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• archive 1

A fresh start please

I'm happy with clearing the talk page. I'm not happy with voting. Wiki doesn't work by votes but by consensus. (Although there is often a consensus to decide certain specific questions by voting.) Since Ilkali's first change prompted the whole controversy, that's the fair place to start. (I accepted it wasn't fair to have my version as the default, it's only fair that argument works the other way around.)

Also, we're not really going back to scratch by starting at that point, because anyone's free to propose, say, the text I wrote on Hinduism be returned. We just compare diffs in the article history, copy it here, discuss it, modify it and add it. I'd probably agree to that suggestion, but maybe I wouldn't, we'd need to discuss it.

Since basically I wrote everything since Ilkali arrived, you could almost rebuild the article to any point you wanted by recommending blocks of text you'd have a fair chance of me agreeing to.

Think about it, if you agree, please you reset the article to the diff prior to Ilkali's arrival (27 April I think). Then feel free to delete my comments here, they're proceedural, not really addressing the article. If you don't agree, I guess I'll be making a couple of random reverts every 24 hours or so as a reminder that only consensus brings stability to an article. Until Ilkali arrived the article was stable but awful. Since then, I think some good work has been done, but it's never had consensus. Time to lock in some of that good work by giving it the endorsement of consensus. Alastair Haines (talk) 19:17, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

My opinion is unchanged ... we start from here. Abtract (talk) 19:34, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

And neither is mine ... we start from here. Alastair Haines (talk) 11:53, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Consensus time

To make things a little easier, it is probably worth applying this tag. Let's play by the rules. No changes until we discuss them. Until everyone agrees, no changes. Alastair Haines (talk) 17:28, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Until everyone agrees, no changes from your preferred version of the article? How is that different from before you were blocked? Ilkali (talk) 17:26, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I will leave your comment Ilkali, because it shows you are insisting on addressing editors rather than the text of the article. Your behaviour at this page has been disruptive for two reasons, you make edits without seeking agreement first (there are dozens of diffs to prove this). And you address editors not sources and text (plenty of text proves this too). I will digress no further. Issues with editors should be on talk pages or other forums. I shall remove my own comments about you eventually, because you and I are irrelevant to the article.

I will restore the page to the point prior to Ilkali's arrival, and see where we go from there. Any text added since that point can be recovered and added here for discussion. Comments about other editors are not welcome.

Looking forward to suggestions for improvements to the article, it needs heaps. I'll not be adding anything myself for a couple of months, but I'll take an active interest in the meantime. Perhaps Ilkali would like to get the ball rolling. How do you think things could be improved? Alastair Haines (talk) 18:01, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

"I will leave your comment Ilkali, because it shows you are insisting on addressing editors rather than the text of the article". When editors are the problem, editors must be addressed. And did you seriously follow this sentence...

"Your behaviour at this page has been disruptive for two reasons" ...with this one?

I've already argued for replacing the lead text. Abtract also forwarded a candidate, which I endorse over yours. My issues with yours are, again: 1) It is not specific to God, despite the article being titled 'Gender of God'. 2) 'in a God' is either a violation of the MoS (capitalised common noun) or a clumsier, semantically equivalent version of 'in God'. 3) The metonymy in 'religions believe' is jarring.

You asserted that Abtract's version commits OR and POV violations but didn't ever substantiate this claim. I ask you now to do so. Ilkali (talk) 18:33, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

All your points have been previously refuted by sources, Ilkali. Read the archive "Problems with the lead". As for Abtacts' proposal, the burden of proof is on the poster. No sources were offered for "most religions believe God is male" for example. I'm sure that's just wrong. No source, no text. Alastair Haines (talk) 11:53, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

"All your points have been previously refuted by sources, Ilkali". Nope. In all cases you either attacked a position I didn't hold or cited a source that didn't support your claim. If you want to build consensus, you'll have to do more than just insist that you're right.

"As for Abtacts' proposal, the burden of proof is on the poster". The default assumption isn't that every contribution violates every policy. When you claim that some material contains original research or expresses a POV, you must either support that claim or be prepared for it to be ignored.

"No sources were offered for "most religions believe God is male" for example". That's a false quote. The actual text is "The gender of God has generally been considered to be male". The two do not mean the same thing.

