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Appeal

"Karsenty's statements were defamatory" and " found that his claims had clearly been defamatory." I would suggest this be rewritten as "damaging" or some like adjective. The word "defamatory" is a legal conclusion (at least in the United States), and the conviction was overturned. Since I'm not fluent in French, I would like to verify the actual language used by the court before making any changes. Biccat (talk) 15:17, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I do have the advantage of knowing French, and if you read the linked Agence France-Presse story, it does actually quote directly from the verdict. The bit you quote directly reflects AFP's summary and key quotes from the verdict. Don't make the mistake of thinking that French law works like US law - it's a very different legal system! -- ChrisO (talk) 21:07, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I should add that AFP so far seems to be the only news outlet to have actually seen a copy of the verdict. Everyone else is either quoting AFP or the spin put out by the rival parties. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:12, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually, reading the linked AFP article (I assume you mean the one that appeared in Liberation), I don’t see that it quotes the judge saying it was defamatory – only that it was damaging (“incontestablement atteinte à l’honneur et à la réputation des professionnels de l’information”.) That it was “defamatory” appears to be AFP’s interpretation, or “spin”, as you will have it. Canadian Monkey (talk) 23:16, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

NPOV in light of the Karsenty verdict

There are now two versions for this story – each with equal footing in reality. One is the France 2 version and one is the Karsenty version.

NPOV demand that we "describe the controversy" which means the lead has to give the Karsenty/Shapira/Shahaf/Duriel version and not be based on the France-2 version (as the lead is now).

The lead must state up front that there is a possibility – not ruled out by a court which heard evidence in this matter – that the whole affair is a staged hoax by the TV cameraman who is the reporting journalist. The fact that the "reporting" by the Enderlin (an important part of the France-2 report) – who was not at all at the scene but rather added voice over hours later from his office in Jerusalem – this fact can not be overlooked. --Julia1987 (talk) 02:33, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Since the "hoax" idea is largely a fringe opinion, it does not have to be given anything of the sort. WP:UNDUE is, or should be, your friend. Tarc (talk) 03:43, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Not at all. It is a valid POV. Julia1987 (talk) 11:13, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

The developments of the case, have certainly made an impact in mainstream media which presents it as a valid POV and can no longer be described as fringe. Jaakobou 11:52, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

If a fringe conspiracy theory is mentioned in mainstream media it doesn't change that it's still a fringe conspiracy theory. Other examples include Elvis sightings or the Apollo Moon Landing hoax conspiracy theories. // Liftarn (talk)

I agree with Liftarn. I am sure he/she is referring to the "fringe conspiracy theory" that IDF killed Al-Dura - this was mentioned by the media (such as France 2 TV station). After review of the evidence the court declared that Karsenty's suggestion -- that Talal's footage is staged -- was not a "hoax conspiracy theory" --Julia1987 (talk) 17:18, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure that is what Liftarn meant. Regardless, the comparison to Elvis sightings and the Apollo Moon Landing hoax conspiracy theories is incorrect seeing that that just recently a French court declared that Karsenty's suggestion -- that Talal's footage is staged -- was not a "hoax conspiracy theory". Jaakobou 17:46, 25 May 2008 (UTC) clarify 17:48, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

The court said nothing about if it is a conspiracy theory or not, just that it is not alander to spread such theories just as it's not against the law to claim the Apollo landing was a hoax. // Liftarn (talk)

Well, to be exact, the court appears to have ruled that Karsenty was acting permissibly in the context in which he was operating (i.e. media criticism). The case has been badly misreported by many English-language blogs, which have claimed that the court backed Karsenty's views. There's nothing in the French-language reportage to support this. According to AFP, which apparently has a copy of the verdict, the court merely stated that "«l’examen des rushes ne permet plus d’écarter les avis des professionnels entendus au cours de la procédure» et qui avaient mis en doute l’authenticité du reportage." In other words, the judge said there was room for legitimate doubt, not that the supposed "staging" had been proved.

As for how widespread the "hoax" meme is in the mainstream media, I've done a comprehensive survey of this using Lexis-Nexis to review several hundred news outlets. Only two newspapers have supported it and then only intermittently - Canada's National Post and the Israeli Jerusalem Post. I believe I'm right in saying that they are part of the same group (formerly controlled by Conrad Black) so there may be a corporate reason why they've pushed the same line. However, no other English-language newspapers, nor any European news outlets, have supported the "hoax" line. It's still very much a fringe hypothesis. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:41, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree with ChrisO, that we can't call France 2's report a hoax. Despite multiple non-blog sources stating that it's pretty much improssible that Israeli soldiers shot the boy and the cameraman's "IDF was shooting at them for 45 minutes... we have secrets" theory being rejected by even more people; It has not yet been remotely proven, for Misplaced Pages Fringe purpouses, that the boy was not shot by the IDF. Current information situation requires both POVs being represented fairly.

ChrisO, on a side note, I think it's a bad idea to connect sources to former ownership suggesting they may have corporate reasons to report whatever they report. Even if this is correct, it might lead to people picking and choosing what sources they like/dislike based on urban legends and the material within the article being favorable/unfavorable to their personal perspectives.

With respect, Jaakobou 22:03, 25 May 2008 (UTC) minor adjustments 22:12, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I've made a quick search and came up with BBC and Haaretz reports on the controvesy. Al-Jazeera who calls it a "brutal murder" and add "Palestinian boy being killed by Israeli troops ... footage speaks for itself" (e.c. footage where source of fire is unclear and Talal shouts "the boy is dead" when it's clear that he's neither dead not hit) also reported on the controversy. Jaakobou 22:37, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

The best source would be an English translation of the actual verdict. --Julia1987 (talk) 12:16, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Just following up on what Jaakobou rightly says about fringe reporting, I'd like to emphasize a couple of points. First, this article is not, under any circumstances, going to state or insinuate a fringe conspiracy theory as fact. I'm not going to recap the whole of Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories, but having looked into the coverage of the story in some detail, I can confirm that as far as reliable sources are concerned, the vast majority - by a ratio of literally hundreds to one - do not support the conspiracy theory. As I said above, only two mainstream publications have actually advocated the conspiracy theory, as opposed to merely reporting it and attributing it to others. Second, because the conspiracy theory inevitably involves making or insinuating allegations against living people (Enderlin, the cameraman, the dead boy's father) the biographies of living people policy comes into play. This is especially critical given that the allegations have already been the subject of libel litigation. This means that we have to be very conservative about what we say, and very strict in terms of confining ourselves to fully reliable sources.

Some specific comments about the edits I just reverted:

1) "Muhammad al-Durrah and his father Jamal before the shooting on September 30 2000" was changed to "...as seen in the September 30 2000 shooting report." Clear intention here is to insinuate that the shooting was staged. Unacceptably POV.

ChrisO,

I had no intention to insinuate anything by changing the image caption and it would be best to assume good faith and discuss content rather than the assumed intentions of fellow editors.

I can understand your concerns though, and if you're interested in making suggestions - I'm more than willing to keep an open mind.

With respect, Jaakobou 14:02, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

2) A lot of sourced material was deleted from the lead for no good reason that I can see. I've restored it.

3) "... was widely shown in the media, but is now being challenged as doctored and possibly staged" is a rather obvious example of poisoning the well as well as violating Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories; the view that the video was "doctored and possibly staged" is, as already said, a fringe theory and this gives it undue weight.

4) "The edited film, consisting of 57 seconds out of 27 minutes of footage" is also poisoning the well as it doesn't bother to explain the context of this. It shouldn't be in the lead in the first place. Detailed context should be presented in the article proper; the lead is supposed to explain the basic facts.

