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view · edit Frequently asked questions To view the response to a question, click the link to the right of the question. Family and religious background Q1: Why isn't Barack Obama's Muslim heritage or education included in this article? A1: Barack Obama was never a practitioner of Islam. His biological father having been "raised as a Muslim" but being a "confirmed atheist" by the time Obama was born is mentioned in the article. Please see this article on Snopes.com for a fairly in-depth debunking of the myth that Obama is Muslim. Barack Obama did not attend an Islamic or Muslim school while living in Indonesia age 6–10, but Roman Catholic and secular public schools. See , , The sub-articles Public image of Barack Obama and Barack Obama religion conspiracy theories address this issue. Q2: The article refers to him as African American, but his mother is white and his black father was not an American. Should he be called African American, or something else ("biracial", "mixed", "Kenyan-American", "mulatto", "quadroon", etc.)? A2: Obama himself and the media identify him, the vast majority of the time, as African American or black. African American is primarily defined as "citizens or residents of the United States who have origins in any of the black populations of Africa", a statement that accurately describes Obama and does not preclude or negate origins in the white populations of America as well. Thus we use the term African American in the introduction, and address the specifics of his parentage in the first headed section of the article. Many individuals who identify as black have varieties of ancestors from many countries who may identify with other racial or ethnic groups. See our article on race for more information on this concept. We could call him the first "biracial" candidate or the first "half black half white" candidate or the first candidate with a parent born in Africa, but Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source which reports what other reliable sources say, and most of those other sources say "first African American". Readers will learn more detail about his ethnic background in the article body. Q3: Why can't we use his full name outside of the lead? It's his name, isn't it? A3: The relevant part of the Manual of Style says that outside the lead of an article on a person, that person's conventional name is the only one that's appropriate. (Thus one use of "Richard Milhous Nixon" in the lead of Richard Nixon, "Richard Nixon" thereafter.) Talk page consensus has also established this. Q4: Why is Obama referred to as "Barack Hussein Obama II" in the lead sentence rather than "Barack Hussein Obama, Jr."? Isn't "Jr." more common? A4: Although "Jr." is typically used when a child shares the name of his or her parent, "II" is considered acceptable, as well. And in Obama's case, the usage on his birth certificate is indeed "II", and is thus the form used at the beginning of this article, per manual of style guidelines on names. Q5: Why don't we cover the claims that Obama is not a United States citizen, his birth certificate was forged, he was not born in Hawaii, he is ineligible to be President, etc? A5: The Barack Obama article consists of an overview of major issues in the life and times of the subject. The controversy over his eligibility, citizenship, birth certificate etc is currently a fairly minor issue in overall terms, and has had no significant legal or mainstream political impact. It is therefore not currently appropriate for inclusion in an overview article. These claims are covered separately in Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories. Controversies, praise, and criticism Q6: Why isn't there a criticisms/controversies section? A6: Because a section dedicated to criticisms and controversies is no more appropriate than a section dedicated solely to praise and is an indication of a poorly written article. Criticisms/controversies/praises should be worked into the existing prose of the article, per the Criticism essay. Q7: Why isn't a certain controversy/criticism/praise included in this article? A7: Misplaced Pages's Biography of living persons policy says that "riticism and praise of the subject should be represented if it is relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to take sides; it needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone." Criticism or praise that cannot be reliably sourced cannot be placed in a biography. Also, including everything about Obama in a single article would exceed Misplaced Pages's article size restrictions. A number of sub-articles have been created and some controversies/criticisms/praises have been summarized here or been left out of this article altogether, but are covered in some detail in the sub-articles. Q8: But this controversy/criticism/praise is all over the news right now! It should be covered in detail in the main article, not buried in a sub-article! A8: Misplaced Pages articles should avoid giving undue weight to something just because it is in the news right now. If you feel that the criticism/controversy/praise is not being given enough weight in this article, you can try to start a discussion on the talk page about giving it more. See WP:BRD. Q9: This article needs much more (or much less) criticism/controversy. A9: Please try to assume good faith. Like all articles on Misplaced Pages, this article is a work in progress so it is possible for biases to exist at any point in time. If you see a bias that you wish to address, you are more than welcome to start a new discussion, or join in an existing discussion, but