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NLP Modeling

• Articles for deletion/Neuro-linguistic programming

NLP Modeling (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

Per Misplaced Pages:DEL#Reasons_for_deletion, in particular

• It is advertising or other spam without relevant content (but not an article about an advertising-related subject). The article is highly promotional (NLP is full of self-promotional terms). Please note the distinction between 'promotion', which is advertising and shouldn't be in Misplaced Pages, and a valid article about a scientific concept.
• The article is entirely content-free. Note the phrase is " says that know-how can be separated from the person, documented and transferred experientially, and that the ability to perform the skills can be transferred subject to the modelers own limits, which can change, and improves with practice". This is of course gibberish. You cannot 'perform a skill'. Either the NLP technique of copying a skill actually transfers the skill or ability, or it transfers the ability to copy the actions of skilled people. The first is impossible, the second is useless.
• The article cannot possibly be attributed to reliable sources, including neologisms and original theories and conclusions. * The article tries underpins the pseudoscientific basis of NLP by appealing to valid scientific notions like 'model'. In NLP, modelling someone's behaviour is simply copying the behaviour of a skilled person in the attempt to transfer those skills. Thus NLP is peddled as a miraculous method that can turn you into something you are not.
• The article fails to meet the relevant notability guideline. There is absolutely no need for such a huge section on NLP modeling. The effect of this subpage is to turn the article in to a “how to”.

Peter Damian (talk) 06:04, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

• Comment. As the closing admin for the very recent Afd, I am happy for this Afd to be left open for at least a day, despite my Afd closure notice which I still think is the right approach. I do think this Afd is too early and slightly inappropriate, but Peter has selected this as the most appropriate for deletion out of the previous bundle, we may as well evaluate it. John Vandenberg 06:19, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Don't understand. The previous AfD was for the main article (NLP). This one is entirely separate, and is for the subarticles. There was some agreement on the previous one that articles like this should be eliminated. Perhaps you misread the title? Peter Damian (talk) 06:22, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
    • Dont be silly. Or should I say, "Perhaps you didnt read the AFD closure I wrote on the last AFD".
      You did nominate NLP Modeling in the AFD, which was less than 24 hours ago, and I clearly said that this matter should be taken to a central talk page, and the right solution found via discussion. I left the door open to future renominations once that had been done, but here we are again. As you have only nominated a single page this time, I have let everyone here know that I'm happy to ignore the fact that you have just said "up yours" to me/Wikipedia/The Man/whatever, and gone against what I consider to be the right solution. The approach you have taken this time is A.OK with me. I merely wish you had initiated this AFD yesterday - we live and learn.
      On the last AFD there was no concensus to do anything - a few people did opine as you suggest, very early, probably without having reviewed all of the pages concerned, and their input was probably solicited via Misplaced Pages Review, for good or ill. John Vandenberg 07:57, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
      • You said "you have just said "up yours" to me/Wikipedia/The Man/whatever". He has done no such thing. Look at the discussion at Misplaced Pages Review and on my talk page. He asked for and received lots of advice. He followed that advice. By doing this. Your advice was not the only advice. Don't take it personal. WAS 4.250 (talk) 13:49, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

• Delete. Per WP:NOTGUIDE and by failing WP:N as a separate topic from Neuro-linguistic programming. Modeling is one aspect of that topic and is easily covered in a section of the NLP article. The spin-off page has no unique content or references and tends towards a how-to guide. --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 06:48, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
• Delete This is just group's original theory. Artene50 (talk) 06:53, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

• Delete. Concur with Jack-A-Roe there is a need for consolidation on this topic in general, some hard editing, more objectivity and fewer unsupported claims. This is one of the weaker spin offs and should go. --Snowded TALK 06:56, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

