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Recall Proposal

I propose to recall Elonka's adminship. My reasons for requesting reconfirmation are 1/ a significant number of editors think Elonka has exercised poor administrative judgment, as evidenced by the critical views at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Elonka‎; 2/ Elonka argued, against a very strong consensus, to have that page deleted; and 3/ Elonka has attempted to scare off critics from commenting at the RFC. I very much regret that it has come to this. I had hoped Elonka would listen to feedback and that recall would not be necessary. Her attempts to intimidate me are completely unacceptable.

Endorsed by

Jehochman 18:05, 6 August 2008 (UTC) Sarah asked me to strike. I will, out of respect for her, even though I do not agree with her assessment of the situation. Jehochman 19:34, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

1. Her conduct in conflicts is not what we want from an admin. Friday (talk) 18:18, 6 August 2008 (UTC) PS. to those who think the recall is premature because the RFC is ongoing.. I don't get it. She should not have the tools, and she should also learn some lessons from the RFC. Doing one of these things does not interfere with doing the other. Friday (talk) 02:30, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
2. I'm reasonably new but I think I'm of good standing. Verbal chat 18:30, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
3. Endorsed for the reasons given by Jehochman. Also because Elonka's insinuation against my own admin integrity here is another outrageous attempt to confine the RFC to her actual supporters, and to exclude the neutral. Note the edit summary (pah!). For my admin actions w r t the RFC, please see my reply to Elonka here. Bishonen | talk 18:33, 6 August 2008 (UTC).
4. Endorsed. The secret report has no support for 0RR. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 19:08, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

   Endorse. Why not? what's she got to lose? Numerous editors think she's displayed poor judgment, why shouldn't she be happy to go through another request for adminship? She stated that she would if six editors asked her to, if she succeeds it strengthens her. I don't really see why anyone should be an "admin for life". Alun (talk) 19:22, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

5. Consistently poor judgment in use of admin privileges related to ArbCom enforcement. Also, response to criticism has been far below the standard expected. PhilKnight (talk) 19:32, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
6. After reading the draft report of the Working Group for the second time, I don't see that it empowered Elonka to act as she did. She was cautioned several times by both admins and editors that some of her actions were at odds with Misplaced Pages's core policies, but chose to question the credibility of her critics (in fact, to harshly criticize them in turn) rather than to try to address their concerns as being legitimate. This is not an attitude we can afford from an admin. It is with sorrow that I join the request for her recall.--Ramdrake (talk) 19:39, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
7. Amen.--King Bedford I 20:52, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
8. Endorse. Clearly a significant number of editors have concerns about Elonka's suitability to be an Admin. The fact the RfC is still ongoing is irrelevant to the recall procedure. If Elonka really wants to know if the community at large still trusts her with 'the buttons', then a reconfirmation RfA is the way to go. I just hope she'll honour her recall committment and not try to wriggle out of it. RMHED (talk) 20:54, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

   To clarify, I consider myself totally uninvolved, I have never had any interaction with Elonka. I just believe that if somebody has a recall committment that they should abide by it. Either they keep their word or they don't, or to put it bluntly, can they be trusted or not. If Elonka truly wants to know if the community still trusts her then a reconfirmation RfA will settle that and as far as I'm concerned the RfC would then be irrelevant. RMHED (talk) 20:49, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

9. Endorse, reluctantly, only after reading the admission that Elonka is concerned with conduct, ChrisO with content. All power conferred democratically requires, optimally, diplomatic humility in its exercise, a sensitivity to dissent and its reasons, a predilection for substance over form and above all, a readiness to submit to what Renan called the daily plebiscite. In the original casus belli, on the Mohammad al-Durrah article, the benefits of the exercise of her undisputed gifts were overshadowed by an extreme formalism, and excessive self-confidence in her judgement, judgements on conduct that consistently ignored the obvious fact that conduct is a means towards collaboration, while the fundamental point of encyclopedicity is secured by the quality of the content.Nishidani (talk) 21:42, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
10. Endorse... She ran for admin multiple times before finally being approved, and earlier failures were based upon concerns that she would use the power controversially, based upon her earlier instance of creating and egging on controversy. The last time she ran she promised that should would not make controversial edits as admin and step down if six or more editors certified that she'd overstepped her bounds. Instead, when more than six editors endorsed the RFC pointing out such concerns, she wikilawyered and encouraged an admin willing to ignore other admins' rulings and delete the RFC and its talk page instead of dealing with the issue. On top of that she responded with personal attacks, thinly veiled threats, and apparent total disdain for being held accountable for her behavior. She needs to step down, especially since her application for admin status and votes for her were largely based upon these promises. DreamGuy (talk) 22:24, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

    Re "find an admin willing to delete the RfC": I have seen no evidence whatsoever that Elonka asked Thebainer to delete the RfC. From the discussion on User talk:Thebainer it gives me very much the impression that Thebainer (TB) deleted it on TB's own initiative or based on discussion with others, not as a result of any communication with Elonka. Apparently after the RfC was deleted Elonka suggested that TB might want to also delete the talkpage. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 15:11, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

    That part is speculative based upon her documented previous actions of contacting other people through email or IRC and certainly in line with the evidence on that page, but overall insignificant to the greater picture. She did of course wholeheartedly support the deletion and argued strongly against the undeletion both of the talk page and the RFC itself, which proves that her intent was to try to make it disappear instead of accepting it and fairly working to resolve the conflict. She wikilawyers and games the system instead of following policy. And on top of that, if she weren't a liar she would have already voluntarily stepped down as she promised to do. DreamGuy (talk) 15:27, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

    I would appreciate it if you would modify your endorsement so that any pieces of speculation are indicated as such, rather than giving the impression that you're asserting them as if they're facts. I would also appreciate it if you would strike out the word "liar", since no evidence has been presented that when Elonka made the statement on her RfA that she didn't at that time have the intention of following through. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 17:08, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

    You have to be kidding me. Her intention at the time isn't the point. She made a promise to step down. She refuses to now, and was already refusing to when the RFC was up and people mentioned her pledge. That means she purposefully ignored her promise, which makes her a liar. If she hadn't been a liar when she made the promise (although, really, she has lied in the past as well), her recent actions have turned her into a liar. On top of that, she has accused whole groups of people of making these actions out of bad faith instead of a genuine concern about her editing, because she refuses to admit any wrongdoing. You seem to want to engage in rather pointless attempts at wikilawyering on her behalf. But just to be 100% clear I modified those parts of my endorsement that could potentially be wikilawyered on rather self-serving interpretations of certain words (for those people who want to look for loopholes instead of dealing with the real situation). So now instead of saying she shopped around (which is, again, well in line with her standard history of actions here) I said she encouraged it to be deleted, as she certainly did, both on that talk page, on ANI, and elsewhere. DreamGuy (talk) 23:42, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

11. Endorse. Elonka in reply to the 4th question on her 3rd RfA said that she was open to recall. She does not seem to be clear-headed enough to be an administrator: her stubbornness and her unswerving conviction that she can assess complex situations accurately on her own, against the advice of other administrators, lead to serious errors of judgement and prevent her from interacting in a constructive way with editors or administrators of long standing. At times she seems to be playing games behind the scenes, something that is not at all helpful for producing a scholarly encyclopedia. Mathsci (talk) 22:41, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
12. Endorse. This seals it for me. Too bad. -- Fyslee / talk 04:37, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
13. Endorse. This I saw this also, along with diffs about here and others that at least in my opinion is very uncivil to attemp to get others not to be involved in resolving any of this. I feel that if the garden variety editor behaved like this the 'block' button would have been hit for an indefinite and the drama would be swept away. I don't believe this is the behavior an administrator, any administrator or editor should be taking. --CrohnieGal 10:56, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
14. Endorse. This Admin has demonstrated very poor judgment in issues pertaining to WP:NPOV. Sarah777 (talk) 03:40, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
15. Endorse. A year after the fact, if I had it to do over again I would not have conominated Elonka's second RFA. A great editor, not suited to administratorship. I held by my pledge. Please hold by yours. Durova 23:27, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
16. Endorse, reluctantly. Please listen to Durova. Regards, Huldra (talk) 09:15, 8 August 2008 (UTC).
17. —Giggy 05:37, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
18. I had not previously commented here, as I saw no need at the time to pile on after the required six editor threshold was met. I had assumed that Elonka would keep her promise, but it now seems that I was wrong. I request that Elonka immediately relinquish her administrative tools before she brings further disrepute to herself and the project. At this point, I have no confidence in her as an editor, let alone an administrator. Keep your promise. HiDrNick! 00:12, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
19. When I first heard of his Elonka RFC business, my thought was that ChrisO was jumping the gun and that Jehochman maybe needed to disengage from the situation, after seeing Elonka's response to the RfC, my support dropped to around 50% from near 100% before, after today's response, I'd say my trust in Elonka's judgement is hovering around 0. MBisanz 00:17, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
20. Per today's response. naerii 10:43, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
21. Endorse per this, and this, and for abusing her position as administrator. Cardamon (talk) 16:55, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
22. I'm afraid I have to endorse due to mainly to her response below. Had Elonka stepped down and stood again for RfA, I probably would have voted her back into adminshop. Had she just unilaterally released herself from her recall pledge - while admitting that she had done so - I probably would have let it slide. But her response was so totally inadequate - dishonest, even - that I feel it's obvious that she can't be trusted with authority here. Those who side with her are a "consensus" or even "the community;" those who side against are a "tag team" and a "lynch mob." Their objections are in bad faith, invalid, not really premised on misuse of admin powers, and not genuine. Neither evidence nor argument is offered in support of these propositions; there is no acknowledgment of even the possibility that she may have made mistakes or exercised questionable judgment. I am quite disgusted. <eleland/talkedits> 21:09, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Six signatures are required. Jehochman 18:05, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually it is: "six good faith editors making a complaint about my use of admin tools at my talkpage, and I will voluntarily resign". I don't see what this straw poll has to do with the use of admins tools, as the opposition to this idea has pointed out in abundance. Chillum 15:50, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

To answer your question, while we may not be looking at admin "buttons" per se, it seems fairly clear that her use of her authority as an admin (in enacting special editing restrictions, in placing topic/page bans, which are both actions restricted to admins) is being contested. To say that this is not "using admin tools" is again, I'm afraid, moving the goalposts.--Ramdrake (talk) 15:57, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

The pledge specifically mentions "admin tools" as a condition. To say that actions not using admin tools are admin tools is moving the goalpost. There are more traditional venues to air a grievance with general admin activities, but this does not seem to meet Elonka's voluntary recall requirements. Chillum 17:31, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Well Elonks also stated My standards will be pretty straightforward. If six editors in good standing post to my talkpage and ask me to step down, I will immediately resign my adminship. there's no mention of admin tools in that statement. Take your pick of which suits you better, but the statement I link to does allow six editors in good standing to ask for recall, irrespective of admin tools. Alun (talk) 17:52, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Opposed by:

1. The RfC is nothing more than a heated rant by Chris0 over his unexcusable behavior towards editing. Despite being tied by editing restrictions that benefit the article as a whole, Chris0 has an attitude that it is "his way or the highway" for any other editors that may be involved with the article's point-of-view. The RfC is so broad that it now encompasses a broad spectrum that has now involved editors not even involved in the original dispute. It is a free-for-all for anyone who may oppose Elonka for whatever reason. seicer | talk | contribs 19:47, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

   _{See comment below for clarification.} seicer | talk | contribs 20:01, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

   I have opposed below, but this comment is particularly well-put! — TAnthony 21:32, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

2. Sceptre 19:49, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
3. None of the reasons for this recall petition are valid per her promise that "if six editors endorse a recall petition because I misused the tools". There is no misuse of the tools here. The reasoning for this petition is invalid per her promise. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 19:54, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
4. Absolutely not. Top admin, and this recall reads as much like a political vendetta as anything else. No serious evidence exists that she is a bad admin, in fact I'm getting just the opposite impression. Every admin has moments when they could've acted "better", but each incident can be dealt with on its own, and even with that being said, the cumulative impression I'm getting is still very positive. I get the feeling Elonka was in any case bullied into choosing recall because of the charmingly idiosyncratic circumstances surrounding her RfAs, and would encourage her to remove her name from this as it is clearly only going to be used in future to attempt to prevent her doing her job. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 20:07, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
5. See my reasons below. Acalamari 20:12, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
6. As I stated below, I find this recall petition premature and largely unfounded. - auburnpilot talk 20:16, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
7. Slow down, everyone. -- Ned Scott 20:24, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
8. With an RfC already in progress, it would seem that the proper action would be to see what the community response is there before passing judgment on a recall. Alansohn (talk) 20:28, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
9. Premature. Aren't there other steps in the dispute resolution process beyond an RfC that should be attempted first? AniMate 20:29, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

   Just as a clarification, Elonka may have some apologizing to do, but I haven't seen anything that requires her to relinquish her tools. The information from the RfC certainly doesn't qualify her for removal of the bit. And frankly, if not apologizing for rude comments, making insinuations about others without diffs to back them up, or pissing large groups of people off are grounds for removal of the tools, then more than one admin who has posted here should relinquish their tools immediately. AniMate 05:19, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

10. Absolutely not, see reasons below. --Leifern (talk) 20:45, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
11. This is starting to look too much like a mob attacking Elonka.--   Avg    21:14, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

    WP:AGF - by your reasoning, the more people who support a recall, the less reason to recall an administrator because it would just be a bigger lynch mob. This is absurd. The more people who endorse a recall, the more concerned we ought to be that there is a serious problem here, Slrubenstein | Talk 18:03, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

    I'm afraid you probably misunderstood the reason I called this the way I did. I'm referring to the action of starting an RfC and at the same time asking for desysopping, forcing Elonka to battle in two different fronts.--   Avg    17:27, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

12. Oppose, this is absolutely ridiculous for all the reasons that have already been stated. This is just more game-playing by certain people. 6SJ7 (talk) 21:40, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
13. Oppose. This is really out of hand, the evidence presented does not add up to squat. This is why admin recall based on voting is a damaging idea. Desysoped for arguing in a DRV?? No. Chillum 22:27, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
14. Oppose. As per all above reasons. Tundrabuggy (talk) 00:08, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
15. Oppose. Though a couple of the people asking for recall are people I hold in high regard, some are people pursuing old grudges that have nothing to do with her use of admin tools and some yet are people who passionately tried to stop her becoming an admin in the first place. I feel this recall is just wrong in so many ways. I have never been an Elonka "fan" or an Elonka apologist. I argued strongly against her in all her RfAs I participated in. But Elonka's response on the RfC is the most endorsed view on that page. I don't believe there is general community support for this recall and I recommend Elonka ignore it, and refine her recall criteria or consider withdrawing from the category altogether as jehochman has done and implement some other way for someone she trusts to give her a tap on the shoulder when and if it's time for her to stand down. Sarah 00:37, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

    Note, Jehochman is currently an admin open to recall. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:01, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

