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If only known for his relationship with Byron (and even not among Byron's well-known relationships), then he is not notable. This is not sufficient for including in an encyclopedia. There are many famous people who have relationships with others, homosexual or otherwise. We don't need an article for everyone of those non-famous people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nocturnalsleeper (talk • contribs) 02:06, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

The notability criteria doesn't include the issues for which you removed the speedy delete tag. Context and refs do not relate to notability. Notability from what I can tell is stuff like is this person important enough to have his own encyclopaedia article. Saying he's a relative by marriage to an assistant of Lord Elgin and that he was one of Byron's lovers (and not even the famous or infamous ones like Lamb). Just being a lover is not notable. Did he influence Byron's writing in a meaningful way? Did he have an impact on culture or history? Just mentioning him in the Byron article should be sufficient. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nocturnalsleeper (talk • contribs) 16:07, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I am sure a fairly full account of his life can be written from the various bios on Byron--and possibly from t he fictional treatments of this also. The probability of the later makes al l the more reason for keeping. DGG (talk) 02:59, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Incorrect use of sources

• This diff claims "Nicolò Giraud (1795-?) is known for being the pederastic beloved of Lord Byron at the age of 15 or 16." - Drummond Bone, The Cambridge Companion to Byron p.111

pp. 111-112 actually states: "Byron facetiously declared that he would contribute only a single chapter to the book, on 'the state of morals and a further treatise on the same to be entitled "Sodomy simplified or Paederasty proved to be praiseworthy from ancient authors and modern practice"' (BLJ, 1, 208). Although Byron's 'chapter' never materialised, remarks in his correspondence from the Levant often read like a series of 'queer' footnotes to Hobhouse's travelogue, in which the celebrated predilection for homosexuality amongst Albanians, Greeks, and Turks is tersely glossed over during a discussion of Albanian misogyny. Despite the fact that Byron waited until the disapproving Hobhouse left for England efore cultivating his boy lovers, Eustathios Georgious and Nicolo Giraud, his interest in Levantine homosexuality was not just the frisson of the sexual tourist, but an integral part of his interest in comparing Eastern and Western manners."

As you can see, there is no "pederastic beloved" used and no "known for being" used.

• "As a result of their copious couplings, the boy developed an anal rupture"

As I have demonstrated from sources, this was a rumor and yet presented as fact. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:20, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

You seem to be unaware of what you are saying. In your own quotation above, you confirm that the source I used identifies Giraud as his boy lover. That makes him his pederastic beloved. If you are not aware of what pederasty is, why do you interfere in this article?

And, now that you have called me a vandal and I have called you a censor, by what rights do you presume to delete the relevant category of "History of pederasty" when this person is discussed in the literature as Byron's pederastic beloved?! Who are you to stand in the way of the reader who is interested in past events related to pederasty and say, "No, you shall not know about this because I have decided that by my standards this is not pederastic enough!"

Why don't you get out of the way and let people decide for themselves, instead of shoving your uninvited and uninformed opinions down their throats? Since when is Misplaced Pages an authoritarian playground? Haiduc (talk) 03:37, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

He shows himself perfectly capable of printing the word pederast. He does not. Therefore, you are miss-attributing quotes and applying original research, which is one of the worse things you can do in an encyclopedia. Furthermore, your "category" is not a real category as it does not have proper determiners and criteria for acceptance. You cannot claim that since two people speculated that Byron might have been in a pederastic relationship that it was true, nor can you say that Giraud is a pederast. You don't seem to know what pederasty is, and that is why you are unable to come up with a real definition of it, but still add it to as many articles as you possibly can with vague assertions. Ottava Rima (talk) 05:20, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Homophobic monomania rules the day. I am not surprised that you should consider the discussion of a personage's pederasty as a smear. There are some who think calling someone a jew is a smear. And just as that posture categorizes them, your position categorizes you as a homophobe. Your "denunciation" thus reveals you as a bona fide member of this fag bashing crowd that ideologically purges the documentation of pederasty, a homosexual subtopic, from Misplaced Pages. Why do you not delete the LGBT tag at the head of this page, while you are at it? What is it doing here if not confirming that we are discussing homosexuality between a man and a boy???

