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Palestine Start‑class High‑importance

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Amoruso, please desist from inserting POV language. If you characterize the actions of the demonstrators as "violent", you need to source that, as I explained in earlier edit titles. It is not as widespread an opinion as you make it out to be. I don't share that opinion, nor do the other 20% of population who are citizens of Israel of Palestinian origin, like myself. Also, if you apply that description to the actions of the demonstrators, without characterizing the Israeli security forces response as "violent", the POV insertion becomes even more grave. Killing people is certainly more "violent" than throwing molotov cocktails, blocking roads, and throwing stones. I am also going to qualify the sentence to say "some demonstrators" since not every demonstrator killed, wounded by gunshots and jailed by Israeli security forces were engaged in "violent" behaviour and it is repeatedly mentioned that they were "unarmed". Tiamut 21:41, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I reverted you edit Isairg. Please discuss the issue here before changing it again. Thanks. Tiamut 00:08, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but that's just your pov. There's no question that there was an "intifada" that day I remember the day quite well and the history can't be changed. Amoruso 00:17, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Really? Just my POV. See this link . Note that this is an Israeli newspaper and it reports that: "Land Day is also a commemoration of the bloody confrontations with state security forces that took place on this day in 1976. Six unarmed Arab citizens were killed and some 100 injured, when they protested the confiscation of thousands of dunams of their land by the government." Notice the term, "unarmed". Further, it says that:

"Land Day demonstrations go back to events thirty years ago today when the Israeli government took a decision to confiscate 20,000 dunams of farmland belonging to Arab Israeli citizens. The land was said to be used for "security purposes," but was actually used to build new Jewish settlements and also a military training camp. The decision, taken in March 1976, included a curfew imposed on the villages of Sakhnin, Arabeh, Der-Hannah, Turhan, Tamra, and Kabul - all in the lower Galilee - which was to be effective from 5 p.m. on March 29, 1976. The next morning, the Arab citizens organized a general strike as wells as marches through the Arab towns, from the Galilee to the Negev. The government sent in the army and police with tanks and heavy artillery who shot and killed six unarmed citizens. Dozens more were wounded." Unforunately Amoruso, your recollection of events does not constitute WP:RS. Until you can provide with an English language source that contradicts this very credible version from the Jerusalem Post, I am removing the word "violent" and the reference to "riots" and removing any such references from the Arab citizens of Israel article as well. I also ask that you provide an English source that mentions molotov cocktails, road blocks and stone throwing, since this one does not. Further, I will be incorporating this new information into the body of the article, so I ask that you be patient as I edit. Thanks. Tiamut 01:59, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Isarig, the two sources you provided do not back the assertion about riots. The first, www.palestinefacts.org, is a notorious right-wing pro-Israeli advocacy group and it does not mention molotov cocktails, stone throwing or the blocking of roads. It does mention that the media overwehlemingly protrays Land Day as a peaceful demonstration. In other words, it sems to be a minority viewpoint and I don't think the source passes WP:RS. The second source is the New York Times but it refers to Land Day demonstrations in the 1990s and so is not relevant the sentence you placed it after. I am going to revert your edits. Pelase find appropriate and relevant sources. If you insist on including the palestinefacts source, please preface the remarks with "pro-Israeli advovacy group" Thanks. 15:22, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I decided not to revert for now so as not to break 3RR and also give you a chance to find more appropriate refs. I removed the nytimes ref (not relevant to 1976 events) and the palestinefacts ref, which is not a reliable source. I placed a citation needed notation and would appreciate a translation of the relevant sections in the msn.co.il article that prove the molotov cocktail, stone throwing and road blocking allegations. Also, please provide English title for that article for references section. Thanks. Tiamut 18:12, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

You need to start reading more carefully. The NYT article states "Land Day commemorates the killing of six Arabs by the police in 1976 after riots in the Galilee region in protest over Israeli expropriation of Arab land. ". You are welcome to your personal POV that Palestine Facts is "notrious", but please keep that POV out of the article, and don't confuse partisanship with reliability. I have not called your sources, many of which are explictly pro-Palestinian, "unreliable" - please extend me and other WP editors the same courtesy. The violence and road blocking reference is supported by the Hebrew msn reference, which I am sure you do not dispute. I am sure you are more than capable of reading the Hebrew text, but on the off chance that you can't, a quick translation of the relevant passage is "The demonstartions in the Galilee villages began peacefully, but quickly degraded into violence and road blocking". The view that the riots were violent is not a minority view at all, and there is no need to preface such claims as coming from pro-Israeli sources. Isarig 19:04, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about that Isarig. I missed that one sentence in the NYT article characterizing 1976 events as riots. I think it's a weak source since that's not the focus of the article, but I won't push it for now. Regarding the palestinefacts source, I won't accept that as a NPOV source for the events of Land Day. They are an anti-Palestinian, pro-Israeli lobby group.. You can challenge my sources too if you like, but notice that I mostly use Palestinian srouces to explain why Land Day is relevant to Palestinians. I don't see what other sources would do for that. I ask that if you do remove a source before explaining you objection to it, that you place a note there so that I can find another source, of which there are many. Thanks. Tiamut 20:44, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Molotov cocktails

