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Kirill statement

The announcements made today by FT2 (including both the Orangemarlin issue and the various other matters) were posted without the approval or prior knowledge of the Committee as a whole. Further, no formal proceeding, secret or otherwise, has taken place regarding Orangemarlin or any other editor named in that particular statement.

As far as I'm concerned, these announcements have no authority or binding weight whatsoever.

Not on behalf of anyone but myself, Kirill 21:45, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Wow. Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 21:45, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Wow also. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk ♦ contribs) @ 21:46, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Cat well and truly among pigeons. Wow indeed. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 21:48, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

(ec x3) Oh. Second the wow. And categorically withdraw any comments which indicate concern about precedents and/or ArbCom as a whole. KillerChihuahua 21:48, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

At least they now know how the community will act. Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 21:50, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

"Wow" doesn't begin to describe it. Truth is indeed stranger than fiction... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:51, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

A couple of editors, including myself have notified User:FT2 of this thread. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk ♦ contribs) @ 21:55, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

• Endorse "wow". Friday (talk) 21:52, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
  • I hereby see your Wows, and raise you one WTF-T2. Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 21:55, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
• Wow to infinity. MBisanz 21:56, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
• This should be almost superfluous, but I see this as immediate grounds for desysopping and expulsion from the committee, if this is true. This would be an unprecedented abuse and manipulation of authority. I'm truly stunned, and I hope that there is some sort of explanation for this that doesn't involve malfeasance and deceit. FCYTravis (talk) 22:03, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

• Let's not be hasty. Naerii 22:06, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

• As I said, I hope there's a good explanation for this. But... holy Gods, we've now got an intra-ArbCom war on our hands. Shocking and depressing, to say the least. Kirill's statement above does not leave much room for other options, unless he's lying too. My head just asplode. A sad day for the encyclopedia. FCYTravis (talk) 22:10, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

• Um. Naerii 22:02, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I beg to differ. This could be a case of Really Bad Misunderstanding. Shall we not judge FT2 without hearing his version, please? (the irony is palpable, is it not?) KillerChihuahua 22:04, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, Killer, that's too much! What a belly laugh. I'm going home now with that one. Stellar. Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 22:05, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Would note FT2 said he would be back tomorrow here. Davewild (talk) 22:08, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

(e/c)

Please don't cry for blood until FT2 has had a chance to explain.

That said -- OMFG teh dramazzzz!!!!! --Jaysweet (talk) 22:09, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I come to AN/I to look for drama, because I find it interesting. I guess I hit the mother lode today. Dr. eXtreme 22:15, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, you mean as opposed to the chance I didn't get. I guess that's fair. OrangeMarlin 22:11, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

FWIW, I have always studiously avoided any anti-OrangeMarlin pile-ons. I don't always feel great about 100% of your edits, but as you've heard me say before, I value the work you do immensely, and I think you get way too much flack for every single misstep.

So, just because others have called for you to be prematurely crucified does not, in my mind, reduce my credibility in asking that some of those not also be prematurely crucified. Yikes, that was a mouthful... well, you get my meaning :) --Jaysweet (talk) 22:15, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

(e/c)

The proverbial excreta is indeed heading fanward, time to duck and cover. RMHED (talk) 22:12, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

• Hey I got a nice ride on my bike OrangeMarlin 22:10, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
  • What the hell just happened?! bibliomaniac15 22:14, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

What is going on? If this true Ft2 should probably been dearbcomed. If it is not the whole truth that can at least the basic facts being added: like who of arbitrators accepted the case, who recused, who was not present, etc. It surely do not violate any possible privacy issues involved. Alex Bakharev (talk) 22:16, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

• (ec) So can we assume that John Vandenberg was directed by FT2 to post the announcement regarding the Orangemarlin "case," then? It seems odd that an ArbCom clerk would post something without previous knowledge, but not being knowledgeable about the inner workings over there, could be feasible, I suppose. I note that Kirill makes this statement specifically on his own hook - I think we need a blunt statement from ArbCom as a whole as to what the hell this has been all about, considering the zOMG DRAMAZ it's generated. Tony Fox (arf!) 22:17, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