Freezing the article in an early state isn't something that should be done lightly, and it should certainly last for as little time as possible. Since you are refusing to discuss the criticisms I raise, and thereby lengthening this process, I agree with Abtract that it should remain unfrozen. We can always change it back later if consensus swings your way. Ilkali (talk) 12:48, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I also object to freezing, especially freezing back to a much earlier state. Overall the article looks much better than it used to. There are many uncontroversial improvements that have nothing to do with any dispute over the intro. Also, nobody owns this article. --Alynna (talk) 13:51, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Looks like we all agree about two things. We all want the article to go forward (not be freezed). We all agree that the article can be improved. Next step is agreeing on how it can be improved.

The main thing is, wherever we start, we only move forward with everyone's agreement (consensus), not by any individual or subgroup "owning" the step. In other words, it doesn't matter who ends up making an edit, because all have agreed and would be willing to make it anyway.

There are two fair options for where we start. Either A) minimial position -- the position prior to any dispute OR B) the maximal position -- text that includes everything currently under dispute. The former is simpler, since there is no consensus about what revision reflects the latter. It is also simpler to move forward, because slabs of consensus text can be added from the edit history, after being confirmed as having everyone's agreement here. (The updated Hinduism and Sikhism sections, for example.)

The only things potentially "freezing" this text would be: A) no one actually proposing this text (or any other text) OR B) attempts to add more than actually reflects consensus (which is attempting to "own" and bypass consensus, or, assuming better faith, just "clumsiness").

So, Alynna, can you actually propose anything specific, that already has consensus, to back your claim that consensus changes have been made. (I agree with you in general, but perhaps we're thinking of different parts of the article.)

And Ilkali, please stop returning disputed text to the article without consensus. Instead, propose parts of the revision you prefer for consensus here first. Alastair Haines (talk) 11:41, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Some uncontroversial edits of my own (I did not say "consensus", because I just did them without getting your permission discussing it on the talk page. It would not be realistic for every change ever made to be discussed beforehand.) include:

• Adding the New American Bible to the list of translations of John 16:13
• Moving the "Branch Davidians and other" section under Christianity, after the one sentence not about Christianity was moved to Judaism.

There is no proof that everyone agrees on your favourite old version, so you can't claim it's a "consensus version". Going back there would be a HUGE step backwards. You appear to be the only person who has a major problem with the current incarnation of the article. Therefore, it is you who should suggest incremental changes, to the current version. --Alynna (talk) 12:44, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

There is no "current" version Alynna, whatever alternative is proposed as current is challenged by one person or another.

Looks like it is only Ilkali who would be delaying consensus on your two changes above, then, since I don't object to them. I don't think we need additional translations of John 16:13, but I'm happy to wait six months until a passing editor complains there are too many copies, and agree to trim them then.

Anyway, if Ilkali agrees to your changes above, we have consensus, and they become part of the new, "consensus" version. Alastair Haines (talk) 21:56, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

"Looks like it is only Ilkali who would be delaying consensus on your two changes above, then". Ilkali isn't the one insisting on freezing the article! I am fine with any of the edits up to the version three out of four editors prefer. We do not need to painstakingly confirm consensus for these kinds of changes. Ilkali (talk) 08:14, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

"The main thing is, wherever we start, we only move forward with everyone's agreement (consensus)". Consensus doesn't mean that everybody agrees - otherwise any single person could indefinitely lock any article in a state he preferred. Let me ask you: Under what circumstances would you allow the article to be changed in a way that you disagree with?

As for the content discussion, there are already specific issues raised above, such as my criticisms of your lead. If you don't want to discuss them, I question the point of this exercise. Ilkali (talk) 12:51, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

You continue to address editors rather than issues, Ilkali. Consensus does mean anyone can object to a change because they present a case against the change. It is, in fact, no different to what you have been enforcing since your arrival at the page by reverting anything you disapprove of. Only now, by invoking the "dispute mode", it ensures the discussion remains documented on the talk page, not a matter of editors using numbers to force an edit.

It is an important and fair part of the process, that ensures no one's imput is discounted, nor anyone "railroaded". Alastair Haines (talk) 22:10, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

"You continue to address editors rather than issues, Ilkali". What issues did you address in this post, Alastair? Did you address the issues I raised in my first comment in this section? The ones you still haven't addressed? Again, I question the point of this exercise.

