Revision as of 04:05, 28 May 2008

Welcome to wikiquette assistance
Wikiquette assistance is a forum where editors who feel they are being treated uncivilly can request assistance. The goal here is to help all parties in a situation come to a mutually agreeable solution. It is designed to function via persuasion, reason, and community support, rather than threats or blocks. Your first resort should be a polite attempt to discuss the problem with the other editor(s). No binding decisions are issued here. If you seek blocks or bans, see WP:ANI instead. Sections older than 5 days archived by MiszaBot II. Click here to purge this page (For help, see Misplaced Pages:Purge) Shortcut WP:WQA Please notify any users involved in a dispute. You may use {{subst:WQA-notice}} to do so.
Search the Wikiquette archives Additional notes: Before posting, see that you've made every attempt to follow the advice at Guide to avoiding disputes. Consider the helpful advice here and see the dispute resolution process. Include diffs that show the situation. See the Simplest diff guide for help. The conduct of all parties will be taken into account. Assistance may involve suggestions for altering your own behavior to avoid conflict. Volunteers are welcome. See the volunteer instructions.
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Active alerts

Ned Scott

User:Ned Scott is making comments which breach our policies and guidance. , , , , I have tried to raise the matter with the user, but it is escalating the issue, User talk:Ned Scott#Civility and personal attacks. Hiding T 12:14, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I apologized for the edit summary one, and even stopped editing after I made it, realizing I had gotten to heated about it. The last one, , doesn't break Wikiquette, so I don't even know why you mention it. As for the other two, I'll agree they broke Wikiquette. I probably shouldn't have said the "fool" comment to you, Hidding, but I stand by my "bullshit" comment to Vassyana. I don't know what you think posting here will do about any of this. -- Ned Scott 12:21, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

In the last one you state "Don't act stupid". That doesn't seem to assume good faith. I hope posting here will garner outside opinion on the issue. Hiding T 13:00, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I offer my observations and a suggestion. Vassyana is working on some policy debate which I won't get into, but which is clearly intense for several interested editors. Ned Scott I think has spoken in haste and realises it now. I am satisfied by his apology here and I think Hiding should be too, and not press this complaint further. To you Ned Scott I point out that certain words you have posted are uncivil and could be removed without any loss of the useful points you make. I suggest that you do exactly that. I don't see any policy to hinder one from applying WP:RPA to one's own posts, and to do so would certainly regain for you a high moral ground (and incidentally respect from me). Your good nature will doubtless guide you in this decision. Here is a specific list of the words that you surely can excise:

Bullshit. Thanks for making the situation worse, and sticking your nose in a situation you don't even understand.

Damn it, Pixelface, the adults would like to have a nice conversation now, could you please knock off all the nonsensical ranting.

..you guys have your panties in a bind because..

Jebus people,..

You don't go acting like a fool like you did and remove sections of policy because you're having your period.

Don't act stupid, Percy, you know full well...

It's like you're one of those typo nazis... Cuddlyable3 (talk) 17:51, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Cuddlyable3. These are the points I am trying to get across, but perhaps not doing so as well. I am indeed happy with the apology. All the best, Hiding T 09:36, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I was going to start a thread here regarding Ned Scott's recent comments but I see this one is open already. In the past three days, Ned has made comments like:

• 21:16, 13 May 2008 (UTC): "If you guys want to freak out because of some recent discussions on this particular talk page, then get a grip. Misplaced Pages is more than this talk page, and that section doesn't suddenly lose support because a hand full of Wikipedians have their panties in a bind."
• 21:24, 13 May 2008 (UTC): "We owe it to the project to consider things beyond this talk page, and to not be so shallow that we flip out right away because of some recent discussion where some people got all pissy."
• 04:08, 14 May 2008 (UTC): "Your interpretation that he can't start a section heading is moronic"
• 04:12, 14 May 2008 (UTC): "And for the love of god, the entire point of his restriction was to make him take these issues to the talk page."
• 06:18, 15 May 2008 (UTC): "Jesus, what's wrong with you?" and "You have no clue about TTN, do you?"
• 11:34, 15 May 2008 (UTC): "I'm sorry you guys have your panties in a bind because there's some users who don't apply things from WP:NOT correctly, and misunderstand what it says. Jebus people, that's been a problem for every single WP:NOT entry"
• 11:39, 15 May 2008 (UTC): "I'm going to start a list of every time you say something so mind-blowingly stupid and false. Do you think the protecting admin gives a crap about the dispute?" and "Damn it, Pixelface, the adults would like to have a nice conversation now, could you please knock off all the nonsensical ranting."
• 11:43, 15 May 2008 (UTC): "You don't go acting like a fool like you did and remove sections of policy because you're having your period."
• 13:02, 15 May 2008 (UTC): "Let me repeat something, since you are having such a hard time understanding it" and "And on a side note, it is shameful the way you are campaigning to drive TTN off the project because of what amounts to a content dispute. Who's next? Will you be supporting a bogus block on me if it suits your needs?"
• 04:08, 16 May 2008 (UTC): "You guys don't even know what you're talking about"

I understand that Ned thinks TTN's recent block was completely unjustified and that Ned has a different interpretation than me of the restrictions imposed on TTN. And I understand that Ned supports keeping WP:PLOT in WP:NOT while I support its removal. I can understand it if he's frustrated. But I think comments like "I'm going to start a list of every time you say something so mind-blowingly stupid and false." and "Damn it, Pixelface, the adults would like to have a nice conversation now, could you please knock off all the nonsensical ranting." are absolutely uncalled for and are a breach of the civility policy as well as the no personal attacks policy. In the past I have said I was happy to have Ned as a fellow editor and fellow human being, but he has lost all the respect I have for him with his latest remarks. --Pixelface (talk) 07:58, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