5) "While Shapira's documentary concluded that the boy could not have been shot by the IDF, it affirms the accidental shooting and killing of Mohammed a-Dura's as real and not staged as claimed by others." Blatant POV, to say nothing of the misspelling. It's a statement of a personal opinion as fact.

Finally, with regard to Julia1987's comment that "Nothing on talk that justified this massive change. CJ first gather consensus for your view". Might I point out that the article has been stable for a long time, the only "massive change" is in fact the one that's just been reverted by CJ and myself, and the recent spate of edits has largely been down to Southkept/Julia1987 pushing a particular point of view. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:31, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Oops! Well now there are three! It is not a particular point of view but a dispassionate recounting of the facts.Tundrabuggy (talk) 05:20, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

There is now a court verdict that the "restored text" is not based on. There are now 2 versions and not as you try to present it: Claiming that one is the truth (France 2) and the other is WP:undue. see this: --Julia1987 (talk) 02:47, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

exactly so. Tundrabuggy (talk) 05:20, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

reminder:

"NPOV demand that we "describe the controversy" which means the lead has to give the Karsenty/Shapira/Shahaf/Duriel version and not be based on the France-2 version (as the lead is now)."

see this: --Julia1987 (talk) 04:28, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

You have not overcome the undue weight points by directing everyone to a single comment piece in a right-wing publication, even if it a mainstream newspaper. There appears to be a genuine dispute in mainsteam discourse as to who shot the boy - there is virtually no dispute, in any serious sources, as to whether he was killed. This article gives massive prominence to these bizarre conspiracy theories - until they are covered in more detail and afforded more credibility by serious mainstream news or academic sources, Misplaced Pages should stay well clear of them. I have tried to trim and revert the lead to better reflect this, but as it has for a long time, the article as a whole remains a pretty shoddy piece of work. Several editors have now as well pointed out that you cannot use the latest court ruling as justification for saying "see! it was all faked", or even for asserting that this version of events now has as much mainstream credibility as any other. That is to misunderstand and spin the court ruling. --Nickhh (talk) 11:30, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment - now that the media is picking up on recent developments, it would be best to stop dubbing the 'it was a hoax' perspective as "bizarre conspiracy". However, if anyone feels very strongly that it is indeed a fringe theory, WP:FTN would be the proper place to explore this. Jaakobou 13:57, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Julia has already cited the same WSJ opinion piece, two paragraphs up - that's exactly what I was responding to with my comments above. As I said, a mention in one comment piece (which doesn't even endorse the theory explicitly) does not mean it has suddenly shifted from the out-there fringe to the mainstream. And I will in any event continue to refer to it as a "bizarre conspiracy theory", at least on a talk page, until heavyweight evidence points the other way. --Nickhh (talk) 14:22, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, I'm not sure everyone would interpret "heavyweight evidence" in the same manner and it would help if you clarify your comment on what would, hopefully, help both sides of the dispute reach a consensus that works for everyone. Jaakobou 14:37, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I just added a NPOV tag in light of this ongoing and significant discussion. I have no knowledge of any of the facts and will likely not further contribute, but there seems to be a serious dispute as to the facts and how they and the dispute over the facts are being presented. The tag is totally appropriate under the existing circumstances. After all, this is Misplaced Pages, and Misplaced Pages is not required to perpetuate any media bias, if any. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 16:01, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

The Wall Street Journal yesterday had two articles on the topic of the possibility of the incident reported on this page being a hoax. That is how I became aware of the issue in the first place. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 16:04, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Exactly, they refer to the "possibility" of it being a hoax - as part of a comment piece on a recent appeal court verdict that has ruled it is not defamatory to suggest it might be. That's pretty weak. As of yet, no mainstream respectable source (in the media or academic world) has given any serious credence to the hoax theory. Given the number of people who would have to have been involved and are still keeping quiet about the fact that the boy is still alive today, this qualifies as a genuine conspiracy theory. Neither the court verdict or the low level reporting of it changes that. Having said that, I'm not going to argue with the NPOV tag because in my view the article as a whole still gives too much weight to the ramblings of conspiracy theorists. Oh and I've also made some small changes to the lead - most are just minor tidy-ups for language and repetition. --Nickhh (talk) 17:19, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Note also what Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources states: "Great care must be taken to distinguish news reporting from opinion pieces. Opinion pieces are only reliable for statements as to the opinion of their authors, not for statements of fact." (bolding as in original) Unless the authors have some sort of special expertise in the matter (they don't), their opinions carry no more weight than anyone else's. -- ChrisO (talk) 18:14, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

What is the policy of wiki in regard to posting links to actual video footage such as this at youtube?

10 seconds of raw footage not shown on France 2 (can also be seen on the end of Part II: 18 minutes of France 2 raw footage, Part I: Part II: Can we post such videos on the article page, and if so where? Tundrabuggy (talk) 01:39, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

How come ?

No link to Pallywood from this article ? --Julia1987 (talk) 07:22, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

still no answer here ? --Julia1987 (talk) 10:59, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Propaganda

According to the wiki def of propaganda it is not necessary for propaganda to be 'proved' true. True or false, the al-Durrah business has been used for propaganda purposes. Tundrabuggy (talk) 13:30, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Correct. --Julia1987 (talk) 02:42, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Houston we have a problem.

What I see here over the last week at that 3 editors CJCurrie, ChrisO and nickhh are editwarring their way to make the French court verdict a "fringe" conspiracy theory while keeping the hoax as the official version. On the other side I see some editors trying to maintain NPOV: They don't kick out the France-2 version al together but try to follow wikipedia policy and describe the controversy, say that there are two versions with equal standing (at least now after the French court ruled)

This effort by the trio edit-warriors (one of them violated 3RR) has many aspects: They insist keeping the initial verdict in the article (although the appeals court overruled it) they keep describing the "facts" as they were described by France-2. These are all attempts to function as a "self appointed gate keepers" to prevent the other side "truth" from being in the article while keeping their "truth" as the only version.

So wake up. There is no one "truth" there are now two versions and the edit warriors should allow the article to reflect the new situation.--Julia1987 (talk) 02:41, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment: I think we should avoid personalizing our conflicts. Commentary like "the edit warriors" or "Clear intention here" are not in the spirit of Misplaced Pages:Civility and we should take a step back and also possibly consider refactoring these comments a little so that we can prevent Erosion_of_critical_thinking. The golden rule, in my opinion, is "Comment on content, not on the contributor." (from the WP:NPA).

On topic: Personally -- after reviewing vast amounts of the most current information in this topic -- I feel that the shooting no longer has an official 'accepted-by-all' version as the case has had multiple mainstream medias report on the controversy without claiming Talal's version nor the pro-Israeli version to be the truth. I can't recall any reliable source considering either of the versions as the "official" one, now that the 18 minute video was presented. Talal's version is usually represented as "what was initially reported" or some other variation and the other version is usually presented without any prejudice for it being correct or incorrect. However, I can understand where ChrisO's concerns are coming from and believe this should be resolved on the "less involved" level of editors rather than with involved people -- who seem to be getting upset at each other for the gap in perspectives and the impasse it creates -- going head-to-head into WP:BATTLE.

On mediating the dispute: I can see where these comments (Julia1987 and ChrisO) are coming from and I believe that the head-to-head approach that has been going on here, esp. when editors who are not part of the discussion revert the article repeatedly, is unhelpful for a long term solution. It would be far better to open up concerns for uninvolved community inspection - such as opening threads on WP:FTN, WP:RfC, WP:MEDCAB (see WP:DR) - since the outcomes of such venues last longer than the results of "winning by numbers".