    Yes, he is now because I complained that it wasn't fair that he was holding Elonka to her RfA statement while he quietly removed himself from the category long ago despite his own RfA promises. So he added himself back into the category earlier. Sarah 09:11, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

    The condition for me recusing myself from this conversation is that I am not subject to further criticism here. If anybody talks about me, I will respond. Sarah, are you in the category? No, you are not. I don't like it much either. My recall criteria has been published since about Jan 22, 2008, with a link on my user page. I had removed myself from the category because I dislike the category and the way people are compelled to join even if they don't want to. However, at all times I have unequivocally stood by my pledge to resign if the community loses faith in me. I have no desire to cling to power or be a lame duck admin. Sarah, I request you to remove your comment and also this one. If you want to move this discussion to my talk page or yours, we can continue there. That will be better for Misplaced Pages. Jehochman 13:36, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

    SandyGeorgia's comments are shameful, and SG should just strike them out - otherwise they disgrace Misplaced Pages. Any admin is open to recall and at least a few people think that Elonka is doing a capable job of defending herself and support her. That we have this process of recall is one of the things that makes Misplaced Pages transparent and democratic. Do you disagree with the recall? Fine! Say so! But to try to bully the editor who intiiated the recall, to try to intimidate a fellow Misplaced Pages for using an appropriate process - you should be ashamed of yourself. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:03, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

16. Hideous. IronDuke 01:28, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
17. Oppose. No evidence of tool abuse. Jayjg 02:12, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
18. Absolutely not! Masterpiece2000 (talk) 04:43, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
19. Oppose. Application of Arb sanctions isn't tool abuse; discussion can resolve this issue. Shell 06:35, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
20. Definitely oppose (?), although I do not approve of her comment in Jehochman's talk page. (Not sure any more. Her response here is not exactly what I expected (and it was the second problematic intervention of hers in a row after her comment in Jenochman's page), and Durova seems to have indeed a point on certain issues.)--Yannismarou (talk) 08:50, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
21. Oppose. -Bharatveer (talk) 09:15, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
22. Oppose. This sounds more and more like a witch hunt. Ceedjee (talk) 09:30, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

    WP:AGF - by your reasoning, the more people who support a recall, the less reason to recall an administrator because it would just be a bigger lynch mob. This is absurd. The more people who endorse a recall, the more concerned we ought to be that there is a serious problem here, Slrubenstein | Talk 18:03, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

23. Oppose. I think firstly that this lacks community support, and secondly that questioning adminship should reflect an abuse of the tools which simply has not occurred. Elonka has acted appropriately in the situations highlighted - and like some above who have opposed this measure, I argued strongly against her in at least two RfAs. Orderinchaos 09:58, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
24. Oppose. Asking for a recall in the middle of having an RfC discussion is silly. We're not in a hurry. --Alvestrand (talk) 10:40, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
25. Oppose. Elonka is being accused of not listening ... to what? Where is the evidence of alleged initial errors on her part? In my comments on the RfC, I refuted the evidence provided by ChrisO, and as far as I've noticed no one has refuted, or even replied to, my refutations. Admins are allowed to make some errors, but I don't see evidence that Elonka has done a single thing that goes against consensus. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 12:27, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

    Comment. What about the consensus to merge Dysgenics: Genetic Deterioration in Modern Populations? There was a clear consensus to merge here, but Elonka insisted on having an AfD even though only a single editor was against the merge . She even claimed that there was significant opposition to a merge, so according to Elonka a single editor acting against consensus is "significant opposition". There's your evidence of her acting against consensus. The article of course passed it's AfD by miles. But it amounted to a pointless escalation of the situation and the pointless creation of Wikidrama by Elonka, to what purpose only she knows. Alun (talk) 13:17, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

    What about it? Any single editor has the right to start an AfD, I believe. It seems to me that it was a good choice in that situation, in order to go from a situation of editwarring with a strongly-opposed editor, to a situation where a clearly-defined process of broad community support had finalized the merge. It's not clear to me that there was a consensus against starting an AfD. Please don't confuse consensus for the merge with broad community consensus against going through the AfD process at all. Starting an AfD is in no way an abuse of admin tools; it's not even an admin action but an action any editor can take. Coppertwig (talk) 13:46, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

    I'm not asking for your opinion of whether it was a good choice. You stated that there was no evidence that Elonka had gone against consensus. Whether you accept that evidence or not is irrelevant, the evidence is there, all you need do is look. Likewise there is this evidence from AlasdairGreen27 ".. was resolutely impartial throughout. I have highlighted those two words for a reason. She did not, ever, make an effort to familiarise herself with the subject, nor did she factor into her thoughts the fact that there was one editor who was alone, without sources, claiming that Rab was a POW camp, whereas a "group" of other editors, backed by every source available, were of the informed view that it was a concentration camp.". Where she again ignored consensus to give equal weight to the pov of a single editor who lacked sources. Isn't that evidence that she has gone against consensus? Now I don't really care what your opinion of what she did in these situations is, but you stated that you had seen no evidence that she had gone against consensus. I have provided such evidence. You might also like to look at Comments by Antelan. Cheers. Alun (talk) 18:41, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

26. Oppose. I'm no fan of Elonka's but AFAIK ever the strongest detractors haven't pointed out a single alleged abuse of admin powers. – iridescent 15:45, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
27. Oppose - What admin tools has she abused? And the people asking for her recall because she feels that Jehochman is following her around giving her grief ought to be ashamed of yourselves, and that includes you, Bishonen. Too much over-sensitivity going around. Everyone needs to suck it up and watch yourselves before you turn into a kettle. Put away your torches and pitchforks and start gathering your diffs of admin tool abuse, otherwise, sit down and get back to work. (Formerly LaraLove) ~Jennavecia 22:23, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
28. Oppose, per my RfC comments here. This is ludicrous, children unhappy with their bedtime throwing their oatmeal at the wall. — TAnthony 07:25, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
29. Oppose - I appreciate any administrator who enters an article that has been controversial since the conception of wikipedia and is able to quiet the drama there. Personally I think there should be one appointed for every controversial article. Unfortunately, she seems to have struck the beehive and since the bees have nothing left to do, she's the target. The only editors that would have a problem with 0RR or 1RR would be those that intend to edit war. I'm not convinced that Elonka is getting in the way of creating a good article. These articles have not changed significantly in 6 years, they just go back and forth. Elonka just got them to stay in one spot for a little longer. Good for you. -- Dēmatt (chat) 02:30, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
30. Oppose - Hell no. Classic witch hunt. - Merzbow (talk) 02:44, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

    WP:AGF - by your reasoning, the more people who support a recall, the less reason to recall an administrator because it would just be a bigger lynch mob. This is absurd. The more people who endorse a recall, the more concerned we ought to be that there is a serious problem here, Slrubenstein | Talk 18:03, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

31. Oppose - In an ongoing Rfc the community endorsed many views with Elonka's view being the most endorsed. Considering the majority position was just expressed a short time ago the timing of this is inappropriate and forcing people to restate the same views they just expressed in the Rfc. Hobartimus (talk) 06:00, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
32. Oppose Ah, I was asked about voluntary recall in my last RfA (unsuccessful because I only had about 1400 edits at the time), and I said that I didn't think it was sufficiently well-formed as a concept. Six editors? Sure, that's fine if you don't run afoul of a substantial faction of editors, but do something truly courageous, this would be automatic desysop and the RfC and this request here show that. I've disagreed strongly with some of Elonka's activities, but, in fact, they did not involve use of admin tools. --Abd (talk) 23:41, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

    Thank you, Abd, for telling me and every other single person still on the recall list we lack "courage." As this appears to be the only possible way to interpret the continued adminship of those who have not been recalled, I mean. - brenneman 02:02, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

    In a previous ArbComm decision, when one admin responded to comment as I'd be tempted to respond to this, using colorful language, it was determined to be not blockworthy, being about the argument, not the person, however, there was some opinion that it still wasn't civil, so I'll refrain. I'll simply say, no, that isn't what I said, it isn't what I implied, and it is a strange stretch to make it into that. Indeed, you may have courage for being open to recall upon the request of six editors, if you are, but it could also be a foolish courage, given a situation like this. Quite simply, situations like this don't come along every day, so ... if you are courageous, you've been lucky. You have not had occasion to offend, with your actions, so many editors, while at the same time maintaining the support of an apparent majority of the community. --Abd (talk) 03:10, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

    Ahhh... So it's not that I'm too timid to have stepped on this land-mine-ish aspect of recall, just "lucky." Thank for clearing that up. I'll go back to editing safe, noncontroversial articles like pederasty now, and hope my luck holds out. - brenneman 03:32, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

33. Oppose - as per both Sarah and Seicer, who put it better than I could have. Enough with the vendettas, already. Do folk really think we cannot see them for what they are? - Arcayne () 04:39, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
34. Oppose As a veteran of the QW-NCAHF-SJB articles' "Sargasso Sea space of history", I applaud Elonka's efforts. I quietly supported the time & effort of JzG's attempts at resolutions that dealt with difficult problems, where I might disagree with JzG, but respected his efforts and intent as an admin. Those methods finally led to burnout, one-off limitations, mass dissention and some fundamental contradictions w/o resolving spaces like Quackwatch but did handle many difficult cases and made progress for a while. So I am going to suggest that Elonka be given some of the AGF support and patience that many gave during JzG's prime time to try to develop a more polished management method. One step forward at a time, Elonka should be given time & support for developing her methods. I support a level playing field that encourages or requires added value to content (including scholarship in Talk).--TheNautilus (talk) 05:58, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
35. Oppose — In my experience Elonka is a singularly disinterested and intelligent arbiter. It would be a great pity if so valuable a person's concern with the quality of Misplaced Pages articles and with responsible and polite editing by participants were to be lost due to this attack on her. Masalai (talk) 09:10, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
36. Oppose - in fact, Elonka deserves a barnstar for helping me recently with constructive criticism! Bearian'sBooties (talk) 01:48, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Neutral:

1. Neutral - What I see here is Elonka has said something and her very words have effectively snookered her. After all, if she doesn't fall on her sword based on her own words, then is her word in the future to be trusted? Unfortunately this is something that can be seen with Elonka is that she does not follow her own rules (any apparently) consistently. While she is only human, her failure to even acknowledge that she could just possibly make a mistake rankles a lot of editors. It is also clear that there has been a distinct drop in the level of confidence in her ability to be an admin, compared to her 3rd RfA. So she needs to ask herself what has changed in that time? If she ends up with the answer "Because I am doing something right" then she should immediately resign the tools. It's clear that she should review and understand Misplaced Pages policy first rather than ignoring those Community rules and forging off with her own poorly thought out experiments. In saying all this, I am neutral with regard to her desyopping at this point in time. I would personally like to see Elonka, like any editor with a RfC, to learn something from that RfC and become a better editor and admin. However if she decides that she has done nothing wrong, then she should follow the rules of her own creation and since six editors have recalled her, she should step down. This choice is hers however but how she acts in this regard will have consequences with her ability to function as an admin in the future. Shot info (talk) 01:09, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

   There has been a distinct drop? It'd be interesting to conduct a survey of those who voted in the RfA, I'd say it would be the same level or slightly higher as she has assuaged some doubters while, no doubt, alienating a few supporters as anyone does as an admin. Orderinchaos 10:01, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

   It is also clear that there has been a distinct drop in the level of confidence in her ability to be an admin, compared to her 3rd RfA. There was a level of confidence about her becoming an admin at her 3rd RFA. There is a level of confidence above. The two levels of confidence in Elonka's admin ability are different. It isn't about looking at the level of confidence that those voters in her 3rd RFA have now. Of course you can perform that exercise if you wish, but an easier option would be for the Admin in question to resign the tools, then reseek nomination. That would provide an immediate and superior answer to your question. Shot info (talk) 04:18, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

2. Given that there are sufficient users in good standing still endorsing this recall RFA, I can see that it is appropriate to have a recall RFA. I dont endorse Jehochman's request as I believe it is in error, and I personally believe that Elonka has broad support for her to continued use of the extra buttons on a day to day in the fashion she usually does. As a result I would prefer that those endorsing this recall withdraw their recall request, and instead focus on the RFC. The other options are to have 1) a recall RFA initiated while an RFC is also active, or 2) a recall RFA initated and the RFC shutdown, and those two options dont feel right to me. I would like everyone who has endorsed this recall to ask themselves whether they would prefer a recall RFA or to let the RFC proceed; or, have their cake and eat it too. John Vandenberg 07:16, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
3. I agree with John here: hosting a recall, no matter how legitimate or warranted, doesn't seem to be the right thing to do here. We should be focussing on the RFC and giving that a chance to "do its thing"... When or if it becomes apparent that the request for comment has not served to facilitate any substantial, positive impact on Elonka's conduct, then a recall may be in order. But let's not jump the gun. Anthøny 13:35, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Comments

At her RFA, Elonka said, "If six editors in good standing post to my talkpage and ask me to step down, I will immediately resign my adminship. --Elonka 01:51, 7 December 2007 (UTC)". Jehochman 18:21, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Comment: Elonka's response is the most endorsed in the RFC. Additionally, JEH, you might want to step back. Of your past hundred contributions spread over several days, around seventy have been about Elonka. I think all of your last fifty have been about her. Sceptre 18:18, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I am free to comment however I like, thank you very much. Jehochman 18:22, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

You are indeed. But talking too much about someone looks suspect. Sceptre 18:32, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

It is my style to concentrate on one problem at a time. Some people like to multitask. To each their own. Jehochman 18:35, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Agreeing with Will and I've advised Elonka to not entertain any recall involving Jehochman. Sarah 18:44, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

You did what? Her promise to step down voluntarily did not include an escape clause so open to abuse that merely assuming bad faith and making accusations of harassment means you could ignore it. DreamGuy (talk) 22:34, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

That's absurd. As I said below, if Elonka wants to remove her "subject to recall" status, there's no penalty, but that amounts to asserting that Jehochman is not an "editor in good standing", which is a clear NPA violation. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:55, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh, come now Arthur Rubin. Stating somebody is not an "editor in good standing" isn't even remotely close to a personal attack. That's a serious stretch. - auburnpilot talk 19:00, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

No, I don't think that's a stretch. It's an accusation. (By Sarah, if not by Will.) It could be made in good faith, but it should not be made except in a venue where evidence is provided. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 19:11, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Jehochman has been obsessively following Elonka around for months now. A crat recently threatened to start an RfC against him precisely because of his behaviour towards Elonka both on and off-site. He is not an appropriate person to recall her. I don't care if you take that as a personal attack or not, it is a statement of fact. Sarah 19:16, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

That definitely is a personal attack (you are nto above the rules here), and WJBScribe might as well be deemed a meatpuppet and blocked from taking any action in favor of Elonka for how often he shows up to do her bidding. DreamGuy (talk) 22:34, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Then DreamGuy, you are most welcome to find an uninvolved admin and ask them to block me because I absolutely stand by everything I have said. I don't think I could be classified as a meatpuppet of Elonka, hmmm? I opposed rather strongly all her RfAs I participated in, I voted to delete all her family articles I commented on at XfD and I took your side over hers in your dispute with her. Sarah 00:37, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

