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User:Researcher99 in dispute with User:Nereocystis and others

Request by Neigel von Teighen, AMA advocate of User:Researcher99. A long-term dispute in Talk:Polygamy between both users about behaivour. The matter needs mediation soonly as the controversy the topic has. User Researcher wants to defend himself of what he and I as his official AMA advocate consider to be abusive comments and POV edits. We'd like to solve this by mediation as is the last method we've got before mediation (there has also been a RfC: Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Researcher99). A notice has been sent to the other party --Neigel von Teighen 23:14, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

I want to participate in mediation. I require the following

1. A clear statement from Researcher99 that he is willing to join in the mediation.
2. A brief statement on Talk:Polygamy allowing other users to join in the process.
3. A description of what will be covered in the mediation.

Nereocystis 18:07, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

I have done the 2nd item. --Neigel von Teighen 22:31, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

I would like to participate in the mediation. I've been watching for quite some time, and have offered assistance in the past during other heated exchanges - I am not an advocate for/against either user and would be happy to act as mediator. You guys set up the rules and I'll participate or mediate - but would like to be involved offer assistance. -Visorstuff 23:00, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Only official mediators (if you like to join the Mediation Committe or find out more about it, take a round WP:MC) can mediate, but anyone can participate if the parties agree. I reccommend you to contact them directly and/or the mediator (until now, no mediator has responded this). --Neigel von Teighen 23:08, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification - didn't notice what page I was on, I was not aware this was "official" at this point (guess I should look at the page title, huh), was hoping to assist in mediating on an "unofficial" basis. I do think that Tom AKA Hawstom did a good job previously in cooling these two off. I do think they need to forget their past interactions and be more forgiving of each other. Both are very rough toward other editors on other editing pages as well, but I think the mediation needs to focus on the current disputes. -Visorstuff 23:21, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

I am gladly following the guidance of my AMA, Neigel von Teighen. Any Mediation that does not address the abuses I have been receiving as far back as April/May is irrelevant. I am so glad to have found an AMA, whose guidance is what I am following. - Researcher 23:47, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

I want the mediation to focus on determining the content of the Polygamy article. I am willing to forget the past interactions, if we can work toward fixing the article. Nereocystis 00:51, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

I would like to participate in this mediation and work towards making the Polygamy article more presentable, which is why I joined the discussions in the first place. I have been involved in the discussion for the past month and it seems to me that the best course of action would be to start with a blank slate. I feel like the ongoing argument has only served to scare away other potential editors who don't want to me dragged into this mess.-Kewp 07:04, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

I'll reword my statement a little bit. I am interested in getting to a discussion of the article quickly. While I strongly prefer to start with a blank slate, I'll listen to the mediator's suggestion here. Researcher99 has previously refused to discuss the article without discussing the past. If the mediator believes that discussing the past is the best option, I'm willing to go along with it.Nereocystis 21:27, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

I would ask any Mediator to note that this RfM request was made by AMA, Neigel von Teighen. In it, Neigel von Teighen clearly specified the intent and basis of this RfM, saying, User Researcher wants to defend himself of what he and I as his official AMA advocate consider to be abusive comments and POV edits. For the purpose of clarity, I repeat even more concisely what I said above, Any Mediation that does not address the abuses I have been receiving as far back as April/May is irrelevant.

In fact, such an attempt to not allow those abuses to be addressed is exactly another example of one of the abuse patterns for which the Mediation is being sought: agressively circumventing existing situations already in motion into distractions and directions not approved or agreed, "running right over me." Nereocystis aggressively "ran right over me" while I was still in the middle of a known ongoing dispute in May with Ghostintheshell that was not yet finished. They did it again in July by suspiciously inciting a VfD of an anti-polygamy article I tried to create (in another resolution attempt I was making), rather than just building on the new article I had started there. They aggressively circumvented another ongoing situation in August by embracing an unapproved archiving and change in the polygamy TALK page which I did not accept that interrupted an ongoing resolution discussion we were in at that time (and yet they still continue on as if the unapproved interruptive change was valid). They do it here again on this RfM by trying to circumvent the basis and intent of this RfM request. So, such an attempt to distract from this RfM's real purpose cleverly seeks to deny and hinder addressing the real core of the problem that Mediation is being sought in the first place for. These listed examples here are just a few of the many abuse examples of why this RfM has no possibility for "just forgetting the past." That's because to do that would only serve to undermine the RfM in the first place, rendering it meaningless and solving nothing. Requesting that, though, is actually another form of repeated abuse.

