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Archive 1

Incidents of controversial media reporting

This is a joke, right?! A cruel ironic joke? How come an article on biased media coverage lists controversial media incidents exclusively based on examples in favour of Palestinians? Numerous studies show that both in quality and quantity the anglo-american press is predominantly biased in favour of israel (the closer to New York, more bias). Some of these studies are even mentioned in this article as reference, why aren't examples from these studies extracted to the list of incidents? This is very disheartening. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.183.8.241 (talk) 20:21, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Are you trying to insinuate something by blaming New York, and refusing to capitalize "Israel"? AnonMoos (talk) 00:35, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

S/he didn't capitalise "Anglo" or "American" either, so I don't think you can read too much into that. Bad spelling isn't a conspiracy. :-) -- ChrisO (talk) 13:38, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

User 71.183.8.241, or other concerned editors -- please add sourced examples that you believe will improve the balance in the article. RomaC (talk) 05:29, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Please add them to the far superior Media coverage of the Arab-Israeli conflict/rewrite. <eleland/talkedits> 05:34, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

When is the rewrite going to replace this insult to Misplaced Pages? RomaC (talk) 14:34, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, that depends on if it must absolutely be completed before it replaces the current version and also on how much help I get. Sorry, although I've been trying to get around to finishing the rewrite, my coursework has been keeping me fairly busy. And also, the weather has gotten very, very nice, so it would be a shame to spend all my free time in-doors editing Misplaced Pages. In all seriousness, though, I think we can complete the rewrite fairly quickly if a number of us just add a small part each day or every other day. ← Michael Safyan 21:37, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

How about put the rewrite up now as it is and put the unfinished bits here in the Talk page? RomaC (talk) 04:06, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

We can put the rewrite up now, but I see no reason why we should break it up and put any unfinished pieces here. IMHO, the {{expand}} tags are sufficient for showing that a section is under construction. Does anyone object to replacing the current version with the rewrite? ← Michael Safyan 21:38, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Since there haven't been any objections, I have replaced the current page with the rewrite as-is. ← Michael Safyan 20:49, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

How come the re-write includes the Grossman picture? The only relation to any serious discussion of the topic concerns a highly unusual double retraction of a story that wrongfully maligned Israel. Anyone would think Israel was wrongly getting an easy ride.

How come the Gaza blast incident includes a quote from CAMERA, themselves one of the very most worrying parties in the whole business of media distortion? Anyone would think Israel was wrongly getting an easy ride.

How come the Independent's story on "Mystery of Israel's Secret Uranium Bomb" is treated as if it was a falsification, when there is no evidence for such? It's no more than an unverified allegation at this point. Worse, although the headline is eye-catching and (perhaps) wrongfully accusatory, the article itself is not, only questioning based on forensic testing at apparently reputable labs. (See my reasoning for saying this). Anyone would think Israel was wrongly getting an easy ride.

And how come Robert Fisk (author of the article) is selected as, presumably, an un-balanced writer, when the article itself is carefully and correctly worded? There may well be a fault, but it lies in the head-line.

Just from this one section, I think it's clear there remain really serious problems, with quite unsubstantiated claims made to defend the position that Israel is unfairly maligned. Whereas, in each of these three cases, the actual material might even suggest the opposite.

Answer to my question? "This was never a re-write in the first place, It's still laced with the exact same, really serious problems of the original article". PR 11:16, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

In answer to your question...

1. The Tuvia Grossman article is a "frequently cited incident" of controversial reporting by Israelis and Israel advocates who claim that the Western media favor Palestinians. It is so significant, in fact, that according to Honest Reporting's promotional videos, the Honest Reporting media watchdog group formed as a result of this particular incident.
2. The quote from CAMERA is preceded by a clear indication that it is being quoted. The purpose is not to support or refute their claim, but merely to explain what claim they make.
3. The Independent's story on "Mystery of Israel's Secret Uranium Bombs" was a falsification; their allegations that Israel had employed Uranium-based weaponry during the Second Lebanon War were refuted by the United Nations Environment Programme.

