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Alien and Predator timeline

• Articles for deletion/Alien and Predator timeline (2nd nomination)

Alien and Predator timeline (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

A previous nomination apparently came to no consensus. Since that time, little to nothing has been done to address the concerns raised there. Despite the concerns that the article is not verifiable and consists of personal synthesis of the fictional works, no third-party sources are cited, nor, so far as I can find, do any even exist. Aside from the questions of notability which this raises, the significant and unanswered questions regarding verifiability and synthesis preclude even a merge at this time. As such, deletion is the only possible alternative, as without secondary sources to verify the information, those questions cannot be resolved. Seraphimblade 18:21, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

• Keep is an obvious possible alternative since there is no pressing reason to delete and the article seems well-constructed (unlike the AFD as the article hasn't been tagged). And it's too soon for a sequel to AFD#1. Colonel Warden (talk) 22:09, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment Tag is fixed, thanks for bringing that to my attention. As for "too soon", general practice is that one should wait for at least one month after a "no consensus" result, and the previous nomination which had this result was in April. I do believe that original research and lack of verifiability are pressing reasons to delete, why do you believe not? Seraphimblade 22:15, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

• Consider the first entry. This is sourced to the director, as reported in a secondary source. The detail is thus neither original nor unverifiable. There's a mass of other AvP material out there and per WP:IMPERFECT and WP:DEADLINE, it is our method to let this accumulate into the article over time. Your impatient desire to abort this process requires better reasons for support. Colonel Warden (talk) 05:36, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

• Just a comment: I don't think a "making of" featurette on the DVD of the film, expecially an interview with the director, counts as a secondary source. I believe that featurettes and interviews are considered primary sources, correct? (Interviews most certainly are). --IllaZilla (talk) 06:05, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
• Comment Also, to respond to Colonel Warden, while we do allow limited use of primary sources (such as the work itself or director's comments), we allow such use only if the use is simple and noncontroversial. Stating "Luke Skywalker was a character in the film Star Wars", citing Star Wars, is fine, as this is a simple, factual assertion. On the other hand, assembly of a timeline is, as you stated yourself, complex, and as is clear from the last AfD, controversial (some agree that the film verifies the timeline, others do not). This is exactly the type of original synthesis prohibited by the ban on original research. In such a case, secondary sources are required to verify the material. Those sources, from everything I can find, don't even exist, so it's not a question of eventualism—without secondary, independent sourcing to verify the article's content, that problem can simply never be solved. That is exactly why I've nominated for deletion. Seraphimblade 00:58, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

• Comment So far as I can tell, the facts presented in the article have not been seriously challenged and so they are not controversial and do not require especially good sources. All the tapdancing about sources just seems to be Wikilawyering to dress up an insubstantial bias against contemporary fiction - "cruft", "unencyclopedic" and other forms of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. But the argument that primary sources cannot be used in such cases is nonsense on stilts. For example, I have recently been working on an article about a Dickens character - Gradgrind. I cited the primary source on a point of detail because this is the best source. Secondary sources in such cases can misquote or otherwise distort the facts of the original and so they are less trustworthy. Colonel Warden (talk) 06:12, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

• I think the question of sources here goes beyond simply whether the films verify the dates given in the timeline or not (and it's been challenged as to whether or not they do...having watched all the films several times I'm not convinced that they do, as few dates are given in the films). I don't think anyone is saying that primary sources can't be used at all. What I think is being said...at least what I'm arguing...is that primary sources alone do not establish the notability or significance of the article's subject and are not enough to support a stand-alone article on that subject. For example, in your Gradgrind article you have a primary source to cite the character's role in the novel. This is perfectly acceptable and indeed the best source to reference that information. However, you also have 2 third-party secondary sources discussing the character's impact on language and how the character is meant to satirize another notable author. It's the secondary sources that show why the character is notable. If the character had no impact or significance outside of the book, then it wouldn't be appropriate to write an encyclopedia article on him. Articles about works of fiction should contain real-world context from third-party sources; this is Misplaced Pages's primary means of establishing notability. The no original research policy specifically says "Misplaced Pages articles should rely on reliable, published secondary sources. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Misplaced Pages editors." The verifiability policy also states that "If no reliable, third-party sources can be found for an article topic, Misplaced Pages should not have an article on it." Even if the films verified the dates in the timeline, they don't tell us why the timeline of events in these films is notable enough to merit an encyclopedia article. That's the core problem here, I believe. How is a timeline of the Alien and Predator films any more notable than any other timeline I might concoct for any other fictional franchise? Without any third-party sources, I have to conclude that it isn't notable, and thus seems to fail the policy that Misplaced Pages is not a publisher of original thought, an indiscriminate collection of information, or a guidebook of the Alien and Predator universe. --IllaZilla (talk) 08:11, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Well said. Dlohcierekim 13:26, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