• Speedy Keep This article was just at an AFD which closed speedily and it is too soon for a renomination. Further, this AFD seems to be tainted by canvassing - see Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Rational Skepticism#NLP: deletion discussion. The nomination attempts to attack the article on numerous grounds but these all seem to be spurious in that the article has sources, content and does not seem to be blatant advertising or have an instructional style. It seems that any defects can be corrected by normal editing per our editing policy and that this should be considered first per WP:BEFORE. Colonel Warden (talk) 07:27, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Notifying a single WikiProject can hardly be called canvassing. --B. Wolterding (talk) 08:59, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
    • It's not just that WikiProject that's been canvassed. I came in this morning to a message on my talk page pointing me here. I also think that this is precipitate. I also feel that at least some of the criteria suggested for deletion in the proposal are transparently false. The article is not advertising (although it could do with copyediting to make it more objective); it is not content-free (trivially true - the comments from the nominator amount to style criticisms, not a demonstration of absence of content); we could probably use moure sources, but sources are not lacking (and the misuse of scientific terms is neither here nor there; to suggest that orthodox, 'legitimate' science has an exclusive right to common words like 'model' is obvious POV pushing; the only criterion I regard as valid is the last one - is this really a sufficiently notable aspect of the fringe practice that is NLP that it deserves its own article? The nominator, who styles himself a logician, ought perhaps to review the way in which he has gone about reviewing the NLP articles. That, and also re-read WP:SPIDER. AlexTiefling (talk) 09:12, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
  • This is a refined AFD, so I think it is very reasonable that Peter Damian notified a bunch of people who participated in the last AFD and the subsequent discussion at User talk:Peter Damian#Psychobabble. In addition, I notified the three projects that I quickly found in the discussion at User talk:Jayvdb#NLP : WikiProject NLP concepts and methods‎, WikiProject Psychology and WikiProject Rational Skepticism. I then notified the original contributor M.C. ArZeCh‎ (talk · contribs) who isnt very active, and all of the contributors to this article who have made significant edits, as they have an interest in the topic, and maybe also an interest in improving the article: FT2, JamesMLane, Action potential, DCDuring, PatrickMerlevede. Both Peter and I are trying to ensure we have a more productive AFD this time, and so have notified groups that can make it happen. As far as I can tell, both Peter and myself have both notified people from both sides of the debate. If the debate here doesnt lead to an obvious conclusion, the closing admin (which wont be me) will need to put a lot of thought into how these notifications affected the outcome. My apologies in advance for making their job difficult. John Vandenberg 09:42, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
    • The previous close was procedural and without prejudice due to the difficulty of evaluating a large group of articles of varying quality in a single nomination. Thatcher 16:22, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
• Comment I was personally notified on my talk page about the re-nomination. I was not encouraged to participate in either side of the issue. Personally, I think it's okay to notify potentially interested parties about an AFD discussion.--Paul McDonald (talk) 14:55, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

• Delete per Snowded. This fails WP:N and has no significance outside of the wider topic of NLP. Reminds me of game guides and other fancrufty material that spawns an article for each minor aspect of a topic. We're here to provide an overview, not a detailed in-depth explanation of every minor topic within NLP. The article itself doesn't actually seem to say much, the majority of it seems to be a quote and a list. Hardly surprising I guess as there are no reliable sources to provide any extra information, which in itself tells me the article shouldn't exist. naerii 09:03, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
• Delete This article describes, in a pseudoscientific way, a method for apparently observing person A's behaviour and abilities, and copying them to person B. The article's use of scientific language such as model, combined with a liberal sprinkling of words that will be attractive to almost everyone, is snake oil of the worst kind. For example, the learner works on minimizing preconceptions with access to the master ... and engages in unconscious micro-muscle modeling so as to accurately reproduce the desired skill. This is patent nonsense, totally unsupported by any evidence, scientific study, or even an example. Poltair (talk) 10:36, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Education-related deletion discussions. -- John Vandenberg 09:56, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Language-related deletion discussions. -- John Vandenberg 09:57, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
• Delete non notable, and frankly unreadable. Dbrodbeck (talk) 11:57, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
• delete, summarising anything in the rare event that anything genuinely is useful rather than verbose, and not already mentioned, in the main NLP article. Interestingly, the NLP article is not too long so they can't say all these articles are here to stop the main articles' length being excessive. I seem to sadly know a bit about the subject lol, and 'modelling' is an important part of NLP but 'within NLP'. The concept in part already existed, they didn't invent it, it's called a role model, they just expanded upon it and added spiritual beliefs about skill being 'contagious' to it. Sticky Parkin 12:38, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

• Delete unnecessary and poorly supported by independent evidence. The NLP walled garden needs pruning, and this branch is rotten to the core, so let's start here. Guy (Help!) 17:16, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't disagree these articles need ripping out and rewriting. They never really recovered from HeadleyDown, and I was uninclined to be part of the repair work on that topic at the time. Nonetheless the issue of whether NLP modelling is notable or not, and whether it has significant mention in reliable sources, seems well documented. The one-sided nature of HeadleyDown's POV warred viewpoint that started back in 2005 seems also well attested. You've said "poorly supported" but I'm not sure from the above, if you checked for actual cites (part documented at /Evidence). They're there, and there are a lot of them, and they're mostly non-trivial sources. (Can't guarantee 100% but I've tried to only include good quality sources). Can you review?

