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Revision as of 21:14, 15 August 2008

Whitewashing

You've got to know that whenever you try to rewrite history and downplay these things, I'm going to be right in there expanding and clarifying.

"In 1920 due to return of Polish provinces to Poland, the Commission ceaased to function. Subsequently, most of German settlers returned to Germany."

Leaving out the role of the war ending, and making it sound like the surviving German land owners just got bored and drifted off is definately whitewashing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bwood (talk • contribs) 05:26, 20 August 2004 (UTC)

Events after 1918

I am of the opinion that the article should not mention events that happened after 1918, that is after the Commission ceased to function. The article contains descriptions of events such as: 1. Nazi expulsions and other Nazi crimes, 2. post-WW2 expulsions of Germans, 3. restitution claims. These events are not direct results of the actions of the Commission. This is not an article about Polish-German relations throughout centuries. I am of the opinion that this information does not belong to this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.111.156.226 (talk • contribs) 19:08, 15 November 2004 (UTC)

How to allege something in a subtle way: Category Anti-Polonism and what it implies

"Categories appear without annotations, so be careful of NPOV when creating or filling categories. Unless it is self-evident and uncontroversial that something belongs in a category, it should not be put into a category," says the Misplaced Pages guideline WP:CG.
Anti-Polonism is defined as "irrational fear or malicious hostility toward Poles". A wiki category implies that one thing is part of another, which means that the Settlement Commission had anti-polonistic aims.
I doubt that, for the simple reason that German nationalism is not necessarily anti-Polonism. If you support your team in a soccer match, are you anti-the other team? No, you simply want YOUR team to win. So I highly doubt that Bismarck, who you can judge as so Pro-German that when it comes to deciding whether Germany or Poland should have an advantage he'd prefer Germany, was anti-Polonistic and have therefore removed the category Anti-Polonism since it is at best controversial, at worst a misinterpretation, at any rate a case where the guideline above says it should be deleted.NightBeAsT 14:44, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Bismarcks speech was given to you in which he explains his actions are aimed against Poles.Of course you deleted it as soon as it was posted. --Molobo 17:25, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

And an answer to it you can find on Talk:Kulturkampf and on my talk page.NightBeAsT 17:37, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

21,866 German famiies settled, 154 thousands colonists altogether.

The precise numbers are 21.866 families, 154,000 settlers altogether. Andrzej Chwalba - Historia Polski 1795-1918 page 461--Molobo (talk) 20:29, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

More precise statement

The number of Germans increased, but the Comission failed to Germanise Polish territories as it was not enough.--Molobo (talk) 18:28, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

How / to what extend did the number of Germans increase (source?) Skäpperöd (talk) 20:13, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Source: Andrzej Chwalba - Historia Polski 1795-1918.--Molobo (talk) 20:54, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

How / to what extend did the number of Germans increase ? Skäpperöd (talk) 17:03, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

It didn't exist beyond 1918

So history after that isn't connected to its activity, however I think some of its members were very active Nazis, coming from the racist Pan-German League.--Molobo (talk) 18:31, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

You deleted: The Settlement Commision failed to achieve its goals to increase German population and German property in Prussian Poland, neither short- nor long-term. In 1918, after the German Empire's defeat in World War I, the Commission ceased to function. By then, only the number of Poles as well as the amount of landed property owned by Poles had increased. Furthermore, after the constitution of a Polish state in 1918, the German population in these areas declined by another 70%, and the land owned by Germans by 45%.

There is no reason for deleting the sourced short overview about the Commission's main goals and how they were (not) achieved. Also, there is no reason for deleting a short sourced mention about how these issues developed after the Commission was resolved. Skäpperöd (talk) 20:00, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

That the Settlement commission failed to Germanise and take over Polish territories was not deleted by me. The reversal of Germanisation after Poland was freed from German Empire is seperate issue and needs to be described in detail. Blanke btw is just one side of the coin and his views have been described by reviewers as pro-German so basing it only on his statements doesn't constitute NPOV i believe. --Molobo (talk) 20:36, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh, you did not delete the above paragraph? Come on, this article page has a edit history. Please do not delete sourced information.

And again, it is common in articles about historical events to include a short mention of how the covered issue further evolved. If you are concerned about the sourced statistics, provide evidence that proves the source wrong.

In your above statement, you agree Germanisation attempts had failed, so what reversion of Germanisation are you talking about? Skäpperöd (talk) 07:26, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Full Germanisation was not achieved, but there is no doubt that Germanisation was attempted and conducted in parts of Polish territories--Molobo (talk) 17:39, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Laws to expell further 2,000 milion Poles and Jews to make room for Settlers were created in First World War

"In 1912 the first and only four Polish large estates with 1656 hectares were expropriated ."