• Notability is not the core problem since the notability of the Alien, Predator and Alien vs Predator movies and other works is beyond question. This article is part of a huge bundle of articles covering this extensive material and is just a chronology in a list format. In providing a list of dates from the mass of source material, it performs a similar function to the individual articles which list those dates separately. If not presented in the current form, it might be merged into another of the many companion articles where it would attract little comment. The extravagant arguments above seem quite redundant to normal content editing and do not justify the extreme measure of deletion. The real issue here is whether the chronology is actually accurate and verifiable. This is what the readership cares about - whether the information is right or not. If the matter were not notable, the existence of the article would be unimportant since, by definition, no-one would read it. Traffic statistics indicate that the article actually gets about 5000 hits per month and these seems adequate reason for us to maintain and improve the facts that it presents. The editors who have done the work of getting the article to its current state are to be commended for their efforts in providing material for so many readers. Colonel Warden (talk) 18:50, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

• Speaking as an editor who has made major contributions to the article, I still don't think it should stay. Just because the films themselves are notable doesn't mean it's appropriate to create dozens of "spin-off" articles on related topics that have little to no notability in and of themselves. By that rationale we could run off and create separate articles for every prop, every character, and every other random thing associated with the series in any way, whether there were sources to support those articles or not. Notability is not an inherited characteristic; it's only appropriate to "spin-off" an article if there are enough secondary sources to support an independent article on the sub-topic (for example, just because a politician is notable enough to have a Misplaced Pages article about them doesn't automatically mean that there should also be separate articles about their wife, children, and pets). Article traffic is also not necessarily an indicator of notability. I definitely think that the basic information in this article could be better presented in the parent articles about the franchises, such as Alien (franchise). But notice that that article already contains brief plot summaries of each film in the series. The timeline article simply sythesizes this info in a different form. --IllaZilla (talk) 19:19, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

• Keep Complex info set. Contents verifiable from Series. --Firefly322 (talk) 22:24, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

• Comment: Articles may not be based purely on primary sources, per WP:V and WP:NOR. Therefore the claim that "contents verifiable from the series" is irrelevant. --IllaZilla (talk) 23:11, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Please, your comment is completely wiki-lawyering and is totally irrelevant. --Firefly322 (talk) 00:11, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I find it rather rude of you to dismiss the comment as "wikilawyering" and "totally irrelevant". I am pointing out that the article fails 2 of the core article content policies, which is why it was brought here for discussion in the first place. --IllaZilla (talk) 00:27, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

After u used irrelevant towards my rationale and simply used it towards your rationale, I find it beyond unbelievably rude of to question something that is obviously fair. This comment under the circumstances is incomprehensible. --Firefly322 (talk) 01:04, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Incomprehensible? How exactly? I'm simply making the point that articles cannot only be based on primary sources. That is one of Misplaced Pages's core policies. I'm sorry you have a problem with that, but it's the whole reason we're debating whether to keep this article or not. --IllaZilla (talk) 02:09, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

• Keep because the timeline helps alien and predator fans understand the chronological sequence of events in the series. --Tj999 (talk) 23:29, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

• That seems like a rather weak argument to me, since Misplaced Pages is not a fansite or fanservice. The series of events are already summarized in the plot sections of the film articles, and the fictional events themselves do not merit a separate article on the subject of their chronology (especially in this series where the sequence of events is blatantly obvious even to a non-fan). --IllaZilla (talk) 23:48, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

• Well the guys and I who put the timeline together actually had to scan the movies and their novalizations to get the correct event settings. This is not a fan based article. This is a fan help article. I did not creat the article for my own health. I did it to give the facts to those who did not have them. --Tj999 (talk) 23:55, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

• Delete: Per my reasonings in the article's previous AfD, mainly:

1. It consists entirely of synthesis based only on primary sources, which makes it original research (thus failing one of our 3 core policies).
2. It amounts to nothing more than plot summary in a different form, without real-world context, and the plots are already summarized quite well in the articles about the films themselves (thus failing a second of the 3 core policies, "what Wikipeida is not", namely WP:PLOT).
3. The verifiability of the information has been challenged and not addressed (thus failing the third of the 3 core policies).
4. The notability of the subject has been called into question, and no reliable third-party sources have been brought to bear to show notability, nor is there any evidence to suggest that such third-party sources even exist that could be used.
5. Despite some cleanup and improvements in the writing, none of the article's major issues have been addressed or solved in the 68 days since the conclusion of the previous AfD, despite several maintenance tags having been placed on it even before that time. This leads me to conclude that the article's issues of notability, verifiability, and original research cannot be fixed, or at least that no one who is actively working on the article is endeavoring to fix them.

