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	Martial arts B‑class
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Martial arts. Please use these guidelines and suggestions to help improve this article. If you think something is missing, please help us improve them!Martial artsWikipedia:WikiProject Martial artsTemplate:WikiProject Martial artsMartial arts B This article has been rated as B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.

There are no "unauthorized" dojo of Sosuishiryu in existence. If one wanted to start up another entry, listing the true name of that "Unauthorized" and recently created style, that would be fine. Otherwise please do not associated it with Sosuishiryu as it exists in Japan or at the shibu dojo overseas- simply because there is no longer any connection (by their own admission and doing). Thanks! -Russ

Mekugi 11:19, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Please do not use original research or second-hand information as per Misplaced Pages general editing rules.

Kogusoku 04:09, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

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Please make sure to follow these basic guidelines when editing this article!! It simplifies the editing workflow and creates a harmonious, problem free environment in which to expand the content!! Also, although it hasn't happened yet this is preventative maintanence: Please make sure to keep all talk outside the improvement of this article out of this discussion area.

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Thanks and happy editing! Truly, Mekugi 14:15, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Futagami-ryu merged

I just merged the Futagami-ryu article to this page. I feel that the content on the original Futagami-ryu article was rather bleak and the content on the SSR article is more detailed, so there was really nothing it could add to the page. If anyone feels otherwise, please feel free to add it into the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mekugi (talk • contribs) 15:41, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Avoiding edit wars....

No one wants to be involved in an edit war. They need to be talked out....that means discussed here....as per Misplaced Pages guidelines - as a matter of Wiki public record.

All the best and thanks!

Mekugi 08:18, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

"Koshi no mawari" refers to swordsmanship?

Can someone check this against the sources used in the article? I don't have any information about Sosuishi-ryu, but I do have at least one good source stating that "kumiuchi koshi no mawari" is a term that refers to grappling (armed and unarmed). "Kumiuchi" and "koshi no mawari" were also used separately to refer to grappling skills. Obviously, "koshi no mawari" just means "around the waist", so I suppose that Sosuishi-ryu could be using the term in a unique way; I'm just urging someone to double-check it, and if the article is currently accurate, perhaps a note could be added that "koshi no mawari" historically refers to grappling. Bradford44 18:37, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

This source is probably from Draeger's book on classical martial arts about Takeuchi ryu. There is a slight error in what Mr. Draeger is writing because I suspect he wasn't that familiar with it (it happens). The truth is that it is not "really" grappling at all, but the use of the short sword and other items around the waist. In Takenouchi ryu it implies the use of the kogusoku/yoroi doshi, so it is not linked to grappling entirely, but to the use of weapons. This is how it is used in Sosuishi ryu because it also implies the use of the kodachi. The Makimono of Sosuishi ryu dated about 200 ago list the techniques under two categories, one being hte Kumi Uchi and the Other being Koshi no Mawari. This is also found in the book published by the Sekiryukan which shows some of the scrolls. :)

Mekugi 08:24, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

This is one very good source available online: http://www.geocities.jp/minamoto_hitotsugu/kogusoku.htm

"The oldest known book on the bugei ryuha of Japan, the Honcho Bugei Shouden (Vol.9 1914) states: "Kogusoku has been transmitted since ancient times. Takenouchi, one of the oldest bujutsu schools, is a great example of this because of its famous techniques with the Kogusoku (which are now called Koshinomawari.)"

Takenouchi Hisamori, after being enlightened by the god Atago, created the base of the ryu in 25 omote kata, which are known as the koshinomawari. Therefore, one cannot say they learned Takenouchi ryu without mastering the Kogusoku Koshinomawari.

Legend recounts that Atago, disguised as a Yamabushi, broke Hisamori's 2-shaku 4-sun bokuto in two and said "The long sword is no good for fighting" and taught him the kata of the kogusoku (short sword). The kata has remained in the ryu since the year 1532.

In the Kogusoku Koshinomawari kata, both opponents use 1-shaku 2-sun Kodachi. They first start in the "zaai" (seated) posture then go to kumiuchi, techniques designed around attacking– the opponent with the kodachi.

