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This article was nominated for deletion on 27 August 2007. The result of the discussion was Keep.

Archives
Archive 1 - Oct '06 Archive 2 Oct '06 Archive 3 Oct '06 - Dec '06 Archive 4 Dec '06 - Jan '07 Archive 5 Jan '07 - Feb '07 Archive 6 Mar '07 (Some Jul '07) Archive 7 Apr '07 - Jul '07 Archive 8 Jul '07 - Aug '07 Archive 9 Sep '07 - Oct '07 Archive 10 Nov '07 - Dec '07 (Partial) Archive 11 Dec '07 - Jan '08 Archive 12 Jan - Feb '08 Archive 13 Feb - Jun '08 Archive 14 July '08

References

Quackwatch

JSE has no consensus

Here are some examples that show JSE does not pass the rigors of BLP policy. Editing is based on Misplaced Pages policy.

1. JSE is a fringe science journal because they attempt to rationalize UFOs while a true skeptic journal publication is critical and/skpetical of UFOs. The journal attempts to rationalize the evidence for the existance of UFOs. Moreover, JSE describes itself as a fringle journal because they assert on their website it is a "critical forum of rationality and observational evidence for the often strange claims at the fringes of science." Saying JSE is a skeptic's journal would entirely be original research. So what is the point? The journal is a "forum" for "rationality" of "the often strange claims at the fringes of science" which would make it a 'fringe science' journal. If any Wikipedian thinks the journal is not a fringe science journal, what kind of journal is it then? Keep in mind that current consensus for the JSE article is for it to remain in the fringe science category. Robert Todd Carroll of the Skeptic's Dictionary stated in part: "In fact, the so-called Association for Skeptical Investigation is a group of pseudo-skeptical paranormal investigators and supporters who do not appreciate criticism of paranormal studies by truly genuine skeptics and critical thinkers. The only skepticism this group promotes is skepticism of critics and criticisms of paranormal studies." He also stated in part: "However, Gary Schwartz, in a published paper, refers to several of the deceased—including William James!—as “departed hypothesized co-investigators,” so perhaps the group considers the spirits of Keen and Truzzi as active investigators. The Society for Scientific Exploration was founded by Marcello Truzzi. The only conclusion demonstrated by the examples is a fringe science journal.
2. If you believe the journal is not a fringe science journal, then what type of journal do you believe it is. Moreover, if you believe the journal is not a fringe journal then what is a fringe science journal (A definition of a fringe journal is requested). Please provide specific examples and descriptions of the differences of a fringe science journal versus JSE.
3. If you believe JSE is a skeptic organization then please provide examples of JSE being the same as other skeptic organizations.
4. Kauffman is a person and therefore not formally peer-reviewed. We cannot use his asseration on it own face value. Moreover, his notability (or more precisely, lack of notability) is a straw-man argument. Is there even an article on Misplaced Pages on Kauffman? Per BLP policy, we insist on reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability. Kauffman is not a third-party published source. If you disagree, please explain. When you cannot explain how Kauffman satisfies BLP policy, you (yes, I mean you) have conceded Kauffman is not a reliable third-party published source. This isn't my rule, this is Misplaced Pages's rule as required by BLP policy. Again, how in the world is Kauffman independant of a third-party published source satsifying to BLP policy. The answer is obvious. He does not satisfy BLP policy. BLP policy drives editing on Misplaced Pages articles on notable individuals. A couple of editors are asserting but are actually refusing to explain how Kauffman meets BLP policy. You must properly show and not assert based on Misplaced Pages policy. Again, how does Kauffman specifically meet BLP policy. Please explain by citing BLP policy. Do you agree to abide by BLP policy anyhow.
5. The journal describes itself as a fringe journal on their website as well others do. They describe themselves as a fringe journal because they assert the rationalizing of "strange claims at the fringes of science." For example, Michael D. Lemonick wrote an article about the Society for Scientific Exploration called Science on the Fringe for Time Magazine. My recent edit was not reverted because of any misleading statement. The other editor felt it was not necessary to say what the journal is and to, nevertheless, keep the description of what the journal is only after you went to the editor's talk page.
6. Barrett studies quacks which would make him a skeptic. See at the bottom right hand corner of this article: American Skeptics. Barrett is in the category of American skeptics. The journal studies fringes which would make it a "fringe science" journal. For example, the journal studies for the rational evidence of UFOs, reincarnation, and crop circles.
7. Moreover, the journal describes themselves as rationalizing "strange claims at the fringes of science." The point is that they "rationalize" the "fringes of science." Thats exactly what a fringe journal does. Please contact them directly. In fact, the journal is proud of being a fringe science journal. See what they will tell you about themselves. What is scientific about crop circles? Hmmm. The journal studies the so-called science of crop circles made by UFOs. Everything the journal does is obviously on the "fringes of science." Therefore, it is clearly a fringe science journal when they are a forum to "rationalize" the "fringes of science." For example, it is a group inclined toward belief in paranormal phenomena. The fringe journal clearly fails the rigors of BLP policy becuase it is not a third-party source. While Barrett criticizes various forms of alternative medicine topics, JSE attempts to rationalize alternative medical practices.
