Old discussions or meta discussions

I beat you all to it:

OMG you protected The Wrong Version! Hipocrite - «Talk» 21:05, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Protected

...please work out content disputes here on the talk page. · Katefan0 21:13, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

clean slate

Good call, Hip. Obviously there are still valid discussions going on, so lets just reiterate some of our concerns here while trying to be civil. A note to BigDaddy, before you continue to "quote" Jimbo Wales, keep in mind the Reuters article you cite doesn't quote Wales as saying "impartial sources", those are the writer's words. I believe we can trust Misplaced Pages explicit policies over the interpretations of someone who doesn't even use Misplaced Pages. --kizzle 21:15, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

By the way, if I could request that people who want to discuss certain passages here use this as a template, you don't have to but it makes things a helluva lot easier when this page gets cluttered up:

Also to BD: There is no such thing as a supervisor here. There are mediators and RFC's, but no supervisors. "Quotes" by Jimbo Wales are not necessarily policy, for official policies look at Misplaced Pages:Policies and guidelines. Derex 21:23, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

I think the first thing is to remove those who INSIST on making personal attacks after being warned. Paul Klenk WARNED Ryan that calling my reasoned changes 'vandalism' was a personal attack, yet Ryan has done so since that warning two more times. He has also BLAMED ME PERSONALLY for this article being blocked from editing --"You have succeeded in driving this article single-handedly into an 'NPOV' tag and now, page protection - in short, you are disrupting Misplaced Pages"-- This is not only a personal attack, it's ridiculous since I didn't do the block, don't know how to do a black and was still trying to edit some pieces when the block was instituted. Bottom Line: We can't work on this cooperatively when obvious violations of the 'no personal attacks' rules are tolerated without consequence.

Quite simply, for the umpteenth time, it's not a personal attack. Your behavior here, on an article that has been relatively civil, has set the tone here... and your deletion without valid reason, followed by your revert warring to preserve your unjustified deletion from rightful reversion (which is one of the definitions of vandalism) caused the block. Will you take responsibility for your actions? -- RyanFreisling @ 22:04, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Secondly, we need to find out what Jimmy Wales meant when he said the articles should be supported with IMPARTIAL sources or if he really said that at all. This is a key issue for getting to the heart of what is and is not acceptable. In addition, I propose that every section that slams Karl Rove be balanced by some praiseworthy note of accomplishment. I can provide just as many positive facts as can his detractors provide negative, as they've so ably demonstrated their ability to do and fight anyone who dares question their particualar credulity.Big Daddy 21:25, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

The Reuters article you cite doesn't quote Wales as saying "impartial sources", those are the writer's words. I believe we can trust Misplaced Pages explicit policies over the interpretations of someone who doesn't even use Misplaced Pages.--kizzle 21:26, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Impartiality

I'm shocked and somewhat disturbed by all the advocates of what I can only characterize as 'sliming.'

Either Jimmy Wales, the founder of Misplaced Pages meant what he said when he was quoted as saying the articles must be backed by IMPARTIAL sources, or he was misquoted (and the burden is on those claiming that as no retraction has been made by CNN) or he is a liar trying to deceive the public that Misplaced Pages is something that it's not and that all you editors chiding me for bringing this up know it is not.

The Reuters article you cite doesn't quote Wales as saying "impartial sources", those are the writer's words. I believe we can trust Misplaced Pages explicit policies over the interpretations of someone who doesn't even use Misplaced Pages. --kizzle 22:07, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

I think we would be better served by finding out, if Jimmy Wales said this and why so many in here disregard his admonition.

The Reuters article you cite doesn't quote Wales as saying "impartial sources", those are the writer's words. I believe we can trust Misplaced Pages explicit policies over the interpretations of someone who doesn't even use Misplaced Pages. --kizzle 22:07, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Ps My personal feelings is that you cannot use partial sources and most people know that. For example if someone insisted, on using The Elders of Zion to trash Jews, they would be banned as they should be. But, when it serves the POV of certain editors, I believe they will conveniently defend the use of partial sources to trash people they don't like. Hope I'm wrong, but I don't think so... Big Daddy 21:52, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

I think we would be better served by adhering to Misplaced Pages's plainly delinated policies, and concentrating on resolving content disputes, instead of attempting to game the system. · Katefan0 21:58, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, this is just too funny. I'm appealing for IMPARTIALITY and quoting the FOUNDER and I'm accused of 'gaming the system.' I think that counts as not only an egregious personal attack and a violation of 'assume good faith' but really warrants an apology.Big Daddy 22:05, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

The Reuters article you cite doesn't quote Wales as saying "impartial sources", those are the writer's words. I believe we can trust Misplaced Pages explicit policies over the interpretations of someone who doesn't even use Misplaced Pages. --kizzle 22:07, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

I guess to some, a 'blank slate' just means 'continue your erroneous arguments'. CNN does not equal policy. You know all this, but you seem unable to modify your argument accordingly... because it is a flawed argument. -- RyanFreisling @ 21:55, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Dangerously close to your third personal attack in three tries. Big Daddy 22:05, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

I don't know anything about CNN in this context, but there was a Reuters article which misquoted me badly, and another Reuters article which was pretty good. My opinions about this matter are not particularly complicated: sources have to be handled with care, and citing extremely biased sources without qualification is a very bad thing. (I should not that in order to maintain my own impartiality in this little discussion, I've chosen not to even look at what sources are being disputed here.) I will give an example that might be pertinent: citing Indymedia (or similar) for anything factual having to do with Karl Rove would be quite a bad idea for the twin reasons that Indymedia is not a reliable news source and they would tend to have a strong bias against Rove. Citing a reputable news source like the Guardian would be fine, even though they would also tend to have a strong bias against Rove, because while the Guardian has a certain 'spin', it is also a reliable source for basic facts. If there actually is a legitimate controversy about the facts, it should be easy enough to find multiple reputable sources on different sides of the issue.