Kumiuchi generally referes to armor, but there are kata for dealing with bare-handed and tachi (long sword) wielding opponents."

Hope that helps!! Mekugi 16:54, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Founder's name

Someone also needs to double check the founder's name, which I think should be Futagami Hanosuke Masanori, and not Futagami Hannosuke Masaaki. Bradford44 18:46, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Masanori is a mis-reading/mis-pronunciation of the name Masaaki. The founder's name appears in several other Japanese documents which concur this plus it matches the phonetic patterns of speech at that time (the edo era) just as one can trace words back to the times of Shakespeare and his pronunciations. The name was misread, it found its way into print and for lack of any type of research, it stuck. Mekugi 08:27, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Citation Needed

It was brought to my attention that in the first paragraph a citation was missing. I attempted to add that citation utilizing Shitama Sensei's web site as a reliable source while adhering to the wikipedia guidelines. There is no more reliabe source regarding Sosuishi-ryu Jujutsu than Shitama Sensei. Shitama Sensei IS Sosuishi-ryu Jujutsu. In several spots on Shitama Sensei's web site he refers to his familial Ryu as Sosuishi-ryu Jujutsu. Shitama Sensei absolutely does not refer to Sosuishi-ryu Jujutsu as "Sosuishi-ryu Kumi Uchi Koshi no Mawari, as these are the components of the ryu, not the name.

I'm sure that there will be those who would like to debate this. You can post here or contact me directly at toobills@aol.com

Bill Williams Sosuishi-ryu Jujutsu Kai

Let me try to get you to reason this out and see if you can understand where I am coming from on this. The name of the School, in a simple, spoken manner, is Sosuishi ryu. See here: http://www16.ocn.ne.jp/~sekiryu/jdouzyou.html It's the first set of Kanji in brackets under the pictures. Now look a little further down and see this: 柔術（組打）と居合術（腰之廻）Jujutsu (Kumi Uchi) to Iaijutsu (Koshi no Mawari) (the "to" means "and"). So, you are right, the components are Kumi Uchi and Koshi no Mawari. However, there is something being drastically missed here. Allow me to point out that these same components are usually listed as part of the old school name on the scrolls found in Fukuoka and in Tokyo. In the modern-era, the full group name of the Sekiryukan Hombu is Sosuishi ryu Jujutsu Kai, which dates from the mid 20th century (during the 1960's, as you know). So, this is really about old vs. new. They are the same thing, right? So it really doesn't matter as long as it is explained. It's not something to put yourself through a ringer for.

One is the older, formal name of the school and the other is a new, colloqual name *but* they are pointing to the same thing, more or less. As the Koshi no Mawari and the Kumi Uchi are extensions of one another coming from Takenouchi ryu (which can also be written/pronounced Takeuchi ryu), they were probably summarized as "Jujutsu" for a modern audience in the 20th century.

For example, in the speeches given by the members in Fukuoka at the Sekiryukan's anniversary, they all said "SosuishiTSU-ryu," very, very clearly. The reason for this is simply a modern pronunciation issue. The modern is SosuishiTSU-ryu and the older is Sosuishi-ryu and that's all, no big revelation there. The kanji stay the same. In a way, the same goes for the full, old name Sosuishi ryu Kumi Uchi Koshi no Mawari- but it is not a matter of pronunciation or colloqual speech patterns when it comes to the added, new term: "Jujutsu". In fact I have reason to believe that this came about during the time of -or- just after Aoyagi Kibei, who re-wrote many of the scrolls of the ryuha and added Judo techniques into the curriculum during the late 19th and early 20th century.