8. This is an example of how the term peer-reviewed can easily be misused or misunderstood. The JSE is reviewed by a minority group of fringe supporters. This minority group who share the same fringe ideology, without any review from dissent, falls into the category of reviewed by true believers of the so-called rationale fringe of true believers and their self-serving bias. They are fringe supporters because they attempt to rationalize such things as UFOs. For further information about how JSE portrays themselves, please visit the website.
9. See: Journal of Scientific Exploration. JSE is subject to review "at the discretion of the Editor-in-Chief." If the paper is accepted "but there remain points of disagreement between authors and referee(s), the reviewer(s) may be given the option of having their opinion(s) published..." The journal clearly is subject to the discretion of a single person which is the Editor-in-Chief. Therefore, the journal clearly publishes opinions without always having editorial review. Furthmore, the journal is reviewed by a small group of fringe supporters who attempt to rationalize such things as UFOs at "the fringes of science." Hmmm.
10. The journal represents unconventional views. For example: In established disciplines, concordance with accepted disciplinary paradigms is the chief guide in evaluating material for scholarly publication. On the matters of interest to the Society for Scientific Exploration, however, consensus does not prevail. Therefore the Journal of Scientific Exploration necessarily publishes claimed observations and proffered explanations that will seem more speculative or less plausible than in some mainstream disciplinary journals. See Refereeing at the JSE article.
11. Please take a look at the Journal of Scientific Exploration at the bottom right hand corner. What do you see. Is it >> Fringe science journals? Specifically what category is the fringe science journal in? Also, what do you see is the first listing in the see also section?
12. Per WEIGHT: We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention as a majority view. Views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views. To give undue weight to a significant-minority view, or to include a tiny-minority view, might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute. Misplaced Pages aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation among experts on the subject, or among the concerned parties. This applies not only to article text, but to images, external links, categories, and all other material as well. If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Misplaced Pages (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it is true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not. Views held only by a tiny minority of people should not be represented as significant minority views, and perhaps should not be represented at all.
13. Per BLP policy: The views of critics should be represented if they are relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to side with the critics. Be careful not to give a disproportionate amount of space to critics, to avoid the effect of representing a minority view as if it were the majority one. If the criticism represents the views of a tiny minority, it has no place in the article. Content should be sourced to reliable sources and should be about the subject of the article specifically. Beware of claims that rely on guilt by association. Editors should also be on the lookout for biased or malicious content about living persons. If someone appears to be pushing an agenda or a biased point of view, insist on reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability.
14. Remove unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material: Editors should remove any contentious material about living persons that is unsourced, relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, or is a conjectural interpretation of a source (see Misplaced Pages:No original research). If the material is derogatory and unsourced or poorly sourced, the three-revert rule does not apply to its removal. Content may be re-inserted when it conforms to this policy. These principles apply to biographical material about living persons found anywhere in Misplaced Pages, including user and talk pages. Administrators may enforce the removal of such material with page protection and blocks, even if they have been editing the article themselves. Editors who re-insert the material may be warned and blocked. See the blocking policy and Misplaced Pages:Libel.
15. Blocking: Editors who repeatedly add or restore unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons may be blocked for disruption. See the blocking policy. This is an official notice to all editors involved. This is a very serious matter.
16. Multiple Wikipedians have deleted the Kauffman attack piece from the article. Avb, + ConfuciusOrnis, + Crohnie, + Fyslee, Orangemarlin, + QuackGuru, + Ronz, + Shot info + THF. As the discussion continued, Arthur Rubin, an administrator in good standing in the community, stated that JSE is clearly a fringe journal. According to policy, While the consensus process does not require posting to the discussion page, it can be useful. That means we do not have to continue to work on discussing this matter. Their points are based on valid reasons to exclude the POV material which is to be respected. Clearly there is no consensus to re-add the Kauffman/JSE bit to the article. It was removed for various reasons including, but not limited to, BLP policy, WEIGHT policy, and POV. It is considered highly disruptive to re-add BLP violations or WEIGHT violations against consensus. Re-inserting BLP/Weight violations is against Misplaced Pages policy and by extention against Misplaced Pages. Any editor who continues to try the patience of the community by engaging in disruptive editing may be blocked for disruption in accordance with blocking policy or community banned.