As I say, though, I don't think my views are particularly complicated, nor are they particularly unique or interesting. This is just ordinary good writing practice.--Jimbo Wales 11:20, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, Jimmy, for visiting to make your views known. paul klenk 11:57, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Indeed - thanks Jimmy! Those looking for more on this particular content issue go here .

Push Poll

Passage:

According to the campaign manager of John McCain's 2000 presidential bid, a push poll was conducted during the 2000 South Carolina primaries which asked potential voters "Would you be more likely or less likely to vote for John McCain for president if you knew he had fathered an illegitimate black child?". ,,,,, Since McCain was campaigning with his adopted Bangladeshi daughter, an image quickly gathered around that statement. The authors of the book Bush's Brain (also made into a movie)allege that Rove was involved in this push poll due to his intimate role as campaign advisor to Bush. In the movie, John Weaver, political director for McCain's 2000 campaign bid, says "I believe I know where that decision was made; it was at the top of the campaign." No proof of his direct involvement has ever surfaced.

Discussion:

There's no reason not to include the quotes - first whoever said they had no idea, and then the person who said it came from on high, and whatever other quotes we can dredge up. Hipocrite - «Talk» 21:16, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

BigDaddy keeps introducing the quote about the campaign managers not knowing specifically who made the calls as if its mutually exclusive to them believing Rove was ultimately behind the idea. I don't believe such a point is worthwhile to include, as it does no such thing and thus is tertiary. --kizzle 21:37, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, but he was given the opportunity, in a grand forum, to report SPECIFICALLY on what he believed about this incident and SPECIFICALLY said 'he doesn't know.' I'm sorry but that's as definitive as it gets, unless you simply want to put words in someone's mouth.Big Daddy 21:42, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

At the same time, there are just way too many sources about the push poll. Pick the best one. The initial insertion was a bit WP:POINT. Hipocrite - «Talk» 21:32, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Amen, I believe the Boston Globe is the most reliable out of the bunch. --kizzle 21:37, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

The sources were added to demonstrate that BD's argument for his repeated deletions - that this was the work of one author (that of the piece 'Bush's Hit Man') - was false. I see no reason to keep any but the Globe, since they are widely known to have 'broken' the story. I don't see it as WP:POINT when done to refute an erroneous excuse for vandalism. -- RyanFreisling @ 21:58, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Oh, so you added them? Thanks. Good to know. The problem with the sources is that one is a book review of Al Franken's hate screed (not even close to an impartial source) and a couple of them didn't even MENTION Karl Rove. Secondly, you mischaracterized my objection. I do object to the use of Bush's hit man as it's not only biased but because it offers no proof. Now some argue we should just vomit up all the slime we can on Rove and whatever sticks...sticks, and whatever can be refuted, ought to be. I say there comes a point where we are better served by just not including certain things where there is no proof. Especially in this article where there's a BUNCH of proof-less assertions (like him bugging his own office for example.)

Finally, let the record show that although Paul Klenk warned ryan that her use of the word vandalism in my thoughtful edits was a personal attack that she continues to use them, interspersed with other personal attacks, for the third time now. I wonder how this will be handled by Wik supervisors...er...mediators...Big Daddy 22:13, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

I look forward to any assistance they might provide - but my use of the term, and my communication to you, despite your constant personal attacks, does not constitute a personal attack, despite what you erroneously call a 'warning' by another user. And your threats and protestations continue... good thing they're so entertaining! -- RyanFreisling @ 22:57, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Here's what I propose:

First choice: DELETION.

Second choice: Until I can be backed up on my first choice:

According to the campaign manager of John McCain's 2000 presidential bid, a push poll was conducted during the 2000 South Carolina primaries which asked potential voters "Would you be more likely or less likely to vote for John McCain for president if you knew he had fathered an illegitimate black child?". ,,,,, Since McCain was campaigning with his adopted Bangladeshi daughter, an image quickly gathered around that statement. The authors of the book Bush's Brain (also made into a movie) that many critics say was created 'to make Rove look bad'allege that Rove was involved in this push poll due to his intimate role as campaign advisor to Bush. In the movie, John Weaver, political director for McCain's 2000 campaign bid, says "I believe I know where that decision was made; it was at the top of the campaign." In an editorial published in the Boston Globe, McCain's campaign manager said "Insert the quote here where he said he didn't know who where or for how long."

No, to either of your "choices". Your quote: "We had no idea who made the phone calls, who paid for them, or how many calls were made." Is Purposely taken out of context. The context is: "Thus, the "pollsters" asked McCain supporters if they would be more or less likely to vote for McCain if they knew he had fathered an illegitimate child who was black. In the conservative, race-conscious South, that's not a minor charge. We had no idea who made the phone calls, who paid for them, or how many calls were made. Effective and anonymous: the perfect smear campaign." You are purposely taking that quote out of context to try and invalidate the testimony of Richard H. Davis, McCain's former campaign manager. 69.121.133.154 22:08, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

First of all, what 'context' are you FALSELY accusing me of taking it out of. The man said he didn't know who did it. Period. Any INSERTION of Karl Rove into this mess is at the whim of the editor. Secondly you are in strict violation of 'assume good faith' as this impugns my motives. Big Daddy 22:20, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