That 'crat is WJBScribe. He is a close friend of Elonka's. His email to me was very partisan, and repeated the character attacks originally made against me by Elonka. If you would get a review of this matter by somebody open minded, I would very much appreciate that. Jehochman 19:29, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Is "6 editors in good standing" 6 net editors? Avruch 18:46, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

That's nonsense. If she wants to revoke her "subject to recall" status, there's no penalty, but that interpretation is even more implausible than her interpretation of 0RR. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:53, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Six net editors makes sense. Acalamari 19:16, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

When she made the promise she didn't say net. More wikilawyering. DreamGuy (talk) 22:34, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

By that standard, the entire recall system and every individual administrator's recall standards (with a few, notable exceptions) are wikilawyering: by the very nature of the scheme, precise metric criterion are required in order for a line (whereby a recall discussion can be deemed to have a consensus for or against recalling the administrator) to be drawn. Yardsticks require some sort of scale, do they not? Wikilawyering may it be or not. Anthøny 13:44, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm confused about this. I've not followed a recall before so I may be missing something. Has Elonka actually said "6 net" anywhere? If not I assume she would be bound by Misplaced Pages:Administrators open to recall/Default process, which requires "at least six editors each having over 500 edits and over one month of tenure". -- ChrisO (talk) 21:28, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

It didn't come from anywhere, it just occurred to me as a potential loophole. Anyway - Elonka didn't commit to the default process, she outlined her own criteria. In this case the default process is irrelevant unless she agrees to follow it at some point in the future. Avruch 21:32, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Are the criteria you refer to the ones that Jehochman quoted above? "If six editors in good standing post to my talkpage and ask me to step down, I will immediately resign my adminship." Actually that's a more liberal criterion than the default policy, which requires "over 500 edits and over one month of tenure". -- ChrisO (talk) 21:42, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

It's more liberal in a sense, but it is also (obviously) less well defined than the default process. Which is why there is the question over net eds vs. any eds. Avruch 22:00, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Not sure about "less well defined" - the only point which seems ambiguous to me is what "good standing" constitutes. "Not blocked", I would imagine. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:42, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

• I am not happy with a recall at this stage, to be honest. I hoped that we would have waited until the RfC had ended and complete that line of dispute resolution before initiating any recalls. I agree with what Sceptre said above about Elonka's view on the RfC being the most endorsed, and note that it has endorsements by past opponents of Elonka. I think we should stop this recall, and continue with and finish the RfC. I don't think this is helping the current situation. Acalamari 18:50, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
  • My reasons have been stated. Jehochman 18:51, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

• If the WP:WORKINGGROUP report is to be released tommorrow, I'll defer my endorsement of this until then. If she's misinterpreting a secret document, in addition to the other activities, that's a clear reason to desysop. If the document supports her errors, then an appropriate venue is an ArbComm appeal of the committee findings, and her actions might be excusable, albeit wrong. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:53, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

• Although I haven't participated in the RfC, I have been following along, and this recall seems premature (I'd quite frankly advise Elonka to ignore it). It seems very "I'm not getting my way in the RfC, so I'll get it this way". I know that's not Jehochman's intentions, really I do, but this isn't the right move. - auburnpilot talk 18:58, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

So you encourage people to ignore their promises? That's pretty pointless. DreamGuy (talk) 22:34, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

• Well, many people concern about Elonka's ability as admin, but it would be much better that Jehochmann should not raised the recall request here, given these conflicts between him and her.--Besides, I could not find his name on the open call list. The RFC is still actively ongoing, so this request looks quite not "good".Caspian blue (talk) 19:02, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

• If she's "open to recall", then she should be open to recall, regardless of whether her standing is subject to other potential sanctions. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 19:08, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

• I believe it's a bit inappropriate to say that this or that editor shouldn't be asking for recall for either reasons of past conflicts with Elonka, because they themselves aren't open to recall, or for any other reasons except that they are not an editor in good standing. That would be contrary to the very wording of the recall clause, and would undermine its legitimacy (i.e., the recall clause is there but it's not a real option). If editors want to add or remove their name from the list, they should certainly be able to do so freely. Personnally I'll reserve judgment until the WP:WORKINGGROUP's report is finalized.--Ramdrake (talk) 19:25, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I think the working group's report is irrelevant. It has nothing to do with why the recall was proposed. Alun (talk) 19:33, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

If the working group had explicitly endorsed 0RR, then her attempts to apply it might be reasonable. My statement that it cannot be applied neutrally would have to be directed to the group or ArbComm, rather than to Elonka. But, as it stands, 0RR seems to be Elonka's idea, so applying it in spite of clear violation of the WP:PILLARS is relevant to her adminship. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 19:46, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

• This is a bit of a mess. Has Jehochman withdrawn his recall request? Are any of the signatories taking forward the recall, if so? -- ChrisO (talk) 19:41, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

He appears to have withdrawn his endorsement but not the request. Verbal chat 19:42, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Correct. There is a statement, signed by various people, no longer signed by me. Those people have endorsed the statement. Who drafted the statement should not matter. Jehochman 19:45, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

The default process, which I don't know if Elonka is using, says

I don't know her definition of in good standing either. The default process has a definition.

Personally, I think it is unwise to recall an admin over actions that an RFC is simultaneously reviewing when that RFC shows more support for the actions than it does opposition to them. It is doubly unwise before there has been a period for reflection on the input received by the admin whose actions being discussed. So I consider this petition, at this time, unwise. Even if it fails, the long run effect will not be good for the encyclopedia - and if it succeeds it will be even worse. GRBerry 19:51, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I think WP will survive whatever happens here - much worse has happened and people still contribute and wikipedia is still getting better... Verbal chat 19:54, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree, I don't see the fate of Misplaced Pages inextricably linked to Elonka's adminship. By the way, what's the point of "oppose"? The criterion for recall was six people asking for it, it's irrelevant how many people write "oppose", it is pointless. If they feel strongly, then they can vote for her when she re-applies for adminship, but as far as I can see there are six names recalling her, and she said she's step down if this happened. Writing "oppose" doesn't cancel out any of the endorsements, it's not a vote. Alun (talk) 20:02, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Note to seicer (please feel free to delete after reading): This isn't the RfC. Verbal chat

Comment: Seicer, can you please refactor? Your opposition reads like a direct, personal attack towards ChrisO rather than an opposition to recall. Thanks.--Ramdrake (talk) 19:52, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

It was not meant in that way, so I apologize if it came off sounding like that. I normally don't strike comments, but I will reword what I meant: the actions of the RfC is leading some to believe that Elonka needs to be desysoped, and I am making the comment that the RfC was constructed not in bad-faith, but in a broad sense that it cannot hold certification. A new RfC needs to be filed, and it needs to be made more specific, and only parties that are truely vested in the RfC should be alloted the time to construct the comments -- not every user who may have held a grudge against Elonka in the past (especially those who opposed her RfC). seicer | talk | contribs 20:00, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm uncommitted on the recall issue, but the fact that Elonka's response has the most endorsements of the RfC is a bit of a (unintentional I'm sure) red herring in a couple of ways. A number of factors, including the inevitable self selection bias, influence the endorsement numbers (true in any RfC, of course). Notification is certainly an issue, in this particular case. Additionally, I would say that the more numerous endorsements of Elonka's response don't constitute a consensus, just a plurality - and so not material to the recall.

Another factor is that Elonka's response is criticism of the filer of the RfC, as opposed to an actual response to the substance of the criticism directed at her. Personally, I'd like to see Elonka respond directly to the substance of the complaint as well as to those who believe she erred in arguing for its deletion. I've noticed, in her comments surrounding this event as well as some pointed out by iridescent, a troubling tendency to deflect criticism by attacking the critics and accusing them of lying and fabrication. An acknowledgment of valid concerns would be nice, even if she doesn't agree wholly. In any case, the plain meaning of her recall requirements seems to have been satisfied. Elonka should clarify whether the 6 editors required is 6 net editors, or any 6. Avruch 20:31, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with much of Avruch's comments above. Elonka has these troubling tendencies in how she reacts to criticism. This makes her unsuited to the job of admin. The recall petition is about whether she should be an admin. I've seen enough to conclude that she should not. There are many things being discussed at the RFC- this can go on regardless of the outcome of the recall. They're separate issues; let's not blend them together. Friday (talk) 20:38, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Avruch, that's exactly the point I was trying to make in the RfC. Would it be possible to ask Elonka to address directly the criticisms and answer them rather than question the credibility of the critics? That may go a long way towards helping some resolution of the RfC, as it currently comes across as a dialogue de sourds (not sure what the right English expression would be- transliterates as "deaf people having a conversation").--Ramdrake (talk) 20:39, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

There's a very similar expression in English, "dialogue of the deaf". -- ChrisO (talk) 21:18, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Chris.--Ramdrake (talk) 21:36, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

• Comment. Disclaimer: I have met Elonka in the "real" world, but bear with me here. The question is probably best phrased as Is Misplaced Pages better off with Elonka as an admin or worse off? I'm coming to the conclusion that anyone who actually wants to be an admin is nuts (sorry Elonka, and every other admin out there). I also believe that the more diverse the group of admins, the better Misplaced Pages is in general. By any measure I've observed over a couple of years of modest contributions, Elonka is not even close to being the "typical" admin. You want blandness? Dump her butt. I have to state that I also don't follow her battles with editors except in passing and in (unfortunate) amusement. But I can speak of her technical skills, and can vouch for them as being an incredibly positive. I was recently inadvertently blocked for technical reasons and without the expertise and intervention of Elonka would be a confirmed EX-WIKIPEDIAN for life. I think admins are janitors. And anyone who wants to get rid of this janitor, should be prepared to clean up more crap. I would speak of her personally, but knowing her, that wouldn't be appropriate. Read what I've written and weigh it as you wish. I'm going to continue to contribute to the greater good (as I see fit), in any case. And that includes staying away from the John McCain and Barack Obama articles for life! --Quartermaster (talk) 20:37, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

A janitor should clean up more messes than she makes. Getting rid of her as a janitor would mean less work for others, not more.DreamGuy (talk) 22:50, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

• I have often shook my head at decisions made by some editors wearing their admin hats. Some of them have an inflated view of their own judgment and knowledge, take a supercilious in their treatment of issues, and are thinly veiled POV warriors. And the worst of those who are outright dismissive of any criticism. But I will any day take an admin who takes chances while trying to do his/her best and is intellectually honest; over someone who sticks to narrow interpretations and narrowly stays on the correct side of the most technical interpretation of policy and guidelines. Elonka is clearly in the former category. If she loses her adminship over this, I am sure she'd be happy to find other things to do with her time, and Misplaced Pages would be worse off for it. And the bad guys would have won. --Leifern (talk) 20:45, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

The bad guys? Verbal chat

When you said "the former" I at first thought you meant "Some of them have an inflated view of their own judgment and knowledge, take a supercilious in their treatment of issues, and are thinly veiled POV warriors. And the worst of those who are outright dismissive of any criticism." as that's pretty much a spot on description, in my opinion, and as proven in her refusing to honor her promise to step down and her attempts to wikilawyer a valid RFC away. You either have a bizarre idea of what bad guys are or you don't know Elonka at all. DreamGuy (talk) 22:49, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I have commented at the RfC and can recapitulate my comments here if anyone wishes, but I do want to respond to two comments, above. First, one person opposed to this recall says it is just part of some vendetta by ChrisO. This is a severe misreading of the recall. MathSci and I both commented at the RfC on matters having nothing to do with ChrisO's specific complaints, and many editors endorsed our comments. This RfC is about a pattern of authoritarian behavior in a number of situations, and not about a specific conflict between Elonka and ChrisO. Second comment: someone above comments that someone has to be nuts to become an administrator. This comment gets at the crux of this entire issue, because it raises the question of what is an administrator. If being an administrator means taking on the responsibility unilaterally to mediate conflicts or to dictate behavior, well, yes, I guess one would have to be nuts to become an administrator. And this certainly comes close to the behavior of Elonka. But the point of the recall is, this is not the role of an administrator. And admin is someone trusted with certain technical abilities necessary to enforce Misplaced Pages policies that everyone would without doubt agree have been violated - like vandalism or 3RR - or to enforce community decisions that have wide support. Now, no one need be crazy to take on this role; it does require some vigilance but almost never invites any conflict. Elonka's behavior has led to a recall not because she was acting like the ideal administrator but precisely because she has not been acting like an ideal administrator - in once case subverting a community ban, in one case subverting a consensus to merge pages, she has sought to assume powers and privileges no administrator ought to have. This is what is at stake here. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:08, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Re "in one case subverting a consensus to merge pages": I disagree with this description of what happened. In the case I think you're talking about, I think what she did was to arrange for a clear, undeniable expression of community consensus (which happened to be in favour of the merge, as it turned out) to stop the editwarring. I would call that facilitating the expression of community consensus, not "subverting" it. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 15:48, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Coppertwig, there already had been a merge proposal, which was endorsed 5-1-1. The merge proceeded as is normal, and several days after the merge the lone dissenter started systematically undoing the merge. Elonka qualified this as a controversial merge; I would suggest WP:POINT disruption by a single editor to be closer to the mark. Several other editors and admins seemed to agree on this point.--Ramdrake (talk) 15:59, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

This is a damn fine demonstration of how "recall" turns into a circus. We have dispute resolution, we have people that will review evidence, we have all that but instead we are just voting on it. There is too much mob and pitchfork mentality going on here. Chillum 01:46, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

• I'm confused. What is Elonka's process? Did she ever say? This is a damn fine demonstration of why not having a crisply defined process, stated well before anything comes up, including statements about timing (concurrency with other dispute resolution processes, for instance), who can endorse, who can't, whether it's supports for the recall or net supports, and a host of other things, can lead to confusion and acrimony. I went round and reminded a fair few people they needed to get a process down on paper and committed to BEFORE they got recalled. Some did. (see Misplaced Pages:Administrators open to recall/Admin criteria) and some did not. I can't now remember whether I gave Elonka that advice, but if I didn't I should have, and if I did, perhaps she should have taken it. Has she asked someone to try to help her keep straight what all is going on? ++Lar: t/c 02:05, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