With respect, Jaakobou 07:20, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Julia, I suspect you haven't done much research on how reliable published sources have covered the case. As I mentioned earlier, I've systematically reviewed the press coverage of the case to determine the relative popularity of the various positions. The initial coverage supported Enderlin's view (and that of the Israeli army at the time) that al-Dura had been killed by the Israelis. The later unofficial Israeli investigation of the case produced a revisionist view, that al-Dura had been killed by the Palestinians. Interestingly, much of the press coverage since then has been equivocal, neither supporting the original or the revisionist view (or mentioning both or simply saying that the responsibility for the shooting was unclear). Finally, Landes and Karsenty came up with a denialist view, that al-Dura had not been killed and the whole incident was a hoax. This has not been supported by any mainstream news reporting; the only mainstream support has been a handful of op-eds from columnists in the National Post, Jerusalem Post and now the Wall Street Journal. The vast majority of the coverage - we are talking a ratio of hundreds to one - states either the original or the revisionist view, or is non-committal as Jaakobou has observed. Until the Karsenty case, hardly anyone paid any attention to the denialists.

In those circumstances, WP:UNDUE applies. To quote: "We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention as a majority view. Views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views. To give undue weight to a significant-minority view, or to include a tiny-minority view, might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute. Misplaced Pages aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation among experts on the subject, or among the concerned parties. This applies not only to article text, but to images, external links, categories, and all other material as well." Clearly, the Karsenty-Landes denialist position is a tiny-minority view, as far as mainstream coverage goes. Don't mistake the noisy agitations of bloggers for any kind of mainstream acceptance of the denialist position. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:13, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment is cheap:

1. I don't think Landes claimed the boy had not been killed are you certain about this?
2. Would be best to stop tagging Talal or Karsenty as "hoax"/"denialist". Even if Talal claimed the IDF shot intentionally at the boy for 45 minutes and that his office is hiding secrets from the scene, and even if Karsenty said that al-Dura had not been killed and the whole incident was a hoax - promoting your perspective by using WP:PEA/WP:WEASEL terminology only promotes the problem I just raised (under "However").
3. ChrisO, If I'm reading your comment correctly, I'm not sure editors here wanted to write "the boy is not dead" and it would be better for Collaboration to pay more attention to what Julia is saying rather than put words in her keyboard.

With respect, Jaakobou 08:42, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Julia - please stop claiming that myself and others are trying to make the Court verdict a "fringe theory", or are "edit-warring" when we are merely trying to keep nonsense out of this article. You obviously don't understand what the verdict means, despite people explaining it very carefully above. It was not an endorsement of Karsenty's claims, or a judgement that they represent the correct version of events, it was merely an endorsement of his right to make them, on the basis that they were not libellous. If you don't understand the difference, please go away and study the basic principles of libel before arguing the point here. And of course the facts of the initial verdict should stay in - otherwise we have no idea what ruling the Appeal Court verdict overturned. Even you I thought would understand that. The fundamental point, as explained above by Chris, is that Karsenty's version remains a fringe, minority view. The Appeal Court verdict does not change that, and accordingly the Misplaced Pages article on this subject should not give it any more weight than that. Maybe outside eyes would help explain this. As would someone coming in and explaining the WP:BLP policy to you - we are talking here about an issue which has of course been the subject of libel proceedings. --Nickhh (talk) 10:10, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

1. "I've systematically reviewed the press coverage of the case to determine the relative popularity of the various positions" - this is WP:OR.
2. "please stop claiming that myself and others are trying to make the Court verdict a "fringe theory" " - How can I stop this if this is what you claim ? If you stop claiming I will remove my comment.
3. "we are merely trying to keep nonsense out of this article" - please see: - quote: "None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being judged as "the truth", in order that the various significant published viewpoints are made accessible to the reader, not just the most popular one." --Julia1987 (talk) 10:52, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

1) Well not exactly, it's just observing the obvious and making the point on a talk page

2) Every point I made just sailed past you didn't it? Again - stop claiming I have described the Court verdict as a fringe theory. I have not. I have described - accurately - Karsenty's view as a fringe theory. They are two different and distinct things, all the more so because the Court verdict does not even say what you think it says. This is not hard to understand if you stop to think for two minutes

3) Sorry, I should have said "giving undue weight to nonsense". You are selectively quoting from policy (and as it happens, a different paragraph from the one you linked to), and even the bit you have quoted explicitly says "significant published viewpoints". That's the entire point. --Nickhh (talk) 11:22, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

(offtopic note to Nickhh:) please review Misplaced Pages:CIV#Considerations_concerning_civility. I know the project is in your best interests but it would be helpful if you avoid calling other people's relevant perspectives "nonsense". You could, instead, request for clarifications on why they believe their version to merit attribution and work within' WP:DR. Jaakobou 11:46, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Come on, if we were talking about flat earthism, Elvis sightings or at the extreme end Holocaust denial, nonsense would be a mild world; to me we're in the same ballpark with this one. And, very offtopic, while I appreciate your personality makeover (genuinely) I have to confess to feeling a little freaked out by the experience of you coming at me like some sort of Buddhist admin. --Nickhh (talk) 12:16, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

proportionately?

"All Misplaced Pages articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing significant views fairly, proportionately and without bias"--Julia1987 (talk) 10:58, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Proportionality is precisely the point ... --Nickhh (talk) 11:32, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Question - Is anyone willing to do the source work to assert their perspective on proportionality? Jaakobou 11:39, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Chris says he's done a lot of stuff on this. I haven't any formal evidence to present myself, but I read and watch the mainstream UK (and other) media, and it's quite clear where the relative proportionality lies. The idea that he is not even dead is never treated with the same weight as any other version in mainstream sources. Yes the theory needs to be mentioned in the article, including in the lead, especially in the light of the latest court verdict - but it is. So I don't see where the problem is. --Nickhh (talk) 12:21, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Round Earth, Sun revolving around earth rather than vice versa, all ideas that were "fringe ideas" at one time. Appeal judges have looked at the evidence and have decided that there is reason and logic around Karsenty's POV. It seems to me one needs only look at the raw footage films critically to see that it is more than likely a hoax. Tundrabuggy (talk) 12:59, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Neither a very general (albeit correct) assertion that some minority scientific views in the past have become the mainstream view later, or a claim that "to me .. it is more than likely a hoax" are actually really relevant. Sorry. We can only go on what mainstream reliable sources say, about this particular issue, at this point in time. --Nickhh (talk) 13:07, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

1. "Round Earth, Sun revolving around earth rather than vice versa, all ideas that were "fringe ideas" at one time." - so what ?
2. "It seems to me one needs only look at the raw footage films critically to see that it is more than likely a hoax." - this is WP:OR
3. "Appeal judges have looked at the evidence and have decided that there is reason and logic around Karsenty's POV." - This is the key issue. We shall rewrite the lead based on the new verdict.--Julia1987 (talk) 13:09, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

The lead already says about the verdict that "an appeals court overturned the previous verdict and ruled that there were legitimate questions about the authenticity of the reporting". I don't understand in what way you are proposing to "rewrite the lead". If you are going to change it to give equal weight to the Karsenty view that the shooting was faked and Muhammed al Durrah is still alive, as well as to the current mainstream reported view, that would be out of order and would also be your OR as to what the verdict actually said. For all the reasons explained ad nauseam above. --Nickhh (talk) 13:15, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Lead need to present both versions:

