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Revision as of 14:20, 30 July 2008

England NA‑class

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Sources reminder

A reminder to everyone. The list is of notable people - red links are not accepted. And sources have to be provided. Jagdfeld (talk) 09:25, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Sourced examples

These can be restored when sources backing them up are provided:

• Anglo-Irish journalist Kevin Myers, a controversial critic of Irish nationalism.
• Philanthropist Paul Getty, who became a British citizen
• Brothers Ron & Russell Mael of the band Sparks
• Madonna, singer/songwriter
• Courtney Love, singer/songwriter
• Johnny Depp, a fan of The Fast Show
• Science fiction/horror writer H.P. Lovecraft
• Australian-born UK citizen Germaine Greer
• The modernist poet and essayist T.S. Eliot, who became a British citizen
• American born writer Henry James, who became a British citizen
• Travel writer Bill Bryson
• Stanley Kubrick, who lived in England for many years
• Alexander Hamilton, American statesman and founding father
• Kevin Spacey, now living in London
• Tori Amos
• Carmen Electra has said in many interviews that she likes British culture
• Gwyneth Paltrow (married to English musician Chris Martin)
• Gwen Stefani (married to English musician Gavin Rossdale)
• Daryl Palumbo, lead singer of Head Automatica
• American band The Killers were accused of sounding too English on their first album Hot Fuss after saying that one of their influences was English band Oasis.
• Stanley Ho, Hong Kong business entrepreneur
• Nirad Chaudhuri, Bengali writer
• David Soul Hutch from Starsky and Hutch, now a British citizen
• Joseph Conrad, notable Polish author
• Gillian Anderson, American actress who grew up and now lives in London
• Annie Oakley, American sharpshooter, equestrian and actress
• Canadian comedian Mike Myers considers himself British - he has British, as well as Canadian, citizenship. His parents are both from Liverpool
• Guy Mollet, former French Prime Minister who proposed that France merge with Britain or failing that, be allowed to join the British Commonwealth.
• Hayao Miyazaki, director of Japanese animated films (it should be noted here that, generally speaking, popular opinion in Japan seems to be very pro-British, particularly English.)
• Alexander Marion, religious historian and collector of British Royal Commerative China
• Paul Mellon, American philanthropist and scion of the Mellon family.
• Kevin Sabo, American student who referred to the current reigning monarch of the United Kingdom as his King/Queen.
• Evan Rachel Wood was described as an Anglophile by The Guardian, an English newspaper, due to her dating English actor Jamie Bell.
• François Fillon, French Prime Minister is said to be Anglophile. He is also married to British citizen Penelope Fillon (born Clarke).
• René Massigli, French diplomat.
• Bob Tullius, American racing driver and founder/owner of Group 44 Inc. He is noted for his association with British cars which has they has always feature a line of British racing green at the side, as well as in 2004, donating his P-51 Mustang fighter plane to the RAF Museum at Hendon.
• Tunku Abdul Rahman, first Malaysian Prime Minister.
• Lee Kuan Yew, a former President of Singapore.

Assad

The concept that Assad is an Anglophile is a bit ludicrous. He clearly does not believe in British ideals such as parliamentary democracy, due process, common law, or the sovereignty of the individual. A single sourced statement, without anything more than circumstantial evidence, is not sufficient. - 64.222.149.167 (talk) 03:03, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Alex Salmond

This article is clearly a joke. Alex Salmond? Hates the English more than anything. 78.105.206.30 (talk) 14:50, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I Hardly think he does.(Butters x (talk) 18:59, 23 May 2008 (UTC))

Versions

The version to which I am reverting is an improvement over the other version as it removes trivia and uncited assertions. - Francis Tyers · 11:37, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

In fact you are removing a substantial portion of the article - sourced as well as yet unsourced - and doing so against the wishes of the other editors. There's some rule about that kind of thing. Jagdfeld (talk) 09:39, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