I think you are incorrect in stating that the rewrite is no different than the original. Whereas the original validated/refuted claims of bias, this new version explains what claims are made by each side, without endorsing or refuting such claims. That said, I concede that the "Frequently cited incidents" section, at this moment, contains incidents which are cited primarily by Israelis and their advocates. If you come across incidents which are frequently cited by Palestinians and their advocates, I will gladly include them in the article; at this time, though, I have been unable to find an incident meeting the following criteria:

1. The reported information was refuted by one or more prominent governmental or non-governmental organizations, or
2. The reported information was admitted to be false by the publisher, or
3. The reported information was called into question by a high contracting party or by notable persons (e.g. a high-ranking government official of Israel or the Palestinian Authority)

AND

1. At least one pro-Israel/pro-Palestinian media watchdog group has referred to the incident on more than one occassion, or
2. Several pro-Israel/pro-Palestinian media watchdog groups have referred to the incident.

If you are able to locate an incident of pro-Israel/anti-Palestinian or alleged pro-Israel/anti-Palestinian reporting which meets that criteria, please include it in the list. Thank you. ← Michael Safyan 19:31, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I worry that you've made up these criteria, and that they're pandering to the blogosphere, of which "Honest Reporting" is definitely a part. CAMERA is supposed to be excluded as non-RS by RfC (long before it was caught trying to pack Misplaced Pages).

However, there may be advantages to your criteria (if the community accept that they are or should be policy). They'd mean that, for instance, the Jenin Massacre and the Gaza Beach massacre will be referenced, and both are (whatever you think of the "truth" of them) 100s of times better reported than Grossman.

Oh, and I need a reference that says the "Uranium Bomb" story was a falsification and not simply a story for which no evidence was found at a location that I estimate to be 20km away. The falsifications of Israel over its use of white phosphorus and other breaches of International agreement (central to the Independent story) must, again, be 100s of times more significant to this topic than is Fisk misquoted by the headline a sub-editor applied to one story. PR 07:31, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I worry that you've made up these criteria

Of course I made up the criteria, but not just now. Whenever there is a list, criteria must be established for including items in the list. Since I was the only one editing the article, for a while, I simply kept the criteria in my head. We can, of course, negotiate the criteria, so long as the criteria remain logical and we apply them consistently. That said, I think the criteria which I established are rather sensible, and so I am not rushing to change them unless a number of editors find them to be illogical or problematic... in which case, we can debate the issue.

and that they're pandering to the blogosphere

Accusations of biased reporting in the blogosphere which are notable (reported in the news, resulted in retractions, referenced* by notable persons, referenced* by notable governmental or non-governmental organizations, or ....) certainly merit mention. *NOTE: when I say "referenced", I do not mean "cited", but rather "referred to".

of which "Honest Reporting" is definitely a part

While Honest Reporting's actions and comments are felt within the blogosphere, HonestReporting has its own, organizationally run, website. Honest Reporting, as one of the two major pro-Israel media watchdogs (the other being CAMERA), merits mention in an article about the positions of pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian media watchdogs. Even if it were a blog, though, HonestReporting is quoted in order to explain its position, only; not to substantiate facts. Furthermore, all quotes are given explicitly (i.e. with "According to..."). Since the quotes are used to explain the organization's position and not to validate anything else, the quotes are consistent with Misplaced Pages's standards for quoting blogs.

the Jenin Massacre ... will be referenced

Good point. I had almost forgotten about that... Although I'm frankly surprised that you would mention it, since it is cited primarily by Israelis and Israel advocates, since early media reports largely repeated the claim that hundreds of Palestinians were massacred, a claim refuted by HRW, the UN, and Amnesty International.

I need a reference that says the "Uranium Bomb" story was a falsification

The reference is already in the article. See the publication by the UN News Centre, stating that no Uranium-based weaponry were used.