1. Shahaf/Karesnty
2. Talal/Enderlin

Both are at least equally valid and deserve equal space. We can no longer rely on any of France-2 words as "facts" . --Julia1987 (talk) 17:15, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

For the fortieth time, it does at the moment - but roughly in proportion to each of their relevance and due weight. In fact in my view it gives way too much article space to fringe theories about what might have happened, epsecially further down. And have you not even noticed that the Shahaf & Karsenty versions both appear to contradict each other anyway, as opposed to being the single joint alternative to the mainstream account? Shahaf's investigation concluded that Muhammad was killed (but by Palestinian gunfire) while Karsenty appears to suggest that he might not even have been killed at all and that the whole thing is a hoax. If you can't understand that, and are incapable of using definite and indefinite articles when you write content here, perhaps you could leave this article alone? Thanks. I am not going to debate this anymore either, as it is such a waste of time. But at the same time I (and many other editors) will not allow you to use this article as a posting board for conspiracy theories being cultivated in the blogosphere. --Nickhh (talk) 18:34, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I understand your frustration but remember not to bite the new users. And frankly you shouldn't criticize any user's grammar like that. Not a big deal but I know sometimes it is hard to notice that you've crossed a line so I think we should remind each other when that happens. --JGGardiner (talk) 22:41, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Analysing the intro for balance and due weight

Further to the above debate, here's the intro plus some added notes in italics, in a bid to clarify the point

Muhammad Jamal al-Durrah (1988-2000) Arabic: محمد جمال الدرة‎), was a Palestinian boy who became an icon of the Second Intifada when he was filmed crouched behind his father during a violent clash between Palestinians and Israeli security forces in the Gaza Strip.

The opening paragraph makes no judgement about who might have been responsible for his death. The only reference to him even having been killed is the fact that 2000 is given as the year of his death

Palestinian journalist Talal Abu Rahma filmed the father and son sheltering during a crossfire between troops at an Israel Defense Forces (IDF) outpost and Palestinian police and gunmen shooting from a number of locations. After a burst of gunfire, the two slumped into prone positions. Al-Durrah was reported to have been killed and his father severely injured by Israeli gunfire.

This second paragraph merely refers to the film showing them "slumped into prone positions". It then says Muhammad was reported (ie by Enderlin's voiceover) to have been killed by Israeli gunfire

The footage was made available by the French television station France 2 to other TV networks and was re-broadcast around the world and produced international outrage against the Israeli army and the government. Images from the footage became an iconic symbol of the Palestinian cause and al-Durrah himself was portrayed as an emblem of martyrdom; the footage was shown repeatedly on Arabic television channels and al-Durrah was publicly commemorated in a number of Arab countries.

The third paragraph then explains the impact of the footage (the lead as yet has made no definitive judgement about what precisely happened)

Although the Israeli army issued an apology for shooting al-Durrah, others later disputed the assumed sequence of events and whether the IDF were responsibile for the killing. They disputed the authenticity of the tape and questioned the honesty of the France 2 cameraman and reporter, the source of the fatal bullets, whether Palestinian gunmen had shot him rather than the Israelis and the identity of the boy in the footage. Some speculated that the entire incident had been faked with no actual casualties. Campaigners sought the reopening of the case but did not attract public support from the Israeli government or army. Instead, unofficial investigations were carried out that disputed the official account of the shooting.

The fourth paragraph points out that the IDF officially admitted responsibility - but that also other people publicly doubted this, with some even claiming he was not killed at all. That is, the alternatives are set out briefly

In 2004 France 2 sued the French commentator Philippe Karsenty, who had accused the channel of manipulating the footage and had demanded the firing of Charles Enderlin, the journalist who had produced the original report. An initial court ruling found the claims to be defamatory, however in May 2008, an appeals court overturned the previous verdict and ruled that there were legitimate questions about the authenticity of the reporting. France 2 has stated that it will appeal the case to the Cour de cassation, France's highest court..

This fifth paragraph then refers to the Karsenty court case and discusses the possibility that the incident was staged and/or the footage manipulated. That is, Karsenty's view is highlighted, as is the fact that the latest court verdict backed his right to make that claim

The lead simply doesn't take sides - it broadly reports the main issues as they were reported from 2000 onwards, and covers all the alternatives. Yes there is a genuine dispute in mainstream discourse about which side's bullets may have actually killed Muhammad (although the official Israeli line still seems to be that they admit culpability), but there is no serious backing for the claims apparently being promoted by some that the whole thing was a fake. But despite that, it's all there in the lead. I don't get what you're complaining about. --Nickhh (talk) 19:55, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I thought Julia had already made it clear what s/he's complaining about - the fact that the article doesn't present the conspiracy theory as being just as important (if not more so) than the mainstream view. Of course, this is a violation of WP:UNDUE (part of WP:NPOV), which is a non-negotiable policy - therefore it's not going to happen. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:24, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

This is all based on your assertion that this is a "conspiracy theory" - an assertion that is not based on facts or sources. So your point is not valid. We shall present in the lead the two views not the France-2 view which you call the mainstream view. Only France 2 reported the issue, made the film available to many who repeated it – the lie was propagated world wide. Now there is a valid second view which court (after hearing experts) has approved and we need to present both views.--Julia1987 (talk) 04:12, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

No, we shall do no such thing. Fringe theories do not deserve and will not get equal footing alongside mainstream theories. This is is a pretty basic guideline of the project, WP:FRINGE. Fact; The boy is dead. Fact; there is serious contention over responsibility for his death. Conspiracy theory; the death was staged. Which of these things is not like the other? Tarc (talk) 04:31, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

List of some prominent people who believe that the film was a hoax: Tundrabuggy (talk) 02:10, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

It looks like a war going on on this very page. He are here to report the facts, not make them up, etc. Obviously one side is telling the truth and the other isn't. The number of believers who believe one side or the other is the majority view is totally irrelevant as to the truth. The point is the truth, not as it is found here by wiki editors but as it exists in actuality.

Eventually the truth will be known. At that time the article should present the truth, then present a small section on the former existence of a controversy over the truth in the world (and not in wiki world). Until then the article should be written in a neutral manner exactly as wikipedia requires and should not make conclusory statements on things people here conclude as opposed to the real world conclusions based on incontrovertible facts. Right now it is obviously POV whether you favor one view or the other. I suggest everyone just cool down and work this out properly within the framework of existing wiki guidance without the need for being uncivil. I myself have no knowledge of any of very much on this topic so I will not be participating. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 06:00, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

My thoughts on the Karsenty issue

My feeling is that Karsenty isn't that important -- even for the hoax theory. If France had a stricter libel standard or his website was hosted abroad, he might not have been pursued by France 2 and we'd have never heard of him. I think the Karsenty affair has some notability and I'd probably make it into an article on its own but I think it probably doesn't deserve much mention in this article. Not that he is wrong per se but the trial didn't really reslove anything. Like Chris said above, his speech was deemed permissible but not necessarily correct. All it did say that he based his notions on his own evidence rather than simply inventing them out of thin air.

That said, I think it is important that the court-appointed, independent ballistics expert said the bullets could not have come from the Israeli position. That's important. I don't think we have other opinions from disinterested experts. But the resolution of the trial doesn't really tell us anything that we didn't know before it. It may be that it spurs other people to talk about it but we'll have to wait and see.