While I certainly don't pretend to know exactly what is going on here, I had the impression something was seriously wrong yesterday on seeing this edit. Note the edit summary: "misunderstanding (not all discussion is held on the main arb-l)". If it isn't then where the heck is it happening? Risker (talk) 22:20, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Huh? Well, I can offer an educated guess. --Irpen 22:23, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

This "without the approval or prior knowledge of the Committee as a whole." makes me think Kirill didn't even know about it. — Rlevse • Talk • 00:05, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Archiving? Sigh

As if we have not been there, some are trying to "archive" the active discussion. This is plain silly and had never helped calming anything. Ridiculous. --Irpen 22:37, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Formal request for clarification submitted

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration#Secretive hearings: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Orangemarlin submitted. I think it is best to continue this discussion at the related talk page. This looks to me as a disgrace but then again, I may be wrong. Let's see what comes out of this request. --Irpen 21:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Has FT2's account been compromised?

Given the extraordinary circumstances, I think it is important to ascertain if FT2 is in possession of his account at this moment, or if it has been compromised. Antelan 22:10, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I would suggest a CheckUser take a look at his recent contribs to see if the IPs have suddenly changed... FCYTravis (talk) 22:12, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

No, its not compromised. The suggestion isn't even credible. Avruch 22:18, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Oops... And here I go following up on it by filing an RFCU. Silly rabbit. Antelan 22:24, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Compromised? And no one on the entire arbcom noticed for almost a whole day? Hmmm. . . R. Baley (talk) 22:19, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Grassy Knoll Theory: Kirill's account has been compromised. :p

Seriously, though, people, until we hear more from FT2 and/or the rest of ArbCom, all of this is pointless speculation -- no matter how juicy we may all find it. --Jaysweet (talk) 22:23, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Although I'm withholding any final opinion, it would surprise me if another person could imitate FT2's prose style so long or so well. Durova 22:43, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Given the circumstances and the concerns here, I ran a checkuser. The answer is that, no, FT2's account is not compromised. Let's not cause unnecessary drama here, folks - Alison 22:42, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. I think that should assuage some of the drama. Antelan 22:44, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Confirming my account is not compromised. As Durova says - wording style if nothing else. Comment below. FT2  23:33, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

... Style AND length! ++Lar: t/c 23:40, 27 June 2008 (UTC) (runs)

Yes, only Filll is more verbose than FT2... --Dragon695 (talk) 00:46, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Has anyone considered suspending ArbCom until this is all worked out?

As it says, ArbCom seems to have lost community confidence and are now involved in warring among themselves. It might be the best course of action to ask ArbCom to suspend themselves or ask Jimbo to suspend ArbCom until this is all straightened out. Bstone (talk) 22:21, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh for heaven's sake, no, that would be a bit much. Just wait, and I am sure all will be made clear in due course. KillerChihuahua 22:25, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, why don't we all have a nice cup of tea while we wait for some more clarification by various (and potentially future former) arbcom members? There's nothing we can do, after all, apart from staring in surprise at our screens. --Conti|✉ 22:27, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Funny you should say that, I actually did just make a cup of tea. And yes I agree, there's no need to go rushing into anything. Let's not respond to one bad decision with another bad decision. Naerii 22:29, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Activation of view-deleted-pages

The more I think about it, the less I like this idea. As proposed, it is far too easy to game. Sensitive information is at stake here; it would throw the door wide open to exploitation and has been proffered with no community input whatsoever. Per Kirill's post I wonder whether this was offered with any actual authority. Please clarify; if this is indeed serious I oppose this in the strongest terms--both its practical implications and the method of proposal are entirely inappropriate. Durova 22:27, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I guess this proposition will need to go through extensive polling discussion somewhere before we act, anyway. -- lucasbfr 22:34, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I believe this has been proposed in the past, and even the ability for non-admins to see their own deleted contributions or just a list without having access to the content was shot down. Mr.Z-man 23:08, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Well it merits revisiting. This is a great idea and it will lighten the DRV load I suspect. --Dragon695 (talk) 23:16, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Only if oversight powers are broadened and used far more commonly. Much of what is deleted is completely inappropriate for anyone to see - private information, libel, personal attacks, etc. FCYTravis (talk) 00:08, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/June 2008 announcements