• Note, many of these comments are already being dealt with above. I'm not sure we need to quote the full text of the remarks, I believe diffs are all that is necessary. Ned has already apologised above, so I think we can leave it there? Hiding T 09:36, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Apologized to whom? --Pixelface (talk) 18:52, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
    • To the community. -- Ned Scott 04:41, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
      • And I stand by most of those above example comments you've listed, Pixel. Most of them are examples of frustrations, but are not necessarily uncivil. Regardless if you've lost all respect for me, I still have some respect for you. Life isn't so black and white that we have to hate someone just because of a few disputes. -- Ned Scott 04:45, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
        • I don't hate you. I said I no longer respect you. If you don't think those comments are uncivil, I don't know what to say. And the only thing black and white about this is you acting like Jekyll and Hyde. --Pixelface (talk) 11:45, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Ned Scott I represent the community that you claim to have apologised to. The Misplaced Pages community can tolerate an occasional expression of "bullshit". It can not tolerate the collateral damage you are causing by sustained incivility viz. the examples we see above. Your intemperate speech deters people from joining a discussion where you take part. That, and not anyone's "hate" that you may imagine, will be the reason for likely administrative action to block you for a while from tainting Misplaced Pages further with your "frustrations". (I am not an administrator.) Cuddlyable3 (talk) 20:19, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

You mean the lynch mob after User:TTN? I don't believe I would feel bad at all if I deterred someone from joining in and attacking a good editor. It really is shameful to try to drive someone off the project because of a content dispute, and that is something that should be said. -- Ned Scott 06:27, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

User:AtonX versus User:CoolKoon

User:CoolKoon (sk:User:CoolKoon) repeatedly posts attacking comments following his ban on the Slovak wikipedia due to his vandalising and aggressive behaviour. He has been banned by me for 2 hours for aggressive and threatening comments, to which he responded with more aggressive and attacking comments against me and other editors and administrators. This resulted in his repeated banning by another administrator on sk:Misplaced Pages. Now he posts abusive comments on my talk page on the en:Misplaced Pages. I have removed his first attack from my talk page, which he immediately reverted for the abusive comment to reappear. His personal attacks have been dealt with on the Slovak Misplaced Pages and I seek that this recurrent issue be addressed on the English-language Misplaced Pages as well. --AtonX (talk) 10:25, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I have never attacked AtonX on the English Misplaced Pages. Unfortunately the Slovak Misplaced Pages has many administrators which seem to have an anti-Hungarian POV and view any of their moves as a personal attack. I was treated with hostility on the Slovak Misplaced Pages ever since I came there despite the fact that I've been trying to discuss my difference of opinions with MarkBA in an objective and calm manner. CoolKoon (talk) 10:44, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

It will difficult to find someone who can help mediate here, since the comments in question are not in English, heh... One suggestion I might have: If the problem is restricted to comments left on AtonX's talk page, might I suggest that you two agree to just not edit each other's talk pages? --Jaysweet (talk) 18:00, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok. Agreed. CoolKoon (talk) 18:37, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

CoolKoon' ban on the Slovak wikipedia is classifying AtonX as Slovakian administrator.CoolKoon has done lots of valuable works here and on the Slovakian wiki. But I am thinking of AtonX that He is an ultra agressive vandal and his prejudiced complain is an Hungarian ethnic slander. Otherwise the Slovakian wiki is a very low standard website.Nmate (talk) 20:18, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Let's not muddy the waters. CoolKoon has agreed not to leave comments on AtonX's talk page. I am just waiting for AtonX to respond, and if he says that's okay, then this is resolved, and there is no need for further finger-pointing. --Jaysweet (talk) 20:26, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I have never edited CoolKoon's talk page, except notifying him of this alert as required by the procedure. I also do not intend to edit his talk page in the future and I wish that he himself removes his last comment from my talk page. I have never participated in any discussion with him or with Nmate on any other talk page on any other subject either, and hence I strongly object to Nmate's blatant accusations. (As for valuable work of CoolKoon on the Slovak wiki, let it speak for itself - sk:Special:Contributions/CoolKoon: 33 edits total, 3 in main namespace, 1 in talk, 3 in user, 21 user talk, 5 template, 2 moves, and two bans for threats and extremely rude personal comments). --AtonX (talk) 13:14, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

AtonX, you have control over your talkpage here. Feel free to delete anything that you want, at any time (the only exception is if an administrator places an official message of some type). If CoolKoon reverts you again, his account access will be blocked. --Elonka 17:08, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

CoolKoon posted his attacks while he was under editing restrictions from ArbCom's Digwuren case. He was put under restrictions by User:Elonka on April 18, 2008. The restrictions explicitly say: "The restriction shall specify that, should the editor make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, he may be blocked for the duration specified in the enforcement ruling below." CoolKoon comment was not exactly civil. He called another editor a "pussy" and two editors "stupid" (see for his original comment in Slovak). Another possible breach of the Wikiquette happened on this very page, when User:Nmate called User:AtonX "an ultra agressive vandal" and his legitimate complaint here a "Hungarian ethnic slander". Nmate is also under editing restrictions from ArbCom's Digwuren case and he is not supposed to post uncivil comments. Tankred (talk) 15:37, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

A thread on this has also been started at User talk:Elonka/Hungarian-Slovakian experiment#CoolKoon. --Elonka 16:09, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Dear Elonka, please do remove the thread about this Wikiquette alert from your User talk:Elonka/Hungarian-Slovakian experiment page. CoolKoon has been banned by me for two hours and by another administrator for six months on Slovak wikipedia for his threats and extremely rude personal comments. Nobody ever investigated the nationality or ethnicity of the persons involved and this has nothing to do with ethnic debates whatsoever. --AtonX (talk) 18:41, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Ah, the page isn't just about ethnic disputes, it's also about "situations of interest to both Hungarians and Slovakians". So it has elements of being a Cooperation Board or WikiProject. And you are very welcome to join. It would be very useful to have another Slovak viewpoint, especially of someone who's an admin at SK. :) --Elonka 01:34, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