• There is a penalty. I respectfully have to disagree with Arthur Rubin when he says that: "If she wants to revoke her "subject to recall" status, there's no penalty,..." There is a huge penalty! Her credibility gets a huge scar. Our credibility is our currency here. She will be crippled. -- Fyslee / talk 04:51, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Quite frankly if Elonka does not now resign her adminship and re-apply, her credibility is crippled. She can claim that there are not six "net" endorsers for recall, but that was never clearly stipulated, and clearly many more than six have endorsed recall. Interpreting the rules in this way damages her credibility because it looks like moving the goalposts. Attacking those who have supported recall does not help her, it damages her because it is an ad hominem attack, besides she can't legitimately claim that everyone here who supports recall is "out to get her". So what choice does she have? Become damaged or resign with dignity and re apply for adminship. She will gain far more sympathy and support if she resigns with dignity and reapplies for adminship. Alun (talk) 07:26, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Or most people just accept that recall sounds nice on paper, but doesn't really work when tried. That is what's happened in the past when someone has come up for recall. -- Ned Scott 07:35, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. Recall can be messy and often unfair. Once you get enough users angry at you, a recall is started. Clearly, she's pissed people off, but she hasn't misused the bit. AniMate 07:55, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

For the record, despite my dislike of the recall process, I have certified a recall request in the past. However, while I had grave questions about the admin, there was clear (at least to me and others involved) misuse of the tools. The misuse included improper closing of a very controversial AfD and an improper protection of a Misplaced Pages space page where discussion was still actively going on. Elonka hasn't (to my knowledge) done anything anywhere near that. WP:Administrators open to recall is so vague as to be useless, and frankly without clear evidence of the misuse of the bit, this should be stopped. AniMate 08:11, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

What does "the bit" mean? Try to be clear and avoid jargon. I don't think there needs to be evidence of "misuse" of anything for an admin to be recalled, I can't find this condition at Misplaced Pages:Administrators open to recall/Default process. It simply states Administrators who use this process will submit a re-confirmation RfA or resign (their choice) if asked by six editors with over 500 edits and one month of tenure. If the admin does not add extra conditions as some have done on Misplaced Pages:Administrators open to recall/Admin criteria, but which Elonka has not, then six people are required for recall, then that's cut and dried. People should not sign up for these things if they are not going to stand by them. Claiming that there has to be "misuse" of administrative tools is again simply moving the goalposts. Alun (talk) 09:34, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

The bit is a phrase meaning "administrator status". If somebody has 'the bit', he or she is an administrator; if his or her bit is removed, he or she is removed as an enwiki administrator. Anthøny 13:48, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

I think it's a "bit" in the sense of a 0 or 1 on a computer. If there's a 1 (or 0?) in a certain place near the person's name then the software knows that that person is an administrator and lets them do administrator things. I used to think it meant the kind of bit that's put into a horse' mouth. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 13:56, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Please, not binary theory. :) Anthøny 14:04, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Not much theory is needed. A yes/no status, in computers, is often set, for efficiency, as a single "bit," which is, yes, a 0 or a 1, a switch that is on or off. So the bureaucrat "sets the admin bit" for a user (to 1, probably, and the software probably conceals this, i.e., the bureaucrat doesn't see the actual 0 or 1) to enable the user to have administrative privileges, or resets it to 0 to remove those privileges. Because wikis began with knowledgeable computer users, including a lot of software people, this is almost certainly the origin of the term "bit" as we have been using it, and the thing about horses is a coincidence, though an interesting one. --Abd (talk) 03:20, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

OK, how about this definition then: "get/take the bit between your teeth (British, American & Australian, American) to start doing something in a very keen way. When the team really gets the bit between their teeth, they are almost impossible to beat." Brou-ha-ha! Narnia and the North! LOL. ☺ Actually, I was thinking of it as more like taking on a harness in order to do some work: similar idea to the mop. The "bit" could represent sensitivity to community consensus. Coppertwig (talk) 16:06, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

• In the words of a famous lolcat, "Why am I in this handbasket and where are we going?" Shell 16:19, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Response

Thanks to everyone that has taken the time to post in this thread. I apologize for taking so long to reply, but I have been enormously busy off-wiki this week, including my company's annual convention. I am still going to be busy for a bit longer, but since I have some time at the moment, I wanted to post about the request for recall, and to clarify the statements which I made at my RfA about my recall standards, specifically, "six good faith editors making a complaint about my use of admin tools."

I had thought, evidently being a bit naive at the time, that when I pledged to be open to admin recall, that any such recall would be premised on an actual use (or misuse) of admin tools. I also thought, naively, that those making the request would be doing so in good faith, out of a concern regarding my use of the tools, and after other efforts to communicate with me about my actions had failed.

It is clear now that my assumptions at the time were in error. This was further exacerbated by the fact that when I was going through the nomination process, I genuinely was not planning to get involved in anything controversial, so I did not think that it would even be an issue. However, two months after I became an admin, the Misplaced Pages Arbitration Committee invited me to participate in the Misplaced Pages working group on ethnic and cultural edit wars. When I accepted the invitation for the six-month assignment, this led me into areas of Misplaced Pages that were some of the most intense "war zones" that we have. It also brought me to investigate some of the discretionary sanctions which had been authorized by ArbCom in controversial topic areas such as Eastern Europe, and Israel-Palestine articles.

Looking back on things in hindsight, I should have updated or at least reaffirmed my standards for recall, especially since I was venturing into tag team territory. As I have learned through the Working Group research, in some topic areas on Misplaced Pages, it is difficult to hold any kind of administrator role without a number of users arguing against any administrator action which impacts a member of "their side". However, if the recall standards even crossed my mind during this period, I guess I figured that I would still be protected by the "good faith" standard and "use of tools" standard, and I feel that those do still protect me. Everyone should still rest assured though, that I have definitely listened to the concerns of all of those calling for me to voluntarily resign. However, I am also listening to the comments of those saying I should not resign. The will of the community at this time, seems to be that no misuse of tools occurred. A similar consensus appears to be forming at the RfC. So, for now, I am considering whether I should just completely withdraw from the recall category, and/or rework my standards, since it is clear that a plain "any six complaints" makes it very difficult to distinguish valid from invalid concerns.

I encourage further discussion on this, especially at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Elonka. Personally, I still remain committed to being the best administrator that I can be, because I strongly believe in the Misplaced Pages project. I have no intention of misusing admin access, and seek only to help the project move forward in its process of creating high quality articles. However, if anyone still feels that I have genuinely misused admin tools, I encourage you to either bring up specific diffs here, post at the RfC, or to take the concerns to ArbCom. Thanks, Elonka 18:46, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Elonka, I might have advanced a similar argument last fall. When I set up my recall standards I had no reasonable expectation that an RFC would open on Thanksgiving, or become obsolete twelve hours later when RFAR opened, or that arbitration itself would deny me the chance to defend myself by proceeding to voting less than 24 hours after it opened. I had not pledged to be open to recall at my RFA--I joined the program afterward entirely of my own accord and could have withdrawn at any time, yet a promise is a promise and I honored it. You did pledge to be open to recall at RFA; I would not have conominated if you hadn't. After my example you might have revised your terms at any time. You went with this. Now that you have the tools, and an actual recall motion is underway, you attempt to redefine the terms ex post facto in order to avoid a reconfirmation vote. You accepted my trust and the community's when you stood to gain administrative ops; I for one exercised the good faith that you would not resort to parsing the fine print if a reasonable recall movement arose. You still have a majority support; please put it to the test as you promised. This answer undermines the value of the voluntary recall process itself. I urge you in the strongest terms to reconsider. Durova

• So basically you're not going to honour your promise to recall? Well, that's definitely shown me that you're not at all untrustworthy! naerii 19:22, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Another admin who doesn't honour their word. If you truly believed the community still trusts you, then you'd be ready and willing to run a reconfirmation RfA. This wiki-lawyering your way out of your committment is shameful. You have no honour and are a disgrace. RMHED (talk) 19:36, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

• You know, and I hate to be mean about it, but

  THIS

• is rather unambiguous. However, above, you seem to say, essentially, "I changed my mind, but I just forgot to tell anyone." You say that, at the time of your RFA, which was one of the most closely contested ever, you had it in mind not to edit anywhere where there was powerful controversy, but you almost immediately changed your mind.
• See, that can be very fairly called "deception." The most angelic reader would have to call it criminally unwise, and the most cynical would call it outright lies, but I think the average would say that it's deceptive to decide, for the week of the RFA, to not be in controversial areas and then, the week after, to go into them again.
• As for secretly intending that you would be recalled by allegations of "misuse of tools," that really isn't recall. That's something that RfAr works to remedy. You see, you don't need to endorse statements like the following (only at the head of your RFA #3):

  "Finally, Elonka has stated in the past that she likes the idea of the admin recall system, and plans to place herself in Category:Misplaced Pages administrators open to recall. She also has E-mail enabled, which is handy for users who need to contact her. I do believe that Elonka being an administrator will be a major benefit to the project, and I am honored to nominate her. Acalamari 23:00, 6 December 2007 (UTC)"

• to be "open to recall." To be open to recall, you're open to recall. Otherwise, if you blow the tools, you'll find yourself with an RfAr, so to say that now you always meant that you'd be recalled if you had misused tools means that either you or the whole project has serious misprision.
• To be sorry for the way you've been treated is your prerogative, but I have to say that what has bothered me far more than anything else is the use of the name and status of "I am an administrator," which is the one thing I feared most, and the arachnid off-Wiki correspondence to gather up action on controversy. The insults to serious, intelligent, and honest users like user:Friday and user:Bishonen, above, can even be overlooked when someone is drowning, but all of this ethical poverty and deception only moves me from neutral to agreeing with many others: you are not an administrator at Misplaced Pages, and you are not honorable. Geogre (talk) 19:35, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

(ec${\displaystyle \times }$2) To change one's mind about whether to edit in controversial areas is neither deceptive nor necessarily unwise. The word "criminally" seems excessive here. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 19:54, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I couldn't help but noticed the implied assertion by Elonka that everyone who asked for her recall did so in bad faith: I also thought, naively, that those making the request would be doing so in good faith. How long will she again get away from trouble by accusing her critics of bad faith?--Ramdrake (talk) 19:59, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, a principal reason I conominated her in the first place was because her skills as a cryptologist seemed like a perfect fit for the undermanned suspected sockpuppet noticeboard. She promised me she'd devote her energies there, but has done relatively little for it. Meanwhile she promised the community she'd avoid controversial topics, yet once she had the tools she went there. That's been problematic for a long time, since she needed three tries to pass RFA and made it on a close call the third time around. 0RR puts it over the top for me: obviously that's a use of administrative privilege; it just doesn't happen to generate a log entry. Durova 20:09, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

People are of course free to criticize Elonka for her decision. However, I would ask people to keep things as civil as they can: if you mean to change Elonka's mind, insults probably won't get the job done. IronDuke 20:25, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Was that directed at me in some way? I'd gladly refactor any portion that crosses the line of civility. Durova 20:57, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Apologies, Durova. No it was not directed at you. What I had hoped to do, by omitting specific names, was to lower the temperature, not provoke more name-calling. Thanks for asking me before writing an angry reply, it is much-appreciated (and an example we would all do well to follow). IronDuke 21:33, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

IronDuke I'd advise you to shift that remark to wherever it was intended to be pasted. It clearly does not belong in any way under comments made by Durova. As it stands it insinuates that both incivility and insults are present in her comments, which is of course untrue, and in turn extremely offensive. Thank you Nishidani (talk) 21:12, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the defense, Nishadini. Perhaps it isn't necessary to go quite that far. Let's keep the discussion focused and calm. Durova 23:58, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I think the comment was aimed at me. I, however, am notoriously obdurate. I will not obey those who cannot take into account the whole of what I said. Elonka had three RFA's, and Durova co-nominated on the second one. The first two failed. The third succeeded largely because of the "open to recall" clause and because of Elonka's stated desire to avoid controversy. Of course it's speculative of me to say that the RFA would have gone down in flames otherwise, but it is extremely likely, given the extremely narrow margin of the pass. Therefore, having an election day conversion is a betrayal of all of us. Promising to be good only when people are voting and then saying that she never meant it the way any person who knows out processes would is deceptive. My "insults" were assessments that I am forced to stand by. If people do not wish me to have such judgments, then they should go back and unwrite Elonka's explanation that she was open to recall only for a week and secretly meant that she would be open for demotion with an RfAr, same as every other admin. I, for example, hold no truck with the "open to recall" nonsense, but I have rarely had to worry about it. Elonka had to worry about it but seems to have been insincere. Geogre (talk) 04:59, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

You're right of course, Geogre, and I hope none of my statements about conomination confused or misled anyone. If any had that effect it was purely unintentional. Her second RFA did go better than the first, and it was during the second one that she first made a pledge to be open to recall. The whole thing was touch-and-go and it's fair to say that a number of factors had to line up perfectly to satisfy the community's concerns. A single change of heart afterward could be understandable, but Elonka has had at least three of those. Durova 07:12, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Geogre, I’m not in the habit of demanding people obey me, and even if I were, I have far too much respect for your contributions to demand it of you. In your latest post above, you lay out a perfectly articulate, perfectly reasonable argument as to why Elonka should step down. I have no problem with your doing that. What I have a problem with is raising the drama level for no good reason. I wouldn’t even bother addressing you specifically, if I didn’t have that same afore-mentioned respect, and faith that you are amenable to sense and reason. IronDuke 00:25, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate that, but, trust me, I was not intending to raise the drama level. I really was expressing my legitimate dismay that someone would actually announce that she meant it when she said it, but she didn't mean it after. I felt that it was necessary to lay that out in its stark form. I appreciate the respect and the avoiding of naming, but I really wasn't trying to insult. I was saying how I, a person who voted for Elonka's 3rd RFA, felt about the explanation. Geogre (talk) 12:56, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, this does seem to be a common thread - the insinuation that somehow the "opposition" is automatically wrong, uncivil, acts in bad faith and therefore can be discounted. I believe that that there is an expression for this behavour. And it's rather shocking that Elonka has told a few white lies to get her through her 3rd RFA. I'm sure that she isn't the first (and probably not the last) but it seems that her authority as an admin is now fatally comprimised. While she may still have the tools, she probably won't be viewed by the Community as being an admin. Sad, but entirely of her own creation. Shot info (talk) 22:54, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Shot info, in reply, please see the second sentence of my comment to DreamGuy. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 23:06, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I wonder if Elonka could please take some time to respond to the points raised by MastCell and Moreschi. Mathsci (talk) 23:57, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

A few follow-up questions for Elonka:

1) You've said that you will "listen to concerns". What will you do differently in future?

2) The main theme of this RfC has been that you have systematically made errors in judgment in relation to editors' violations of NPOV, OR and soapboxing. How do you respond to the specific concerns that MastCell and Moreschi have raised in particular?