Just my opinion. Thanks. --JGGardiner (talk) 22:37, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Karsenty himself is negligible. It is the two descriptions of the same events that matter. For convince we can name them as the Talal/Endrlin view and the Shahaf/Karsenty view.--Julia1987 (talk) 04:14, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

As I wrote above, when you look at the sources there are actually three views (and perhaps four, depending on which way you slice it):

• Israelis probably killed al-Dura (original media reportage)
• Palestinians may have killed al-Dura (later media reportage)

• Nobody knows for sure who killed al-Dura (predominant current view)

• Incident was staged and al-Dura isn't dead (Karsenty/Landes conspiracy theory)

The first three are reflected in a huge amount of reliable sources - hundreds if not thousands of media reports, books, etc. The latter is only really supported by a handful of op-ed columnists, plus of course some right-wing bloggers and a few thoroughly unreliable websites. It has nothing like as much prominence among the sources as the other views.

Julia, let me put this simply: you want to get an opt-out from WP:NPOV's undue weight provisions. This is not going to happen. NPOV is non-negotiable, and Misplaced Pages is not the place to promote one's favourite conspiracy theory. If that's all you're here for (and judging by your edit history and talk page comments, it looks like it), then I'm afraid you're wasting your time.

Incidentally, I noticed that the Jerusalem Post has (somewhat surprisingly) posted a scathing op-ed piece on the conspiracy theorists . It's worth a read. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:09, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

it certainly is somwhat surprising. wasn't it your nutty assertion above that the jerusalem post failed as a reliable source because it's part of conrad black's zionist media conspiracy? i think you did. in fact anyone can see that you did right up here: http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Muhammad_al-Durrah#NPOV_in_light_of_the_Karsenty_verdict

i guess the rule is that op-eds are worthless sources when they don't work for chrisO's narrative; must-reads which establish the fact of the matter when they do work for chrisO's narrative. court-appointed forensic ballistics experts are "fringe kooks" also.

side note, i actually added text which stated discretly that the libel conviction had been overturned by a higher court, but that was rv'd. such a statement of fact is a little too stark for the article campers' tastes. such things have to be insulated and obscured by intricately-parsed verbosity which in the end gives the impression that nothing was decided in the court case at all. the operative definition here for npov violation, after all, is "not chrisO's pov.

I agree with both Jaakobou and ChrisO: personally I do not know if the boy is alive or not. I hope for him he is alive but despite the fact that is a boy in his age called "Mohamed a-dura" in Gaza (a boy admired as hero by his peers) let us assume that he is indeed dead. Still there is as Chris suggest a "predominant current view : Nobody knows for sure who killed al-Dura" We should there for highlight this fact " Nobody knows for sure" in the article lead so as not to apear as placing blame on this or that side as it is not Misplaced Pages role to place blame. Next we should present the main views: There is the Abu Rahma report that IDF killed the boy and there is the other view – for NPOV sake both should be presented.

--Julia1987 (talk) 10:10, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the anon. IP to also see a double standard regarding op-eds here. I think the discussion would be in much better condition if people were to take up my suggestion for FTN, RfC or some other type of mediation. Someone willing to do the source work to assert their perspective would also be a nice change of pace. Jaakobou 02:47, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Come on Jaakobou, surely you can see the difference between using an op-ed as a source for facts in an article and mentioning an op-ed on a talk page as an interesting read? Your "double standard" would imply that we're not allowed to mention op-eds anywhere, even on a talk page. -- ChrisO (talk) 10:13, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I sent you an email about my thoughts. You know where to catch me if you feel like discussing my above comment without further taking this page off topic.

With respect, Jaakobou 11:27, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Well I guess this is "my" section so I'll post this here. The Toronto Star, the most widely circulated, if not the best, paper in my country just posted an decent, even-handed article on the controversy.

Also, I have a few questions and ideas that have come up. I'm new to this controversy so some of you might know the answers already. Firstly, I have noticed differeng opinions on the talk page about Shahaf. One says that he believes in the hoax like Karsenty, the other that he only doubts the bullets were Israeli. Which is it? I'm also thinking that the "independent journalists" and "Leconte" sections could be condensed. They were important earlier when they described the unseen rushes. But now that the rushes are available, they are less so. And this makes me think that perhaps the information should be grouped more thematically, rather than in chronolgical order. Right now it is a bit clunky and and I think confusing for readers. Thanks. --JGGardiner (talk) 11:18, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

raw footage at youtube

I wrote this earlier but no one responded. I found these videos compelling. Could someone please respond to this? I would like to put up a link on the article page. What is the policy of wiki in regard to posting links to actual video footage such as this at youtube?

10 seconds of raw footage not shown on France 2 (can also be seen on the end of Part II: 18 minutes of France 2 raw footage, Part I: Part II: Can we post such videos on the article page, and if so where? ThanksTundrabuggy (talk) 13:50, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

You might wish to have a look at WP:YOUTUBE, as this is something of a frequently asked question. The bottom line is that YouTube links usually aren't permitted, because YouTube videos are invariably copyright violations - Misplaced Pages's copyright policy forbids linking to copyright violations for legal reasons. I've had a look at the links you've provided but there's no indication that the videos have been posted with the permission of France 2. I think we therefore have to err on the side of caution and exclude the links. -- ChrisO (talk) 18:59, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

On a side note: The rushes are released creative commons share alike by France 2 (this is mentioned in the article also). I would run this question by a wiki copyrights related forum. Jaakobou 02:43, 31 May 2008 (UTC) funny typo 03:02, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Lead

"The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article" WP:Lead --Julia1987 (talk) 20:33, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Have you actually read the lead? It already states that there is a dispute over the case. I'll put the relevant bit below in big letters and bold to make sure you don't overlook it again. Your text is also inaccurate - is Enderlin a Palestinian and is Karsenty an Israeli? It's not just "Palestinians and Israelis" who dispute it. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:56, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Paragraph 4 of the lead:

Although the Israeli army initially issued an apology for shooting al-Durrah, it released a report of an internal investigation eight weeks later that demonstrated that "it is quite plausible that the boy was hit by Palestinian bullets." Others later disputed the assumed sequence of events, the authenticity of the tape, questioned the honesty of the France 2 cameraman and reporter, the source of the fatal bullets, and the identity of the boy in the footage. Some speculated that the entire incident had been faked with no actual casualties. Campaigners sought the reopening of the case but did not attract public support from the Israeli government or army. Instead, unofficial investigations were carried out that disputed the official account of the shooting.

No hint of dispute at paragraph 1 & 2 of the lead

Yes. I read the lead and recent publications - we need to adapt the lead to a monumental court verdict.

So far this was not done. We can not present the France 2 version as "the truth":

Muhammad Jamal al-Durrah (1988-2000) Arabic: محمد جمال الدرة‎), was a Palestinian boy who became an icon of the Second Intifada when he was filmed crouched behind his father during a violent clash between Palestinians and Israeli security forces in the Gaza Strip.

