Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 18:56, 5 February 2004

This page is designed to host polls on deletion issues that span multiple articles.

Polls

Should lack of fame or importance be a legitimate reason to delete an article ?

Clarification: This poll is not saying something has to be famous/important to be included in wikipedia. It says does there exist some threshold of fame/importance which articles should exceed, without specifying what that threshold should be. That is it is on the principle should we include articles on everything or require some level of fame/importance. --Imran 20:19, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Yes

• Angela
• Imran
• Archivist
• Tempshill
• Jiang
• JeLuF
• Maximus Rex
• Dori
• Secretlondon - although needs quantifying.Obscure subjects are fine (and to be encouraged), articles aimed at children/young people are fine (all the video games etc), but someone who thinks they are a famous whatever and they are not, or someone who has a crank theory that exists only on usenet is not. Autobiographies are bad, self-promotion is bad.
• Wiwaxia
• Darkelf — but agreed with Secretlondon in that this needs some quantifying.
• Sean 23:21, 25 Jan 2004 (UTC)
• Tuf-Kat
• Kokiri
• Muriel - if not it would be unleashing hell
• Fennec - though it should not, of course, be the only criterion. If there are other reasons to delete as well, that would be better.
• Tompagenet - with common-sense (sic) applied to each case
• Bmills - but not on a simple Google hit count, please.
• UtherSRG
• Jimbo Wales - but see my NO vote as well! This vote is a token of expression of concern for the real issues that users in favor of this rule are raising, while my no vote below is an expression of where I think the real solution lies.
• Wolfram
• Finlay McWalter. Crap not promptly removed remains forever (and in practice gets wired into honest articles, until pages like List of historians is full only of those seeking to (vastly) enhance their Google presence, and the article becomes useless). Stuff that should be in the encyclopedia but is erroneously removed will (by definition) be reinserted (hopefully by someone else entirely). Yes, it's subjective - everything we all do here is subjective (bar those wikipedians who receive editing instructions de profundis). Misplaced Pages is not Angelfire.
• Texture - Encyclopedias do not contain "personals", resumes, or advertisements. Misplaced Pages is kind enough to allow personal user space for whatever you feel you need to say about yourself or others as long as you don't link to it from the general encyclopedia.
• Jwrosenzweig - I understand the concerns of those on the "No" side, but I personally have confidence in the names who are voting yes that we will not abuse this rule (if it goes into effect). If we use this rule to trample other people's beliefs and values, that will violate Wikiquette; if we use the rule (as I believe it is intended) to make the process of ridding ourselves of vanity-type articles easier and more painless, I think we'll all actually get along better.
• silsor
• Fuzheado, perhaps a better stating of the criterea, but some type of "importance" or "significance" is needed to be a Misplaced Pages article.
• Stewart Adcock - Yes, although being interesting should be enough to counteract such a deletion policy.

No

• Jimbo Wales - 'fame' and 'importance' are not the right words to use, they are merely rough approximations to what we're really interested in, which is verifiability and NPOV. I understand and appreciate where people are coming from on the 'Yes' vote, but feel that they will only get the unanimity necessary in a wiki environment if they rephrase the issue in those terms. Consider an obscure scientific concept, 'Qubit Field Theory' -- 24 hits on google. I'd say that not more than a few thousand people in the world have heard of it, and not more than a few dozen understand it. (I certainly don't.) It is not famous and it is arguably not important, but I think that no one would serious question that it is valid material for an encyclopedia. What is it that makes this encyclopedic? It is that it is information which is verifiable and which can be easily presented in an NPOV fashion. (Though perhaps only as a stub, of course, since it's very complicated and not many people would know how to express it clearly in layperson's terms.)

User:Optim: I agree with Jimbo. Optim 19:07, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Jimbo, I agree with you that there are many non-famous items that do belong in Misplaced Pages, but there are also many verifiable and NPOV-able items that do not belong in Misplaced Pages. Take some random web page, created by John Doe, age 13. It lists John's favorite TV programs, which Pokemon cards he has, etc. Is this verifiable? Certainly the contents of the web page are verifiable. Can it be written about in a NPOV fasion. Sure. Should it be in Misplaced Pages? I sure hope not. Obviously, this is an extreme case. My point is that we must think very carefully before we make any blanket statements about what should or should not be included. -Anthropos 18:34, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC)

This example proves my point, though, doesn't it? It isn't the lack of fame that makes the page objectionable, it's the lack of verifiability. It's just someone's random musings about a private matter, and there's no way for external confirmation or disconfirmation. Therefore, it isn't encyclopedic.

'Qubit field theory' on the other hand, is encyclopedic, precisely because there's a scientific paper about it, so we can say that thus-and-such Cambridge physicist proposed such-and-so theory, blah blah blah. And that's valuable.