please be ready to provide sources to support your viewpoint and try to keep your comments civil. Starting off your discussion by accusing the editors of this article of having a bias is the quickest way to get your comment ignored. Talk and article mechanics Q10: This article is over 275kb long, and the article size guideline says that it should be broken up into sub-articles. Why hasn't this happened? A10: The restriction mentioned in WP:SIZE is 60kB of readable prose, not the byte count you see when you open the page for editing. As of May 11, 2016, this article had about 10,570 words of readable prose (65 kB according to prosesize tool), only slightly above the guideline. The rest is mainly citations and invisible comments, which do not count towards the limit. Q11: I notice this FAQ mentions starting discussions or joining in on existing discussions a lot. If Misplaced Pages is supposed to be the encyclopedia anyone can edit, shouldn't I just be bold and fix any biases that I see in the article? A11: It is true that Misplaced Pages is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit and no one needs the permission of other editors of this article to make changes to it. But Misplaced Pages policy is that, "While the consensus process does not require posting to the discussion page, it can be useful and is encouraged." This article attracts editors that have very strong opinions about Obama (positive and negative) and these editors have different opinions about what should and should not be in the article, including differences as to appropriate level of detail. As a result of this it may be helpful, as a way to avoid content disputes, to seek consensus before adding contentious material to or removing it from the article. Q12: The article/talk page has been vandalized! Why hasn't anyone fixed this? A12: Many editors watch this article, and it is unlikely that vandalism would remain unnoticed for long. It is possible that you are viewing a cached result of the article; If so, try bypassing your cache. Disruption Q13: Why are so many discussions closed so quickly? A13: Swift closure is common for topics that have already been discussed repeatedly, topics pushing fringe theories, and topics that would lead to violations of Misplaced Pages's policy concerning biographies of living persons, because of their disruptive nature and the unlikelihood that consensus to include the material will arise from the new discussion. In those cases, editors are encouraged to read this FAQ for examples of such common topics. Q14: I added new content to the article, but it was removed! A14: Double-check that your content addition is not sourced to an opinion blog, editorial, or non-mainstream news source. Misplaced Pages's policy on biographies of living persons states, in part, "Material about living persons must be sourced very carefully. Without reliable third-party sources, it may include original research and unverifiable statements, and could lead to libel claims." Sources of information must be of a very high quality for biographies. While this does not result in an outright ban of all blogs and opinion pieces, most of them are regarded as questionable. Inflammatory or potentially libelous content cited to a questionable source will be removed immediately without discussion. Q15: I disagree with the policies and content guidelines that prevent my proposed content from being added to the article. A15: That's understandable. Misplaced Pages is a work in progress. If you do not approve of a policy cited in the removal of content, it's possible to change it. Making cogent, logical arguments on the policy's talk page is likely to result in a positive alteration. This is highly encouraged. However, this talk page is not the appropriate place to dispute the wording used in policies and guidelines. If you disagree with the interpretation of a policy or guideline, there is also recourse: Dispute resolution. Using the dispute resolution process prevents edit wars, and is encouraged. Q16: I saw someone start a discussion on a topic raised by a blog/opinion piece, and it was reverted! A16: Unfortunately, due to its high profile, this talk page sees a lot of attempts to argue for policy- and guideline-violating content – sometimes the same violations many times a day. These are regarded as disruptive, as outlined above. Consensus can change; material previously determined to be unacceptable may become acceptable. But it becomes disruptive and exhausting when single-purpose accounts raise the same subject(s) repeatedly in the apparent hopes of overcoming significant objections by other editors. Editors have reached a consensus for dealing with this behavior: Efforts by established single-purpose accounts to introduce such poorly-sourced content will be summarily deleted. On the second such attempt, the source in question will be immediately reported to the reliable sources noticeboard for administrative assistance. New editors who wish to engage in discussions on previously rejected content are encouraged to ensure that their sources do not violate any of Misplaced Pages's policies and sourcing guidelines. Other Q17: Why aren't the 2008 and 2012 presidential campaigns covered in more detail? A17: They are, in sub-articles called Barack Obama 2008 presidential campaign and Barack Obama 2012 presidential campaign. Things that are notable in the context of the presidential campaigns, but are of minimal notability to Barack Obama's overall biography, belong in the sub-articles. Campaign stops, the presidential debates, and the back-and-forth accusations and claims of the campaigns can all be found there.