Palestinian journalist Talal Abu Rahma filmed the father and son sheltering during a crossfire between troops at an Israel Defense Forces (IDF) outpost and Palestinian police and gunmen shooting from a number of locations. After a burst of gunfire, the two slumped into prone positions. Al-Durrah was reported to have been killed and his father severely injured by Israeli gunfire.--Julia1987 (talk) 03:06, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I disagree completely. We are not even sure that that was a violent clash between Palestinians and Israeli security forces. I saw Palestinians but no Israelis. Do we know that Israelis were involved in that episode at all, for sure? Why wouldn't that be an "apparent" violent clash? Is there proof-positive that this was going on during a crossfire situation at all? All I saw was Palestinians attacking an Israeli outpost. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Tundrabuggy (talk) 23:45, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

That's purely your personal opinion, and it's a very idiosyncratic opinion at that. I don't think even the conspiracy theorists have tried to claim that there was no crossfire. The reliable sources we do have are unanimous that there was an exchange of fire between Palestinians and Israelis. Please leave the personal theories and focus on what the sources say - remember, Misplaced Pages has a policy prohibiting no original research. -- ChrisO (talk) 00:41, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

No one disputes that during the day, in the general area of Nezarim junction, there was exchange of fire. But a number of sources question whether there was an exchange of fire during what is purported to be the shooting of Al-Durra. Canadian Monkey (talk) 02:24, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment: First two paragraphs are not that bad. There might be room to reconsider structure of first paragraph to suggest he's no longer notable just for being an icon and for being filmed, but also for the later controversy. Thoughts/Suggestions? Jaakobou 08:46, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I've had a go at reworking the intro to simplify and summarise it without going into excessive detail and to reflect the mainstream views primarily (i.e. al-Durrah is dead but it's unclear who killed him). The conspiracy theories need to be mentioned but per WP:UNDUE we should not give them as much weight as the mainstream views. We need to start thinking about doing the same for the rest of the article. As others have mentioned, the article as a whole is flabby and gives far too much weight to the minority POV. It's as though half of the article on the September 11, 2001 attacks was about the 9/11 conspiracy theories - which of course the 9/11 conspiracy theorists would like. I'd like to highlight a recent arbitration case, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/September 11 conspiracy theories, in which the arbitrators state:

Article content must be presented from a neutral point of view. Where different scholarly viewpoints exist on a topic, those views enjoying a reasonable degree of support should be reflected in article content. An article should fairly represent the weight of authority for each such view, and should not give undue weight to views held by a relatively small minority of commentators or scholars.

That principle applies universally, of course, not just to 9/11 conspiracy theories. -- ChrisO (talk) 11:50, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Chris, if you want a fruitful discussion please avoid making the comparison to 9-11 conspiracy theories or any other such theory – the issue had a critical review by court and court appointed experts and it went to 2 levels of judicial review – none of them related to it as fiction/conspiracy theory. If you continue to argue about it I don't think anyone here would listen to you.--Julia1987 (talk) 12:00, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Julia, the only issue decided by the court was whether or not Karsenty's claims met the legal standard for libel. That's all. It said only that there were legitimate questions to ask about the footage - "«l’examen des rushes ne permet plus d’écarter les avis des professionnels entendus au cours de la procédure» et qui avaient mis en doute l’authenticité du reportage." The ruling only addressed Karsenty's right to free speech, not the veracity of his claims. I'm well aware that Karsenty's supporters have claimed otherwise but it simply isn't borne out by what the ruling is reported to have said.

Now, when are you going to acknowledge the existence of Misplaced Pages's undue weight policy and its application to this article? -- ChrisO (talk) 12:10, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

It seems to me that the contested point on this discussion is the theory that the boy is alive, rather than the "who shot him" issue. Are we in agreement on this? Jaakobou 12:27, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

There seem to be several (overlapping?) conspiracy theories. Larry Derfner summarises them in his recent JPost op-ed: "And this is the most cautious of the theories - that some or all of the above framed the IDF for killing al-Dura in a shootout in Gaza at the start of the intifada, when they knew he was really killed by Palestinian gunmen. A more adventurous theory has it that the Palestinians - including al-Dura's father, who was shot trying to protect him - deliberately killed Mohammed so they could pin it on the IDF and create an intifada martyr. Probably the most exotic theory, the one that appeals most to the conspiracy-monger's turn of mind, is that al-Dura was never killed at all, that he's walking around somewhere today. Like Elvis, or Hitler." So we have at least three conspiracy theories there, straight off. Note that some of the conspiracy theories do accept that al-Durrah is dead. -- ChrisO (talk) 12:31, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Exactly, the "conspiracy theory" tag justifiably attaches to claims that he is alive, that the killing was staged or that there was some deliberate deception on the part of France 2 and others in how the incident was reported. I'm not aware of any serious source that asserts any of these things as fact. By contrast there is a separate and entirely legitimate dispute, widely covered in the mainstream news media, as to whether he was killed by Israeli or Palestinian gunfire - myself and Chris have been saying precisely this for, oh, about the last two thousand words posted on this talk page. All these issues are covered, both in the lead (including the recently reworked version) and in the main body of article. Without wishing to sound too narky about all this, life on Misplaced Pages would be so much easier if people actually read previous talk page posts properly and article content, as well as maybe doing a quick bit of research (in this case into Misplaced Pages policies eg WP:BLP and WP:UNDUE, and perhaps even into the basic principles of libel rulings), before dragging other editors into interminable further talk page debates, and trying to push fringe theories and personal viewpoints into articles. --Nickhh (talk) 14:04, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

• Do any of you have any WP:RS source published after the verdict and claiming this is a "conspiracy theory" ? or is this your own educated analysis of the court verdict ? --Julia1987 (talk) 14:07, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Before the verdict actually - it's the source I cited in the revised lead. See . -- ChrisO (talk) 17:39, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

ChrisO and NickH, you are overstating your case. It is true that the court case did not find that Karnesty proved his version is the truth. If it had, this article would be due for a much broader rewrite than Julia1987 is asking for – we would state clearly in the lede that “Al-durrah” was a large scale media hoax, describe claims that the IDF had killed him as deliberate deception by France 2, and probably rename the article to something like ‘Al-Durrah media hoax’. But the court did more than just rule that Karnesty is within his freedom of speech rights – it said that upon examination of the rushes, the professional opinion of those who testified cannot be dismissed, and that there is doubts about the authenticity of the story. This suggests that we cannot dismiss these opinions as fringe conspiracy theory. Canadian Monkey (talk) 15:32, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

First, you're missing the point that the court ruled that Karsenty was within his freedom of speech rights because there were legitimate questions about the story. But that isn't a controversial point anyway - the majority of media articles on the subject in recent years have acknowledged that there are legitimate doubts about which side was responsible for the shooting. The court did no more than acknowledge the same point. A ruling that Enderlin's report is the subject of legitimate dispute is not news.

Second, the "fringe conspiracy theory" is that the shooting was staged. I don't think we have any reliable sources to support that view as fact. A handful of op-ed columnists in a handful of newspapers have written a handful of articles supporting the conspiracy theory, but as WP:RS says, "Opinion pieces are only reliable for statements as to the opinion of their authors, not for statements of fact." The only other sources for the conspiracy theory are a few bloggers and self-published websites (unusable per WP:V). The court did not, as you rightly say, find that Karsenty's version was accurate - from what's been reported, it seems to have said only that the views of the witnesses cannot be dismissed, which is very different from saying that the witnesses were correct. It also doesn't change the fact that the witnesses' opinion is outside the mainstream view that the shooting was real but the responsibility is disputed.

Let me turn it around a bit. If you want to assert that the conspiracy theory is not a fringe view, where are your sources? -- ChrisO (talk) 17:39, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I don’t think I am missing that point at all – I am highlighting the part of that point (“there were legitimate questions about the story.”) that you seem to be glossing over when you repeatedly focus on the first part (‘Karsenty was within his freedom of speech rights”). You seem to be saying that all the court ruled was that Karsenty was exercising his free speech rights. The court did more than that. It said the evidence provided by him as to the whole situation being staged was serious, and while not conclusive, can’t be dismissed as a fringe conspiracy theory. And this point was made not with regards to the question of who shot Al-Durrah (which, as you note, has been openly debated for 8 years, and not contested at all as part of this trial), but with regards to the question of was he shot at all.