Was this a unilateral action as well, much like the OM case? If so this just adds to the problems, as it is an FT2 post from today. Wizardman 22:37, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I have blanked the page due to questions concerning the validity of all the announcements. R. Baley (talk) 22:39, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

What about all those subpages and the Orangemarlin case? I propose that we don't touch anything until we actually know what the heck is going on. --Conti|✉ 22:41, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

We have one arbitrator saying the announcement was "on behalf of the ArbCom" and the other (speaking only on his own behalf) saying it was not. Aside from the necessity of getting FT2's explanation, other arbitrators should also clarify whether they feel this was agreed upon. Perhaps no process took place at all, perhaps an inadequate process took place, or perhaps it was a perfectly adequate process—we don't know due to the ArbCom's habitual secrecy. Everyking (talk) 22:44, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Either way it's a lot more entertaing than anything on the TV at the moment. RMHED (talk) 22:47, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Just making sure that no one tries to enforce anything or take any other action based on the "announcements". What to do with the rest will become clearer as the dust settles. R. Baley (talk) 22:49, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Since this is about me, wouldn't it be "fair", and nothing has been fair today, why wouldn't we remove all of the pages about this? OrangeMarlin 22:49, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I suggest userfying them all to FT2's space. --Irpen 22:52, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

WOW AND WTF! Something's ROTTEN in Denmark. — Rlevse • Talk • 22:53, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I suggest leaving everything alone until the rest of the arbcom and FT2 respond. Naerii 22:54, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I have courtesy blanked Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Orangemarlin pending arbcom deciding what it wants to do with it. Call it a BLP blanking or something. --B (talk) 22:55, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

And I have undone it, this kind of action isn't what's needed to fix this issue. SirFozzie (talk) 22:58, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I think blanking wasn't necessarily a good idea. I second the idea to let this chill till more clarity is in the offing... more arbcom members, FT2, anything would be helpful. ++Lar: t/c 23:06, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Don't Panic. The ArbCom is capable of deleting, editing or blanking pages they do not wish to be out in the open. I suggest that everyone just leave the status quo the way it is, and let them sort themselves out. Jehochman 23:01, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

(ec) And reformatting my hard drive isn't going to cook a pizza. I never said that blanking it would resolve the question of whether or not it was authorized by arbcom. What blanking it does do is remove libel from sites that mirror Misplaced Pages content. If we would have the good sense to only open up article space to search engines, then it wouldn't matter, but as it is, there are a lot of claims there about OrangeMarlin that one arbiter has just disavowed. We normally blank or delete libel. --B (talk) 23:03, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

The only libel on that page is in quotes from OM. LaraLove|Talk 01:22, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

• If in doubt, do nowt. RMHED (talk) 23:07, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Exactly. If anyone has a problem with any of these pages, make a polite request and wait for the appropriate action to be taken. This will help prevent edit warring, wheel warring, and the formation of naked singularities. Jehochman 23:10, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
    • FYI, we already have a don't panic here. --Dragon695 (talk) 23:14, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

OrangeMarlin/Odd Nature Case Spot On

I dunno what is going on with those other proposals, but the OrangeMarlin and Odd Nature case has been a long time coming. It basically solves half the ID RFC problems in one fell swoop, I suspect FT2 was being WP:BOLD. Of course it requires review, but I think it seems best for the community if these two users were given those remedies. --Dragon695 (talk) 23:09, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

• Is it seemly that what seems best is seemingly carried out secretly? RMHED (talk) 23:13, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
  • In spirit I understand your concerns, as I have been a vocal critic of secret hearings for the undesirables on WP (pedos, 9/11 truthers, etc). However, there does seem like some poetic justice in them getting a taste of what they did to poor old Moulton, which is to deny him due process. These folk have been very stubborn at the RFC in admitting any problems with their bad attitudes and I think this kind of thing was coming sooner rather than later. Just my opinion, though. --Dragon695 (talk) 23:25, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Really? I think it would be best for the community if this dispute were handled like every other dispute in the history of Misplaced Pages. Instead, one ArbCom member compiles "evidence" which is mostly personal commentary on an editor - if I presented "evidence" like that at an ArbCom case, I'd rightly be told to stuff it and confine myself to diffs instead of argumentation.