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations: Jose Antonio Vargas (2007-09-17). "On Misplaced Pages, Debating 2008 Hopefuls' Every Facet". The Washington Post. Alison Stewart, Rachel Martin (2008-04-03). "'Round the Clock: Obama, Clinton Wiki-Warfare". The Bryant Park Project, NPR. Brooke Gladstone, Bob Garfield (2008-04-04). "Editors in Chief". On The Media, NPR. Eve Fairbanks (2008-04-09). "Wiki Woman". The New Republic. Jesse Brown (2008-04-10). "Hillary's Wiki Defender". Search Engine, CBC Radio One. Tom Foreman (2008-04-12). "Misplaced Pages Wars". This Week..., CNN. John J. Miller (2008-04-21). "Liberal Web". National Review. Kelly Heyboer (2008-05-28). "Clinton's entry in Misplaced Pages has a watchdog". The Star-Ledger. Paul Murnane (2008-05-28). "one of two pieces aired". WCBS Newsradio 880.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Barack Obama article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

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Website?

I think this should be in the section where it shows his website. The Obama for Illinois senator is old and outdated. http://www.barackobama.com/splash/first_to_know.html user:chasesboys

BarackObama.com is already included, I move to delete this section. natezomby (talk)

RE: 2nd paragraph, 1st sentence

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

I'm closing this again due to it being a rehash of the same argument. Please see the FAQ for reasoning behind the term African American. Brothejr (talk) 11:44, 2 October 2008 (UTC) I've followed this issue for months and all the past conversation about it has been pointless due to too much absolutism.

This sentence:

"Obama is the first candidate of African American heritage to be nominated by a major political party for president"

I haven't followed the conversation for months, and I'm not pouring through 35 pages of archives to find it, but here's my two cents: I think this is ridiculously complicated because of political correctness. I think there is merit in not wanting to broadly paint Obama's ethnicity with a brush, but I think it's understood by most level-headed people that "African American" means an American with at least some black ancestry. I don't necessarily agree with this collective consensus, but it's not something I'm going to climb the Reichstag in a Spider-Man suit over. Besides, when it comes to something like this I believe that it's the person's own identification that matters unless it's a ridiculous assertion, such as Uncle Ruckus saying he's white.

And regardless of all that, the second sentence is technically incorrect. "Of African American heritage" would entail that Obama's father is from Detroit or something. But he's Kenyan, so he's African not African American. Therefore, Obama may be considered African American, but he's not of African American heritage. If your goal is emphasize that he's not 100% black (which probably a sizable portion of the African American population isn't), then you'd need to use different wording. --Amwestover (talk) 15:46, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

• The sentence I offered as an alternative says the same thing, but with more precision and clarity. 216.153.214.89 (talk) 04:14, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

You say that, but what it really does is introduce ambiguity when there previously was none. He calls himself African American, the world media considers him African American, that is the general consensus here as well, therefore, that is how it will remain. Case. Closed. Duuude007 (talk) 18:57, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

• My suggestion does indeed suggest something other than a singular assertion and that's why I offer it. It is simply factually false that Obama "is" African American. My best friend is 1/2 Irish and 1/2 Italian. Is he "Irish American", "Italian American" or "Of Italian and Irish heritage"? It's only people who want to help advance the POV myth that Obama "is" African American exclusively who oppose my very reasonable edit. What my edit does is offer a common description of Obama, while leaving room for the fact that the common description is imprecise. 216.153.214.89 (talk) 04:15, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

• This was archived? Does that mean that some people have a problem with letting others discuss this point here?.. 216.153.214.89 (talk) 00:14, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Barack's Current Kansas Family

Current members of Barack Obama's Kansas family include Margaret McCurry Wolf of Hutchinson and her son Milton R. Wolf, M.D. of Leawood, Spence McCurry of Wichita and his children Spencer, Frank, Kelli and Jamie.

Perhaps this should be added to the main page?