Answer the question, Alastair. Under what circumstances would you allow the article to remain in the state that is currently preferred by three out of four involved editors, assuming you don't suddenly start preferring it? What would it take for you to stop edit warring? If the answer is 'nothing' then we have a problem that your purported attempts at consensus-building cannot ever solve. Ilkali (talk) 08:14, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Clarification

Versions of this article:

1. 16 June — fullest text — disputed
2. 22 June — shorter text — disputed
3. 27 April — version prior to dispute

The edit history shows a number of editors reverting to the shorter text version. This has been done with little use of the talk page. When talk has been used, no attempt has been made to address objections or cite reliable sources.

The controversy tag on the page, and other standard Wiki policies make clear, that we are to seek consensus by:

• addressing issues of content raised by those who disagree with us; and
• to do this with reference to reliable sources.

While some may want to "fast-forward" to the "fullest text" so far as at 16 June, this is disputed, so has not been attempted. Others, however, have wanted to "rewind" some of that "fullest" text, while still "fast-forwarding" to 22 June, but have done so without addressing issues or seeking consensus. Warnings have been noted at User talk.

The first attempt to seek consensus by providing sourced text is being offered by me below. Perhaps it will be rejected, such is life. I look forward to others offering their own proposals for consensus, along with the sources that they are following.Alastair Haines (talk) 18:20, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

"When talk has been used, no attempt has been made to address objections or cite reliable sources". Not true. People have explained what is wrong with your lead (see the three points I raised above) and they've explained why the article shouldn't be frozen. Your mention of reliable sources is a red herring, as most of the issues are 1) stylistic, 2) regarding the purview of the article, or 3) over the relevance of some material. What kind of reliable source would you like for something like 'Alastair's essay is not about the gender of God'?

To reiterate: You are the only one out of four involved editors who thinks the article should be frozen in an earlier state. It is not tenable. If this happened every time a single editor disagreed with the change, and continued without limit until that single editor were satisfied, Misplaced Pages would collapse. Accept that the majority are against you, argue for the superiority of your version, and restore it if you get consensus.

I ask again: Under what circumstances would you allow the article to remain in the state that is currently preferred by three out of four involved editors, assuming you don't suddenly start preferring it? What would it take for you to stop edit warring? Ilkali (talk) 18:32, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

First sourced proposal

Let's start moving forward. Here's a sourced proposal, seeking comment from other editors. Does anyone have any objection to the following text to replace the current text on Hinduism? The source noted is Michael Witzel, 'Autochthonous Aryans? The Evidence from Old Indian and Iranian Texts', Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies 7 (2001): 1–118.

The oldest of the Hindu scriptures is the Rigveda (2nd millennium BC). The first word of the Rigveda is the name Agni, the god of fire, to whom many of the vedic hymns are addressed, along with Indra the warrior. Agni and Indra are both male divinities.

The Rigveda refers to a creator (Hiranyagarbha or Prajapati), distinct from Agni and Indra. This creator is identified with Brahma, first of the gods, in later scriptures. Hiranyagarbha and Prajapati are male divinities, as is Brahma (who has a female consort, Saraswati).

There are many other gods in the Rigveda. They are "not simple forces of nature" and possess "complex character and their own mythology". They include goddesses of water (Āpaḥ) and dawn (Uṣas), and the complementary pairing of Father Heaven and Mother Earth. However, they are all "subservient to the abstract, but active positive 'force of truth'" (Rta), "which pervades the universe and all actions of the gods and humans." This force is sometimes mediated or represented by moral gods (Āditya such as Varuṇa) or even Indra. The Āditya are male and Rta is personified as masculine in later scriptures (see also Dharma).

There are some Hindu sects, such as Shakta and Tantra, that have a well-developed philosophy of a mother goddess, and literature that harmonizes this to greater or lesser extents with vedic and other traditions. In these traditions, Shiva is often conceived of as the consort of Shakti, rather than vice versa.

In some Hindu philosophical traditions, Brahma is depersonalized (and demasculinized) as Brahman, the fundamental life force of the universe.