Does anyone has a source for this particluar claim? Histolo2 11:38, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

NPOV

Article seems to neglect mention of violence during March 29-30 "protests" (it's also called riots sometimes) and also a background description of recent minor event in 1973 called "Yom Kippur War" where 10,000 Israelis were either injured or killed. Until these initial issues are dealt with, then the article should remain with the POV tag. Jaakobou 09:18, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Proccess notes

• Ref: <ref name=King>{{cite web|title=Land, Identity and the Limits of Resistance in the Galilee|author=Laurie King-Irani|publisher=Middle East Report Online|date=Fall 2006, Issue no. 216|accessdate=2006-11-01|url=http://www.merip.org/mer/mer216/216_king-irani.html}}</ref>

Please provide a source that makes a link between the Yom Kippur war and the events of Land Day. If there is no such source, the link is WP:OR and not the basis for a a neutrality tag to be placed here. Please also provide a source which details the "violence" of which you speak. The killing of six citizens is pretty "violent" and its mentioned without using that adjective. If there is no source detailing the "violence" of protestors, the neturality tag should be removed, since there is no way to address the concerns you are raising. Tiamut 17:07, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Removed intro

The following is an intro section removed in this diff in order to allow reformatting of the article into a neutral and encyclopedic version. Information wich is missing from the body will be readmitted asap. Jaakobou 16:49, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Land Day (Template:Lang-ar, Yom al-Ard; Template:Lang-he, Yom Ha'adama), March 30, commemorates the killing of six Arab citizens of Israel on that date in 1976 by the state security forces during protests over Israeli expropriations of land in the Galilee, with approximately 31 percent of them being Arab-owned.

The most prominent Arab-Israeli political party, Rakah (He: Template:Hebrew, lit. New Communist List), organized a general strike and marches in Arab towns from the Galilee, the Triangle region and the Negev in response to the government's announcement of a plan that would confiscate thousands of dunums of land in Arab areas. The government sent in the Israeli army and police with tanks and heavy artillery. In the ensuing confrontations, six Arab citizens were killed and hundreds of others were jailed and wounded.

Since then, Land Day has become an annual day of commemoration and demonstrations, held not only by Arab citizens of Israel, but by Palestinians all over the world.

Work version

The following is a mid-work version meant to sift out material which is currently in the article with material which might have been removed and should be in the article. Jaakobou 17:06, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

• on that date in 1976 by the state security forces during protests over Israeli expropriations of land in the Galilee, with approximately 31 percent of them being Arab-owned. added. Jaakobou 16:35, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

• The most prominent Arab-Israeli political party, Rakah (He: Template:Hebrew, lit. New Communist List), organized a general strike and marches in Arab towns from the Galilee, the Triangle region and the Negev in response to the government's announcement of a plan that would confiscate thousands of dunums of land in Arab areas.

• The government sent in the Israeli army and police with tanks and heavy artillery. In the ensuing confrontations, six Arab citizens were killed and hundreds of others were jailed and wounded.

• Since then, Land Day has become an annual day of commemoration and demonstrations, held not only by Arab citizens of Israel, but by Palestinians all over the world.

To be added to criticism

• The law was used to confiscate the lands of Arab citizens of Israel who "are present inside the state, yet classified in law as 'absent'." Today, there are an estimated 200,000 "present-absentees" or internally displaced Palestinians from among the estimated 1.2 million Arab citizens of Israel, representing over 16% of the Palestinian Arab population in Israel.
• Overall, more than a 1000 square kilometres of land were expropriated from Arab citizens of Israel alone between 1948 and 2003.