• Rove Suggests Former POW McCain Committed Treason and Fathered Child With Black Prostitute. In 2000, McCain operatives in SC accused Rove of spreading rumors against McCain, such as "suggestions that McCain had committed treason while a prisoner of war, and had fathered a child by a black prostitute," according to the New Yorker. (New Yorker, 5/12/03)

• After Rove Denied Role In McCain Whisper Campaign, Reporters Concluded He Was Behind It. A December 1999 Dallas Morning News linked Rove to a series of campaign dirty tricks, including his College Republican efforts, allegedly starting a whisper campaign about Ann Richard being too gay-friendly, spreading stories about Jim Hightower's involvement in a kickback scheme and leaking the educational history of Lena Guerrero. The article also outlined current dirty tricks and whisper campaigns against McCain in South Carolina, including that "McCain may be unstable as a result of being tortured while a prisoner of war in North Vietnam." (DMN, 12/2/99) After the article was published, Rove blasted Slater in the Manchester, NH airport, "nose to nose" according to one witness, with Rove claiming Slater had "harmed his reputation," Slater later noted. But according to one witness, "What was interesting then is that everyone on the campaign charter concluded that Rove was responsible for rumors about McCain." (The Nation, 3/5/01)

• Bush Campaign Acknowledged Making Phone Calls. Tucker Eskew, Bush's South Carolina spokesman, acknowledged the Bush campaign made such calls, but claimed they were not "push polls." Eskew added, "Show me a baseless comment in those questions." (Post and Courier, 2/8/00)

• Rove Was In Close Touch With McConnell, McCain-Feingold's Chief Opponent. Senior White House adviser Karl Rove was in close contact with Senator Mitch McConnell (R-KY) during McConnell's effort to fight the McCain-Feingold Campaign Finance Bill in the U.S. Senate. According to Newsweek, though Rove and Bush have publicly kept their distance from McConnell on the issue, "sources tell Newsweek that Rove is, in fact, in close touch with McConnell as GOP experts study the bill for hidden land mines." (Newsweek, 2/25/02)

And here's some fun ones for the kids!!

• Bush Supporters Called McCain "The Fag Candidate." In South Carolina, Bush supporters circulated church fliers that labeled McCain "the fag candidate." Columnist Frank Rich noted that the fliers were distributed "even as Bush subtly reinforced that message by indicating he wouldn't hire openly gay people for his administration." (Washington Post, 2/18/00; Rich op-ed, Austin American-Statesman, 2/29/00)

• McCain Slurs Included Illegitimate Children, Homosexuality And A Drug-Addict Wife. Among the rumors circulated against McCain in 2000 in South Carolina was that his adopted Bangladeshi daughter was actually black, that McCain was both gay and cheated on his wife, and that his wife Cindy was a drug addict." (Ivins column, The Nation, 6/18/01)

--kizzle 22:05, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Can you provide the LINKS to articles where Karl Rove is SPECIFICALLY mentioned as being behind the McCain incident? You've proven your quite able to collect a lot of garbage on rove but a lot of these excerpts either don't mention rove or (in the only legit looking source Newsweek) don't mention McCain. Please try and PROVIDE specific proof for this false allegation that McCain's manager who knows says was done anonymously. Ps It seems to me this non-stop barrage of articles from those who disagree with my position that PROVE NOTHING ONE WAY OR THE OTHER suggests their argument is quite weak. OTOH, I have the facts to back me up. Not slime inneundo and extraneous garbage collecting. Just provide me one IMPARTIAL source who says KARL ROVE was directly involved in the push polling. 'All the way at the top' from a low ranking McCain official does not count as it mentions no names and is jut an opinion backed up by nothing and contradicted by the campaign manager who, while not being impartial himself, at least admitted he just doesn't know. Big Daddy 22:20, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Sure thing, thought you saw it above but I'll repeat it:

Rove Suggests Former POW McCain Committed Treason and Fathered Child With Black Prostitute. In 2000, McCain operatives in SC accused Rove of spreading rumors against McCain, such as "suggestions that McCain had committed treason while a prisoner of war, and had fathered a child by a black prostitute," according to the New Yorker. (New Yorker, 5/12/03)

:) --kizzle 22:28, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Thank you, but I'd like to see the link please. I'd like to see who in the New Yorker wrote this and in what context it was written. Thanks again, if this checks out, it could be useful. However, if this piece turns out to be something else it will be discrediting. Let's just take a look, shall we? Big Daddy 22:34, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Not sure if there is one... we can still attribute to the New Yorker, if you or anyone else has lexis-nexis, it'd be much appreciated to analyze the article. Until then, I think this serves your purpose. Keep in mind, even if the campaign manager didn't say it, an entire movie and book (both of which satisfy Misplaced Pages policy as notable sources) was made alleging Rove was behind it, which is enough to warrant the passage's inclusion in this article. --kizzle 22:40, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Not so fast...I did a little research. Correct me if I'm wrong, but did you pull this information from the DSSC site (Democrat Senatorial Campaign Committee) whose stated purpose is 'electing a Democratic senate'?? Here is the link: http://www.dscc.org/news/roundup/20050708_steele/ The Rove/Mccain reference looks an awful like what you dredged up...

... An AWFUL lot...lol!