The fact that you like it does not overcome Misplaced Pages's policies. You are restoring a large amount of text with no references at all. On this, policy is clear. - Francis Tyers · 15:25, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Looking through we are now hacking at individual parts of the article rather than removing most of it, progress of a sort I guess. I do think we need to mediate this rather than remove whole rafts of material. CorleoneSerpicoMontana (talk) 12:09, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Material that is uncited is being restored, in violation of the policies of Misplaced Pages. I would implore that this come to an end. - Francis Tyers · 12:17, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

In fact you keep removing sourced material. (PS your command of the English language might be improved.) Jagdfeld (talk) 12:22, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

My doubt of that is substantial. Perhaps it could be outlined, outside of this talk page where it is considered I might be able to improve? - Francis Tyers · 08:41, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

It seems there is an overriding consensus that the version that Francis Tyers disrupts is the version to move forwards from.Londo06 12:28, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Consensus in violation of policy is not consensus. - Francis Tyers · 08:41, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Read through history and reverted to the agreed version. Come on the Mothers (talk) 08:44, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

The problems with this page

Apparently it becomes necessary to spell out in detail the issues with the version of the page to which the majority has a strong attachment. Please if you wish to respond, respond in the subsection below, this way we will be able to maintain a reasonably organised discussion, outside of the quotation.

Introduction/lead

"The term is often used in particular for people all over the world (in America especially in New England, New York, and elsewhere along the northern East Coast of the United States) who ostensibly base their business, political, or social practices on like of or admiration for English models."

This paragraph is uncited. This goes against Misplaced Pages's policies against uncited assertions.

Famous Anglophiles

This particular section is the most egregious in the whole article, and merits a thorough cleanup, if not outright deletion. In fact, the section was deleted during AfD. Note, this list includes living people, so should comply with the WP:BLP policy. To remind those unfamiliar with the policy:

"Be very firm about the use of high quality references. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons — whether the material is negative, positive, or just questionable — should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion, from Misplaced Pages articles, talk pages, user pages, and project space."

• Bashar al-Assad

"...Bashar is an Anglophile, who studied in London for two years, and he is close to another young reformist leader..."

This is from an article by Ewen MacAskill and Suzanne Goldenberg in The Guardian. The Guardian qualifies as a reliable source, as it is a mainstream news organisation, but this particular part of the article is opinion, and the article does not treat his supposed "anglophilia" in general.

• Bill Bryson - American travel writer

"Anglophile author Bill Bryson proves a genial guide to an ancient British footpath"

The article that is being cited doesn't say anything about Bill Bryson's supposed "anglophilia", but just mentions it in passing, a

• Tom Clancy - American author.

This entry is uncited. This goes against Misplaced Pages's policies against uncited assertions.

• Johnny Depp - American actor (lives in France)

Martyn Palmer: "It was no coincidence that Depp was in Britain at the time; he is an Anglophile, happiest working with British actors and crews."

Ian Nathan: "Even Depp seemed to change nationalities on set. “He’s a great Anglophile and goes round saying ‘bugger’ and ‘damn’ all day long,” says McNally. "

This site has two interviews on the same page, one is from the Mail on Sunday, and the other is by someone called "Ian Nathan". While I'd dispute whether the Daily Mail and sister publications qualify as the "higher end of the mainstream news market", certainly it shouldn't be excluded on those grounds. However, the first appears to be opinion. And the opinion of one person in particular, "Martyn Palmer", the gentleman writing the article. The second has an author, but we have no idea where it comes from. It might as well be self-published.

• Frankie Dettori - Italian jockey

• "An ardent Anglophile, he thrives on English culture: Frankie is an avid Arsenal supporter, has a line of frozen Italian food and was even awarded an honorary MBE."

This is from the Biography Channel, I'm not sure if it qualifies as a scholarly, reliable source.

• Bernard Herrmann

"And the American-born composer, a staunch Anglophile, well versed in English literature and an expert in English garden architecture..."