"POV issues" are not usually a good reason for deletion. That said, I wouldn't argue with a "delete - unfixable other than by a complete rewrite" view. My concern would be the historic POV nature of editing in the topic, which seems influenced by HeadleyDown by proxy, and an NLP proponent or two, in equal measure. FT2  17:25, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Re: Review. I would like to, but I'm not sure I have the time or competence. NLP deserves some kind of article, but the exact content, as well as the question of how many sub-topics and forks it deserves, is complex. Ideally, such decisions would be made by editors with knowledge of the topic but no axes to grind (from either point of view). I don't know of such a person, and I doubt I can become such a person in a reasonable time frame and taking my other obligations into account. Thatcher 18:03, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

The reason there are no editors with academic background is that they have all been banned. See my comments on Flavius below. I do know Flavius' real life identity but whether he could be persuaded back after his disgraceful treatment is a good question. Peter Damian (talk) 18:17, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Incorrect. Accounts operated by HeadleyDown were blocked. Third parties likely to have been recruited by him or editing in conjunction with him, or with evidenced ties to him, were prevented from editing on the topic by other administrators (not myself). That was the extent of administrative action. This was after a year's POV warring, dispute resolution, arbitration, numerous chances, arbcom mentoring, and a large number of blocks (none by myself), finally leading to a site ban for the entire Hong Kong sock ring. I was not an administrator at the time of these, evidencing they were the decisions of multiple others. FT2  19:38, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Also, what does FT2 mean by 'never recovered from Headley Down'? Peter Damian (talk) 18:18, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

• Delete The main article Neuro-linguistic programming seems sufficient without spewing sub articles all over the encyclopedia about less than notable subtopics. Edison (talk) 19:18, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

• Reply I'm tempted to move the majority of this to the talk page, for the convenience of the next 4 days' worth of commentors who will have no idea what is going on beyond the fact that they are being asked to evaluate a single article. I looked at Gestalt therapy as a model, being a subject that is more notable and has more scientific backing. It has one main article with no forks describing special terminology or world views, etc. I think the best ultimate outcome here is a single article on Neuro-linguistic_programming that fairly describes the concepts and criticisms. Picking off the sub-articles one at a time is one possible strategy but probably not the best. If someone could write a decent article we could simply redirect all the forks back to the main article. NLP does have some academic credence (although not a great deal); if it originated as an academic theory and moved into the realm of pop-psych self-help, it should be fairly easy to establish both its credentials and its criticisms. Thatcher 19:09, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

• Note -- Various accusations of bad faith etc have been moved to the talk page for those that have the inclination to read it. naerii 19:37, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Probably a good call. relevant to the AFD, but on balanxce probably right. In which case:

• Comment Evidence of significant coverage in independent reliable sources includes as follows (taken from /Evidence):