The falsifications of Israel over its use of white phosphorus

I'm afraid I've lost you. If I tell you five facts and one lie, do the five facts make the lie no longer a lie? The claim that Israel used Uranium-based weaponry was found to be false. End of story. Whether anything else Fisk said in his article was true is irrelevant, and really has no bearing on the fact that the article is frequently cited by Israelis and Israel advocates as an example of alleged bias.

I hope I have answered you to your satisfaction. Good evening. ← Michael Safyan 08:49, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm still finding nothing stating that the reports on Israel using Uranium-based weapons were "found to be false". All I'm seeing is the UN saying Israel did not use depleted uranium during conflict with Hizbollah, UN agency finds, which does not match what's in the article, and is denying something quite different - the two named labs (and a military science professor) says that it was enriched Uranium that was found. And of course, we don't accept what is only in headlines anyway, as I'm sure you know).

I've asked this repeatedly, I'm not sure what the problem is but this is clearly a breach of BLP. We don't accuse living people of publishing falsifications, particularly not in their profession. (This is on top of a raft of other objections to this article, about which you admit to be operating an undocumented policy of your own). PR 11:21, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

If you don't mind, I'm going to start a new section for this. ← Michael Safyan 17:40, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

I couldn't find anything on how it(media reporting) has evolved over time

Some snippets from Time Magazine to use as food for thought:

• Monday, Aug. 04, 1924

At London, in an address before a session of the World Zionist Organization, Sir Herbert Samuel, High Commissioner of Palestine, waxed enthusiastic over the upbuilding of the Jewish National Home and the general progress of Palestine. Said he:

"The industrial exposition in Tel-Aviv revealed the development of Palestinian industry, and was a convincing indication that Palestine may become the industrial centre of the Middle East within our generation."

• Monday, Dec. 21, 1936

Profoundly disapproving of the Zionist policy of discrimination against Arab labor, he concluded that Jewish nationalism encouraged Arab nationalism, while the depressing of Arab wages made conflict inevitable. Jews who had been persecuted in Germany now persecuted Arabs and preached a doctrine of racial purity as relentless as the one under which they had suffered. A little dizzy from following this vicious circle all the way around, Gessner came reluctantly to a doubtful conclusion: "If we can't get along with the Arabs, we have failed."

• Monday, Aug. 16, 1948

They talked confidently—indeed, stridently—of a state of ten million, not necessarily confined to the present boundaries of Israel. It was a bad joke, and also a sober observation, that the idea of Drang nach Osten lived in the new nation of Hitler's victims. As they looked around them at a disorganized and unproductive Arab world, Israelis showed some of the reactions of the prewar Germans looking around a disorganized and unproductive Europe. The new blood of nationalism ran fast and hot in Israel; sometimes it seemed to be gushing out on the ground. Pleading for more understanding and tolerance of Israel, one sympathetic observer warned: "This could become an ugly little Spartan state."

--Stor stark7 15:10, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

The map at the top of the article

Hi

I was skimming past this article when I noticed that the picture used at the top has a powerful visual message: that Israel is overwhelmingly surrounded by the "Arab League", nations that at some stage been at war with Israel.

I don't doubt the reliability of the map, and I have a question:

a.) is the map relevant to a discussion on media bias?

Cheers, S.Wilson (talk) 05:16, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Believe that map is not relevant at all to a discussion on media bias. RomaC (talk) 05:22, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. ← Michael Safyan 05:32, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

So do you think some one should remove it?S.Wilson (talk) 00:51, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