I doubt it. They're not members of his immediate family, they're part of his extended family. If anywhere, they should be described (with sources) in Family of Barack Obama. --GoodDamon 13:38, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Significance of Barack's Kansas heritage is often cited by Barack himself. As such, it seems that he considers this to be of central significance, immediate family or not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Informationispower2008 (talk • contribs) 23:58, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

If we were to list every first cousin twice removed in this article, it would be insanely long. The fact that he values his Kansas heritage is notable and worthy of mention with proper citation. An exhaustive list of every distant relative is not. --Clubjuggle /C 13:19, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree. That's why I included only his current Kansas family. Informationispower2008 (talk) 18:48, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

The Question of Barack Obama's Place of Birth

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

ObamaCrimes.com states the following on Barack Obama's REAL place of birth:

Philip J. Berg, Esquire, the Attorney who filed suit against Barack H. Obama challenging Senator Obama’s lack of “qualifications” to serve as President of the United States, announced today that Obama and Democratic National Committee filed a Joint Motion to Dismiss on the last day to file a response, for the obvious purpose of delaying Court action in the case of Berg v. Obama, No. 08-cv-04083.

Their joint motion indicates a concerted effort to avoid the truth by delaying the judicial process, although legal, by not resolving the issue presented: that is, whether Barack Obama was “natural born.”

It is obvious that Obama was born in Kenya and does not meet the “qualifications” to be President of the United States pursuant to our United States Constitution. Obama cannot produce a certified copy of his “Vault” Birth Certificate from Hawaii because it does not exist.

Angie Y. (talk) 22:42, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

So? Look at the source. Do you really think there work has any place in an encylopedia? Obama was born more in the US than McCain was, but both as citizens. Grsz 04:22, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

(ec) We've discussed this odd little conspiracy theory already. Obama was born in Hawaii. Obamacrimes.com is not a reliable source. The suit, even if real, is not notable. Anybody can file suit against anyone in America, and apparently one has. Berg has also sued George Bush and perhaps John McCain on other conspiracy theories it seems. Given the editor's recent edit history and the article probation status (see notice at top of page) I'll caution this editor not to promote conspiracy theories on important article talk pages. Wikidemon (talk) 04:30, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

This should be added. It's something involving Barack's true place of origin. Angie Y. (talk) 12:09, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely, positively not. This will never happen, and I ask you to give it up right now before you end up with an incident report. "Obamacrimes" is not a reliable source, and the idea that you could push it as a reliable source over real newspapers and the state of Hawaii is laughable. This discussion is over before it began, but I'll leave it archived here temporarily as a blunt warning to others of three things:

• This article is on probation
• WP:BLP applies
• Poor sources will not be tolerated

Do not bring this up again. As a relatively experienced editor, you should know better. --GoodDamon 12:17, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

GoodDamon, I am not a WikiPedia expert or anything like that. However I find your comments troubling on not even allowing any questions on Obama's place of birth. I thought Misplaced Pages was a searcher for truth. The tone I am reading from you comments is one of "this is the truth and we should not question it". I would think a better tone to take with someone who makes a statement without facts is to say more proof is required. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.236.112.195 (talk) 19:52, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

It's not that I won't "allow" such questions. If someone simply asks where Obama was born, I see no reason not to answer such a question by pointing out the in-article citations that list his place of birth as Hawaii. But in the discussion above, no question was being asked. Rather, a laughably biased source was presented as proof-positive of Obama's foreign birth (something I'm fairly sure U.S. Federal Election Commission might be interested in if there was even the faintest scrap of evidence). Misplaced Pages uses reliable, secondary sources such as newspapers and peer-reviewed academic journals, with solid reputations for fact-checking and accuracy. "ObamaCrimes.com" has no such reputation. Furthermore, this is a biography of a living person, meaning anything libelous that ends up in it may be grounds to sue Misplaced Pages. So when patently libelous accusations like those in the closed discussion above appear, Misplaced Pages editors are strongly encouraged to shut them down, and shut them down fast. Now, let me make something clear... Let's say the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal or some other reliable source of information came out with a serious journalistic investigation that presented irrefutable evidence of Obama's foreign-soil birth. Then it would merit inclusion in the article. Until then, though, absolutely not. --GoodDamon 20:37, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your clarifications. I use Misplaced Pages quite often and really like the fight against POV. While I appreciate your concern against liabilities, I am noting a perhaps overly quick use of adverbs, like "laughably". Rather than characterize something outrageous, I would say understatement would make points even louder, a.k.a. the deafening silence. Anyway, Wikepedia is a great resource that should be protected, defended and even debated but never forget the openeness that has made it so startling. Carry on GoodDamon! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.236.112.195 (talk) 20:58, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