Laws aimed at expelling circa 2,000 milion Poles and Jews to make room for German colonists were prepared during First World War.--Molobo (talk) 18:34, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, of course... since the population of Poland was obviously something like 2,000,000,000 at this time... *rolleyes* - WikiReaderer (talk) 01:49, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I will clarify Nazi propaganda literature

I will clarify that the claims that German settlers were native to lands they were to Germanise were used by authors listed as pro-Nazi and whose works are named as Nazi propaganda literature. We shouldn't consider authors praising Nazi movement and making racist claims about Poles are reliable sources of information regarding Polish-German history. --Molobo (talk) 12:46, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Discussion was not about whether or not some of the settlers were natives of Posen/West Prussia, but about Baron Galéra being a Nazi. Thread is here

Skäpperöd (talk) 16:12, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Discussion was whetever a Nazi publication is a reliable source. The main opinion is that it should be only presented as portayal of Nazi views--Molobo (talk) 17:37, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Clarified Nazi propaganda and made clains precise

Clarified Nazi propaganda. Blanke doesn't say "only the number of Poles increased" but that there were more Poles then in beginning. He makes no mention if the overall number of Germans increased in that period or not, as wrongly inserted sentence could imply. --Molobo (talk) 21:59, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

It seems I missed a piece by the nazi author.--Molobo (talk) 19:14, 7 August 2008 (UTC) And another one. Will have to search Wiki if there is any other place where he is used. --Molobo (talk) 22:45, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Interesting source

Ethno-nationality, Property Rights in Land and Territorial Sovereignty in Prussian Poland, 1886-1918: Buying the land from under the Poles' feet? by Scott M. Eddie University of Toront

Will expand the article using this. --Molobo (talk) 19:24, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Is there a point to this sentence?

"Publications in Nazi Germany made claims that many colonists were German natives from the region. "
If so, finish it. If not, delete it. What is the relevence to *this* article? Bwood (talk) 14:06, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

No. Rm Skäpperöd (talk) 16:44, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Geiss quote

Why is half the section entitled "Political Background" filled with this quote during the last gasp of the Commission's existance? "Background" implies situations/events/etc that lead up to something. A discussion of the concept of Lebensraum would be more appropriate here, I think.

"German historian Profesor Imannuel Geiss in his scholary work on German designs for Poland during World War I, Der polnische Grenzstreifen 1914-1918. Ein Beitrag zur deutschen Kriegszielpolitik im Ersten Weltkrieg, writes that legislation was drafted by German leaders in preparation for a larger colonization effort, wherein some two million Poles and Jews would be removed to make room for German colonists in annexed territories of Congress Poland, while Poles within the German Empire's Polish provinces, obtained in the Partitions of Poland, would be "encouraged" to move out if they did not accept Germanization."

Bwood (talk) 14:11, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Rm per WP:UNDUE- does not belong here at all. Skäpperöd (talk) 16:46, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Dear Piotrus, before you restore this again, keep in mind that these plans were

• never executed
• based on the same ideologic background that led to the SC establishment, but else not related to the commission
• made in the last years of the war when the commission became obsolete anyway

The quoted plans are to be understood as telling the Germans "the harder your losses" (that's what they experienced) "the higher your future gains" - and therefore is in part propaganda to motivate a people getting tired of the war. The "real" part of the plans was the need to refill the treasure of the state emptied by the war costs. For that, it was presented as one option to annex territory in the east. For this article, the information is at least strongly overweight if not irrelevant at all. Skäpperöd (talk) 07:54, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Generalplan Ost was never executed but we have a whole article about it. That the plan existed and was connected to Settlement Comission is noted and notable enough to be mentioned. As to the rest of your claims-they are unsourced.--Molobo (talk) 19:13, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

That the plan was connected to Settlement Comission is noted Noted by whom? Until now a more than very distant relation has not been backed by anything. Skäpperöd (talk) 19:39, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Except for Professor Geiss. --Molobo (talk) 19:54, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

You did not back yet that Geiss connected the plan to the Settlement Commission. Skäpperöd (talk) 20:49, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh its on several pages. Page 32, 71...--Molobo (talk) 20:57, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Besides you ignore the fact of deleting information why the attempt started and what was its motivation as well as background, presenting only misleading information about about Prussian court temporary stop of expulsion law.--Molobo (talk) 21:01, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

German Empire's sources

Sources from German Empire claiming that colonists were natives must be portayed in neutral way as there is question about their neutrality.--Molobo (talk) 19:33, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Please do accept that a substantial German population dwelled in the Polish lands since the Middle Ages. You are the only one who disputes that. Skäpperöd (talk) 19:51, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

That some Germans existed in Polish state nobody disputes. However this is about colonists brought to take over Polish territories. You adress the wrong subject.--Molobo (talk) 19:55, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Since you agree on the presence of Germans native to these territories, what is your problem to accept that some of them aquired land from the SC under favourable conditions? Skäpperöd (talk) 21:06, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

1. They were immigrants and colonists, not "natives". The question is about German colonists sent to Germanise Polish territories. Not about if earlier there was some other influx of Germans into Poland. Third German Empire which was an essentialy racist apartheid state for Poles isn't objective source of information about its treatment of Polish population.--Molobo (talk) 21:14, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Whitewashing

Sadly all throughout information about political background is being deleted.--Molobo (talk) 19:53, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

You one-sided added parts of the historical background (which is POV) in a section covering a different issue. Skäpperöd (talk) 21:06, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I added direct information from scholary work about the subject. One sided ? Care to write who claims German Empire's policy was not anti-Polish and didn't discriminated Poles ? Please remember to not use Nazi authors, as Baron Galera who you brought up earlier can't be used as credible source due to his admiration of Nazi party, racist comments and devotion to Hitler.--Molobo (talk) 21:14, 15 August 2008 (UTC)