For proof of the old reading "Sosuishi Ryu Kumi Uchi Koshi No Mawari", please read the name of the ryhuha listed under the picture of the makimono on the very front page of the Japanese version of the website. (For easy reference you can see it here: http://www16.ocn.ne.jp/~sekiryu/jindex.html). Notice that the caption reads:　双水執流組打腰之廻(伝書) "Sosuishi ryu Kumi Uchi Koshi No Mawari (densho)". If these were mere components, the caption would be "Sosuishi ryu -no- Kumi uchi -to- Koshi no Mawari (densho)" or "Sosuishi ryu's Kumi Uchi and Koshi no Mawari (scrolls)". The reason for this is because in fact this is the proper, old, academic name of the school and it is why it is listed in the book Sekiryukan no Chosen and the name written on scrolls written over 150-200 years ago. It is not really a subject of any debate here in Japan, I can assure you. Furthermore, I feel it is safe to believe that this is regarded as a very low-brow subject of argument by Shitama sensei and a cavil of people outside of Japan. So, there's really no argument here...just a matter of explanation. Kudos! :)

Mekugi (talk) 17:15, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Bill,

The book "双水ノ流" or "Sosuishi no ryu" was hand-written by Shitama Shusaku (Shuzo)in Showa 16 (1941) as an archive of densho the Sekiryukan had collected over the ages. The original is, in fact, still kept at the Sekiryukan today. The formal name "Sosuishi-ryu Kumiuchi Koshi no Mawari" appears in there on at least three occasions as the name of the school.

On the first line of page two of "Sosuishi no Ryu", the title is "Sosuishi-ryu Kumiuchi Koshi no Mawari lineage".

Then, on the last line of that page, the text reads as follows:

"Futagami changed the name of Futagami-ryu to Sosuishi-ryu Kumiuchi Koshi no Mawari".

Another instance of the exact name occuring in "Sosuishi no Ryu" is in the Densho lists of the 11th inheritor, Shitama Yagoro Munetsuna. In this section several of his menkyo from a variety of ryu are listed, the final one is entitled "Sosuishi-ryu Kumiuchi Koshi no Mawari," given to him by Shitama Muneaki (the 10th inheritor).

Then, as an outside source of where this name is used (again), the famous book published by the Takeuchi-ryu (the formal name of that the ryu being Take<no>uchi-ryu Kogusoku Koshi no Mawari <竹内流小具足腰之廻>) you have "Sosuishi-ryu Kumiuchi Koshi no Mawari" clearly printed as the formal name of the Ryu on page 278.

See here:
page 278

Truly,

Mekugi (talk) 07:30, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Please Keep this Area Clear for Mekugi's Discussion on the Article, Opposing Views will be Deleted

Please read the Misplaced Pages guidelines.

Also, see these articles about defamation and personal attacks:

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Libel

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks

"Mekugi":

Sosuishi-Ryu is a living art. One does not need to translate scrolls or conduct an archeological dig to find out what it is called. The name of the ryu is whatever Shitama Sensei decides to call it. It is HIS familial ryu. As for your analysis of the various scrolls etc., I am confident that Shitama Sensei can read Japanese pretty well. He is also able to interpret nuance and context to determine the writer's intent.

Randy Cantonwine

RC&RB (talk) 14:37, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

"RC&RB" :-)

Okay...let me get this straight. You are saying that the name "Sosuishi ryu Jujutsu" is one that Shitama chooses to use today, in the present, correct? Does the article not reflect that?

Mekugi (talk) 15:44, 26 May 2008 (UTC) Mekugi (talk) 15:44, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Russ,

Are you kidding me? Where's the rest of the posts? Perhaps you should re-read wikipedia's guidelines again, and apply it to the disrespectful posts you initially wrote. I cannot even keep up with you additions and subtractions to this debate. I'll post my original entry since everyone will be able to see how foolish, and one sided the "DEBATE" is becoming.

Here it is...get ready to edit what you want out of it you coward.

Let me remind you, that you are the one who chose to discuss this in an open forum. Of course you removed my post. It contradicts your self-serving conclusions, and flawed research. I stated information that I have received first hand from those who are significantly my senior, and who are experts on Sosuishi ryu. I also tried to clarify Shitama Sensei's position for you in hopes to correct your inaccuracies.