There are many reasons why we can't use the JSE ref. For example, many editors have rejected the use of the ref. There is no consensus for the JSE ref. QuackGuru 18:11, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

If it hasn't been done yet, I recommend bringing the JSE up at the reliable sources noticeboard to get more opinions. --Elonka 02:51, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Elonka is now an involved editor in a content dispute. There is a question of WP:WEIGHT. The view of a tiny minority is a WEIGHT violation. QuackGuru 06:53, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I have no involvement in this topic area. See WP:UNINVOLVED. I have no preference whether JSE is used as a source or not, I am simply offering a suggestion for how to deal with the dispute. --Elonka 15:37, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Ok, having read all this through, I'm confused. how is this (in any way shape or form) a BLP issue? Quackwatch is not a living person.

now it seems to me that what you are really trying to leverage here is wp:undo weight, with a claim that JSE represents a tiny minority opinion and shouldn't be included. however, that can't be correct. even though JSE examines material at the fringes of science, it's authors are all scientists who can be considered authoritative experts in their fields, and so these articles are (almost by definition) reliable sources. Joel Kaufman in particular is a publish author and a noted researcher and professor in chemistry, and his article is JSE is a highly professional critical review. but you know this, because we had this discussion the last time that I put the kaufman article in (see this section in the archives, and this section. bringing up the same refuted arguments repeatedly is not productive editing. I see no reason not to put the Kaufman article back in as a reliable source. can you provide one that hasn't been thoroughly refuted already? --Ludwigs2 16:54, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

This is still a BLP issue. Quackwatch is not a living person but BLP applies to all articles.

There is no consensus to add the JSE article. Many editors disagree with using the JSE fringe reference. The view of a fringe journal is a minority view and thus a WEIGHT violation too.

I don't think we should make an end-run around the discussions on the notability of this source

See Misplaced Pages:CON#Forum shopping

It is very easy to create the appearance of a changing consensus simply by asking again and hoping that a different and more sympathetic group of people will discuss the issue. This, however, is a poor example of changing consensus, and is antithetical to the way that Misplaced Pages works. Misplaced Pages's decisions are not based on the number of people who showed up and voted a particular way on a particular day; they are based on a system of good reasons.

QuackGuru 18:31, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

specific information and ease of reading

Each section of information of the article should have it's own section. Lumping a bunch of information into one huge section under Reception is very odd and is hard for the reader to follow. Organizing the article into specific sections will make it a lot easier to read. QuackGuru 18:11, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

You're mistaken about this, QuackGuru. First, the Reception section does not have to be very long. What do we actually have as notable commentary on this website? A handful of commendations, one constructive criticism and perhaps a little bit of rejection (depending on the outcome of the other discussions on this talk page). And even if it were long it could be divided into subsections. I've had experience of this approach on some very contentious articles. See Bat Ye'or, for example. And we appear to have consensus to work in that direction with Academic boycotts of Israel. I believe it is policy to avoid "Criticism" sections and work criticisms into the rest of the article. Itsmejudith (talk) 15:22, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Itsmejudith wrote in part: And even if it were long it could be divided into subsections.

The current article has divided each specific information into specific sections. I don't see any problems with the current format. QuackGuru 18:13, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Simply, we need to do all we can to overcome our own differences and achieve an NPOV article. See To Kill a Mockingbird, FA on the mainpage today for how a "Reception" section can cover all notable viewpoints under subheadings. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:07, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

The sections are already divided. I don't see any reason to add an additional heading and then create subsections. I see no problems with the current format. QuackGuru 20:30, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

I suppose I will keep having to spell out my reason for wanting to make the change. I believe it is a generally good principle to include all the positive and negative comments in one section, unless they are going to be spread throughout the article. It is not a good idea to have a section that is only positive or a section that is only negative. This is a good principle for all sorts of articles, and in particular controversial ones. It is also a good principle for this article, which does not need to be controversial. Itsmejudith (talk) 19:49, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Lumping a lot of the information into one large section is strange. I don't see a problem with the current format. QuackGuru 19:53, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Did you look at some of the articles I mentioned? Itsmejudith (talk) 19:23, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

QG - I'm with Judith on this one. plus I'll point out that strange is not a helpful or useful term, since I have no idea what you consider to be strange. --Ludwigs2 16:29, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Me thinks specific information would be better in each specific section. QuackGuru 18:44, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

but this is the point, QG - it is not clear to me that there are two different sorts of information here. All we are discussing in this(these) section(s) is the public reception of Quackwatch. the only real distinction I can see here is that the first section is a laundry list of 'back-patting' references, which might not sit well with WP:NOT, and would certainly run afoul of style guidelines like wp:Words_to_avoid#Article_structure. --Ludwigs2 18:57, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Conditions for editing