Please address the following possibility: I take photographs of each tree outside my home and build articles giving the history of each tree, complete with photographs through the seasons. I do the same with the street lamps, describing the individual numbers and markings from damage and such to each. Each article is trivially verifiable by anyone who can walk down the street or was around for the bits of history described. Do they belong in the Encyclopedia, in general? If not, what threshold gets them removed? Jamesday 19:10, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC)

This example is better in a way and worse in a way, but even so, 'fame' is not what we're after. The information is not verifiable by the Misplaced Pages community. When I say 'verifiable' I don't mean 'in some abstract fantasy theory' I mean actually practically verifiable by Wikipedians. But more imporatantly, this information also violates another of our rules "no original research", which surely it is. The only way for someone to verify it is to replicate the research. The reason I say 'worse in a way' is just that the example doesn't seem to address any actual deletion controversies that we're ever likely to have. Jimbo Wales 18:56, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

• Anthony DiPierro - Misplaced Pages is not paper.

• Jack 09:40, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC) - "me too!"... really tho, you can see a debate on this on my user talk. deletionism is anti-wiki

• --denny vrandečić 17:11, Jan 28, 2004 (UTC) - too much material about too much is not really that bad, methinks

• tb - Maybe it's just the wording. I'm not really worried about deletion of "vanity articles", but I hope this doesn't lead to the deletion of non-famous and not very important towns, cultures, languages and other information. (Which I'm sure it's not intended to do, i don't mean to sound paranoid!) But I don't see too much wrong with an article about an obscure school, as long as they don't modify other pages inappropriately to link to it.

• Lizard King 11:30, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC) - Who gets to decide what is famous and significant? The Deletionist Armada, that's who. The object of this poll is completely ridiculous and, in principle, contradicts the very spirit of Misplaced Pages. If this poll is taken seriously it will give envious little gremlins with too much time on thier hands the excuse to destroy 30 to 70 percent of the entries on Misplaced Pages. Further, it just seems like this is clever way for some people to get more leverage on deleting the pages of wiki users they have a beef with, and that is basically it. So I guess you are saying you can have an article on Superman, but not on Krypton the wonderdog, because he is not as famous. What appeals to me about Misplaced Pages in the first place is that you can potentially find information on virtually anything. If you give editors on here the power to arbitrarilly delete entries because they don't think they are important they will abuse that power.

• Seth Ilys - "Importance" or "fame" are subjective criteria. My two (personal) criteria for inclusion of biographies, are 1) verifiability of information -- can someone who doesn't know the individual verify the facts (all the more reason to get a workable citation system up ASAP), and 2) linkability -- are they linked to (or could they reasonably be linked to) in a non-biographical article, excluding lists (which suggests that we also have a long way to go in creating non-bio articles). The non-policy at Misplaced Pages:Criteria for inclusion of biographies roughly suggests to me that one out of a thousand individuals are ultimately deserving of inclusion in Misplaced Pages. That sounds about right to me.

• ScifiterX More information is always better in my opinion. I agree that importance and fame are subjective. I also feel that deleting information is not only anti-wiki, it is contrary to the spirit if the First Admendment. I have the right to speak my mind. Others have the right to disagree with me. No one has the right to make it so others can't speak their minds.
  • Two points; a) Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia not a forum for 'speaking your mind' and b) the first amendment to the Constitution of Ireland extended to conflicts in which the State is not a participant the provision for a state of emergency to secure the public safety and preservation of the State in time of war or armed rebellion. Is this what you had in mind or do you imagine that the writ og the US constitution runs everywhere? Bmills 15:22, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC)
  • I happen to know Scifiter X is brilliant, first hand (just a little prone to accidental electrocution when repairing household appliances). Really the wrong guy to be correcting. The constitution of the United States of America is a model for MANY organizations, because it has proven to work and lend endurance to organizations that emulate it over time. Chances are, if an organization violates the spirit of such a constitution its going to serve to create a system that makes a couple of people happy and a lot more people miserable. Which was the entire aim of this poll to begin with. Contrary to popular belief the United States of America is not a Democracy; which simply equates mob rule or anarchy, it is a Republican Democracy, and as such operates on an entirely different set of principles.(: Lizard King 20:30, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC)
  • Freedom of speech is not the issue here. If Misplaced Pages restricts article pages in any way, it is not depriving anyone of their freedom of speech. We allow (almost) anything on user pages. If we are to use the US constitution as a model, we should remember that even there, freedom of speech has limits (e.g. you cannot place your poster on my front door without my permission). As much as we like to look at Misplaced Pages as "public space" it is not. It has a specific purpose, and all activities on Misplaced Pages are subject to evaluation based on if and how they serve that purpose. -Anthropos 03:10, 30 Jan 2004 (UTC)

• Jamesday The thresholds used today are unduly high for many things, so, overall, no, using them is harmful, even though I agree that there are cases where insufficiently famous is merited. Insufficiently important is far more often used inappropriately than insuffiiently famous, IMO and is the biggest factor driving this no vote.