Though there is some precedent to suggest that timeline articles such as these do have a place on Misplaced Pages (see for example the Narnian timeline, which is a Featured List article...note that it uses third-party sources and real-world context), they must still be able to meet inclusion criteria based on our core article content policies. It is my belief that this article does not meet these criteria or policies and it is unlikely that it could be improved to the point where it would meet even these minimum standards. There may be other examples in Category:Fictional timelines that we can point to to show extremes at both ends: timeline articles which are exemplary and which meet our criteria/policies and others which fail them. --IllaZilla (talk) 23:48, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

• Comment This rationale contains too much policy and is completely wikilawyering. So it's irrelevant per wiki-lawyering policy. --Firefly322 (talk) 00:13, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Pardon me, but where is there a precedent indicating that it's unacceptable to cite our core policies when explaining one's opinion on a Misplaced Pages-related issue, especially an AfD? My reasons for supporting deletion are based on the policies, therefore it is pertinent to point to them, whether you consider it "wiki-lawyering" or not. Your response seems childish and not very civil. If you can't form a good counter-argument that doesn't amount to "I'm dismissing this comment because it's based on policies that I don't like", then I kindly ask you to refrain. --IllaZilla (talk) 00:35, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Precedent??? That's clearly a legal term. I rest my case. --Firefly322 (talk) 01:05, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it's an everyday word with a definition that's perfectly appropriate to this discussion: "An act in the past which may be used as an example to help decide the outcome of similar instances in the future". It also has a second definition as a legal term, but just because I have a decent vocabulary doesn't mean I'm a lawyer (Mr. "I-rest-my-case"). For what's it worth, I'm actually a grad student in history. We obviously disagree with each other's arguments. Let's just let it be, shall we, and let others state their points. There's really no point to us continuing to bicker. --IllaZilla (talk) 02:09, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

• Delete. A textbook case of synthesis and original research. Quale (talk) 06:05, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
• Delete Totally engrossing timeline. No real world significance. How can anyone have a rationale that relies too much on policy??? An indiscriminate collection of information. "Usefulness" is not a valid keep argument. The timeline is in and of itself not notable and serves as no more than a plot guide. Cheers, Dlohcierekim 06:15, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
• Delete as original research. That the synthesis may have been made off-wiki is irrelevant unless the source making it can be shown to meet WP:RS, which I don't think this one can. Deor (talk) 12:41, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
• Delete for violating WP:NOT#PLOT and possibly WP:SYNTH, or merge with Alien vs. Predator as a complement for interested readers. – sgeureka 13:00, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

• Merging would be good but the timeline is too long. --Tj999 (talk) 16:14, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

• Delete If someone watches theses movies and creates a timeline, its considered OR. If someone watches theses movies, creates a timeline, and then sources the movies, then its not OR??? Delete per fancruft, OR, no real world information -- Coasttocoast (talk) 20:47, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

• What else do you source when you are creating a timeline for a film series? --Tj999 (talk) 21:50, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

• Some third party sources independent of the subject, ideally, but as myself and several others have pointed out it's unlikely that any reliable third-party sources have been published that specifically discuss the chronology or timeline of events in this series. See the Narnian timeline, it uses a couple of third-party sources. --IllaZilla (talk) 22:13, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

• Yeah, the Alien and Predator seires don't have other material like Narnia does. Though there is a Marine Handbook for the movie Aliens that might include some information. I have not seen the book, but maybe it is at a library or something. --Tj999 (talk) 23:08, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Could not locate a copy on Google book search. Dlohcierekim 13:26, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

The book he's referring to is the Aliens: Colonial Marines Technical Manual. That's a primary source, though, as it's directly connected to the film franchise. It's not a third-party analysis of the subject, it's a manual that presents the fictional aspects of the marines and their equipment in an in-universe fashion, similar to A Guide to the Star Wars Universe or the Star Wars Encyclopedia. These are all books that were released as official supplements to the films, so I don't believe they're considered secondary sources, especially because they don't contain real-world analysis and are works of fiction themselves. --IllaZilla (talk) 15:33, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

It seems a good and reliable secondary source because it is by a different author. It is reasonable to suppose that he would have good access to the source material and that his output would be checked as owners of such valuable properties are usually concerned to protect them from degradation by poor work. Colonel Warden (talk) 16:11, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