You also fail to understand that a category on the history of pederasty does not only include "proven pederasts" but actually encompasses ALL discussions of pederasty in history. This is not an ecclesiastical court documenting confirmed sinners for future immolation, but an academic category in which we gather items of interest to the topic. Your judgmental approach is out of place here, this is not junior high school nor some fundamentalist backwater. And do us all a favor and try to correct your previous less-than-intelligible post, so that we may be sure of what it is you are trying to say. Haiduc (talk) 11:17, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Both of you, cut it out. There is plenty to discuss here without calling each other names, and both of you have been warned about this behaviour in the past. Stick to discussing the content and the references used to support the content without speculating on each other's motivations. Having worked with each of you before, I am certain that both of you are incorrect in your assertions about the other. If you cannot support your argument without calling your colleague names, then you probably don't have a good enough argument to stand alone. I'm going to link this post to each of your user talk pages, and ask you to refactor the personalised comments. Continued behaviour along the lines I see above will be considered disruption rather than commentary, and will be treated as such. Risker (talk) 14:17, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

(ec)Might I suggest three things:

1. Chill? The comments above border on personal attacks. Take a breath before responding, and talk about content, not other editors.
2. There are plenty of sources that discuss the pederastic relationship between Byron and Giraud. I can only read a snippet of the first one through Google Books, but the second two are clear. I suggest adding one or more of these as refs and re-adding the appropriate categories:

• Crompton, Louis, Byron and Greek Love: Homophobia in 19th-century England, Gay Men's Press year=1998, p. 238, ISBN 0854492631 {{citation}}: Missing pipe in: |publisher= (help)
• Aldrich, Robert (1993), The Seduction of the Mediterranean: Writing, Art, and Homosexual Fantasy, Routledge, p. 72-73, ISBN 0415093120
• Haggerty, George E. (2000), Gay Histories and Cultures: An Encyclopedia, Taylor & Francis, p. 154-5, ISBN 0815318804

1. It sounds like the description of the Category:History of pederasty needs some clarification.

-- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 14:25, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Satyr, most of those sources are seen by actual literary critics and biographers as fringe sources, single purpose, and wrong. As you can see from most of the critics on the page, they state that there is not enough information to actually go off of to do anything more than wildly speculation. Furthermore, the term "pederasty" used by them is quite different, and pederasty is not the same as homosexual. The term "pederasty" was used by Byron to talk about young child, but most of those that Byron was ever involved with, if you were to say that there was actual sex, were above the 16, which at the time "legal minors" but still viewed as adults, failing the definition of pederasty. Was Giraud gay? No one knows. Was there a possibility that he was emotionally attached to Byron? A strong one. Is there a possibility that Giraud had a sexual relationship with him? Yes. Is there the ability to confirm either of these, let alone his actual age and apply a 20th century term that was different than Byron's use of it back onto Giraud (not Byron, mind you)? No. Giraud was not a pederast. He is not important to the "history" of pederasty. And there is no definition that can acceptably include him into the term. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:11, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Ottava Rime, perhaps you could address each source if you feel they aren't appropriate? Words like "most of those" and "most of the critics" mean there's some weasel wording going on. Since I know I've seen Crompton and Aldrich used as reliable sources on various articles, I'm reluctant to put much stock in the statement that they are wrong unless you fully address the source directly rather than painting with a broad brush. Furthermore, if a reliable source calls their relationship pederastic, Misplaced Pages (which relies on what sources say) can and should call the relationship pederastic. If you're arguing that the definition of "Pederasty" is different today than it was in 1795, this is not the place to do it. Here we need to report what reliable third-party sources have said, not change or make up our own definitions. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 18:23, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

