Misplaced Pages

Oppose

1. Oppose, behavior on List of people who have said that they are gods was unnaceptable all around. Hipocrite - «Talk» 05:00, 9 September 2005 (UTC). I'd like to add that I am reasonably uncomfortable with the behavior of some of my co-opposers. The scattershot commenting on this RFA all over is totally uncalled for. The attacks on this individuals motives are totally uncalled for. The poor behavior of others does not address my serious concerns about attention to detail and keeping a level head. Hipocrite - «Talk» 20:01, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

   I think I conducted myself quite well, given that many of us had to face a strong pride of authorship by a main editor of that article. So far, no one has been able to contribute to NPOV'ing the article, including myself and several experienced editors such as android, Friday, SlimVirgin, and others that came to help and attempt to reach consensus. The result is that the article is now protected with no clear way forward. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 05:34, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

   I really really didn't want to get into this, but Just prior to the page-protection contravercy, you removed a number of people from the list, all but one of them with an edit summary. The one without an edit summary? The one being consistantly disputed -> no edit summary edit summaryedit summaryedit summaryedit summary. Additionally, when doing your bulk removals, you left the article poorly formatted -> bad formatting version. Hipocrite - «Talk» 09:25, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

   It's not the first time Zappaz has completely trashed an article. Consider these before and after shots --Alterego 16:13, September 9, 2005 (UTC)

2. Oppose Zappaz has no sense fairness and uses double standards when pushing his POV that I consider extreme. I have been in constant disagreement and conflict with him since he entered Misplaced Pages on a number of articles, including Prem Rawat, Criticism of Prem Rawat (on the list of most edited articles), guru, post-cult trauma, apostasy, and more. And it is not because I am a narrow-minded anti-cult activist: user Ed Poor who is a Unificationist wrote that I am knowledgeable and fair about New religious movements. I disagree with Jossi: criticism of gurus, cults, new and alternative religion has very little to do with freedom of religion or lack of tolerance. And besides since when is the stated aim of Misplaced Pages to promote religious tolerance? I will soon compile a long list of inappropriate, biased, or erroneous comments and edits by Zappaz. Andries 10:18, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

   Most definitively, Andries has been extremely difficult to work with and our POVs have clashed over many article. But I have always conducted myself with civility, and within policy. Hope that Andries would have done the same instead of resorting to personal attacks. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 14:17, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

3. Oppose, i have seen Zappaz as extremly double standard when envolved in controversial topics.Thomas h 12:46, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

   Your opposition is noted, but please refrain from trolling for votes agains me. Thanks. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 14:17, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

   How farcical, Zappaz. "trolling"? "Trolling" makes it sound like Thomas picked people at random to say "Hey, you wanna vote against this guy you barely know?" instead of what any person can verify he actually said by following the link you provided, which is that since he knew I am not sympathetic to you (putting it mildly) he thought I would want to be alerted that you were being proposed for adminship, in which he is completely right. If it's incorrect to alert people to major decisions being made that you think they would care about, then stand in line, because you've not only done exactly that yourself, but personally instructed others to do so. -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:42, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

   AI was here. --AI 13:15, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

   Yes, and showing his true colors. -- Antaeus Feldspar 18:49, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

4. Strong oppose: Zappaz has been put on the administrator's noticeboard for violating 3RR, and uses double standards when involved in disputes. --Alterego 14:53, September 9, 2005 (UTC)

   I was never blocked for breaking WP:3RR. I was warned once since I started editing WP. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 15:21, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

5. Strong oppose: When Zappaz first appeared as an editor of the Prem Rawat articles, I did a search of Misplaced Pages to determine what other articles he had been involved in and there were almost no non-Rawat articles, and yet he was clearly an experienced Wiki-editor. It has been suggested that 'Zappaz' is a new identity of an existing editor created especially for his pro-Rawat work. It has also been suggested that Zappaz has been paid by the Rawat cult for this work. I would just like to add that if these allegations are true, then Zappaz has earned every penny as his dedication to portraying this cult leader in a positive manner is a credit to his professionalism. --John Brauns 17:31, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