As I've mentioned before, many people on the Slovak Misplaced Pages (including some administrators) openly agree with the views of the extremist far-right party SNS and it's leader Jan Slota's "doctrine" who famously said "Hungarians are a tumour on the body of the Slovak nation, which must be removed without delay." (See this: although my translation is more accurate. The original quote in Slovak: ). Had I known this before going to the Slovak Misplaced Pages I would never set my "feet" there. It was a mistake I've utterly regretted. I won't write to the talk page of AtonX or anybody else who is in connection with him anymore. I want to end this for now and forever. Period. CoolKoon (talk) 19:31, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

If the two editors will voluntarily stay out of each others' way, I think we should allow User:CoolKoon to continue editing here. Knowing that someone has been blocked on sk.wiki is not the same as knowing the grounds for the block or being able to follow discussion threads (in Slovak) that led to the block. I hope they will avoid addressing remarks to each other in Slovak on enwiki, to be sure that there are no insults we can't understand. I agree that CoolKoon may be blocked if he addresses AtonX in any way. If CoolKoon finds himself needing to edit an article that AtonX has visited, it would be helpful if he would lave a note at User talk:Elonka/Hungarian-Slovakian experiment so that any negative interaction can be avoided. EdJohnston (talk) 21:25, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I repeat: Firstly—This is not, and it has never been, a debate on article content. I have never had any content dispute, not even any content debate with CoolKoon. Secondly—This is not an ethnic conflict; the nationality or ethnicity of anybody involved is irrelevant and has never been investigated, brought forward or even mentioned by me or any other admin at the Slovak wikipedia. This is purely an attempt to redress his repeated, extremely rude personal attacks which appeared on my talk page. CoolKoon's agreement not to edit my talk page is sufficient for me and for my side I consider this closed. Whether he by his rude comment on my page (as translated above) and Nmate by his comment against me on this page, violated their restrictions, that I leave for the admins to judge. --AtonX (talk) 23:34, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't go so far as demanding that CoolKoon needs to avoid all contact with AtonX. For example, if he were to post a conciliatory message or apology, that would be fine. But I do agree that he needs to cease any incivility. And I would also like everyone to focus on using English-language on the English Misplaced Pages. If someone's speaking in another language just to mask some rudeness, that's still a violation of WP:CIVIL. --Elonka 01:34, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Yuz Asaf

I posted worries about this page at fringe theories noticeboard. User:Dougweller came to help. Now a newly-created account User:NewYork10021 is throwing accusations at him. Itsmejudith (talk) 22:28, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Please provide links of where he has made such accusations. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:45, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

User: Daimerej

User:Daimerej appears to be User:Ewenss, who was banned for sock puppetry (he basically conceded it in the talk page of Trinity United Church of Christ. He is back again, and appears to be editing under that name and 74.233.86.145, as well as possibly 64.66.192.62. They're making identical edits, giving identical reasons. He has also behaved uncivilly on the AfD page of Joshua Packwood‎. Trilemma (talk) 22:37, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Any concerns you have about sockpuppetry should be voiced at Misplaced Pages:Suspected_sock_puppets, or to the administrator's noticeboard. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:50, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Personal Attacks, lack of Good Faith

User:GoatDoomOcculta recently made an edit to an article's talk page in which he made a thinly veiled accusation towards me editing with a conflict of interest (accusing me of being Tim Buckley, the author of the website the article pertains to). Seeing he was a new editor, I responded to his points, as well as asking him politely to refrain from making WP:AGF personal attacks against me both on the article talk page and on the user's personal talk page . GoatDoomOcculta then responded by not only making a more blatant, direct and clearly intentional personal attack against me on his talk page (which I was ready to simply ignore), but also copy/pasting that attack to the article's talk page . These accusations are unfounded, and I don't appreciate his attempts to damage my credibility as an editor.

(I had posted this on ANI due to the repeated nature of these accusations (albeit from different users), and the vandalism I've had to endure as a result, however after further consideration, perhaps WQA is a better place to start)--Thrindel (talk) 22:43, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

User:MegX

This user reverted several edits I made to Led Zeppelin articles on the basis of "vandalism." As a glance at the edits in question will reveal, this charge was patently false. I reverted her edits, encouraging her to discuss the issue on each article's talk page before deleting my edits. Then I sent her this message:

Misplaced Pages is a community that depends crucially on effective communication between editors. My edits were in good-faith and not vandalism; your claim of "vandalism" was a means of evading communication as to what you found objectionable about my edits. If you believe my edits were inaccurate or unsourced (although most claims in those articles about various Led Zeppelin songs sounding like earlier-recorded songs are not sourced, and logically so as one does not need an expert to determine that two songs sound similar), please start a discussion on the talk page as per wikipedia guidelines instead of inaccurately claiming vandalism.

Allon Fambrizzi (talk) 21:39, 22 May 2008 (UTC)Allon Fambrizzi

In response, she sent me the following message:

"although most claims in those articles about various Led Zeppelin songs sounding like earlier-recorded songs are not sourced, and logically so as one does not need an expert to determine that two songs sound similar" That is a patently false statement. Courts of law use musicologists to determine if a song sounds similar in structure to another song. Neither Traffic or Jake Holmes has taken the issue to court, therefore it is not fact. Misplaced Pages deals with facts not opinions. I have no intention on having a discussion with you because I believe by your edit history to be a sockpuppet. Don't deny it. MegX (talk) 00:55, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

What is important to note is that she made another groundless claim, that I was a sockpuppet, after her earlier lie that my edits were "vandalism" was exposed (again, this is all evident in the talkpages of the various articles.

It is appalling to me that respected editors within this community have become so uncivil and impolite. At no point did MegX assume my edits were in good-faith; rather, she disagreed with a claim I didn't even make in my edits (that these similarities in Led Zeppelin songs were legally actionable) and made personal attacks against me.