The AMA, Neigel von Teighen, is the one who made this RfM request on my behalf. The way the AMA presented this RfM request is the only valid basis for the Mediation request. Anything else, regardless of how many easily-found anti-polygamists can be found and exploited to add their "support" for the abuses against me as a minority editor (for not being a hostile POV anti-polygamist), is just another attempted aggressive circumvention. It's more abuse. - Researcher 23:43, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

I would like to move this along quickly, if we can. Is there a mediator who is willing to try to resolve this problem? Nereocystis 20:44, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Nereocystis, I have sent a message to the Mediation Committee chairman (User:MacGyverMagic) to alert him that the requests are increasing and nobody answers them. I hope it works! --Neigel von Teighen 15:06, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Okay, let's actually start this mediation from about 10 days ago... If it pleases her, I would like Catherine to mediate this case. Redwolf24 (talk) 00:46, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Apparently she hasn't edited for four days. So instead of her I'll assign Andrevan. Redwolf24 (talk) 00:53, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Hi. How would you folks like to do this? I prefer IRC, but e-mail or a talk page would be fine as well. Andre (talk) 01:04, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

I don't use IRC very often, though I could give it a try. Otherwise, a talk page sounds good to me. We do have to determine what the mediation covers, of course. Nereocystis 01:09, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

I am very much looking forward to Mediation. Thank you, Andre. At this moment, I am waiting to hear back from Neigel von Teighen, my AMA who made this RfM request. They had been gone for the last weekend and are supposed to be back soon. As well, I am unfamiliar with IRC. It also appears that Nereocystis has yet to accept the AMA's Meditation Request according to the only standard by which it was made. So, it seems that I am still left waiting for just a little bit longer before we can finally get to proceeding. (But I can hardly wait.) Thank you very much for being ready to help. Researcher 19:33, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

I can't always predict when I have free time for Misplaced Pages, which is another reason for a talk page. Also, there are many people interested in the text of the polygamy article, which makes IRC more difficult to arrange. My assumption is that our Mediator will find a way to solve both of issues, the text of the polygamy article, as well as the issues which Researcher99 wants to resolve. Nereocystis 22:07, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm in favor of using a talk page, it's a better way I think, because it doesn't need to be too much time online and also, the process will be accesible for ayone, as Nereocystis proposed. Suggestions? P.D.: It seems that I'm back... ;) --Neigel von Teighen 23:25, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

It is disappointing to see that the inflammatory abuse continues. The above post by Nereocystis seeks to "run right over" again, once again trying to circumvent another current situation in process (in this case this time, this RfM), by trying to distract and re-direct its focus away from the only intent and purpose of this RfM, as requested by my AMA. The above post by Nereocystis abusively implies that I somehow don't want the article to be positively done and done in NPOV, when achieving that is exactly what I want once the real problem is resolved. The real problem is that it is Nereocystis's unceasing abuse (as this example further demonstrates) which completely prevents that from actually being achieved with the article. So, the above post by Nereocystis tries to distract this RfM with a straw man argument that does not apply. I repeat, there is only one valid basis of this RfM. If Nereocystis will not accept that, then they are refusing the Mediation and frustrating my hopes for resolution yet again. Researcher 23:54, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

I believe we agree that the text of polygamy is important. Nereocystis 00:49, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Andrevan, as you are an experienced mediator, you surely have an opinion or suggestion about how to do this mediation, because we're not agreeing as far I see... --Neigel von Teighen 22:51, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