All of the sources are addressing each other on the main page. If one source says that a couple is pederastic, it does not mean that the couple is pederastic. There is a difference between knowing something and having one person claiming something, especially when there isn't a solid, academic definition used. And Satyr, I find it troubling that you claim that there are "weasel words" when there is only one phrase that could be construed as it, "Many critics disagree with the speculation over Giraud's and Byron's relationship", which is followed by a list of critics that disagree. I would suggest you rereading the page and then you can see the academic argument. Three recent critics already pointed out that the only critics who have made claims about pederasty have based their claims on possibly unsupportable ideas, or are one sided and biased. There is literally no evidence to make a certain claim about the relationship that Giraud and Byron had, especially without knowing the exact age of Giraud, which makes it impossible for someone to claim that it was pederastic and this has been pointed out by many important critics who are cited on the page. It is speculation, and the category is not "speculative pederastic couples". I feel that you completely misconstrued the argument, and insinuated as if there was original research being performed by anyone besides Haiduc, which is clearly not the case. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:31, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I'll try to be more specific. If you have a problem with a source, would you describe which one and why? -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 19:01, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't have any problem with any source. I have a problem with Haiduc taking "love" and "boy", especially when boy is vague and without an age, to mean "pederast", when the definition of pederast is far more specific. I also find it biased to label someone as part of a pederastic relationship when there is dispute as to the nature of the relationship, and therefore completely one sided. I further find it inappropriate to apply a label to a set of people without first establishing a rigorous definition, as such a loose term with an obvious poor interpretation in many circles, including hetero or homosexual circles, could be deemed as a smear against certain figures. The use of the term also does not differentiate between the sexual and non-sexual definitions of the term. Finally, using the term as a label generalizes and fails to discuss the actual nuances and information on the relationship. The section now discusses the many, many possibilities. It would be fine if this was put in a standard LGBT category based on its focus on within the "queer theory"/homosexual studies branch of cultural criticism in Literary criticism, which is why Giraud became an important figure. He represented one of many idealized male youths in Byron's life that blends poetic desire, experience within nature, and masculine virility and has been used to explain the manifestation of Byron's male longings as one aspect in his very complex sexual/romantic understanding. Byron is an extremely complex figure, literarily and relationship, and his constant adoration of masculine figures (young and old), frequent indulgence in prostitution, high levels of intimacy within a large circle of friends that may or may not have led to sexual experiences, and even a pseudo-incestual encounter with a half-sister that may or may not (according to the females in Byron's life, definitely did) have led to the birth of Elizabeth Medora Leigh. He is an extremely controversial figure and people will claim many extremes about him. It is not Misplaced Pages's duty to pick a side, but to simply explain the complex arguments that have developed over 170 years and leave it at that. Yes, there are probably some arguments missing, but on both sides. I have not yet put up the biggest Byron biographers, but I also ignored some of the more general "queer theorists". I tended to only put the ones who particularly deal with the controversial details, instead of those who gloss over and just make a claim without pointing to particular evidence. I feel that the argument over specific details is the most important to discuss, so people can make up their own mind over how to interpret which specific aspect. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:01, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I fail to see how the use of the Category:History of pederasty doesn't apply to Giraud. As you say, "Giraud represents one of the many male youths in Byron's life." And "Giraud has been used to explain the manifestation of Byron's male longings." It doesn't matter whether they had sex or not, we can point to many sources that say they had a strong relationship, and we can point to many sources that discuss whether or not it was pederastic. That right there is grounds for including the article in the History of pederasty. That does not indicate that their relationship was pederastic - simply that the relationship is part of the history of pederasty. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 21:59, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

":I fail to see how the use of the Category:History of pederasty doesn't apply to Giraud. " Really? Then where is Giraud a pederast? Where is the proof that there was a pederastic relationship? Where is the proof that his relationship was influential in the history of pederasty? To say that this one person who has only been talked about in the minority, without any full biography, could be important to the history of pederasty, a term which is viewed as immoral and even criminal by many simply because it was suggested by a minority of critics that he could have been involved with an older man, is really inappropriate. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:10, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

First of all, censoring an article because some people might consider it immoral or criminal is not a factor. Second, the discussion you and I (and the several sources in the article) are having about the possibility of a pederastic relationship is grounds enough. Third, being in the History of pederasty category, as I said, does not imply that they were in a pederastic relationship, but rather that their relationship is obviously interesting from that point of view. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 22:26, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

You can throw out the term "censoring" all you want, but I am the one that actually put in the nuances about his relationship. It is inappropriate to claim that this figure represents anything of historical importance, especially with a category that is completely inappropriate as it lacks clear inclusion standards or even a basic definition. I feel that your argument lacks any merit because you resorted to claims of censorship and that you will not get any further response from me on the issue, because I have bent over backwards providing a neutral point of view on this article, which includes the whole perspective, and it is completely inappropriate for you or Haiduc to push a completely vague and one sided perspective into the article. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:35, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Are you seriously claiming "It is inappropriate to claim that this figure represents anything of historical importance"? That statement invalidates everything in the article, including that it belongs in the encyclopedia!