WE MUST HAVE AN ARTICLE ON EACH AND EVERY ANT IN MY ANT FARM! - Arthur George Carrick

• Deleting articles might lead us to remove information on people or things whose significance does not become apparent until years afterward. It's one thing to remove patent nonsense, lies, and personal opinions, none of which serve to increase knowledge. It's quite a different thing to decide that a subject is not important enough that someone might want to know about it. A better solution to the problem, I think, is to see whether links to the article in question are warranted. If not, edit the links, and the truly unimportant stuff will get orphaned and only ever come up if someone actually does a search for it (unless it's a random page). As a corollary, we should edit our lists and should require some degree of importance for inclusion in most lists, as suggested in Finlay's Yes vote. --Michael Snow 18:24, 30 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Why?

Why is this poll being held? Where is the discussion in which people have put forward arguments for and against excluding articles on subjects that are not famous or "important", and tried to come to a consensus decision? Has there even been a centralised discussion of this issue at all? This fashion for solving disputes by polls has reached the limit of absurdity here. From Misplaced Pages:Polling guidelines:

Misplaced Pages is not a democracy. In general decisions are made by consensus (see consensus decision making) rather than a strict majority rule. However, on occasion it is useful to take a poll of opinions on some issue, as an aid to achieving consensus and an indication of which options have the most support.

Is this poll being used an aid to achieving consensus? Or is it just an attempt to suppress any attempt at reaching a consensus by sheer weight of numbers?

What we should do is move this page to Misplaced Pages talk:Inclusion of content or some such thing, and use it to discuss the reasoning behind this suggestion (assuming there is any), and try to come to a consensus about precisely what sorts of material should be ineligible for inclusion, and, just as importantly, why. -- Oliver P. 01:07, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)

On vfd the argument comes up several times a week whether any topic at all can be included in wikipedia or if criteria including fame/importance should be used. This isn't an issue where a "compromise" can be reached because it depends on the fundamental belief of the individual on what wikipedia is or should be. The primary purpose of this poll is so that when someone uses this arguement they can be pointed at this page and see what the majority of wikipedians believe at that time. --Imran 01:48, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Well, we'll never know if a consensus (nicer than a "compromise"...?) can be reached unless we try! Setting up a system whereby the community is forced to polarise itself into two diametrically opposed camps is not helpful. If we're just blindly pulling in opposite directions, we'll never get anywhere. Let's at least pretend to be rational people here. Even if it's not true, it's a good game. What happens is, we put forward arguments for our positions, and other people argue against them, and eventually someone persuades someone of something, and we all move a step closer to enlightenment. Hurrah!

I'm certainly willing to listen to arguments as to why it would be a Good Thing to exclude information from our encyclopaedia on topics that are not well known. As I say, if there are any such arguments... -- Oliver P. 04:13, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Several people wanted criteria for how famous one has to be. When I decide my opinions on subjects, I consider Misplaced Pages as a collection of encyclopedias on specialist subjects. For example, it would be reasonable for an encyclopedia of punk rock, Japanese history or conspiracy theories to be published (and they probably have been). Anything which would be in any of those encyclopedias is fair game. I oppose high schools, for example, because I doubt even an Encyclopedia of education in XXX country would include an entry on an otherwise non-famous high school, but even the most bizarre educational style or teaching tool would have an article, and thus can have one in Misplaced Pages. Plenty of extremely obscure punk rock bands, who perhaps existed for a brief period and never recorded, might have articles, but my friends' band, Lovenut & the Weird Beards, would not, even though I think they're quite good. I suppose this doesn't really help define any criteria for inclusion, because it depends on what I believe are likely topics for and in a published encyclopedia, but that's the criteria I use, and it has served me well. Tuf-Kat 04:42, Jan 26, 2004 (UTC)

I think that although lack of fame and importance of an article should be A reason to delete it, it should never be THE ONLY reason to delete it. - Fennec 20:03, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Who decides what is important and what is not? How can one decide what is important while maintaining a neutral point of view? I suggest that if the conclusion is Yes, it be implemented cautiously with guidelines which should be debated and not be rigid. - Hemanshu 20:03, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)

My opinion

1. Non-famous subjects in Misplaced Pages tend to be either people or schools. In each case, the article is typically written by the subject, or someone close to the subject. I believe this raises two immediate problems, of bias and of verifiability. To this extent I'm not stating that non-famous subjects should be deleted for being non-famous, however I am stating that if a subject is non-famous, then (by definition) the chances are small of there being other Wikipedians who can verify the information and counter bias. As such, these articles should be treated with extreme suspicion until corroborating sources can be found. In my personal opinion, this suspicion should extend to deletion if no external sources are readily available, i.e. the assumption here should be guilty until some argument for innocence is presented.