You're welcome, and I'm glad you find it to be a useful resource. I suppose my vehemence comes from constantly having to respond to every POV warrior who comes along with astounding evidence that Barack Obama eats a live puppy every morning before praying to Satan over the blood of virgins, as proven at www.obamaisatraitortoallhumanity.com. It makes makes one a little snarky. --GoodDamon 21:16, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Obama Supporters image

I recently added an image of some supporters in the political positions section, which I thought made a good example of supporters at a rally supporting Obama's political positions. This is the image to the right. Usergreatpower (talk) 19:30, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

I do not think this image adds anything to the article. We have other images that show supporters, and this one does not portray the bio subject himself. Obviously, if other editors see the value of it, comment so here. LotLE×talk 19:33, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't see the value in it.LedRush (talk) 19:39, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Neither do I. This isn't particularly notable, either. »S0CO 19:59, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

It's not a bad picture, but it doesn't seem particularly relevant to this article. Is there an article specifically about Obama's political rallies? It might fit better there. --GoodDamon 20:05, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

magna cum laude

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Closing this discussion.Brothejr (talk) 17:16, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

My understanding is that the campaign has refused to release his college transcripts and test scores and there has been no independent verification that he graduated magna cum laude from Harvard. Absent any evidence to the contrary we should remove that reference. If and when the campaign releases his transcripts and we can independently verify that information we can add it later.

It's interesting that they refuse to release his transcripts and test scores.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_were_Barack_Obama%27s_grades_in_college

Lordvolton (talk) 11:39, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Before we just start to remove things from the article, what do third party (I.E. reliable sources) say about his graduating magna cum laude? Brothejr (talk) 12:13, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Doing a quick check of various sources, all say he graduated magna cum laud. Brothejr (talk) 12:15, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I bet those sources got it from this wikipedia article. We may need to get an independent verification from the school itself or perhaps the campaign (i.e., release of transcript). There was no citation to the magna cum laude reference.

I'm removing it until we can get independent verification. A call to Harvard Law School might be in order. They might be willing to make a public statement. Lordvolton (talk) 12:23, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Such a call would be original research in violation of Misplaced Pages's policies. We report what reliable sources say. --Clubjuggle /C 12:48, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Harvard Law School can do a press release that is freely available to the public. The only way to independently verify the claim is from the Law School directly or a release of the transcript by the campaign. But an unverified claim, which apparently slipped unnoticed until now, is simply not up to snuff. I have no idea how long that unverified claim has been sitting there, but the Lord only know how many journalists referenced it.

We probably need to pay closer attention to uncited claims within the article. Lordvolton (talk) 13:25, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Reliable sources:

• Fornek, Scott (January 22, 2003). 'Blessed by God,' rooted in two continents. Chicago Sun-Times, p. 8:

  He was the first African American president of the Harvard Law Review and graduated magna cum laude in 1991.

• Kodama, Marie C. (January 19, 2007). Obama Left Mark on HLS; Profs fondly recall Law School alum as he launches presidential bid. The Harvard Crimson:

  The presidential hopeful graduated magna cum laude from the Law School in 1991;

• Kantor, Jodi (January 28, 2007). In law school, Obama found political voice. The New York Times. p. 1:

  He was a black man who had helped one of Harvard's most celebrated professors, Laurence H. Tribe, with an article on law and physics, and would graduate magna cum laude.

Not a reliable source:

• an edit six days ago by "Mazer Rackem" on WikiAnswers, "a wiki-based Q&A project powered by contributors from all walks of life. Anyone can ask, answer or edit questions, building a global Q&A database, covering all topics."

Newross (talk) 13:58, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Are those truly reliable sources given the fact that that campaign refuses to release his transcripts? If we can verify that the transcript has never been released then it will open up a whole new can of worms. How do these "reliable sources" know he was magna cum laude if the transcript was never released?

