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In some mythologies there are also dark elves, sometimes known as Drow, which are wicked and evil. Elves are enemies of the goblins.

In what mythologies, outside of AD&D? AD&D is a gaming system, not a source of legitimate folklore. In much actual folklore, there is little distinction between elves, goblins, trolls, and other gremlins; they're all various kinds of little gremlins, or occasionally big gremlins, with (I think) no fixed speciation (as it were), as there is in Tolkien's works or those derivative of them. --LMS

I have seen references to "dark elves" in books on Norse mythology.As for the name Drow, I have never heard of it. Your are quite correct that elves, goblins, trolls, etc blend together. I suspect that many are regional variants, e.g., trolls may be the Norwegian version of elves. Poor scholarship and migration of peoples have probably confused once-seperate traditions. -- hajhouse

No, it is true that the "races" blend together. However, they are not regional variants. In the old days, a Scandinavian farmer distinguished between a variety of creatures, such as tomte, troll, Nixie, wight, elf, etc. The difference was that they represented different ideas. The Tomte lived at the farm and helped the farmer during the night. The Troll was the danger that lurked in the forest or in the mountain. The Nixie was the danger that dwelt in rivers and lakes, the wights was a general name for different spritits in nature, and the elves were females that could bee seen dancing over bogs, in the evening, when the mist rose. The Huldra was the female that seduced men who walked in the forest, etc. etc. Wiglaf

In norse mythology there also were dark elves called svartalfar. Ausir 20:56, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

In Norse mythology, the elves are regarded as the alfs and dwell in Alfheim, or the realm of the light elves. As recognized in J.R.R. Tolkien's literary masterpiece The Lord of the Rings, the elves are seen as tall and beautiful beings that are far superior to Men in lore, architecture, song, and magic. They too will have apart in Ragnarok as they fight their evil counterparts, the dark elves who dwell in the underground world of Svartalfheim.

                                           Sal Della Villa- June 4, 2004

Elves and Trolls...

There is a distinct difference between Elves and Trolls.

Elves in Norse Mythology are portrayed as fair to behold, slim and possessed of magical powers. A troll, or Grendel, is a large brutish creature with a love of human flesh.

In folklore Elves are portrayed as Pixies and are still generally better-looking then trolls. Personally, an Elf is Tolkein's representation, as are Trolls or Grendels. The 'Elves' and the shoe-maker are nothing more than pixies.

No offence to anyone, but these different races have only been merged and confused by people telling stories, folk who are not altogether interested in the true source. It's much like Chinese Whispers, where a little of the truth changes with each retelling.

When we're talking about fiction and folklore, every source is a true source. The shoe-maker elves and similar diminutive, industrious elf traditions (Santa's elves come to mind) actually have a lot more to do with Norse elves than English pixies. Likewise, Norse trolls varied between dwarf and giant, mischievous and evil. -- Perey 04:25, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The Drow.

The Drow are chiefly in Dungeons and Dragons and do not appear in any myth or religion. They were based loosely on the concept of a Dark Elf... or Evil Elf.

They live underground, have black skin and white hair, practising torture frequantly.

See Drow for connections to real folklore, both in name and form. -- Perey 16:50, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Is an elf with its head between its legs a goblin?

Paolini?

This view is shared by Christopher Paolini "Eragon" who also believed in the Norse elves and has written about elves in his book.

Is this of particular significance? It seems like a poorly-written "me too" inclusion of someone's favoured author. Recommend that someone familiar with Paolini revises it, expands it to explain why Paolini's not just another author who's "written about elves", or deletes it entirely if need be.

Other

Less popular sources talk of a battle between the elves and other mystical creatures. Elves in theese stories are often depicted as small defensless beings living in trees. They are forced to this new habitat by loss of battle between the gnomes and pixies. Also in this tale pixies are described as fearsome beings with claws and blades at the tips of there wings.