In my authority as an uninvolved administrator, per Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Homeopathy, I am placing some restrictions on the editing of this article. These restrictions are in effect at least until August 30, 2008:

• 0RR, meaning No reverts, except for obvious vandalism.
• A "revert" is defined as something that might be done with the "undo" or "rollback" buttons, or any manual edit which effectively does a clean revert to a previous version of the article. However, changes to the work of other editors are allowed, and even encouraged, as long as an attempt is made to try different compromise wording than what has been tried in the past.
• Keep comments and edit summaries very neutral and civil.
• Ensure that any new material that is added, has a reliable source
• If you see someone add something that you disagree with, don't revert it, change it. Specifically: Try to change it to a compromise wording, or add some (sourced) alternate view wording nearby.
• If you see something added with a source, that you do not think is a reliable source, add a {{verify credibility}} tag next to it. Discussions can also be started at the talkpage, and/or at the reliable sources noticeboard.
• If you see a sentence that you don't think properly reflects what is in a source, change it so that it does. Or, add a {{verify source}} tag to it
• If you see something that's added that is unsourced, but it's plausible, don't just remove it. Instead, add a {{fact}} tag to it. Then, if no source is provided in a reasonable amount of time, the statement can be removed.
• If something is added that is unsourced, that is obviously troublesome (such as very biased or potentially untrue), it can be deleted on the spot. Please use a clear edit summary such as "removing unsourced information, see talkpage"). If there is a source though, then use one of the other above steps instead.
• Do not remove reliable sources.
• Long sections of the article can be condensed. Do not remove their sources, but information can definitely be moved around and re-worded.

Bottom line: Stay civil. Don't revert other editors. If you disagree with an addition, don't delete it, change it.

Good luck, Elonka 18:38, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Administrative notes

This section is for the use of uninvolved administrators in managing the dispute on this page

Uninvolved admins

• Elonka (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• GRBerry (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Neil (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Seicer (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Editors under ArbCom restrictions

The following active editors on this page have been notified of restrictions, per Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Homeopathy

• ScienceApologist (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Ronz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)}
  • Was banned from editing homeopathy-related articles for one week, starting July 6
• QuackGuru (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Jossi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) (administrator participating as involved editor)
• Minderbinder (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Other frequent editors on this page

Note: Being listed here does not imply that these editors were disruptive. It is simply for reference, a list of those editors who have recently been actively engaged with this article.

• Arthur Rubin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) (administrator participating as involved editor)
• DigitalC (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Fyslee (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• ImperfectlyInformed (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Itsmejudith (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Jefffire (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Levine2112 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Ludwigs2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• MaxPont (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Petergkeyes (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Orangemarlin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Shot info (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Admin log

• Conditions established: 18:38, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
• Page protection lifted by Seicer. 15:43, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
• QuackGuru (talk · contribs) formally cautioned about talkpage disruption. If he continues repeating the same charges over and over, I recommend temporarily banning him from the talkpage. --Elonka 15:12, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
• Jossi (talk · contribs) cautioned about reverting. GRBerry 18:06, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
• Minderbinder (talk · contribs) cautioned about disruption. --Elonka 17:19, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Anyone, admin or editor, who has questions or comments on any of the above, may post here.

consultant pharmacist review

I received a copy of this review, and edited the article to reflect it's position correctly, but I think it now has way too much weight in the article. I mean, it's an 8 paragraph review in a minor journal that at best reflects the opinion of pharmacists, but it's carrying a whole lot prominence in this article. any suggestions about how that can be adjusted? --Ludwigs2 17:22, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Remove it. ScienceApologist (talk) 22:57, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Please don't. It's one of the only truly reliable and external sources the article has. I will shorten it and you and SA can see if you like the result. Itsmejudith (talk) 23:25, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Already shortened. ScienceApologist (talk) 00:27, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Trimming

I trimmed a lot. There may still be issues of balance, so I kept in a tag. I don't understand why certain references were quoted with cherry-picked quotes while other references were more or less left unexplored. I think the best thing to do is keep the synopses of the articles as short and to the point as possible since there are so many sources that use/discuss qw. ScienceApologist (talk) 23:16, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, maybe people were trying to improve the article a bit at a time. I believe I myself used the word "cherry-picked" a while ago, when some people were trying to slant the Consultant Pharmacist review in a direction. But it isn't very conducive to good faith. I actually am not finding that many good sources that discuss Quackwatch. Of course, Google throws a lot up, but they turn out not to be reliable. There are few mentions in academic sources. I completely agree it is great to keep everything short and to the point. X said, Y said... Itsmejudith (talk) 23:33, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

excuse me - I think I need an administrator's attention here. several properly-sourced but critical statements I added to the article have been removed without explanation, and several other's have been minimized ridiculously. this is in violation of the current administreative policy on this page. list below.