Once again, if you have an issue with the definition of pederasty, this is not the place to discuss it. If you have an issue with the standards of inclusion for Category:History of pederasty, this is not the place to discuss it.

As it stands, WP:CONSENSUS says that there are at least two editors that have provided reliable sources to back up their claim that the category is pertinent. Please provide any sources that say Giraud is not related to the history of pederasty? Or perhaps we should bring in a WP:3O? -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 03:20, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

"That statement invalidates everything in the article, including that it belongs in the encyclopedia!" Notability does not mean historically important. Notability means that he is notable. He is not "ground changing" in the history of "pederasty" nor is there any argument that can be made. I don't need to provide any sources that he is not important to it, because there are no sources to say he is, and you must prove that he is important to pederasty, which has not happened. He is notable for his relationship with Byron which a minority of scholars label as pederasty, which negates any claims that can be made. Ottava Rima (talk) 13:40, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Would you prefer the article to be in the Category:Pederasty? That makes less sense to me. Since Byron is a pretty important historical figure (please don't make me source that), and since Giraud is his lover (in whatever sense of the word you choose, there are several sources that agree on that), *that* indicates membership in the category. Furthermore, there are references that support the "importance" argument - for example "Friendship with particular boys thus inspired some of Byron's poems" (Aldrich, p. 74)

Or try this (rather long) quotation about pederasty and how Byron's love interests affected England:

Byron's sexuality itself became the subject of legend. Some years after his death, a poem entitled Don Leon was ascribed to Byron when it was published in 1866. Although quite definitely a fake, the poem purports to be a catalogue of Byron's homosexual interests - with references to the Greeks and classical literature, the attractions of foreighn climes and clandestine loves, the affairs with Edlestone and Giraud, who are identified by name, and an eloquent plea for law reform and the emancipation of homosexuals in England. Even in a forged work, therefore, Byron had become a symbol for a particular kind of love in English letters and a basis for appeals to change the laws which made it opportune for men like him to seek homosexual satisfaction overseas. (Aldrich, p. 74)

Since I see you've recently added some info about the Don Leon poem, maybe there is more about how it (and Giraud) have contributed to the history of Pederasty? -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 15:19, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

1. Giraud is not a pederast, nor can anyone claim such. 2. The minority have ever used the term pederast within the same work that Giraud is mentioned. 3. His age and relationship with Byron are unknown. 4. Little is known about Giraud, so there is no ability to claim he can represent any kind of important figure in any kind of movement, let alone pederasty. 5. Your continued actions are extremely tendentious, represent the pushing of a minority opinion, and are completely unscholarly. 6. Your quote from Aldrich is factually inaccurate, as it was not Byron, nor ascribed to Byron, but to Colman, and it is a myth that it was ascribed to Byron. 7. The Don Leon poem is not about pederasty, but a satire that mocks society for criticizing Byron over his failed marriage and is not factual. It is also, as a poem, fiction, which invalidates it from being used as any kind of historical evidence. 8. Not only have you attempted to use blatantly incorrect sources, you are pushing a completely POV and controversial view point in a manner that is completely unbecoming and I would recommend your questionable actions, along with Haiduc's, to be put up in AN or AN/I for review, because this disturbing trend is utterly destructive to any kind of integrity that Misplaced Pages would seek to claim as an encyclopedia. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:50, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't want to take part in any argument but if I may put in my 2 cents. First, it's amazing how this article has changed over the last few hours! Without reading the pages and pages and pages you guys have said so far except the last few entries, I think that there would be no concensus because it would be pretty even with Ottava, me and Nandasuka being against the category and SatyrTN and Haiduc for it. But it doesn't matter what we think because based on the writers Ottava included as reference in the article even they can't agree. I think it would be pushing the point to put in the category. It would be like putting the category "wife-murderers" for O.J. Simpson. Theres probably a better example but I can't think of it. I think as long as both sides are represented in the article and presented validly from good and accurate sources then everyone should be happy. Just my 2 cents here.--Costagne (talk) 03:41, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

It is a pity that people with the intelligence of some of the contributors to this article are so invested in battling the association with pederasty. And it is a pity that the tool used for this campaign is an attack on homosexual relations between men and youths, relations which range the gamut from chaste to carnal and from legal to illegal. But the essence of this attack is precisely a denial of that reality, and an attempt to impose a reductionist (and false) image of pederasty. It is an image that is fundamentally denigrating of same sex relations between males, and that flies in the face of history as well as modern understanding.