I am not saying that we should present the theory that the whole incident was staged as fact – as we have no sources for that. If we had such sources, we would need a major overhaul of this article, describing the incident as a hoax. But neither can we state as fact that he was killed. What we should have is a neutrally worded lede – as it was before you reworded it introducing some significant POV changes - that describes only the undisputed facts: what the boy is famous for (a video purporting to show him being shot), the claims and counter claims made regarding who shot him, and the controversy surrounding this allegation – without stating as fact that this is a hoax or that he was killed. Canadian Monkey (talk) 18:17, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

You are not serious – are you? if you are you are engaging in WP:point. Clearly I don't have to prove anything. You want to describe it as "conspiracy theory" bring sources that after the verdict call it a "conspiracy theory". Even the bluntly biased article you cited raise hope that truth will emerge from the court case – and guess what : it did. Now based on that verdict we will change the article to present both views.--Julia1987 (talk) 17:44, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Once again, no, we will not be doing any such thing. Unless you can point to reliable sources that say otherwise, this is a fringe theory that will not be given equal footing in this article. Your efforts to skirt wikipedia guidelines here are not bearing fruit. Tarc (talk) 18:17, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

The appeal court ruled that karnesty's theory cannot be dismissed. It is no longer a "fringe theory". Canadian Monkey (talk) 18:20, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

What we have here is a group of editors determined to keep this article as if the verdict can be ignored. I am trying to solicit cooperation so that we can together rewrite the article and the lead based on the new facts as they emerged from the dismissal of the libel claim by the French court. This effort seems to just fall on deft ears and every change that was suggested (included sources) is quickly reverted. --Julia1987 (talk) 19:12, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

(offtopic note to Julia:) using sources, such as in this instance doesn't automatically mean that the construction works well with the rest of the lead. I agree that some information change is needed but the edit in itself was a bit iffy.Jaakobou 19:23, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

What on earth are you talking about? Several days ago specific details about the latest court verdict were - quite rightly - put into the article, both in the lead and in the relevant main section. They are still there, albeit after some give-and-take editing as to the exact wording. No "new facts" or "truth" emerged from the court case - it was a legal judgement about whether Karsenty's accusations against France 2 were libellous or not. Take your single purpose account back to the paranoid ravings of blogland and please save me and others from having to repeat all their points over and over again in a bid to keep this article at least with one foot in the real world. And please CM, point me to where in the verdict it says Karsenty's ramblings "cannot be dismissed" or specifically that his claim that Durrah was not killed is "serious". As far as I can tell it says nothing of the sort. Let alone where it goes so far as to back up his assertions. --Nickhh (talk) 19:30, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Nickh, statements such as “Take your single purpose account back to the paranoid ravings of blogland” are extremely uncivil. Please avoid them. As to your question, the Liberation article quotes the court saying

«l’examen des rushes ne permet plus d’écarter les avis des professionnels entendus au cours de la procédure» - (In English: “Examining the rushes no longer makes it possible to dismiss the views of professionals heard during the proceedings”) Canadian Monkey (talk) 20:49, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Nickhh, you are most definitely not very polite to Julia1987. In fact you may be violating wiki policy. I do not know the facts in this case but the people on one side seem to be editing and the people on the other side seem to be attacking. That causes me to wonder why, why the need to attack. If the facts were as you say they are, you would have no need to attack Julia1987 as you do. Other editors would follow wiki rules to produce a wikiworthy article. But when one or a group of people is consistently rude and unwiki friendly on a persistent basis, one begins to arrive at the conclusion that those attackers are hiding something or attempting to control something. I suggest for your own good of how people view your edits that you control your temper regarding Julia1987 and others like her. Just sitting back and watching the back and forth on this page is a very disheartening thing. The facts are the facts and they can be written accurately without the need for unwikiworthy conduct. Please consider acting accordingly. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 20:45, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Question: I've asked a question to the point of conflict, and the response wasn't what I expected. I'd appreciate a source based explanation to why "accept that al-Durrah is dead" is a conspiracy theory or vice-versa - source based note on it is a reasonable mainstream accepted possibility. Has anyone here other than me seen the "Three Bullets and a Dead Child" documentary? Jaakobou 19:23, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Small suggestion: How about "reportedly killed by Israeli fire (see also 'controversy')" in the intro? Not sure this solves the issue for everyone, but I figured it was worth suggesting.

• p.s. earlier question still standing. Jaakobou 22:23, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I am ok with this - but a variant of this is already in the lede - where it says "Al-Durrah was reported to have been killed and his father severely injured by Israeli gunfire." I am fine with just leaving it as it is. Canadian Monkey (talk) 23:00, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure what you mean, Jaakobou. The point I was making is that the conspiracy theorists have put forward several different conspiracy theories; some accept that al-Durrah is dead, others dispute this point. If you want to break it down more fully, the spectrum of mainstream views seems to be as follows:

Mainstream view 1: Al-Durrah was killed by the Israelis.

Mainstream view 2: Al-Durrah was possibly killed by the Palestinians.

Mainstream view 3: Al-Durrah was killed by one side or the other, but we don't know which.

Moving on to the conspiracy theories, I've seen the following put forward:

Conspiracy theory 1: Al-Durrah was killed by the Palestinians and the Israelis were unfairly blamed due to media bias / a Palestinian propaganda campaign.

Conspiracy theory 2: Al-Durrah was deliberately killed by the Palestinians in a conspiracy to frame the Israelis.

Conspiracy theory 3: Al-Durrah wasn't killed at all and the whole incident was a hoax set up by the Palestinians / the media.

To answer Julia's question, we know that the conspiracy theories are fringe views because they've received a negligible amount of reliably sourced coverage compared to the mainstream views. I found around a thousand media articles on the case in a Lexis-Nexis search. Of these, the vast majority address mainstream views 1, 2 or 3. The conspiracy theories are advocated by perhaps half a dozen op-ed articles that have appeared in three newspapers - the Canada Post, Jerusalem Post and Wall Street Journal. A slightly larger number of mostly French newspaper articles mentions the conspiracy theories, generally in relation to the Karsenty libel case, and attributes them to Karsenty and Landes. The total amount of coverage that the conspiracy theories have received amounts to probably around 30-40 articles out of the aforementioned thousand. There's no way on earth that's not indicative of a fringe view. Even 9/11 conspiracy theories are more mainstream than that. -- ChrisO (talk) 01:04, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Again, you are overstating your case, and using biased language in order to push a point a view. Read Misplaced Pages:RS#Claims of consensus - If you want to call something mainstream – you need to source that, i.e., find a reliable source, date after May 21, 2008, that says “the mainstream view is that al-Durah is dead, but we don’t know who killed him.” Similarly, if you want to call something a fringe conspiracy theory, you need to quote a reliable source, from AFTER the date of the Kersenty appeal verdict, that says that. Everything else is your personal research, which is not allowed. And while on the topic of your personal research, I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: you are overstating your case. The claim that post the Kersenty appeal, the theory that the Al-Durrah event was staged appeared in far more than ‘half a dozen op-ed ... in three newspapers “. In addition to the sources you mention – The Wall Street Journal, The Jerusalem Post and the Canada Post (which , btw, are more than enough in and of themselves to brush aside claims of “fringe conspiracy”) – these claims appeared in the Miami Herald (“The dramatic killing that wasn't”- , On Australia’s News.com (“Mohammed al-Durra footage may have been a hoax” - ), The Daily Telegarph (‘Fanning flames with a hoax” - ), The European jewish press (“...the whole incident may have been staged for propaganda purposes...” - ), The San Francisco Sentinel (‘FRENCH COURT FINDS FRANCE 2 MEDIA MISLED WORLD - ISRAEL KILLING OF PALESTINIAN BOY A HOAX- ), The Ottawa Citizen (“All the lies that are fit to print" - ), World Politics Review (When bad Journalism Kills - “...what if the tragedy did not happen? What if it was all a hoax? ...” - ) , Israel Today (“French Court Confirms: Al-Dura Report Faked - ), even in Ha’aretz – that bastion of left-wing opinion , for heaven’s sake! (“Court backs claim that al-Dura killing was staged” - ). Canadian Monkey (talk) 01:51, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes. And I wanted to add this paragraph from the Wall St Journal Online here A Hoax?