• Keep Appropriate alternative way to present the material--in fact, probably clearer for people who aren't fans. The material is documented by the primary sources, as appropriate for articles dealing with plot. DGG (talk) 05:33, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
• Comment --IllaZilla comments about Aliens: Colonial Marines Technical Manual is just more wikilawyering. The standards he or she are suggesting would require that every editor on wikipedia have the equivalent of a law degree specializing in wikipedia policy. Not so kwel. --Firefly322 (talk) 17:12, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Whether you think having standards is "kwel" or not is not pertinent to this discussion. It's only natural to assume that newer editors won't have an in-depth understanding of Misplaced Pages's policies or processes, which is why we always assume good faith and try to improve content. However, when other editors with experience see something that they feel is inappropriate, it's totally within their rights to debate whether we should keep it. That's exactly what we're doing here. This article has already been through an AfD before, 2 and a half months ago. Since then no one has done anything to address its fundamental problems. It doesn't appear that anyone involved in this discussion is totally new to Misplaced Pages. We all have some experience with the policies, which by the way were formed by consensus amongst many editors (even though you seem to want to dismiss ones that you don't think are "kwel", and by extention dismiss anyone who happens to agree with them). As for my comments about the Technical Manual, they come from the fact that I've actually thumbed through the thing and know what its contents are. Colonel Warden, it's not a secondary source. It's an officially licensed book that's part of the expanded universe of the series, just as the novels and comics are. It's entirely a work of fiction; it presents all of its information from an in-universe perspective and doesn't have any real-world analysis. It describes things like the M577 A.P.C. and M56 smart gun as if they were real. I'm not criticizing its contents, I'm just saying that makes it as much of a primary source as any of the comic books or other works of fiction, in the same way that The Star Trek Star Fleet Technical Manual is considered a primary source reference for the expanded universe of Star Trek. --IllaZilla (talk) 18:57, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

• I already understood the nature of the work and still consider it a secondary work as a matter of fact. The presentation of the work in a fictional format is merely a matter of style. What matters for our purposes in verifying the chronology is that it treats the dates as canonical. Colonel Warden (talk) 19:04, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

• Just a note on that, then: This particular franchise has a notorious lack of "official" canon between its different forms of media. The films follow one another, and the comics follow one another, etc.; but several of the comics completely contradict the events in the films and vice versa. There is no established canon for the franchise as a whole, as there is for Star Wars. That's why the timeline article is fairly limited in its scope, only covering the films. The Technical Manual is meant to complement the film Aliens, but it's at best questionable whether it's considered canonical or not and whether any dates given in it would match the "official" timeline of the films. --IllaZilla (talk) 19:25, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment Like many of IllaZilla's comments --This particular franchise has a notorious lack--without a source is completely hypocritical and comes off as specious, given the standards that he or she demands from all editors. Experienced editors don't waste time with wiki-policy. Nor do they argue about double-standards that even they could not and clearly fail to live up. --Firefly322 (talk) 23:09, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

This is a trap. I offer a well-reasoned argument backed up by policies, and you dismiss my opinion as "wiki-lawyering". If I were to simply say "this article should go because I don't like it", you'd dismiss it as unreasoned and having no basis in policy or practice. I have no stomach for games. You're simply being petulant because I said that one of the points in your initial comment was irrelevant. You should know that you can't make me angry. I'm done responding to your repeated groundless rebuttals and insults. Happy editing. --IllaZilla (talk) 02:23, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

• Comment I think that the only issue considered here is the sources. After comparing the article up for deletion with the article Narnian timeline, that's the only real issue I see. Both deal with fictional timelines, both deal only with the fictional timeline. (True, the Narnian article tells you about some appearant real world dates, but you have to realize that the 'real world' presents in the tale of Narnia is no more our world then that of Alien vs Predator is.)

Both timelines are subject to some controversy as well. In case of the Narnian ones there is dispute between experts in the field according to the article itself, and in the AvP case, there are canon issues due to the myriad of uses the concept has. Were one to consider all sources of AvP stories in their canon however, one would need to involve all sources of tales touching any part of Narnia as well. Since in the case of Narnia all sources not in the main, lewis-written sequence are ignored, I think it's not unfair to ignore all non-movie sources of the Alien and predator universe.

So, in my opinion, there are only three real issues to consider here.

Firstly, you could claim that AvP is pulpy science fiction, and not worth the space on Misplaced Pages. This standing is valid enough, as it is obviously subjective.

Secondly, you could claim that there are not enough reliable secondary sources to signify the information. To verify this, one would have to read the books written about the AvP movie universe and decide if the books are reliable, and if the books contain the information.

Lastly, you could decide that the points I just made are all good and valid, and therefor put Narnian timeline up for deletion as well.

Personally, I think that the article fits well in Misplaced Pages, but that has nothing to do with the policies, I've found Misplaced Pages a huge source for information, much information of which is trivial.

Note I did not claim this information is trivial.

I'd like to hear any thoughts on my post, but I'll simply ignore or mock any post which responds with nonsense, make false arguments or blatant insults. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.25.78.195 (talk) 05:58, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

• Delete. As others have said above, this is an obvious example of original research. Terraxos (talk) 13:59, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
• Delete It is an inappropriate article. Masterpiece2000 (talk) 14:34, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

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