Did they have access to his law school transcript? For all we know they're referencing this uncited wikipedia statement or Obama is making claims off the record about his grades while simultaneously preventing anyone from viewing his transcripts.

He cannot have it both ways. Lordvolton (talk) 14:10, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Um, first off, you don't need access to his law school transcript to find out he graduated from Harvard with as a magna cum laude. All it takes is a staffer, lawyer, etc, to go into Harvard's files (while not violating Barak's privacy) and verify that he was magna cum laude. Next, if you read each article they all verify that he did graduate as a magna cum laude by simply doing some research. Finally, this sounds more like a "crusade for truth" argument that for some reason if Barack shows us his college transcript, then we would see all the "bad" stuff and that he is lying about being a magna cum laude. Did I get that right? Sadly enough Reliable Sources say he graduated Harvard a magna cum laude, that satisfies a variety of rules including the big one: WP:BLP. Brothejr (talk) 14:18, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I assume he graduated magna cum laude. I'm not a political expert, but doesn't his staffers fact check his Misplaced Pages page? If he didn't graduate magna cum laude certainly someone would have removed it by now. Frankly I was shocked to see the statement uncited. As much as I'd like to take it at face value, the reality is that it's been sitting there for a long time as an unverified claim and absent doing something along the lines you're suggesting we may never know.

I attempted to read all of the "reliable sources" although one required a password. It's not clear to me that they independently verified the reference. The Crimson Tide has an email address for Marie C. Kodama and there is a form email for Jodi Kantor who wrote the above referenced NY Times Article. Maybe we should check in with them to see where they got their information?

Regarding a mission for truth, if the Obama campaign only releases information pertaining to his magna cum laude status I can already see the media complaining that he's cherry picking his academic information. But that's for others to decide and probably not relevant to the discussion at hand.Lordvolton (talk) 15:01, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Alas, there are numerous reliable resources that say he graduated magna. Your quest for transcrips is original research and unnecessary. The language stays until proven false by other reliable resources.LedRush (talk) 15:36, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

We may need to have someone else review the process, since there is no way of knowing they were not relying on this uncited article when they inserted the claim in their articles. It should stay out until we verify that they were not referencing this article -- which did not cite a source. I'm sure it won't take long for someone to verify it from the most reliable source: Harvard Law School.

Let's remember that this is a verifiable fact. It's not like we're talking about something that is opinion. He either graduated magna cum laude or he didn't. Lordvolton (talk) 15:49, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

There are tons of reliable sources for the statement, and until something contradicts the overwhelming evidence and citations, the statement should stay.LedRush (talk) 15:55, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

It's not necessarily overwhelming given the fact that Misplaced Pages made the statement without a citation. There is one rock solid source: Harvard Law School. It's a verifiable fact, you seem very eager to pretend that wikipedia making an unverified claim didn't taint the waters. We'll get to the bottom of it and then there will be no question about it. I'm operating on the assumption it's true, but I recognize the effect our articles can have on news stories that are not well researched or fact checked. Lordvolton (talk) 16:25, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Can we close this discussion? There's really nothing more to say on the subject. On one side, multiple reliable sources are cited which prove this fact is true. On the other side is simply one person trying to edit-war over their own personal conspiracy theory. What a waste of time. Unless multiple reliable sources can be found that contradict the ones we already have, there isn't anything to even begin discussing. --Loonymonkey (talk) 16:45, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Probably for the best. A 3RR report has been opened. Grsz 16:51, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Race discussions

See Talk:Barack Obama/race for any active discussions of Obama's race, ethnicity, birthplace, citizenship, religion, etc.