The above quote from Nereocystis is yet another deceptive fraud. It is one of their tactics, pretending to say words that sound "gracious" while acting and doing nothing but contradiction to their words. This is one of the abuse tactics they have used before. One example to show what I mean here is back when Nereocystis sneakily sabotaged my effort and another of my attempts for resolution with my creation of the anti-polygamy article. Contrary to building that very-newly created article, they immediately sabotaged it, and asked someone to delete it on the former anti-polygamy TALK page in a post they made on 1 July 2005 17:16. (That former TALK page has been archived here. In fact, you can read that former article's entire encounter here.) Also, Nereocystis removed the link to that anti-polygamy article so that it then had no other article linking to it. (You may read the entire important chronology about that here.) Within a few days, a very suspicious user, Spatfield, who had almost never posted, and has not posted since, then used that fact to justify calling for the Vote For Deletion. After that, when Nereocystis knew that they had collected enough easily-found anti-polygamists to completely sabotage the anti-polygamy article, they then made the same kind of fake "gracious" post, pretending as if they would like to see the VfD extended another week. I immediately pointed out the lie of that fake "graciousness." When one user was starting to see the possibility of the article's value, they misunderstood and noted the fake "graciousness." I then further explained the proof of the fakeness of the lie. Anyway, the article was finally deleted the next day. So, it is necessary to realize that these kinds of fake comments are mere deceptions. Rather than actually mean that kind of "graciousness" that they say, Nereocystis's actions prove that they do not mean such "graciousness" at all. In this case here with the above quote, if they genuinely "cared" about the article being done right, they would not be undermining and trying to circumvent just about every single effort that I make to get the article to NPOV and to work in accordance with Misplaced Pages Guidelines, especially as they do not even know that much about the topic. So, it is necessary to understand that the above fake "graciousness" is another inflammatory act of abuse, as it is just another example of the deceptive tactics they employ. That Nereocystis is still using such tactics at this stage, combined with the fact that they have still not accepted the only one valid basis of this RfM, give me cause for despair that this Mediation will even occur or that they will ever stop their abuse. Researcher 19:44, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Mediation begins here

Alright, guys. Talk page it is; we can do the mediation here. So let's first establish what you would specifically like to happen as a result of this mediation. What's the best case scenario for each of you? Andre (talk) 23:27, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

I want the mediation to include a polygamy page which we agree on. Related pages, such as group marriage, polygyny, and polyandry should also be discussed. Researcher99 wants to include editing changes back to April or so. If the mediator decides that this is a good idea, I'm willing to go along with it. However, I would like to make it fairly brief. To complicate matters, I will be out of regular Internet access starting October 19 for about 3 weeks. Keeping the discussion polite seems to be difficult. Sending email to Andre and keeping the discussion private would solve the problem. However, I think that we can handle a talk page.

If we decide to discuss the past, I would like to understand our goal. Presumably, we don't want to ban anyone. Is our hope to improve behavior in the future? Perhaps we want a list of actions which were inappropriate. We need a short list of items which should be discussed. I don't want this discussion to go on forever.

I have my list of complaints about Researcher99's behavior at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Researcher99. We can start there. Researcher99 has mentioned some of his complaints there. I'm sure that he can point us to his favorite list of complaints. Nereocystis 00:37, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

If the discussion is to happen on a talk page and not via e-mail, would it be appropriate for me and others to participate, since the discussion will be partly about the content of the polygamy article? Although the main dispute is between Nereocystis and Researcher99, it doesn't seem that discussions about the content should be limited to them and a mediator. Maybe the mediation could be two-fold: a discussion about disputed user conduct, and a discussion about the content of the article(s)--Kewp 14:04, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