Removing my post is consistent with your continued inappropriate behavior, lack of knowledge, and integrity. To then post that audacious, condescending, scolding post on the board about my having to behave myself just further illuminates your level of hypocrisy as well as disrespect to your senior (both in age and Sosuishi-ryu). This is consistent with the behavior of your low graded group in Tokyo. This is why your web site has been removed from the Sekiryukan web page for cause. Furthermore, I'm not surprised, as I have a collection of incorrect online statements, and outright lies you have posted over the years. Let me know if you would like them posted, (in whatever forum you choose), for you to dispute, or further explain. Your behavior reminds me of something that I was taught many years ago (long before you began training), "a student of Budo should strive to remain humble and readily admit their lack of knowledge. Children brag, and behave like experts." This is a lesson that applies directly to you and your group of low graded "experts".

Misplaced Pages guidelines state that the discussion page is the appropriate forum for resolving inaccuracies on this scholarly site. It is apparent that you are less interested in fact and scholarly debate, instead you seem more interested in promoting your own biased agenda. I also noted that you ignored my suggestion to involve Fink Sensei in arbitrating your disagreement with my continued corrections to your inappropriate behavior and flawed conclusions. It’s consistent since you also ignore Shitama Sensei and his position on this matter as well. In addition I can see that you now omit any other entry that directly contradicts your own.

Let me just state this as clearly as I can. Shitama Sensei IS Sosuishi ryu. He specifically has said that the name of his familial ryu is NOT Sosuishi ryu kumi uchi koshi no mawari. It is JUST Sosuishi ryu, as those are components of the ryu, and NOT part of the name.

I’m going to regret trying to simply explain this again…., however, I think where your train comes off the rails is that you are trying to interpret Shitama Shusaku Sensei’s intentions by something he wrote in 1941. Shitama Manzo Sensei is a direct student of his father. I’m sure he knows a little bit more about his father’s intentions than you do. Despite my giving you the benefit of the doubt, I am starting to realize that you actually believe that you know more than Shitama, Manzo Sensei about Sosuishi ryu. I continuously read explanations from you about what past inheritors intentions were, as if you have somehow spoken to them. You refuse to acknowledge the position of Shitama, Manzo Sensei regarding his familial ryu. Your lack of acknowledgement of Shitama, Manzo Sensei’s wishes, is also evidenced by your omission of his photo on the article page as if he doesn’t exist. But again we get to the root of the problem. For example, it’s been made very clear on your other site that your Sensei prefers saying Sosuishi ryu, as does Shitama Sensei. That should speak loudly and clearly to the entire dojo. But in direct contradiction his students prefer Sosuishitsu ryu. It’s the tail wagging the dog and displays the lack of understanding of Budo. This is what happens when low graded students are left on their own, without correct guidance from a qualified Sensei. They may learn basic waza, but they never fully understand Budo. It’s endemic in the martial arts, and it’s reflective in your inappropriate behavior. We have allowed you to continue your childish, inappropriate, behavior to continue for years. You sit and pontificate as if you have some hidden knowledge, or expertise. You post video demonstrations of yourself that look ridiculous, and display the waza consistent with a beginner, while trying to pass yourself off as some sort of highly graded expert. We have attempted to correct you privately on numerous occasions. Again, you brought this debate out in the public. I will make sure you are called on every inaccuracy and outright lie you post online, or otherwise.

I considered re-posting my original entry, as well as deleting yours. I choose not to sink to your despicable, cowardly tactics. I believe in freedom of expression, especially in a scholarly debate. In a scholarly debate their usually exists another objective party so for me, it’s beginning to be like trying to reason with a four year old. I also realize my post is archived, (as is your disrespectful reply), and is still readily accessible to those who wish to read the truth from a qualified student of Shitama Sensei, Fink Sensei, and Sosuishi ryu. It is my hope that others can see through your biased, self serving, flawed conclusions. Like most of your contributions to these types of forums, they serve only to further bolster your agenda. Perhaps you should train more with a qualified Instructor, and write and "research a little less". You may be shocked to find that you may learn something.

You are a fraud, and just another blow-hard coward behind a keyboard. You refuse to even acknowledge another view, even from those who are significantly your senior and have more experience and knowledge regarding the topic. You look childish and will subsequently remain ignorant.

Bill Williams —Preceding unsigned comment added by Toobills (talk • contribs) 15:58, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

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