This article seems to be broadly in line with policy. It is written in a biographical tone, is referenced etc. If we are to have the list, this one could probably stay. Although I would question the utility of a list in the first place.

• Charlton Heston - American actor

"A self-avowed Anglophile, he was a hugely enthusiastic reader of the Aubrey/Maturin novels of the late Patrick O'Brian and was co-chairman of the American Air Museum in Britain. "

From the BBC, a reasonably reliable source. If he is a self-avowed Anglophile this would probably have been mentioned in one of his many scholarly biographies. This would be a better source and so I would probably remove it until then.

• Barry Humphries

"and were also the heroes of Humphries' Anglophile youth in Melbourne and Sydney."

This does not say Humphries is an Anglophile, but that his "youth" or "youth in Melbourne and Sydney" was an Anglophile one.

• Madonna - American singer and wife of Guy Ritchie

"What do the English make of Madonna's Anglophile makeover? Do they see her as some kind of Diana wannabe?"

I don't know if USA Today qualifies as a reliable source, isn't it something like The Sun ? In any case, this does not say that Madonna is an Anglophile, but has had an "Anglophile makeover". Dressing as a badger does not make one a badger.

• Richard Löwenthal German sociologist .

I can't check this reference as I don't have access to the book. It should probably stay as it is verifiable at least. See caveat regarding the existence of the section under "Bernard Herrmann".

• Howard Phillips Lovecraft - iconic horror author

"...providing him with a well-defined set of interrelated roles which he sometimes facetiously, sometimes tenaciously assumed: the Anglophile gentleman who upheld the most staid conventionality and lamented the "tragic rebellion of 1775-83,""

This doesn't state that Lovecraft was an Anglophile.

• Nelson Mandela

"Well, I have always thought that he is an Anglophile, and in a way it's hard not to be ..."

This is a flat out opinion, the opinion of Richard Stengel.

• René Massigli French diplomat .

I can't check this reference as I don't have access to the book. It should probably stay as it is verifiable at least. See caveat regarding the existence of the section under "Bernard Herrmann".

• Paul Mellon

This reference does not exist, therefore its verifiability cannot be checked. It should be removed.

• Hayao Miyazaki

This reference does not exist, therefore its verifiability cannot be checked. It should be removed.

• Guy Mollet - Former English teacher, who became Prime Minister of France in 1956 and in September of that year suggested to British Prime Minister Anthony Eden the idea of a Franco-British Union. After Eden turned this proposal down, he put forward the idea of France joining the Commonwealth of Nations but this was likewise rejected.

This seems to be well sourced, although I would change the wording. It should probably stay as it is verifiable at least. See caveat regarding the existence of the section under "Bernard Herrmann".

• Wolfgang Mommsen German historian

"A spell as a British Council scholar in Leeds at the end of the 1950s had made him into something of an Anglophile:"

Hardly a definitive statement. This should be removed.

• Gwyneth Paltrow

There is no reference to the supposed "anglophilia" of Gwyneth Paltrow in this source. Therefore it is not verifiable and should be removed.

• Stephen Sondheim

"I was hurt by the reception Sweeney got in London," he remembers. "I'm an Anglophile. The piece was based on Victorian melodrama, it's a love-letter to England. And if anyone should be able to do it, it's a British cast."

Fair enough, that is a direct self-identifying statement.

• George Takei

"brainyquote" is not a reliable source.

• Otto Heinrich Warburg

This entry is uncited. This goes against Misplaced Pages's policies against uncited assertions.

• Jack White

"Anglophile White Stripes show their gratitude by performing for Chelsea Pensioners"

The Daily Mail, see caveat above, is not what I would consider a reliable source. This article does not discuss the "anglophilia" of the White Stripes, in fact it addresses them as a block, not only Jack White.

• Evan Rachel Wood

"Wood is clearly something of an Anglophile. Even before she started dating Bell - they met on the set of a Green Day video last year..."