I won't touch the issue of whether he actually spoke for the Committee, some portion of it, or only himself without more information, but even if it were a unanimous ArbCom action, it sucks. There's absolutely nothing dramatically different or worse about this dispute than dozens of others handled by the usual means. I've seen cases much worse than this, with much more drama and real-world impact, handled in the open, and I'm happy to list examples if anyone doubts it.

Is it April Fools' Day already? This sort of thing would never have happened if Newyorkbrad was still around. MastCell  23:17, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

As I mention above, I do share some of your concerns. Process is very important to me, but with Filll always filibustering the discussions with his long-winded dialog, it is very difficult to talk without talking past each other. Like I said, I think it bears some review and further discussion. If anything, this happening might be the inertia needed to inspire behavior change or depature if that is not possible. --Dragon695 (talk) 23:29, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

In reply to your question about secret cases, the biggest problem with secret cases is that there probably isn't an admin or long term user on the site that doesn't have one or two actions that, without context, look not all that spectacular. Now some of it may be very bad stuff that needs to be dealt with, but there needs to be an opportunity to explain your actions before sentence is handed down. Private consideration of controversial cases isn't necessarily bad, and may be a good thing in that it can keep us from having a big wikidrama, but in this case, OM was not notified of the case or allowed to present evidence in his defense. That's the problem. It's also a VERY big problem that arbcom is defending "white pride". If you are a racist, you have no business pushing racism here. White pride is inherently racist. Our own article on the subject is in Category:Racism. If you are into "white pride" and don't see that viewing your race as better than somebody else's race is a problem, then that's a you problem. --B (talk) 23:33, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

It is quite the leap to draw the conclusion that Arbcom is defending "white pride" from any of this, I must say. I was nodding, thinking, ya I may not totally agree but it's well reasoned thinking, till I got to that part. Really, how is that conclusion supported? And if questioning that leap of logic makes ME a racist in your eyes, boy are you confused. ++Lar: t/c 23:39, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Have you read the evidence page? It isn't mentioned on the arbitration page itself, but on Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Orangemarlin/Evidence, about half of the real estate concerns the DHMO/undertow/etc "white pride" thing. "Part 1" of the evidence is about nothing but questioning OM for opposing DHMO's RFA over DHMO's defense of "white pride". There is no evidence of any incivil behaviour there - only that he opposed someone who was a supporter of white pride. I'm all for presenting actual evidence of wrongdoing if someone wants to do it, but calling a supporter of "white pride" a racist is no more incivil than calling a doctor who works on people's teeth a "dentist". --B (talk) 23:47, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I read the evidence. The conclusion I reached from that evidence squared with my recollection of events as they unfolded, and squared with the findings of ArbCom (putative findings of a putative ArbCom?)... to wit, OM was flinging around scurrilous accusations and making unsupportable leaps of logic about who supported what and who defended what, and using that tactic to poison discussions. Incivilly. Perhaps we read different evidence pages? ++Lar: t/c 00:01, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry B, but Lar is correct on this one. OM was out of control during that RFA, as were most members of the ID cabal. I don't think the_undertow is a racist and for so many to be clamoring that he is seems rediculous. Do you even know him? Can you make such accusations without knowing him? That was the point of Giggy's blog post, to point out the rush to judgement by people who think they can read hearts and minds. --Dragon695 (talk) 00:17, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

This is a microscopic view, but I am bothered by the fact that my name is mentioned (albeit only once, in passing) in

There is no evidence of any incivil behaviour there. That's pathetic. What a horribly blind comment. LaraLove|Talk 01:37, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Calm down all

This seems like one huge misunderstanding. Knowing FT2 - he wouldn't post something unless there was support for it on the mailing list, neither would he go to so much effort. I suspect that there's some miscommunication here. I suggest we all step back and wait for either ArbCom to communicate as a collective or further comments from Kirill and FT2. It appears FT2 is away at the minute, so let's all take a step back and wait for further comments - Everyone is innocent until proven guilty right? We're not in possesion of the full facts, so let's wait till we get them. Ryan Postlethwaite 23:20, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