• this quote ""He seems to be putting down trying to be objective, Quackwatch.com is consistently provocative and entertaining and occasionally informative." Chowka also "feels it is okay for HHS to mention Quackwatch.com as one of many sources," but adds "I personally think he's running against the tide of history. But that's his problem, not ours". from the Ladd article disappeared entirely, as did the Dr. Thomas R. Eng, the director of the panel's study, later stated, "The government doesn't endorse Web sites." comment, even as the positive side of those articles was amplified.
• this quote Joel Best asserts that sites such a quackwatch that are "devoted to particular social issues or types of data" may "vary in their concerns and underlying ideologies, and their critiques should be examined critically rather than simply being accepted." was watered down to say that Joel Best encouraged a critical eye, which is a significantly different meaning
• David Hufford went from being a "Professor of Medical Humanities at the Penn State College of Medicine" to an alternative medicine proponent
• Walter Ernst became a Medical historian and sometime alternative medicine proponent

I don't mind a little competitive editing (that's what gets rid of POV views) but when it gets to the point of whitewashing sources, that's just ridiculous. --Ludwigs2 05:48, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Normally (and I have in early incarnations of this article) would just point out WP:WEIGHT, that QW is largely accepted by the greater community and also the more specific medical and scientific community. Sure it has it's critics and only the notable ones need inclusion. To include them all is ignoring WP:WEIGHT regardless of if it's "sourced". However it's now up to admins to determine what is weight and NPOV now, so I'm not going to edit the article either way. Shot info (talk) 06:18, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, no, it's probably not up to the admins, it's up to the editors. If someone feels that too much was trimmed, I recommend adding a smaller portion back. Don't revert, but try to find a compromise. Then if whoever trimmed, feels that you added too much back, they can trim again (without reverting), still trying to find a compromise, etc. If there's a lot going on, I recommend focusing on one section of the article at a time, or even just one paragraph or sentence, and go back and forth that way, to see if you can find a consensus version. --Elonka 17:12, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I'll go ahead and add some of the deleted sections back, but I expect as soon as I do that either SA or QG is going to accuse me of reverting and ask to have me banned. I'd like to reiterate my basic point, though: SA and QG have along history (I'll provide diffs if necessary) of trying to create a version of this article with no criticisms whatsoever, and have been recalcitrant about compromising on that position at all. I'm more than happy to reach for an effective balance (per Shot info's suggestions), but the current editing rules here make that an impossibility where editors are not willing to work in good faith. all I'm asking from the administrators here is that they take a dim view on edits that are clearly tendentious, like the ones I noted above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ludwigs2 (talk • contribs) 18:34, July 16, 2008 (UTC)

Restoring deleted information is a violation of the conditions of editing and a revert. QuackGuru 18:36, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

LMFAO - yikes, I got a ban threat even before I made any changes. this is hilarious.  :-) --Ludwigs2 18:48, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Please take your arguments to AN/I or WQA. However, since your accusations lack proof, they are definitely uncivil and rude, and probably a personal attack. Please note that if you go to ANI, I will bring up your baseless accusations. Quackguru has been a valued editor here for much longer than you, and if there was a COI issue, it would have been dealt with much earlier than this. If you would like help in constructing your ANI, I will be most happy to help. Also, you should review the difference between WP:BAN and WP:BLOCK. OrangeMarlin 18:56, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

See WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA. Please WP:AGF.

Per WEIGHT, adding too much criticism is a violation of NPOV. Quackwatch's viewpoint is of the mainstream view and not fringe. QuackGuru 19:09, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Folks, please keep discussions focused on the article, not on the editors. And don't worry about someone making threats of a ban, unless it's one of the uninvolved administrators who's saying it. And don't worry, administrators are not going to ban someone just because an editor said "ban them". In short, please continue with good faith editing, which is in adherence with the #Conditions for editing. The uninvolved administrators here will be the decision makers on what is or isn't in adherence with the conditions. --Elonka 19:12, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Succinctly, since Elonka has already made the most important long explanation, none of the posts between those of 17:12, 16 July 2008 and 19:12, 16 July 2008 by Elonka should have been made.