   Editors: Please note that this is the kind of abuse I had to withstand from these ocassional editors that have no interest in WP other than using it as a platform to air their grievances. Note that I have sustained such attacks from ex-followers of gurus, anti-scientologists, and anti-cultists, for the only reason that I espouse an opposing POV to theirs. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 03:50, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

   Editors - do your own research - look at the when Zappaz's obsessive interest in editing Rawat articles started and try to find evidence of involvement in other subjects pre-dating this. Why would someone who claims no involvement in Rawat's cult suddenly appear and spend so much time on Rawat's articles? Judge for yourself. --John Brauns 06:16, 10 September 2005 (UTC)\

   Editors: John Brauns is using propaganda by employing a weasel ("It has been suggested that"..) to stir up anti-cult sentiment against Zappaz. --AI 13:29, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

   Editors: Please note that Zappaz states, as if it were fact, his version of why these disputes occurred. What he characterizes, martyringly, as "attacks from ex-followers of gurus, anti-scientologists, and anti-cultists", he claims happens "for the only reason that I espouse an opposing POV to theirs." However, as many of us have cited in this very RfA, the real reason we have opposed him is his shameless lack of integrity in pushing his POV via double standards and reprehensible gaming of the system (see account below of Hate groups and new religious movements). If Zappaz actually truly believes that all these "attacks" that he moans about occurred purely because of his POV -- then it goes to show again how poor an admin he would make, because it shows that never once did he assume good faith of the editors who clearly spelled out that it was his underhanded tactics they opposed -- and never once has he considered that maybe his actions are open to criticism. Do we really want an admin who is going to characterize any concern that ever comes up about his use of admin powers as "for the only reason that I espouse an opposing POV"? -- Antaeus Feldspar 16:04, 10 September 2005 (UTC) (P.S. If there's any doubt about the difference between what Zappaz says he's faced and what he's really faced, here is an example of a personal attack motivated by POV for contrast. -- Antaeus Feldspar 16:20, 10 September 2005 (UTC))

6. Strongest possible oppose! Zappaz has shown over and over basic untrustworthiness -- I would point you at the sordid fiasco of Hate groups and new religious movements for perhaps the prime example. Zappaz kept trying to insert into Hate group the fact that Elan Vital claims the former members it calls "ex-premies" are a hate group. Other editors such as myself believe the material should be removed, because nothing about that fact really illuminates the subject of hate groups in general. At one point in the editing, Zappaz finds himself at his limit of three reverts: , , . So what does he do? Does he respect the spirit as well as the letter of the three-revert rule? No -- with his very next edit, he creates a new article on the spot, starting it with a cut-and-paste of his preferred version of the section under dispute. Do we really need an editor who will look for new, sneakier ways to game the system? For a further illustration of why this editor cannot be trusted, read the arguments he made during the above revert war, that "if any other organization, controversial or not, (church, NRM, group, etc.) makes a substantial point of calling another organization or group a "hate group" and publish that in their literature, then definitively it should be mentioned in this article as well", and compare with his comments in a recent VfD about how a list article is too POV and deserves deletion because the items of the list are "a one sided POV expressed". If you find yourself tempted to vote for Zappaz because at one point you saw him (supposedly) disregarding POV to act on principle, take a closer look at his history and you'll probably see him upholding the opposite principle when that's what suits his ends. Misplaced Pages needs admins with integrity enough not to abuse their power. For that reason it doesn't need Zappaz as an admin. -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:42, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
7. Oppose as above. Borisblue 01:56, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
8. --Boothy443 | comhrÚ 05:26, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
9. Oppose for now. I have been a Wiki editor for approximately 3 years, and was also once (20+ years ago) a student of user Zappaz's current spiritual teacher, Prem Rawat. Also, I was the original founder of the organization ex-premies.org, towards which Zappaz appears to be most animately opposed, but which I have not been active in for approximately 10 years. Zappaz's very first article-text edit shows him deleting a critical link to his spiritual teacher at Zappaz's first article-text edit. For this deletion his only editorial explanation was: Maharaji in the Press - rv - not relevant to section. The section that the link appeared in was the external links section. Does this mean that to Zappaz, any criticism of his spiritual teacher is inappropriate? This does not seem to me to be consistent with Wiki NPOV policy. In Zappaz's last major article-text edit, again he did not appear to be following standard Wiki policy. This was Zappaz's last major article-text edit on 09/07. In this major edit, he inserted reams of undocumented assertions, presenting all of these as fact, all apparently aimed at undermining any potential criticism of Prem Rawat. In this edit he also again erased critical external links, such as the link: Gateway webpage explaining this deletion with the cryptic comment, mv to refs. All of these edits seem to me to show that Zappaz somehow places the priority of his need to defend the reputation of Prem Rawat over the need to let the simple facts plainly speak for themselves. When Zappaz demonstrates the understanding that in Wiki facts should always be allowed to speak more loudly than personal agendas, consistently demonstrating this over a significant period of time, then I will gladly support his nomination if asked, but not sooner. -Scott P. 00:13:00, 2005-09-11 (UTC)