"Everyone is innocent until proven guilty right?" No, not on Misplaced Pages. We are a notable exception. Al Tally 23:29, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Maybe, maybe not, but Ryan gives good advice anyway. Clarity is needed. We don't have that. That should be sought as a much higher priority than the rest of what is going on here. ++Lar: t/c 23:35, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, this needs to get sorted out. I doubt FT2 would do this without consensus from the committee but Kirill obviously had a reason to react the way he did. We'll know soon enough. Now that the initial shock and drama is settling down, let's let the processes work. — Rlevse • Talk • 00:02, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Question for Kirill

Kirill, if I may ask (I don't suppose you would drop a bombshell like this and then switch off and go to bed), what communication did you receive from ArbCom regarding these matters, if any? Did they circulate any requests for comment? Are you saying that you were out of the loop entirely? Or, maybe, were you travelling, perhaps, as it says on your user page, and not contactable by any means? Could you clarify? Many thanks in advance, AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 23:21, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Phrased alternatively, though you say there were no formal proceedings, were there informal ones? Antelan 23:37, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

See my comment in the section below for the semantics of the Orangemarlin matter, specifically. As for the other announcements, they're a mix:

• Matters for which the proposals submitted to the Committee are substantially different from the final announcement.
• Matters which enjoy support in principle but for which concrete proposals have not been made.
• Matters which have been discussed but do not enjoy significant support.
• Matters which were never mentioned to the Committee in any form.

(Some of these groups overlap, obviously.) Kirill 00:57, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment

(This will be brief, I'm away from home at friends, who are behind me watching a film. If I don't follow up immediately, and have not read everything posted, I will tomorrow on returning home.)

The matters concerned were dealt with by the arbitration committee, and will ultimately need sorting out there. Broadly speaking, I have rechecked my memory and notes, and believe the matters discussed had clear consensus by the committee. It will be noticed that Kirill writes, "As far as I'm concerned, these announcements have no authority or binding weight whatsoever. Not on behalf of anyone but myself." Kirill is correct in what he says, so far as it goes. It goes so far as to say Kirill himself feels the decisions were lacking, and that may well be the case -- how he feels. It may not be how it is. I am not going to engage in a circus here. Rather, I imagine there will be some extensive discussion on between people, and a view will be affirmed one way or the other.

I do not feel the matters were lacking consensus. But if events prove me wrong then I will accept it, and if events prove me wrong and there is also belief that any action was grossly misplaced, I will do what is best, whether that be to accept it, to state an apology of any kind, or more serious steps, and I will do so without backward look or hesitation, trusting that come what may, the community will use such material and insights as it can whether formal or otherwise.

But I will say that within the current system of the Committee's internal decision making, the resulting decisions posted, if not every detail of the process, were carefully checked for consensus, and that Arbitration decisions have always been far more about the final decisions being substantially appropriate, than the details of their arrival there. I therefore hope to see the posting of this as a decision, in the main substantiated, and will have to catch up on the rest of this on returning home, making good any shortcomings of this brief note.

FT2  23:31, 27 June 2008 (UTC) s

"Arbitration decisions have always been far more about the final decisions being substantially appropriate, than the details of their arrival there." <-- Apparently, you may be surprised by what the community actually thinks about that statement. In other words, process matters. What was it about this case that necessitated, or even merited, a closed-door secret proceeding? Presuming that this proceeding was even valid, precisely how was this so urgent that you felt compelled to announce it with such haste that there was no time for other arbitrators such as Kirill to vette it beforehand? Antelan 23:36, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

(ec)Your picking apart semantics of Kirill's statement seems to contradict labeling every finding as "nemine contradicente", meaning, unanimous consent. If Kirill objected to anything before this moment or did not have the opportunity to object to anything before this moment, then there is not unanimous consent. At most one of you is correct. --B (talk) 23:37, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