No. If you disagree with the map, bring it up at {{Template:Infobox Arab-Israeli conflict}}. The map is a part of the infobox for the Arab-Israeli conflict, and the conflict is certainly pertinent to the article. Including the infobox indicates that this article is related to the Arab-Israeli conflict, and it allows users to quickly navigate to other articles about the Arab-Israeli conflict. ← Michael Safyan 02:16, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi, S.Wilson. If you would like to debate the map, you should visit the talk page of Template:Infobox Arab-Israeli conflict. As for whether the map is related to media bias or perceptions of the conflict... without an article arguing that it is a form of bias, it would be impossible to write anything about it in Misplaced Pages. Personally, though, I have noticed that Israelis do view themselves as living in a tiny country surrounded by hostile Arab countries and surviving only miraculously, and view the conflict from the perspective of the larger map of the Middle East, whereas Palestinians view Israelis as the powerful and hostile ones, and view the conflict from the perspective of the much smaller map of Israel. If you can find an article on the subject suitable for citing in Misplaced Pages, then I would be interested in seeing the link. Have a good day. ← Michael Safyan 05:32, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Given the substantial political, economic and military support Israel receives from the United States, perhaps the US should also be included in the map? Surely they are more involved in the conflict than, say, the Comoros Islands, who are currently shown on the map as a "belligerent." Strongly suggest this misrepresentitive David vs Goliath caricature be removed, especially as it does not at all reflect on or relate to the subject of the article, which is media coverage. cheers RomaC (talk) 12:36, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Again, if you disagree with the map, bring it up on the talk page of the Arab-Israeli conflict infobox. To throw out the wikilinks to other pages related to the Arab-Israeli conflict over the map would be like throwing out the baby with the bath water. Please dispute the map on the infobox's talk page, not here. Thanks in advance for your understanding. ← Michael Safyan 18:41, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

No, as that forces a discussion of media coverage into another, broader and widely irrelevant context. The solution is that because some 90% of this article is about media coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, to re-title it as such. "Media coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict" was the original article title. There can be a subsection that looks at "Media coverage of other news events" to cover the few ancillary items. Also, this rewritten article's raison d'etre, an analytical approach that looked at one side then the other, is being challenged by the importing from the seriously slanted previous version of the article of sections such as "Frequently cited incidents" which lists six incidents, all of which tend to argue a Pro-Palestinian bias. RomaC (talk) 04:30, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I have just removed the infobox, in response to your complaints -- although, quite frankly, I find your complaints completely unreasonable and unfounded. As for the "frequently cited incidents" section, please understand that the I have written the vast majority of these article and that, I admit, I am more familiar with claims of "pro-Palestinian" or "anti-Israel" bias than with claims of "pro-Israel" or "anti-Palestinian" bias. If you know of any incidents, which meet the inclusion criteria, and which are cited by Palestinians and their advocates, then feel free to include them. On more than one occasion, I have requested assistance in helping to expand and improve the quality of the article. Thus far, only Eleland -- much to his credit -- has helped. So, if you have material to contribute to the article, then please contribute it. Otherwise, I find it rather hard to sympathize with complaints that I have not spent enough hours searching for material to include in the article. Thanks for your understanding. ← Michael Safyan 10:53, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Media Coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict

This was the original title of the article. Propose it better reflects the content overall.RomaC (talk) 05:30, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

The majority of the article focuses on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but there are parts which fall outside the scope of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict but within the scope of the Arab-Israeli conflict. For example, press freedom in the Middle East, the 2006 Lebanon War photographs controversies, etc. I think we should leave the title as-is, in order to allow for more flexibility with the content. ← Michael Safyan 05:36, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Strongly disagree. The bits that fall outside can be included in an "other" or "related" subsection. As it is the new title is being used to rationalize the David vs Goliath map in the infobox. RomaC (talk) 04:32, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Strongly disagree with your disagreement. Including aspects that fall into the wider Arab-Israeli conflict but not within the confines of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict into an "other" or "related" subsection would be illogical and would obstruct the flow of the article. Should the "other" subsection, also contain a "common claims" subsection, specific to the Arab-Israeli conflict? Should this "other" section also have its own "frequently cited incidents" subsection? It would be better to add content to the article, so that they are no longer merely "bits", than to organize the article by conflict rather than by topic. Also, per your objection that the new title exists solely to "rationalize the David vs. Goliath map"... while I strongly feel that you should argue this point on Template:Infobox Arab-Israeli conflict and that my inclusion of the infobox is both neutral and perfectly justified, I am willing to compromise and remove the infobox, since you so strongly object to it and since it is not, in my opinion, arguing over. ← Michael Safyan 10:41, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