Allon Fambrizzi (talk) 08:58, 23 May 2008 (UTC)Allon Fambrizzi

and . Hearsay and opinion is not fact. You are passing off opinion as fact. At no point has your claims of plagiarism been tested in a court of law. Issues of copyright are determined in courts of law, not pages of an encyclopaedia. Please desist from passing of opinion as fact. MegX (talk) 02:37, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

MegX is correct here. Injecting unverifiable original research and opinion is the opposite of what Misplaced Pages is based on. In the case of Led Zeppelin, if there is some sort of documented court settlement regarding songwriting then that can be introduced as long as the proper references are in place. If there is no court settlement and no supoorting documentation then the content is personal pov and has no place on Misplaced Pages. Anger22 (Talk 2 22) 03:02, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Requiring a documented court settlement is very strict. There are published reviews of popular music which can be sourced, if found. I have not listened to the songs concerned; has anyone made an accusation of plagiarism? Cuddlyable3 (talk) 15:15, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

No. it's the original editor's personal pov. Even their added text is very "8th grade book report" style in trying to push their opinion into several articles without any supporting/verifiable/reliable sources. Led Zeppelin have a small number of court settlements connected to certain recorded tracks. And these are all documented in the appropriate Misplaced Pages articles with references. Most of the cases stem from lyrical similarities and not music. All of these other claims are just poorly written original research based on editor POV. And these contributions have been removed, and rightly so, by several editors trying to block any POV/OR from these articles.

I agree with the positions of User:Anger22 and User:MegX. Those songs that have already been covered in decades-old out-of-court settlements have already been well documented elsewhere. That's not in dispute here. What editor User:Allon Fambrizzi was doing was adding personal opinion/original research on other songs that have never been subject to a court case, so of course there would be no court documents on these. I have accessed online peer reviewed journals on popular music at our university the last hour and have not found any claims that back up some of the additions made by User:Allon Fambrizzi. HelenWatt (talk) 23:19, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I would just point out that substantive disagreement with edits does not justify MegX's earlier claims that I am a "sockpuppet" engaged in "vandalism." I did attempt to source these edits. And most of these edits were simply elaborating on thoughts that were already in the article. MegX was wrong to engage in unsubstantiated personal attacks, and should be reprimanded for doing that. Allon Fambrizzi (talk) 02:08, 25 May 2008 (UTC)Allon Fambrizzi

I can't argue with MegX's bizarre claims that I am utilizing "hearsay" and am not citing legal opinions (these standards obviously have never been applied to Misplaced Pages articles in the past!). I still maintain my original position that these edits improved the articles. I would encourage people to listen to the songs I have mentioned in the articles; this was not original research but rather, in most cases, elaborations on statements elsewhere in the articles. The unfortunate thing is that I likely would have to start editing under a different name if I wished to contribute to Misplaced Pages in the future as MegX has been blanket-reverting my edits on the basis of the fact that this screen name made the edits, without first establishing a community consensus on the talk pages of the respective articles. MegX has not gone through the proper procedures for settling disagreement on Misplaced Pages; the fact that she apparently has unlimited time to blanket-revert edits she doesn't like apparently wins out over reasoned discussion. Allon Fambrizzi (talk) 02:16, 25 May 2008 (UTC)Allon Fambrizzi

I would further encourage people to read the following post I made on MegX's talk page, which she has now deleted (it is the last one): . Allon Fambrizzi (talk) 02:19, 25 May 2008 (UTC)Allon Fambrizzi

MegX, please keep the following in mind in the future. If you feel that an individual is engaging in vandalism repeatedly (deliberate attempts to compromise the integrity of Misplaced Pages), then please make your concerns known at Misplaced Pages:Administrator_intervention_against_vandalism. Similarly, if you feel that an individual is engaging in Sock-puppetry, then as the policy states, please make your concerns known at Misplaced Pages:Suspected_sock_puppets. Remember, it is unacceptable for an editor to continually accuse another of egregious misbehavior in an attempt to besmirch their reputation. Concerns should be brought up in the appropriate forums. We're here to deal with impolite or difficult communications - not content issues. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:34, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

User:OhanaUnited uncivility

In this post User:OhanaUnited , who is administrator on Misplaced Pages writes about me "The image he attempted to replace with the already-featured is his own creation. Although there's no rule against being the nominator of your own image, but my gut feeling tells me he's trying to discredit someone else's picture so that his can showcase his image here. Also, at that time, his reason for demotion is "because I like this image better." These statements are false to say the least. I possibly could not try to discredit someone else's picture because both pictures in question were taken by me and I believe I have the right of the creator of the images like one on my own pictures better than the other of my own pictures. Let's say that User:OhanaUnited has missed the point. Anybody could be mistaken. Well user:catch-22 pointed his mistake out to User:OhanaUnited , but User:OhanaUnited has never bothered to remove his false accusations and never responded to user:catch-22. At that point I assume that comments made by User:OhanaUnited were made in a bad faith. I'd also like to point out that administrator OhanaUnited has deleted my polite message from his talk page with the edit summary: cleaning out some garbage, which IMO is more than uncivil and more than impolite. IMO administrator OhanaUnited should remove his false accusations from this post, should be issued a warning about his uncivilty and should be considered for de-adminship. BTW I would have notified OhanaUnited about me filing this alert, but I am afraid I cannot do it because he told me that he that his "gut feeling" told him he should "ignore me from now on".He even protected his talk page for few days. It seems to me that OhanaUnited relies on his "gut feeling" instead of relaing on the common sense. Thank you.--Mbz1 (talk) 17:59, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't see anything incivil or impolite here, and certainly nothing to suggest that his adminship is in question. He's within his rights to remove comments from his talk page, so you shouldn't be upset by that. It was polite of him to state that he has an intention of ignoring you, and gave a reason, rather than ignoring you entirely. While you may disagree, it's his choice. I'm not clear about the initial dispute concerning some image, so I won't comment on that. Ncmvocalist (talk) 04:12, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

