serious. Nazi people argued German Jews were not Germans and killed them.

Nowadays, everybody see Jews born in Ukraine as Ukrainians. Ask people's opinition before excluding Jews from Ukrainian list only because of their religion and origin. Opinoso (talk) 00:51, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Godwin's law. Nazis probably also used umbrellas when it rained. So we should not use umbrellas when it rains? Fact is that when these people or their anccestors lived what is now Ukraine was part of Poland, Austria or Russia. So they were Polish or Russian or Austrian citizens. These people weren't Ukrainian ethnically either - they were Jews. Nor were they Ukrainian speaking. One of them was from Odesa. Do you know the history of Odessa? It was founded by the Russian empress Catherine II and settled by Russians and Russian-speaking Jews. Those people were as Ukrainian as a typical resident of New York is an Iroquois.

I understand that westerners probably don't know the diffeence between these people and so I don't hold that against you. but this is basic knowledge for anyone from Eastern Europe, sorry.Faustian (talk) 03:47, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

This discusiion on Gogol might give you a clue about identity in eastern Europe: . Good luck!Faustian (talk) 03:54, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Read the article about shtetls. From the article: "The shtetl's main interaction with gentile citizens was in trading with the neighboring peasants. There was often animosity towards the Jews from these peasants, resulting in pogroms. This, among other things, helped foster a very strong "us-them" mentality based on an exaggeration of differences between the peoples."

One of the people you list as a Ukrainian is Clarice Lispector. From her page: "Chaya Lispector was born in Chechelnyk, Podolia, a shtetl in what is today Ukraine. She was the youngest of three daughters of Pinkhas Lispector and Mania Krimgold Lispector. Her family suffered terribly during the pogroms that followed the dissolution of the Russian Empire and the Russian Civil War, circumstances later dramatized by her older sister Elisa Lispector's autobiographical novel No exílio (In Exile, 1948)." So, a Jewish girl (who never in her life would consider herself a Ukrainian) from what was at the time Russia, horribly persecuted by Ukrainians, becomes herself a Ukrainian because 80 years after leaving the place the territory where her village once was became part of independent Ukraine. It's just silly and, again, any eastern European reading the article claiming that these people were Ukrainians will find it funny. It reminds me of how funny a Russian friend from Tashkent found it when some American called him an Uzbek. Such mistakes really detract from the article's quality.

But don't take my word for it. Find some well-known Jews or Poles or Russians from Ukraine and put them in the Ukrainian category. See how quickly you get reverted there, too. You can start with Joseph Conrad, a Polish-English writer who was born in territory that is now Ukraine. Go for it.Faustian (talk) 04:17, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Who cares about race, religion or identity? Nowadays everybody see a person born in Ukraine as being Ukrainian. Nobody cares if people did not see this way 200 years ago.

Stop trying to revive a 200 years ago segregationist concept. Opinoso (talk) 04:21, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

That's your opinion. The fact is that they did not consider themselves Ukrainian. They were not Ukrainian citizens. They did identify themselves as Ukrainians. If they are UKrainians then Julius Caesar was an Italian.Faustian (talk) 04:28, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

This is not my opinion. Jews were persecuted for centuries in Europe, and Europeans tried in every way excluded them from the context of the continent, trying to make them something a part from reality, even after a thousand years living in Europe.

If those Jews did not consider themselves to be Ukrainians, we don't care. Probably many Christian Ukrainians living in the border with Poland or Russia did not see themselves as Ukrainians at that time.

Those Brazilians do have ancestors who were born, raised and lived in nowadays Ukraine for centuries. We don't care if these ancestors were Jews, Catholics, Orthodox, Muslims, Buddshist, whatever.

The fact is that they have ancestors living in Ukraine for at least 1 thousand years, not matter their religion or what was writen in their passport.

I will not accept that 200 years ago racist views have space in Misplaced Pages. Jews were not accepted as Ukrainians only because of their religion. If a Jew came up saying he was Christian at that time, he would probably become a Ukraine to the view of the society.

Stop racism. Opinoso (talk) 04:38, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

• B-Class Brazil articles
• Unknown-importance Brazil articles
• WikiProject Brazil articles
• B-Class Ukraine articles
• Mid-importance Ukraine articles
• WikiProject Ukraine articles