Additionally, QuackGuru - you are not quite right in the first of those posts; only an identical restoration would be a revert. Rewordings or putting back into a different context would not be a revert. And remember that changes elsewhere in the article can be a relevant change of context - for example if material was removed in section A as duplicating section B, but it has since been removed in B, then putting it back into A would not be a revert. There is no first mover advantage here; just a requirement to keep looking for new possible compromises until everyone can accept the article despite it not being exactly what they prefer. GRBerry 19:30, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

The Review section needs trimming again. I recommend we revert the edit that added a large paragraph to that section. QuackGuru 07:59, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Only one source removed

Jay, Nordlinger (2003-06-30). "Water Fights: Believe It or Not, the Fluoridation War Still Rages -- with a Twist You May Like". National Review. Retrieved 2007-10-30. {{cite journal}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

The National Review is a source that generally should be looked on with some skepticism as they carry with them a serious political bent and are explicitly subjective and partisan in their writing. Since the intersection of science and politics is very tenuous in the area of alt. medicine, it is likely that the National Review is somewhat orthogonal as a source, but nevertheless, it is provocative enough to deserve removal. Let's stick to sources that are at least paying lip service to objectivity. ScienceApologist (talk) 23:26, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

National Review is RS, SA, whether you approve of their politics or not. Political magazines often have a slant but they can still be reliable. As I'm sure you know, the standard way to deal with this is to ensure they are balanced. Itsmejudith (talk) 23:33, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with whether I agree with its politics or not. If it was an article from The Nation or The Daily Kos I would make the same objection. I'm just saying that obviously subjective sources should be excised as in such situations authors are not acting as "objective" reporters but instead are employed to promote the particular editorial opinion of the publication board. ScienceApologist (talk) 00:26, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

And we actually also happen to have the Village Voice, with quite a different political outlook. Itsmejudith (talk) 23:51, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the Village Voice is not the same thing as the National Review. It is not a political periodical and there is no statement of political belief or explicit subjectivity associated with the mission statement of the newspaper. The National Review is a strictly subjective work meant to advance opinion rather than attempt to report objectively. You might accuse the Village Voice of having a different "political outlook", but as a periodical it is not explicitly political. Still, I'm not altogether opposed to looking at the Village Voice as a source more carefully. I'm not convinced that Donna Ladd is all that useful as an attributed person. ScienceApologist (talk) 00:26, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I stand corrected. Quite a different outlook, generally. Itsmejudith (talk) 00:28, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

With proper attribution of the opinion, I do not see why this source will not be useful. After all, the politics of medicine are quite obvious, irregardless of the opinion of the National Review. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:38, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Removing a source, was a violation of the #Conditions for editing. In the future, don't remove sources, but instead modify the information from that source (perhaps as Jossi suggested), or else tag the source as unreliable, with {{vc}} (verify credibility) so that it can be discussed. But wholesale removal of sources is discouraged unless there is consensus to remove the source, or there is some other blatant issue going on (such as BLP). --Elonka 17:16, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

combine sections?

I'm having a hard time seeing the distinction between the 'recognition' and 'usefulness as a source' sections, when I look at the content. should they be combined? --Ludwigs2 02:42, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

QuackGuru - I see no need for two sections for the 'Public viewpoint', but apparently you do, can you please explain why you think two sections are necessary for this relatively small amount of information? --Ludwigs2 18:38, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

See Talk:Quackwatch#specific information and ease of reading. QuackGuru 18:46, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

popularity????

QuackGuru - please do not remove relatively neutral titles like 'Public views of QuackWatch' and replace them with unbiased and inaccurate terms like 'Popularity'. I'm asking you to self revert on that, otherwise I'm going to have to ask for administrator help, or whatever the proper measures are under these editing conditions. this is clearly pandering to Quackwatch, and not an improvement to the content or neutrality of the article. --Ludwigs2 19:03, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Guruji, how can you possibly defend "popularity" as an encyclopedic heading? Has the QW website suddenly become a fansite for some pop music band? Itsmejudith (talk) 19:08, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

hmmm... maybe he's trying to get Quackwatch nominated for Prom Queen (or Prom King??? - I can't tell the gender of that duck...) --Ludwigs2 19:35, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

(edit) well, I guess we're not going to get a response. since QG seems to think 'popularity' is unbiased, then I suppose that makes 'Unpopularity' unbiased as well. barring any further discussion, I'll change the title to that in a little while. --Ludwigs2 20:48, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Please don't rv. We should open an RfC on the article structure. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:09, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

From our Guru article: "A British professor of psychiatry, Anthony Storr, states in his book, Feet of Clay: A Study of Gurus, that he confines the word guru (translated by him as "revered teacher") to persons who have "special knowledge" who tell, referring to their special knowledge, how other people should lead their lives. He argues that gurus share common character traits (e.g. being loners) and that some suffer from a mild form of schizophrenia. He argues that gurus who are authoritarian, paranoid, eloquent, or who interfere in the private lives of their followers are the ones who are more likely to be unreliable and dangerous."