3) Are you going to continue to enforce editing restrictions on the articles discussed in the RfC, or are you willing to hand the baton on to someone else? -- ChrisO (talk) 00:40, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Pardon me for jumping in here, but as for number 2, Elonka may wish to take into consideration that a majority of those posting have not agreed with that "main theme". With respect to the article that started off this whole thing, as of my last look at the RFC, 35 people agreed with Elonka that she acted properly, while only 10 agreed with you, Chris. As for number 3, it's sort of funny that you would ask that question. If she does hand it off, I hope it is to someone who is as evenhanded and courageous as she has been, and who will not let anyone "own" the article. 6SJ7 (talk) 03:14, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Or as Ramdrake pointed out, more people have endorsed comments critisising Elonka (137) at the RfC than endorsing her (102). One can "prove" anything from numbers, depending how one wants to interpret them. Stick to discussing substantive points, Misplaced Pages is not a democracy, constantly and frequently claiming that Elonka has "won" her RfC because she has all of 35 "votes" while ChrisO has 10 is not helping. This is not a vote to close discussion and you can't call an end to it by proclaiming the same point over and over, it is irrelevant, polling is not a substitute to discussion. Thanks. Alun (talk) 06:29, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I know 6SJ7 would like to make this "all about ChrisO" - that's why he's involved himself in this RfC in the first place (I gave evidence against him in an arbitration case last year and he's been sniping at me ever since). But you can't simply dismiss the fact that multiple editors and admins have reported essentially the same problems on multiple articles - Quackwatch, Race and intelligence, Dysgenics (book), Rab concentration camp and so on. I was aware from user talk pages and suchlike that there seemed to be a problem going much wider than just the article I've been working on. That's what convinced me to bring the RfC in the first place, since appealing Elonka's actions would only have tackled the symptoms, not the syndrome. Also, 6SJ7's focus on the number of "votes" is frankly idiotic. RfCs aren't there to be "won" or "lost" - as WP:RFC itself says, "RfCs are not votes. Try to have a discussion, rather than a "yes/no" segregation." It's an opportunity for people to give feedback in a structured way and (hopefully) for Elonka to listen to what's being said and take appropriate corrective action. So the number of "votes" is completely irrelevant. It's views that count, not "votes". -- ChrisO (talk) 08:04, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

"Idiotic"? Really. You are just digging your own hole deeper, Chris. 6SJ7 (talk) 16:48, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not going to labour the point, but might I suggest that before you comment on an RfC you take the time to learn about how an RfC actually works? Ramdrake's comments here are a good place to start. -- ChrisO (talk) 18:41, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

As a comment on Elonka's statement above. It now appears that Elonka is fatally compromised as an admin. She claims that "The will of the community at this time, seems to be that no misuse of tools occurred.", well I don't see that at all, how is the "will of the community" apparent to Elonka? How has she measured it? The point is that she promised to step down if six people asked for recall, and now she is reneging on that promise. Indeed some 20 people have asked for recall, while only 32 have supported her, clearly there is no consensus for her not to resign. If, for example six had requested recall and some twenty or thirty had opposed, then Elonka might have a leg to stand on, she could claim a clear consensus opposed recall, now she's claiming there is a "will of the community" that is somehow different to the consensus we usually work with. Clearly she is estimating that she will not get reconfirmed as an admin with this level of support, and I expect she's probably a little shocked that so few have supported her, she clearly would not pass a new request for adminship, so she's not going to resign. It's sad that she thinks it's so "important" to be an admin, it shoud be easy to give it up and if it's not easy to give up one should ask oneself why? As for "A similar consensus appears to be forming at the RfC." I can see no consensus on the RfC whatsoever, clearly Elonka uses a different criterion when it comes to people commenting on her than when it comes to articles. On articles Elonka seems to think that a lone dissenting voice represents "significant opposition" (see Zero g and the merge proposal for Dysgenics: Genetic Deterioration in Modern Populations where Elonka claimed "significant opposition" at AN/I, or the comments about RAB concentration camp posted by AlasdairGreen27.) Clearly for Elonka a single dissenting voice is enough for our core policies of WP:NPOV, WP:NOR and WP:V to be discarded, but a simple majority is enough for her to ignore the recall. I think that's hypocricy, if she thinks that a single editor is "significant opposition", then she should be easily ready to resign if twenty odd ask her to. She's fundamentally damaged now, no editor will take her seriously as an admin, and other admins will be brought in to all of the disputes she's dealing with because she just won't be trusted. This recall discussion and the RfC will constantly be cited as evidence that she is not even handed during disputes. She should have asked for reconfirmation for her own peace of mind as much as anything else, I fear she has made life a great deal more difficuly for herself in the future. Alun (talk) 06:29, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Elonka's promise repeated

Elonka promised that if six good faith editors ask her to step down she will. Well, we are waiting. Let her stick to her word . Itis time to step down. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:16, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Does that need to be said 200 hundred times (yes, exaggerated)? This is beginning to border on harassment excessive annoyance. - auburnpilot talk 21:18, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

It really is not bordering on harassment. Lets not throw that word around. Avruch 21:20, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

You're right, my apologies. I've struck that. - auburnpilot talk 21:21, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

As long as this point is ignored,I will bring it up. When Elonka fulfils her promise, or explaoms why she has decided to break her promise and why, I will respond appropriately. It is not harassment to abut somethng wh wrote when seking to be admin. It is rude not to answer a fair question. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:11, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

It may not be harassment (yet), but it certainly is disruptive (and perhaps a WP:POINT violation) to start a second consecutive section on someone else's talk page with the same heading and text -- even the same typo. (Though, if you do it a third time, fixing the typo would make it no less disruptive.) 6SJ7 (talk) 22:28, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

I fixed the typo. It is not disruptive because she did not repond to the original query. Instead a lot of other people commented - on her own talk page yet! - in effect burrying the request/question. I am reposting it so that she can respond before several others pile on and again obscure the question. Let's give her time to answer. If she does not and the discussion moves on in other directions, I will ask the question again until we get an answer. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:34, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that people aren't pointing out abuse of the admin tools. To get pissy that she's working in these contentious areas after saying in her RFA that she'd be boring, well, maybe it has something to do with ArbCom asking her to. Just my guess. So I'm assuming she didn't foresee that during her RFA. Repeating yourself isn't productive. It is, in fact, disruptive. ~Jennavecia 22:39, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm confused, does that diff point to arbcom asking her? Sorry if I'm just being dense. - brenneman 12:52, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

That's the diff of her accepting. FT2 adding her name to the project page as pending confirmation is seen here. Sorry for the confusion there. Jennavecia 13:38, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Speak for yourself. I have pointed out several times on several pages incuded the RfC how Elonka has abused her aministrative privileges. That is MathSci and other's point! It is what this is all about!Slrubenstein | Talk 22:49, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't know if Elonka is operating according to the policy statement on "tag teams" contained in this draft report and is applying it indiscriminately wherever she pleases. The policy is ill-conceived and seems like a rather misguided attempt to justify her own "experiments". Has any other administrator agreed with her comments there? The document looks like a way of rubber stamping administrators' favourite conspiracy theories. Perhaps similar guidelines were drawn up in Salem, Massachusetts. If this is the case, then she has abused her role as an administrator. Mathsci (talk) 01:13, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Mathsci, see the endorsements for admins and editors who endorsed that report. Sarah 01:30, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

On August 5th. Are you suggesting that Elonka's attempt to use this in totally unrelated and dissimilar circumstances was justified? To articles that were about science and anthropology, like Race and intelligence ? Surely you must be joking? Mathsci (talk) 02:16, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting any such thing. I just answered your question who agreed with the report. And that's it. If you want to know anything else about the report you'll have to ask those people who were involved with it. But I'd appreciate it if you didn't try to credit me with things I've never said. Thanks. Sarah 05:01, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

MastCell has analysed the "tag teams" point in the present context very well on the RfC. Do you in fact think that Elonka was applying this "tag teams" policy on Race and intelligence a month or two ago and, if so, do you think it was appropriate? Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 06:58, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

A plea for patience

I have no particular view of the particulars of this particular matter.  :) I see voices I respect and trust taking up positions pro and anti, and I don't know all the details, and it's sheerest cabalism to take sides based on who is on what side... so my interest is more in that what goes down here be orderly and polite and well mannered, and not reflect badly on the notion of voluntary recall.

So consider this a plea for patience. I mailed Elonka asking for clarification on a few points. She mailed me back. In her mail she indicated this weekend is a very hectic time for her, and led me to believe that she will comment further when things are less hectic. Can people throttle back a bit and wait to see what develops... there's no rush after all. Thanks. ++Lar: t/c 20:27, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Just when answers are required it's strange that for the first time in almost 3 months Elonka hasn't edited for over 48 hours. She does a disappearing act at the moment when her presence is most pertinent. Yet she can find the time to reply to your email but not the time to reply to the questions on her talk page. I just hope she isn't using this convenient breathing space to wiki-lawyer her way out of her recall committment. Time will tell whether Elonka is a person of honour or not. RMHED (talk) 21:05, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Somehow I don't think that is the kind of "patience" Lar was asking for. I would second Lar's request. 6SJ7 (talk) 21:10, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I have no objection to her waiting the 7 days in the "default" "open to recall" clause before requesting reconfirmation as an admin. However, if 6 editors remain at the end of that time, I'd expect her to request reconfirmation — or remove herself from the "open to recall" list. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 21:17, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

RMHED, it is that kind of jumping to conclusions that erode the credibility of the posse assailing Elonka. The amount of info being slapped onto this page would overwhelm anyone, it's a lot easier to answer an email than address a series of comments. — TAnthony 21:22, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

TAnthony, your choice of words to describe Elonka's critics doesn't help the credibility of those who support her, either. Shall both sides drop the unnecessary epithets and needless characterizations, please?--Ramdrake (talk) 00:39, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

No the important answer required is simple, does she intent to honour her recall committment or not. RMHED (talk) 21:28, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

(ecx2)(To Athur:)Misplaced Pages is not a bureaucracy. Lar made a generalized plea for patience, not one that is pigeonholed within numbers of days and editors. Let's all chill out, in other words. Can't we do that? 6SJ7 (talk) 21:34, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Agreed -- having a few days to dial down the heat would be a good thing. IronDuke 01:02, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Maybe Elonka has gone on vacation, or taken a couple of days off. Meantime maybe you could go find some other place to vent your spleen for a week or two. Get a job. Tundrabuggy (talk) 02:45, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Elonka is taking a wiki-break at the moment, and I talked to her yesterday, in an effort to diffuse the situation and to allow the discussion to continue at RfC. Please stop this badgering at her talk page and please assume good faith and show a little bit of patience. _{Not in reply to Lar.} seicer | talk | contribs 13:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

The simplest possible way to relax and diffuse the situation would be for her to take five minutes and make good on her commitment. I believe a note to a steward is about all that's required. This would be quick, painless, and drama-free compared to any alternative. The RFC discussion won't magically stop just because the recall business gets finished up- that's just a not-very-realistic straw man. I realize there are several who object to the recall- hell, I don't think the promise she made at RFA was all that sensible, but she did make it, with very clear terms. But, since the recall commitment is probably why she managed to squeak through, it'd be quite a slap in the face to the community to back out on it now. Her credibility is at stake. Some claim she's already lost it, but her next move here could do much to restore (or tarnish) it. It's up to her, and either choice takes only a few minutes. Friday (talk) 17:10, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Not to forget that if she accepts recall, she can resubmit for RfA right away, without having to wait. If the majority of the community supports her actions, reconfirmation should be only a formality. That would also be an occasion to open a limited verdict to a wider audience, something she has advocated more than once in the past (such as for the Dysgenics: Genetic Deterioration in Modern Populations AfD).--Ramdrake (talk) 17:29, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

To Friday: It seems kind of odd to say that her failure to resign would be "a slap in the face to the community" when a large majority of those who have commented on the recall are opposed to it. Some people will no doubt be upset if Elonka remains an admin, but "the community" as a whole will not. To Ramdrake: How about if all admins had to stand for reconfirmation? That would be much more fair, and it would be very interesting to see how many admins retained their position. 6SJ7 (talk) 17:56, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Pointedly, if a large majority of the community supports her, reconfirmation is indeed just a formality to pass. To 6SJ7, I am not asking for all admins to stand for reconfirmation. I am asking for those admins who have been the subject of a recall procedure by their own rules to submit to reconfirmation. If Elonka's rules on recall have changed, she should say so. So far, I haven't seen any indication from her that this is the case. There is no point to ask admins who have not been recalled to stand for recall as well (and BTW - I'm not an admin, in case you might be wondering).--Ramdrake (talk) 18:05, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Just to be clear, I am not asking anyone to do anything -- except to second Lar's request that everybody relax, and to not expect that what you want to happen is going to happen immediately, just because you think it should. 6SJ7 (talk) 20:05, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

If Elonka wants to wait the full seven days before closing the recall process, that's entirely her prerogative. However, I honestly think she needs to address the concerns of her critics and she needs to eventually (i.e. within seven days) respect her pledge of recall, or explain why she is withdrawing her pledge.--Ramdrake (talk) 20:52, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Neutral admins are just too valuable

Hi Elonka. I don't think we've ever communicated directly, but I'm assuming from some of your posts that you are familiar with me. I've been following this unofficial "community" desysopping masquerading as a recall, and I wanted to share a few thoughts with you. I'm really hoping you'll reconsider your pledge to resign the tools if only six essentially random editors shop up and ask you to. On a technical level, if all admins agreed to this, I feel quite confident that I could destroy any administrator – with ease. Forgetting about how easily people seem to be able to gin up legit-looking sock puppets after only a few months (NB: I do not now have, nor ever have had, nor want ever to have, any sock puppets of any variety), merely pestering you (pseudo-politely) over the course of a few weeks might be enough to get a mildly exasperated reaction from you, which might attract more critics, which might make you feel even more defensive. It's just too easy to game. In fact, a variation of this is going on now.

But the main reason I'd oppose your resignation is this: I spend a lot of time on articles related to the IP conflict. Like a lot of areas that involve war and dueling nationalisms, a lot of ugly stuff goes on, on both sides. What is desperately needed are truly neutral admins, an incredibly rare commodity (I think the reason for the rarity is that Israelis and Palestinians each represent a kind of magnetic pole, and tend to pull people quite firmly towards one or the other. Why this is the case, I cannot say). I have seen people beg off looking at these articles, content RfC's where there is scant or no participation, because nobody wants to come in with a comment or edit and get flamed – which they automatically will by one side or the other. If you allow yourself to become a victim of this same dynamic, you make it that much harder for future, truly neutral admins to come in and make all the kiddies play nicely.

However, if you insist on going forward with your pledge, I'd also suggest that you ignore any editors who have had a previous beef with you, as well as editors who can reasonably said to be friends with the editor who started this whole recall process. I trust you know who these people are (not sure I know all of them). This is not to say that those people are wrong, mind you, merely that being "uninvolved" is crucial here.