Fixed the link

To the Wiki Commons page. --Kross 06:42, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC)

I just wanted to say that I very much appreciated this article; while there may be room for improvement, as it stands it's an excellent piece of work.

Just A Comment

This article is fantastic. I've begun research on a fantasy world that I am creating for a series of novels, and this article has set me on track as far as Elves are concerned. I have a number of books on Elves set to arrive at a later date for more in-depth research, but this article, again, has set me off with a great start. - Matt S.

I agree; this article really is quite good. Harkenbane 10:57, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The Shoemaker and the Elves

I removed this section from German folklore:

The Brothers Grimm fairy tale The Shoemaker & the Elves is probably the most famous original elf tale. The elves are only one foot tall in this story, naked, and like to work on shoes, as leprechauns do. When the shoemaker rewards their work with little clothes, the elves are so delighted, that they run away and are never seen again. (This tale is echoed in J. K. Rowling's Harry Potter stories: see below.)

These are not Elves, they are Heinzelmännchen, which is translated as "elf" into English. If it absolutely has to be mentioned in the article, it would be more appropriate under English folklore, since that is the only folklore where they are Elves.--Wiglaf 4 July 2005 16:18 (UTC)

May I propose that the paragraph is reinserted at the bottom of the section as:

In the Brothers Grimm fairy tale Der Schuhmacher und die Heinzelmännchen, a group of naked, one foot tall beings called Heinzelmännchen help a shoemaker in his work. When he rewards their work with little clothes, they are so delighted, that they run away and are never seen again. Even though Heinzelmännchen are akin to beings such as kobolds and dwarves, the tale has been translated to English as The Shoemaker & the Elves, and is echoed in J. K. Rowling's Harry Potter stories: see below.)

Moreover, we have the problem with the nisser being described as elves, although if anything, they are descendants from Norse dwarves and landvaettir. As they are the Nordic equivalents to Santa's elves, I believe that they deserve a notice and a link, though, as long as they are not classified as elves. And by the way: where do the Santa-elves come from?

I also found out that H. C. Andersen's fairy tale The Goblin and the Huckster (Danish: Nissen hos Spekhøkeren) in German is Das Heinzelmännchen bei dem Krämer. This template must be substituted, see Template:Smile for instructions

Andersen has also written about an alf in The Elf of the Rose (Rosen-Alfen) and about elvere in The Elfin Hill (Elverhøi). Should probably be mentioned. --Salleman 4 July 2005 18:06 (UTC)

Go for it! :)--Wiglaf 4 July 2005 19:55 (UTC)

Removed from Elves at Christmas

I, on my side, removed the following from the Elves at Christmas section:

However, the elf legends are in fact, even older than Saint Nicholas, the bishop on whom Santa Claus was originally based. (One modern fantasy shows Santa's Elves as being the children whom Saint Nicholas resurrected after they had been murdered. By this miracle, they became immortal, never growing older.)

According to the Santa Claus article "In some images of the early 20th century, Santa was depicted as personally making his toys by hand in a small workshop like a craftsman. Eventually, the idea emerged that he had numerous elves responsible for making the toys"

As for the remark in parenthesis, it would be nice to know in what modern fantasy. --Salleman 5 July 2005 00:21 (UTC)

"In Dutch founded New York City, the traditions concerning Sinterklaas (now Santa Claus) continued, even though the black Peters sometime during the 19th century were converted to elves."

Deleted it because it is impossible. Before 1945 the Saint operated solo or with one servant (That's traditionally Dutch), furthermore the name Pete was not given to this figure before 1891. His appearance can be fixed to 1850. Before that he seems to have been a rather hard to identify character. Theodore W.