• Thank you for your respond, Ncmvocalist. I'm afraid it was not helpful at all and I'm afraid you are not clear in anything from my initial post. Would you agree, if I say that removing message with edit summary cleaning out some garbage does not consider to be civil or/and polite? Would you agree, if I say that admin, who's protecting his own talk page uses his admin rights with the wrong purpose? Would you agree that, if he falsely blamed me in "trying to discredit someone else's picture" while talking about my own picture should at least remove his false statement from post? I also doubt that an admin, who could say he would ignore a user with absolutely no reason could be a good admin. Oh and btw IMO calling my post noise does not consider to be civil and polite either. May I please ask you,Ncmvocalist, if you are sure you are in the right place? --Mbz1 (talk) 14:46, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

• When I made the post at that page I hoped for the understanding. Instead I found harassment, and what was even much worse - stupidity. Indeed as Euripides said: "Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish" or like Martin Luther King Jr said: "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."I guess "Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege". Do you like the quote, User:Ncmvocalist. Sorry,I forgot you were going to ignore me. As Jewish Proverb says: "Don't approach a goat from the front, a horse from the back, or a fool from any side." I guess I'll let it go now. I am really tiered (=_=) to fight with windmills (read "to fight for the common sense on Misplaced Pages") --Mbz1 (talk) 16:28, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

• Oh, at last you've got something right (cannot believe it), Ncmvocalist,I want to get blocked. By the way may I please wish you and a friend of yours OhanaUnited to continue ignoring me. You're doing just great with that so far! And this was my last post here. From now on I am going to ignore both of you.--Mbz1 (talk) 18:36, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

User:Otolemur crassicaudatus

Recently, this user seems to have breached AGF/CIV/NPA a few times. Here he accused me of bad faith in an AfD that garnered a fair amount of support. Here he attacked my beliefs rather needlessly. And here, just today, he both accused me of bad faith (where none was present) and pointed to the fact that I'm a monarchist, which has nothing to do with the AfD in question, and even if it did, WP:NPA prohibits "using someone's affiliations as a means of dismissing or discrediting their views".

Additionally, also today, he made these remarks, accusing another established user who made an AfD nomination that drew a range of reactions of a "Bad faith nom by pro-America POV pushers... Misplaced Pages is not the place for pro-America misinformation mongering". While the user is entitled to his beliefs, such remarks are quite corrosive in their effect. Biruitorul 05:59, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

In this AfD, calling the nom "bad faith" was a mistake. My bad. I have changed the wording and strikethough the monarchist comment. , . Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 06:03, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate that. I don't make frivolous nominations either, but thank you for your apology. Biruitorul 06:23, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Fringe theory, soap box, forum, incivility

I was redirected here from the fringe theory notice board after posting a complaint about a certain editer who has broke about half a dozen policies not to mention the fact that he has some rather backward views. To get the full story as i have documented it please follow this link. I would appreciate your help on this, he has caused at least one editer I know well a lot of bother. Realist (Come Speak To Me) 19:03, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Please provide links or diffs to the incivility. Ncmvocalist (talk) 03:33, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Not sure if you meant this or not, but "backward views" aren't a problem, as long as the editor doesn't introduce poorly referenced, POV material in the article space or use the talk pages as a soapbox to discuss things unrelated to improving the article. Whether or not the person's views are "backward" is, by itself, irrelevant. -kotra (talk) 04:48, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Here the editer "CadenS" is promoting a fringe theory on talk pages that is actually quite offensive. He calls it the "Homosexual Agenda", which is a right wing way of saying "gays are plotting against the world". I have listed just ten examples below, there are many many more edits like this by the user. He called one user who is a member of the LGBT community "Heterophobic" for not agreeing with him. I know that the editer was very offended by the comment. Now being conservative and christain is fine with me, but this is going too far, i see these unhealthy ideas spouted on Conservapedia and honestly its dangerous.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 - im guessing "this" means homosexuality? 11 - and again, Caden has found another example of the "Homosexual Agenda", running wild in wikipedia

Sorry i couldnt get back to you sooner, my internet connection went down. Realist (Come Speak To Me) 15:14, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Caden has continued the dispute here. Accusing bookkeeper of starting a hate campaign against him. Realist (Come Speak To Me) 16:21, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Infact, this isnt a campaign against Caden, oh no, much worse. Its a campaign against heterosexuality seen here. Realist (Come Speak To Me) 16:24, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Please stop accusing me of "promoting a fringe theory", or of "soap boxing", or of being "anti gay", or of "prejudice" or all the other negative things you are accusing me of. I am doing no such thing. I never said "gays are plotting against the world", so please do not put words into my mouth. Please stop this nonsense of yours. I find what you are doing highly offensive and consider it a personal attack towards me. CadenS (talk) 21:13, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

• I've given him a warning and explained what was wrong with his conduct. If it continues, or he does not agree to comply with policy, let me know. Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:05, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
  • I will, prejudice doesnt die quickly so i dont think it will be long before i return, sadly. --Realist (Come Speak To Me) 17:11, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Please stop. Why are you doing this to me? Do you hate me that much? You don't even know me and we have never spoken before. Please stop making these false accusations about me. I do not appreciate it. Please leave me be in peace. CadenS (talk) 22:55, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I think these comments made by an administrater best sum up how tired we are with your behaviour. Realist (Come Speak To Me) 00:01, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Those comments were not appropriate. I found them personally offensive. As far as that religion bit, I have no idea where he's getting that from. Could you please leave me alone and please stop wiki-stalking me from one talk page to another. I don't understand what you are trying to do here. But I don't like it. CadenS (talk) 01:34, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Personal attacks and deletion of talk page postings

Thanks to whichever volunteers handle issues at this page, I hope you find your work rewarding.

I've been tolerating provocative rudeness by User:Ilkali at Talk:Gender of God for some time now. Mainly I've ignored it, and stuck to answering nit-picking challenges and Wikilawyering. Eventually, I worked out it was trolling of some kind and I shouldn't feed it. I gave notice of withdrawing from discussion and explained why.