The nominator presented the following grounds for deletion: "It is advertising or other spam" - Not supported by the evidence. None of the following sample cites are "advertizing or other spam" "Entirely content free" - I'm not sure what this means. Clarification? "The article cannot possibly be attributed to reliable sources" - see below. It seems "possible" and indeed actual, within the context of what is considered a "reliable source" in most topics outside hard science/medicine (ie the "coverage" is not simply limited to just peer reviewed research). It turns out that the specific topic ("NLP's modeling methodology") is widely cited across a wide range of reputable fields and sources. Specifically, NLP modelling approaches seem to be very widely referenced by independent reliable sources. I found fairly quickly and with little effort, a wide range of independent reliable sources that specifically mention or focus upon NLP's modeling methodology. (I stopped looking after page 1 of 6): From PubMed (full papers not read, these need re-checking as I've relied upon abstracts): PubMed NLP communication model - Lachler J. 1991 Feb;84(2):74-6. German. PMID 2005751 PubMed NLP communication model, an introduction - Schneeberger S, Rohr E. 1991 Feb;84(2):70-3. German. PMID 2005750 PubMed The art, science, and techniques of reframing in psychiatric mental health nursing - Pusut DJ, published in "Issues in mental health nursing" 1991 Jan-Mar;12(1):9-18. PMID 1988384 ("Reframing is a powerful psychotherapeutic intervention... Fundamental assumptions of the NLP model are discussed") PubMed Neuro linguistic programming: an aid to management - Boas P, Aust Health Review, a publication of the Australian Hospital Association, 1983 Aug;6(3):38-40. PMID 10263094 From Google, a range of sources apparently published outside the "NLP world" with significant reference and/or coverage of NLP modelling: The SAGE Handbook of Counselling and Psychotherapy p.333 Engineering Psychology and Cognitive Ergonomics, 7th International Conference Proceedings, 2007, p. 533 onwards Routledge encyclopedia of language teaching and learning p.442 onwards Trends in Learning Research, preface ix and the entirety of Chapter 5 (of 7 chapters), eg p. 106 onwards. The Art of the Question: A Guide to Short-Term Question-Centered Therapy p.31 (per google books snapshot image) Modelling and Simulation Methodology (thumbnail snapshots) Psychotherapy and Mental Handicap p.211 Medical Aspects of Disability p.301 Designing Authenticity Into Language Learning Materials p.8-9 Other: Szalay et al (1993) Rediscovering free associations for use in psychotherapy American Psychological Association (APA) psychnet. Published in Psychotherapy: Theory, Research, Practice, Training. Special Issue: Psychotherapy for the addictions. Vol 30(2), Sum 1993, pp. 344-356 doi:10.1037/0033-3204.30.2.344 (evidence of cite) What Makes a Good Educator? The Relevance of Meta Programmes Assessment & Evaluation in Higher Education, v29 n5 p515-533 Oct 2004. Covers the model from NLP known as "meta programs". Site operated by Education Resources Information Center, part of the U.S. Department of Education A Review of Alternative Approaches to the Treatment of Post Traumatic Sequelae, Traumatology journal, Volume VI, Issue 4, Article 2 (December, 2000). Discusses NLP modelling within the context of the VK/D model, and concludes "The available evidence suggests TIR, the TRI Method, and V/KD are effective treatments for posttraumatic sequelae." See also Reflections on Active Ingredients in Efficient Treatments of PTSD, Part 1 at The International Electronic Journal of Innovations in the Study of the Traumatization Process and Methods for Reducing or Eliminating Related Human Suffering, covering the same work ("V/K D is a Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP) technique. NLP is a method of modeling...") Paper presented at the British Educational Research Association New Researchers/Student Conference - "NLP modelling in the classroom: students modelling the good practice of other students"

I stopped at this point. This much on a quick search suggests that NLP modeling is a topic that has significant coverage and interest by multiple independent sources, of a reasonable quality and credibility, outside its own field. As for the quality of the article, that may well need attention. FT2  19:50, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

As I said earlier (my comments seem to have been deleted) you cannot reference promotional material with other promotional material. Has anyone actually looked at the self-help books your Google search returns? They are self-help books. I don't regard these as reliable sources. Best. Peter Damian (talk) 21:36, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

(Point of order: Your comments were moved to the talk page of this page by an uninvolved admin. Thatcher 21:50, 12 August 2008 (UTC))

Comment Respectfully, I think it's safe to say that "self-help books" can be a reliable source. Perhaps not an academic one, but certainly How to Win Friends and Influence People could indeed have reliable contents. Certainly any editor may hold an opinion on any given source as reliable or not reliable. Let me ask: if these sources are indeed not reliable (and I'm not saying that they are), why are they not reliable? Just saying "I don't regard them as reliable" isnt' going to cut it--we need details, please.--Paul McDonald (talk) 22:00, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Self-help books and so on represent what someone talking about a perspective on life/a belief system believes. As such, they may be a reliable source for what that person/movement believes or a related movement, but not as near to evidence-based thinking as a peer-reviewed scientific journal. The same as if a book on reiki says "reiki has been known to cure people of ADHD for life in three minutes" (to quote a sort-of NLP-style invented example) that's not necessarily objective fact without proof from third party or uninvolved peer-reviewed scientific sources. It's just evidence of what the subculture itself believes. As to FT2's mentions, none of them of course are independent of the main topic of NLP itself, of which this article should be a part. However I will say that as someone with a passing knowledge of the subject, this is a part of it that I knew of in more depth than some of the others in the prior group AfD which I suspect are far less notable. Sticky Parkin 23:10, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

A comparison of PD's characterization, and the actual titles and sources, shows a marked discrepancy.