DryBones Comic

Hi, RomaC. I believe you wanted to discuss the image from DryBones? While the image was pulled off of the blog, since these comics are frequently featured in the Jerusalem Post, the comic was topical, and since it is referenced only to explain its viewpoint -- not to substantiate facts -- I thought that the inclusion of the comic was appropriate. Of course, I would be glad to hear your input on the matter. ← Michael Safyan 08:50, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi Michael Safyan, I still have reservations about blog material here but am more concerned at this point with balance, and there is also a Palestinian comic so I am satisfied. cheers RomaC (talk) 12:41, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Fisk: Mystery of Israel's Secret Uranium Bomb

I'm still finding nothing stating that the reports on Israel using Uranium-based weapons were "found to be false". All I'm seeing is the UN saying Israel did not use depleted uranium during conflict with Hizbollah, UN agency finds, which does not match what's in the article, and is denying something quite different - the two named labs (and a military science professor) says that it was enriched Uranium that was found. And of course, we don't accept what is only in headlines anyway, as I'm sure you know).

I've asked this repeatedly, I'm not sure what the problem is but this is clearly a breach of BLP. We don't accuse living people of publishing falsifications, particularly not in their profession. (This is on top of a raft of other objections to this article, about which you admit to be operating an undocumented policy of your own). PR 11:21, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

To answer your question, Robert Fisk's article cannot be described as a "report". It is an article which does not so much report as speculate. Its claims are formed as questions, not as statements. For example, the opening sentence asks "Did Israel use a secret new uranium-based weapon in southern Lebanon this summer in the 34-day assault that cost more than 1,300 Lebanese lives, most of them civilians?" () It is this speculation, which UNEP refutes. As you say, we do not "accept what is only in headlines" (this is not entirely true, though; in certain cases where the headline was crafted by senior level editors, then headlines sometimes do matter, but that's a whole other story), and you will note that the UNEP found that there was no evidence that Israel used depleted Uranium nor any other form of Uranium-based weapon; as stated in the article, "no DU shrapnel, or other radioactive residue, was found. The analysis of all smear samples taken shows no DU, nor enriched uranium nor higher than natural uranium content in the samples." ()

How is it a breach of WP:BLP to state that the speculations of an individual are found to be false? Let us put it this way: should the article on the Iraq war claim that there were WMDs in Iraq, because it might constitute a violation of WP:BLP against George W. Bush to say that he was wrong? That's ridiculous, and you know it. WP:BLP prohibits committing libel. For example, claiming that an individual had an adulterous affair when that is not the case or there is no evidence to support it. A requirement of libel, however, is that it is not provably true. Claims which are provably true, whether detrimental to a given individual or not, do not constitute libel. Also, I am not convinced that WP:BLP even applies in this case, since the subject matter is Robert Fisk's article, and not Robert Fisk himself. ← Michael Safyan 18:09, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

The speculations of Fisk and the Independent have not been found to be false. We don't have even one usable RS to suggest they're wrong, only a report that says "evidence not found" (20km away) - by a report which confirms the area has effectively been mined.

This nonsense has gone on long enough, nothing has been proved false, and the article as it stands is in clear breach of WP:BLP. PR 19:04, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

PalestineRemembered's argument is a negative proof. It is logically equivalent to saying that Santa Claus exists because nobody has proven that he doesn't exist. PalestineRemembered argument also appears to rely on a false premise thereby making it double wrong: a logical fallacy based on disinformation. That kind of thing might hold water on Al-Aqsa TV, but not here on Misplaced Pages. --GHcool (talk) 20:35, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