The court kept its eyes on the evidence. It is impossible in the limited space available here to do justice to a document that deserves line-by-line appreciation. The following examples drawn from the decision are a fair indication of its logical thrust: Material evidence raises legitimate doubts about the authenticity of the al-Durra scene. The video images do not correspond to the voice-over commentary. Mr. Enderlin fed legitimate speculation of deceit by claiming to have footage of Mohammed al Durra's death throes while systematically refusing to reveal it. He aggravated his case by suing analysts who publicly questioned the authenticity of the report. Examination of an 18-minute excerpt of raw footage composed primarily of staged battle scenes, false injuries and comical ambulance evacuations reinforces the possibility that the al-Durra scene, too, was staged. (There is, strictly speaking, no raw footage of the al-Durra scene; all that exists are the six thin slices of images that were spliced together to produce the disputed news report.)

The possibility of a staged scene is further substantiated by expert testimony presented by Mr. Karsenty -- including a 90-page ballistics report and a sworn statement by Dr. Yehuda ben David attributing Jamal al-Durra's scars -- displayed as proof of wounds sustained in the alleged shooting -- to knife and hatchet wounds incurred when he was attacked by Palestinians in 1992. In fact, there is no blood on the father's T-shirt, the boy moves after Mr. Enderlin's voice-over commentary says he is dead, no bullets are seen hitting the alleged victims. And Mr. Enderlin himself had backtracked when the controversy intensified after seasoned journalists Denis Jeambar and Daniel Leconte viewed some of the raw footage in 2004. The news report, he said, corresponds to "the situation." The court, concurring with Messrs. Jeambar and Leconte, considers that journalism must stick to events that actually occur.

The frail evidence submitted by France 2 -- "statements provided by the cameraman" -- is not "perfectly credible either in form or content," the court ruled.

This is not conspiracy theory, but evidence that is being ignored by some people because they apparently favor another version of events. This little bit of Pallywood helped fuel anti-"Zionism" and anti-semitism and it is high time that it was acknowledged for what it is. This is an important decision by judges who got to look at the evidence this time, not a public lynching. There is considerable evidence that the whole thing was a hoax and it is only fair now that it has been adjudicated, to present this view as another mainstream view, and not try to relegate it to a closet somewhere. It has been in the closet long enough. It needs to be fairly aired and that is what wiki is all about. Not about a few people trying to decide what is "mainstream" and what is "fringe." Tundrabuggy (talk) 02:52, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Let me quote you another bit from the recent Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/September 11 conspiracy theories:

"The purpose of Misplaced Pages is to create a high-quality, free-content encyclopedia in an atmosphere of camaraderie and mutual respect among contributors. Use of the site for other purposes, such as advocacy or propaganda, furtherance of outside conflicts, publishing or promoting original research, and political or ideological struggle, is prohibited."

Please bear that in mind and keep your personal opinions to yourself. If you're here just to promote an agenda, that isn't what Misplaced Pages is for.

The WSJ piece you quote is an op-ed by someone who is apparently a fairly obscure novelist - i.e. not someone with any personal authority in the subject matter - and is not usable as a reliable source for fact. Per WP:RS: "Opinion pieces are only reliable for statements as to the opinion of their authors, not for statements of fact." The same applies to most of the pieces cited above by Canadian Monkey. The recent verdict has actually been very little reported in the English-language press and virtually all of the reporting seems to have been derived from

Reminder no WP:OR

ChrisO: "To answer Julia's question, we know that the conspiracy theories are fringe views because they've received a negligible amount of reliably sourced coverage compared to the mainstream views. I found around a thousand media articles on the case in a Lexis-Nexis search. "

Thank you for this research.

Many of the "thousands edits" were before the recent court decision.

Your original research is not by doing the search but by making a conclusion based on that number of articles. The only conclusion we can conclude is that indeed the original France 2 report has been rebroadcast and repeated world wide by many media outlets. This is the only conclusion which is fact and not original research.

If you have a source saying "because this was published many times this means it is true" please show this source.

Some may see in this conclusion an indication about how antisemitism is spread. If we have sources connecting this accusation to antisemitism we can point that out.

We need now to focus on the post court verdict coverage, on the court verdict itself and on the experts that the court heard (and accepted their view). This is what we need to do as good encyclopedia editors if we want to keep this encyclopedia current with the best available data to date. --Julia1987 (talk) 03:41, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

See my comments dated 08:11, 2 June 2008 in the section above. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:19, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure if this is a threat but I do not that this is either a lie or irrelevant for me.

I have not promoted original research – therefore the sentence "promotion of personal views and original research." Is either an unjustified attack on my behavior as an editor or it is an unjustified thereat? Now I understand that ChrisO is what's called "an administrator" however I also understand that actions taken by administrator need to be taken by someone who is uninvolved in a discussion. Since ChrisO is clearly involved I would ask that the following steps are taken:

1. removal of the notice given by ChrisO. If another uninvolved administrator would like to place it I would welcome the notification but would wonder as to why is it relevant to me as I have not promoted any original research. Most of m edits were a civil discussion here on the talk page trying to gather cooperation to change the article based on new sources (the court verdict and press articles discussing the newly published court verdict)
2. apology by ChrisO since he seems to accuse me of behavior I did not engage in.
3. ChrisO himself need to be warned that placing the label "conspiracy theory" on the Karsenty accusations (which were cleared by the court) is actually promotion of his own personal view: That the Karsenty view is "fringe theory".

What I learn from this experience is that there are people who would use their authority to promote their own political views. This is not new in this world and now it seems this takes place in an encyclopedia that supposed to be "free for all". I have noticed that ChrisO was first trying to gather support for his view in the "Fringe Theory" board but once he failed he turned into using his power as an administrator.--Julia1987 (talk) 09:36, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment: CrisO's opening of an FTN notice was a proper move. Notifying of the Arb case was proper also, although, I think the judgmental tone was out of place considering his direct involvement in the discussions. I think editors here should consider on how to present their cases (with sources) for FTN observers and a possible future mediation/RfC. Jaakobou 13:31, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but your entire point of view on this is fundamentally and fatally flawed, as it rests on your conclusion that the ruling addressed Karsenty's the truthfulness of Karantsky's claims. It did not, it only ruled that his saying it was not libelous. Tarc (talk) 12:29, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I am not going to enter a discussion with you on your understanding of the court vs my understanding of the court. We need to use sources - do you have any post trial sources supporting your view ?

Clearly there are enough sources that see ruling as something that casts a serious doubt on France-2 version of events. Why do you think France-2 was trying so hard to prove the facts? If the issue was what you claim the only issue in court would be interpretation of free speech laws in France. Obviously they went beyond: The court saw the rushes, the court heard ballistics experts. The court has looked at the facts. If the facts would have been as France-2 claim we would know about it. So now we are left with doubts and NPOV is presenting two sides of the story "describe the controversy".--Julia1987 (talk) 13:28, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

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