   In an effort to reduce the polarization between "pro" and "against" Rawat factions that my RfA has triggered, I will respond to your above comments, assumptions and complaints (and to any other comment about this specific group of articles) after the RfA is concluded. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 14:46, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

10. Oppose. I have the impression, that ZappaZ does not always recognize his own bias (though he honestly tries to). Also there have been several instances where ZappaZ made a revert (and even a repeated revert) instead of discussing the matter and where ZappaZ did go against consensus of other editors. I do think that ZappaZ works at improving himself, but from an administrator I'd expect above average abilities in interaction with other users, and that's not (yet) the case with ZappaZ - which is also visible in some of his reactions on the votes here. --Irmgard 18:49, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

    Thank you for your feedback. I just hope that you and others recognize your biases as well. I am 100% for assuming one's POV, as we all have one and there is nothing wrong with it. I look forward to editing moree articles with you. Our forced "partnership" (by virtue of our POVs) as always resulted in better articles. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 19:05, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Neutral

1. Vote moved to neutral after reading Andries's and Thomas h's comments. Zappaz has enough experience but seems to be too controversial. — JIP | Talk 12:50, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

   I would appreciate thay you read the ongoing personal attacks from Andries. He is a ex-follower of a guru with a very strong POV against gurus and finds nmy edits controversial. As for Thomas, he is also an ex-follower of a guru, has contributed almost no content to WP, with the exception of advocating against his ex-guru. I would count with the fingers of one hand, those editors that see me that way. I would appreciate you read some of the talk pages, and reconsider. Thanks. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 13:54, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

   To my defense:Due to my minor english skills i haven't contributed that much, but that doesn't mean that i haven't read much either. You will find in Zappaz' edits over a long time the work of an active anti-anti-cult activist. See through his edits in the Prem Rawat articles that were his very start,moving to Hate Group, Apostate, Massimo Introvigne, Cults and many many others. A framework in favour of Prem Rawat and due to his declared bias of other NRM's. His work concerning neutral articles may be of excellent quality, no question. You have to decide if you want to vote for an excellent writer and buy with that somebody who has extremely one sided positions in certain topics or let him wait until he has proven that he can control his bias.*Thomas h 14:14, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

   Uhh, i have almost forgotten, Jossi Fresco the person who has recommended Zappaz, is an active follower of the guru Prem Rawat, and was once his personal webmaster. Please decide for youself if all that is some kind of an accidental happening or notThomas h 14:19, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

   Sorry people, you guys have argued amongst yourselves for far too long for me to simply step in and see who is right about what. I'm standing by my neutral vote. This will neither support or oppose Zappaz. — JIP | Talk 16:36, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