Over the weekend I gathered some more information, which I posted at the pederasty article. It shows in crystal-clear fashion that 1. the reductionist definition of pederasty (buggering children) is not the only one presented in dictionaries (as if we were somehow obligated to genuflect to mere dictionaries, which we are not) and 2. that definition is regarded as incorrect by at least two prominent sexologists. Notwithstanding all that, multiple definitions of a polysemic term in no way give us an excuse to not examine and document it, in ALL its aspects. Haiduc (talk) 11:23, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

You make interesting points but the text that you point out if anything gives us reason for otherwise. What I mean is you have the biggest British English and American English dictionaries telling you that it is a sexual relationship. Then you have two big sexologists acknowledge that this is the common definition but they personally disagree. By doing so they are admitting that their personal opinion is different than the mainstream definition. You can have two big people in a field disagree with the mainstream opinion, which I bet happens a lot, but that doesn't mean it overturns the main opinion.--Costagne (talk) 12:47, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

"is an attack on homosexual relations between men and youths" Haiduc, what are you even arguing here? That Pederasty should be seen as an acceptable practice, even though by definition it is illegal? Are you seriously trying to say that the illegal act of pedophilia, i.e. sex with an underaged child should be seen as normal and acceptable on Misplaced Pages? Ottava Rima (talk) 13:40, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Your two posts are an exercise in power. Not in truth. THAT is the main point. Haiduc (talk) 22:50, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Truth? Where is the proof of age? Proof of relationship? Proof that he is important in the history of a topic that you have not given clear definitions for? You have no right to talk about truth when you haven't bothered to address these questions. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:56, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Historians do not work with proof. They work with texts. The texts we have, the information on relationship we have, the age we have, and pederasty has been exhaustively defined. All you are offering is obstructionism, and your tool is force, as anyone can see who can see through your posts. Haiduc (talk) 23:19, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

No one has misunderstood. You made it clear that you are trying to make pederasty normalized and are using Misplaced Pages to achieve this ends. This is POV pushing of the worse kind, especially when you are trying to hide the fact that pederasty deals with children and pedophilia by blurring the definition to try and make it seem acceptable. Not only that, you are trying to further make it seem like common practice by branding as many biographies as possible as related to pederasty without any hard evidence to back up the assertions. And historians speculate all the time. People get paid to publish opinions and push agendas. Your assertion above is extremely dishonest. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:30, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Your war on pederasty, and repeated insertion of child sex themes where they do not belong are YOUR affair, my dear boy, not ours. They begin and end with you, and do not interest me or anyone else here. They will not be resolved in Misplaced Pages or on the internet. You will have to address these matters elsewhere, preferably not in public. Good luck. Haiduc (talk) 23:45, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Haiduc, your actions are completely unfit for an encyclopedia. I have already provided a lot of evidence that says that pederasty is having anal sex with male children. The fact that you keep trying to justify it as a normal act is not what Misplaced Pages is for. I would suggest that you move onto an encyclopedia that is more accepting of promoting illegal activities instead of pushing your POV here. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:07, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

My dear friend, you are engaged in a culture war which is inappropriate here. The "definition" that you are touting is one of many, and has nothing to do with what we are discussing here (Byron possibly excepted, since he did seem to get rather intimate with NG). This is not about Haiduc, it is not even about pederasty. It is about history. Drop you campaign, please. And as far as me trying to "justify" something or other, give me a break. I am documenting historical events and texts, with the purpose of informing not "justifying." But I at least honor the spirit of Misplaced Pages, which is to make information free. You seem to be worshipping some other god, that wants to cover up information. Haiduc (talk) 00:30, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

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