I only offer this in the spirit of friendly collaboration, and so that none of us will take ourselves too seriously. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:15, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Stick with the program, folks. If you don't like a new header, try something different, there's no need to ask people to revert themselves. Just keep trying different compromises. If necessary, pull out a thesaurus and keep looking for alternative synonyms. :) --Elonka 21:19, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

oh, I know, I had no intention of reverting. but (because I'm editing in good faith) I'm using up the neutral synonyms first. the longer this goes on, the more ridiculous it's going to get. for instance, I was quite serious about changing the name to 'Unpopularity', since that's no less neutral then 'Popularity'. I was hoping for a response from QG first, before it got to that kind of silliness, but that looks like a false hope. C'est la vie... --Ludwigs2 21:35, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

POV assertion

labeling David Hufford as a "cultural apologist for alternative medicine" is currently not sourced at all, and is inherently biased phrasing. if sourcing can be provided, I'll rephrase, otherwise it needs to be removed. --Ludwigs2 23:32, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I sourced it to his CV. Perhaps you should look at the references before making declarations. ScienceApologist (talk) 23:35, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Well now, isn't that interesting. The CV has been removed from the Hershey Medical Center site. Kaiwhakahaere (talk) 23:56, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I did look at his CV, and I don't see the words 'cultural apologist' anywhere on on that page. that means that your phrase is either (a) unsourced in its entirety, or (b) a particularly dramatic example of synthesis to advance a position. or am I missing something?

I'll add that using someone's CV in order to make a defamatory statement about them is probably a gross violation of WP:BLP, but I'll leave that for the admins to decide.

Kaiwhakahaere - the link SA gave isn't to the Hershey Medical Center. do you have a different link? --Ludwigs2 00:05, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm confused, Ludwigs, you seem to be going for a grabbag of policies here (WP:POV, WP:RS, WP:BLP, WP:SYN, which one do you actually have a problem with? Now that the source is in, of course it's impossible to take out (per the rules). Shot info (talk) 00:19, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

BLP takes precedence over all other policies, so anything that's a BLP violation can (and should) be removed immediately. However, do use a clear edit summary such as "Removing BLP violation, see talk," and please follow up with a detailed explanation for your reasoning. --Elonka 00:22, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

(ec) I know that, the WP policies tell me so. But given the rules above (again) common sense editing in line with Wikipillars is not possible (ie/ sources stay in, you have written the rules not me - obviously they clash with policy, so rewrite them). However, as I stated above, Ludwigs alphabet soup of policy violations is confusing. Obiviously he has a problem with an edit, but he hasn't really stated what it is other than applying some scattershot to all policies under the sun. Clarity would be nice to cease my confusion. But will leave the actual editing up to univolved admins, after all, editors cannot removed sourced material in line with the policy-clashing rules above. Shot info (talk) 00:28, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Ludwigs, here is where I went to check the CV. Wonder why the difference. Kaiwhakahaere (talk) 00:27, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Sometimes with altmed advocates, there's a difference to what they claim they represent and what they actually represent. Shot info (talk) 00:37, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Shot info, I find it is fairly common to have a problem simultaneously with all those policies. I might find two points put together, neither reliably sourced, that together make a synthesis, that pushes a POV that is at odds with the purpose of a BLP. Probably because I hang out in parts of the wiki that get that stuff chucked in. Usually it is straightforward to point out that policy is being breached. Hope you can get an explanation that doesn't confuse you. I'm not sure if using someone's cv/resume to make a potentially defamatory statement is worse than using any other material, probably about the same. Itsmejudith (talk) 00:38, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

ORLY - FWIW I have been bold, let's see if it screws with any policy clashing rules :-( Shot info (talk) 01:18, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Kaiwhakahaere - for some reason the link you used had a " CV" tagged onto the end of the link - removing it brings you back to the correct page. either it's a typo, or the page has moved recently to its current position.