As I understand it, what happened is that a test run by folks associated with the European Green Party found high levels of radioactivity in a site hit with Israeli bombs. This led to reasonable speculation about depleted uranium (a "conventional" weapon which causes somewhat elevated levels of radioactivity, and very high chemical toxicity,) as well as wild speculation about a radiological bomb or some kind of science fiction micro-nuke. Subsequent tests run by the UN found no elevated radioactivity. I think we can just state these facts without the POV/OR assertion that the Green guy was wrong and the UN was right. Actually that's what the article does in its present iteration, and I'm fine with it. What is the specific language in dispute here? <eleland/talkedits> 21:14, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Oh gee, GHC, you were doing so well until that gratuitous edit of your comment. Why don't you just assume good faith, edit reasonably, and ignore provocations from people like PR, instead of poisoning Misplaced Pages with these wild accusations and comparisons to Hamas. I generally refrain from comparing you to Meir Kahane, you can manage to do the equivalent for PR. <eleland/talkedits> 21:14, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

To Eleland: I did not compare PalestineRemembered to Hamas, but after reading your comment, I can see how my comment can be misinterpreted that way. Therefore, I have stricken that statement out of my original comment and apologize for the misunderstanding. On an unrelated note, I'd like to remind you that Meir Kahane is not the mirror image of Hamas, but I understand your point anyway. --GHcool (talk) 05:29, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm still not seeing anything that says the findings were false, other than one headline, which is not something we would use (and concerns a different, minor, allegation about DU).

The words we're using, "Fisk speculated" are an attack on his professional integrity, it's clear he was reporting the speculations of others eg ""The first is that the weapon was some novel small experimental ... The second is that the weapon was a bunker-busting conventional uranium penetrator weapon employing enriched uranium rather than depleted uranium." (Editors may or may not wish to stigmatise this Ph.D as unreliable, but it's clearly not Fisk's fault that his expert is in two minds).

Meanwhile, a Military Science professor also speculates in a different, non-Fisk article: "The only logical military reason for the presence of traces of uranium ... to make a hard, dense penetrator for an armour-piercing or "bunker-busting" device. ... The Khiam sample, with 108 parts U-238 to one of U-235 - just under one per cent - is clearly enriched - but not much ... why was this enigmatic material used?" For "enigmatic", the Independent substituted "mystery" - both parties would have been quite within their rights to call it "dirty bomb material". This example may or may not give a useful insight into "The Media in the ME", but it's hugely different to what we have in the article.

We could either modify this section to genuinely reflect the operations of the Media in the ME, newspaper accuses government, government denies, newspaper proved right, makes another highly credible (and much more damaging) allegation based on substantial scientific evidence.

Or, if that's too strong, we operate to policy and take out the section that seeks to defame a live person, Robert Fisk, as a falsifier. Especially since the reference we're using (an attack-dog for Israel) states he spoke too soon, not that he falsified anything, nor even that "he speculated". PR 11:12, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

PR, this has already been explained to you. It is not just the headline, but the actual UN report states, in the body of the report '"no DU shrapnel, or other radioactive residue, was found. The analysis of all smear samples taken shows no DU, nor enriched uranium nor higher than natural uranium content in the samples.". Go find another dead horse to flog. Canadian Monkey (talk) 14:47, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Canadian Monkey you are not being civil. Kindly change your tone. Cheers! RomaC (talk) 15:08, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

fair enough. I've stricken out the gratuitous comment. Canadian Monkey (talk) 16:13, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

As anyone reading the UNEP report will see, this is not a denial, only a statement that fresh samples (apparently taken on either bank of the Litani river, 20km away) showed no evidence of uranium, depleted or enriched. Only the headline (which cannot function as an RS) denies that suspect material was ever used by Israel - but refers to DU, which is not the subject of the allegation.

Furthermore, this came out long after the Fisk article, which we mischaracterise, claiming that it was his speculation.