Alastair Haines (talk) 17:40, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

The text on Hinduism is not the problem, Alastair! The major disagreements are over the lead and your section on comparative religion, and you have consistently abstained from discussing either. Your case for indefinitely freezing the article is so full of holes now that even you must realise it was a bad idea. Do me a favor and stop edit-warring over it before I have to go to the trouble of reporting you. Ilkali (talk) 17:48, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Hinduism is not the problem. Yes, the disagreements are over the lead and comparative religion (and gender). No, I have discussed those, it is you (and others) who assert, vote and edit without engaging with content. I have never suggested freezing the article, it is you (and others) who seek to freeze valid edits by reverting. I have never edit warred, only restored sourced or verifiable content that has been removed without consensus. You (and others) have edit warred, by reverting verifiable content without seeking consensus. I have now flagged the page for mediation cabal involvement. Alastair Haines (talk) 18:46, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

"No, I have discussed those, it is you (and others) who assert, vote and edit without engaging with content". If you're talking about the discussions you and I had way back before you called me a troll and stormed out, then you obviously can't deny that I've engaged with content - else who were you talking to back then? And if you're talking about anything since then, then... where?

"I have never suggested freezing the article". Perhaps you are interpreting the term differently to how I intend it. You are insisting on keeping the article in an old state until some specified event occurs. That is what I call freezing.

"I have never edit warred, only restored sourced or verifiable content that has been removed without consensus". You have persistently reverted both the article and its talk page to states you prefer, and you were even blocked for doing so. Insisting that it doesn't count as edit warring because you're right and we're wrong isn't going to impress or convince anybody. Ilkali (talk) 19:34, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Ilkali, this is my last post to you, until a mediator is here to hold you accountable for your claims. It was your actions, more than your words, that was troll like when I warned you the first time. History has only demonstrated that others have joined you in what are clearly disruptive edits to this article. You (and others), are quite entitled to dispute the fullest version of this article (16 June), but not to insist on your own version (22 June), without discussing content. It is by forcing the dispute you make the version prior to your arrival (27 April) the point of departure, but that's only a freeze if you're unwilling to discuss matters of content with editors who have objections to the content of your opinions. And indeed, you have never reverted the artcile to anything except versions you prefer. On the other hand, I surrendered my own preference in favour of a genuinely neutral version — the one prior to our own disagreement. Those are the verifiable facts. I'll also document here your early 3rr violation, which I chose not to report, since you are so new to Wiki. Editing other's posts is also a no-no, except in special circumstances.

• 01:13, 27 May 2008 Ilkali
• 01:08, 27 May 2008 Ilkali
• 17:34, 26 May 2008 Ilkali
• 03:06, 26 May 2008 Ilkali

I take it that you genuinely don't understand how Wiki works, hence, you are being disruptive, but this is mitigated by inexperience and by the encouragement of others. Your disparaging comments, however, have been consistent, starting with "guff" in your first post, and "Christians and Jews don't know what a common noun is", "Trinitarian language is an abuse of language", etc. in follow-ups. But your main problem is misunderstanding not only the linguistics, but the meaning of ad hominem, you genuinely feel attacks on a person can be valid arguments against what they say. You have been pointed to sources on this, but still refuse to accept it.

Although I try to give space for this to be about content, it is sadly true that it is, and always has been, about Ilkali's disruptive edits and personal attacks, both of which are verified, not by my opinion (or anyone else's), but by your own actions and words.

It takes time for volunteer mediators to arrive. You could save everyone a lot of time by thinking through how you could have done things better. I'd be thrilled to work with you if you could take responsibility and admit your mistakes.

As always, I expect you will have the last word, and it will involve an attack on me to distract from your own actions. Go ahead, I can't stop you. Alastair Haines (talk) 20:29, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

"Your disparaging comments, however, have been consistent, starting with "guff" in your first post, and "Christians and Jews don't know what a common noun is", "Trinitarian language is an abuse of language", etc. in follow-ups". Don't you think it's misleading to put quote marks around something that isn't a quotation? If you want to refer to something I've said, use the actual text, and provide at least the entire sentence.