Now, however, this user is actually insisting on removing a reply I have given as part of a very long standing discussion to another user, who is currently absent. I have given warnings and finally a 3RR warning. Personally, I'd rather the user just chooses to be more civil, and allow things that irk him to stand; but how can I continue interacting with another long standing editor on this page, if a third party deletes my replies? Or am I to understand I can edit talk pages as well as articles and delete comments I think are inappropriate?

It seems to me we need to be even more generous in what we allow in talk pages than we do in articles. Where would we be if people had the right to delete talk page posts they disagreed with? Does this user have the right to remove my comment here?

Sorry to trouble you, but I've spent a long time talking an important issue through with User:Andowney and we actually seem to be getting to the end of it at last. But now Ilkali has deleted my reply. :( Alastair Haines (talk) 15:50, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Unless I am missing something, you and perhaps User:Andyowney are misusing the talk page:

You are overlooking the point. I say: But what do we say at Wiki?. You say: That looks more like a sermon. What does? The second half of the last sentence. Were you to remove on such grounds, and then repeat that after objection. I would report you for uncivil and biased editing. Thanks for taking the trouble to follow the links, and for reading the disputed comment. If the last sentence is the only objection, I will count your voice as agreeing with retaining the post. Cheers. Alastair Haines (talk) 23:06, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

HELP!!!!! user:Toobills and user:RC&RB incivility, libel and harassment

Both have continually been uncivil, have posted libel/defamation of others (and myself) on Talk:Sōsuishi-ryū. Please look in the Revision history of Talk:Sōsuishi-ryū. Here:diff1; Here: diff2; Here:diff3 Here:diff4; Here: diff5 Here: diff6 And there are a few more that I am leaving out. I've tried to be as civil as possible, to no avail. This has led to continued insults and threats and it seems to be escalating. This has continued from e-mails sent to me personally at a prior date, threatening me from post user:Toobills and user:RC&RB stating that that any "posts I make at Misplaced Pages have to be approved by user:Toobills first". Now on here at Misplaced Pages, they are attempting to follow through with harassment, namecalling and general incivility. I fear it will turn into vandalism.

Mekugi (talk) 18:05, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Mekugi -- where are the personal attacks and insults? In the diffs you have provided, all I see is that the other users have written a very long discussion of the points in contention (which I don't understand at all, so you'll have to bear with me), and you reverted their changes. I think your reversion was inappropriate, unless there are personal attacks I did not see. The users in question did say several times that they thought you were incorrect, but I do not see the personal attacks. Could you help me out by saying what "insults" and "threats" you are specifically objecting to? --Jaysweet (talk) 18:41, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Attack based on falsehood from Guettarda

User:Guettarda recently claimed that I've "gone so far as to threaten to introduce pro-ID POV into articles that most people admit are pretty good" in an unspecified post at Misplaced Pages Review. The problem is that it isn't remotely true. I have made no such post, nor do I believe anything I've posted could be interpreted in such a way. As a result, I'm left with the conclusion that Guettarda's statement was a lie, and responded based on that.

The problem is, Guettarda has refused to retract the statement or prove it, and only removed the "observation" because it made me more than a little angry, which was "distracting from its purpose." I find the allegation extremely offensive, and do not want it to become a "fact" simply because Guettarda stated it and refused to retract the claim.

I was unfortunately not able to submit this earlier, as I was away for the holiday weekend. Does anyone have any suggestions? Sχeptomaniac 17:16, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd have tried discussing this with the subject of this Wikiquette, but I'm afraid I already know what he's capable of. Try AN/I - but be clear about what you want (he be warned or asked to retract the statement or whatever it is). Keep the length roughly the same as this, if not slightly shorter. Ncmvocalist (talk) 18:14, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. It seems like that may be necessary. I would like to get some more input before doing that, but I guess I'll probably submit it later today. Sχeptomaniac 20:28, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Stalking and Harassment

What can I do to get user Mdsummermsw to stop following me around and trying to falsely attach me to other accounts, IPs, etc (see their talk page and the Michelle Rodriguez Discussion Archive page)? It's getting really old that this person reverts practically every edit I do, constantly makes accusations, and when I try to resolve the issue peacefully on their talk page, disemvowel my words, leaving only their own (again, see their talk page). They're behavior of psychotic research trying to prove some point that I am various others is disturbing and disruptive and I'm tired of it. At this point it's stalking, harassment, and slander. I just want to edit articles accurately, I don't want to be stalked and harassed 24/7 by someone who lives on Misplaced Pages every second of every day and makes it their goal to declare withchunts for no other reason than ego boosting or lack of anything better to do. I tell them to stop stalking and they respond by MORE stalking. It's insane, pathetic, and highly disruptive. Hope you can help. Thanks. LBear08 (talk) 19:10, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I have not yet looked into the allegations of harassment and false sockpuppetry accusations, but the disemvoweling is wholly inappropriate, such as in this edit. It is not acceptable to refactor other people's talk page comments, even on one's own user talk page (you may delete comments on your own talk page, but not edit them). I have warned the user about that.

Regarding the other allegations, do you have any diffs you could provide? --Jaysweet (talk) 19:24, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

LBear08 -- do you deny that you and User:L8ear08 are the same person? The allegations of sockpuppetry do indeed seem to be accurate, unless you believe you are using multiple accounts in a way that is within policy. Mdsummermsw has done nothing wrong by pointing out that these two accounts are almost certainly operated by the same person. --Jaysweet (talk) 19:32, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Also, it looks like Mdsummermsw's disemvoweling was in retaliation for the same repeated behavior on the part of LBear08. That does not make it okay, of course, but the deeper I dig, the more obvious it is that LBear08 is the problem here. The only thing Mdsummermsw did wrong was a single retaliatory disemvoweling edit, which she has since reverted. Mdsummermsw is pretty much in the clear here.