Even if there wasn't doubt all over the way this has been written, we'd take it out as a BLP. PR 20:47, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

As anyone reading the UNEP report will see, you did not read it. The report says that 32 different sites were sampled, both north and south of the Litani (I don't know where this '20km away' comes from) - and no DU was found nor any other abnormal radiation levels which would be associated with nuclear weapons of any kind. The UN report is unequivocal - please stop misrepresenting what it says. Canadian Monkey (talk) 23:15, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

There are serious factual flaws in what you're saying, since the UN didn't re-sample the bunkers where the original samples came from (two named labs and a prof report on "enriched uranium") - the UN specifically tells us that they sampled (perhaps both banks of the river from a boat?) a site some 20km away. The UN (other than in the unusable headline) don't claim to have proved a negative, only not to have confirmed a positive.

Then there is the wording of the article, Fisk didn't speculate, he reported the clearly expressed speculations of others.

Then there is the nonsense of treating this case as "government right, media wrong", when the story is the very opposite.

Then there's the breach of BLP.

Then there's the fact I've only selected one incident out of 5, all of which have problems (though not the same BLP). The Grossman business is particularly irrelevant, unless it's proving how much pressure can be applied on western media on those few occasions they wrongly impugn Israel by mistake (as in this NYT case). The press is bound to have made the same mistakes on behalf of Israel sometimes - something much more useful could be found by examining the results of such cases. PR 11:09, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

You are either making things up, or seriously lacking in your reading comprehension. This is what the UNEP report says: "The weapons sub-team visited 32 sites south and north of the Litani River. Following strict field procedures a range of smear, dust and soil samples were taken. The samples were analyzed in October-November at an internationally recognised laboratory in Switzerland.

The samples taken by the UNEP scientists show no evidence of penetrators or metal made of DU or other radioactive material. In addition, no DU shrapnel, or other radioactive residue was found. The analysis of all smear samples taken shows no DU, nor enriched uranium nor higher than natural uranium content in the samples. ". 32 sites south and north of the Litani River means they went to 32 different places, some geographically south of the Litani, such as al-Khiam, and some North of the Litnay, such as Beirut, not 32 different spots on the banks of the Litani river. Canadian Monkey (talk) 14:50, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I am grateful to User:Eleland for pointing out that the ECCR (perhaps a troika, of which Dr Chris Busby is one part) is "activist" in a nice, scientific, way - their work on the measurements and effects of small doseage radiation is different from official sources. But each of them is on other, official, bodies, and their honesty, integrity and scientific work is not in doubt.

It turns out there was a significant scientific controversy over this business and it is quite likely to flare again. But the Independent has treated it entirely properly throughout, later publishing an even-handed (perhaps even Israel-friendly) response "Achim Steiner, under-secretary general and executive director of the UN Environment Programme (UNEP) ... said that the scientific analysis found no evidence of penetrators or other metallic bomb components made of depleted or enriched uranium, as claimed by two British activists in a report last month".

However, this interesting aside simply makes the inclusion of this incident in a "Media Coverage" article (where we've treated it as "unwarranted speculation in the press") even more problematic - Israel has (apparently) been caught in denial once over using white phosphorus, and most people would be very surprised to hear that Israel is not using DU (since the US and UK are doing so). Many will be waiting for the media to expose this use - and think that that's what "Media Coverage" is about.

Don't get me wrong - the details of this affair are important to other topics and articles. But this only makes it even more important that we don't misuse the details in a fashion that hides (two?) real stories and creates a non-story.

And on top of all the other problems, we have a serious logical failure as well, whereby failure to prove a positive becomes proof of a negative. I may need a specialist on logic to bring to User:Canadian Monkeys understanding why this argument is invalid (as well as not being from an RS). PR 13:03, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

The Independent published a front page story with a bold headlines and emotive (though irrelevant) pictures, wildly speculating that Israel used nuclear weapons in Lebenon. That story received very wide media coverage- to this day you can find dozens of sites that carry it. The UN quickly assembled a team that conducted a thorough investigation – and found the story to be baseless. Media watchdogs and other critics point to this as a case of biased media coverage. Based on the above, it clearly belongs in this article. If you want to add it to other articles and topics where it might be relevant, go right ahead. Canadian Monkey (talk) 14:31, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