Ps Get the article in question so I, and others, can have a look, or no dice. Bush's Brain is no more a credible source than the Clinton Chronicles or The Elders of Zion. Critics say Bush's Brain was created 'to make karl rove look bad.' Not Impartial which I still maintain is the policy not simply 'notable' but I'm getting a clarification on that from someone way high up in Wik as we speak...Big Daddy 22:48, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Much as you might wish it were so, Misplaced Pages is not an authoritarian state. There is no one 'way high up' in Misplaced Pages that wouldn't make themselves known here. -- RyanFreisling @ 22:59, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

You know that blogcritic article you linked, it was reviewed by some random chick named "El Bicho" who just has a blogspot page... apparently you don't hold movie reviews to the same standards of notability as your other edits. As for impartiality, first of all, the Reuters article does not "quote" Jimbo Wales as saying "impartial sources", those are the writer's words. Secondly, if you maintain that policy dictates usage of only "impartial" sources, then go to Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources, and Misplaced Pages:Cite_sources and do a word-search in your browser for "impartial"... tell me how many results you get. To actually quote Misplaced Pages policy:

• The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth.
• find a specific person or group who holds that opinion, mention them by name, and give a citation to some place where they can be seen or heard expressing that opinion.

--kizzle 23:21, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Kizzle,

In deference to Ryan's admonition, I'll try not to be so 'authoritarian' lol! Now what blogcritic link are you referring to? The movie review of Bush's Brain? Please be more specific.

As to the point of Misplaced Pages's threshold - I understand that it's verifiability, not truth. That's not my point.

My point is, as Katefan I think pointed out, you can't just edit the article to say rove is a cross dresser because some guy in a blog posted it. But that's verifiable.

So, it's more than just verifiability. It does ultimately go, as Jimmy Wales says (and for all your protestations that he didn't necessarily say that, why not contact Wik directly and find out if he did, or are you afraid to know? hmmm...) to IMPARTIALITY. We don't have an encyclopedia if it's not fair balanced and impartial.

Now impartial does NOT mean you can't quote the Nation or The Wall Street Journal. But pieces like Bush's Brain and Bush's Hit Man are not legit because they're obvious motive is to smear Rove without regard for balance. So, even if the New England Journal of Medicine published 'Bush's hit man' it would not be acceptable due to bias problems.

Finally, I'm sure if you go to liberal commentators's articles you will find no such debate. What Rush Limbaugh said about Al Franken is not gonna be in the Al Franken article even though it's clearly both notable and verifiable...Big Daddy 23:44, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

The Reuters article you cite doesn't quote Wales as saying "impartial sources", those are the writer's words. So I'm not sure if he has said it some other time, but the link you provided didn't contain the quote you are attempting to attribute to Wales. And read the second bullet point, I am quoting a notable opinion as per Misplaced Pages policies. --kizzle 22:07, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Also, we are an agreement that it is more than just verifiability. But if the threshold is impartiality, how come "impartial" doesn't show up once in Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources, and Misplaced Pages:Cite_sources? It's notable and reputable sources, not necessarily impartial sources. --kizzle 00:44, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

As of August 22, Republican senators...

There is a line in the section about Congressional reaction to Rove that lists a litany of slams from democratic congressman but the only thing it says about republicans is something to the effect that no one has challenged his standing.

But Republicans have had a lot to say about Rove/Plame. I'm wondering why it's missing in here? Could it be EVEN MORE PROOF that there was a liberal tilt to this article before I got here? Well, if you need some information about what Republicans think of plame/rove, here you go:

publican Senators Defend Karl Rove:

NRSC Chairwoman Elizabeth Dole (R-NC): “The Partisan Attacks Against Karl Rove Are Out Of Control And Entirely Inappropriate..” (National Republican Senatorial Committee, “Elizabeth Dole Statement On Karl Rove,” Press Release, 7/13/05)

Dole: “It Is Incredibly Irresponsible For Individuals And Organizations To Make Accusations Based On Rumor And Innuendo. It Is Unfair To The Investigation And Even More Unfair To Karl Rove.” (National Republican Senatorial Committee, “Elizabeth Dole Statement On Karl Rove,” Press Release, 7/13/05)

Sen. Norm Coleman (R-MN): “My Democratic Friends Would Be Doing The Nation A Great Service If They Spent Half As Much Time Getting Legislation Passed That Will Benefit The Country As They Do In Attacking Karl Rove.” (Sen. Norm Coleman, Press Release, 7/13/05)

Sen. Orrin G. Hatch (R-UT): “In All Honesty, The Facts Thus Far – And The E-Mail Involved – Indicate To Me That There Is Not A Problem Here…” (Jim VandeHei, “GOP On Offense In Defense Of Rove,” The Washington Post, 7/13/05)

Sen. John Cornyn (R-TX): “If Anyone Thought The Anger And Political Sniping That Infested The Capital During The Campaign Would End After The Election, They Were Flat Wrong. Partisan Attacks In Lieu Of The Facts Have Replaced Ideas, Action And Cooperation.” (Sen. John Cornyn, “Attacks On Rove ‘More Anger And Political Sniping,’” Press Release, 7/13/05)

Cornyn: “Sadly, These Attacks Are More Of The Same Kind Of Anger And Lashing Out That Has Become The Substitute For Bipartisan Action And Progress. While Republicans Focus On Accomplishing An Ambitious Agenda For The American People, Some Democrats And Their Allies In The Hyper-Partisan Interest Groups Continue On Their Path Of Smear And Distract.” (Sen. John Cornyn, “Attacks On Rove ‘More Anger And Political Sniping,’” Press Release, 7/13/05)

Sen. Arlen Specter (R-PA): “I Support Karl Rove.” (Tom Raum, “Newsview: CIA Leak Probe Focuses On Rove,” The Associated Press, 7/13/05)