I hope this is all helpful. Feel free to respond publicly or privately, or not at all. I would guess you must be going through a lot of stress right now – I have no doubt you can weather it. IronDuke 01:01, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

• Very well put. I second it. Tundrabuggy (talk) 12:53, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
  • I wasn't going to comment, but agressively neutral admins, to the point of ignoring the content and consensus, are not needed. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 14:07, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
    • "Aggressively neutral" is an oxymoron.--Abd (talk) 01:47, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
      • It's a question of which policies she's neutral in favor of; ignoring the fact that some of the reverts she's claiming as violation of 0RR are reverts of WP:BLP violations, or reverts of clear reverts (also in violation of 0RR). — Arthur Rubin (talk) 03:01, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Elonka has no right to make this decision by herself

To recall has to be subject to the community. The community is not merely one side in this issue. It would be a wrong to the majority of editors if she agrees to step down simply because 6 editors can be found who would like to see her do that. It is not fair for the participants in this process to thwart the will of the community, and the will of the community is the majority view. It would not be fair of Elonka not to listen to the voices of the community, but listen instead to a minority view.

This is a community decision and it must be resolved by the community, not by some arbitrary number of people, half of which have an axe to grind. Nor can it be usurped by the individual-- Elonka cannot agree to this recall without at least having a majority of editors that agree to it.

IronDuke is absolutely right, that 6 editors can be got to dump virtually anyone, Jimmy Wales included. The recall process, if this is what it is, needs an overhaul, bigtime. The recall process must be uniform and apply to everyone equally. It should apply to all admins or to none. No tenure or grandfathering clauses. WP is not a dictatorship - it is not ruled by the Politburo. At the very least, every recall should be done with a majority. Under many circumstances in real life, a vote for recall requires a 2/3 majority, but always at least a majority. Elonka cannot hand a victory to minority of voices in this community by allowing herself to be recalled by a handful of individuals. That isn't what Wiki is supposed to be about. Tundrabuggy (talk) 03:49, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

As a note, I will oppose making recall mandatory. I'll also oppose imposition of a process I didn't agree to. My process is not gamable. I think maybe you haven't studied processes and past recalls closely enough yet. ++Lar: t/c 04:32, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

To be fair, it's a bit unfair to say that the recall system needs an overhaul when there isn't an actual process in place. EVula // talk // ☯ // 04:20, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Elonka failed to specify exactly what the process she will use, well in advance. When I look at the last few recalls that were bumpy, that's a common theme, Mercury didn't. Durova didn't. Bumpage. SirFozzie did. GRBerry did. Keilana did. No bumpage. I went round and reminded everyone in the category to please please please specify their process a few months back. And many did (see here). But some did not. That's not a failure of the idea, it's a failure in execution on their part. In my view the default process is gamable. My process is pretty tight I think, and not subject to gaming by random editors that don't like me. (I'll go farther than I've ever went before in making that claim, actually... if you think you can game the process with me... go ahead, give it a try. You won't get very far, I guarantee it.) But if you think the concept of voluntary recall is flawed, or needs changing, or whatever, bring it up on the talk page... Because this isn't the place. (note however that this is Elonka's second time round being called for recall. You'd think she would have learned from the first time and put a process in place. ++Lar: t/c 04:30, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Lar, a couple of corrections are necessary: I did specify the terms of my recall. What no one could reasonably have anticipated was that RFC would become obsolete in 12 hours when an arbitrator initiated RFAR. Then arbitration denied me fair opportunity to present evidence by proceeding to voting in under 24 hours with a motion to send me to an immediate mandatory RFA garnering unanimous support. After they ignored my requests for time to defend myself and continued voting, the only dignified and drama-reducing option left to me was resignation. The voluntary nature of the program you initiated has already been undermined by ArbCom itself. Durova 17:25, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Here you have a admin that voluntarily gets involved in contentious issues, and she can be recalled by a half dozen editors who have a gripe? How is that fair to her or to those who believe they have benefited from her involvement and her adminship? Esp a recall that is an outgrowth of an RfC that hasn't even been resolved? This recall should not even have been allowed to go forward while an RfC is in process. A recall is not supposed to be something that a handful of people with a gripe can do. As it stands so far, it sounds like a lot of non-democratic bureaucratic red tape to me. If we followed this process in the real world there would be no administrators at all. As for going to talk about it somewhere else, there is plenty on this page that ought to be somewhere else. A little more won't hurt. Tundrabuggy (talk) 12:51, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

This is not the place to criticize the concept. "I think maybe you haven't studied processes and past recalls closely enough yet" bears repeating. A recall PETITION is only the first step in the process that many admins use. ++Lar: t/c 15:18, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Elonka has not only the right but the responsibility to make this decision herself. She will wisely consider the opinions and views and analysis of other editors, but, in the end, it's her action and choice to resign or not, and if she makes the wrong decision, the community or ArbComm will correct her. I'd say that any decision that results in her desysopping would properly consider the behavior of other involved editors, and I think there might be more than one bit rolling around on the floor after such process, I'd not advise being eager to propose desysopping here. I'm claiming that, in deciding this, she should consider the welfare of the project first; hence the majority opinion shown so far that her actions were proper should weigh strongly in her decision I'd advise. Against that, she should balance the damage from an apparent promise not kept. However, given the poor design of administrative recall, I would suggest consideration, elsewhere, of a better means of temporary -- involuntary but not punitive -- recall pending review, I have some ideas about that. The problem with the existing recall/reRfA process is the severe hysteresis. --Abd (talk) 02:02, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Civility

I see. Ok. I took my time off :) --Rembaoud (talk) 15:59, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Are the recall criteria binding?

There is definitely an issue raised by the recall criteria. However, I do not see them as binding Elonka in this case, for two main reasons, which are separable.

1. When the recall criteria were accepted by Elonka, as she explains above -- and it is reasonable -- there was a restricted application: the dispute must involve an actual use of admin tools. It is not merely a general disagreement, or about other editing activities. Who decides what the disagreement is, if it isn't totally obvious? Was there an incident of the improper use of admin tools? There might have been, if, say, an editor had violated an improper ban on her part, but the ban itself does not involve the use of admin tools, so we have here a technical exception. And if we are going to firmly bind someone to a promise, the exact nature of the promise becomes important. The present situation was not anticipated in the promise, that's obvious, and administrative recall, under the naive terms originally used by Elonka and others, is seriously risky, damaging the ability of the community to deal with factions of mutual support that are larger than six editors (plus once there is some major flap, it would theoretically be possible to dredge up quite a bit more than six, as we see here.) Six editors, in the middle of a highly contentious and very visible RfC, AN/I reports, etc.... that's very small! Any administrator worth their salt has offended more than six editors "in good standing"!
2. However, suppose we consider the promise clear and that she promised to resign under the current conditions. Rule Number One remains in place. A promise is a kind of rule (i.e., there is a social rule, keep your promises). In my RfA, I was asked what the most important rule was, and I answered "Rule Number One," for which I took a lot of flack. However, Ignore All Rules remains rule number one, so what does that rule suggest here? The action of resignation or refraining from it is Elonka's decision, but I will assert that the welfare of the project suggests she abrogate the promise, explicitly, at least as it applies in a situation like this, and I will argue in detail elsewhere on this point. It says in the Qur'an that "God will not hold you to your foolish promises, do not let your foolish promises keep you from doing good." Perhaps I'm biased, but I'd say that is good advice.--Abd (talk) 01:45, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't see either of these arguments as sensible.

1. Although there is some dispute as to whether she has agreed only to questions of misuse of the admin tools (in her RfA) or any dispute with 6 editors "in good standing" (originally on this page), the application of 0RR and article restrictions and bans are clearly threats to use admin tools, and so should qualify. Or are you saying that admin who threatens to block someone for no apparent reason, and then convinces another admin to actually do the block, is not misusing the admin tools?
2. (I wrote a longer missive than yours, but an edit conflict deleted it). Suffice it to say that, if WP:IAR was policy, I would have blocked User:Elonka for misuse of 0RR on Quackwatch. She has become an involved editor by choosing which side to be "neutral" in favor of. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 02:55, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry about your missive, AR, use a browser that keeps the edit stuff when you go back. You seem to have created several oxymorons on this page, "neutral in favor of" is another. It is normal for a neutral decision, in effect, and as seen by the participants and others who are not neutral, to seem to favor one side. Plus, of course, there are errors, unconscious bias, and, then again, the problem we'd be most concerned about, a bias that should be recognized and which should properly lead an admin to disqualify himself or herself. WP:IAR is policy, and it is the foundation of policy, and I'm astonished that an administrator would not know that. If you actually believe that an admin should be blocked for a good-faith action, then, yes, you should have blocked her and we should, then, probably, have removed your sysop bit unless you managed to show that your action was reasonable. We remove the bit for two reasons: bad faith use, and incompetence. Absolutely, if you believe that the project would be best served by blocking Elonka, IAR requires you to do it. Of course, your decision will also consider how the community would respond, possible disruption, and all the rest, not just Elonka in isolation. I'm amazed at how much argument I get against WP:IAR, it's routine. --Abd (talk) 03:39, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

If she showed some indication that she believed that some of the arguments made here and at the RfC were made in good faith and require discussion, I'd vote for her in a new RfA. However, that has not yet happened. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 02:58, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

How about, then, reading her Response above. For your convenience, Arthur, here is an excerpt:

I encourage further discussion on this, especially at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Elonka. Personally, I still remain committed to being the best administrator that I can be, because I strongly believe in the Misplaced Pages project. I have no intention of misusing admin access, and seek only to help the project move forward in its process of creating high quality articles. However, if anyone still feels that I have genuinely misused admin tools, I encourage you to either bring up specific diffs here, post at the RfC, or to take the concerns to ArbCom. Thanks, Elonka 18:46, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I see no indication that she does not believe that "some of the arguments made ... were made in good faith and require discussion," and she specifically encourages discussion at the appropriate place, the RfC. So, given that WP:AGF would be policy if it were enforceable (it should be policy anyway, like IAR, which similarly is not enforceable), I'd say you are now required to assume the conditions that would make you vote for her in a new RfA, and if you believe that, surely it would involve less fuss for the community to simply keep her admin bit.

Here is the problem, though. !Votes are running in the RfC with the greatest count for Elonka's response being endorsed by 35. The next highest endorsements are for MastCell's rather neutral comment that simply asks Elonka to take certain things into consideration, and for MathSci's somewhat critical, somewhat favorable comment, both with 21 endorsements. Then comes Leifer, who clearly supported Elonka, with 20 endorsements. Sir Rubenstein's comment gathered the most endorsements of any truly critical comment, 18 votes. Then Shell Kinney supported the concept of admin neutrality, effectively supporting Elonka in this, with 17 endorsements. The truly critical comments, such as the original request itself, have low endorsements, with the complaint summary obtaining 10 endorsements. It's really close: if she resigns, it's possible that it could be difficult obtaining the 3/4 ratio required. Let me translate "difficult:" Disruptive, with lots of editors pouring in and more tendentious and increasingly uncivil argument. It seems clear to me that if a supermajority of editors (like 2/3) do not support desysopping, it shouldn't happen unless reasons are clear. There is currently a quite decent rough consensus that she did not abuse the tools, or the threat of usage of the tools, and supporting her actions with the articles in question. But clearly there is a substantial segment of the community that opposes her on overall policy (i.e., the philosophical grounds underlying how admins should act). Not a majority, but quite likely more than 1/4 of those sufficiently knowledgeable to have an opinion. And if that 1/4+ can prevail at RfA, they will have shown what a determined minority like that can do. There are very, very important policy decisions to be made here, and, I'd suggest, they should be made by ArbComm, or by other process supported by ArbComm, which I've seen hints is happening, rather than through a community process like an RfA. For now, Elonka has sufficient confidence from the community that I'd say she should continue, pending review by ArbComm -- if anyone takes it there.--Abd (talk) 04:15, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

That is a very good summary of the situation at the RfC, and I agree with the conclusion as well. 6SJ7 (talk) 04:25, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, I believe that Misplaced Pages would be best improved if she would step down from WP:WORKINGGROUP and from any "special enforcement" activity, and from any activity which requires determining WP:CONSENSUS. If desysoping is necessary for that, then that would be the appropriate action. She seems unable to distinguish between editors being a tag team and being a consensus opposed to her opinion. If she believes that "special enforcement" activities are required to prevent tag teams from taking over an article, she's made it clear she's willing to avoid having consensus take over the article, which is clearly bad for Misplaced Pages. As for WP:IAR being policy, it doesn't trump the first two WP:PILLARS, which is what her actions are doing. I suppose this RfC should be terminated as having brought up all the relevant data, and going directly to WP:RfAr, with the additional note that if Elonka is not restricted, we'll lose most of our subject experts in contraversial articles. Yes, WP:IAR suggests we should bring up the question of whether Elonka should be banned.

WP:IAR also suggests she should be temporarily desysopped immediately, but I'm not a WP:CRAT or a WP:STEWARD. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 06:52, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I assure you, trying to use WP:IAR in conjunction with a desysopping request would remind Sisyphus of his boulder. That's quite simply not what it's for (and, for what it's worth, any desysopping would be done by a steward). EVula // talk // ☯ // 06:57, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Trying to use WP:IAR in conjuction with any of this is not a good idea. But I wasn't the one to bring it up. Applying WP:IAR to justify the article restrictions which Elonka has imposed is also not a good idea. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 07:02, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

This discussion raises some substantive issues about policies at Misplaced Pages, but let us stick to the topic: Are the recall criteria binding? I agree fully with AR that the imposition of a 0RR is a threat to use admin. tools. Moreover, her unblocking of Jagz on 17:22, June 16, 2008 was a use of admin tools that demonstrated very very poor judgement - her mentoring of Jagz culminated his calling MastCell a "fucking asshole" - and I feel very strongly that we need to look at her use of admin tools such as unblocking someone who had been community banned in relation to her judgement which in this case was demonstrably very poor. But there is a bigger issue that concerns me, which is the relationship between administrator tools and administrator authority. In my field, authority is very much tied up with the threat to use or the claim to the legitimate monopoly on certain critical tools. I believe that as soon as Elonka intervenes in a conflict among editors not because she is just another well-intentioned editor, and not because she has been invited to act as mediator, but precisely because she is an administrator, we have an abuse of power. The principal complaints against Elonka center on her claiming authority over other editors because she is an administrator. The threat to use administrator tools is necessarily implicit in such a gesture. After all, what the heck is an administrator, if not an editor who has certain tools?

I have been involved in conflicts with others and I never mention that I am an administrator because I have no intention of using the tools at my disposal as administrator; thus my being an administrator is a non-issue.

But Elonka has gone out of her way to emphasize that people should do what she says because she is an administrator. As soon as she makes such a claim, she is bringing the sysop tools into play because the only important meaning of "I am an administrator" is "I have these tools I can use."

Thee is no need for me to provide additional edit-difs; these are matters of fact Elonka herself would agree to because she has made a point of emphasizing these things publically. I consider her using her posesion of these tools as a means for elevating herself above all other editors to be a betrayal of trust and an abuse of power. This is the issue. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:51, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

User subpage cleanup

Hi there. Sorry this isn't related to the huge kerfuffle going on above (I have no idea what all that's about, actually...). I just discovered this orphaned talkpage for a deleted user subpage of yours: User talk:Elonka/RfA ponderings. Is it serving any useful purpose? If not, it should probably be deleted as general cleanup. I will notify the only other contributor, User:Electrawn, of this as well, but I doubt that either of you have much reason to keep this two-year-old talkpage. Terraxos (talk) 02:07, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Gone, thanks.  :) --Elonka 03:22, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Admin tools vs admin authority?