Now the question is, why is LBear08/L8ear08 engaging in sockpuppetry and filing bad faith Wikiquette alerts? --Jaysweet (talk) 19:36, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

First off, Yes! While L8ear08 seems similar to my name obviously and all of that, *I* personally have never signed in as that to the best of my recollection. Even if say I'd accidentally created two similar accounts and somehow don't remeber it, the problem is that the L8ear08 account makes edits to pages like "list of famous bisexuals" and Bjork, two topics of which I have no knowledge nor interest and especially would not be editing. So how can that be me? I don't know what's going on with the L8ear08 account (glitch? copycat?), but I am LBear08 not L8ear08. If I'd forgotten to sign in then one of those IPs could be mine, but the rest can't all be mine for goodness sakes and I'm tired of being hunted and having someone on my back (who is not an admin) 24/7. I just want to contribute to a few pages in peace as best I can. I just want this person to DROP IT and move on. Look back at how long ago that sock crap was posted and look at today's date and this user is STILL going on about it. At what point does it become deemable as harassment?

Second, no. My disemvowelmeant was in retaliation to THEIR constant doing so over the last several days (see their talk page and notice how they've been at it for awhile whereas my disemvowelment I JUST did today to prove the point of how obnoxious it is. That user is only in the clear when they stop harassing me. At what point will they stop with the accusations and stalking? LBear08 (talk) 19:38, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd also like to add, all of this began b/c of a previous disagreement we'd had. Awhile later I decided I wanted to go back to that discussion page and remove my own comments as I had no desire for petty argument to remain up like that. I never should have sunk to their bickering level. So I removed my own comments. This user then decides it's their right and priveledge to dictate what I can and can't remove that I myself contributed (to a talk page mind you, NOT the article which I know cannot be edited like that). I simply was trying to demonstrate maturity and obtain peace and the user wanted all disagreements to remain, all of their baseless accusations to remain, etc. for no valid reason. I've attempted peaceful resolution and suggested he/she delete their accusations and I my retaliated comments. However, they refuse...and for no reason whatsoever. I simply want resolution and then to be left alone by this user. LBear08 (talk) 19:46, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Regardless of "who started it" with the disemvoweling, it will no longer be tolerated, and that goes for both users. I hope that much is clear.

I find it extremely hard to believe that User:LBear08 edited Michelle Rodriguez for the months of March and May, and that User:L8ear08 edited the same article for the month of April, and that this is all just a coincidence. But in any case, the other account does not appear to have been used to evade a block or to cause disruption, so let's just put that issue aside for now.

I did a cursory glance at each of your contrib histories, and I do not see any evidence of stalking or harassment. Regarding your complaint about deleting the comments from Talk:Michelle Rodriguez, Mdsummermsw is technically correct on this one. It is okay to archive old conversations on talk pages, but except for abusive or off-topic comments, it is generally frowned upon to remove discussions altogether. Those conversations stand as a record of the discussion and can be helpful for other users who are contributing to the article, so that they know what has already been discussed, etc.

That said, if Mdsummermsw agreed to let you remove the comments in question from Talk:Michelle Rodriguez, would you consider the matter resolved? While deleting conversations from talk pages is generally frowned upon, it is not unheard of, and if that will solve this problem I think that would be acceptable (if Mdsummermsw agrees, of course). --Jaysweet (talk) 19:56, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Of course. No more disemvoweling from me, I find it obnoxious as heck so I'd never want to do it again anyway. As for the user issue, you can believe whatever you'd like, but I am telling you that I am NOT and never have been user L8ear08. I have no idea what that user is about or doing (copycatting for kicks?) but it has nothing to do with me. Now as for the discussion pages, I would love that to be the resolution...for us to remove our interactions (or at least my own), but up until now Mdsummermsw has been completely uncooperative on that front and continues on about it hence my feeling of being stalked and harassed. If they would agree, that would be great. LBear08 (talk) 20:04, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay. Again, I see no evidence of stalking or harassment, and from a strict policy standpoint, Mdsummermsw is correct about not removing the discussion from the talk page. However, if it will make all the involved parties happy, I see no problem with making an exception to the standard policy and removing the conversation in question from Talk:Michelle Rodriguez. I have contacted Mdsummermsw and we will see if she is amenable to this solution. --Jaysweet (talk) 20:08, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

At the moment, I'm considering it. While considering it, I have again reverted LBear08's edits to the archive. - Mdsummermsw (talk) 20:22, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Fantastic. Well? LBear08 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 02:31, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

User:Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles

This user has been difficult, disruptive, and agressive in many cases. This includes deletion debates and talk page discussions. He also pushes his own point-of-view as fact that everyone should follow. Plus, he chooses to ignore policies he doesn't agree with. Also, this essay: User:Fresheneesz/Don't Destroy has been quoted by him in various deletion debates. He acts as if it's something people must follow, but it's an editor's opinion and the tag at the top of it clearly states: This is an essay; it contains the advice and/or opinions of one or more Misplaced Pages contributors. It is not a policy or guideline, and editors are not obliged to follow it. Also note: I was told to stay away from Le Grand, however it's a bit hard to do, when we edit and post in the same deletion debates. I don't see why I should personally stop editing many places, just because he started to take an interest in them. Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Video_games/Article_guidelines#Weapons... and Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Mammoth Tank (2nd nomination) are great recent examples of his poor attitude. He is anti-deletion, which would be fine in any other case. However he's pushing it to the extreme, and choosing to ignore all rules just to attempt to keep just about every article he has interest in. RobJ1981 (talk) 00:43, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

This AN/I discussion would be relevant. Jayjg 01:09, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

While my viewpoints are the opposite to LGR's, I think he is rather courteous and is certainly not worthy of a WQA report. Sceptre 01:17, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree. I feel that the discussion in the VGProj Guidelines talk page has been crossing over into tendentious editing, but I have not seen evidence of him breaking any civility policies. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 02:06, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Harassment

I'd have to say I am finding it hard to see this thread as anything other than harassment as per . I am not uninvolved so recuse myself form action. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:00, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I find it easy to take that at face value. RobJ1981 contacted me because he wanted to put in a wikiquette alert, and now I'm participating in good faith. Randomran (talk) 03:28, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Non-wikiquette problem

I cannot say this is a civility or wikiquette issue either. The only thing I can say is that RobJ1981 contacted me to add my comment, and so I'll offer it here even if it is not the appropriate forum. Le Grand has repeatedly dragged AFD debates off topic. The two most common off topic discussions is whether deletion should ever be used except for articles created in bad faith, and whether the notability requirement has enough consensus to actually be a valid requirement.