Shot Info - it seems to me that a violation of any one of those rules would be sufficient for removing the source. or are you suggesting that if a passage violates multiple rules it should be kept in until we decide which rule it violates most? right now I'm going to remove it on the BLP issue, since I happen to think 'cultural apologist' is a defamatory phrase. we can discuss that further, and if we decide that it's not defamatory then we can address the other point, which is that the term 'cultural apologist' is not sourced by the CV, and any attempt to argue that it is must be improper synthesis. --Ludwigs2 00:42, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

(e/c)Kaiwhakahaere, that link doesn't point towards a CV, but rather to a "Meet the faculty section". Your formatting of the link was slightly off, and it should be . It certainly doesn't use the phrase "cultural apologist". - DigitalC (talk) 00:43, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

(e/c)OK, I see what I did, silly me. While reading the recent change, I decided to see exactly what the CV said, so I copied the url in the current revision text to paste into a new window (to have two open at once). Unfortunately I inadvertantly picked up the letters CV when I copied, and by amazing coincidence it took me to the Hershey Medical site which said "You have requested a document which does not exist on our server". Mea culpa. Kaiwhakahaere (talk) 01:25, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Ludwigs, make up your mind and present clear reasons why you want something changed. How your text reads is just coming across as WP:IDONTLIKEIT masked as multiple policy violations. Shot info (talk) 01:18, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Shot info, how much clearer can I be? let me itemize the argument for you...

1. 'cultural apologist' seems to be defamatory, violating BLP, therefore it should be removed on those grounds alone
2. if 'cultural apologist' is judged not to be defamatory, it is still the case that it is not present as given in the source used, therefore (without some other source, or some other argument) it should be removed
   • no other reliable source is given for 'cultural apologist' - no help there
   • asserting 'cultural apologist' from the CV would require inappropriate synthesis - no help there

you can argue with any of those points that you like, but ultimately you'll have to address all of them. face it, this was just a bad POV assertion that had no place in the article to begin with. --Ludwigs2 01:36, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

As Elonka said, just try rewording it! I did. ScienceApologist (talk) 21:16, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

and I tagged it as original research. --Ludwigs2 21:45, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Did you read his papers? ScienceApologist (talk) 23:10, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

"Cultural apologist" doesn't impart any information as a description. Apologists side with viewpoints that other people attack, such as "apologist for Islam". (You couldn't call an academic that without violating BLP.) You can't be an apologist for culture, a human universal. However, it would work well as a step on a career track in The Sims. Itsmejudith (talk) 09:26, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

POV in site content section

The following sentence is blatantly POV and should be fixed. "The site also provides links to hundreds of trusted health sites." I have tried to repair it twice, but other editors have reverted my attempts each time, so far. The word, "trusted," in particular, is non-neutral, and indicates a clear point of view. I still favor this alternative: "The site also provides links to many like-minded websites." Petergkeyes (talk) 03:47, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

It's a quote from a sourse isn't it? So are you proposing to alter the original text in the source? Shot info (talk) 04:18, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

No. The original text is not appropriate content for Misplaced Pages, because it espouses a point of view that is not neutral. I would further speculate that Quackwatch's provision of a links page is not particularly interesting, or unique. But, if a mention of it must be made, then the word "trusted" must go. Petergkeyes (talk) 04:43, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

As explained in other locations, please indent your replies. The tag you have added in appropriate for the article. Try a section header instead. Also you will have to be clearer. You are the one who changed the information from a reference to a quote and then you have tried to modify the quote. Now you are saying the original text is not appropriate? What is appropriate. The fact is, there are sources that say QW provides links to trusted sites. There is a reference which states that. So what is the problem? It cannot be NPOV because the very nature of the article, and it's supporting source is NPOV and supported by an RS. Curiously the provision of a links page is one of the things that the rest-of-the-world likes QW for, hence it's mention in the article, and the reference that states so. Shot info (talk) 05:39, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Respectfully, you are mistaken, in that I did not change the wording (i.e. many like-minded websites) to the NPOV "trusted sites." The source's proclamation of trustedness does not make the claim encyclopedic. The claim is an opinion, and therefore needs to be presented as such, or not at all. Petergkeyes (talk) 07:41, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

If a web site is trusted by a lot of people, and is sourced as that, then it is a "trusted" web site. We're not saying that Quackwatch is linking to "objectively correct health sites" or even "trustworthy health sites". We're just reporting the source that says people trust them. --McGeddon (talk) 09:45, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

The source says "trusted websites". But looking into this raises a whole load of questions for me. 1) Why is this article cited to Thomson Gale rather than to the actual magazine or journal? 2) If this is a reliable source, then it is an excellent source for the article. It is a very favourable review and should feature prominently in the "reviews" section. 3) But what kind of source is it? Is it only a news magazine? Does it regularly publish reviews by experts in the same way as the Consultant Pharmacist. 4) What is the "American Running and Fitness Association"? No WP article and a Live Search doesn't find a official website for them. 5) If this is not a reliable source, then why does the article cite it in the first place? Thanks. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

1. Skepdic article on positive pseudo-skeptics
2. Cross A (2004). The Flexibility of Scientific Rhetoric: A Case Study of UFO Researchers. Qualitative Sociology. Volume 27, Number 1 / March, 2004

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