That sounds like a good idea. If are people are interested in the conduct, I suppose they can join in. Should we create a separate page for the discussion of the article itself? Is it really possible to separate the 2 topics? Perhaps the user conduct issue will end up discussing the content as well. Nereocystis 14:16, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Andre, as I posted in July, The problem in the current dispute is more than a simple matter regarding dispute of content. It is far much more than that. Rather, it is that Nereocystis is the problem. As I showed on this page here, when I explained how there is only one valid basis of this RfM, Nereocystis routinely abuses me with their seeking to circumvent or prevent everything I do and defiantly and simply "runs right over me" no matter what I explain or say. As all the details I provided on the outrageous Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Researcher99 (and see the TALK page there too) that Nereocystis established, there are mountains of evidence of the abuse they have heaped upon me. They have utterly destroyed the fun of my Misplaced Pages experience as they prevent me from doing anything to keep the content correct and accurate. It is important to note how, when I did not accept the unoffical "help" from Uriah923 in August because it was not going to address these important issues to really solve anything, Nereocystis then accused me of supposedly "refusing to resolve the problem." (To see how they continued on with that claim, please see the DIFF here, or the post itself on the RfC TALK Page, titled, Proof of Lies & Ganging Up against Researcher.) So, as I was explaining, they aggressively went to act as if Uriah923's "resolution" was valid, they kept posting their made up "re-write", and they created that obnoxious Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Researcher99 page against me. But now that an official AMA has initiated the only one valid basis of this RfM, they have still not accepted that. By their own definition as having accused me of supposedly "refusing to resolve" the problem, it now appears that they are the ones "refusing to resolve" the problem because they have still not accepted the only one valid basis of this RfM. It shows the abusive hypocrisy they impart, choosing to "run right over me" when I did not agree with an unworkable resolution possibility, and now trying to "run right over me" by trying to re-define the Mediation into a distraction and unnecessary direction even though it is they who have so far still refused only one valid basis of this RfM. Because the abuse is continuing even here, I admit, Andre, that I am despairing that Nereocystis will ever let the Mediation actually get started, much less let it succeed. Researcher 20:32, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Andre, now you see why we need a mediator. The first step needs to be to determine the topics covered by the mediation. Can you help us with this? I'm willing to cover past behavior, but want us to also include the text of polygamy. Researcher99 is upset at me because I have suggested adding this topic. What can we do? Nereocystis 20:46, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Guys, mediators aren't disciplinary in nature, nor do they have a say on what goes into an article and what stays out. We're here to help resolve disputes - but we do so by empowering you, the users. Rather than talking about past behavior and what has happened, please explain to me, without referencing diffs or old versions of pages, what you want to see happen going forward. There's no gain to be had in finger-pointing. Andre (talk) 20:55, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

That's where the problem lies. We have a number of areas where we disagree in the polygamy article. I would like to cover them one at a time (or all together). With your, I would like to have the two of us reach an agreement on the text. If we agree to discuss the text of the article, I'll start to list the items.

Researcher99 does not want to discuss the article itself until we discuss the past months of our behavior. I don't know what he expects to get out of the discussion, but he really wants to discuss the past behavior. This may be the only way out of the impasse. Thus, I am willing to have the discussion of behavior, if it leads to a discussion of the topic. Nereocystis 21:04, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

There are some points to clarify, in my opinion:

1. The Status Quo policy that Researcher wants to be applied is because all the relevant subsequent edits have been matter of discussion and were done without observing the Misplaced Pages consensus policy. Nereocystis might be right when he's saying that many valid edits will be lost with such revert, but I, personally speaking (Researcher may have another idea, though), propose to do a temporary draft article somewhere ("Polygamy/temp", for example) on the basis of the april version. Then, those valid edits could be added in that draft article and, when it gets ready, Polygamy should be replaced by the new version. Obviously, Nereocystis should write a list of which he considers to be valid edits and Researcher also, try to reach consensus and finish the article.
2. About discussing past behaivor: It will be helpful to do it before discussing the topic so we can see what where the mistakes made by both parties and solution that first, so the mediation can run fastly and well. --Neigel von Teighen 21:24, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Besides, Researcher99 will not move onward until we discuss past behavior. Really, he won't. I think that he will feel better if someone listens to him. Nereocystis 21:39, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

I'll listen if Researcher99 wants to talk about past behavior, but what does he expect to happen? I am not going to pass judgment on who's right and who's wrong. We're here to find a solution that's acceptable for everyone, not find who is at fault for this dispute. Andre (talk) 00:42, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps Neigel can help here, and find out what Researcher99 wants and explain it clearly and concisely. Nereocystis 06:42, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