These aren't wikiquette issues, and I'm not sure an administrator should be concerned with them. But they are vexatious and make it difficult for other AFD participants to have an on-topic discussion. I frequently try to correct him and put him back on topic, but it ultimately just derails the discussion further. I'm sure Le Grand just thinks he's having a logical discussion about whether to delete, but more often than not it becomes an off topic debate about fundamental wikipedia policy that should take place at actual policy pages like WP:N, WP:deletion policy, WP:GNG, WP:RS, WP:SPS, and so on.

I honestly don't know if these disruptions constitute a violation of wikiquette. But I know that they are disruptive, even if these disruptions are grounded in Le Grand's good faith beliefs that the notability requirement is unjust and his strong belief against deletion even when articles breach fundamental policy, except for articles made in bad faith. While these are beliefs held in good faith, they are as disruptive as an American communist arguing against the constitutional right to property every chance he gets (or, if you prefer, a Soviet democrat arguing for democratic elections every chance he gets). He's entitled to his opinion, but his repeated choice to use the wrong forum is extremely disruptive for the dozens of editors who do agree with fundamental policy, and the hundreds more who are trying to learn and understand it. Randomran (talk) 03:28, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I too certainly can't act on this--as a friend of GRC though not always a supporter. GRC has opened a discussion at AN/I, , and that will be the place to continue the discussion. But it does look as if Rob has tried & may have succeeded in driving GRC off WP because he does not want to follow the injunction to stay away from him. And Im puzzled that Rr thinks AfD is not the place to discuss questions about keeping articles. DGG (talk) 03:36, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Please do not misrepresent my complaint. I have had many AFD disagreements. But Le Grand has caused disruptions by going off topic:

• to explain that the notability requirement is invalid and should be ignored
• that deletion is only acceptable for articles made in bad faith, not for articles that are non-notable or based on unreliable sources

These are disruptive because they (1) mislead others about fundamental policy and (2) drag a debate about an individual article into a debate about fundamental policy such as WP:N, WP:SPS, or WP:RS. I know his lack of respect for policy is grounded in good faith, but it does not change that it is disruptive. (And has nothing to do with RobJ1981.) Randomran (talk) 03:46, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

• As much as I wish to walk away, I have to say that calling disagreements "disruptions" is not merely uncalled for, but an unfortunate way of disagreeing with editors, if not insulting. Defending articles in AfDs that a good deal of editors created and edited in good faith, and that as the article traffic statistics indicate thousands of readers check monthly, is hardly "disruptive," especially because I have been consistent with closers plenty of times as seen at User:Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles/Deletion discussions and as admins who can see deleted contribs know, when I argue to keep articles, I usually make some effort to find sources and improve the articles as well. Should we call your delete at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Hattrick (2nd nomination) and defense of it even though it closed as a keep "disruptive" and against policies? Should your argument of "Strong delete and merge" at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Black Mesa Research Facility, which closed as no consensus, be considered a "disruptive" refusal to abide by the GFDL per Misplaced Pages:Merge and delete? What about Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Space trading and combat simulation games? You nominated it and it closed as keep, so does that make it a "disruptive" nomination? Because you made multiple edits to it, is that "unconstructive" participation or "harassment" of those who disagreed with you in the discussion? How about Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Block kuzushi, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Grand strategy game, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Escape the room, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/First-person adventure, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Tactical realism, or Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Xenogears Perfect Works? Those closed as keep or merge, so does that mean you keep nominating articles for deletion or argue to delete articles in defiance of policies and consensus? Should I take you to Wikiquette because you generally do not notify the creators of articles that they are nominated for deletion, because it is not "efficient"? What if I chastised your for not using edit summaries? The truth is I strongly disagree with you in many AfDs and you strongly disagree with me, but in some cases, they have closed as you argued and in some cases they have closed as I argued. Does that mean either of us is acting in bad faith or disruptively, not necessarily. Plus, if you really do not enjoy discussing with me, then why reply to me over and over as well? Discussions work two ways and I could not continue to discuss with someone if they just stop discussing with me. But that shouldn't matter as AfDs are a discussion and not a vote and I have any intent there it's to encourage editors to actually work through the issues concerning the article rather than to just make a list of deletes and keeps, which just looks like a vote and not a discussion. My hope was that by discussing with you we would come to some understanding and maybe even find a middle ground in which we could work together in a friendly fashion. I have tried that approach with others on the deletionist side of things and I usually engage editors in discussion when I respect them enough that I think it is worth discussing with them. I am deeply disheartened by what I see above as I thought maybe we would reach a point of understanding and end up finding somewhere we could agree and help each other out. I hate to say "never," so maybe that hope still remains even if I do think it necessary to leave for an idefinite, maybe permanent amount of time. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 04:05, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

If there is merit in this report, this still does not fall under WQA - take it to AN/I. Ncmvocalist (talk) 03:41, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

User:Bedford

Please see the medcab case. Xavexgoem (from medcab) referred me here as he was unsure the issue fit within the scope of medcab. I have sought a third opinion and the advice of numerous users and this is my last recourse before RfC/U. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Broooooooce (talk) 03:47, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I have to add my support for this alert. Its clear that admin Bedford has been violating WP:NPA and WP:CIV. He as also thrown around allegations of vandalism and stalking. This is particularly disturbing and certainly warrants community attention. Bstone (talk) 03:51, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages dispute resolution