"your main problem is misunderstanding not only the linguistics ". Cheap shots, Alastair. If you want to discuss the linguistics, I'm more than willing. I've spent enough time studying the subject (while earning my first-class degree) that I welcome opportunities to apply it in real life. But you're not. You won't ever go beyond cheap shots.

"but the meaning of ad hominem". In future, if you cite these things, can you provide the diffs so everyone can just read the counter-arguments I wrote at the time? It's tedious to have to explain twice why you're wrong when once would do.

"you genuinely feel attacks on a person can be valid arguments against what they say". Any evidence to support this?

I have no intention of "distract from actions". On the contrary, I invite you to shine a spotlight on them. Give us the diffs that so conclusively prove your accusations, or stop making them and start talking about the article. I'm still waiting for at least one of: 1) you justifying the inclusion of your recently-removed sections on comparative religion and such, or 2) you defending your lead against the three criticisms raised above. Ilkali (talk) 21:03, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I simply note here that Ilkali again proves my point. He has just made a wholesale revision that includes removing sourced text, and he did so without any attempt to build consensus or support his edit with sources. It also includes permitting a lead that makes claims that are not supported by sources either in the lead itself, nor at any point in the whole article. It is not an accurate summary of the text, and is actually contrary to prior versions of the article.

Additionally, although he claims he is misquoted, the sense of his words is accurate in context as can be seen from the Archived Problems with the lead. In fact, I have chosen his least objectionable language. He also says, Do you seriously not recognise the distinction between adherents of a religion and the religion itself? (later using stronger language), an unfair criticism of the many sources that use metonomy, but expressed as a personal attack.

He also appeals to his own authority (for the first time, though); however, that doesn't change the fact that the Oxford dictionary and published journal articles have been cited that demonstrate his claims do not hold.

Specifically, God is capitalized when refering to the "One Supreme Being" (OED). It refers to a superhuman person whether capitalized or not (OED). Groups are spoken of as believing regularly in the literature (see archive for half a dozen examples, taken from pages of Google scholar hits in journal articles), according to a well-documented device of language (see links in archive).

As long as sourced content is being removed (three sentences of Gender have three sources, sourced text in God is also being removed), and reversions are being made to disputed revisions, Ilkali (or anyone else) is "freezing" the article and disrupting progress. There is consensus that such behaviour is unacceptable.

With my next edits, I'll be adding a few sources to the full version of the article. I'd wait for consensus, but there's no rule against providing sources for text. This seems like a creative way of addressing expressed concerns and moving things forward. Other editors are welcomed to add sources and sourced text despite the dispute, I will do my best to gently guard against others simply reverting to an old version they prefer, without having attempted gain consensus for their removal of sourced and verifiable content. Cheerio. Alastair Haines (talk) 21:47, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Not addressing me directly doesn't mean you're not replying to me, Alastair.

"He has just made a wholesale revision that includes removing sourced text, and he did so without any attempt to build consensus or support his edit with sources". Every person other than you agrees that this is the version of the article that should be taken forward. There was even a talk page section about your essays, which I see you haven't replied to. Where did you gain consensus for including them in the first place? You didn't. You inserted them without discussion and ignored all claims that they were off-topic. Double standards, Alastair?

"the Oxford dictionary and published journal articles have been cited that demonstrate his claims do not hold". As I already said, I'm not interested in rehashing old refutations. Drop the cheap shots and let people read the archive and decide for themselves.

"Specifically, God is capitalized (OED). It refers to a superhuman person whether capitalized or not (OED)". This I will address, since it's directly relevant to the article. The MoS clearly states that common noun god (as in "many religions believe in a god") should not be capitalised. Even if the OED did support your position (it doesn't - go back to our earlier discussion for explanation of how you've misinterpreted it), it doesn't matter because the MoS is definitive here.

"Groups are spoken of as believing regularly in the literature". Irrelevant, since religions aren't groups. My claim is not that the metonymy in "religions believe" is somehow illegal or incomprehensible - just that it is clumsy, in the same way that "Judaism doesn't eat pork" is clumsy. Finding some uses of it in literature does not in any way support the claim that it is not poor style. Ilkali (talk) 22:04, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

1. ^ Michael Witzel, 'Autochthonous Aryans? The Evidence from Old Indian and Iranian Texts', Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies 7 (2001): 1–118.

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