I would really like to resolve the topic of discussion soon. Today, if possible. That may require Researcher99 to stay focused on the discussion of the topic. Keeping the responses short would be nice. Don't discuss past abuse now; that can be discussed after we determine the topic. Nereocystis 14:00, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Andre, I very much appreciate that you seek to re-empower users, which includes me. I have been dis-empowered since April, specifically because of the abuse. That is why the only one valid basis of this RfM is about abuse. It is not about content specifically, except by the consequence of the destructions to content caused by the abuse. So, yes, the content has been destroyed and needs to be fixed, but that destruction is only the result of the larger issue, the abuse. That is why it is impossible to discuss content "first" because doing so will solve nothing. At best, Nereocystis will deploy their fake "graciousness" while you are "watching," but when the "mediation" of that "content matter" is over, they will revert to the abuse because no one will be looking again. The post right above from Nereocystis provides you with overt proof right here of how they deliberarely try to "run right over me." In that post right above, they said, "Don't discuss past abuse now; that can be discussed after we determine the topic." By saying that, Nereocystis is deliberately trying to circumvent me again, trying to distract you and this RfM into "discussing" what is not actually applicable to solving the actual problem. The "topic" does not need to "be determined," as Nereocystis sneakily tries to distract, because the topic of this Mediation has already been determined by the original RfM request. It is about abuse. The Mediation request is about stopping their abuse, so that I can be empowered and may once again enjoy Misplaced Pages in adding NPOV content with my topical research. Nereocystis knows that and is still trying to "run right over me" by trying to distract attention away from the real problem, their abuse. Their "let's discuss content" is only a tactic to distract you and "run right over me." It is not about any supposed sincerity for any real content issues. As I have said many times, the only one valid basis of this RfM is about the abuse of Nereocystis "running right over me," circumventing just about everything I do, due to their hostile anti-polygamy POV agenda. The post right above from Nereocystis has once again proven why this RfM was made in the first place, that they "run right over me" in their abuse. It shows you that I am not trying to be "stuck on the past." Instead, it shows how the pattern of abuse continues over and over again, even up to the very last post they made. Until that abuse is dealt with, it will only continue. I simply want the abuse to stop, Misplaced Pages Guidelines (such as STATUS QUO) followed, and no more "running right over me." Maybe that will require Nereocystis being banned, I do not know. But "debating content" with a deliberate, repeat abuser who is not held accountable is an unproductive waste of all of our time. That is why there is only one valid basis of this RfM. I am hoping you are able to help us in Mediating that. Thanks for wanting to empower even me. Researcher 20:03, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Andre, we need a really active mediator here. This isn't going anywhere.

I suggest that we drop the talk page while we are discussing the scope of the mediation. Perhaps each of us can email the mediator, without sending the email to each other. Most of the Researcher99's time is spent responding to my supposed abuse, and not answering questions from either Andre or myself.

Help. We need direction, and we need to decide on the scope, as soon as possible. Nereocystis 20:56, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

As Andrevan said in his last post , "I am not going to pass judgment on who's right and who's wrong. We're here to find a solution that's acceptable for everyone, not find who is at fault for this dispute."

It doesn't matter how many times Researcher99 repeats this tired line: "there is only one valid basis for this dispute," the fact is that Researcher99 has no actual desire for mediation, because he has never assumed and probably will never assume good faith WP:AGF on the part of other users who genuinely want to improve the article and wikipedia in general. Researcher99's only contributions to wikipedia have been on the polygamy and occasionally group marriage articles. He has held them hostage for months, cluttering the talk pages with increasingly long, repetitive posts filled with wild accusations (for example, ) and a few incredibly abusive statements (most notably ( when Researcher99, this time, was refusing mediation). Now Researcher 99 is suggesting that Nereocystis be banned. . I'm not sure what is the point of this post, because I know that Andrevan said that "we are not here to find who is at fault for this dispute." However, I'm pretty sure that this mediation will end up like the other informal mediations involving Researcher99 in the past, and I think this is quite clear from his posts, namely, he is not interested in genuinely resolving this issue with other users as he has made it clear that he does not want to discuss the contents of the polygamy article in this mediation. My goal here is not to create additional problems in this already difficult situation, but Researcher99's disingenuous posts are nothing but counterproductive. I'm sorry about the length of this post, I am very frustrated about this entire issue. thanks --Kewp 04:42, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

There are 2 questions for Researcher99:

1. As Andre asked: What does Researcher99 expect to happen?
2. Will Researcher99 refused to participate in the mediation if it includes a discussion of the content of polygamy?

Nereocystis 14:12, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Researcher99, I don't think you understand how mediation works and what it does. If you're interested in banning users or holding them accountable for their past actions, please seek arbitration instead. I do not have the authority to do this in the context of a mediation. Please think about what you want to happen. What would you like Nereocystis to change about his behavior? What specifically should be the outcome of all our deliberation? Andre (talk) 16:06, 1 October 2005 (UTC)