Sen. Jeff Sessions (R-AL): “It’s Disappointing That Some Democrats Are Using An Ongoing Investigation To Try And Score Political Points. Instead Of Focusing On The People’s Business, Democrats Are Prejudging An Incomplete Investigation And Doing Nothing More Than Mounting Partisan Political Attacks.” (Sen. Jeff Sessions, “Statement Of U.S. Sen. Jeff Sessions On Karl Rove,” 7/13/05)

Republican Congressmen Defend Karl Rove:

House Majority Whip Roy Blunt (R-MO): “Karl Rove Has Fully Cooperated In Any Investigation, And For More Than A Year Now Has Permitted Investigators To Talk To Him.” (Rep. Roy Blunt, Floor Statement, U.S. House Of Representatives, 7/13/05)

House Republican Conference Chair Deborah Pryce (R-OH):” I Think What The Democrats Are Doing With Karl Rove Is Just Another Politically Motivated Part Of Their Agenda.” (CNN’s “Wolf Blitzer Reports,” 7/13/05)

NRCC Chairman Tom Reynolds (R-NY): “The Extreme Left Is Once Again Attempting To Define The Modern Democrat Party By Rabid Partisan Attacks, Character Assassination And Endless Negativity. And As Has Become Their Custom, The Rest Of The Democrat Party Is Standing By Silently.” (National Republican Congressional Committee, “NRCC Chairman Tom Reynolds Statement On Karl Rove, Democrat Partisan Attacks,” Press Release, 7/13/05)

• Reynolds: “Democrats Are Bitter About Losing In 2004. And They Will Stop At Nothing To Accomplish Through Character Assassination What They Could Not Accomplish At The Ballot Box.” (National Republican Congressional Committee, “NRCC Chairman Tom Reynolds Statement On Karl Rove, Democrat Partisan Attacks,” Press Release, 7/13/05)

Rep. Eric Cantor (R-VA): “Karl Rove Is Just The Latest In A Long Line Of Targets For The Democrats Vitriol And Political Games. The American People Want To Know How Congress Is Going To Keep The Economy Growing, Lower Energy Prices And Keep Them Secure At Home.” (Rep. Eric Cantor, “Cantor Statement on Democrat Attacks On Karl Rove,” Press Release, 7/13/05)

Rep. Jack Kingston (R-GA): “Karl Rove Who Did Not Even Know This Woman’s Name Did Not Have Any Information Of Her Acting In Any Covert Manner. It Is Just Silly.” (“Fox News’, “Fox News Live,” 7/13/05)

Kingston: “The Democrats Are Absent On Issues Such As Social Security, They Are Ambivalent About Iraq To Begin With And They’re Throwing Up One More Smoke Screen Aimed At Karl Rove Who They’re Mad At.” (“Fox News’, “Fox News Live,” 7/13/05)

House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-TX): “This Is Typical Of The Democrats. They Smell Blood And They Act Like Sharks. Karl Rove Is A Good Man. He Was Doing His Job. He Was Trying To Talk A Reporter Out Of Filing A False Story Based Upon False Premise. I Don’t See That He Has Done Anything Wrong.” (Fox News’ “Studio B,” 7/13/05)

Rep. Kay Granger (R-TX): “He Knew Then That Much Of What Joe Wilson Was Saying Was Untrue. The Calls For Mr. Rove’s Resignation Are Simply Partisan Gamesmanship.” (Rep. Kay Granger, “Congresswoman Granger Calls Democrat Attacks On Rove Partisan Gamesmanship,” Press Release, 7/13/05)

AND NOT ONE of these Congress people are quoted in the article. Wow!, huh.Big Daddy 23:51, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

BigDaddy, you've made your point. Now you need to do the work to move this material into the article. paul klenk 00:06, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Gladly. 68.40.151.220 02:26, 17 September 2005 (UTC) (Big Daddy)

No 5RR on Karl Rove by RyanFreisling

I have reported Ryan's 5RR on the main page in less than 19 hours. She hides her reverts behind false accusations of "vandalism". Some of us dispute the glut of negative content on the page. Trimming this content does not meet WP's definition of vandalism.

All five of Ryan's reverts were accompanied by their own accusations of POV, bad faith, vandalism, lack of exercise in writing skill, etc. I believe my report is fully justified.

You can read my report at: Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/3RR. I believe it speaks for itself.

paul klenk 03:44, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Wow! So that's who was removing my clearly discussed and reasonable edits designed to bring this article more in line with Wik's philosophy of nPOV. Good work, Paul. 68.40.151.220 05:20, 17 September 2005 (UTC)(Big Daddy)

The admins and other users wisely concluded there was no violation, and no block, nor warning was issued in response to this false report. -- RyanFreisling @ 09:17, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Ryan, the apology you have demanded on the Incident page will not be forthcoming. I fully reviewed the five edits in question, carefully weighed them, reviewed the definitions of 3RR and vandalism. I then made a conclusion, and I stand behind it. Further, please note that I never once asked for you to be blocked or punished; however, the reasons given for not blocking you were because the page was already protected and thus the edit war, caused in part by your five "undoings" of others, was over. Even katefan0 said you were being naughty.

My comments on your talk page stand. I believe that you are exhibiting almost every bad behavior that you are feverishly accusing BigDaddy777 of exhibiting. He is a new user. You are not. I get no pleasure from pointing this out; it truly sickens me.