Revision to Fantasy Elves

Just changed the wording of the introductory paragraph to the fantasy elves, as most of it was redundant (the lengthy sentence on hobs and brownies having already been dealt with in the article). I did remove the reference to fairies, as "fairy" does not exclusively mean "pillywiggin" (insect-winged flower fairy). If you want to revert it, be my guest, but remember that the image of insect-winged fairies used in this article is becoming increasingly different than that of the fairy article, in which many different types of faeries are being mentioned (including, but not limited to, the elf equivalents in western Europe). -Iro

I made some rewording of your edit. I think you deleted some good prose. --Salleman 17:44, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Moving content to subarticles

There is no limit to the production of elves in popular culture. I think this article should focus on traditional elves, and I have created two subarticles for people to add their favourite elves in.--Wiglaf 17:45, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Etymology

I don't know who contributed this bit,

Although there has been debate, the words elf, álf and their relatives almost certainly come from the same Indo-European root *albh as the Latin albus (white).

but it is reasonably correct (it really is disputed, tho').

I have enough material at hand to expanded this by a sentence or two. Essentially, it can be related to a Vedic word for 'divine workman' and perhaps an Old Church Slavonic term for 'worker'. My own private theory is that this was name for a people who brought metal-working into the PIE lands (miners burrowing in the ground, the shiny metal they made (copper, perhaps gold, silver), even the shinyness of the glow of the forge fire.

But this is not the place for an exercise in Indo-European reconstruction. In all of the elf articles, I see there is etymological information, and this might be nicely combined into a daughter article. This article is long as it is. --FourthAve 04:16, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Well the guideline for a good article is that it should contain a section on etymology. It would be a great idea if you could write a subarticle on the etymology of elf and then link to it from the various articles (where you keep a line on the etymology).--Wiglaf 06:59, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

The "Elves in popular culture" article

This article really should be re-incorporated back into the main Elf article. Why should a section entitled "Elves in popular culture" be entirely devoted to elves in RPGs?

I've deleted the RPG paragraphs. They're all already in the "Elves in Popular culture" article anyway. I think, rather than looking at modern fantasy fiction or roleplay, a discussion of elves in popular culture should examine how they've manifested in everyday life. I've started a replacement paragraph but it needs work.

Serendipitous 11:11, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Elves, not Christmas

I removed the following passages from the article:

In the Netherlands, Saint Nicholas (Sinterklaas) has traditionally been held to live in Spain and be helped by a Moorish servant called the "Black Pete(r)" (Zwarte Pieten).

In the Nordic countries Santa is instead helped by nisser, dwarflike, bearded wights, dressed in red and gray. Traditionally it was believed that one such being lived on every farm and protected it from mishaps. On Christmas Eve, one must give him a bowl of porridge or rice pudding to reward him for his work. Stories were told of how the nisse might otherwise take his revenge for not getting porridge by killing a goat.

In Iceland, from December 12 until Christmas Eve, the thirteen Yule lads (jólasveinar) visit homes, a lad each day for 13 days, and play tricks on the children, as well as leaving presents for them. They first appeared in the 17th century and are reportedly the sons of Grýla and Leppalúði, two trolls with a taste for human children. However, the tradition is by some thought to be of pre-Christian origin, as it has much in common with the celebrations of Saint Lucy in Norway and Sweden on December 13.

None of these have anything to do with elves, but are about Santa's helpers. While elves are associated with this role in the US, UK and Canada, this does not merit the inclusion of non-elf-related Santa-helpers in other countries.

Peter 18:39, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

I support the removal.--Wiglaf 19:03, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Elvis

In Elvis impersonator, Elves is suggested as a Latin plural for "Elvis impersonator" (!). --Error 15:10, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes, this needs peer review!

I just removed the spurious and illegal Lord of the Rings screen shots, and now they have been restored. I don't want to start an edit war, but we've got to stop articles from being taken over by a bunch of inane fans. To you who think having screen shots from copyrighted motion pictures is legal just because there are a lot of them on Misplaced Pages, think again: it only means that there are a lot of idiots who try to turn artixles into Fanzines. The photos are also spurious because they add absolutely nothing to the article. Stop it NOW!

This article has already been tagged for peer review. Keep it up, and it will also be tagged for for Clean-up and NPOV. — J M Rice 21:36, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

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