Comments on the ongoing revisions

Hi Jaakobou, it's always good for me to see an editor making good use of the Talk page to explain their edits, esp if when extensive. Perhaps you're doing this already, so just want to say it'll help if your make revisions to one section at a time, thereby facilitating discussion and editing responses. As noted on your Talk, PR raised some concerns about your revisions at my Talk page. (I've barely glanced at either his comments or your revisions, I'm just relaying.) You might want to consider his comments, respond here, and/or modify your ongoing revisions as appropriate. Thanks. HG | Talk 18:51, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

The article quality has been degraded as a result of Jaakobou's additions. NPOV means presenting all POVs equally. It does not mean creating a separate (apartheid) section in which to place "Arab views" while giving Israeli writers viewpoints authoritative airs by placing their statements as facts. It also does not mean that we have to imagine reasons for Israel's expropriation plans as being related to the Yom Kipppur war, nor do we have to list the number of Israeli dead from that war before mentioning these expropriation plans (what is the relevance? which source is making this claim?) I have restored much of the factual, relevant material deleted by Jaakobou and removed and placed the stuff about the Yom Kippur war below for discussion (if there is a source making the link between it and Land Day, please point it out to me and we can discuss how to reinclude it). Tiamut 17:01, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Background section

I have no idea whether the background section has always been as it is now, or is the result of recent revisions. However, just popping by, and never having visited this page before, I must say its organization makes very little sense at present. We have plenty of other articles dealing with the 1948 War, and I don;t see why it should get more than a wikilink here. What this article is about is a 1976 event, and the commemorations following. If there is any background, it should deal exclusively with land disputes surrounding Land Day and the general phenomenon of land expropriation which it symbolizes. LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 21:52, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

The 1948 War resulted in the Jewish exodus, a reason the Israeli government needed to utilize emergency ordinances, formulating definitions for dealing with lands of the absentee Palestinian-Arabs who have now become refugees themselves. Is there a need for a different phrasing to clarify this issue? Jaakobou 22:45, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with LamaLoLesh about unnecessary allusions to wars in this article. I have removed this material:

Several more wars occurred between Israel and its Arab neighbours in the following years until on October 1973, Syria and Egypt staged, along with Iraq and the Arab coalition, a surprise attack on Israel on the the Jewish day of atonement, Yom Kippur. At first, the Arab forces overwhelmed the Israeli forces (IDF) situated on the Suez Canal and the Golan Heights but later the IDF turned the tide and, eventually, a cease-fire was secured in the backdrop of US–Soviet counter threats to become directly involved.

The heavy costs of the war to Israel -- who had suffered 2656 deaths and 7250 injured -- were a catalyst for the government's decision to strengthen its presence close to the Golan Heights, which borders Syria, and to that purpose a Galilee Development Plan was decided upon.

I don't see which source cited refers to the war's as the reason for the expropriation plans and don't see the relevance to this article. I have also erased the "Arab view" section and placed the opinions of Ori Nir, Orly Halpern and Nawef Hawatmeh on par with one another rather than making the views of Israeli writers authoritative and that of the Arabs merely opinion-based.

I would also like to restore the previous introduction, since this one omits mention of Land Day's signifance as a commemorative day and fails WP:LEAD which should provide a summary for the article as a whole. Tiamut 16:34, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Recent changes

Hi Tiamut, We sure come at this from different perspectives. If I understand yours, it's about the 'Nakba' and the Palestinian refugees and the land expropriations and the protests. These things don't exist in a vacuum, though. 900,000 Jewish refugees from Arab land were a serious catalyst for the laws on using the lands of the absentee Palestinian-Arabs. The 1973 war was a serious catalyst for the Galilee Development Plan of 1975. This content is quite relevant for a person who wants to understand why Israel is doing an act that harms the Palestinians.

• Working through your edits I saw the following issues:
  • - Removal of the balance note about the Jewish refugees and extra emphasis on the "purpose and honor" Nakba narrative. This edit is in clear violation of WP:NPOV.
  • - hyperbolic language to how many people's lands were taken and citing it as the law's alleged purpose -- WP:OR/WP:NPOV -- (per "The law was used to confiscate lands belonging to the over 750,000 Palestinian refugees"). The law's purpose was to alleviate the pressure of the Jewish refugees, including the 600,000 who chose to come to Israel from Arab territory who's lands were stolen as well.
  • - removal of the reason for Israel's "plans to expropriate lands in the Galilee" - WP:NPOV. I also don't understand to why you would change the percentage issue to a reporter's claim when it's a fairly clear historical fact.
  • - since when is Land day just about the events of 1976? This edit is a clear error and misunderstanding of the event which is a yearly protest against discrimination in general and in the area of land in particular. The events of '76 are just part of the mythos. There's another problem with the hyperbole phrasing and narrative voice.
  • - I felt the map was very good to illustrate the creation of the problem - both Land without ownership and refugees on both sides. I'm willing to reconsider this addition, but the other edits completely circumvent the reasoning for why things occurred - they don't occur in a vacuum and the encyclopedia needs to list them down.
  • - (A) The "30 years" poster could possibly belong in the Legacy or a future "current events" section and not in the lead due to it's propagandist "flower bleeding on the earth" nature. (B) Much more importantly, to place it to illustrate Land Day is a violation of Misplaced Pages's non-free media use policy.