You seem to take a lot of stock in getting a group to agree with you. The first thing you did was march in and claim victory, without going over the facts and without addressing my arguments. That will only get you so far. I carefully and precisely argued my case, point by point, to the entire group at the Incident page who were discussing the matter. Then I was chastised for doing so. You haven't answered my points. I believe I won the argument on the facts, and you won the argument on being given the benefit of the doubt with a very shaky case, and the fact that BigDaddy777 was an easy target for you.

But perhaps it will not be so easy for you in the future to bully people into silence while you undo their edits with accusations of vandalism, POV, bad faith, etc. We don't all owe you an explanation for every edit we make, and we don't need your permission in advance to make them. It is the ugliness in such demands that we do that I object to the most. paul klenk 10:04, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Demanded? Please. You reported me falsely - I committed no 5RR. But you felt you had to report me, and you were clearly told by numerous editors, with whom I had no discussion, that I had not committed any violation. You apologized to them for your appalling conduct, but you cannot apologize to me - is such a simple courtesy beyond you? It is actually quite satisfying to know you cannot. -- RyanFreisling @ 13:38, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Ryan, I must insist that you stop suggesting that there has been some judgment rendered in your favor here in terms of Paul's report. Noone has exonerated you (similarly, noone has judged you guilty). Myself and Dmcdevit have simply said that a block is not needed because the page is already protected. I will ask you to please stop misrepresenting this situation. Thanks. · Katefan0 15:28, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

I am sorry - I only meant to indicate that there had been no proven violation on my part... and to illustrate that Paul refused to apologize to me, although he apologized to you and the other admins and posters there. I was unaware I was 'misrepresenting' the situation. Frankly, I don't believe I am, but I will leave it alone if the bringer of the report will. -- RyanFreisling @ 15:55, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

The only thing I apologized for was getting Dmcdevit all riled up, simply because I was discussing the issue. He was mad; I apologized to calm him down -- you don't want to get an admin mad. That's it. I didn't apologize for reporting you, because I was justified and I will do it again and again. I will never apologize for reporting bad behavior. Now that I've identified your bullying tactics, I can encourage others to keep on eye your M.O. This is your M.O.:

You bully people. You stomp on their edits with lightning speed, quickly undoing them, and then leave an accusatory remark in the edit summary. You make them feel like they have to clear their edits with you before making them, which they don't. This is a demoralizing tactic to make your victim feel like a bad editor and put them on the defensive. Sometimes you accuse them of "POV", sometimes "vandalism", sometimes "bad faith," sometimes you just say, "not valid". Your accusations are ugly. You can't hide from your history, Ryan. You did this five times in less than 19 hours. Everyone can look for themselves.

I am not saying you can never undo another editor's actions, or undo the deletion of a disputed text. What you cannot do, is undo an action, an edit, an addition, or a deletion, of another editor more than three times in less than 24 hours, and then cover it up with a false accusation of vandalism. You did it yesterday five times.

BigDaddy and others are entitled to remove excessive or disputed text without being accused of vandalism. Please don't do that again.

And please don't blank my comments on this page, like you did on your talk page, calling them "complete bullshit" -- your words, not mine -- in the edit summary. I find that offensive. Now I will put it to rest if you will... paul klenk 19:44, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

I can delete the contents of my talk page if I find them offensive. I will remain consistent to my behavior - borne out in the page history - of not returning your litany of (now-renewed) personal attacks. The edits in question were completely unsubstantiated removals of text without valid reason - and thus inappropriate, and I reverted them for the right reasons. At the same time, I continued observing all the relevant guidelines for personal conduct. I am civil and cordial, and I do not bully - I reject that personal attack.

In addition, you continue to fundamentally misinterpret 3RR, so any additional 3RR complaints against me by you based on your faulty understanding will likely have a similar outcome. I suggest you concentrate on the article content, and not trumping up false reports of nonexistent violations. Plain and simple - there was no violation of the 3RR on my part - your assertions notwithstanding. -- RyanFreisling @ 19:52, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Ryan, you said:

"The edits in question were completely unsubstantiated removals of text without valid reason - and thus inappropriate, and I reverted them for the right reasons."

With respect, Ryan, you are entitled and allowed to undo those removals of text -- you can defend them with your reasons, the validity of which people can judge for themselves. You can undo the actions of another. That is allowed.

What you cannot do is "undo" actions more than three times in 24 hours -- even if you "think" they're justified. You did it five times in less than 19. What you cannot do is falsely accuse someone of "vandalism" to justify your reverts, because you don't "like" it when they trim away what they deem to be excessively POV or excessively negative. I know the rules.

I encourage others to review the five reverts. I also encourage others to review the edit history of Ryan's talk page and decide for themselves the spirit of my comments and the spirit of Ryan's blanking them. paul klenk 20:12, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

The 3rr incident report is closed - no block was issued - please stop. -- RyanFreisling @ 20:23, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Editing in Good Faith

Kizzle,

I think what's missing here is what lawyers sometimes call 'prosecutorial judgment.' We both agree conceptually with the notion of verifiability but not to the exclusion of other considerations.

What I can't make plain enough is that the days of the Karl Rove article being nothing more than a litany of unsubstantiated hit pieces is over. I and others will go in, re-work it so it reads like a LEGITIMATE encyclopedic article noting his many accomplishment. It will include controversies such as Plame etc but they will be undergirded by IMPARTIAL sources. All this far left wing nonesense has no place in this article. Bush's Brain, Bush's hit man, Bush's Goebbel...etc are not IMPARTIAL sources. You can go around the world as often as you like regarding what Wik's founder 'said' vs 'what CNN said he said' or whatever...Misplaced Pages WILL be an IMPARTIAL source of information. And to those of you hiding behind YOUR interpretation of the rules to defend the use of these SLANDER pieces...your not gonna get too far with that either. This will be a fair and honest resource. Big Daddy 06:57, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

May I ask what you consider an "impartial" source? · Katefan0 07:10, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Gone for the weekend. Have fun everybody. I'll be back soon to make sure this article is EXEMPLARY in fulfilling founder Jimmy Wales vision of an IMPARTIAL trustworthy encyclopedia that everyone will be proud of. I also will bone up on my rules so that I'll know the difference between being in violation of them and being FALSELY accused of being in violation of them in order to suppress my legitimate contribution.