2. Currently too controversial for my tastes. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 04:16, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
3. Between the controversy and the odd distribution of edits, I'm not comfortable supporting at this time. --Alan Au 07:06, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
4. Like Zzyzx said, too controversial. Jobe6 18:32, September 10, 2005 (UTC)
5. Really concerned about limited focus: not only only 400-some distinct pages edited, but well over half (at least 2775 of 5294 total edits) are among the dozen or so articles/pages with "guru", "cult", "Rick Ross", or "Prem Rawat" in the title. Titles containing "Prem Rawat" alone counts for 561 of the user's first 794 edits (over a 4-1/2 month period). Niteowlneils 09:49, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

   I would appreciate some clarification (on my talk page, please) about why limited focus is a problem. I gravitate toward the subjects I study and that are of interested to me and that I can make a contribution. Should I spend more time doing janitorial stuff? That may be a good idea. Thanks. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 14:33, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Comments

• Disclaimer: I admit that I have had my share of conflicts with a handful of editors with opposing POVs. I am all for owning our POVs while at the same time respecting consensus building and working together toward NPOV. I have done both these things in all controversial articles I have edited. Editing these articles and dealing with the high tempers of some participants is not fun, and I have been the target of personal attacks, and conspiracy theories, due of my involvement in these articles. On the other hand, I have managed to build good working relationships with other editors that have opposing POVs to mine. I actually think that my exposure to these types of conflicts will make me a better admin as I understand what it takes to be exposed to and be effective in dealing with controversy. The editors I have had conflicts with are: User:Alterego in List of people who have said that they are gods; and user User:Antaeus Feldspar and User:Andries in numerous articles related to gurus, cults, and New religious movements; and several anons and occasional users such as User:Thomas h on Prem Rawat related articles. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 15:11, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

i find it noble from you that you admit that Guru and Hate Group are Prem Rawat related articles for you. With so much honesty that you have learned by now, you may earn your adminship Thomas h 17:01, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

• Don't forget Moral panic where you repeatedly reverted my edits saying that you'd consider them if they came from someone else, but, since I have a POV you don't like "it is unacceptable". Gee, that's swell behavior for a would-be admin -- ignore the content of the edit and ignore the reasoned explanation of the edit that you requested, and focus on your beliefs about the contributor! (Keep reading, folks, it gets better.) -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:42, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

• Jossi wrote in his nomination that "He has been instrumental in promoting religious tolerance" In other words, Zappaz has according to Jossi engaged in advocacy. An excellent reason to oppose his candidacy. Zappaz is the only person in the whole of the Misplaced Pages community who has often made me angry. I have to admit that as a result of his unfairness and constant use of double standards, I have used tough words about the quality of his edits (but not about him as a person). I also admit that because of the editing dynamics of opposing POVs between Zappaz and me, some good results have been created. Andries 17:21, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
• I have one more important point that i would like to mention: Since Zappaz startet at wikipedia, he has spent almost 4 month on Prem Rawat articles alone, for which he had done a research before for almost a half year, so his own words. The Edits were with the heaviest conflicts one can imagine. In Questoins and Answers Point 3 he only mentions Rick Ross ans Human by name. This i find a bit dishonestThomas h 17:42, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
• Messing up a list and leave the work for other editors Here is an article list of new religious movements that I created to which made Zappaz made unconstructive edits and has not helped to clean up the mess. He inserted among others Zen Buddhism to the list and the list may contain other groups and movements that clearly do not fit the various definitions. It takes a lot of time however to find them all and Zappaz has hardly helped. Here is the version of the article that I created Andries 19:00, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Zappaz's pointing out that that article is completely untenable under WP policy is praiseworthy. --goethean ॐ 19:05, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