PalestineRemembered is making a straw man out of Canadian Monkey's argument. Canadian Monkey is not arguing that "failure to prove a positive becomes proof of a negative." What he is arguing is that until and unless compelling positive evidence surfaces, the Misplaced Pages community will remain skeptical of unlikely claims. Similarly, the Misplaced Pages community does not currently include the claim that Elvis is alive within the Elvis Presley article, however, if and when compelling positive evidence for that unlikely claim surfaces, the Misplaced Pages community will quickly amend the Elvis Presley article to reflect this reality. --GHcool (talk) 16:28, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Intriguingly of course, the main Muhammad al-Durra article and this page as well both give considerable prominence or weight to exactly such unlikely claims in respect of that individual. --Nickhh (talk) 18:23, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Bias more generally

I also can't help noticing that when you get to the example sections towards the end of the article, they are heavily skewed one way. For example the "Frequently cited incidents" section flags up six supposed incidents - all of which are instances of allegedly unfair or even fraudulent "anti-Israel" reporting. The "Films .." section flags up three films, two of which are presented as if they were justifiably critical of Palestinians or the "anti-Israel" media, in that they carry no counter-criticism; by contrast the third is noted as being critical of pro-Israeli activist groups - but then in turn the bulk of the detail presented here about it is criticism of the film itself. If someone (maybe even me) could invest the time, there is plenty of evidence out there that could be built into this article relating to Israeli bids to control or mislead the media or to exploit its influence (as there is for any other government or group), and there is also plenty of evidence pointing to how the media can help generate misconceptions about the nature of the conflict. --Nickhh (talk) 19:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I believe I already addressed this in #Incidents of controversial media reporting above. I will save you the trouble of looking up there, though, by summarizing here what was already said there. Basically, I freely admit that I am more familiar with claims made by the pro-Israel watchdogs than with the claims made by pro-Palestinian watchdogs. I included the incidents with which I was familiar. After spending hours and hours on Google searching for similar claims made pro-Palestinian watchdogs, I gave up. If you are familiar with incidents of controversial reporting which are frequently cited by pro-Palestinian watchdogs, I would be more than glad to have them included in the article. Please be bold and include them. Likewise, if you know of other films pertaining to media coverage of the Arab-Israeli or Israeli-Palestinian conflicts -- whether these films are pro-Israel, pro-Palestinian, or neutral --, please feel free to add them to the article at any time; I would be glad to have them included. I hope I have answered your questions/concerns to your satisfaction. ← Michael Safyan 20:07, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

The problem in this article is that the "controversies" are artificial. The Grossman case is a simple slip-up, the significant "Media" element (if it's worth mentioning atall) is the fact that the NYT was forced to make 2 retractions. The article urgently needs a section comparing retractions in "both directions". (I don't actually recall any "to the Palestinians"). The significant "Media" element of the Independent case is that Israel has (apparently) lied over the white phosphorus use, and has denied using DU, when there is quite good evidence they not only used it, they used enriched uranium. When the US and the UK are using DU (and all share fairly similar technology) it's quite startling if Israel is not using it.

If you're genuine about putting in "Media" elements from the "opposite angle", then I'd suggest the business of the "Jenin Massacre", where the blogosphere seized on this element and claimed it had been disproved, managing to force first the US, then the English-speaking world's press to shut up on the topic. The off-stage clamour went on to smear the Palestinian spokesman so badly he's hardly ever been interviewed again (similar happened to Hanan Ashawi, who is actually a Christian). Nobody actually retracted what they'd said (easy enough to prove, the blogosphere bemoaned it). Almost nobody declared there'd been "No massacre" (though the BBC wrongly said "UN says no massacre in Jenin"), but the atmosphere of intimidation meant that the western media dare not use those words again. You'd never guess it, but there's even one (small) "up-against-the-wall" Nazi-style massacre in the RS, so both possible definitions of the word apply. PR 20:54, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

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