(briefly) You need to read Arbcom's founding documents. That was a principle from the beginning. And I stand by my comment that the case voting was correctly drafted, as best I am aware. (My apologies but I am being dragged away, and will have to read your further comments later tomorrow.) FT2  23:41, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm missing something. What was the principle from the beginning??? You said that there was unanimous consent for each finding in the case. Kirill said he didn't consent. I'm missing what the principle was. If the principle is consensus (as opposed to voting) ok, fine, but don't that "nobody objected" if that isn't true. --B (talk) 23:54, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

No, FT2 is technically correct on this point; there were not any objections to what he submitted in the Orangemarlin matter, as such. Of course, arbitration decisions are supposed to pass by majority vote (and, no, there was neither a majority nor a vote); but the wording does indeed reflect the result of the discussion (or lack thereof). Kirill 00:53, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

So essentially this decision was FT2's, he discussed it with the other arbcom members and there were no outright objections. He then took this to constitute agreement and ran with it, is that what you are saying? RMHED (talk) 01:18, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I am unaware of any substantive discussion having taken place regarding it; as far as I know, there was only a single comment made in response to FT2's proposal from the time he first mentioned it to the time he posted it publicly. Kirill 01:28, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

So that effectively amounts to one member of arbcom issuing a sanction, whilst the other members sit silently by, neither outright supporting or opposing. That's just crazy. RMHED (talk) 01:37, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

nemine_contradicente means "nobody contradicting" . . .it most certainly does not mean "consensus", and not "in the main, substantiated." Those decisions were represented as no one on the Arbitration Committee disagreeing. This announcement doesn't cut it for me either. R. Baley (talk) 23:40, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I think the problem here is the way FT2 put it across. I suspect there was a majority of arbcom supporting it, but not unanimous support. Ryan Postlethwaite 23:41, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Secret "arbitrations" shouldn't be mis-represented . . .to say the least. R. Baley (talk) 23:44, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

But the key thing is that arbitration cases get voted on as a majority verdict, they don't have to be unanimous. Even if they weren't unanimous, provided they actually have a majority support, the decisions would still have been made and the statements posted. Ryan Postlethwaite 23:47, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

According to Kirill's claims, these were not formal discussions. Are informal, private discussions between arbitrators now binding? Antelan 23:49, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I highly suspect that FT2 would not have posted without a majority verdict. This looks well planned and not something that would be done without thought and a majority support. Maybe Kirill was simply strongly opposed to the idea and decided to post here because he's against it? Until we have the full facts, we shouldn't postulate about these things. Ryan Postlethwaite 23:51, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Um Ryan, maybe reread the following with your irony detector fully enabled: Maybe Kirill was simply strongly opposed to the idea and decided to post here because he's against it? Until we have the full facts, we shouldn't postulate about these things. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 23:59, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Of course you know what I'm saying - we shouldn't shoot FT2 without hearing the full facts of the case. There's two accounts so far, both very different - let's here some more before we start making judgements. Ryan Postlethwaite 00:01, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I know what you're saying, and I agree with it entirely. And I think comments like "Maybe Kirill was simply strongly opposed to the idea and decided to post here because he's against it?" run exactly counter to what you're saying. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 00:03, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I was just offering an alternative explanation to show that we cannot state that one side of the debate is speaking the absolute truth because so far FT2 is the devil and we have 100% evidence that Kirill is telling the trust - Certainly wasn't postulating. Ryan Postlethwaite 00:08, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

My point was rhetorical: either Kirill or FT2, but not both, were "right" about the facts. One is right; I don't profess to know which. Antelan 00:21, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

A majority verdict in an informal conversation? My point, again, is that Kirill explicitly stated that there was no formal proceeding. This leaves open only the possibility that something informal occurred. Hence my question about the "binding-ness" of informal arbitrator discussions. Antelan 23:55, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, with the greatest respect to Kirill - I don't believe him. FT2 would not post this without a formal vote on the matter. Ryan Postlethwaite 23:56, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, no, there is possible middleground. (I'm not saying this is what happened, just proposing an alternative interpretation of events.) FT2 proposes the case and the other announcements. There's a little bit of discussion here and there but he is mostly ignored. FT2 takes the lack of objection as tacit consent and posts the case here thinking he had approval. I'm betting the truth is something closer to that. --B (talk) 00:00, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