• Failure to assume good faith of other editors (in this case me) This was a sincere mistake by me, not a bad faith edit. I had made this mistake because I remembered what the Member of the European Parliament and Chris Patten had written in e-mails that they had sent to me personally and that I had on my old HDD. In their e-mails they went much further than in their public statements. The other reason for my mistake is because of my lack of knowledge of the procedures of the European Parliamentary . Zappaz did not apologize until now. Andries 10:39, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
• Fairness. Zappaz mentioned above in an argument, the lack of my contributions to Misplaced Pages, because i am opposing him. He doesn't have a problem with the even lesser edits from Chuckj,Ruairidi or the vote from sockpuppet Senegal, which might be himself or another voter already voting for him. He inserted notes about my former membership of Prem Rawat but leaves out to insert the same to the current followers which are indebted to him for his work, so that i had to do it for him. In my eyes he is demonstrating here what he is up to do when he gains the rank of adminship.(maybe i am just to naive ,'cause this is the first admin election i am taking part) Thomas h 08:52, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
  • If this is your first time, I would encourage you to read about the role of administrators. If you do, you will soon realize that I will be held accountable to a much higher standard and that I will not be able to excercise any "privileges" in controversial articles I am editing without being challenged by my peers. So your fears are unfounded. Relax and please tone down a bit of the rethoric. This RfA is already super charged. You have made your vote, now allow the process to unfold without any more comments from you. Thank you.--ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 14:05, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
• Insisting on restoring opinions that should clearly go to wikiquote I had been blocked for re-inserting several times a NPOV warning to that article for among others that reason but the person user:Geni who blocked me did what I had been saying all along on the talk page Zappaz made no admission of being wrong nor did he apologize, as usual. Andries 21:43, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
• censoring repeatedly relevant information on the talk page and stopped doing so only after mediation See e.g.Andries 22:10, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
• *How much vitriol you can spread around, Andries? Should we post a list all of your personal attacks against Zappaz (such as calling him extremely biased, naive and ignorant)? Or should we post all the requests by Zappaz to apologize that you ignored? You have made your vote, and voiced your grievances already. I thing that it is enough already, let the RfA process continue with some degree of dignity. Thanks. ≈ jossi ≈ 22:30, September 11, 2005 (UTC)

Questions for the candidate
A few generic questions to provide guidance for voters:

1. What sysop chores, if any, would you anticipate helping with? (Please read the page about administrators and the administrators' reading list.)

A. I would like to spend more time responding to RfCs (I think that we all ought to dedicate more time to responding to these) and VfDs. Lately I found it rewarding to welcome newbies, and maybe I would start some kind of mentoring effort. My assessment is that WP shines in direct proportion of the number of people engaged. The power of the network coupled with the power of a community based on individuals with a passion. You cannot beat that. So, mentoring newbies could be what I could do (don't know if that is a specific admin chore, but it should be, IMO). I would also like to get more involved in helping shape WP policies. This is history in the making, and I want to be part of it. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 03:02, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

2. Of your articles or contributions to Misplaced Pages, are there any about which you are particularly pleased, and why?

A. That would have to be Names of God in Judaism. I took that article all the way from a semi-fotgotten article all the way to Featured Article status (with the wondeful help of User:Raul654 and User:Garzo and other editors, of course!). That was a very rewarding effort.--ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 02:39, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

3. Have you been in any conflicts over editing in the past or do you feel other users have caused you stress? How have you dealt with it and how will you deal with it in the future?

A.Oh yes... I have had my share of these conflicts. On specific articles such as Human, Rick Ross and other controversial articles, once I saw that I was unable to resolve conflicts and was getting "too involved", I will simple apply a self-declared moratorium and refrain from editing that article for a few weeks. That kept me sane, and allowed other editors to make their contributions. I found that the self-enforced moratorium or Wikivacation works wonders (and gives you the perspective that the power of the community to enforce NPOV is quite remarkable, even without your help...). I have a couple of editors with which I still have a hard time collaborating with, (in particular those that have accused me of POV pushing and resort to personal attacks, or to revert edits without discussion), but I guess that this is part and parcel of having a large community such as Misplaced Pages. I just hope that with time and patience, I can find a way to work with them as well. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 02:52, 9 September 2005 (UTC)