I've taken the above step to try to separate these matters from other work on the article. I've set up archiving there so if it works they will get archived on a slightly slower scale (15 days) to the main archive. Wikidemon (talk) 20:14, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Discussions moved so far:

Obama's True Ethnicity
Ancestry 

I'm not sure this is an appropriate course of action. The creation of a sub-discussion page is generally limited to discussions that have become quite large and that certainly isn't the case for the frequent appearances of people complaining about Obama's race. The use of a sub-discussion page will also encourage more discussions being created on the race as people that are coming here to make the comments will not be used to the discussion taking place on a sub-page and will assume that no-one has brought it up before. All in all, the best course of action is to A) point anyone that questions Obama's ethnicity to the FAQ, then close the discussion. B) If the person is bringing up the "He's an A-rab!!" smear, replace the content of the section with <The content in this section was removed due to a violation of Misplaced Pages's biographies of living persons policy> and put {{uw-blp}} on the talkpage of the user that created the section. --Bobblehead 22:32, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Bobblehead on this. Tvoz/talk 22:42, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Ditto. Yes, it's annoying to swat down the same thing several times a week, but moving the discussion won't solve that. If anything it will make the problem worse. I say we just keep doing what we've been doing (per Bobblehead) --Loonymonkey (talk) 22:47, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

What are we doing? By Bobblehead's reasoning both discussions could have been summarily removed, although BLP isn't the real reason. Let's face it, the real problem is a combination of newbyism, failure to read the FAQ and Misplaced Pages guidelines, and the matter of perennial proposals. Some are simply misguided and innocent. Other times it's repeat disruption, sockpuppets, or people pushing fringe agendas. If we leave them up there they become troll magnets. If we explain or politely refer to the FAQ, it usually doesn't persuade someone who believes these sorts of things. If we delete citing policy that's WP:BITEy and sometimes leads the editor to start revert warring or posting again and again. I don't see how it makes things worse to give people their own space, out of the way, to discuss this to their heart's content. Wikidemon (talk) 22:54, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Frankly, I've gotta side with Bobblehead. I don't think it's a good precedent to set to move discussions -- even when they're perennial repeats -- into subpages. Sure, everyone's annoyed by them, but they're easy to shut down with simple statements of Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. --GoodDamon 23:10, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

POV in "Cultural and Political Image" Section

The information given in this section seems biased toward a critical, negative view of Obama's cultural and political image. Does anyone else believe this section's material to be unbalanced? NJMauthor (talk) 21:28, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Can you cite specific passages you feel are POV and state why? It's hard to discuss without specifics. Thanks! --Loonymonkey (talk) 21:36, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Alright. I'll go point by point, because I'm highlighting a cumulative POV.

The first passage contains: >"Obama's early life experiences differ markedly from those of African American politicians who launched their careers in the 1960s through participation in the civil rights movement."

This can either be viewed as neutral, or negative, trying to distance obama from members of the civil rights movement.

>"In January 2007, The End of Blackness Debra Dickerson warned against drawing favorable cultural implications from Obama's political rise: "Lumping us all together," Dickerson wrote in Salon, "erases the significance of slavery and continuing racism while giving the appearance of progress." David Ehrenstein, writing in a March 2007 Los Angeles Times article, compared the cultural sources of Obama's favorable polling among whites to those of "magical negro" roles played by black actors in Hollywood movies.

This passage involves assertions that obama is not "a true black" or "black enough", and implies that a black person born to the decendants of a slave and a black person born to a father in kenya are somehow going to be discriminated against differently based soley on race. It contains, also, Barack's comment, which appears neutral to the nature fo the issue.

>"In a December 2006 Wall Street Journal editorial headlined "The Man from Nowhere," Peggy Noonan, advised "establishment" commentators to avoid becoming too quickly excited about Obama's still early political career. Echoing the inaugural address of John F. Kennedy, Obama acknowledged his youthful image, saying in an October 2007 campaign speech: "I wouldn't be here if, time and again, the torch had not been passed to a new generation.""

A "warning" is given. she "warned" the "establishment" commentators. Obama's comment doesn't directly relate to youth; only previous generations.

>"A prominent part of Obama's political image is a belief that his rhetoric and actions toward political reform are matched with a political savvy that often includes a measure of expediency. In a July 2008 The New Yorker feature article, for example, Ryan Lizza wrote: " campaigns on reforming a broken political process, yet he has always played politics by the rules as they exist, not as he would like them to exist.""

Essentially accuses Barack Obama of hypocrisy or misleading campaigning.

I'm not asserting that the quoted statements are true or false, simply that they are all either neutral, or bear negative connotations. They lack any positive cultural/political image comment, or comments cast in a positive or more neutral light.

NJMauthor (talk) 23:52, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

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