Remember, just because someone starts a rumor about Karl Rove, and a bunch of partisans bounce it around in their paraochial echo chamber, it does NOT mean it's encyclopedic-worthy. It should always be the case, but ESPECIALLY in this article, where the subject has been so unfairly and incessantly ABUSED by entries that are no more than partisan whispers, that we all be extra-judicious in scrutinizing the partiality of supporting sources.

Ultimately sources must be examined on a case by case basis. But I can tell you an article CHOCK full of references (and in some cases sections ONLY supported by references) from articles like 'Bush's Hit Man', or deliberate slam pieces, like 'Bush's Brain', or articles that start out 'Karl Rove is Bush's Goebbels...' are not impartial. All source material for controversial assertions should have ACTIVE LINKS that can be examined by everybody for their lack or presence of partiality. It's true that, in controversial matters, almost everybody has a 'side' and it's foolish to pretend otherwise. But for too long, as has now been exposed by the EXCELLENT detective work of our esteemed collegue Paul Klenk, this article has literally been HELD HOSTAGE to those who capriciously and willfully ignore how fundamentally unfair and ignobly this subject has been treated, even to the point of violating the most basic rules of Wiki, in order to preserve their own territorial and partisan hegemony.Big Daddy 13:04, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Okay, but what exactly is an impartial source? I'm just asking for an example. · Katefan0 15:32, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

BD's rant is nonsense. He is under the delusion that all Wiki editors who disagree with him are "liberals." Check his profile page for verification of that. It's pure projection on his part, as he would like to build a devotional altar to Karl Rove, full of information only he agrees with. Well, it's not gonna work. BD has been RFC'd, and it's a telling page. It's also a page where he, quite cowardly, has chosen not to comment. When this page is unblocked, objective Wiki editors will continue to edit the article in good faith. I recommend BD be ignored, as his rants are nothing more than trolling. Please watch his edits; they are almost exclusively POV. BD, get this straight: any POV edits you make will be reverted, and and nPOV edits you delete will be restored. Now, go to your RFC page and defend yourself, if you can.

Impartial sources and the Killian documents

This article formerly had a perfectly NPOV account of the allegations against Rove about the Killian documents. Someone deleted the sentence reporting Rove’s denial, then someone else deleted the rest of the passage. The issue is notable because it was raised by prominent opponents of Rove, such as Congressmember Hinchey. There are impartial sources documenting that Hinchey made the accusation and that Rove denied it. We don't need to wait for a criminal conviction before reporting something like this. I suggest this language:

A few months after the controversy over the Killian documents during the 2004 campaign, it was suggested (by Representative Maurice Hinchey, among others) that Rove might have planted fake anti-Bush documents with CBS News. Allegedly, his motivation would have been the hope that CBS would rush to report the story with unverified documents, thereby deflecting attention from Bush's avoidance of military service during the Vietnam War. Rove has denied that he had any involvement.

When the page is unprotected, this item should be restored. JamesMLane 13:42, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, that LAST thing this article needs is more paranoid delusional Rove = Boogeyman entries. I'm trying to get rid of the UNSUBSTANTIATED ones already here! This is not a place to put all this garbage even if Rove's denial is included. It becomes a farce (Democratic Senator sasy Rove is BigFoot but Rove denies it in the Washington times....Leading critic says Rove wears his mother's army boots, but Fox News Bill O'Reilly denies....Please!(Big Daddy on the road)

Sorry, but your argument is inconsistent with the NPOV policy. The issue isn't whether a particular charge against Rove is true. Similarly, the issue isn't whether it's paranoid, delusional, substantiated, unsubstantiated, garbage, etc. The issue is whether it's notable. We certainly shouldn't report disputed points as being true, but if they're properly attributed, that's different. We make a truthful statement that a particular named person or source said thus-and-such about Rove.

If a Democratic Senator said that Rove were Bigfoot, yes, that should be included in this article. It would be a very telling illustration of Democrats treating Rove as a bogeyman. Some people will read the Hinchey comment in the same vein. A criticism by some random blogger somewhere wouldn't need to be mentioned. We report disputed allegations, such as the charge of cheating leveled against bridge player Terence Reese, and even the bit about Richard Gere and the gerbil. JamesMLane 00:07, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, no encyclopedia would be complete without the Richard Gere gerbil story! Keep in mind, if what you say is true, and this article is allowed to remain as what I've called a virtual dumping ground for allegations from every paranoid delusional Rove-hater on the left (as long as they can find a 'notable' source to prop them up), then I feel, to make it fair and balanced, EVERY 'allegation' should be countered. I've got plenty of verifiable quotes from notable sources. That whole scenario seems silly to me: 1) Find someone who will allege a wild charge. 2) Find someone who will denounce it. 3) Quote them both. But,if that's how Wik does it, then...I'm all in. Big Daddy (on the road)

That's the point, not every allegation "from every paranoid delusional Rove-hater on the left" is put here, only notable opinions on the matter. On a side note, I am highly curious as to your definition of impartiality, because if that was the criteria, I would think Karl Rove would be the very antithesis of impartiality due to his personal involvement in the case. --kizzle 18:19, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree with kizzle. Our problem is that we can't adopt either of the nice, easy, simplistic solutions -- including every allegation, from whatever source, or including no uncertain allegations (what would be acceptable? a court ruling?). This isn't a left vs. right thing. We have a whole daughter article about the allegation from paranoid delusional Kerry-haters on the right who claim that there was something fishy about Kerry's Vietnam medals.