Opinion.

Fictional Anglophiles

"Dr. Frasier Crane - character on the American television sitcoms Cheers and Frasier; he was portrayed by Kelsey Grammer."

This paragraph is uncited. This goes against Misplaced Pages's policies against uncited assertions.

External links

"Anglophrenia" is a blog, linking to this goes against several points in the external link guidelines, specifically 1, 11, and 13.

- Francis Tyers · 08:12, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Responses to above problems

So the question is: why have you been indulging in what even you admit, by implication from the analysis above, was indiscriminate vandalism? If you have a problem with an aspect of the article, mark it as a problem and if it is not improved remove it. Follow the golden rules: Assume good faith. Work collaboratively. Don't get your knickers in a twist about small things. When you are dead, or get older, you might feel embarrassed at being a time-waster. Jagdfeld (talk) 08:50, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Please do not remove my talk page comments, nor those of other contributors. - Francis Tyers · 10:07, 30 July 2008 (UTC) Unintended. I have restored the comments you removed.Jagdfeld (talk) 14:20, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

"why have you been indulging in what even you admit, by implication from the analysis above, was indiscriminate vandalism?"

Vandalism is defined by WP:VAN, as "Vandalism is any addition, removal, or change of content made in a deliberate attempt to compromise the integrity of Misplaced Pages.", my edits do not fall under this category. As is clear from the above, and from my previous comments on this talk page I am acting in such a way to bring the article in line with Misplaced Pages policy. - Francis Tyers · 10:13, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

CLEARLY they do Jagdfeld (talk) 14:20, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

"If you have a problem with an aspect of the article, mark it as a problem and if it is not improved remove it."

This has been my strategy. I have marked sections to be cited, and since they have not been cited (improved) in 5-6 months, I have opted (as is suggested in the above quote) to remove them. - Francis Tyers · 10:13, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

NO. You have REPEATEDLY blanked large portions of the article Jagdfeld (talk) 14:20, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

"Follow the golden rules: Assume good faith. Work collaboratively. "

I am following the rules. I am working collaboratively. I am assuming good faith. - Francis Tyers · 10:13, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

NOT. You have given no regard to the CONSENSUS. Jagdfeld (talk) 14:20, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

"Don't get your knickers in a twist about small things."

Please do not presume to give me orders. - Francis Tyers · 10:13, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Have a shave. Get a haircut. Have a wash. Jagdfeld (talk) 14:20, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

"When you are dead, or get older, you might feel embarrassed at being a time-waster."

Please attempt to keep personal speculations from the talk page. - Francis Tyers · 10:13, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I am telling you to grow up. It is not personal. It is a comment on your activity. Jagdfeld (talk) 14:20, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Problems with Francis Tyers: repeated vandalism

It is now perfectly clear, given his history of vandalism of this article, that Francis Tyers should be blocked. Jagdfeld (talk) 08:57, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Useless list

I have no opinion on the article in general, but the list is totally useless. There are probably billions of people in the world who like England, and tens if not hundreds of thousands of people who like England are famous enough to have an article on Misplaced Pages. There's no way to rank people based on their love of England (to decide who should and shouldn't be on the list), and nobody is ever going to think "Gee, I wonder which people like England, let's look it up in Misplaced Pages". Zocky | picture popups 10:09, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

1. Second Chance: Two Centuries Of German-speaking Jews in the United Kingdom edited by Werner E. Mosse, Julius Carlebach, Gerhard Hirschfeld, Aubrey Newman, Arnold Paucker, Peter Pulzer , J.C.B. Mohr, London, 1991 page 135.
2. Watt, D.C. How War Came, London: Heinemann, 1989 page 73
3. When Britain and France nearly married, summary of Document's "A Marriage Cordial", first broadcast on BBC Radio 4 in January 2007. The document treated was DO 35/5264.

• NA-Class England-related pages
• NA-importance England-related pages
• WikiProject England pages