With respect to FT2, we're not supposed to have to decide who we believe or don't believe. We're supposed to be able to see from ArbCom a level of public consideration, discussion and decisionmaking. This doesn't mean "everything is out in the open," it means we don't have a "secret case" magically appear with a whole laundry list of facts found made with the notation "no dissent" when there is, quite apparently, some dissent. FCYTravis (talk) 00:03, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm shocked, just shocked at your outrage. Where was your outrage when the Footnotes BLP crap came down? --Dragon695 (talk) 00:09, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Oddly enough, I seem to recall public deliberation, discussion, dissent and voting in that case. FCYTravis (talk) 00:14, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Ah yes, in a case that concerned overly long footnotes in a biography of a dead person. Had about as much obscurity and lack of process as this one, since nobody, I mean nobody, could reasonably predict such a ridiculous remedy that had nothing to do with the case. There was no significant community input. You just didn't say anything because it suited your agenda, admit it. --Dragon695 (talk) 00:21, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

In that case, arbitrators publicly discussed and disagreed with findings and remedies. It was not secret, nor was it claimed that the findings were made entirely without dissent.

I also have grave concerns about taking up a case against someone entirely in private, without giving the person an opportunity to defend themselves or even know that specific action against them was being planned. It smacks of Camp X-Ray.

I don't know why you think I'd have any other particular dog in this hunt - I'm hardly a member of the "ID Cabal" or whatever. In fact, I was one of their most stubborn opponents in the BLP-related issue on Rosalind Picard. FCYTravis (talk) 00:31, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

In the interest of giving both FT2 and Kirill the full benefit of every doubt, I would like to point out that Kirill's statement could be read as an objection to the process by which these issues were handled. In other words, he may be expressing a view that the findings have no authority because no formal RFAr was ever conducted. It is even possible that everyone on Arbcom, Kirill included, has generally agreed with FT2 on the merits of the case, but Kirill nonetheless feels that formal findings should not have been offered without a formal hearing on-wiki. Dragons flight (talk) 00:06, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Getting the views of other arbitrators at this point would be very helpful. Do they feel this action by FT2 was correct or incorrect? Everyking (talk) 23:48, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

It's kind of obvious that there are strong disagreements within the committee. And recently we witnessed an increase of power of ARBCOM over the community, more than a simple coincidence... Cenarium 23:58, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

This comment is incomprehensible

I find the post of FT2 above incomprehensible. He has this strange writing style and needs a lot of "tweaks" after he makes his posts to make them final but in the end of the day, I can usually figure what he meant to say. Here I can't. FT2, can you make some tweaks to make your post a little more intelligible? --Irpen 23:41, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I asked FT2 at his talk to clarify himself because upon two more rereads I still can't understand anything and I am having the impression that this post is deliberately written to say as little as possible with as many words as possible. Looking forward for a clarification. --Irpen 23:49, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

For god sake Irpen, he's not even at home - wait till tomorrow and let him enjoy his evening. Ryan Postlethwaite 23:52, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm making a leap of faith here that the wiki won't blow up if this isn't clarified this very second. ++Lar: t/c 23:55, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with all of you. I found FT2's answer to be evasive at best. The use of law terminology instead of the usual counter was also suspect to me. I think it would be best if we asked the other administrators instead. bibliomaniac15 00:26, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

If any Arbcom members are reading this can you at the very least put the names of the Arbcom members who have endorsed the decision. I feel like it is really urgent and important. And indeed yes the very functioning of the project is in the large degree based on the trust to the Arbcom body and its members Alex Bakharev (talk) 00:34, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

An underlying problem?