Because we can't adopt either simple solution, we have to exercise some judgment. The point of NPOV is that "judgment" doesn't mean our personal opinions of whether the allegation is true, or well-founded, or whatever. It means our best good-faith attempt to assess, in a nonpartisan way, whether the allegation is objectively notable. A Democratic member of Congress making a charge like this is notable. Some crackpot posting delusional ravings about Rove on his website isn't. So, "Find someone who will allege a wild charge" isn't the Misplaced Pages approach -- nor is "Report only charges that have been established to be true beyond any shadow of doubt." JamesMLane 05:31, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Getting back to content

All -- I know things have gotten a little heated, and some mud has been thrown on both sides. I would encourage everybody to try to set personal stuff aside and concentrate on resolving content disputes instead of demagoguing. The article won't be unprotected until some agreements are made about the pertinent content disputes. But that won't happen until the noise-to-signal ratio on this talk page narrows considerably. (And this is intended for everybody -- both sides need to refocus their attention on resolving content disputes.)

Push Poll

Passage:

According to the campaign manager of John McCain's 2000 presidential bid, a push poll was conducted during the 2000 South Carolina primaries which asked potential voters "Would you be more likely or less likely to vote for John McCain for president if you knew he had fathered an illegitimate black child?". ,,,,, Since McCain was campaigning with his adopted Bangladeshi daughter, an image quickly gathered around that statement. The authors of the book Bush's Brain (also made into a movie)allege that Rove was involved in this push poll due to his intimate role as campaign advisor to Bush. In the movie, John Weaver, political director for McCain's 2000 campaign bid, says "I believe I know where that decision was made; it was at the top of the campaign." No proof of his direct involvement has ever surfaced.

Discussion:

Has there been a consensus achieved on this passage? · Katefan0 15:38, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Uh, no...as I've repeatedly stated there are numerous problems with this section. The supporting 'sources' include an Al Franken book review, a Cal Berkley school paper op ed starting with "Well found rumor has it...", an obscure left wing editorial endorsing John Kerry for President and at least one source that FAILS to even mention Rove. I, in good faith, assume you did not look at these sources because I can't imagine anyone insulting our collective

intelligence with a suggestion that this section has been agreed to. Perhaps you were just asking where we were on that. I hope this answers your question.

To the greater question however, this article DOES NOT need pieces like this. There is no proof, the man who is most likely to know says it was anonymous sources. The (relatively) low level McCain operative does not specifically finger Rove. He said the top which I could infer to mean Bush, Cheney, Hughes or Rove. Besides his finger pointing is trumped by the campaign director (see footnote from Boston Globe) who says 'he doesn't know.' Now, in a bit of tortured logic only a pretzel could appreciate, it has been argued that he doesn't know doesn't mean he doesn't know but really means that Rove did it! lol!

Bottom line, I object to it's inclusion unless someone can come up with something more solid than a clip from Bush's Brain hit piece that STILL doesn't mention Rove. And, since I'm gone this weekend, I just happened to check this on the road, understand that on Monday when I return, I won't have changed my mind about this or any other comments made about my serious concerns regarding the POV of this article. I don't expect Wik to stop running when I'm gone. I'm merely pointing out if people plan on agreeing that there's a concensus, knowing full well my objections, there won't be a concensus come Monday. Please understand that ALL these UNSUBSTANTIATED rumors (which is what they are no matter how much they resonate in the echo chambers of democratic party headquarters)are not acceptable for an encyclopedia entry. For a better idea of how Rove should be treated, go to Hillary Clinton's article. It's not all positive but it's fair. One editor even suggested to another that, if they didn't like Hillary, they should find another article to edit. Can you imagine if that policy were adopte here? lol!! I'd have to do just about all the work myself!

(Big Daddy on the road. )

Ps. I'm just asking for fairness.

Misunderstandings of Policy

Sigh... please listen to what I'm saying BigDaddy.

• The Reuters article you cite doesn't quote Wales as saying "impartial sources", those are the writer's words. I believe we can trust Misplaced Pages explicit policy over the interpretations of someone who doesn't even use Misplaced Pages. So I'm not sure if he has said it some other time, but the link you provided didn't contain the quote you are attempting to attribute to Wales. Until you provide a source, please stop attributing this claim of using impartiality as a threshold for sources to Wales.

• We are an agreement that it is more than just verifiability. But if the threshold is impartiality, how come "impartial" doesn't show up once in Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources, and Misplaced Pages:Cite_sources? It's notable, reputable, and verifiable sources, not necessarily impartial sources.

--kizzle 00:44, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, you are in essence arguing that Misplaced Pages can have articles filled with partial, biased sources so long at they are notable, reputable, and verifiable. And this does stand in contradistinction to Wales public pronouncements which he has not asked to be corrected. I am getting a clarification on this but in the meantime, do you really want to call Jimmy Wales a liar (for promoting Wik as a place where impartial sources are de rigeur when they in actuality are not. Or incompetent for not forcing CNN to correct this 'misrepresentation'?