It is hard to understand the logic in classifying 1/ an encyclopedia of language teaching, 2/ a reference book on counselling and psychotherapy, 3/ an international engineering and ergonomics conference proceeding, 4/ a summary of research in learning, and 5/ a medical guide to disability, as all being "self help books", much less Paul McDonald's point. That's the google ones. The other sample coverage includes coverage published in 6/ the APA's own journal "Psychotherapy Theory, Research, Practice, Training", 7/ a paper published in an established peer-reviewed journal and indexed by the Department of Education's systems, and 8/ a further paper in the probably reputable journal 'Traumatology'.

The characterization of all these as "self help books" and so on, seems at the least to be lacking evidence. FT2  00:26, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

WHAT? I folllowed this Google that FT2 provided and up pops a list of the usual garishly-coloured hysterically written books that I was talking about. E.g., here "So important is the skill of modelling that it has been said that NLP is modelling". The usual breathless claims of a book that is selling 'modelling' as a way to make your business run better and make more money (mostly for the charlatans who practice this nonsense). FT2, could you also confirm that you have no COI here? I believe you claimed once that you had studied in California with these gurus and you have a Master Practitioner certificate? No problem with that but can you confirm you have no current business involvement in this?

• Delete Per Guy, Snowden, Naerii's arguments. The sub pages seem less than notable, and concerns about independence of the sources as detailed by others. rootology (T) 02:36, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Can you clarify what exactly leads you to feel the subject matter is not documented in multiple, independent, reliable sources? See above - discussion in a wide range of encyclopedias, APA and other reputable peer reviewed journals, and multi-discipline discussion in reputable sources unconnected with "NLP" is good evidence of meeting WP:N.

See WP:JNN - "Concerns about independence of sources" needs some kind of reasoning, not just assertion against evidence. If the article is so badly written that delete and rewrite is needed then that's reasonable (see above). But merely "delete because badly written" is not an AFD norm (WP:PROBLEM). FT2  04:00, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I think delete for borderline notability as mentioned above, and also cognizant of Guy's long-proven claim that lots of people use Misplaced Pages to hawk all sorts of fringe pseudoscience games, conspiracy theories, and all sorts of other non-notable mischief. In more detail, for NLP Modeling specifically there are only three listed sources. Plus a forum link, which is inherently not RS, and that forum appears offline as well. There is a link to this page which is claimed to be NLP modeling inspired, but that page never even contains the text "NLP" so that appears to be an irrelevant external link, plus calling it NLP inspired appears to be possible OR. Jacobson, S, and his sidjacobson.com domain which is the "South Central Institute of Neuro-Linguistic Programming", is not an independent source. That leaves the first source, which just appears to refer to NLP modeling, but we don't have access to that book to verify, and it seems to be only used to trivially identify it in passing in the header. That leaves one source plus a bunch of guide-sounding information on what appears to be a fringe pseudoscientific discipline that doesn't have mainstream scientific acceptance, or else there would be a lot more sources from reputable mainstream science, psychology, etc. other sources to document it. It sort of looks like the article is a bit of puffery too, given that there are unsourced claims about uses name dropping Jesus, Sherlock Holmes, and Einstein. Overall, I'm satisfied with calling for a delete based on all of this. It just seems completely borderline. At best a stub (maybe, based on if community consensus decides to go that way after five days), not a detailed guide on one aspect of what based on the present article appears semi-notable discipline of likely fringe science. I hope that cleared it up, and I think thats where I'll stand based on the present article as of today. rootology (T) 04:16, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

• Delete. Non notable, doesn't deserve unique article. Read the article three times. First time thought it was a spoof. Still think its dodgy IMMHO. Kaiwhakahaere (talk) 03:01, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

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