I've been sitting out this recall bid so far, neither endorsing nor opposing. However, I'm uneasy about one point that Elonka mentions in her response above. She's intervened as an "uninvolved administrator" on a number of articles that are covered by several arbitration cases - Homeopathy, Balkans and Arab-Israeli conflict. She's blocked a number of editors - using her admin tools - though I haven't seen anyone on the RfC disputing her blocks. However, she's also used her admin authority - derived from her admin tools - to impose indefinite 0RRs and other editing conditions on a number of articles, as well as issuing editing bans backed up by the threat of blocks. It's in this regard, the use of her admin authority, that the RfC has questioned her judgment.

I'm not convinced that you can separate admin authority from admin tools, given that the former is dependent on the latter. Anyone can threaten punitive action, but only an admin can actually do it. The imposition of 0RRs, editing conditions and bans depends on one's ability to back up those measures with enforcement action. It's like pointing a gun at someone to make them take a particular course of action. You're not actually firing the gun, but you're using it to make your compulsion credible. If you're relying on your admin tools to back up an assertion of admin authority, that seems to me to be an implicit use of the tools. -- ChrisO (talk) 07:40, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually ChrisO, now that people have mentioned this sort of thing, it occurred to me - aren't the ArbCom sanctions written in such a way that they specifically note that only admins are supposed to create sanctions? Granted, I'm still not convinced recall is appropriate here, but I do think we're talking about something that's out of the realm of possibility for non-admins. One thing that still concerns me with this current process is that aside from a few comments made directly by Elonka, there seems to be a lot of assuming about what Elonka thinks or will do. I think good points and good questions are getting lost in the ocean of discussion because instead of waiting for Elonka to reply or comment, someone else stops by and answers things.

I was wondering if it might make sense to create a subpage (or subsection here) where people can ask questions and Elonka can answer - other editors could still discuss the questions or answers elsewhere. I think despite our best intentions, we're not going to get an accurate picture by using our best guess of what Elonka would do or say and I think it makes sense for her to be more involved in this process instead of just being commented about. Shell 11:01, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Totally agreed with Shell and Chris here. Let's make a subpage with all our questions, and let's just wait for Elonka to answer them. Sounds most reasonable to me.--Ramdrake (talk) 12:49, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I think this is an excellent idea. Would Ramdrake be willing to refactor? It seems to me that thee are a number of ways to organize people's concerns - around distinct cases/conflicts/articles, but also some have to do with how she interprets policy, some with hw she did or did not violate pledges when she was seeking adminship, some with how she deals with editors, wome with how she deals with fellow admins - there are a variety of ways to organize this material but it is a mess and definitely needs some kind of organization for anyone to follow it. I am one who wishes Elonka would provide cogent answers to some of the questions people has posed to her and reorganizing this into clearly identifiable topics woulod make it easier for her to do so - and make it easier for us to find the answers!! Slrubenstein | Talk 14:02, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

(Refactored; please see #Questions for Elonka below). -- ChrisO (talk) 20:23, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I have learned that there is a recall template that we may wish to use to do this. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:30, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

As a curiosity, and as an admin myself, I'm curious re "admin authority" - in my view, no such thing exists. I believe Elonka would have been acting, with regard to the 0RRs etc, as part of the task force set up by ArbCom on disputes of this kind. As an admin, I have no more and no less say than any other editor, and I'm certainly no more right. Orderinchaos 17:45, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

In many arbitration cases, and in some community sanctions, administrators are given special powers to enact editing restrictions or other remedies (such as 0RR). See Misplaced Pages:General sanctions and Misplaced Pages:Editing restrictions. The operative phrase is "Any uninvolved administrator may..." When there are special powers granted, available only to administrators, use of these powers is equivalent to hitting the "traditional" administrative buttons (delete, protect, block). Jehochman 17:50, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, what has happened in such cases is that the ArbCom has delegated its own authority to the admin community under the rubric of general (or sometimes discretionary) sanctions. The full list of sanctions is at WP:SANCTIONS. It's worth noting that the authority granted is quite broad but also fairly non-specific. There is, for instance, no endorsement of 0RR, only "restrictions on reverts". Elonka's own "editing conditions" (see e.g. Talk:Quackwatch#Conditions for editing) are, as far as I've been able to work out, something that she's come up with (perhaps as a result of the task force discussions?) which she has implemented by claiming authority under the ArbCom sanctions. They are not specifically endorsed or required by the ArbCom ruling. Another administrator might well have chosen to impose different conditions or - more likely - none at all, other than intervening sporadically to deal with particularly problematic behaviour. Personally, I find that a light touch works better than an authoritarian approach. WP:ARBPIA#Discretionary sanctions puts it well: "administrators should use their judgment and balance the need to assume good faith and avoid biting genuinely inexperienced editors, and the desire to allow responsible contributors maximum freedom to edit, with the need to reduce edit-warring and misuse of Misplaced Pages as a battleground, so as to create an acceptable collaborative editing environment even on our most contentious articles." The thing that has gone wrong in this particular case is that Elonka has not found an adequate balance between these poles. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:04, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Polish death camp controversy

As an Administrator who is from the Polish Wiki Project, you may be able to clarify if there was indeed a controversy over the use of the term 'Polish death camps' instead of Nazi death/extermination camps in Poland in WWII here: Polish death camp controversy There is an AfD discussion on it. Personally, I am sure there was a controversy but some editors think the word controversy is exaggerated. Artene50 (talk) 23:46, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

This can't be right

MartinPhi has just returned to editing but he has met with this:,

and this was added:

I'd like him to stay around but this doesn't encourage in anyway. How can this be fair? It looks like baiting to me, at the very least.

I have also notified Vassyana because he has been familiar with the situation, but he may not be around.(olive (talk) 00:41, 12 August 2008 (UTC))

Should this be added to something in progress. This is new ground for me.(olive (talk) 01:19, 12 August 2008 (UTC))/

Thanks. I've gone to SA's mentor. I don't often feel this kind of concern, but enough is enough.(olive (talk) 01:33, 12 August 2008 (UTC))

Misplaced Pages:Tag team

Rather than respond to the points made by Moreschi and MastCell, Elonka has posted this essay on Misplaced Pages. I could not find a reference to "lynch mobs" in the essay. Elonka shows no signs of any self doubt. Is she now trying to pass off her own offensive and misjudged behaviour as accepted wikipedia policy? Mathsci (talk) 06:20, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Great work , if its true. -Bharatveer (talk) 07:06, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm very uneasy about the section at Misplaced Pages:Tag team#Other identifying characteristics, which seems very self-serving. It currently states:

Tag-teamers may also use intimidation tactics towards administrators, to defend each other against admin actions. For example, when one teammember is blocked, other members may immediate attack the credibility of the blocking admin, and/or start threads at administrator boards to challenge it. Then even if the community backs up the admin's action, tag team members may continue to forum shop, challenging each of the admin's future actions.

Is Elonka implicitly stating that that's what's going on here? -- ChrisO (talk) 20:25, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

ChrisO, are you suggesting that it is not? Any merit to this "case" against Elonka is overshadowed by the hordes of 15-year-olds with personal agendas banding together to eliminate a common obstacle. — TAnthony 04:02, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

• Elonka, would you consider userfying this essay please? That is how such things are usually done. In this case, it is loosely based on a draft report that has not been widely discussed and has not yet been formally accepted, so a Misplaced Pages space essay seems quite premature. Risker (talk) 22:15, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Doesn't it say, in re WP essays, that they represent the views of one or more Wikipedians? That is by definiton the case here, unless Elonka disavows the essay herself; I see no reason to move it. IronDuke 22:23, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

This is an absolutely excellent essay, which I've been wanting to see for a long time. It is also representative of the sentiment of the community in general, in that gang editing, or tag team editing, is very much against the stated rules and spirit of the encyclopedia. It should stay in mainspace, and frankly I think it needs to be linked from WP:NPOV and WP:CONSENSUS. Tag team editing goes on across a huge range of articles, especially in political or ethnic ones. It's a major problem, and deserves a very prominent essay. How about making some prescriptions and upgrading it to a guideline? ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 22:35, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

My, how unsurprising... Shot info (talk) 22:55, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

almost as unsurprising as your objections... --Ludwigs2 23:22, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of a tag-team... Shot info (talk) 23:31, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

lol - actually, I'm just a firm believer that one good snark deserves another. all in good fun.  :-) --Ludwigs2 08:02, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Good point. Actually, I agree that tag-team editing falls under WP:MEAT, but the characteristics are — looking for a sufficiently strong word — WP:BOLLOCKS. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 23:40, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

It's an essay. What's the big deal? Isn't Elonka entitled to her opinion? 6SJ7 (talk) 03:18, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Sure, and I have no problem with her having an opinion, if she keeps it in her userspace. When it is in Misplaced Pages space, it is better to reflect a diversity of opinions. Well, the day is young. Risker (talk) 03:43, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

If you check Misplaced Pages:Working group on ethnic and cultural edit wars/2008 report, you'll see that the definition has been endorsed by 11 people. --Elonka 03:49, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I suppose there's nothing to stop an editor putting it up for AfD? Alun (talk) 07:06, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

There's the fact that it isn't an article. Deletion discussions involving material in Misplaced Pages space are held at WP:MFD. Risker (talk) 07:54, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Questions for Elonka

(I've taken the liberty of moving this to its own section, as Ramdrake's earlier post and the link are not very visible in the threaded discussion above. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:23, 12 August 2008 (UTC))

User_talk:Elonka/Questions. I've transcribed ChrisO's questions on the page (as they were the easiest questions to spot), and added one of my own. Refactoring other questions was a problem, as the signal-to-noise ratio of the discussion (relative to questions) was... rather high. My apologies. I would invite anyone wanting to add questions to do so, with two caveats:

1. Please remain civil at all times.
2. Please refrain from turning these questions into a discussion, or this will get as impossible to answer as the discussion above. Thanks!--Ramdrake (talk) 16:36, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Major concern with Elonka's judgement

On the linked page with questions, Elonka answers one of Aluns thusly: "No, I do not think that an administrator needs to be conversant with the topic matter, to intervene in a dispute." I think this gets at the heart of the problem. The principles at work should be very clear and common-sensicle: if the conflict is primarily one of personal behavior, Elonka is right that the mediator need not know anything about the content, just our personal behavior policies. But if the conflict is about content, there is no way any editor can help mediate a resolution without knowledge of the topic. This gets to the heart of our primary mission, to write encyclopedia articles i.e. articles based on research on substantive topics. If an admin cannot distinguish between these two types of comflicts - personal behavior versus conflict - then the inevitable result is Elonka's response to Alun. And her response to Alun effectively says that how editors talk to one another is more important than the contensts of the article. This is the beginning of the end of the whole project. Slrubenstein | Talk 03:33, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that's what she's saying at all. 6SJ7 (talk) 04:07, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I would be thrilled if I were misreading her, and would welcome clarification from her. I think it is essential that people involve themselves in content disputes, especially if they wish to mediate a conflict, by familiarizing themselves with the actual contents under dispute. This is not a matter of taking some side as to who is right or wront, but it is essential if a mediator is to recognize the difference between mainstram and fringe points of view, between reliable and unreliable sources, etc. Frankly, I feel that Elonka did not take the time to do this when she butted in in the Jagz community ban. I think her failing to have done so led to errors of judgment (in the end the community ban was supported so the result was a major inconvenience but no harm to the encyclopedia ... but in other circumstances realharm to the encyclopedia can occur). If Elonka agrees with me, then I have to admit I am puzzled by her behavior in the Jagz dispute but on the other hand would be reassured. clearly we need to trat personal behavior conflicts and content conflicts differently. But when E. wrote, "No, I do not think that an administrator needs to be conversant with the topic matter, to intervene in a dispute." it seemed she was ignoring the distinction between these different kinds of disputes and how they should be approached and handled. Elonka, did I misunderstand you? Slrubenstein | Talk 05:10, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't know whether you are misreading her or not, since I don't see the reference. But I can say (with great assuredness) that there is a difference between intervening in content and intervening in behavior. administrators take action against editors every day for poor behavior without regard to page content (everything from vandalism to 3rr blocking); there's no reason why they can't do the same within the context of a content dispute. you don't often need to know what two editors are talking about to know if one of them is engaging in crapulence. --Ludwigs2 08:07, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Then, maybe a possible solution would be that if an admin intervenes in a dispute without any knowledge of the content, maybe they should refrain from applying editing restrictions such as 0RR and just stick with checking for proper behaviour (CIVIL, NPA)? Just a thought here.--Ramdrake (talk) 11:30, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, if we perhaps take Gennarous vs. consensus at Rab concentration camp as an example of what you are discussing, I think the two things are a little difficult to separate. Gennarous was trying to put unsourced nonsense into the article in blatant violation of various core policies. Whether he did so civilly or politely is irrelevant in my view. The exasperated response of another editor, cautioned by Elonka here , may be seen as unsurprising under the circumstances. If, on the other hand, an admin arbitrating a dispute looks into the subject just a little, and identifies that a) one POV editor is putting nonsense into an article and b) is doing so without sources, then said admin is then in a fine position to tell the POV shark to stop, and no other editors will post incivil exasperated messages. Just a thought. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 11:51, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

You're absolutely right from this perspective. I was just writing from the perspective of the admin who doesn't want to look at the content dispute, even just a little. In this case, editing restrictions may do more harm than good.--Ramdrake (talk) 12:52, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Indeed you were. My apologies if I was unclear. My post was not a reply to you Ramdrake, more of a general one, since the conversation is about whether content matters and behavioural ones are separable and whether disputes can be arbitrated without knowing anything about the content. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 13:01, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

This is the whole concept of an "uninvolved" editor or administrator: one who doesn't take one side or the other in a content dispute. Some people on the RfC seem to be arguing that this type of neutrality in certain situations is not only unnecessary, but is not allowed. I disagree. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 13:25, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I sort of agree with you, but you have to balance uninvolved administrator with the idea that an editor can get upset because there is actually something wrong. Sanctioning the upset party without first checking why they are upset is not a good idea. See also don't overlook legal threats. Jehochman 13:30, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