2. Misplaced Pages has a "random page" generator. It is already the case that something like 1 in 5 articles in Misplaced Pages is a stub containing raw demographical data for an American village or town. This makes the place look bad. If we also had an article for everyone who stumbles across the site, and another one for his dog, it would look appalling. This could of course be dealt with to an extent by biassing the random page generator, but when Misplaced Pages advertises "we have X thousand articles", I believe that it is dishonest not to qualify that with "of which several thousand are auto-generated from US census data". If any and all articles about someone's mate Dave were welcomed, we would have to add "and several thousand more are about otherwise poorly-documented subjects".

3. Yes, a judgement of "famous" is influenced by point of view. However, there are many other issues in the organisation of the Misplaced Pages which always are, and always will be, influenced by the subjective opinions of the authors. With a given article it is not possible to compromise between splitting it into sections or keeping it in once piece. It is not possible to compromise between deleting it and not deleting it. So if there is genuine disagreement on these kinds of issues, a balanced "NPOV" solution is impossible. The organisation of the 'pedia cannot be done from a neutral point of view, hence neutrality can be sacrificed to expediency in this case, and a "not NPOV" argument can't be applied on either side of this argument.

All that said, I'm not voting. I don't wan't non-famousness to be a criterion for deletion. However I can't see how Misplaced Pages with its current organisation could possibly be improved by large numbers of articles about very obscure subjects. Onebyone 22:38, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)

We serve the readers

We serve the readers. The readers should decide whether something belongs to the encyclopaedia or not. We should have a system to get readers comments and use them for deleting or keeping the articles. If the readers want Misplaced Pages to list biographies of all ants of Earth, we should allow that. We should get the opinion of all readers, or most of them, not only one or two. We cannot decide whether an article should deleted or not, if we don't ask the readers first. Optim 17:03, 30 Jan 2004 (UTC)

We ARE the readers

We ARE the readers of Misplaced Pages. We are also the writers and editors. The main concept is that this is not written by one group for the use of another group. Instead, it is intended as a collaboration by the readers. With this in mind, deleting in the manner done now is being done by the READERS. (Us) - Texture 18:18, 30 Jan 2004 (UTC)

There are many more readers that the paltry few who choose to edit, my friend. I began as only a reader, after having been reccomended to use the wiki by a reader (non-editor) and I often discuss the wiki w people who read, and do not edit. Do not underestimate the silent majority ;) Jack 03:38, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Deletion in general

What does it matter what the famouness of an article, or what you believe the usfulness is. There will be someone that will want to know about it, and thats what matters. Its an encyclopedia, a library of all knowledge. killographic was deleted because its a new word, well, I'm seeing it appear more often now, and 10 games are on poll to become the first retail Adult Only rated games because of this words invention. But nope, its new, so out it goes.

If an article actually contains information on its subject, it should stay. Or, - To reverse the context - As long as it isn't gibberish, or spam, or something that isn't related to the article, it should stay. People say its a dictionary word? So are many of the articles on here. Let it grow.

Of course, pages about a nobody that was made by them should be restricted to their user lookup.

Just my 2 dollars -Fizscy46 00:00, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Spirit vs. Practice

In theory, non-famousness is a fine reason to delete something, since it's not encyclopedic. In practice, however, I don't believe it works. I rarely see anon comments on VfD, and indeed that page is heavily tilted away from being "new-user friendly", full of slang and so on that takes time to pick up. As such, I'm forced to assume that the only people who get a look at most of the candidates there are a (relatively) small group of regular contributors. We ARE NOT a representative sample.

Much of the time, I don't know enough about a subject to say whether or not it's famous. For example, take the disputes over Wilfredo G. Santa. He may or may not have been famous enough to be in the Misplaced Pages. In that case, we were informed by the Spanish Misplaced Pages, but in the future we might have no such sources. And I don't know enough--nor does the relatively limited community of VfD contributors--to make calls like that. In such a situation, we have to follow the principle of least harm. Which does more damage: deleting legitimate content and alienating contributors (which will happen, if fame is the criterion) or allowing irrelevant content to sit? Nonsense should be deleted; things should be moved to other wikis, as appropriate; bad writing should be improved; but non-famousness should not, given the constraints of reality, be a criterion for deletion. Meelar 05:32, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I don't know about others but I certainly don't vote on the basis of whether I think something is famous. At the very least I do web and usenet search to investigate, more often than not I then go over to specialized databases such as Lexis-Nexis (newspaper archive), JSTOR (academic journal archive), the catalogs of the LOC and COPAC, and numerous full-text book archives. If something is famous it invariably shows up in one of these sources. --Imran 18:25, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)