Was FT2 right? Was Kirill right? While it's important to find the bottom of this, this brings up another issue that likely caused this whole drama to occur, and that is the "secret case". Now have been issues in the past regarding secret evidence, but a secret case, quite frankly, was pretty shocking to me. I mean, was there a real need to keep this 100% under wraps? Was it necessary for no one outside of who was needed to know about it? It's a question that will have to be answered sooner rather than later. Would the arbitration committee have come to the same conclusion (albeit probably slower) if they had put this out in the open? I dunno, and if there's a possibility of the answer being no then that makes me wonder about what arbcom entails behind the scenes. What's necessary to keep hidden and what's not. Simply put, letting the community know that this was going on, even while keeping the main points itself a secret, may have saved some drama now. Granted, it's a catch-22, since the arbcom likely got the most objective answer by doing it this way, so it's tough to say whether this is good or not on this particular case. I just worry about the long-term effects of doing this. Wizardman 23:59, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

• If this decision has majority arbcom backing then it should be made crystal clear. Those members of Arbcom who support this decision should make themselves known. They should come out of the shadows and into the light. A decision carried out in this clandestine manner, should at the very least require absolute transparency from those supporting it. RMHED (talk) 00:01, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

In , FT2 says that "By the very nature of what we saw, the user defends via smoke, and invented pretexts, and smears. We have no interest in enduring a week or two of that, or asking others to. We considered emailing the user for comments before posting, but that too would lead to email and "smoke" as well, and wikidrama and hearsay until it was belatedly made public anyway." - this is bizarre. How is that different from a dozen cases this year alone? How does such alleged behaviour amount to the need for a secret case? Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 00:03, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Maybe having C68-FM-SV currently open was enough drama for them? --Dragon695 (talk) 01:08, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps we should do away with secret cases altogether? IIRC, it was Fred Redirect To Clown Bauder who devised this scheme to railroad PPAs and other undesirables off the wiki. Perhaps we should revisit KarmaFist's excellent proposal on Wiki constitutional democracy. It is high time, in my humble opinion, that the administrators and others represent the will of the editors and not their own agendas. --Dragon695 (talk) 00:06, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

An RfC has gone live

I just saw that Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Arbitration Committee has been opened. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 00:56, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Per Lawrence Cohen's request I have moved the draft from his userspace to Misplaced Pages namespace, and opened an initial statement. He delayed this decision for a considerable time partly at my request, and I delayed fulfillment of his request for a couple of hours while recording a related Not the Misplaced Pages Weekly episode. Due to an upcoming deadline my Misplaced Pages time will be limited until noon Pacific time tomorrow (it is currently 6:05 pm in my time zone). I ask all community members to step away from individual grievances and consider the best interests of the site. Serious as this is, this is not life or death. With respect toward all, Durova 01:08, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I'll note I was the one Lawrence contacted and he indicated that he felt the page did not belong to him and was of better use to the community in the Misplaced Pages: space as an active page, so I talked to Durova and she moved it out, cheers. MBisanz 01:14, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, MBisanz is correct. Durova 01:40, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

MFD

Given the dubious status of Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Orangemarlin, I have nominated the page for deletion. Please see Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Orangemarlin. John254 01:26, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I predict a speedy close and a troutslap for this bit of ridiculousness. SirFozzie (talk) 01:29, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Speaking strictly in a private capacity, I would think it's up to the Arbitration Committee to determine who speaks for it, and this MfD is somewhat beside the point. But as you like. Mackensen (talk) 01:29, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Dear god in heaven that was a silly idea. Viridae 01:30, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I think deletion would be a very bad idea. But there should not be ArbCom decisions in this space which are not actually arbcom decisions. I think this needs to be preserved but moved to FT2's userspace. --Irpen 01:33, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and don't think we need a WP:RM request for more drama (Hear John?). I am just expressing my view on where this stuff belongs. --Irpen 01:34, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Now Kirill says there WAS discussion and consensus (to some point) on this, just no formal vote. ArbCom will tell us (eventually) what to do with it. Let's show some patience here. SirFozzie (talk) 01:36, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

It has by no means been established that this was not actually an ArbCom decision, and it should stay put unless the arbitrators decide to take it down. Everyking (talk) 01:41, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I've closed the MFD as premature; MFD isn't binding on arbcom, anyway, as they can overrule the process. Best to let the dust settle on this one before sweeping up. UltraExactZZ ~ Evidence 01:38, 28 June 2008 (UTC)