An uninvolved editor is one who has no partiocular POV to promote. But this should be the stance of all editors, who are not supposed to put their own views into articles. Therefore, the idea of an editor enterning into a content dispute being "uninvolved" is silly. While no editor should put her own POV into an article, editors are supposed to be able to recognize notable POVs from reliable sources. And this is all I have called for: that an editor stepping into a dispute know wnough about the topic to be able to distinguish between notable and non-notable POVs, and between reliable and unreliable sources. This is not forcing an editor to take any side other than that of our core policies. But the idea that any editor can help resolve a dispute in ignorance of the difference between notable and non-notable views, and reliable and unreliable sources is either naive or makes a mockery of the whole project, which is to write an encyclopedia. I have seen others take this approach in the past and in some cases I think that it is out of shere laziness; they get to add edits to their beloved edit count without doing research. Now, settle down, my point is not to impugn people's character. My point is that something that superficially appears to be helpful can turn out to be anything but. This approach elevates some very puritanical notion of civility over research, hard work, and commitment to the encyclopedia. It elevates form over substance. Personal behavior policies are essential for dealing with trolls and vandals and POV pushers. But when good-faith editors are torn over how to develop an article telling them to be civil is not the solution to a conflict, it is just a distractionfrom the actual conflict which requires one - yes, this takes work - to look at the contents and our contents policies and work from them towards a solution to the conflict. This is pretty obvious to me. Fetishizing civil behavior as if this were the point of Misplaced Pages, rather than writing great encyclopedia articles, just puts the cart before the horse. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:40, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Let's say I go to the article about the moon, and change the first sentence to say it's made of cheese. I then add several paragraphs of meticulously-sourced scholarly material about cheese. An almighty edit war starts, and at the talk page I put a few beautifully-phrased and unimpeachibly civil posts defending my excellently-researched cheese-related material (skipping over the various complaints about the first sentence), and ignore the incensed flak coming my way. A somewhat "under informed" admin (an "uninvolved" editor or administrator: one who doesn't take one side or the other in a content dispute) on recent changes patrol happens upon our conflagration. Reviewing the talk page posts, he/she decides to arbitrate. He/she identifies a very polite and civil editor who is being called a "bloody cretin", "vandal" and worse by a screaming group of outraged editors. The "under informed" admin admonishes everyone to be as civil as me and to try to find a compromise position. Heaven help the encyclopedia if this is the road we wish to go down. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 14:08, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Hell is paved...with green cheese?--Ramdrake (talk) 14:15, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

See Straw man. The situation you describe is of course absurd. But, to quote GRBerry, "Admins are not idiots". Most admins would be able to tell that someone was using sources that had nothing to do with the core topic of the article. I've actually dealt with disputes like that, especially in the nationalist topic areas, where an editor would try to prove a point by using a source that had nothing to do with the article's exact topic (and sometimes wasn't even about the same century). In those cases, I have cautioned editors to stick to directly relevant (and reliable) sources. In extreme cases, where some editors are accusing other editors of misinterpreting sources, I have taken a look at the source myself if it's online, or asked for editors to provide actual quotes from source material into the Misplaced Pages footnotes, to assist with verification. This has also been necessary sometimes when dealing with language difficulties. For example, if a Hungarian editor adds information from a Hungarian-language source, and a Slovak editor complains and accuses the Hungarian of misinterpreting the source. In those cases I remind editors of WP:RSUE, and that they should include a quote from the Hungarian source, plus a translated English version of the quote so other editors can understand it. But that's pretty extreme, and a fairly rare situation (in my experience). Mainly I just advise disputing editors to be sure to include a good source with everything they add, and that usually de-escalates (most) disputes. See also Misplaced Pages:New admin school/Dealing with disputes#Focus what they're talking about. --Elonka 14:40, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Maybe the example was a bit too obvious. But replace the "green cheese" and "non-green cheese" factions with something a bit less obvious like the "anthropogenic global warning is happening" faction with the "climate change denial" faction: on both sides you find sources that look at least superficially reliable, you'll even find peer-reviewed papers and organizations on both sides with scientific-sounding names. This is a patently less obvious situation. How do you tell which faction is in fact supporting the mainstream position and which faction is pushing a fringe POV?--Ramdrake (talk) 15:33, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Heh, I actually recall one dispute where I was drawn to a page because of a flame war between two editors who were arguing about something to do with chemical symbol nomenclature. I read that article several times and still couldn't figure out what they were talking about, but they were obviously upset about it! My techniques there were pretty much the same as other places: I encouraged them to stay civil, to base arguments on sources, and to follow other steps in dispute resolution, such as to request comments from other editors, or try mediation. As I recall, in that particular situation a third opinion was what resolved the matter, something along the lines of, "Yes, the nomenclature is changing but it's not industry standard yet, let's wait until more sources use the new system." And even then I still didn't entirely understand what they were talking about, but at least they weren't edit-warring about it anymore.  ;) So since they appeared to have found a consensus, and were once again working together in a collegial manner, I moved on to other articles. In short: If an article is stable, meaning that the editors who are working on it are happy with it, then it's (usually) not the admin's job to make a decision on whether or not it's neutral. We assume good faith and move on. There's always plenty to do. Heck, in the Navigation box on the lefthand side of the browser, just click on Random article a few times, and there's usually an article needing help within 5 clicks. --Elonka 15:56, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I guess they want admins on their side, or on the other side, whatever this means. They simply can not understand that anything can be judged by not siding with anyone. Therefore they cant deal with you.

Neutrality =/= equal-equal % of A & B & other. Thats the recipe for instant POV. --Rembaoud (talk) 20:13, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I think we cannot in fact take Elonka's word for how she acts. After all, before she became an administrator, she completely misrepresented the way she would function. Let's take as an example the incidents that followed my own edits to Richard Lynn, where I added two carefully prepared accounts from JSTOR of a non-notable book mentioned in the article. An administrator who read these accounts would without too much difficulty see that the book provided a reasonable source of data not previously available in one source, but beyond that was not regarded as a great addition to the literature: one reviewer was enthusiastic in speculating where the ideas might lead (Hamilton), other were luke warm, while one raised doubts about the scientific methods (Mckintosh). Now when a fork article with little or no encyclopedic content was subsequently created and was then unsurprisingly merged - because it did not even contain an account of reviews and a separate article could not be justified - Elonka appeared a few days after the merge as the guardian angel of Zero g (now inactive) and proceeded with little or no background knowledge of the subject to POV push on his behalf. This was outrageous behaviour on her part and shows that little or no credence can be given to her claims above. She was being more disruptive than the POV-pusher on whose behalf she edited. What Elonka says she does and what she actually does seem to be two separate things. I do not agree with her own confidence in her own judgement or her assertion that "administrators are not idiots". Administrators can make serious mistakes. Usually they own up to them when other administrators take them to task for it. This is not the case with Elonka. She has gone out of her way to push her maverick conspiracy theories, which fortunately very few administrators indulge in. If they did, wikipedia would be a chaotic anti-intellectual borstal. It is Elonka's lack of self doubt that makes her unsuitable as an administrator. It is foolhardy not to listen to other administrators like MastCell, Moreschi and Slrubenstein. Her preoccupation with minor matters of civility over major content issues is a further indication of her unsuitability. Mathsci (talk) 21:43, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

LOL, given how Elonka is flexible with her word about her recall conditions, why should be assume her words on "admins are not idiots" are correct? Last time I looked, admins were human. Humans make mistakes. One of Elonka's problems with the Community is, she doesn't admit to mistakes and hence, doesn't learn from mistakes. Shot info (talk) 22:29, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

In reply to Srubenstein: you're answering as if I was talking about points of view about the subject matter of an article (POV(sm)), when I was talking about points of view about which version of an article is better, i.e. points of view in an editing dispute (POV(ed)). I've seen the phrase "uninvolved administrator" (or sometimes perhaps "uninvolved editor") often used, and I support the continued use of these concepts on Misplaced Pages. To change that would require a broad community discussion, not just criticism of one administrator using the conventional system. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 23:21, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Coppertwig, by its very nature in a content dispute two different versions of the text express two different views of the subject matter. My comments have to do with content disputes. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:05, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Elonka, you say above that the example I gave about the moon is absurd. Go and check it again. All I was doing was describing the situation we faced at Rab concentration camp, and you were the well meaning "under informed" admin. I just changed the scenario. Except that you didn't happen upon the conflagration at recent changes patrol. You came because Gennarous called you. Gennarous was doing exactly what I described to the first sentence, without a source in sight. He was saying, without sources, it was a POW camp. It was nothing of the kind. A ridiculous assertion, obvious to anyone who checks a source or two. He was then adding sourced material attacking the Yugoslav Partisans, which was entirely irrelevant to the article. Just like the stuff about cheese in the scenario I described above. Your response was not at all as you set it out above. You did the opposite. You repeatedly told everyone else to compromise with Gennarous, without bothering to check a single source. Go and check the diffs as I set them out at the talk page of your RFC and then come back here and reply to this post. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 21:20, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Srubenstein, I don't understand. You said, "An uninvolved editor is one who has no partiocular POV to promote. But this should be the stance of all editors, ..." Since you say you're talking about content disputes, does this mean you believe that an editor shouldn't prefer one version of an article over another? I'm sorry: I'm just not following what you're trying to say. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 02:27, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I am saying that all editors should use the same criteria in deciding one version over another: our core content policies, especially NPOV. This requires an editor to distinguish between mainstream and fringe views, and reliable and non-reliable sources. Editors enter into content disputes when they disagre over how to apply these principles, or when some editors have done more research than others. But the only way to collaborate and compromise is by applying these principles. And if another editor wants to help mediate a dispute over conflict, they need to follow the same principles themselves - they need to know or learn the difference between mainstream and fringe views and notable versus unnotable sources. There are some cases where editors accept these principles and do research and in conflicts become incivil and in these cases it can be helpful to remind people to be civil. But in the case i am most familiar with, Jagz, the problem was not incivility although Elonka kept claiming it was. The problem was a troll who was pushing a racist POV; this person had no regard for NPOV or RS. In my questions for Elonka I asked her what to do when WP:DNFTT doesn't work and she said that the person ultimately has to be blocked or banned. Such actions are not in vilation of CIVIL; they are required to remove a disruptive editor. Well, that is precisely what happened to jagz - and then Elonka unblocked him claiming he was a victim of incivility. She was literally careless about the contents of the article and would not take the time to learn about the differences between fringe and mainstream points of view, or reliable and unreliable sources. If she had taken this responsibility seriously maybe she could have helped improve the article. But she wouldn't do this. And in a conflict over content, favoring one editor means favoring that editor's version. In short, there is no way to know if the conflict can be resolved by asking people to be civil until one knows the nature of the conflict. If it is a conflict over content that has been going on for a cople of days in my experience incivility is often the cause. But when a conflict has been going on for a year, in my experience it has to do with a violation of content, not behavior, policies. In these cases one just has to know enough about the contents to be able to understand and thus be able to intervine in the conflict. Slrubenstein | Talk 02:42, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with these particular situations, but what you say in the above comment makes sense. I still disagree with your earlier comment, however, where you said "Therefore, the idea of an editor enterning into a content dispute being "uninvolved" is silly." When I was helping on the 3RR noticeboard, I was careful to remain neutral in content disputes in many of the situations, although other situations required recognizing vandalism, BLP violations etc.; I still think such remaining neutral is a good thing to do. If one version of the article clearly satisfies policy better than another version, there will generally be enough other editors who recognize that that the article will attain the preferable state if rules such as 3RR are enforced to prevent one editor from dominating. In cases where I involved myself in editing the articles, I refrained from certain roles on the 3RR noticeboard which I deemed to require neutrality (meaning neutrality between POV(ed)s). ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 02:59, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, I am glad we are talking this through because i admitI am struggling to articulate myself clearly. I agree with you 100% that there are situations where a mediator should be neutral with regard to editors, and where the problem is civility, especially as you say when the problem is vandalism and BLP. You make important points. That said, I still believe I am basically right that there are content disputes where such "neutrality" is impossible or undesirable. I think I am trying to say two things. First, i think that even when a mediator is neutral as to WHO she supports, a mediator cannot be neutral about content: content that is encyclopedic and compliant with NPOV, V, and NOR is good; content that is not is bad. The second thing has specificly to do with Elonka who claimed to be neutral but in fact was taking one editor's side (Jagz) and by taking his side, she was implicitly supporting his views. Ultimately, I continue to believe, it is not about taking a person's side, but rather knowing enough about the content to tell the difference betwn a fringe view and a mainstram view, and a reliable and unreliable source when these are at the heart of the dispute. Coppertwig, I think in the end it is a judgment call and instead of a strict rule we need some common sense and perhaps focus on the process. I realize it can be dificult for someone new to the situation to tell the difference between conflicts that have heir origi8ns in violations of personal behavior policies, and other conflicts that have their origins in conflicts oer content policies. I gues i just think our old rule, that all participants in a dispute should agre to mediation, is absolutely key because each participant can then provide their account of the conflict which the mediator must then consider. The problem hee is that Elonka neve did this: she was not invited in o mediate by all paricipants of the dispute; she did not seek all views of the conflict and instead imperiously made her own judgement without investigaing the matter at hand, and took the side of one person, Jagz.Maybe if we just insisted that mediators follow those old rules (everyone must agree, mediator takes into account the actual different views of the conflict) we could solve this problem.Slrubenstein | Talk 05:10, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Reconciliation

I have said everything I felt the need to say, and personally, I consider this recall proposal resolved. Even though the result is not what I requested, I accept it and am hopeful that feedback provided by various parties will be taken on board. I encourage all the other editors here to get back to writing articles and not to nurse grudges. Jehochman 16:59, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I think that suggestion is extraordinarily sensible, and heartily concur. IronDuke 17:37, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Good move, Jehochman. Would it be too much to hope that the person who filed the pending RfC might do the same thing? 6SJ7 (talk) 17:52, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid I don't fully agree. I see little evidence that Elonka has accepted the fact that her actions could be rationally perceived as being, in at least one case, a clear violation of WP:CONSENSUS, and that her implementation of 0RR could be rationally perceived as supporting WP:CIVILility against content. If I saw that, I'd agree. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 17:58, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

• Codifying her exact recall parameters or removing herself from the AOR category would be a good move. –xeno (talk) 18:02, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

To 6SJ7: I believe the RfC contains some good observations and advice. I don't see a good reason to do away with it, quite the contrary.--Ramdrake (talk) 19:55, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Couple points. @ Arthur Rubin. So if Elonka is able to say, "Yes, I see how reasonable people might arrive at those conclusions, though I disagree," that would be good with you? @ Xenocidic. I think that's a pretty good idea, too. @ 6S7J: is there some other RfC I don't know about? IronDuke 21:05, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

No IronDuke, I was referring to the RfC that you already commented in, as distinct from the request for recall on this page. 6SJ7 (talk) 00:40, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Odwalla

Hey, I can understand you're busy (right now I feel like the little old lady whose cat is stuck in a tree while superman saves the world), but, if you could possibly spare a wikimoment, could you look over Odwalla and contribute to its peer review. I saw your name on WP:F&D, for which you wrote that you were working on nutritional supplement info. Thanks. :) Intothewoods29 (talk) 22:14, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Barnstar

		The Barnstar of Peace
		For constructive critcism of me, and for resolving a dispute at Law of Palestine. Bearian'sBooties (talk) 01:50, 17 August 2008 (UTC)