Anyways, I don't mind discussing your concerns about the article and finding compromises and also using community input where needed, but please avoid mass edits like this in the future and discuss them first.
With respect, Jaakobou 17:53, 30 August 2008 (UTC) clarify. 17:54, 30 August 2008 (UTC) Better. 18:38, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Jaakobou.

• Please do not use my name in sub-headings. It goes against the counsel in WP:TALK and I beleive we have discussed it (and your undue emphasis on my actions and edits) before.
• Please also refrain from characterizing my changes as a "mass edit" when in fact this is an article I have invested considerable time in contributing to, and it is you that came by a few days ago, starting to change what was a longstanding version of the article to your liking.
• Please also provide a source that ties the events of the Yom Kippur war to the events of Land Day. I asked you for one above, but you have pointed out where I can find this information in the refs you provided.
• Please also provide a ref which links the needs of Jewish refugees and the Jewish exodus from Arab lands to the events of Land Day. You cannot make WP:OR links of this kind on your own.
• And finally, remember it is you that made a "mass edit" removing much well0-sourced information and adding a bunch of what appears to be OR links to issues not related to Land Day to this article and I who am challenging your "mass edit" to this article and not the other way around. It is upon you to justify your recent changes by providing sources that make the links you have made therein. So please refrain from mass reverting to your preferred new version without gaining consensus first. Thanks. Tiamut 18:49, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Just trying to come to this with a level head, folks — firstly, please remember that no-one owns this article, irrespective of how much you've invested into it. I don't think anyone calling anything a "mass edit" is (a) meaningful or (b) constructive, so perhaps it might be best to drop that term.

I think that it would be best to discuss carefully your content changes, ideally before making them. That applies to everyone equally (-: Remember it is for the person making an edit to provide a citation for what they add.

The poster currently fails WP:NFCC#10c, at least, and I have tagged it as such. If it is not brought in line with the criteria within 48 hours it will be deleted.

Finally, I hope it won't be necessary, but it's necessary that this reverting be replaced with discussion (and please stop trying to have the last word or claim that the other started it, we're not in grade school), failing which blocks for edit warring or page protection are on the cards.

Play nice (-: Stifle (talk) 19:05, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I think I agree with Jaakobou on the fair use issue, mind you. The images don't have a rationale (which is enough to delete them on its own) and probably fail NFCC#8 in that they don't add to readers' understanding of the article. Stifle (talk) 19:23, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

1. ^ Orly Halpern (March 30, 2006). "Israel's Arabs to Mark Land Day". The Jerusalem Post, English Online Edition. Retrieved 2006-11-01.
2. ^ Demythologizing Land Day by Jerusalem Post
   On March 11, 1976, the Israeli government published a plan to expropriate approximately 21,000 dunams (5,250 acres) of land in the Galilee. As Ori Nir of Ha'aretz has pointed out, only 31 percent of the land in question, or less than one-third, was Arab-owned, some of which was to be used to expand the Arab village of Majar near Acre and to build public buildings in Arab towns.
3. ^ "Remembering Land Day". BBC News. March 30, 2001. Retrieved 2006-11-01.
4. ^ Nayef Hawatmeh (7-13 April 2005, Issue No. 737). "Remembering Land Day". Al-Ahram Weekly Online. Retrieved 2006-11-01. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
5. Uri Davis. "A Democratic State for all of its Citizens and Refugees". MidEast Journal 2001, Original Abridged version in Ha'aretz, June 25, 2001.
6. "Israel: The Yom Kippur War". Encyclopedia Britannica. Retrieved 2007-03-03.
7. "Arab-Israeli War of 1973-74". Encarta Encyclopedia. Retrieved 2007-03-04.
8. Simon Dunstan. "The Yom Kippur War: The Arab-Israeli War of 1973". Osprey Publishing. Retrieved 2008-08-29. pg. 117, ISBN 9781846032882

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